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Red Hat Certification Program For Education
Frank Caviggia writes "The Inquirer has a story up about Red Hat providing educational institutions with the ability to certify students as Red Hat Certified Technicians (RHCT) and Red Hat Certified Engineers (RCHE) how this will relate to Microsoft's MSCE program. You can find the story here. Red Hat has more information on the program here."
So certification involves actually educating people now?
Toronto-area transit rider? Rate your ride.
OHavent we learned that people who get certs are just people who think they are computer geeks? I meean look at how well the MCSE has worked, Dont get me wrong, I think certs for some people can be good but over all they need to be better with more real world questions. And when they start giving out Certified C++ Expert I will be in line to get one But I think it is over rated to h8ave a Cert. Especially since 45% of the people with certs i know are Paper Certified.... Why start kids out like this? Let them choose for them selves!
---
They want to create a certification comparable to the MSCE? Gee... then we'll have have all these people with just a RHCT or RCHE admining linux boxes, and we'll have as many problems (DDOS zombies, etc.) as with the MCSEs admining windows boxes.
Certifications will help, but then people will think that that certification is _all_ that is needed to admin a linux box.
Will this turn into the same repetetive cash cow that the MCSE is? Will certified engineers have to get a new certification on every new release of the kernel? what about major releases?
I hope they realize that one of the major flaws with microsoft's certification is the necessity to get re-certified when a poorly-done ripoff of the previous operating system is released.
--My other sig is a ferrari.
I dont know about u guys, but I find "Microsoft certified engineer" FUNNY :)
So, now we can be formally trained to use open source technology. So, how many people will use this? Anyone?
"Gharbad no Hurt!" -Gharbad
A useless Red Hat certification!
Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate. Ex-O'Reilly/MIT employee, now a full-time Google employee.
It's funny. Laugh.
Every cloud has a silver lining (except for the mushroom shaped ones, which have a lining of Iridium & Strontium 90)
Maybe Microsoft developed a new course, because last time I checked it was "MCSE". It stands for Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer in case you were wondering.
My doctor told me I was certifiable, so I guess RHCE or RHCT is right up my alley!
The futexes are also cursed!
I hate be the cynical one here, but could this
be an invitation to a trademark lawsuit from
Microsoft?
MSCE, I think, is trademarked by Microsoft.
RHCE, Red Hat's certification acronym seems
almost uncomfortably close to RHCE.
Microsoft attempted to sue Lindows because it
'could be confused' with Windows. They did not
succeed, but this showed that they are at least
willing to try.
Not that I am pro-Microsoft, but I am also pro
being careful and not letting them get a change
to bleed someone on the spike of litigation.
Cleara
Now all the wagon jumping paper tigers that swamped the IT world can move to Linux.
A large part of the state of job opportunities in the tech sector are the 5000 absolutely unqualified applicants for every job.
Pointy haired bosses don't know a good coder from a hole in the ground, so they hire the janitor-cum-MCP with the $20,000 salary expectation.
There are a few places left that look for someone who can do the job, and do it well, and don't give a hoot about alphabet soup and buzzwords in the resume.. I'm fortunate enough to have found one of them.
I should probably get back to work, I've wasted too much time here today.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Indeed, they look almost exactly the same. It's uncanny!
i think the poster ment RHCE...
Actually, its MCSE. Not a huge difference, but still different. Either way, I don't think any judge would ever find "RedHat Certified Engineer" similar to "Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer." Seems a bit of a stretch.
It means that there will now be a flood of "Paper RHCEs" just as was the case with the MCSEs. But there will be a big difference.
The difference will be that few Slashdotters will ridicule the RHCEs as they have done the MCSEs. And, the Slashdotters that do ridicule them will be classified as jealous of the certification, since they do not have one. Then they will be modded down to minus one, much as I suspect this post will be.
5 -- Make a hat pattern out of the multiple choice fields
4 -- Copy off the smelly guy with the dandruff-coated black tee shirt
3 -- Bribe the proctor of the exam with a lunch that's "free as in beer"
2 -- emacs &... Edit... Query Replace... "MCSE, Red Hat Certified"
1 -- Insist on using the new open source Test Answer Development (TAD) model championed by Bruce Perens
Don't forget *nix.org either
Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate. Ex-O'Reilly/MIT employee, now a full-time Google employee.
That universities learn from the free software movement that knowledge is something that they can generate. I dont see whatsoever any value in giving any kind of certification to a student that is not involved in important admin tasks in a real datacenter. Come on, she'll go into the cert, finish it. Oh cool its friday! Go to a rave and kill most the synaptic connections given by the cert in the first two hours. With some luck (and here is the upside), our very hypothetical geek will get laid and on and on and on until they finish their degree....
Certs provide no value to kids in school. Abstract math, the study of algorithms, the understanding of the engeneering process behinf organizations like IETF, W3C do provide it....quit loosing time colleges, educate ppl. Certs are for lame professionals that lost the next wave (which is most of us, at some point anyway).
NO SIG
You guys can bash certifications left and right, but to a new graduate desperately looking for a job, they can prove useful. The job market is so bad at the moment that recent college graduates applying for entry-level positions are competing with people that have decades of experience. If having "RHCT" or "RCHE" on your resume can help, it's worth investing a couple of hundred bucks into it.
Being a CS student at a university, almost every semester we have to write a program or more on a linux server (I believe they are running RH 7.2 or 7.3). Thats for the first few CS classes, then in the upperclassmen classes, the servers are handled more for a few classes. Namely Network Security. Just think, if the students who took network security, also were RedHat certified, that would have a big impact on resumes. Looking at the description, I can see where this certification could come in handy for me or other CS students. I would take the class, if my university offered it. I could see that if CS took this certification, a job would almost be guarrenteed.
RedHat == Microsoft Jr.
thats like saying that roosevelt == hitler Jr.
xao
xao
http://TheHillforum.hopto.org
MCSE = Must Consult Someone with Experience!
