Slashdot Mirror


Statistics of Deadly Quarrels

CarlNorthcore writes "Brian Hayes published this paper in the Computing Science chapter of Jan-Feb's American Scientist. It provides a fascinating and [sadly] relevant statistical exploration of our world's deadly conflicts. Look out for the excellent "Web of Wars" diagram."

303 comments

  1. emacs vs vi by The+Turd+Report · · Score: 1, Funny

    Just look at all the pain and suffering that quarrel has caused.

    1. Re:emacs vs vi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Look at all the pain and suffering that my drinking has caused.

      My liver FUCKING HURTS!

    2. Re:emacs vs vi by danielobvt · · Score: 1

      Well.. The article did say that when religion got involved disputes were more likely. And nothing can describe the vi-emacs camps as being anything but loyal members of a particular cult.

    3. Re:emacs vs vi by BinxBolling · · Score: 2
      And nothing can describe the vi-emacs camps as being anything but loyal members of a particular cult.

      Nonsense. Maybe those vi nutbars can be thought of as cult members, but those of us who use emacs are simply intelligent, rational decision makers.

  2. Awesome by G0SP0DAR · · Score: 0

    That is one of the coolest things I've ever seen. I ought to move to Colombia, since they never have any wars *cough*

    --


    Calm down, it's *only* ones and zeroes.
    1. Re:Awesome by nite_warrior · · Score: 1

      You wouldn't say that if you would actually live there.. I live right next to Colombia, and we DO KNOW what it must be to be there... and I'm gald I'm not there, and scared that that sh*t is moving to my country...

    2. Re:Awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, sarcasm, learn to recognize it.

    3. Re:Awesome by nite_warrior · · Score: 1

      I know it was... I just mean that if you would be here, you would know it isn't something to make fun of...

  3. nerf by Transient0 · · Score: 4, Funny

    how appropriate that the banner ad was for Nerf weapons when I viewed this story...

    1. Re:nerf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      we live in strange days, hard to believe people still have attension spans and consumer awareness.
      NERF AMERICA!!! and their little inbred president too.

  4. web of wars by jglow · · Score: 1

    the "web of wars" diagram just so happens to look like a drawing done by my 5 year old nephew.

    --


    There's no "I" in Linux.. err..
    1. Re:web of wars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Okay, your 5 year old nephew is obviously to blame for all these wars. In the future his drawings must have been sucked through a time vortex into the past, setting into action all these wars, all these deaths and hate. The simple solution is to kill your nephew now.

      Or just burn all his pictures. Then kill him.

    2. Re:Web of Wars by moheeb · · Score: 1
      "I wish I had this when I needed it.

      When would you need this information? And what useful information could you get from this diagram? You didn't know there had been a lot of wars?

    3. Re:Web of Wars by sanity_slipping · · Score: 2

      I wish the "Web of Wars" had been a globe and not a flat, mercator projection....

      It would be interesting to see how the lines wrapped around the world. Right now it looks like Europe was the epicenter of war, but maybe that's just because of wars that span the Pacific being routed through Europe on the map.

      Hm, actually I think it would be especially interesting to see a globe with an intensity down to about magnitude 2 or 3 or lower.

      It would be interesting to look at, and to show to guests, if nothing else. =]

      --
      I can feel my sanity, beyond my reach and slipping...
  5. Civil Wars by NiftyNews · · Score: 4, Funny

    "Civil wars are omitted"

    Good. I hate to sit around and watch two windbags duke it our with big words. I like my wars like I like my movies: with lots of action and cool explosions.

    1. Re:Civil Wars by wagley · · Score: 1

      For a movie to be good, it must have one of the following: -over the top violence -lots of nudity -or too weird to understant

  6. Web of Wars by k_d3 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Geez. Now that I think about it, there have been a lot more deadly conflicts than they taught us at school. It's a real eye-opener. I wish I had this when I needed it. On another tangent -- isn't this what the web is for? The "Information Superhighway"? It's nice that I'm actually learning useful history online, rather than in some stuffy classroom.

    --
    Live or die trying.
  7. Here's a deadly quarrel for ya. by tcd004 · · Score: 0, Offtopic
    1. Re:Here's a deadly quarrel for ya. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      except that isn't the can you hear me now guy, and though it's fun to smack that fat head mofo who looks like every other piece of white yuppy scum, it just isn't satifying. i am sad.

  8. Thought this was about crossbows. by swv3752 · · Score: 1

    I thought this was about Crossbows. Of course it is about 3 minutes after this was posted and lready the site is slashdotted.

    --
    Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
    1. Re:Thought this was about crossbows. by LedZepplin · · Score: 1

      Yeah me too especially since I play Asheron's Call and they just introduced an element to the game to boost ranged weapons by making either quarrels or arrows "deadly". Hahaha I was wondering why the heck Slashdot would be posting a story on the statistics of the new deadly quarrels....

    2. Re:Thought this was about crossbows. by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, well, I thought the headline said "deadly squirrels", so you can think how much more confused I was...

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    3. Re:Thought this was about crossbows. by Eccles · · Score: 1

      Yeah, well, I thought the headline said "deadly squirrels", so you can think how much more confused I was...

      They do have nasty pointed teeth!

      "I soiled my armor, I was so scared..."

      --
      Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
  9. How To Stop Wars by Mittermeyer · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here is a less obtuse and more practical summation of an 80s book that somehow got short shrift. How To Stop A War is more usable then that article.

    --
    ________________________________________ History Must Not Fall Into The Wrong Hands ___________________________________
    1. Re:How To Stop Wars by pmancini · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That is interesting. I am a big fan of Dunnigan. He is an impossible person to deal with in real life, so I hear, but he has a brilliant mind. His other related books make good reading as well. I especially liked his book on how the digital revolution has changed warfare over the years.

      He and Keegan share a similar idea that is echoed in the article mentioned: "this respect, Richardson's data suggest that wars are like hurricanes or earthquakes: We can't know in advance when or where a specific event will strike, but we do know how many to expect in the long run. We can compute the number of victims; we just can't say who they'll be." Keegan in particular writes in "The Face of Battle" that war is very similar to natural disasters and lists the ways. A good read.

      Finally, if one is interested in this sort of thing, Dunnigan and Austin Bay wrote "The Quick and Dirty Guide to Warfare" which makes predictions. The first book in the series was quite accurate 10 years later. The last update appears to be the 1996 third edition.

    2. Re:How To Stop Wars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We can also be quite sure that the conflict will involve muslims in a disproportionate number of cases.

      I can't remember where it was I read the statistics on this, but it was something along the lines of "in the last 10 [somewhat] major 'conflicts' in the world, 8 of them involved muslims".....sorry, entirely from memory but that was the nature of the article....

    3. Re:How To Stop Wars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quite a few contradictions, especially in his view of America and the use of it's military. I would argue that America's success in war, coupled with it's ability not to fight on it's own soil would speak volumes for America's understanding of war and Europe's lackthereof.

    4. Re:How To Stop Wars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I especially didn't like the use of Nazi Germany in his points about miscalculation. Hitler most deliberately started a world conflict. Everything he did prior to 1939 had the goal of global warfare in mind.

    5. Re:How To Stop Wars by Mittermeyer · · Score: 1

      Now you're just wrong there. Yes Hitler wanted to cow Britain, conquer Europe and turn Russia into a lebensraum charnel house, but he did not want to conquer the British Empire or fight America. In fact Hitler had very little grasp of nautical affairs, although he did ultimately trust Doenitz more then any other military leader and sacrificed an entire army to protect the U-boat pens for three extra months.

      --
      ________________________________________ History Must Not Fall Into The Wrong Hands ___________________________________
    6. Re:How To Stop Wars by Mittermeyer · · Score: 1

      That's like saying 8 of the last 10 wars involved Christians. Islam is a huge religion on par with Christianity, so if people are involved, one or the other belief systems will likely be involved. Throw in Communism, Tribalism, animism or Capitalism as a belief system and that should cover everyone.

      --
      ________________________________________ History Must Not Fall Into The Wrong Hands ___________________________________
    7. Re:How To Stop Wars by Stonehand · · Score: 2

      It was probably Newsweek; they had an issue highlighting what they termed, "The Age of Muslim Wars" and noting that a disproportionate of the recent conflicts involved religiously-motivated warfare in which Muslims were the aggressors against non-Muslims.

      --
      Only the dead have seen the end of war.
    8. Re:How To Stop Wars by soapvox · · Score: 1

      Sorry this is not a flame, just my opinion: Thats a bit dangerous to throw around a statement without saying where the data is from, (not saying you did) maybe you saw it on the National Enquirer or maybe you saw it on the Wall Street Journal, depending on your viewpoint one is much more trust worthy than the other (up to you to decide which). I wonder how many of those conflicts involved christians, because in my experience in the world christians aren't very good at "Turning the other cheek" and in fact like to stir up a bit of trouble themselves.

    9. Re:How To Stop Wars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously, assuming his statistics are accurate, 8/10 of the last wars were not caused by communists, tribalists, or christians (since only one side in a war is usually the aggressor)...

    10. Re:How To Stop Wars by gilroy · · Score: 2
      Blockquoth the poster:

      he did not want to conquer the British Empire or fight America

      Ah, yes. I suppose the Amerika bomber project -- given the explicit mandate of developing a plane that could reach New York from Europe with a bomb load and return -- was really meant just to take tourist photos of the Empire State Building.


      Hitler's alleged respect for the British Empire stems just about entirely from his bizzarre "peace" entreaty wherein he offered to defend the British Empire if they'd stop being so annoying crying about Poland, and France, and the Low Countries, and... Considering how much Hitler lived his propaganda, I think a single Reichstag speech is a mighty thin reed in which to place such faith.


      The goal of the Nazi Reich was a complete overthrow of the existing political realm -- a New World Order -- and there is absolutely no evidence they would have, of their own free will, stopped at anything less.

    11. Re:How To Stop Wars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you sound so smart when you use the contrapositive...

    12. Re:How To Stop Wars by Mittermeyer · · Score: 2

      He didn't wnat to fight America not because he was an enlightened soul but for two reasons- one he thought we were a soft people and so easy to defeat at will. He had other fish to fry.

      The other reason was that the man literally did not understand nautical warfare and amphibious movement. He only followed Doenitz and went for wonder weapons like the bomber project AFTER being forcibly shown by 1943 that long-range bombers and cross-Atlantic troop movements were defeating him.

      Now as far as Today Europe Tomorrow the World, sure he was an opportunist and given no opposition would have taken it all. I'm not suggesting he would have stopped of his own accord. But taking the whole thing was not in any of his plans.

      --
      ________________________________________ History Must Not Fall Into The Wrong Hands ___________________________________
    13. Re:How To Stop Wars by hitzroth · · Score: 1

      Clearly the stuff in the National Enquirer is the more trustworthy, because we know that everything said is grotesquely biased, absurdly sensationalistic, and of consistently low newsworthyness. With the WSJ, we can only hope that stories are unbiased, accurate, complete, and that there isn't a retraction printed in the next week or so. However, the WSJ has much greater credibility.

      --
      In mathematics, one does not understand things, one merely gets used to them.
      --VonNeumann
    14. Re:How To Stop Wars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is interesting. I am a big fan of Dunnigan. He is an impossible person to deal with in real life, so I hear, but he has a brilliant mind

      While I would agree with the "brilliant" part, the negative issues with his personality are overrated. As long as you don't mind smelly cigars, the man is a simply a delight to talk with. Anyone who finds it "impossible" to deal with Dunnigan is simply not putting in any effort. I've had the opportunity to talk with the man on a number of occasions, and each time I've felt the experience to be enriching.

    15. Re:How To Stop Wars by canadian_right · · Score: 2

      If you actually read the article you would have noticed that the Christians currently hold a slight edge on starting wars over the last few hundred years. WWI and II certainly were not started by Muslims.

      --
      Anarchists never rule
  10. already gone by GutBomb · · Score: 5, Funny

    think of the deadly conflict that is happening in this guy's server room right now. slashdotted in 1 minute.

