why is it that nobody can do well and become a little better? if they do , god forbid, they immediately become evil.
should everyone be grovelling without work or give back everything they got. when we [includes me] _dont have_ , its easy to vilify the people who do have.
what is really more mature is to have some sort of history , some sort of loyalty towards a cause. it might be "cool" to be based on technical merit, but you know its really "cheap" to not give leeway [and] pronounce foul the moment you think it is.
redhat has done a lot of stuff in the community, will do so. i never use redhat but i can just see thousands and thousands of manhours not be "acknowledged" when people just blast them
i have always seen this problem with people in opensource. if its good its bad because good is not happening for you.
small scale, cheapness, immaturity, lack of exposure, less human feelings ? i dont know but i feel disgusted many times by it
i am not a troll. i just thought i should point this out. please be human. thanks.
actually i would beg to differ a little. the guy might be toeing the party line [i.e crapping] the idea that music might become cheap online and make average joe sixpack users to prefer the "safe" route is a possibility.
you are right _today_ but the future...?
consider joe sixpack or aunt tillie - they wont like to run l33t spyware free p2p app . they want to get onto the comp -go to one site like music.foobar.com and click on "buy ":) more like switching channels in a remote?
as somebody else said emusic has this right almost.
i think the biggest favour napster did us was that it made clear the true value for music and the ripoff that is going on - it should be cheap [think $2...] and it should be available on the net and on CD's. thats where i think its all going......
i have seen this kind of work - forming connected graphs, rings , webs and nets:)lately in SO many places and furthermore having contributed to one such study that i _seriously_ begin to wonder whether this is a fad/fashion in the quasi-academic community rather than a useful endeavour.
note: i am NOT discredting the effort or the conclusion but curious as to why these "graph" methods are so popular with people right now especially sociologists
let me try to give examples : debian keyring of trust, stanford web network, open source study [i dont have the paper with me now], the web of wars [given here] are some off the top of my head.
most of them are just number crunching statistics and that too many details looked over [example: civil wars here].
Yes, the two slit experiment is at the heart of physics be it particle theory or wave theory.
Quoting from Feynman :
"We choose to examine a phenomenon which is impossible, absolutely impossible to explain in any classical way, and which has in it the heart of quantum mechanics. In reality, it contains the only mystery.(Feynman, R., et.al.; 1963; Lectures on Physics, Vol. I, p. 37-2)."
when i read it first i was pretty shocked as to whether this was slashdot or some other web-crap.
1) let another person be in the wrong. i think it doesnt behoove us [submitter, editor , whoever] to react like that.
2) dont put yourself in the slime just because the other party is slime.
3) also remember responsibility is something that is proportional to the number of people involved. when you have thousands of people it really isnt nice to air sentiments like this publically.
4) it also dilutes the point. here we are discussing something totally different from the actual post which was relevant, important and DOES constitute news but delivered wrong.
5) i say my share of swear words but yes it _is_ relative and idealism doesnt hold water here. imagine the president standing up and swearing like hell in the speech or your parents doing that while they talk. you have to look a little further than your freedom if its going to turn a public nuisance
at last someone with proper experience has spoken in a sane voice.
its _easy_ to say sell services . its pretty easy to say hack at your will and lets develop things as a community - it just doesnt hold water in a serious [read enterprise] environment. its very tough for everything to be projected as a service.
its surprising NOBODY thinks like an enduser, it really begs the question whether the open source people are techno-elitists. i know because i am one of them:) but after having so many sessions with my friends and helping them out - its almost stupid to think that selling services is enough and being noble in intent and academic in character is the right thing to do. people dont care for that, they want things to use, support in case of help and a smooth passage in unknown waters. NOTHING of which is provided even remotely by the warped and usually obtuse/convoluted software which come out from people like us [the oss community]
the GPL has a lot of problems. it does solve a lot. BUT it has its limitations. if OSS people are not so fanatical they might actually realize this and present an _easier_ option for most people.
think enterprise. you have a loose group of hackers , no documentation, all irritable and having no time [standard response: i am doing it in my free time, dont bug me] and you want a million dollar company to trust these software ?:) yes msft is evil, OSS coders rock but please lets be a little more _realisitic_ . fanaticism doesnt get us anywhere.
i mean , look at linus and his statement on the bk license. he is right...there is no pt in arguing about license because if the tool is right you use it .
a rant , flame me all you can......
linux will never rule the desktop unless they actually get out of this horrible mess and convolution that the licenses have come to be. guess why people like windows? why people prefer aol? dammit , its easy to use. everybody is not a CS hacker, physicists need to use comps - they dont give a jackass that qt violates the license and debian wont include pine. PLEASE.