.. thats all we need. Sure there will be a million more red hat certified's out there .. But - just like the MCSE over time - the cert will be watered down, and virtually meaningless (just like the MCSE is now). Any ass can regurgitate a book. Educational institutions that cram a book into your head over 2 weeks, then make you pick your favorite answer on a multiple guess test, and charge outrageous prices -- Just to flood the market with non-thinking drones ... yay. fucking great.
Great
Nice one
Certification has pluses and minuses for employees and employers alike, the real winners turn out to be the Cerifying organization. So, why not? Let's start "Billy The Mountain's Certified Information Technology Professional" program. "What, you say you're not BTMCITP? Gedowwdahea!"
Step 1. We'll charge $400 a pop, with a $50 annual maint. fee
Step 2. ????
Step 3. Marvel at how it's just like were printing our own money.
BTM
That was the turning point of my life--I went from negative zero to positive zero.
I thought engineering was something you had to go to college for, not some 'school' in a strip mall that does computer 'certs'.
And wasn't CNE (Certified Novell Engineer) certification around before the MCSE?
Boy, I wish I could get the narrow minded computer guru's at my High School to have this course! Oh no! Lets stick with the Windows 98 licensing trap!
THese are all people who think WIndows98 is the last product MS released. Bah.
clearly, you have a dizzying intellect..
xao
xao
http://TheHillforum.hopto.org
I'm a volunteer teacher for the NPO Techs program in Chicago and I'd be estatic if this means RedHat will be making their training material available outside of their programs. I've taken a couple of their classes, and they were great, with lots of low-level detail. My biggest gripe was the training materials weren't published under any sort of open documentation license. This has forced me to reinvent the wheel for the classes I've been teaching. I sought permission to make copies of course materials for non-profit purposes, but was rebuffed by beuracracy. I really don't care if my students are going to be official RHCT or RHCE so long as they come out of the course better equiped than they went in. If RedHat really cares about linux in education, they should make their teaching materials as free as their OS.
Theres an interesting comaprison between the benfefits that Red Hat perceives that can be gained through taking their course and Microsofts idea of the benefits you get for its MCSE.
Its an interesting contrast of philosophys, Red Hat stresses its IT benefits, whereas Microsoft seems to stress the special offers that come free with the course.
Apparently you get a free badge with the Microsoft cereal, I think I know which one I'm going to be buying.
but only if I get one of those neato red hats.
I worked as a network admin and then studied hard to get my CCNA. Right now it is almost worthless because of all the paperCCNAs out there who spent a week in a cert mill memorizing acronyms. Red Hat's approach, however is like Cisco's better program forces a student to take several classes over the course of a year not a week and we get people who may acctually be qualified. If we don't do it like this we will get Mom and Dad shelling out money to send their kid to (insert cert mill) for a few grand where they will leave with no skill.
What's interesting to me is that if somebody fails the RHCE exam but gets all the RHCT portions of the RHCE exam correct, they still don't earn an RHCT. Red Hat hasn't quite figured this one out yet. I asked this question during one of RH's webcast presentations, and they said they didn't have plans at that time for implementing a "partial credit" solution.
Although I can see how in a given real-world scenario, one would expect an RHCE to perform a longer list of tasks in a given time frame (be they troubleshooting, installation, service configuration, etc.) than an RHCT, it still doesn't make sense to me why one wouldn't be able to walk away with at least the RHCT if they had performed well enough to have passed the RHCT exam. Instead, they would have to pay more to take the RHCT exam separately.
I'm not sure why this issue is important to me, except that I think it would be neat to earn the RHCE. I can't think of any other IT certs that employ any kind of partial credit system.
"The cup... the drop... it's a YES!"
A person with a BSCS may be able to program a 2000 line program, but give them a problem to fix on a 200,000 program and they are dead.
All a degree or certification does is state that the person has taken course work and exams that show they they knew some knowledge at some point. It is not an end-all-be-all determination of skill. It is only one aspect to look at when determining a persons ability.
Fight Spammers!
A quick google search on "engineer certification illegal microsoft" turns this up as the first hit:
A general rule, though, is that one must hold a PE to legally represent themselves as engaged in practice of "professional engineering". (Some states take it as far as making it illegal to use the word "Engineering" in the name of a company unless a PE is one of the principals. That sounds pretty strong, but it's not very well known, and can only be addressed after someone files a complaint about it with that state's Board of Registration for Professional Engineers.)
(1) a four-year engineering degree in a program approved by the state engineering licensure board, (2) four years of qualifying engineering experience, and who successfully completes (3) the eight-hour Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) Examination, and (4) the eight- hour Principles and Practice of Engineering (PE) Examination will be licensed as a professional engineer.
In Canada, you can't use the term "engineer" unless you have an engineering degree. The only exceptions are for train engineers, forestry engineers, and a few others. Software Enginner IS NOT a permitted term. I've met w. the local governing body to discuss this last year.
Having said that, anyone paying $$$ thinking that having an "engineering cert" from RH or MS is fucking brain-dead anyway, and deserves to lose their money and their time.
First, we can consider it to be a learning opportunity, which it isn't. It's an opportunity to be brainwashed and turned into a mindless employee. That is, of course, assuming it goes Microsoft's route.
But, we can see this as an opportunity to get a title that will help you get a job, where you can do some real learning. Way I see it, if you take the cert, get a job, and study a LOT, you can actually get somewhere. And by somewhere, I don't mean a trailer. I mean SOMEWHERE!
Of course, being the everything-hater I am, I have to say that the idea of an open-source cert is sort of weird. When I say weird, I mean extremely ugly. That's just a pet peeve of mine.
"I see Windows users..."
it involves saying they have been educated.
Anyone want to become an FECE for only $20? Inquire here.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
Get the fuck out of here. Mods are horrendous.
Good thing, now the clueless newbies will have a leg up on working with FreeBSD
There was a time when being an MCP/MSCE *actually* was worthwhile. Before every fly-by-night tech education company realized they could make a buck off the courseware and flooded the market with paper-cert toting meta-geeks. I see this as a good thing. Anything that RH does to expand awareness of its products ultimately helps the whole OSS & FSF idealogies through a trickle down effect.
Certifications like the CompTIA certs do not carry much value to techies, but may mean alot to that HR rep.