  11. heh by waspleg · · Score: 1

    I wonder where pinky and the brain fit into the Web Of Wars

    (muhahaha)

  12. The flamewars have ended by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Linux Won, BSD has died
    Both Vi and Emacs lost, nano won
    Gnome died KDE won

  13. I can't read. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I thought it said
    • Science
    : Statistics of Deadly Squirrels
    1. Re:I can't read. by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 1

      Frightening...I read the same thing

    2. Re:I can't read. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one cares about your retarded eyes.

  14. Mirror of Web of Wars image by JayAndSilentBob · · Score: 5, Informative

    Just the image, not the surrounding page..... http://www.sellingmysoul.com/web.jpg Hope someone else grabbed the rest of the site before it died....

    --


    Love,
    Jay and Silent Bob
  15. A bit biased by inepom01 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I didn't like the fact that the thing has no indication of time. What about the fact that the US has been around for little over 200 years while other countries (especially the European ones with lots of lines) have been around for much more than that. Maybe they should limit this thing by time or something.

    1. Re:A bit biased by GutBomb · · Score: 2

      it is not a comparision. it is simply a representation.

    2. Re:A bit biased by MrSkunk · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Actually, the US has been around just as long as Europe. It just did not used to be called the US until after the Europeans came here. While the native americans were here, there were no large scale wars.

      This map is not at all biased.

    3. Re:A bit biased by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Still, it would be interesting to see taken into account the fact that in the past 200 years the US has managed to earn itself more enemies than many other countries which have had a headstart of centuries.

    4. Re:A bit biased by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "Actually, the US has been around just as long as Europe. It just did not used to be called the US until after the Europeans came here. While the native americans were here, there were no large scale wars.

      This map is not at all biased."

      Actually, war has been around in the US just as long as in Europe. It just did not used to be called war until after the Europeans came here. While the native americans were here, there were large scale wars, just without European technology.

      This map is biased.

    5. Re:A bit biased by RandomCoil · · Score: 1

      Actually, the US has only been around since 1776, making it quite a bit younger than Europe (the continent). Beyond that, the US is actually quite a bit older than a number of countries in Europe which were the product of the creation or splintering of Empires. Germany's only existed since 1871, after all, and look at all the trouble that country's gotten into.

    6. Re:A bit biased by letxa2000 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Still, it would be interesting to see taken into account the fact that in the past 200 years the US has managed to earn itself more enemies than many other countries which have had a headstart of centuries.

      Globalism, dude. It's a lot easier to make enemies worldwide in 2002 than it was in 1492, or even 1902.

      That said, the article was interesting and provided lots of interesting tidbits. War among neighbors is more common, there is no indication of war for economic reasons nor rich against poor, etc. These are all interesting.

      But to reach the conclusion that wars are "random accidents" that can't be predicted just because there are no strong correlations (other than being neighbors) is hogwash. It's a classic example of science (in this case math) trying to explain something it wasn't meant to explain. Math is good to predict nuclear decay, as mentioned in the article. We really don't care which atom decays, we just have an interest in the total number that decay in a given amount of time.

      This article is a good "first step" at analyzing war. The article shows us that there is no meaningful mathematical explanation for war, other than being neighbors. As far as math goes, it's random.

      But it's not. It's politics. War is simply politics taken to an extreme. Some say that war occurs when politics fails--NO. War is a PART of politics, just instead of using words and treaty signatures, weapons are used.

      Politics is an extension of human interaction. The day that can be truly explained by math is the day that, in effect, we will have a world with robots that use AI to be human-like.

      Math cannot predict wars, but logic and political analysis can. The author was too quick to discard the REASONS for wars simply because the two sides might have conflicting explanations. While it can be hard to objectively look at these things, especially when looking at recent wars, any useful analysis of war has to look at the REASONS.

      To throw out the declared reasons of both sides for a war and try to look for an answer in math or statistics is laughable.

      Other than that, all we really know is that we should watch out for Canada and Mexico. :)

    7. Re:A bit biased by jonathanjo · · Score: 5, Informative

      I didn't like the fact that the thing has no indication of time. What about the fact that the US has been around for little over 200 years while other countries (especially the European ones with lots of lines) have been around for much more than that. Maybe they should limit this thing by time or something.

      This covers the period from 1820 to 1950, as explained in the article. And the caption states, "The diagram ignores many changes in national status (such as the assembly and disassembly of Yugoslavia)." Since they used TLD country codes presumably they are ascribing conflicts to the current nation on the soil of the nation that engaged in it, for convenience. "They" *did* "limit this thing by time or something."

      RTFA.

    8. Re:A bit biased by phossie · · Score: 1

      "The author was too quick to discard the REASONS for wars simply because the two sides might have conflicting explanations."

      Unfortunately I haven't read the article, but this sounds to me like a classic error. Why is there a war? Well, one REASON is that the antagonists have different REASONS for doing what they're doing. They DISAGREE. :-)

      Wars don't generally happen between people that agree, nor is the situation universally acknowledged as a "Good Guy, Bad Guy" situation. Wars happen because things are complicated and people have different needs and wants, because they misunderstand each other... I'd be highly suspicious of any model that didn't assume that it was at least somewhat LIKELY that two sides would have conflicting explanations, reasons, stories.

      Displomacy is far more likely to succeed if you can bring the parties to the table agreeing on what the conflict is about.

      --

      [|]
    9. Re:A bit biased by On+Lawn · · Score: 1


      Someone has not studied their Franco-American, Inca-Mayan,Spanish-American,Aztec-Inca and other large scale Native American Wars.

      These were as bloody as any european war of the same era.

    10. Re:A bit biased by gilroy · · Score: 2
      Blockquoth the poster:

      While the native americans were here, there were no large scale wars.

      Hey, and before there were human beings at all, there were also no wars at all! What's your point? If the Americas were less bloody before the Europeans arrived, it was almost entirely because there was simply less blood to shed -- the archeological evidence is, "native" populations fought some long, brutal wars against each other, too...
    11. Re:A bit biased by Loligo · · Score: 2

      >in the past 200 years the US has managed to earn
      >itself more enemies than many other countries
      >which have had a headstart of centuries

      Powerful countries tend to have lots of enemies.

      How many enemies do you think England had at the peak of the British Empire?

      -l

    12. Re:A bit biased by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But really those Eurpoean countries haven't been around that long. If you measure a country's age by it's government then the US is one of the oldest, if not the oldest country in the world. I believe France and England are the western European that are closest.

    13. Re:A bit biased by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody measures a country's age by government, moron.

    14. Re: A bit biased by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1


      > Globalism, dude. It's a lot easier to make enemies worldwide in 2002 than it was in 1492, or even 1902.

      I dunno 'bout that. Whenever I play Freeciv I usually have the rest of the world on my case by 3500 BC.

      > Math cannot predict wars, but logic and political analysis can.

      My buddy Harry Seldon says otherwise.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    15. Re:A bit biased by blair1q · · Score: 2

      It does account for time.

      Look at the last graph.

      Big decline in frequency of wars in the late 1600's and early 1700's. Which ended--oh look--during the American Revolution.

      Ever since then, the world has decided it can solve its problems profitably through violence.

      --Blair

  16. 3d model by estoll · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Someone should put that diagram into that gnucleus network modelling program so you can focus on certain countries. That image is so cluttered you can barely see anything.

    --
    http://www.askthevoid.com
    1. Re:3d model by vrmlknight · · Score: 1

      isnt gnucleus a gnutella client?

      --
      This must be Thursday, I never could get the hang of Thursdays.
  17. other info... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    ...worth looking at is the Correlates of War Project:
    http://www.umich.edu/~cowproj/

    zeruch

  18. Safest place to live? by gpinzone · · Score: 2, Funny

    I don't know about you, but I'm moving to whatever country ends in "co", "ec", "kr", "ve", or "ph". At least I know they have Internet access there.

    1. Re:Safest place to live? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      CO->Columbia
      EC->ECUADOR
      kr->Rebublic of Korea
      ve->VENEZUELA
      ph->Philipines

      Last one good, top one not.

    2. Re:Safest place to live? by October_30th · · Score: 1
      I'm moving to whatever country ends in "co", "ec", "kr", "ve", or "ph"

      You forgot the "cx".

      --
      The owls are not what they seem
    3. Re:Safest place to live? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe not a good idea, those links may be based on 'CPIP' (carrier pigeon IP)

    4. Re:Safest place to live? by GutBomb · · Score: 1

      i would consider goatse.cx to be a deadly quarrel

    5. Re:Safest place to live? by letxa2000 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      CO->Columbia

      First, it's Colombia, not Columbia. It's also one of the most dangerous countries in the world between rebel forces, drug trade, and kidnappers.

      EC->ECUADOR

      Better than Colombia, but still awfully close to the drug trade. Also has occasional skirmishes with its neighbor, Peru. Doesn't appear on the diagram, but the diagram doesn't give you the whole picture.

      kr->Rebublic of Korea

      From a military perspective this is one of the most dangerous countries in the world. They only have a million or so troops massed at the North Korea/South Korea border, ready to party.

      Far from being a safe place, it's one of the most ripe for a future war.

      ve->VENEZUELA

      Just had a coup attempt in the last month or so. There are also cross-border rebels that move between Venezuela and Colombia. Drugs is a problem as well.

      ph->Philipines

      Along with Colombia and Inodonesia, Philipines is one of the current and/or expected new hotbeds for terrorist activity now that their powwow-station in Afghanistan is pretty much toast.

      As the author of the material confessed, his analysis doesn't do much to predict wars. He thinks they are random. But, interestingly, the countries you selected as being "safe" are among the most ripe for war these days. Which confirms that the author is right: He proved nothing.

      Wars cannot be predicted by math but by logical political analysis.

    6. Re:Safest place to live? by cholokoy · · Score: 1

      I didasgree on the last one being safe having come from that country.

      Since my boyhood, war has been an on-going event between government and communists/muslim secessionists only that they are not reported in the mainstream media in the western world.

      And then usually the information about casualties in wars are often biased towards the victors as they get to write history. Case in point, when the US colonised the Philippines after the US-Spanish war, they called that war an insurrection while our patriots called it a real war but since they were the victors not many in the western world know that. Then, the deaths were estimated to be around 750,000. I doubt if this was ever included in the statistics.

      Read about the Bells of Balangiga that are now considered as war booty and enshrined at FE Warren Air Force Base in Wyoming.

      See: http://www.boondocksnet.com/centennial/balangiga.h tml

      for additional info or do a Google search.

      --
      Return the bells of Balangiga.
    7. Re:Safest place to live? by trynis · · Score: 1

      Why not try a country that's not even present on the map, e.g. SE (Sweden)?

      --
      This is not a sig.
    8. Re:Safest place to live? by danro · · Score: 1

      ve->VENEZUELA
      Just had a coup attempt in the last month or so. There are also cross-border rebels that move between Venezuela and Colombia. Drugs is a problem as well.


      Wasn't that more or less encouraged by certain crackheads in the US?
      Seemed to be all around the media recently. Anyone know anything about this?
      Wasn't the president of Venezuela democratically elected? What did he do to piss of GWB?
      What's the story about this one?

      --

      "First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
    9. Re:Safest place to live? by defile · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've never visited those countries, so I have no idea if I'm completely talking out of my ass, but you can easily make the United States look like a scary place.