"Lawrence Lessig is professor of law at Stanford Law School and author of The Future of Ideas, from which this is excerpted. Reprinted with permission of Random House"
* me talking using a cellphone , * suddenly nothing. nada. no voice. no response * press all keys . nothing happens * get frustrated..... * see small blue screen. message:
`press clear+uparrow+downarrow to reboot`
listen. i dont understand this fascination with cringely at all. _yes_ he has been there, done that and probably has very good contacts and ok call him a great guy BUT please dont even pretend that he can be in tune with what is happening technically in the industry or academicia.
writing _tech_ articles for the naivete is _easy_ , put in the correct words and have a good source and explain things simply . yes thats what he does and does it good BUT then slashdot isnt serving the same tech naivetes.
please, sincerely, the more i have been seeing it the more i have felt that posting cringely articles is totally out of place here.
i am a graduate student in CS and now starting my EE degree too and from where i stand most of his aticles look like an eyewash [or] candy to the masses.....
think about it this way. if people using this in korea are going to get hassles in daily its a _BIG_ problem.
i can think of two reasons at least:
a) various problems in linux - new devices support, support for other OS features/documents [half the world will be sending word2k or using windows-only stuff....for which M$ will make sure to release half-assed format specs]. believe me i have seen this happen so many times.....i am not saying linux is bad more that its helpless to the vagaries of the M$-controlled market.
b) problems administering, repairing or using linux systems. while the desktops have come a long way i do think average comrade user will need a lot of support still - hope Hancom is upto this. otherwise it will be a mess....
if they get the wrong signals. the repurcussions will be worse than the advantages.
true , the good things have to start somewhere - agreed this is a great win for open source and might start a cycle by which more hardware vendors support linux and then the ball gets rolling.....but lets first hope for a good start.
i think more than heaving a sigh of relief and getting on with it this really ought to disturb people in general.
i cannot imagine that with all our advances we could not predict this earlier and even then we are still unable to do ANYTHING about it. it really shows how defenceless we are.
i wonder whether should really be a more GLOBAL thrust towards attacking problems like this. maybe all the countries should really pool in their scientific minds and also financial resources for the more pressing things [like this?] . there have been some efforts in this regard but maybe its just not enough. hopefully this should take home the message harder.
the real problem i see is the Usual One(tm). "we dont need to fund crazy ideas in space etc etc...when people are starving" . true , very true but if we dont get enough knowledge about the various phenomena and conditions and variables in space we really are one vulnerable race. the subtle thing though is we just cant say "watch for asteroids" end of story - _no_ . space programs and in general science have a wonderfully intricate way of contributing to each other symbiotically --> SIDE BENEFITS . ok let me make my point clear: look at the space program , its given us tons of materials hard and strong which have found their way into commercial products. so we just cant lay our finger on the Best Thing To Do (tm) . we have to move forward inch-by-inch and hopefully collective knowledge from one effort will help the other and vice versa and in the end we will be top....
of course not to this scale perhaps but HP _had_ a patent infringement problem with univ of rochester. click here for the link.
in general however the size of a company like hp [and its associated hpLabs research] the number of patents churned out is ENORMOUS . i interned in hpL palo alto last summer and the patent figures overall for the previous year was many hundreds..... dont have exact figures sorry. i guess this is due to a) the scale of operations involved b) it pays to patent things *just in case* / *making sure* you have the cat in the bag if you know what i mean.
we seldom realize how many people use editors [like vim] day in and out and how integral its become......
i read the article fully and it seems an incredibly complex piece of work , one which seems to function perfectly too . imho, writing a full-fledged editor like that is one p.i.t.a almost comparable to maintaining kernel trees:)
also from the interview at least, what comes across is a serious, single-minded dedication to making _proper_ stable software.
hurd and microkernels in general....