If you don't have the right alphabet soup at the top of your resume, that HR person may very well throw away your resume, even if you have years of experience.
That said, I don't have a certification, and I still don't have a job after looking since November. I'm looking into getting a RHCE and CompTIA to help me get past the HR level.
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
In the article they say:
Red Hat hasn't stated how much it would cost per student to run a course but, given that the schools and colleges can give students free copies of Linux, the cost is likely to be low.
But I don't think that the cost of the course will be really related to the cost of the software. That's like saying the cost of tuition at a college is directly related to the price of the textbooks. The real cost is paying smart, trained teachers who can push the information into students' heads.
I don't want to be here.
My high school offered a two year course that would allow the students to get cisco certification. Unfortuanatly the instructor found a different job (better pay now that he had cisco certification, paid for by the school) after the first year, so we ended up with a dumbass history teacher that thought he was a computer genius for the second year.
+5 insightful
I've been considering the RHCE (To get past the the HR People who think that it means something), but have been really turned off by the associated costs.
The RHCE is super expensive: $2500 for the "review classes" where you try to cram information into your poor brain over a 5 day period (You will lose 95% of this knowledge in less then a week), and then $700 for the tests.
I'm hoping that as RedHat expands these classes to other schools, the price of the review class may decrease, and other schedules may be offered. I'd be happy with 1-2 classes per week with 3-4 hou0rs per session for 5 weeks or so, much easier to remember that way.
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
...if linux is going to make it in major corporations. It's a quick, easy way for lazy managers to determine employee performance. Just like linux needs office software optimised for making Lovely Documents containing data that could be easier read/manipulated in .txt files. There's a whole class of people who don't do any useful work beyond making sure the rest of us do, and as silly as it sounds Microsoft makes it easier for them to do this. To summarize: Managers like certs, managers authorize software purchases, we want Linux software purchased, so certs are good.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Tom:
Thank you for correcting me. I have completely
forgotten about the degree and professional
registration. I do have a degree, but I don't
have a registration, therefore I don't think that
I can legally call myself and engineer.
I stand corrected. Let's see if Microsoft and
Red Hat and others who use the term incorretly
can make the move and retract the term engineer.
Cleara
...or it will be DOA.
The MCSE is an almost useless cert to go and get if you plan to work in a modern IT department. Due to Microsoft concetrating generating revenue from it's MCSE progrsam and not really worrying about creating truly knowledgable sysadmins the MCSE will get you a 30K job (or less) on a Helpdesk as a mouth-breathing card reader. Unfortunately, the cert mills and Microsoft itself sell this useless stack of papers as keys to the server room, where you will know better than the guys who have been staying up all night for years in there putting on security patches, hotfixes, service packs and upgrades that are wildly different from one another. It ain't so, sorry, thanks for playing.
Red Hat, on the other hand, has a chance to create some truly educated people in their cert program, and if they do, they will definitely be able to get their foot in more doors. But if they just create a bunch of wild-eyed know-it-all evangalizers (read: sales people) who just know how to spin up an install and then run the graphical version of Up2Date, then it will be as big a waste of time as Micro$ofts.
Of course, all IT groups are managed by MCSE's (Magazine Certified Stupid Engineers) who read the rags and think that it would be oh so easy to go and migrate from Progress to Oracle, AND implement SAP in a single evening of downtime!
I'm a RHCE (2 years ago), MCSE (6 or 7 years ago), and a CCNP. The new MCSE exams are a good bit deeper than the earlier tests that were very easy. The RHCE is a good lab exam, but mainly focuses on supporting small Linux servers in a pretty rigid setup. It doesn't really cover managing a large Linux network, like some of the MCSE tests cover.
Is the RHCE worth it? It's a good cert and until it gets washed out, it has value. But don't worry, when it gets popular you'll see cheat sheets and answer books just like you do with the MCSE. The exam will always be based on the RedHat classes, which can be reduced down to only the facts needed.
I did not take any Red Hat classes when I took my exam...in fact, I was the only one out of 8 that didn't. I got a 98% on the exam while some of the people who took the training were taking it their 2nd time. I think those guys passed when I was there, but I wouldn't want them on my servers....
I think they should call them Certified Linux / Unix Engineers. Who could resist the acronym?
I take it you aren't a MCSE and haven't looked at the re-certification policy. I've been a MCSE for close to 7 years. This year will be the first time I've been forced to upgrade. No big deal.
Cisco requires you to recertify every 3 years, no matter what. I've been an RHCE for about 2 years and so far no recert needed in site.
I bet I could get anyone with some IT experience to pass the RHCE exam in 2 weeks. An Exam Cram was released (they went under) that covered pretty much every piece of the exam. Any test can be reduced down and a "cheat sheet" created.
There will be plenty of paper RHCEs as soon as the cert becomes popular. The real creators of paper certs are the companies themselves pushing quick courses that always seem to stress the sticky spots on the exam.
> I've met w. the local governing body to discuss this last year.
God, I'll bet they almost died, trying not to laugh in your face. You must have been coffee-machine talk for a week.
Perhaps it's just my current location (Kentucky) that has me thinking this, but when it's all said and done and you've got your shiny new Red Hat Certification, how many companies are going to know or even care about it's importance? Linux is growing more and more efficient, and, as such, being used by more and more companies. But it's still just a drop in the bucket. I'm sure there's many a company that hasn't heard of Red Hat (or Mandrake, SuSE, blah blah blah), or at least there was prior to IBMs pushing of it onto the airwaves. I suppose what I'm trying to say is there's a lot of companies blinded by the famous MCSE that this "newfangled RHCE" won't mean a jot to them.
TLoM: Nerds + DDR + Rednecks for the win!
Microsoft changed its' position because they don't want the people they've ripped off suing them for illegal certifications.
One of the arguments people give me as to why they don't want to switch their shop over to Linux is because 'The learning curve is just too great.' They feel that they have too much time and money invested in learning Windows.
Making Linux training available cheaply gives Linux more credibility and at the same time removes one of the main reasons I've heard for not adopting it.
Well done Red Hat!