      • Massive electoral fraud. The current President used his family's influence to come to power. His father was, among other things, head of the CIA, who has had plenty of experience rigging elections.
      • Millions of people are in prison over drugs, many rights are suspended simply on unfounded suspicion of drug involvement.
      • The US on average takes military action against a nation at least once every 2 years, and has kept it up since 1990.
      • Corporations seem to be able to buy legislation to suit their needs. Many of the largest scandals are closely linked to the administration: Enron, Savings & Loan, etc.
      • One of the only "civilized" nations to still have a death penalty.
      • Death penalty supporters claim that other nations don't have nearly as big a problem with murder as we do, which means we have a murder problem?
      • One out of every eight people sentenced to death is eventually cleared of all charges. How many don't make it?
      • The US has used and continues to develop weapons of mass destruction. There's a pretty good chance the Anthrax mailer got his stuff from US labs (the whole story is actually much scarier, if true). Depleted uranium shells used in the Gulf War by coalition forces are causing cancer in Iraqi civilians even today.
      • Law enforcement appears to be largely unaccountable. Still no straight answer on what down at Waco Texas and why specific other agencies were involved (such as the Delta Force), but the end result is an entire, seemingly harmless community of Christians is dead.
      • Terrorist attacks against the nation take place on an almost yearly basis.
      • No public healthcare, which most other "civilized" nations offer.
      • More than 50% of the nation's budget is allocated to the military.

      Ho hum. I get along here just fine, in spite of all of these.

    10. Re:Safest place to live? by letxa2000 · · Score: 2
      Wasn't that more or less encouraged by certain crackheads in the US? Seemed to be all around the media recently. Anyone know anything about this? Wasn't the president of Venezuela democratically elected? What did he do to piss of GWB? What's the story about this one?

      It's mostly back to conspiracy theory. The U.S. was a little to quick in NOT condemning the coup, that is true. In fact the U.S. said something like, "Well, Chavez sort of brought this on himself."

      However, I've seen absolutely no evidence that the U.S. supported the coup in any way. I currently live in Mexico and if there was any evidence of that believe me we'd hear about it down here.

      Keep in mind that Chavez, although popularly elected, is basically a thug, a punk. He's essentially Fidel Castro but elected by the people. He has no business or political experience other than that which has has obtained during his presidency. He's there because of a poor public that think he'll look out for them (questionable).

      Some people see the U.S.'s failure to condemn the coup as evidence as participating in it. I tend to believe that, more likely, the U.S. failed to condemn it because even though it WAS a coup, they were overthrowing a complete idiot that the country and the hemisphere would be better without in the long run.

    11. Re:Safest place to live? by danro · · Score: 2

      I tend to believe that, more likely, the U.S. failed to condemn it because even though it WAS a coup, they were overthrowing a complete idiot that the country and the hemisphere would be better without in the long run.

      Many people feel the same way about George Bush jr...
      You could even argue that he isn't elected in a democratic fashion.

      Still no reason for a coup in my book.

      If you are right I think the US has indeed been a bad doggie...
      ...although not as bad as I had been led to believe.

      --

      "First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
    12. Re:Safest place to live? by danro · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the clarification by the way!

      --

      "First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
    13. Re:Safest place to live? by letxa2000 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I've never visited those countries, so I have no idea if I'm completely talking out of my ass, but you can easily make the United States look like a scary place.

      Not to be insulting, but I think you DO need to visit these places before really knowing what you're talking about. I've been to both Colombia and Ecuador and currently live in Mexico (but AM an American!).

      Believe me, it is easy to be cynical being an American living in the U.S. and never leaving the country--except maybe to Cancun or a few other tourist destinations in "safe" places of the world.

      But when you've lived in one of these "other countries" for 6+ years, believe me, you will miss the petty problems the U.S. has. It really puts things in perspective.

      Massive electoral fraud.

      You haven't seen electoral fraud until you've been to Mexico--and they're supposedly "improving."

      I'm kind of tired of the whole "Bush family election fraud" conspiracy theory. I know it's a bummer your candidate lost by so little, but he did. Get over it. If there had been fraud I think they would have at least stuffed enough ballots to make the win decisive.

      (Sarcasm on) I'm sure Bush and the Republicans planned the butterfly ballots perfectly knowing that exactly X number of idiots wouldn't be able to read it and, thus, get GWB elected (sarcasm off).

      Millions of people are in prison over drugs, many rights are suspended simply on unfounded suspicion of drug involvement.

      Do you have evidence? If they were involved in drugs then I'm glad they are in prison. Sure, there may occasionally be errors. I do not believe there is any law enforcement conspiracy to wrongfully imprison anyone. What would they gain? Come on, they do their job just like the next guy.

      Believe me, I'd rather be stopped by any American FBI, State Police or Local police on a dark road in the middle of a field than by their Mexican or Colombian equiavlent. ANY DAY.

      The US on average takes military action against a nation at least once every 2 years, and has kept it up since 1990.

      Being the last remaining superpower is a bummer sometimes. I think we got involved in a few conflicts that weren't our business while Clinton was in power. But Iraq? Afghanistan? Totally justified and our interests were threatend.

      Corporations seem to be able to buy legislation to suit their needs. Many of the largest scandals are closely linked to the administration: Enron, Savings & Loan, etc.

      There are some cases of corporations having too much power. They are vocal.

      I've said it once and I'll say it again: If corporations or interest groups have too much power it is because WE THE PEOPLE aren't doing our job and keeping our congress-critters on a leash. We have no-one to blame but ourselves.

      One of the only "civilized" nations to still have a death penalty

      Yeah, it's so much more civilized to throw them in a dungeon and throw away the key... but pay $50k/year to do it.

      The US has used and continues to develop weapons of mass destruction.

      Nukes, yes.

      There's a pretty good chance the Anthrax mailer got his stuff from US labs (the whole story is actually much scarier, if true).

      Yeah, he probably did. Does that bother me? No. It bothers me that he hasn't been caught but I really could care less whether he got it in the U.S. or in Afghanistan.

      Depleted uranium shells used in the Gulf War by coalition forces are causing cancer in Iraqi civilians even today.

      Link/source?

      Law enforcement appears to be largely unaccountable.

      Visit the countries previously mentioned. Believe me, you'll praise U.S. law enforcement.

      Still no straight answer on what down at Waco Texas and why specific other agencies were involved (such as the Delta Force), but the end result is an entire, seemingly harmless community of Christians is dead.

      Yeah, a bunch of harmless Christians with heavy artillery. Unless you buy into the whole conspiracy theory that weapons were placed there after the fact. Which would mean the government killed off that sect because.... why exactly??

      Terrorist attacks against the nation take place on an almost yearly basis.

      Yearly? I remember the original WTC attack. Then Oklahoma, then the final WTC? Did I miss any others?

      Much better than, say, Israel that measures their terrorist attacks by the day or week rather than the year.

      No public healthcare, which most other "civilized" nations offer.

      You refer to the quasi-capitalist European nations with confiscatory levels of taxation?

      I agree we ought to do something about health care for those that don't have insurance. I think we can and will. But a national healthcare system for the entire country? No thank you, I'd rather pay.

      More than 50% of the nation's budget is allocated to the military.

      50%? Please check that number again. Even these guys (that appear to probably be anti-military) only cite 23.7%.

      I would invite you, in all seriousness, to live in a foreign country for a few years. Not Canada. Not the UK. A "typical" foreign country such as Mexico. Believe me, you'll more than appreciate what we've got in the U.S. Big time.

    14. Re:Safest place to live? by HiThere · · Score: 2

      ... (Sarcasm on) I'm sure Bush and the Republicans planned the butterfly ballots perfectly knowing that exactly X number of idiots wouldn't be able to read it and, thus, get GWB elected (sarcasm off).

      They didn't need to plan the ballot to take advantage of it. And they did orchestrate the miscellaneous unannounced moving of polling places and blocking of access.

      ...Do you have evidence? If they were involved in drugs then I'm glad they are in prison. Sure, there may occasionally be errors. I do not believe there is any law enforcement conspiracy to wrongfully imprison anyone. What would they gain?

      Due to an interesting change in the laws, if you accuse someone of drug trafficing, then you get to seize any of their property that you claim might have been involved. This makes it a bit difficult to hire a decent lawyer. And you don't get the property back unless you are found not guilty (if then, the record keeping is often sloppy). This means that if you fight it you can't pay for a decent lawyer, and if you plea bargain, they get to keep your stuff. And sell it. The individual cops may not get to keep things (but see the note about bookkeeping), but their organization does.

      This is a situation that practically begs for corruption. The evidence that I have seen is equivocal, but to claim that, at least in some places, corruption is routine would not be contradicted by any facts that I know.

      ...I've said it once and I'll say it again: If corporations or interest groups have too much power it is because WE THE PEOPLE aren't doing our job and keeping our congress-critters on a leash. We have no-one to blame but ourselves.

      Have you looked at the cost of running an election campaign? I couldn't afford to, could you? I could about run for dog-catcher. The selection of candidates that I am offered is, speaking frankly, lousy. The best choice I've seen in 15 years has been between bad and worse. Frequently it's been "which of these dispicable *** will you vote for?". Frequently it's been so bad that I've picked other, because voting for either of the top two would really have been throwing my vote away. I always vote. But I don't vote for someone I can't stomach just because he might win. I'm not that uncaring.

      ...Nukes, yes.
      And others. I suspect that it also develops biological weapons. They deny it, but they won't let anyone they can't control inspect. So, there's no real proof that I know of, but I suspect. And they admit to various others. E.g., star wars (which, I'll admit, will probably use nukes. But which is also a first strike weapon, not just a defense.)

      ...Yeah, a bunch of harmless Christians with heavy artillery. Unless you buy into the whole ...
      Well, not totally harmless, but I have seen no evidence to justify massive assault on them. Yes, they had a heavy bunker system. So? Yes they expected that the government would attack them. So? Were they wrong?
      They were socially maladjusted, and had a paranoid attitude about the government. So? This doesn't sound to me like it's even a crime of any sort, much less a justification for roasting everyone alive. Which the government was responsible for, whether they actually did the deed themselves or not.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    15. Re:Safest place to live? by Tardigrade · · Score: 1

      Have you looked at the cost of running an election campaign? I couldn't afford to, could you?

      My father ran for and was elected to the Bremerton School Board by ~54%. He paid ZERO money on his campaign, and received ZERO campaign contributions (though some people offered). There are ways to get elected to office that don't involve money or corruption.

    16. Re:Safest place to live? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My father ran for and was elected to the Bremerton School Board by ~54%. He paid ZERO money on his campaign, and received ZERO campaign contributions (though some people offered). There are ways to get elected to office that don't involve money or corruption.

      There's a big difference between a school board and a country, especially one that claims to be the world's only super-power.

      One helps govern a closed society of a few hundred students and a few dozen teachers within well-established parameters (county, state and federal laws) and the other directly shapes a nation of 300 million, and indirectly shapes the lives of billions.

      Getting elected to a school board is relatively simple and takes few resources. Getting elected to the US Sentate or Congress is a lot harder, and takes a lot of money and effort.

      How many people's votes did your Dad need to win his seat? And how many did your Congressman need? How many people out there are on school boards? And how many people are there in Congress?

      Trying to compare one with the other is like trying to compare an anthill with a mountain.

    17. Re:Safest place to live? by defile · · Score: 2

      But when you've lived in one of these "other countries" for 6+ years, believe me, you will miss the petty problems the U.S. has. It really puts things in perspective.

      Oh, I'm the first to admit that our problems seem petty when most of the world lives in squalor and poverty. You have people here who are allergic to food. I bet hungry people aren't allergic to anything. But nonetheless, they are still problems, and they are relevant to our lives since we do live in a different world.

      Massive electoral fraud.

      I'm kind of tired of the whole "Bush family election fraud" conspiracy theory. I know it's a bummer your candidate lost by so little, but he did. Get over it. If there had been fraud I think they would have at least stuffed enough ballots to make the win decisive.

      You really ought to not assume who my candidate was, I wasn't any more interested in Gore than I was Bush. In any case, try bushneverwonflorida.com makes for some good reading. Also try Stupid White Men, by Michael Moore.

      One of the only "civilized" nations to still have a death penalty

      Yeah, it's so much more civilized to throw them in a dungeon and throw away the key... but pay $50k/year to do it.

      You didn't quote where I said 1 out of every 8 people sentenced to die has been later released with all charges dropped. It seems insane to insist on an irreversible form of punishment with such a discomforting error rate.