on
Hurd: H2 CD Images
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
most of the people here would have read about the differences between micro and monolithic kernels [almost a holy war in os design] . in reality it has been the case that the micokernel design has been very much an academicia exercise rather than a commercial one. though it might be due to various other reasons, it does show that there is some merit into 1) making things work for a particular case 2) once working, making it work for others RATHER than trying in one go to get a simpler solution.
i _do_ know that microkernels are much more than what i seem to think of them from the above:) yes the design and the philosophy is very different and surely interesting but practical ?....
i have taken advanced OS classes and i really do feel that the Mach though it had great ideas WAY beyond its time , was horribly complex and interwoven and so much so that anyone cringes on hearing a system based on the Mach:)
i think the Hurd is in a good position to prove us all wrong:) as its closely tied with the debian developers [who have done great work till now] and it has been slowly [very:)] progressing....
Most of the stuff in the "competing" OS [kernels] now have all been thrashed out and thought at least design wise. New features _are_ being added but are usually due to market demand, some modifications or just keeping up with competition:) but for openBSD there must be a single big technical innovation on the top of your wishlist. NO, i am not talking about the usual "will it be more of a desktop OS" or "where is openBSD heading" etc... i am talking any single OS or kernel enhancement you would love to have giving you a solid [if not for long] advantage in the near future over the others. security auditing was one such thing, do you have any other up your sleeve ?? if you would care to share it with us.....
Slashdot Mirror
huh ? what the hell do you mean "won by smart people".
seriously it has to be the dumbest title slashdot has ever given.
come on , get a clue. do give us an example sometime of nobel prizes being awarded to dumb people.
goddamn unprofessional. typical slashdot.
vv
ps: next what: oscar won by good actors ? wait..actually...never mind.
Yeah right. And modded to "Informative"? Slashdot moderators are the _pits_.
Read ingo's reply to Linus. They _did_ start
one test serially and also _parallelly_ . In short he says that its possible.
vv
why is it that nobody can do well and become a little better? if they do , god forbid, they immediately become evil.
should everyone be grovelling without work or give back everything they got. when we [includes me] _dont have_ , its easy to vilify the people who do have.
what is really more mature is to have some sort of history , some sort of loyalty towards a cause. it might be "cool" to be based on technical merit, but you know its really "cheap" to not give leeway [and] pronounce foul the moment you think it is.
redhat has done a lot of stuff in the community, will do so. i never use redhat but i can just see thousands and thousands of manhours not be "acknowledged" when people just blast them
i have always seen this problem with people in opensource. if its good its bad because good is not happening for you.
small scale, cheapness, immaturity, lack of exposure, less human feelings ? i dont know but i feel disgusted many times by it
i am not a troll. i just thought i should point this out. please be human. thanks.
vv
wow. slashdot has ad's as news articles now....
can i post my apartment wanted ad here?
vv
actually i would beg to differ a little. the guy might be toeing the party line [i.e crapping] the idea that music might become cheap online and make average joe sixpack users to prefer the "safe" route is a possibility.
you are right _today_ but the future...?
consider joe sixpack or aunt tillie - they wont like to run l33t spyware free p2p app . they want to get onto the comp -go to one site like music.foobar.com and click on "buy ":) more like switching channels in a remote?
as somebody else said emusic has this right almost.
i think the biggest favour napster did us was that it made clear the true value for music and the ripoff that is going on - it should be cheap [think $2...] and it should be available on the net and on CD's. thats where i think its all going......
v
its really "cool" in all senses of the word:):)
however i wonder how cool the webserver of NOAA is
Vikram
i have seen this kind of work - forming connected graphs, rings , webs and nets
note: i am NOT discredting the effort or the conclusion but curious as to why these "graph" methods are so popular with people right now especially sociologists
let me try to give examples : debian keyring of trust, stanford web network, open source study [i dont have the paper with me now], the web of wars [given here] are some off the top of my head.
most of them are just number crunching statistics and that too many details looked over [example: civil wars here].
oh...and yes, they look pretty i guess....
Vikram
Yes, the two slit experiment is at the heart of physics be it particle theory or wave theory.
Quoting from Feynman :
"We choose to examine a phenomenon which is impossible, absolutely impossible to explain in any classical way, and which has in it the heart of quantum mechanics. In reality, it contains the only mystery.(Feynman, R., et.al.; 1963; Lectures on Physics, Vol. I, p. 37-2)."