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
However, that is outside their true use in the life of administration. Technical people can gauge other technical people moderately well, or at least can know when someone else knows more than them. Outside of tech, its very difficult for an executive to gauge the skillset of a candidate. To an executive, a piece of paper is more valuable in determining a job candidate's skillset, plain and simple.
Not to mention, many consulting firms have clients which look for buzzwords. If you have no idea on how to make a choice between 2 consulting firms, and one is offering certified engineers, why wouldn't you pick that firm?
And if you're the same executive, sometimes performance based reviews are difficult to manage. A quick and easy "Hey Johnny, if you get your MCSE/RHCE/CCNP you'll get a 15% raise!" does just nicely.
The value of the certification goes beyond what it means to the typical slashdot reader.
I was quite happy to give my 2 cents on the issue, of course, but that's because we're all in agreement that Microsoft was defrauding consumers by offering "certification" as an "engineer".
It would be much better if it were a LINUX certified engineer. It should focus on core concepts, not on redhat specific stuff. I guess it is in Redhat's interests to get these kids on their flavor though, so that redhat is what gets bought at companies as these kids move into the business world. Hmmm. Sounds much like what a certain company in Washington has been doing for many years by flooding universities and high schools with discounts/free products.
I agree with on your points except for where you say"Pointy haired bosses don't know a good coder from a hole in the ground, so they hire the janitor-cum-MCP with the $20,000 salary expectation."
Last time I checked an MCP had nothing to do with punching code.
A systems engineer and a coder or two very different animals.
A coder might do a little admin and and an admin might code a little. But otherwise on two seperate ends of the spectrum. Not a very good comparison.
I have also had the pointy haired bosses who have hired utter embeciles as admins. But also cause they listened to the stringy haired coders who thought cause they could could they were admin gods as well.
I am a RHCE, MCSE,MCSA,CCNA, A+ and NET+
RHCE - A little difficlut but if you have the Unix experience and study hard you can pass it.
MCSE 2000 - Well the MCSE NT 4 was a joke. The 2000 track(if you dont use cheats) recquires a lot of study and experience to pass. Active Directory and Migration are two hard topics. Yeah, people used the cheats, but I tell you, I just took the AD 2000 examn, and it was no joke. Don't punish us MCSEs who actually know what they are doing.
A+ If you need to study for this, you need to choose another field. But their is a lotta cumaltive knowledge here.
Net+ A very good primer before you hit the CCNA if your only experience is your home network.(which 90% of the people in the world makes them gurus cause they got a speedstream router with a web based admin) but I would reccomend it to anyone who wanted to get into networking.
CCNA - Best beginners network course there is. Learn the theory and you will go far.
My problem with Linux admins is this. They consistently dog MS and their products when 90% of them do not know enough about them. Like any OS you have to live it and breath it to know it. And Windows 2000 is a damned fine product if you know how to admin it. Many don't. And people on the nix side dont tend to learn. I run headless 2000 servers, yep no gui, i turn it on when i need to do something. Always astound people when they see this.
MS Admins, are very inflexible, reboot and restore seems to be their main fixes for all. Instead of installing right the first time and doing the maintenance.
I use *nix and Windows for different things. Each has its good and bad. But a mentor of mine told me that the best way is to learn them all and take from each. That is what I have done. FUD is for children.
Puto
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
Hmm, it looks like I'll be about a year too late! I took and passed (almost aced) my RHCE 7.2 last March, maxing out my credit card to take the RH302 (Exam only). I sure wish something like this was around; I could have used the help seeing as I was (still am) in college...
:-)
On the plus side, I now have a kick-ass full time job admining RH boxen, and I'm only just going to graduate in May BSCS (Acronym pun intended
One thing I can say is that there won't be any such thing as a "Paper RHCE", so long as the format does not change, no matter how much discount they give. They can make the exam free, it's still as hard as it is if you pay $750-$3000.
An MCP is what you get for completing any one of the courses. The MCPs whose resume's end up on my desk (and generally straight into the trashcan) have completed Visual Basic for Desktop Applications, and consider themselves 'Professional Developers'.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
As an RHCE, I can tell you that Red Hat has recently polled RHCE's to find out if anyone was willing to DONATE time to NON-PROFIT organizations in their vicinty and offer assistance with Linux (setup, deployment, troubleshooting, and staff education).
... I can't pick on RHCE's because I honestly don't know any others. Even the smarter UNIX admin peers I have that attempted it, didn't pass. Maybe all the stars aligned for me on test day. My class had a 20% pass rate. However, before you blast me for picking on MSCE's I want you to know that if RHCE's deserved to be picked on, they would get a dose as well.
The RHCE program hasn't been around that long and the final 6 hour really test pushes your endurance and breadth of knowledge. A year or two ago, RHCE's were very sparse and rounding up volunteers to help in a specific area would have proved challenging. However, now that the RHCE population has grown there might be enough volunteers to go around. I volunteered! I'd be happy to help my local library, school, or public institution into Linux Land.
Incidentally, I've never seen MSCE's volunteer for anything related to MS products. The only time I see them is when we are interviewing. You can always tell an MSCE since the logo is usually printed LARGE at the top of the re'sume'. They usually try to regale us with tales of how they used TCP/IP engineering and the OSI standard to assign an IP address to their cable modem router. Of the batch I interviewed, none even had Computer Science degrees. However, this was back in the day when we used to do interviews. It was so long ago we had a different President.
Ok, enough picking on MSCE's
If there are any other RHCE's out there, I'd really like to start an RHCE listserv or community. Also, I live in the Detroit area and have tried to get Red Hat to hold a RHD (Red Hat Kernel Development) class in Detroit, but they claim there isn't enough interest. If you have a similar desire, please check the Red Hat training website and drop me an email. I can fill two seats, but believe a minimum of 5 is required to fly in an instructor.
However, keep in mind. All certifications are mostly worthless. They usually won't get you a job or even a raise. The best bet is still a college degree followed by an MBA. It's mostly personal satisfaction.
I think the Red Hat Educational Push is great! I fully endorse it and will even volunteer time to support it! Please do the same if you get the call for help.