      Depleted uranium shells used in the Gulf War by coalition forces are causing cancer in Iraqi civilians even today.

      Link/source?

      Is the BBC reputable enough? http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsi d_1873000/1873534.stm

      No public healthcare, which most other "civilized" nations offer.

      You refer to the quasi-capitalist European nations with confiscatory levels of taxation?

      I agree we ought to do something about health care for those that don't have insurance. I think we can and will. But a national healthcare system for the entire country? No thank you, I'd rather pay.

      Have you ever hunted for a health care provider? What a miserable way to spend your time. I'm all for paying a little more to get quality service, but it just isn't there. I still haven't been able to decide on a company for my business.

      With public health care you at least don't run a risk of missing some detail in the contract that leaves you without coverage if you have a serious problem. Having that option to fall back on is something I'd gladly pay for in taxes.

      Still no straight answer on what down at Waco Texas and why specific other agencies were involved (such as the Delta Force), but the end result is an entire, seemingly harmless community of Christians is dead.

      Yeah, a bunch of harmless Christians with heavy artillery. Unless you buy into the whole conspiracy theory that weapons were placed there after the fact. Which would mean the government killed off that sect because.... why exactly??

      I just said there were a lot of questions unanswered about the whole ordeal. Which is worrisome. Here's an article written by a survivor. http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/09/09/waco/

      The US has used and continues to develop weapons of mass destruction.

      Nukes, yes.

      You say that like it's no big deal. What possible use could we have for a nuclear arsenal that could annihilate the planet with plenty to spare? Why would anyone feel that is acceptable?

      My girlfriend is bothering me so I'm cutting this short. I'll probably respond to the rest later.

    18. Re:Safest place to live? by defile · · Score: 2

      To continue...

      Millions of people are in prison over drugs, many rights are suspended simply on unfounded suspicion of drug involvement.

      Do you have evidence? If they were involved in drugs then I'm glad they are in prison. Sure, there may occasionally be errors. I do not believe there is any law enforcement conspiracy to wrongfully imprison anyone. What would they gain? Come on, they do their job just like the next guy.

      Our prison population is ridiculously large. We have more people in prison than China does (although China is admittedly much more quick to execute). Surely you don't believe that every single pot smoking hippy deserves 2 years to life?

      Your argument seems to support imprisoning drug users and drug dealers, which is strange because your other arguments focus on personal responsibility without government involvement. Shouldn't people be allowed to smoke or inject whatever they want?

      Also, as another poster pointed out, plain suspicion (which could be as much as an anonymous unsubstantiated tip, for those of you who like playing pranks) is enough to have your assets seized. It was certainly enough to give police a warrant to make a no-knock-guns-drawn-raid on a residence.

      The US on average takes military action against a nation at least once every 2 years, and has kept it up since 1990.

      Being the last remaining superpower is a bummer sometimes. I think we got involved in a few conflicts that weren't our business while Clinton was in power. But Iraq? Afghanistan? Totally justified and our interests were threatend.

      Overthrowing democratically elected governments in 20 banana republics over the last 50 years to install military dictatorships is an interest of ours that I'd rather went unserved.

      I don't see how anyone who is aware of the facts behind the Iraq/Kuwait conflict can say that the US had any justification to direct such a huge military campaign with consequences that affect the world to this day.

      Afghanistan? Oh, I guess. But just remember when we fund terrorists like the Northern Alliance, the correct term is "freedom fighters". Just like Osama bin Laden and his cronies were freedom fighters when we armed them to oust the USSR. I can see how this could lead to an unfavorable impression of us.

      Corporations seem to be able to buy legislation to suit their needs. Many of the largest scandals are closely linked to the administration: Enron, Savings & Loan, etc.

      I've said it once and I'll say it again: If corporations or interest groups have too much power it is because WE THE PEOPLE aren't doing our job and keeping our congress-critters on a leash. We have no-one to blame but ourselves.

      So what part have I said about how this makes living here slightly unsettling is untrue? Am I supposed to be comforted because WE THE PEOPLE are OK with it?

      There's a pretty good chance the Anthrax mailer got his stuff from US labs (the whole story is actually much scarier, if true).

      Yeah, he probably did. Does that bother me? No. It bothers me that he hasn't been caught but I really could care less whether he got it in the U.S. or in Afghanistan.

      The chances are pretty good that the FBI knows exactly who he is, where he got his Anthrax, and even where he's living right now.

      His name is Dr. Philip Zack. Google search it. He was a research scientist in a biochem lab who was fired for harassing a coworker who hails from (I think) Egypt. A few weeks after he was recorded sneaking into the lab, and coincidentally some Anthrax was missing.

      After the Anthrax letters were mailed out, he attempted to frame his ex-coworker who he was fired for harassing. The FBI questioned the poor fellow and determined that he had nothing to do with it. Oh, also, Dr. Philip Zack is apparantly a loudmouthed Muslim-hating zionist. Some questions you might ask: Why was he allowed to get his hands on Anthrax? Why hasn't the FBI arrested this man? Why would a Zionist send Anthrax to democrats and the media with letters preaching hate against the US, Israel, and praising Allah? The FBI has officially stated to know the mailer's identity but are hesitant to act on it for some undisclosed reason. It has since been ignored by the popular media.

      Spooked?

      There's plenty of reasons to distrust our government and not feel comfortable living in the US.

      I mean, just ask a Native American if they trust the US Government. Or a Japanese family that was living here during WW2.

      More than 50% of the nation's budget is allocated to the military.

      50%? Please check that number again. Even these guys [fcnl.org] (that appear to probably be anti-military) only cite 23.7%.

      http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2003/bud3 4. html I'm only an amateur accountant, but check out the table titled "Table S-7. Discretionary Budget Authority by Agency". Defense has about 49% of the budget, not counting whatever other agencies contribute towards the "War On Terrorism".

    19. Re:Safest place to live? by letxa2000 · · Score: 2
      You really ought to not assume who my candidate was, I wasn't any more interested in Gore than I was Bush. In any case, try bushneverwonflorida.com makes for some good reading. Also try Stupid White Men, by Michael Moore.

      You are right, I shouldn't have assumed who you voted for. I actually thought of that right after you posted.

      That said, I'm just not fond of any arguement, Democrat or Republican, that resorts to election fraud to refute an election. I believe we have much less election fraud than most countries. That said, I'm sure we have it. But I also believes it "comes out in the wash." In any given election some percentage will be fraud, the rest will be legitimate. Saying Bush was elected due to fraud is only a worthwhile discussion if we're willing to accept Clinton was elected because of fraud--there certainly was fraud in both.

      The difference, granted, is that perhaps this time the amount of fraud was larger than the actual margins of the two candidates so it became a factor. But fraud is inherent in any system, just as piracy is a cost of doing business. It's a fact of life. All you can try to do is minimize it, but don't dwell on it when inherent defects always present in the system happen to affect the outcome from time to time.

      You didn't quote where I said 1 out of every 8 people sentenced to die has been later released with all charges dropped. It seems insane to insist on an irreversible form of punishment with such a discomforting error rate.

      Maybe, maybe not. I have not researched this lately. Of those 1 out of 8, I'd like to know how many were completely exhonerated of their crime and how many eventually got off on technical appeals, etc.

      That said, perhaps we need to make some improvements in the justice process. I'd be for that. I might even be willing to suspend the death penalty for some time while the system is overhauled. But, in principle, I am in favor of the death penalty. Let's just make sure we're executing the right people.

      You: Depleted uranium shells...
      Me: Link/source? You: Is the BBC reputable enough?

      Probably. I'll check out. That said, they shouldn't have invaded Kuwait.

      Me: But a national healthcare system for the entire country? No thank you, I'd rather pay.
      You: Have you ever hunted for a health care provider? What a miserable way to spend your time.

      Agreed. But have you ever stood in line to be waited on by a nationalized healthcare provider? What a miserable way to spend your time.

      With public health care you at least don't run a risk of missing some detail in the contract that leaves you without coverage if you have a serious problem. Having that option to fall back on is something I'd gladly pay for in taxes.

      It's a matter of quality. The nationalized healthcare systems I've seen are both very inefficient (huge wait times to get ANY of your guaranteed medical care), unreliable (don't have the medication you need "this week" or give you the wrong medication), and downright dangerous (many people from nationalized health care countries go to the U.S. for major treatment).

      If that's the kind of medical service you want, more power to you. It's not the kind I want.

      Me: Which would mean the government killed off that sect because.... why exactly??
      You: I just said there were a lot of questions unanswered about the whole ordeal. Which is worrisome.

      There may be unanswered questions. But I stopped LOOKING for conspiracy theories years ago. It was a fun pasttime when I was younger. I have come to believe that the most logical, non-conspiracy explanation is usually the right one. For all the bads of the U.S. government, I just don't see them as having any particular interest in bothering truly peaceful Chrisitans that aren't do anything. I just don't see a motivation. I do, however, see a motivation for survivors of the incident to try to paint themselves as a little more pure than they perhaps were.

      Again, you can look for conspiracies if you want. Perhaps one of them will turn out to be true. Most, I think, are better taken at face value.

      You say that like it's no big deal. What possible use could we have for a nuclear arsenal that could annihilate the planet with plenty to spare? Why would anyone feel that is acceptable?

      Because it's a policy that's worked for 50+ years. It got us through perhaps the potentially most dangerous period in world history--the cold war.

      Do I want them to be used? No. Do I think that having them tends to insure peace? Yes.

  19. The Slashdot Effect at work... by RazorJ_2000 · · Score: 1

    Shit. /.'ed in under 10min. I swear that some people just wanna see their server collapse on purpose...


    --
    pi=sigma{n:0-infinity}[(1/16)^n][(4/(8n+1))-(2/(8n +4))-(1/ (8n+5))-(1/(8n+6))]
    1. Re: The Slashdot Effect at work... by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1


      > Shit. /.'ed in under 10min. I swear that some people just wanna see their server collapse on purpose...

      Rob runs a protection racket; if they don't pay up, he links to a story at their site.

      That the real reason we get repeat stories on Slashdot: some of them foo's are too hard headed to pay up even after they see what Rob can do to them, so they get a second dose.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  20. Nerf America! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    NERF AMERICA!!! and their little inbred president too

    I second that!

    Their superior intellect will be no match for our puny nerf weapons.

  21. Another Repost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    Repeat so there is 625 + 25 + 1
    And keep repeating until slashdot has been DoSED

  22. Data covers too much, too old by mybecq · · Score: 5, Informative

    Although this diagram looks nice, it doesn't present a clear view of what is happening now. It consists of all conflicts between countries from Richardson's statistics (1820 - 1950), with refinements from Wilkinson.

    Consider the graph (when it eventually comes up). All the red-lines represent Category 7, which is only the two world wars (the most recent of which was 50+ years ago). Category 6 is for deaths of from 500,000 to 2,000,000.

    It would be nice to have information regarding something in more recent history, such as the last 10 - 20 years.

    1. Re:Data covers too much, too old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would be nice to have information regarding something in more recent history, such as the last 10 - 20 years.

      If wishes were fishes, we'd all cast nets. ;)

    2. Re:Data covers too much, too old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      If wishes were fishes, we'd all cast nets.

      Aren't nets woven?

  23. New Zeland is at war with Japan? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone have the 411 here??

    1. Re:New Zeland is at war with Japan? by Aiku1337 · · Score: 1

      WWII, I think. Didn't New Zeland officially declare war against them? Or something. I don't know, it sounds like something I've read though.

    2. Re:New Zeland is at war with Japan? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah your right, It's too bad the title of the chart was "January-February, 2002 Statistics of Deadly Quarrels"

      It certainly makes you think this is conflict that occurred from Jan-Feb of this year. I wonder what the diagram of that would look like.

  24. Heh, that .CO place looks safe... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shame that image isn't available in a higher resolution. This could be a good use for flash even - mouse-over the country to see the links, instead of the current mess.