Vikram
i totally agree with you. it IS excessive.
when i read it first i was pretty shocked as to whether this was slashdot or some other web-crap.
1) let another person be in the wrong. i think it doesnt behoove us [submitter, editor , whoever] to react like that.
2) dont put yourself in the slime just because the other party is slime.
3) also remember responsibility is something that is proportional to the number of people involved. when you have thousands of people it really isnt nice to air sentiments like this publically.
4) it also dilutes the point. here we are discussing something totally different from the actual post which was relevant, important and DOES constitute news but delivered wrong.
5) i say my share of swear words but yes it _is_ relative and idealism doesnt hold water here. imagine the president standing up and swearing like hell in the speech or your parents doing that while they talk. you have to look a little further than your freedom if its going to turn a public nuisance
my sincere opinion. thanks.
V
"...computers are going nowhere....."
dude, you hit on the head
thats what the guy is also saying:) its a dead-end
V
at last someone with proper experience has spoken in a sane voice.
its _easy_ to say sell services . its pretty easy to say hack at your will and lets develop things as a community - it just doesnt hold water in a serious [read enterprise] environment. its very tough for everything to be projected as a service.
its surprising NOBODY thinks like an enduser, it really begs the question whether the open source people are techno-elitists. i know because i am one of them:) but after having so many sessions with my friends and helping them out - its almost stupid to think that selling services is enough and being noble in intent and academic in character is the right thing to do. people dont care for that, they want things to use, support in case of help and a smooth passage in unknown waters. NOTHING of which is provided even remotely by the warped and usually obtuse/convoluted software which come out from people like us [the oss community]
the GPL has a lot of problems. it does solve a lot. BUT it has its limitations. if OSS people are not so fanatical they might actually realize this and present an _easier_ option for most people.
think enterprise. you have a loose group of hackers , no documentation, all irritable and having no time [standard response: i am doing it in my free time, dont bug me] and you want a million dollar company to trust these software ?:) yes msft is evil, OSS coders rock but please lets be a little more _realisitic_ . fanaticism doesnt get us anywhere.
i mean , look at linus and his statement on the bk license. he is right...there is no pt in arguing about license because if the tool is right you use it .
a rant , flame me all you can......
linux will never rule the desktop unless they actually get out of this horrible mess and convolution that the licenses have come to
be. guess why people like windows? why people prefer aol? dammit , its easy to use. everybody is not a CS hacker, physicists need to use comps - they dont give a jackass that qt violates the license and debian wont include pine. PLEASE.
whatever...maybe i am too put off this morning...
v
but is gnutella really better ? ymmv , but my experience has been that its far from effective....in getting requested relevant info
also iirc gnutella hsa `viral nodes` which can be injected into the network...wonder how that will affect the scenario here
to the article.....:)
"Lawrence Lessig is professor of law at Stanford Law School and author of The Future of Ideas, from which this is excerpted. Reprinted with permission of Random House"
VV
the first thought which popped into my head:
* me talking using a cellphone ,
* suddenly nothing. nada. no voice. no response
* press all keys . nothing happens
* get frustrated
* see small blue screen. message:
`press clear+uparrow+downarrow to reboot`
ah! havent we seen this before:)
VV
finally sound config in linux will no longer be a
Big Thing(tm)
however i wonder why this is big news because there are so many important things which are getting merged. i guess sound has a more generic audience:)
Vikram
listen. i dont understand this fascination with cringely at all. _yes_ he has been there, done that and probably has very good contacts and ok call him a great guy BUT please dont even pretend that he can be in tune with what is happening technically in the industry or academicia.
writing _tech_ articles for the naivete is _easy_ , put in the correct words and have a good source and explain things simply . yes thats what he does and does it good BUT then slashdot isnt serving the same tech naivetes.
please, sincerely, the more i have been seeing it the more i have felt that posting cringely articles is totally out of place here.
i am a graduate student in CS and now starting my EE degree too and from where i stand most of his aticles look like an eyewash [or] candy to the masses.....