Also, keep in mind that Red Hat is not the ANTI-CHRIST. Anyone who wishes can still make their own distro and if you want to compile it all yourself, check out gentoo. Without IBM, Red Hat, and the hard working developers plowing ahead, the Linux movement might be over except maybe in some parts of Europe.
Microsoft will still try to stop and block Linux, but I have it on good authority that some of the guys at Redmond actually like Open Source and have the desire to incorporate some of it's features. Linux is no longer just chasing tail lights!
A general rule, though, is that one must hold a PE to legally represent themselves as engaged in practice of "professional engineering".
Its common for there to be several classes of people working in engineering. Example my wife's ex-husband is an Engineer working for one of the automotive manifactures, but he is not a professional engineer like an person graduating form a college engineering curiculum, he's an overpaid mechanic, not even a certified mechanic at that.
Having said that it's obvious that MCSE's or RCSE are not licensed professional engineers, but I expect that more than a trivial number of licensed professional electronic engineers have the cert's if only for grins and giggles.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Any books for RHCT out yet? A cursory search didn't find anything. I'd like to be RHCE, but with college and working, maybe my first attempt should be at RHCT instead.
"Wherever you go, there you are..."
Which is the only country in the world to have ever used nuclear weaopns in a war ? :-) We did that and it was very effective.
... called the 'Advanced Concepts Initiative' to look at a variety of new or modified nuclear weapons capabilities", Kathryn Crandall, a researcher with the British American Security Information Council (BASIC), told The Times of India.
I bet you know that one
But...
Do you know which country will use nuclear weapons in the war very soon in the near future ?
Answer: We will do that again pretty soon !!
Read on:
The Bush administration is actively researching the implications of a nuclear attack on deep underground bunkers using computers to test the 'kill and spill' levels of bunker-busting 'small' nuclear weapons.
The program details of which were reported in the Los Angeles Times on Monday provides further evidence that the US is seriously contemplating the use of nuclear weapons against Iraq, and possibly other potential adversaries such as North Korea.
According to the LAT, the Pentagon "has launched a fast-track program to develop computers that would help decide when nuclear weapons might be used to destroy underground bunkers harbouring weapons of mass destruction".
Apart from determining the amount of force needed, the system "would asses the potential for killing nearby civilians and inflicting other collateral damage, including the spread of radioactive dust thrown into the air by the nuclear device and the dispersal of toxic chemicals from weapons in the bunker".
If the computer tests suggest an "acceptable" civilian casualty rate, Washington would presumably not be squeamish about using bunker-busting nukes.
Whatever the military necessity for such weapons, say critics, the Bush administration's political motivation is to produce nuclear weapons that are 'small' enough to use or 'credibly' threaten an adversary. Pentagon planners feel the destructive potential of regular nuclear weapons is so enormous as to render them politically unusable, especially against a non-nuclear adversary like Iraq.
Though the US has been working for some time to develop a nuclear weapon capability designed to defeat 'Hardened and Deeply Buried Targets' (HBDTs), the programme has received a considerable boost since the election of George W Bush as president.
"This so-called Robust Nuclear Earth penetrator (RNEP) program is part of an overall effort
She said the initiative is "certainly very troubling... because it pushes new nuclear designs or modifications that develop new capabilities."
Even though these designs may be validated without any resort to full-scale underground tests, Crandall said they "may still undermine the spirit of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT), the goal of which has been to curtail development of advanced, new nuclear weapons capabilities".
In a report to the US Congress in 2001, the Pentagon estimated that there are over 10,000 HBDTs worldwide. While very few are of strategic significance, the Pentagon believes the number will increase significantly in the next decade. The onset of lower yield nuclear weapons, says a BASIC report, is shifting the force structure of the US "towards giving nuclear weapons a more prominent role as usable weapons".
Red Hat has had information on their web site regarding Red Hat Academy for some time... but they are just getting it rolling... and haven't really announced it in a big way.
I passed the RHCE back in April of 2002 and I know that the RHCE program is a high quality program... especially the test.
I happen to work for a college in Montana and I was interested in learning what it would take to get Red Hat Academy / RHCT training and testing in our area... hoping to eventually turn it into an RHCE training program (not currently in Red Hat's cards). After talking to Joel Jackson (I think that was his name) in the Sales department... he emailed me a PDF with the details.
First year cost:
$15,000 for training - 2 RHCE Instructors and 1 RHCE Administrator
$22,000 for a year of Red Hat Academy curriculum, support, manuals, distribution, etc.
So... the first year investment is $37,000
Additional years are $22,000 (unless you lost your trained people and need to train more).
I wonder if that $22,000 figure is negotiable? That is good for up to 5,000 students per year.
They only allow non-profit educational institutions (high schools, colleges, universities, etc) in the Red Hat Academy program... and while they say you can charge the student a fee (call it whatever you want... book fee, lab fee, etc) they really don't give you any guidelines as to what you can charge... except that Red Hat wants $150 for each test administered. How much do you charge for tests? Again, that's up to your institution.
Being from a small college in Montana, $37,000 is a sizable first year investment. It wouldn't be any big deal if we could get 500 students interested in the program... but that would be a real challenge. Considering the fact that Red Hat is "planting seeds" with the Academy program... you'd think the seeds would be cheaper... or that they'd have a program priced close to cost. I have no idea how much it will take Red Hat to administer. I'm sure it is a quality program, judging by the RHCE.
Scott Dowdle
www.MontanaLinux.Org
Sorry I used all my mod points allready. You deserve more than a "attaboy".