  25. US by crawdaddy · · Score: 0

    I think the US should have a much bigger spot in the picture because we're much better than everyone else and have kicked so much more ass! Also, this is a good tool to show which companies aren't pulling their own weight in wars! Not to point fingers at anyone *cough*Ecuador*cough* but there are some major slackers in that map!

  26. Conflict breeds Evolution by RazorJ_2000 · · Score: 1

    Actually, the pretty picture does appear to suggest that my overall theory that Evolution is best caused by continual Conflict is essentially correct.

    Now, if only I can convince everyone that the separation of State, Justice, and Religion is the only way to run a nation then we'll all be in a relatively happier place...



    --
    pi=sigma{n:0-infinity}[(1/16)^n][(4/(8n+1))-(2/(8n +4))-(1/ (8n+5))-(1/(8n+6))]
    1. Re:Conflict breeds Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're basically siding with the Shadows? (B5 reference, for those who don't get it)

  27. 've' might not be safe for long... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Venezuela just had a partially U.S.-backed coup there in the last month. While American allies are letting little girls die in burning schools because they don't wear proper headdress, Bush has decided people should know about Pres. Chavez undermining the institutions of democracy. Chavez himself thinks it won't be long before the U.S. discovers 'evidence' of Bin Laden taking haven there.

    Besides, programmers only earn about $300 USD a month there.

    1. Re:'ve' might not be safe for long... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      American allies aren't letting little girls die anywhere. The stupid fuckers like you that are in that retarded nation are letting them die in schoolhouse fires.

      Solve your own civil problems and solve them with bloodshed just as we Americans did a long time ago. It's time you people grew up and took responsibility for your own problems.


    2. Re:'ve' might not be safe for long... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      American allies aren't letting little girls die anywhere.

      Sure about that?

    3. Re:'ve' might not be safe for long... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is right mate. Take responsability for your own problems, America patriotic duty is to suck you dry and abuse their leverage in the world, not to babysit you. If you expect more than that you are really retarded like the above poster said.

    4. Re:'ve' might not be safe for long... by booterror · · Score: 1

      It's too bad that the media in the USA, aren't showing the docu's that are being shown here in the Netherlands.They are very interesting (and backed with proof & secret camera footage).They really show the corrupt nature of the US and the so called 'we are better than anybody else'(yeah right!) attitude.

  28. Safest place to live aren't on the map by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    CH == Confederation Helvetica == Switzerland isn't even on the map...

    1. Re:Safest place to live aren't on the map by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      > CH == Confederation Helvetica

      They named a country after a font? Cool...

      .fr - is that the country of Frutiger?

      .ar - must be the Arial Republic

    2. Re:Safest place to live aren't on the map by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      .ar = Aryan Nation

    3. Re:Safest place to live aren't on the map by leviramsey · · Score: 1

      You know why Switzerland is safe? Simple: they spend money on their defense (as opposed to offense). Every household has a machine gun issued to it by the government. They have a network of underground tunnels where they keep all sorts of goodies. They maintain a top-notch air force. The reason no one fucks with them is because a) Switzerland doesn't go out of their way to piss other people off and b) if you invaded Switzerland, you would have to fight for every last foot, over some of the roughest terrain on earth. In short, messing with the Swiss is foolhardy.

      The US should look to Switzerland for inspiration.

    4. Re:Safest place to live aren't on the map by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah! Let's see how fast we can make Florida or Kansas some of the "roughest terrain on earth."

      Look, bub, just 'cause some goober says some weapons are for defense don't mean they can't be used offensively.

      The US has a bunch of international interests -- economic, industrial, political, military, etc -- just up and pulling out could do more harm -- to both sides of the deal -- than good. The Swiss can afford to be neutral because they generally aren't deeply involved in global affairs.

  29. I didn't see anything about by JeanBaptiste · · Score: 5, Interesting

    completely one sided wars, like Iraq v US (round 1)
    wouldn't that be a high magnitude for Iraq and a low magnitude for the US?

    and yes I do know that this study did not include that war... were there any completely one sided wars involved in the time frame studied?

    1. Re:I didn't see anything about by Frank+Sullivan · · Score: 2

      I don't know if he counted them, but yes, there were many one-sided wars through the 19th and 20th centuries. All it requires is a vast technological difference between one side and the other. Good old-fashioned imperialist subjugation of Africa, Asia, and the Americas largely consisted of one-sided slaughters, usually those with guns and horses versus those without.

      --
      Hand me that airplane glue and I'll tell you another story.
    2. Re:I didn't see anything about by Stonehand · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In most one-sided wars of acquisition (instead of punishment or destruction), you would expect the losing side to capitulate rather quickly and probably suffer not that many casualties. Belgium, for instance, probably did not suffer huge casualties against the German invasion in absolute terms (which the study uses); it did not, AFAIK, have a massive army with which to have massive losses, nor did the Germans try particularly hard to obliterate the Belgian citizenry.

      (Compare to the German-Russian conflict, where massive losses were pretty much inevitable because both military machines were of such enormity, and neither's government had any intention of backing down quickly...)

      Iraq was an odd case because it had a quite large, as measured in persons, but their training, morale and equipment were quite deficient.

      --
      Only the dead have seen the end of war.
    3. Re:I didn't see anything about by ScuzzMonkey · · Score: 2

      I think he's going on war being a lose/lose proposition. Why have two different magnitudes for the sides when all the dead people are... well, all dead? Total effect on humankind, or something of that sort.

      Regardless, on a hunch I would say that tremendously one-sided wars are probably lower magnitude than when the sides are evenly matched. Nothing causes casualties like a slugfest where neither side is backing down. Armies that break quickly and surrender take fewer casualties than those that stand and fight it out (excepting ethnic or religious conflicts).

      --
      No relation to Happy Monkey
    4. Re:I didn't see anything about by Malcontent · · Score: 2

      IIRC we killed about a 100,000 people in iraq. I don't know how many we killed in afghanistan (only we had free press in this country we migh have had some numbers) but I'd venture to say it's impossible to bomb continuously for a month not kill at least 30 thousand people.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

    5. Re:I didn't see anything about by ScuzzMonkey · · Score: 2

      Sure; not trying to say no one died, just hypothesizing that it would have been more had it been a more even match. I think you're way off on your numbers as far as equating months of bombardment with certain amounts of casualties. It has a lot more to do with targets, tonnage, and rules of engagement. If they're hitting cities (like in Iraq) I would expect it would be higher, mostly rocks (like Afghanistan) a lot lower. And the reason we don't know, of course, has much more to do with lack of a free press there than here. If you're expecting some guy speculating from the anchor desk of ABC to give you good numbers on something happening half a world away that he can't see, of course you're not going to get accuracy--which is not to say he can't make up any numbers he'd like, high or low, which sounds pretty free to me. :)

      --
      No relation to Happy Monkey
    6. Re:I didn't see anything about by Malcontent · · Score: 2

      Why would the United States spend billions of dollars and bomb rocks? What a silly thing to say. Bombing was targetted at the (so called) soldiers.

      BTW nobody in afghanistan was impeding the movement of the press except the US military. Just like nobody is impeding the movement of the press in palestine except the israeli army. The reason we don't have numbers is because the US military controlled what you are allowed to see and hear. They kept a tight lid on the press in afghanistan and gave the public the rummy show stand up act to keep them occupied.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

    7. Re:I didn't see anything about by ScuzzMonkey · · Score: 2

      I didn't say they were targetting rocks, just hitting them, and I said it because A: it was a colorful metaphor and B: because (and I'm surprised this has escaped your notice, given your obvious bias) they make mistakes. And there is a difference between dispersed targets (a lot of guys in caves) and clustered targets (a lot of guys in urban areas). And I won't even go into the different types of bombs and bombing that might be used and how that affects casualty rates, since you don't seem very interested in hearing anything that doesn't reinforce your own view of the situation.

      Your assertion about Afghanistan and the press is misplaced; specifically, it should be placed in Kuwait/Iraq and moved back about ten years. There haven't been any significant restrictions on press movement in Afghanistan since this thing started, and if you leaf back through the various articles covering the last several months you would see that--all those reporters getting killed by bandits, wearing burqas to blend in to the populace, and generally spending more time filing articles about their personal safety and not about the battles--they are not there under control of anyone's military. Some of them were there before there was any real military presence. Their lack of freedom has more to do with cultural issues than any sort of control problem. I would suggest that you're so caught up in your agenda that you're taking the conditions of Kosovo and the Gulf War and imposing them here to stoke your somewhat weak arguments. However, I'm not interested in discussing the conspiracy theory of the week--I think this study, the numbers, and the implications, are intriguing, and are so without dragging any tired old over-simplified, anti-American diatribes into it. I have no interest in defending the American military's mistakes, but they just don't have anything to do with what this conversation was originally about. If you can't even be bothered to address the basic thesis (even matches=more casualties) then this is just a waste of bandwidth. Thanks for your time anyway.

      --
      No relation to Happy Monkey
    8. Re:I didn't see anything about by WIAKywbfatw · · Score: 2

      didn't see anything about completely one sided wars, like Iraq v US (round 1)

      And there was me thinking that it was a coalition of countries vs Iraq. Only 12 years on and already it's being revised.

      You remind me of a guy who I talked to on IRC a couple of months back who swore blind that the US was actively involved in World War II before Pearl Harbor forced its hand. Any documentary evidence I produced about the US policy of isolationism, etc was just dismissed as "commie propoganda".

      The guy even went as far as saying that only US troops were involved in D-Day (all those British and Canadian troops must have crossed the Channel on a collective day trip) and that they marched into Berlin and ended the war in Europe too (neatly omitting the Russian contribution as well).

      Oh, and if you think that a war that saw half a million US troops deployed half the way around the world is "low magnitude" then you've got a really strange idea of scale. Other than WWII, Korea and Vietnam, the Gulf War is easily the biggest conflict in which the US has played an significant part.

      Bottom line: get the facts straight please.

      --

      "Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
    9. Re:I didn't see anything about by JeanBaptiste · · Score: 1

      thats a lot of words to put in my mouth, however

      in the terms of the study the magnitude is of people killed, not troops deployed.

      Bottom line: get your facts straight, maybe next time your stupidity wont show so much

    10. Re:I didn't see anything about by Malcontent · · Score: 2

      " If you can't even be bothered to address the basic thesis (even matches=more casualties) then this is just a waste of bandwidth."

      The problem with the thesis (or any arguments against the thesis) is that you need real numbers. You seem to presume that the military was perfectly happy dropping bombs and not killing people. A position I find ridiculus. We bombed for months and it should be safe to presume that we killed tens of thousands of people. I really don't see your "accident" point at all. Sure several thousand innocent civilians died but the casualy numbers include the "so called" soldiers too. If we killed over three thousand innocent people we probably killed over thirty thousand people alltogether. If that's not the case then our 10 to 1 civilians to soldier killed ratio is more like 5/1 or even 2/1. Exactly how many people do you think were killed in afghanistan anyways.

      Which brings me to my second point. We don't know the answer for sure because the press is unwilling, unable, or is actively prevented form telling us. So we have to guess using cojectures like "surely they killed more then 10 soldiers for every innocent civilan".

      You can't make a thesis, defend one, or dispute one without facts. All we have here are conjectures. Nevertheless it makes sense that we killed at least thirty thousand humans in afghanistan in exchange for less then a dozen US soldiers killed. That's pretty uneven and it's a significant body count.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

    11. Re:I didn't see anything about by junkgrep · · Score: 1

      Not to get into the silly debate about the 10s of thousands supposedly killed but I just thought I'd point out several things.

      First off, even if journalists had had free reign, they never could have gotten anything approaching a meaningful causality count under those conditions. Even the NA or the Taliban probably couldn't have. The U.S. military counts, provided they aren't fudged up or down for some purpose, are the best chance of a fairly accurate count.