Vikram
think about it this way. if people using this in korea are going to get hassles in daily its a _BIG_ problem.
i can think of two reasons at least:
a) various problems in linux - new devices support, support for other OS features/documents [half the world will be sending word2k or using windows-only stuff....for which M$ will make sure to release half-assed format specs]. believe me i have seen this happen so many times.....i am not saying linux is bad more that its helpless to the vagaries of the M$-controlled market.
b) problems administering, repairing or using linux systems. while the desktops have come a long way i do think average comrade user will need a lot of support still - hope Hancom is upto this. otherwise it will be a mess....
if they get the wrong signals. the repurcussions will be worse than the advantages.
true , the good things have to start somewhere - agreed this is a great win for open source and might start a cycle by which more hardware vendors support linux and then the ball gets rolling.....but lets first hope for a good start.
vv
i think more than heaving a sigh of relief and getting on with it this really ought to disturb people in general.
i cannot imagine that with all our advances we could not predict this earlier and even then we are still unable to do ANYTHING about it. it really shows how defenceless we are.
i wonder whether should really be a more GLOBAL thrust towards attacking problems like this. maybe all the countries should really pool in their scientific minds and also financial resources for the more pressing things [like this?] . there have been some efforts in this regard but maybe its just not enough. hopefully this should take home the message harder.
the real problem i see is the Usual One(tm). "we dont need to fund crazy ideas in space etc etc...when people are starving" . true , very true but if we dont get enough knowledge about the various phenomena and conditions and variables in space we really are one vulnerable race. the subtle thing though is we just cant say "watch for asteroids" end of story - _no_ . space programs and in general science have a wonderfully intricate way of contributing to each other symbiotically --> SIDE BENEFITS . ok let me make my point clear: look at the space program , its given us tons of materials hard and strong which have found their way into commercial products. so we just cant lay our finger on the Best Thing To Do (tm) . we have to move forward inch-by-inch and hopefully collective knowledge from one effort will help the other and vice versa and in the end we will be top....
hope i made sense. sorry if it was long
vv
of course not to this scale perhaps but HP _had_ a patent infringement problem with univ of rochester. click here for the link.
in general however the size of a company like hp [and its associated hpLabs research] the number of patents churned out is ENORMOUS . i interned in hpL palo alto last summer and the patent figures overall for the previous year was many hundreds..... dont have exact figures sorry. i guess this is due to a) the scale of operations involved b) it pays to patent things *just in case* / *making sure* you have the cat in the bag if you know what i mean.
vv
we seldom realize how many people use editors [like vim] day in and out and how integral its become......
i read the article fully and it seems an incredibly complex piece of work , one which seems to function perfectly too . imho, writing a full-fledged editor like that is one p.i.t.a almost comparable to maintaining kernel trees:)
also from the interview at least, what comes across is a serious, single-minded dedication to making _proper_ stable software.
great work bram. vim rulez
vv
most useful considering AP's are pretty cheap now
but the windoze only part.....:(
vv
linuxplanet.com reviews....oh wait
vv
most of the people here would have read about the differences between micro and monolithic kernels [almost a holy war in os design] . in reality it has been the case that the micokernel design has been very much an academicia exercise rather than a commercial one. though it might be due to various other reasons, it does show that there is some merit into 1) making things work for a particular case 2) once working, making it work for others RATHER than trying in one go to get a simpler solution.
i _do_ know that microkernels are much more than what i seem to think of them from the above:) yes the design and the philosophy is very different and surely interesting but practical ?....
i have taken advanced OS classes and i really do feel that the Mach though it had great ideas WAY beyond its time , was horribly complex and interwoven and so much so that anyone cringes on hearing a system based on the Mach:)
i think the Hurd is in a good position to prove us all wrong:) as its closely tied with the debian developers [who have done great work till now] and it has been slowly [very:)] progressing....
best of luck to them:)
vv
Most of the stuff in the "competing" OS [kernels] now have all been thrashed out and thought :) but for openBSD there must be a single big technical innovation on the top of your wishlist . .....
at least design wise. New features _are_ being added but are usually due to market demand, some modifications or just keeping up
with competition
NO, i am not talking about the usual "will it be more of a desktop OS" or "where is openBSD heading" etc...
i am talking any single OS or kernel enhancement you would love to have giving you a solid [if not for long] advantage
in the near future over the others. security auditing was one such thing, do you have any other up your sleeve ?? if you would care to share it with us