Certs are beneficial in 2 ways. 1. To me. I am CCNA MCSE and CNE - with each cert I am percieved as more valuable to my company. They offered me a $2000 bonus to get my last cert - the CNE. (and immediatly after that they decided to scrap netware in exchange for Win2k) Whether or not I learn anything from the tests is up to me. Personally I got the most out of my MCSE courses. 2. My company can bill me at higher rates due to my "credentials". More money for them more money for me. And yes you do learn things in these courses. Go take one. Whether you understand this or not - percieved value is more worthwhile than intrinsic value when you are looking for a job or a raise. Personally I feel I could do just as good a job without these certs but I understand I live on planet earth and use them to my advantage. For those of you complaining about how certs are so worthless - go back to your job hunt. P.S. I am in the process of recertifying on MCSE before I set my sites on the Red Hat course.
i am a public school teacher. let's face it, school districts are not run by the "best and brightest". see LAUSD (los angeles). however, this means that yes, that linux has real value, AND, that kids need to learn it in order be employable in the "real world". the ease and cost of entry is a huge bonus and an easier sell.
i can't tell you how many times our paper tigers have screwed up our network at school. where linux could have provided real solutions, it is purposely excluded, simply because it tramples on others' turf. what this helps do is get RHCE's into schools, they push it, parents see the value in it, kids get into it, and the ball gets rolling. plus, the cost is VERY attractive to school boards. it is win-win. and lete's face it, there isn't a whole lot of difference between linux distros really. flame on here, but c'mon, if you are red hat cert., and you get a deb server, are you lost? now, if you're a paper tiger mcse in front of a shell prompt...
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
Voila! You're a Canuck (Canudd?)
MSIE: The world's most standards-complaint web browser.
For those of you complaining about how certs are so worthless - go back to your job hunt.
Certifications _are_ useless for anyone looking to get a truly high paying job. I have absolutely zero and I'll probably make more money in the next 10 years than you will make in your entire lifetime.
What language do you have to program in to be considered a professional developer?
IMHO, it's about dang time. If they had this around 5 years ago when I was working on my comp sci degree, I definitely woulda stuck around long enough to get one of these as well. Instead, I'm just a lowly programmer making stacks of cash and getting my toes licked by beautiful women.
No, really, this I would have stuck around for.
Spread the RC luvin'
Moe and Curly's Software Emporium.
In Swahili, it means "I spent a week and $1500 to learn how to RTFM".
Stupid fucking geese can do it twice a year.
This is awesome. My school has been offering all 4 semesters of the CCNA course for the past 2 years, so I'm going through it. Although people say it's a "jokey class" compared to BC Calculus or even our school's C and C++ classes, I think it is amazing.
:P
The one downside is that the kids are learning more than what the IT staff knows... because they haven't taken the CCNA yet! So sooner or later some kid is gonna telnet into a piece of hardware that doesn't have a password or something and make a mess...
RHCE would be awesome, but I would feel bad having so many people crowd into the secret linux society
Gasp! Not the Quebec Order of Engineers? Defenders of truth and justice! Fighting for the common man, against the dastardly League of Demi-Engineers!
I know a few Canad's, down south here, told me they always thought that the dumbest law going.
Now, I'm entertained by the thought of you and QOoE, diligently agreeing on Microsoft's frauds.
> Actually, they (Microsoft) are being taken to court over the whole thing
Got a link?
As a junior engineer, I'm not too happy with the loose use of the word "engineer"
. ht ml
The title of engineer should only be bestowed upon those with enough knowledge, experience, and professional accountability to certify the proper performance of any system whether mission-critical or not.
You don't acquire those skills in a strip mall, and Canadian Law sure as hell doesn't give you any professional accountability.
Anyway, here is the press release that the parent post was referring to:
For immediate release
OIQ advises MCSE holders NOT to use the term engineer
Montreal, August 13, 2002 - Due to Microsoft Canada's recent announcement that the company will continue to use the term engineer as part of its Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer (MCSE) designation, the Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec (OIQ) is advising MCSE holders that they are subject to the laws of Quebec and will be prosecuted should they improperly represent themselves to the public as engineers.
"Microsoft Canada has left us no choice," says OIQ president, Gaétan Lefebvre, Eng. "The term engineer and the engineering profession itself are strictly regulated across Canada - just like the legal and medical professions. Last year, Microsoft agreed to advise their Canadian holders of the MCSE certification not to call themselves engineers or use the full title. Now that they've reversed their decision, we will enforce the Province's Engineers Act and Professional Code. These two laws are very clear and were in force long before Microsoft ever existed. In Québec, the OIQ is responsible for their enforcement."
According to section 22.2 of the Engineers Act (R.S.Q., c. I-9):
22. Any person not a member in good standing of the Order who:
(1) [...];
(2) assumes the title of engineer alone or qualified, or makes use of any abbreviation of such title, or of any name, title or designation which might lead to the belief that he is an engineer or a member of the Order,
(3) advertises himself as such,
(4) acts in such a manner as to lead to the belief that he is authorized to fulfil the office of or to act as an engineer,
(5) [...],
is guilty of an offence and is liable to the penalties provided in section 188 of the Professional Code (chapter C-26).
And, according to sections 32 and 188 of the Professional Code (c. C-26):
32. No person shall claim in any manner to be an advocate, notary, physician, dentist, pharmacist, optometrist, veterinary surgeon, agrologist, architect, engineer, land-surveyor, forest engineer, chemist, chartered accountant, radiology technologist, denturologist, dispensing optician, chiropractor, hearing-aid acoustician, podiatrist, nurse, acupuncturist, bailiff or midwife, or use one of the above titles or any other title or abbreviation which may lead to the belief that he is one, or initials which may lead to the belief that he is one, or engage in a professional activity reserved to the members of a professional order, claim to have the right to do so or act in such a way as to lead to the belief that he is authorized to do so, unless he holds a valid, appropriate permit and is entered on the roll of the order empowered to issue the permit, unless it is allowed by law.
The prohibition relating to the use of any titles, abbreviations or initials mentioned in the first paragraph or in an Act constituting a professional order extends to the use of such titles, abbreviations and initials in a feminine form.
188.Every person who contravenes a provision of this Code, of the Act or letters patent constituting an order or of an amalgamation or integration order is guilty of an offence and is liable to a fine of not less than $600 nor more than $6 000.
"Engineers have an enormous responsibility to the public" explains Mr Lefebvre. "When engineers create a design and build such things as superstructures, airplanes, computerized control systems and highways, public safety and confidence are at stake. People trust engineers because they have a permit to practice engineering, and such trust is vitally important. The public has a long history of respect for professionals with a reserved title. It's also why governments across Canada have entrusted the responsibility of regulating the practice of the engineering profession to the organizations that govern the profession in each province, and for Québec, that is the Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec."