      Second off, U.S. journalists WEREN'T very active during the campaign, and they were basically told to sit tight by the military. However, there isn't much a causal relationship between those two points. It wasn't a matter of the military powerfully hamstringing their efforts: anyone who really tried or cared had near free reign. There was an excellent article on Salon about a famous travel writer who had been all over Afghanistan during the campaign visiting a huge gathering of reporters that were basically hanging out where the military told them to stay. When the travel reporter told them that he had basically gone where he pleased, they were flabbergasted: they hadn't even thought to try.

      So it's more a matter of complacency than anything else. Reporters and the U.S. media have slipped into a rather standard routine: most of the media basically just waiting to be handfed exclusives and info, while just a few field teams get spotty "exclusive" footage basically from the sidelines: butnot enough to get a good sense of much. This is just cheaper and safer overall.

  30. Wanted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could 25 people repost this 5 times each?
    I want to see Slashdot get slashdotted with crap!

  31. Shouldn't this be scaled to the population? by rebill · · Score: 5, Interesting

    One comment at the end of the article caught my attention:

    We now have it in our power to have a magnitude-8 or -9 war. In the aftermath of such an event, no one would say that war is demographically irrelevant. After a war of magnitude 9.8, no one would say anything at all.

    This points out a comparison problem within the original research - it does not take into account the population increases over time. For example, somewhere in the mid-1600s, London had a population of 600,000 people, while it currently has a population near 7,000,000. That is the difference between a magnitude-5.7 and a magnitude-6.8 event, using the given scale.

    Would factoring in the population growth curve enhance or reduce the apparent randomness of the data?

    --

    Chivalry is not dead, it's just frequently misspelt. - M. Langley

  32. For those of us who haven't memorized them: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  33. Wanted (repost, per your request sir) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could 5 people repost this post 5 times each so there will be 25 + 1 Copies of this post.
    Repeat so there is 625 + 25 + 1
    And keep repeating until slashdot has been DoSED

  34. Wanted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    625 people to repost this post 625 times each!

  35. Battle Estimate by Mittermeyer · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is THE battle analysis tool. Trevor Dupuy was the master of prediction. Note the $93,000 price tag.

    Remember, this is a tool for the operational level. The article is discussing macrosocietal conflict.

    --
    ________________________________________ History Must Not Fall Into The Wrong Hands ___________________________________
  36. The text of the article (lameness filter SUCKS) by 3ryon · · Score: 4, Informative

    Computing Science
    January-February, 2002

    Statistics of Deadly Quarrels

    Brian Hayes

    Note: This document is available in other formats.

    Look upon the phenomenon of war with dispassion and detachment, as if observing the follies of another species on a distant planet: From such an elevated view, war seems a puny enough pastime. Demographically, it hardly matters. War deaths amount to something like 1 percent of all deaths; in many places, more die by suicide, and still more in accidents. If saving human lives is the great desideratum, then there is more to be gained by prevention of drowning and auto wrecks than by the abolition of war.

    But no one on this planet sees war from such a height of austere equanimity. Even the gods on Olympus could not keep from meddling in earthly conflicts. Something about the clash of arms has a special power to rouse the stronger emotions--pity and love as well as fear and hatred--and so our response to battlefield killing and dying is out of all proportion to its rank in tables of vital statistics. When war comes, it muscles aside the calmer aspects of life; no one is unmoved. Most of us choose one side or the other, but even among those who merely want to stop the fighting, feelings run high. ("Antiwar militant" is no oxymoron.)

    The same inflamed passions that give war its urgent human interest also stand in the way of scholarly or scientific understanding. Reaching impartial judgment about rights and wrongs seems all but impossible. Stepping outside the bounds of one's own culture and ideology is also a challenge--not to mention the bounds of one's time and place. We tend to see all wars through the lens of the current conflict, and we mine history for lessons convenient to the present purpose.

    One defense against such distortions is the statistical method of gathering data about many wars from many sources, in the hope that at least some of the biases will balance out and true patterns will emerge. It's a dumb, brute-force approach and not foolproof, but nothing else looks more promising. A pioneer of this quantitative study of war was Lewis Fry Richardson, the British meteorologist whose ambitious but premature foray into numerical weather forecasting I described in this space a year ago. Now seems a good time to consider the other half of Richardson's lifework, on the mathematics of armed conflict.

    Wars and Peaces

    Richardson was born in 1881 to a prosperous Quaker family in the north of England. He studied physics with J. J. Thomson at Cambridge, where he developed expertise in the numerical solution of differential equations. Such approximate methods are a major mathematical industry today, but at that time they were not a popular subject or a shrewd career choice. After a series of short-term appointments--well off the tenure track--Richardson found a professional home in weather research, making notable contributions to the theory of atmospheric turbulence. Then, in 1916, he resigned his post to serve in France as a driver with the Friends' Ambulance Unit. Between tours of duty at the front, he did most of the calculations for his trial weather forecast. (The forecast was not a success, but the basic idea was sound, and all modern weather prediction relies on similar methods.)

    After the war, Richardson gradually shifted his attention from meteorology to questions of war and international relations. He found some of the same mathematical tools still useful. In particular, he modeled arms races with differential equations. The death spiral of escalation--where one country's arsenal provokes another to increase its own armament, whereupon the first nation responds by adding still more weapons--has a ready representation in a pair of linked differential equations. Richardson showed that an arms race can be stabilized only if the "fatigue and expense" of preparing for war are greater than the perceived threats from enemies. This result is hardly profound or surprising, and yet Richardson's analysis nonetheless attracted much comment (mainly skeptical), because the equations offered the prospect of a quantitative measure of war risks. If Richardson's equations could be trusted, then observers would merely need to track expenditures on armaments to produce a war forecast analogous to a weather forecast.

    Mathematical models of arms races have been further refined since Richardson's era, and they had a place in policy deliberations during the "mutually assured destruction" phase of the Cold War. But Richardson's own investigations turned in a somewhat different direction. A focus on armaments presupposes that the accumulation of weaponry is a major cause of war, or at least has a strong correlation with it. Other theories of the origin of war would emphasize different factors--the economic status of nations, say, or differences of culture and language, or the effectiveness of diplomacy and mediation. There is no shortage of such theories; the problem is choosing among them. Richardson argued that theories of war could and should be evaluated on a scientific basis, by testing them against data on actual wars. So he set out to collect such data.

    Richardson was not the first to follow this path. Several lists of wars were drawn up in the early years of the 20th century, and two more war catalogues were compiled in the 1930s and 40s by the Russian-born sociologist Pitirim A. Sorokin and by Quincy Wright of the University of Chicago. Richardson began his own collection in about 1940 and continued work on it until his death in 1953. His was not the largest data set, but it was the best suited to statistical analysis.

    Figure 1

    Richardson published some of his writings on war in journal articles and pamphlets, but his ideas became widely known only after two posthumous volumes appeared in 1960. The work on arms races is collected in Arms and Insecurity; the statistical studies are in Statistics of Deadly Quarrels. In addition, a two-volume Collected Papers was published in 1993. Most of what follows in this article comes from Statistics of Deadly Quarrels. I have also leaned heavily on a 1980 study by David Wilkinson of the University of California, Los Angeles, which presents Richardson's data in a rationalized and more readable format.

    "Thinginess Fails"

    The catalogue of conflicts in Statistics of Deadly Quarrels covers the period from about 1820 until 1950. Richardson's aim was to count all deaths during this interval caused by a deliberate act of another person. Thus he includes individual murders and other lesser episodes of violence in addition to warfare, but he excludes accidents and negligence and natural disasters. He also decided not to count deaths from famine and disease associated with war, on the grounds that multiple causes are too hard to disentangle. (Did World War I "cause" the influenza epidemic of 1918-1919?)

    The decision to lump together murder and war was meant to be provocative. To those who hold that "murder is an abominable selfish crime, but war is a heroic and patriotic adventure," Richardson replies: "One can find cases of homicide which one large group of people condemned as murder, while another large group condoned or praised them as legitimate war. Such things went on in Ireland in 1921 and are going on now in Palestine." (It's depressing that his examples, 50 years later, remain so apt.) But if Richardson dismissed moral distinctions between various kinds of killing, he acknowledged methodological difficulties. Wars are the province of historians, whereas murders belong to criminologists; statistics from the two groups are hard to reconcile. And the range of deadly quarrels lying between murder and war is even more problematic. Riots, raids and insurrections have been too small and too frequent to attract the notice of historians, but they are too political for criminologists.

    For larger wars, Richardson compiled his list by reading histories, starting with the Encyclopaedia Britannica and going on to more diverse and specialized sources. Murder data came from national crime reports. To fill in the gap between wars and murders he tried interpolating and extrapolating and other means of estimating, but he acknowledged that his results in this area were weak and incomplete. He mixed together civil and international wars in a single list, arguing that the distinction is often unclear.

    An interesting lesson of Richardson's exercise is just how difficult it can be to extract consistent and reliable quantitative information from the historical record. It seems easier to count inaccessible galaxies or invisible neutrinos than to count wars that swept through whole nations just a century ago. Of course some aspects of military history are always contentious; you can't expect all historians to agree on who started a war, or who won it. But it turns out that even more basic facts--Who were the combatants? When did the fighting begin and end? How many died?--can be remarkably hard to pin down. Lots of wars merge and split, or have no clear beginning or end. As Richardson remarks, "Thinginess fails."

    In organizing his data, Richardson borrowed a crucial idea from astronomy: He classified wars and other quarrels according to their magnitude, the base-10 logarithm of the total number of deaths. Thus a terror campaign that kills 100 has a magnitude of 2, and a war with a million casualties is a magnitude-6 conflict. A murder with a single victim is magnitude 0 (since 100=1). The logarithmic scale was chosen in large part to cope with shortcomings of available data; although casualty totals are seldom known precisely, it is usually possible to estimate the logarithm within ±0.5. (A war of magnitude 6±0.5 could have anywhere from 316,228 to 3,162,278 deaths.) But the use of logarithmic magnitudes has a psychological benefit as well: One can survey the entire spectrum of human violence on a single scale.

    Random Violence

    Richardson's war list (as refined by Wilkinson) includes 315 conflicts of magnitude 2.5 or greater (or in other words with at least about 300 deaths). It's no surprise that the two World Wars of the 20th century are at the top of this list; they are the only magnitude-7 conflicts in human history. What is surprising is the extent to which the World Wars dominate the overall death toll. Together they account for some 36 million deaths, which is about 60 percent of all the quarrel deaths in the 130-year period. The next largest category is at the other end of the spectrum: The magnitude-0 events (quarrels in which one to three people died) were responsible for 9.7 million deaths. Thus the remainder of the 315 recorded wars, along with all the thousands of quarrels of intermediate size, produced less than a fourth of all the deaths.

    Figure 2 Figure 3

    The list of magnitude-6 wars also yields surprises, although of a different kind. Richardson identified seven of these conflicts, the smallest causing half a million deaths and the largest about 2 million. Clearly these are major upheavals in world history; you might think that every educated person could name most of them. Try it before you read on. The seven megadeath conflicts listed by Richardson are, in chronological order, and using the names he adopted: the Taiping Rebellion (1851-1864), the North American Civil War (1861-1865), the Great War in La Plata (1865-1870), the sequel to the Bolshevik Revolution (1918-1920), the first Chinese-Communist War (1927-1936), the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939) and the communal riots in the Indian Peninsula (1946-1948).

    Looking at the list of 315 wars as a time series, Richardson asked what patterns or regularities could be discerned. Is war becoming more frequent, or less? Is the typical magnitude increasing? Are there any periodicities in the record, or other tendencies for the events to form clusters?

    A null hypothesis useful in addressing these questions suggests that wars are independent, random events, and on any given day there is always the same probability that war will break out. This hypothesis implies that the average number of new wars per year ought to obey a Poisson distribution, which describes how events tend to arrange themselves when each occurrence of an event is unlikely but there are many opportunities for an event to occur. The Poisson distribution is the law suitable for tabulating radioactive decays, cancer clusters, tornado touchdowns, Web-server hits and, in a famous early example, deaths of cavalrymen by horse kicks. As applied to the statistics of deadly quarrels, the Poisson law says that if p is the probability of a war starting in the course of a year, then the probability of seeing n wars begin in any one year is e-ppn/n!. Plugging some numbers into the formula shows that when p is small, years with no onsets of war are the most likely, followed by years in which a single war begins; as n grows, the likelihood of seeing a year with n wars declines steeply.