The OIQ President continued: "Becoming an engineer is not just a matter of completing a few days or weeks of studies, as Microsoft suggests when it promotes its MCSE certification. In fact, at a meeting in their offices in Seattle, Microsoft officials openly admitted to officials from the Canadian Council of Professional Engineers (CCPE) that their MCSE training program is in no way comparable to an academic engineering program. In Quebec, there are a number of laws and regulations governing the engineering profession. All this extensive legislation is based on the principle of protecting the public. That is the OIQ's principal function, and its primary concern is to verify the skills of those who apply for admission to its ranks."
Only persons who hold a permit to practice issued by OIQ and are registered on its membership roll as engineers can use this strictly reserved title. Once engineers receive their permit to practice and thus the right to use this professional title, they are required to adhere to a professional code of ethics and demonstrate continued competency in their field of expertise.
To date, in all cases where OIQ has taken legal action against the unlawful use of the title of engineer, the individuals charged have been found guilty. The OIQ President concluded: "When the OIQ learns of people violating the Engineers Act by not being registered on the roll of members, we see that they are prosecuted. They are not entitled to use the title of engineer, which has been strictly reserved for the members of OIQ. These violators run the risk of being fined."
The Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec (OIQ) regulates and governs the practice of engineering in the province in accordance with the Engineers Act. OIQ has over 45,000 members and is affiliated with the Canadian Council of Professional Engineers (CCPE,) which represents some 160,000 engineers across Canada.
The full text of the Engineers Act and the Professional Code of Québec can be consulted on the OIQ Web site at www.oiq.qc.ca.
For information:
Danielle Frank, ARP
Conseiller en communications
Direction des affaires corporatives
Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec
Tel. (514) 845-6141 or 1 800 461-6141, ext. 111
http://www.peo.on.ca/enforcement/OIQ_Aug12_2002
I'm a support engineer in a telecoms company in the UK office and, a few months ago, I had a problem connecting to one of our US web sites. So I fired up trusty "traceroute" on my Linux box and, sure enough, one of the US routers was dropping packets.
Not knowing who to report this to, I rang the local IT help desk to report the problem and spoke to one of the techs, who I know to be MCSE certified.
Here's a rough transcript of the conversation...
"Hi, I had a problem connecting to one of the US webservers so ran 'traceroute' and it looks like one of the Dallas routers is dropping packets. I've got a dump of the traceroute output if you want it."
"Don't you mean 'tracert'?"
"No, I ran 'traceroute' from the Linux box on my desk."
"We don't support Linux."
"Yes, I know that but this is a network problem, not a local computer problem."
"Have you got your Windows 2000 laptop booted up?"
"Yes, I have."
"I'd like to look at the Network settings in Control Panel."
"Why? I ran the 'traceroute' from my Linux box that's on the same subnet as my laptop. My laptop has the same problem - I can connect to the local mail server and to web sites in the UK. Therefore there is no problem with the network configuration of my laptop. It's a router in the US that has a problem."
"I'd still like to check your network settings. Go to the 'Start' button and..."
"No, you misunderstand me. I am just letting you know that one of the Dallas routers has a problem so that you can raise a fault with the people over there to get them to check it out. I have no problem with my laptop."
"We have a specific process that we need to follow to investigate all faults."
"Yes, I appreciate that but as an informed user and somebody who trains people in TCP/IP, I have done some initial diagnostic work on your behalf to allow you to bypass your process."
"But I can't raise a fault until I've done the initial check of your laptop."
"But my laptop is fine because I didn't initially see the problem from there anyway. I saw it from the Linux box on my desk. I just confirmed that I had the same problem using my laptop."
"I cannot take faults on Linux servers because we don't support Linux"
"Fine, then I'll run 'tracert' on my laptop."
"No, not yet, I have to check your network settings.."
I put the phone down at this point...
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
when they start telling people that they are looking for someone who has a CLUE
that would be me as exampled yesterday:
/etc/fstab and rendered your RH 8 machine non-bootable...what do you do?
Pop Quiz hotshot:
You mucked about in your
Break out the Slackware 7 disk, boot, mount the drive and fix the fstab file.
(oh, and Redhat....where is cfdisk? sheesh).
.
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
I don't understand why everyone bashes having a cert. I'm a Unix Admin who took some time off to get certified in Hp-Ux and Solaris (and a mental breather). When I started my job search the bulk of the technical interview questions I was given at most places were covered on these tests, but I also had experience to back it up.
A sagely Unix Admin told me during an interview how he didn't hold much stock in certs. He then proceeded to ask questions that could've been taken directly from the hp-ux exam.
Any.
But you have to be able to program. The course I referred to familiarizes you with all the menu options in the IDE, and teaches shit about actually writing code that works.
I shouldnt have to explain to the 'programmers' I work with what a search tree is.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Well if the person was dumbfounded at the concept of a search tree that's one thing, but just because they aren't famaliar with one initially doesn't mean they can't learn quickly. If you told me you needed a search tree I'd go find one of the 45 million examples they have on the internet in VBA and use it, but I couldn't do one from scratch.
Of course, if you're a VBA programmer search trees aren't really used that often in my experience. VBA is more for high level automation, databases and things like that.
My first certification was in Developing Apps with MS Access & VBA, and while it wasn't extremely intense in code, there definitely was some. You had to know DAO and things like that, string functions. Basically stuff you would need to develop apps using VBA and Access, not basic computer science stuff.
So true! I've been looking for a long time, and if anything, as time passes, the HR Reps seem to become more arrogant, obnoxious, and totally aware of the power they have over people's lives. One twat actually said to me this week that she automatically throws out the resume of anybody who calls her on the phone to follow-up (before she calls them) because "Chances are, anybody who is rabidly looking for a job is an unemployed 'bad' employee who we don't want anyway..." ('Bad' apparently means anyone with enough ambition to follow-up on a job after submitting a resume.)