    Figure 3 compares the Poisson distribution with Richardson's data for a group of magnitude- 4 wars. The match is very close. Richardson performed a similar analysis of the dates on which wars ended--the "outbreaks of peace"--with the same result. He checked the wars on Quincy Wright's list in the same way and again found good agreement. Thus the data offer no reason to believe that wars are anything other than randomly distributed accidents.

    Richardson also examined his data set for evidence of long-term trends in the incidence of war. Although certain patterns catch the eye when the data are plotted chronologically, Richardson concluded that the trends are not clear enough to rule out random fluctuations. "The collection as a whole does not indicate any trend towards more, nor towards fewer, fatal quarrels." He did find some slight hint of "contagion": The presence of an ongoing war may to some extent increase the probability of a new war starting.

    Figure 4

    Love Thy Neighbor

    If the temporal dimension fails to explain much about war, what about spatial relations? Are neighboring countries less likely than average to wind up fighting one another, or more likely? Either hypothesis seems defensible. Close neighbors often have interests in common and so might be expected to become allies rather than enemies. On the other hand, neighbors could also be rivals contending for a share of the same resources--or maybe the people next door are just plain annoying. The existence of civil wars argues that living together is no guarantee of amity. (And at the low end of the magnitude scale, people often murder their own kin.)

    Richardson's approach to these questions had a topological flavor. Instead of measuring the distance between countries, he merely asked whether or not they share a boundary. Then, in later studies, he refined this notion by trying to measure the length of the common boundary--which led to a fascinating digression. Working with maps at various scales, Richardson paced off the lengths of boundaries and coastlines with dividers, and realized that the result depends on the setting of the dividers, or in other words on the unit of measurement. A coastline that measures 100 steps of 10 millimeters each will not necessarily measure 1,000 steps of 1 millimeter each; it is likely to be more, because the smaller units more closely follow the zigzag path of the coast. This result appeared in a somewhat out-of-the-way publication; when Benoit Mandelbrot came across it by chance, Richardson's observation became one of the ideas that inspired Mandelbrot's theory of fractals.

    During the period covered by Richardson's study there were about 60 stable nations and empires (the empires being counted for this purpose as single entities). The mean number of neighbors for these states was about six (and Richardson offered an elegant geometric argument, based on Euler's relation among the vertices, edges and faces of a polyhedron, that the number must be approximately six, for any plausible arrangement of nations). Hence if warring nations were to choose their foes entirely at random, there would be about a 10 percent chance that any pair of belligerents would turn out to be neighbors. The actual proportion of warring neighbors is far higher. Of 94 international wars with just two participants, Richardson found only 12 cases in which the two combatants had no shared boundary, suggesting that war is mostly a neighborhood affair.

    But extending this conclusion to larger and wider wars proved difficult, mainly because the "great powers" are effectively everyone's neighbor. Richardson was best able to fit the data with a rather complex model assigning different probabilities to conflicts between two great powers, between a great power and a smaller state, and between two lesser nations. But rigging up a model with three parameters for such a small data set is not very satisfying. Furthermore, Richardson concluded that "chaos" was still the predominant factor in explaining the world's larger wars: The same element of randomness seen in the time-series analysis is at work here, though "restricted by geography and modified by infectiousness."

    What about other causative factors--social, economic, cultural? While compiling his war list, Richardson noted the various items that historians mentioned as possible irritants or pacifying influences, and then he looked for correlations between these factors and belligerence. The results were almost uniformly disappointing. Richardson's own suppositions about the importance of arms races were not confirmed; he found evidence of a preparatory arms race in only 13 out of 315 cases. Richardson was also a proponent of Esperanto, but his hope that a common language would reduce the chance of conflict failed to find support in the data. Economic indicators were equally unhelpful: The statistics ratify neither the idea that war is mainly a struggle between the rich and the poor nor the view that commerce between nations creates bonds that prevent war.

    Figure 5

    The one social factor that does have some detectable correlation with war is religion. In the Richardson data set, nations that differ in religion are more likely to fight than those that share the same religion. Moreover, some sects seem generally to be more bellicose (Christian nations participated in a disproportionate number of conflicts). But these effects are not large.

    Mere Anarchy Loosed upon the World

    The residuum of all these noncauses of war is mere randomness--the notion that warring nations bang against one another with no more plan or principle than molecules in an overheated gas. In this respect, Richardson's data suggest that wars are like hurricanes or earthquakes: We can't know in advance when or where a specific event will strike, but we do know how many to expect in the long run. We can compute the number of victims; we just can't say who they'll be.

    This view of wars as random catastrophes is not a comforting thought. It seems to leave us no control over our own destiny, nor any room for individual virtue or villainy. If wars just happen, who's to blame? But this is a misreading of Richardson's findings. Statistical "laws" are not rules that govern the behavior either of nations or of individuals; they merely describe that behavior in the aggregate. A murderer might offer the defense that the crime rate is a known quantity, and so someone has to keep it up, but that plea is not likely to earn the sympathy of a jury. Conscience and personal responsibility are in no way diminished by taking a statistical view of war.

    What is depressing is that the data suggest no clear plan of action for those who want to reduce the prevalence of violence. Richardson himself was disappointed that his studies pointed to no obvious remedy. Perhaps he was expecting too much. A retired physicist reading the Encyclopaedia Britannica can do just so much toward securing world peace. But with larger and more detailed data sets, and more powerful statistical machinery, some useful lessons might emerge.

    There is now a whole community of people working to gather war data, many of whom trace their intellectual heritage back to Richardson and Quincy Wright. The largest such undertaking is the Correlates of War project, begun in the 1960s by J. David Singer of the University of Michigan. The COW catalogues, like Richardson's, begin in the post-Napoleonic period, but they have been brought up close to the present day and now list thousands of militarized disputes. Offshoots and continuations of the project are being maintained by Russell J. Leng of Middlebury College and by Stuart A. Bremer of Pennsylvania State University.

    Peter Brecke of the Georgia Institute of Technology has begun another data collection. His catalogue extends down to magnitude 1.5 (about 30 deaths) and covers a much longer span of time, back as far as A.D. 1400. The catalogue is approaching completion for 5 of 12 global regions and includes more than 3,000 conflicts. The most intriguing finding so far is a dramatic, century-long lull in the 1700s.

    Figure 6

    Even if Richardson's limited data were all we had to go on, one clear policy imperative emerges: At all costs avoid the clash of the titans. However painful a series of brushfire wars may seem to the participants, it is the great global conflagrations that threaten us most. As noted above, the two magnitude-7 wars of the 20th century were responsible for three-fifths of all the deaths that Richardson recorded. We now have it in our power to have a magnitude-8 or -9 war. In the aftermath of such an event, no one would say that war is demographically irrelevant. After a war of magnitude 9.8, no one would say anything at all.

    Bibliography

    Ashford, Oliver M. 1985. Prophet--or Professor?: The Life and Work of Lewis Fry Richardson. Bristol, Boston: Adam Hilger.

    Brecke, Peter. 1999. Violent conflicts 1400 A.D. to
    the present in different regions of the world. http://www.inta.gatech.edu/peter/PSS99_paper.html

    Cioffi-Revilla, Claudio A. 1990. The Scientific Measurement of International Conflict: Handbook of Datasets on Crises and Wars 1945-1988. Boulder and London: Lynne Reinner Publishers.

    Richardson, Lewis F. 1960. Statistics of Deadly Quarrels. Edited by Quincy Wright and C. C. Lienau. Pittsburgh: Boxwood Press.

    Richardson, Lewis F. 1960. Arms and Insecurity: A Mathematical Study of the Causes and Origins of War. Edited by Nicolas Rashevsky and Ernesto Trucco. Pittsburgh: Boxwood Press.

    Richardson, Lewis F. 1961. The problem of contiguity: An appendix to Statistics of Deadly Quarrels. Yearbook of the Society for General Systems Research, Ann Arbor, Mich., Vol. VI, pp. 140-187.

    Richardson, Lewis Fry. 1993. Collected Papers of Lewis Fry Richardson. Edited by Oliver M. Ashford, et al. New York: Cambridge University Press.

    Richardson, Stephen A. 1957. Lewis Fry Richardson (1881-1953): A personal biography. Journal of Conflict Resolution 1:300-304.

    Singer, J. David, and Melvin Small. 1972. The Wages of War, 1816-1965: A Statistical Handbook. New York: John Wiley.

    Sorokin, Pitirim A. 1937. Social and Cultural Dynamics Vol. 3: Fluctuations of Social Relationships, War, and Revolution. New York: American Book Company.

    Wilkinson, David. 1980. Deadly Quarrels: Lewis F. Richardson and the Statistical Study of War. Berkeley: University of California Press.

    Wright, Quincy. 1965. A Study of War, with a Commentary on War Since 1942. Second edition. Chicago, Ill.: University of Chicago Press.

    Copyright 2001 Brian Hayes

  37. Human Nature by PineHall · · Score: 2

    War and violence is unfortunately a part of human life. Over the centuries various groups of people have tried to create peaceful utopian societies and they have failed. The problem is human nature. Our motivations are very self-centered, without regard or consideration for the other person or country. We want our fair share and a little bit more. That is the way we humans are.

    1. Re:Human Nature by PineHall · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      I should share that I believe there is hope. While "Christians" have caused more than enough violence and war, I believe that there is a God who through Jesus Christ changes human nature. It has not always been seen in "Christians", but if you look at some of the great Christians through the centuries it can be seen. They have also influenced nonchristians, like Gandhi. It was Jesus Christ who said "turn the other cheek".

    2. Re:Human Nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      dammit all to hell... that's all very well and good, but...

      Repeat so there is 625 + 25 + 1
      And keep repeating until slashdot has been DoSED

      Lame-assed filter, fucking code : 5455433
      8787897978789

      stop me before i post again!

    3. Re:Human Nature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Most wars are fought by people who are decidedly not self centered. A soldior is willing to put him/herself in a situation where he/she is risking his life for an ideal he thinks is bigger than himself. Why would a greedy, self-centered person, such as myself, put themselves in a situation where they will be shot at?



      If the world was populated by a bunch of greedy, rational people, we would have no war.

  38. It's suckdotted: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Note: This document is available in other formats.

    Look upon the phenomenon of war with dispassion and detachment, as if observing the follies of another
    species on a distant planet: From such an elevated view, war seems a puny enough pastime. Demographically,
    it hardly matters. War deaths amount to something like 1 percent of all deaths; in many places, more die by
    suicide, and still more in accidents. If saving human lives is the great desideratum, then there is more to be
    gained by prevention of drowning and auto wrecks than by the abolition of war.

    But no one on this planet sees war from such a height of austere equanimity. Even the gods on Olympus could
    not keep from meddling in earthly conflicts. Something about the clash of arms has a special power to rouse the
    stronger emotions-pity and love as well as fear and hatred-and so our response to battlefield killing and dying is
    out of all proportion to its rank in tables of vital statistics. When war comes, it muscles aside the calmer aspects
    of life; no one is unmoved. Most of us choose one side or the other, but even among those who merely want to
    stop the fighting, feelings run high. (?Antiwar militant? is no oxymoron.)

    The same inflamed passions that give war its urgent human interest also stand in the way of scholarly or
    scientific understanding. Reaching impartial judgment about rights and wrongs seems all but impossible.
    Stepping outside the bounds of one?s own culture and ideology is also a challenge-not to mention the bounds of
    one?s time and place. We tend to see all wars through the lens of the current conflict, and we mine history for
    lessons convenient to the present purpose.