The way it works at large companies is your resume gets dumped text only into a database, and they then do some keyword searching based on what they're hiring for. (ie. MCSE, RHCE, MCSD, Linux+, Samba, Apache, RedHAt, whatever...) All the "hits" are evaluated by human eyes, the rest get automated rejection post cards. Period. If your resume isn't designed to get a "hit" in the DB query no person will ever look at it. Your experience level, where you've worked, your accomplishments and what projects you've worked on--none of them matter at the "HR Slug" phase of hiring.
All that matters is that when they're seeking an MCSD who knows SQL, C++, Perl, and HTML, the DB Query looks for those letter combinations and flags them. Again, anybody else isn't even considered. If these buzz words aren't on your resume, you don't get an interview.
And I agree, it sucks. Believe me. Shit, I've been working on getting into ond company for six months now--A job that would be PERFECT for me.
I have every single qualification they want except one: Paid experience working with Crystal Reports. They WILL NOT INTERVIEW ME because I've never been paid to use Crystal Reports. The job has sat open for six months because they can't find anybody with all the DB skills and crystal reports who will work for the money they're offerring. I even offerred to pay for Crystal Reports training OUT OF MY OWN POCKET if I could just get an interview, even offerred to submit to multiple skills tests, and to create reports for them as an "audition" for the job. I pointed out that since they haven't filled the job in six months they should think alternatives if they're serious about hiring somebody. Response?
"Nope, sorry. We need at least a year of paid Crystal experience to even consider you. We won't train or allow anybody to prove themselves." You know what's really sad? This paragraph originally ended with "At least these assholes answer the phone." But the more I think about it, the more I wish I'd never been told this. Part of me (the part that holds on to hope of ever getting another job) needs to think that employers aren't all completely stupid, inflexible ninnies who leave qualified DB Admins like myself posting on slashdot over lack of paid experience with a fucking database abstraction GUI. Hell, I've had interviews for other jobs where they say "Crystal? Shit, somebody with your skills can learn that in 25 minutes", so I know I'M not crazy.
Yeah, I could just buy the software, learn it, and then lie on my resume. But that sort of thing will get you fired if it comes out down the road (and I don't have $1000 for enterprise-level Crystal Reports software.)
Bottom line? HR Reps are the most worthless people at any technology company. They don't know what the hell they're doing as far as hiring IT and technology skill workers, but are still in charge of "pre-screening" these people.
This is just something you have to learn to accept. Yeah, some guys will get lucky and find a job where people take time to review resumes by hand and hire people based on the depth of information they draw from this activity. More power to him! I'm glad he was so fortunate. But for the rest of us, who need jobs, being picky in this economy isn't really practical.
As much is it sucks to admit, if you want a job, the best way to optimize your chances is to pander to the idiot HR Monkey. You simply have to accept that most (99%+) American companies regard you as cattle--interchangable beasts whose relative merits are best analyzed with a black and white DB query. You get a hit, you might get an interview. If not, you won't ever hear from them.
You can take the "moral high ground" which seems to be this unspoken IT elitism that we shouldn't have to jump through hoops to get a job because we know about computers... But in this economy this "high ground" is really more like a beach that unemployed techies run aground on.
My only practical advice is that if you find the process distasteful, you should consider hiring a professional resume writer to re-work what you have. I've had five interviews in three weeks with four companies since getting my resume re-done... She did all the distasteful buzzword stuff-- I just showed up and told her about myself and what I do/want to do. Best $200 I ever spent...
Who did what now?
How about a Domestic Engineer?
or a /Petroleum Distribution Engineer/gas pump jockey/s
You starting a .com business 3 years late?
Read the news. You are going to actually have to do something.
Seriously though, what is a truly high paying job and how do you propose to get one? There's no substance to your claims and posting AC didn't improve that.
...have differing levels of importance.
I recently moved from the UK to the Middle East. The situation in the Gulf States such as Qatar, Oman, the UAE, etc, is that the local citizens of each state make up, on average, about 20% of the population of the country. 'Locals', meaning the indigenous Arab population, generally work for the government in managerial positions and the majority of hands on IT work is performed by people from every country in the world, from Kyrgystan to South Africa, to Great Britain, to Somalia, to India and everywhere in between.
Certifications in this region are extremely important. As a manager looking to employ someone, whether in a small or large company, you have to have some benchmark to use before you even interivew someone for a hands on IT role as you have no way of knowing what the general standard is in Iran, or Somalia or England, so there is no point interviewing everyone who claims they have a CS degree from the University of Tehran or Dundee or Hyderabad followed by sys admin experience at the Al Eadffg Coat Factory - it simply means nothing to you.
So, you need some kind of benchmark from which to work up from.
If you need an MS admin, you start off with people who are MS certified. If you need Sun skills you interview only those with Sun certification. Clearly a good manager will try and delve a little more deeply into what each individual can actually do and make a decision based on the results.
As an Englishman, I'd be happy accepting a CV from someone from the UK without certification as I could look at a CV and make some judgements based on my own experience as to whether they are worth interviewing. We'd speak the same language and would have had similar experiences which would let me make that judgement. For other nationalities, I'd expect to start with at least some kind of 'official' level of skill and take things from there.
Equally, an Indian manager wouldn't trust a UK CV - and quite rightly so - as they don't have the experience to judge what a UK guy's CV *really* means.
So, even though the certification doesn't guarantee that the guy can do as much as someone without a certification, it gives one a good basis on which to work from.
Linux is taking off here as everyone is obsessed with price and since Linux is 'free' it must be a good thing to use.
So Red Hat are right on the nail in producing a 'benchmark' which the guys with the budgets and the influence can use when looking for potential employees.
I'm most likely going to either UMR or Caltech for either a BSCE, MSCE, or a dual CE/EE degree. Would people hire me with any of those degrees and no certifications? Or would they toss my resume in the trash since I don't have any of the certifications (CCNA, RHCE, MCSE)? I really don't want to be a certified anything, since I would think the degree would speak for itself.
Would it?
Slashdot is a waste of time. I enjoy wasting time.
And this is a table ma'am. What in essence it consists of is a horizontal
rectilinear plane surface maintained by four vertical columnar supports,
which we call legs. The tables in this laboratory, ma'am, are as advanced
in design as one will find anywhere in the world.
-- Michael Frayn, "The Tin Men"
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