    One defense against such distortions is the statistical method of gathering data about many wars from many
    sources, in the hope that at least some of the biases will balance out and true patterns will emerge. It?s a dumb,
    brute-force approach and not foolproof, but nothing else looks more promising. A pioneer of this quantitative
    study of war was Lewis Fry Richardson, the British meteorologist whose ambitious but premature foray into
    numerical weather forecasting I described in this space a year ago. Now seems a good time to consider the
    other half of Richardson?s lifework, on the mathematics of armed conflict.

    Wars and Peaces

    Richardson was born in 1881 to a prosperous Quaker family in the north of England. He studied physics with J.
    J. Thomson at Cambridge, where he developed expertise in the numerical solution of differential equations.
    Such approximate methods are a major mathematical industry today, but at that time they were not a popular
    subject or a shrewd career choice. After a series of short-term appointments-well off the tenure
    track-Richardson found a professional home in weather research, making notable contributions to the theory of
    atmospheric turbulence. Then, in 1916, he resigned his post to serve in France as a driver with the Friends?
    Ambulance Unit. Between tours of duty at the front, he did most of the calculations for his trial weather
    forecast. (The forecast was not a success, but the basic idea was sound, and all modern weather prediction
    relies on similar methods.)

    After the war, Richardson gradually shifted his attention from meteorology to questions of war and international
    relations. He found some of the same mathematical tools still useful. In particular, he modeled arms races with
    differential equations. The death spiral of escalation-where one country?s arsenal provokes another to increase
    its own armament, whereupon the first nation responds by adding still more weapons-has a ready
    representation in a pair of linked differential equations. Richardson showed that an arms race can be stabilized
    only if the ?fatigue and expense? of preparing for war are greater than the perceived threats from enemies. This
    result is hardly profound or surprising, and yet Richardson?s analysis nonetheless attracted much comment
    (mainly skeptical), because the equations offered the prospect of a quantitative measure of war risks. If
    Richardson?s equations could be trusted, then observers would merely need to track expenditures on
    armaments to produce a war forecast analogous to a weather forecast.

    Mathematical models of arms races have been further refined since Richardson?s era, and they had a place in
    policy deliberations during the ?mutually assured destruction? phase of the Cold War. But Richardson?s own
    investigations turned in a somewhat different direction. A focus on armaments presupposes that the
    accumulation of weaponry is a major cause of war, or at least has a strong correlation with it. Other theories of
    the origin of war would emphasize different factors-the economic status of nations, say, or differences of culture
    and language, or the effectiveness of diplomacy and mediation. There is no shortage of such theories; the
    problem is choosing among them. Richardson argued that theories of war could and should be evaluated on a
    scientific basis, by testing them against data on actual wars. So he set out to collect such data.

    Richardson was not the first to follow this path. Several lists of wars were drawn up in the early years of the
    20th century, and two more war catalogues were compiled in the 1930s and 40s by the Russian-born sociologist
    Pitirim A. Sorokin and by Quincy Wright of the University of Chicago. Richardson began his own collection in
    about 1940 and continued work on it until his death in 1953. His was not the largest data set, but it was the best
    suited to statistical analysis.

    Richardson published some of his writings on war in journal articles and pamphlets, but his ideas became widely
    known only after two posthumous volumes appeared in 1960. The work on arms races is collected in Arms and
    Insecurity; the statistical studies are in Statistics of Deadly Quarrels. In addition, a two-volume Collected
    Papers was published in 1993. Most of what follows in this article comes from Statistics of Deadly Quarrels. I
    have also leaned heavily on a 1980 study by David Wilkinson of the University of California, Los Angeles, which
    presents Richardson?s data in a rationalized and more readable format.

    ?Thinginess Fails?

    The catalogue of conflicts in Statistics of Deadly Quarrels covers the period from about 1820 until 1950.
    Richardson?s aim was to count all deaths during this interval caused by a deliberate act of another person. Thus
    he includes individual murders and other lesser episodes of violence in addition to warfare, but he excludes
    accidents and negligence and natural disasters. He also decided not to count deaths from famine and disease
    associated with war, on the grounds that multiple causes are too hard to disentangle. (Did World War I ?cause?
    the influenza epidemic of 1918-1919?)

    The decision to lump together murder and war was meant to be provocative. To those who hold that ?murder is
    an abominable selfish crime, but war is a heroic and patriotic adventure,? Richardson replies: ?One can find
    cases of homicide which one large group of people condemned as murder, while another large group condoned
    or praised them as legitimate war. Such things went on in Ireland in 1921 and are going on now in Palestine.?
    (It?s depressing that his examples, 50 years later, remain so apt.) But if Richardson dismissed moral distinctions
    between various kinds of killing, he acknowledged methodological difficulties. Wars are the province of
    historians, whereas murders belong to criminologists; statistics from the two groups are hard to reconcile. And
    the range of deadly quarrels lying between murder and war is even more problematic. Riots, raids and
    insurrections have been too small and too frequent to attract the notice of historians, but they are too political for
    criminologists.

    For larger wars, Richardson compiled his list by reading histories, starting with the Encyclopaedia Britannica
    and going on to more diverse and specialized sources. Murder data came from national crime reports. To fill in
    the gap between wars and murders he tried interpolating and extrapolating and other means of estimating, but
    he acknowledged that his results in this area were weak and incomplete. He mixed together civil and
    international wars in a single list, arguing that the distinction is often unclear.

    An interesting lesson of Richardson?s exercise is just how difficult it can be to extract consistent and reliable
    quantitative information from the historical record. It seems easier to count inaccessible galaxies or invisible
    neutrinos than to count wars that swept through whole nations just a century ago. Of course some aspects of
    military history are always contentious; you can?t expect all historians to agree on who started a war, or who
    won it. But it turns out that even more basic facts-Who were the combatants? When did the fighting begin and
    end? How many died?-can be remarkably hard to pin down. Lots of wars merge and split, or have no clear
    beginning or end. As Richardson remarks, ?Thinginess fails.?

    In organizing his data, Richardson borrowed a crucial idea from astronomy: He classified wars and other
    quarrels according to their magnitude, the base-10 logarithm of the total number of deaths. Thus a terror
    campaign that kills 100 has a magnitude of 2, and a war with a million casualties is a magnitude-6 conflict. A
    murder with a single victim is magnitude 0 (since 100=1). The logarithmic scale was chosen in large part to
    cope with shortcomings of available data; although casualty totals are seldom known precisely, it is usually
    possible to estimate the logarithm within ±0.5. (A war of magnitude 6±0.5 could have anywhere from 316,228 to
    3,162,278 deaths.) But the use of logarithmic magnitudes has a psychological benefit as well: One can survey
    the entire spectrum of human violence on a single scale.

    Random Violence

    Richardson?s war list (as refined by Wilkinson) includes 315 conflicts of magnitude 2.5 or greater (or in other
    words with at least about 300 deaths). It?s no surprise that the two World Wars of the 20th century are at the
    top of this list; they are the only magnitude-7 conflicts in human history. What is surprising is the extent to which
    the World Wars dominate the overall death toll. Together they account for some 36 million deaths, which is
    about 60 percent of all the quarrel deaths in the 130-year period. The next largest category is at the other end of
    the spectrum: The magnitude-0 events (quarrels in which one to three people died) were responsible for 9.7
    million deaths. Thus the remainder of the 315 recorded wars, along with all the thousands of quarrels of
    intermediate size, produced less than a fourth of all the deaths.

    The list of magnitude-6 wars also yields surprises, although of a different kind. Richardson identified seven of
    these conflicts, the smallest causing half a million deaths and the largest about 2 million. Clearly these are major
    upheavals in world history; you might think that every educated person could name most of them. Try it before
    you read on. The seven megadeath conflicts listed by Richardson are, in chronological order, and using the
    names he adopted: the Taiping Rebellion (1851-1864), the North American Civil War (1861-1865), the Great
    War in La Plata (1865-1870), the sequel to the Bolshevik Revolution (1918-1920), the first Chinese-Communist
    War (1927-1936), the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939) and the communal riots in the Indian Peninsula
    (1946-1948).

    Looking at the list of 315 wars as a time series, Richardson asked what patterns or regularities could be
    discerned. Is war becoming more frequent, or less? Is the typical magnitude increasing? Are there any
    periodicities in the record, or other tendencies for the events to form clusters?

    A null hypothesis useful in addressing these questions suggests that wars are independent, random events, and
    on any given day there is always the same probability that war will break out. This hypothesis implies that the
    average number of new wars per year ought to obey a Poisson distribution, which describes how events tend to
    arrange themselves when each occurrence of an event is unlikely but there are many opportunities for an event
    to occur. The Poisson distribution is the law suitable for tabulating radioactive decays, cancer clusters, tornado
    touchdowns, Web-server hits and, in a famous early example, deaths of cavalrymen by horse kicks. As applied
    to the statistics of deadly quarrels, the Poisson law says that if p is the probability of a war starting in the course
    of a year, then the probability of seeing n wars begin in any one year is e-ppn/n!. Plugging some numbers into the
    formula shows that when p is small, years with no onsets of war are the most likely, followed by years in which
    a single war begins; as n grows, the likelihood of seeing a year with n wars declines steeply.

    Figure 3 compares the Poisson distribution with Richardson?s data for a group of magnitude- 4 wars. The match
    is very close. Richardson performed a similar analysis of the dates on which wars ended-the ?outbreaks of
    peace?-with the same result. He checked the wars on Quincy Wright?s list in the same way and again found
    good agreement. Thus the data offer no reason to believe that wars are anything other than randomly
    distributed accidents.

    Richardson also examined his data set for evidence of long-term trends in the incidence of war. Although
    certain patterns catch the eye when the data are plotted chronologically, Richardson concluded that the trends
    are not clear enough to rule out random fluctuations. ?The collection as a whole does not indicate any trend
    towards more, nor towards fewer, fatal quarrels.? He did find some slight hint of ?contagion?: The presence of
    an ongoing war may to some extent increase the probability of a new war starting.

    Love Thy Neighbor

    If the temporal dimension fails to explain much about war, what about spatial relations? Are neighboring
    countries less likely than average to wind up fighting one another, or more likely? Either hypothesis seems
    defensible. Close neighbors often have interests in common and so might be expected to become allies rather
    than enemies. On the other hand, neighbors could also be rivals contending for a share of the same resources-or
    maybe the people next door are just plain annoying. The existence of civil wars argues that living together is no
    guarantee of amity. (And at the low end of the magnitude scale, people often murder their own kin.)

    Richardson?s approach to these questions had a topological flavor. Instead of measuring the distance between
    countries, he merely asked whether or not they share a boundary. Then, in later studies, he refined this notion
    by trying to measure the length of the common boundary-which led to a fascinating digression. Working with
    maps at various scales, Richardson paced off the lengths of boundaries and coastlines with dividers, and
    realized that the result depends on the setting of the dividers, or in other words on the unit of measurement. A
    coastline that measures 100 steps of 10 millimeters each will not necessarily measure 1,000 steps of 1
    millimeter each; it is likely to be more, because the smaller units more closely follow the zigzag path of the
    coast. This result appeared in a somewhat out-of-the-way publication; when Benoit Mandelbrot came across it
    by chance, Richardson?s observation became one of the ideas that inspired Mandelbrot?s theory of fractals.

    During the period covered by Richardson?s study there were about 60 stable nations and empires (the empires
    being counted for this purpose as single entities). The mean number of neighbors for these states was about six
    (and Richardson offered an elegant geometric argument, based on Euler?s relation among the vertices, edges
    and faces of a polyhedron, that the number must be approximately six, for any plausible arrangement of
    nations). Hence if warring nations were to choose their foes entirely at random, there would be about a 10
    percent chance that any pair of belligerents would turn out to be neighbors. The actual proportion of warring
    neighbors is far higher. Of 94 international wars with just two participants, Richardson found only 12 cases in
    which the two combatants had no shared boundary, suggesting that war is mostly a neighborhood affair.

    But extending this conclusion to larger and wider wars proved difficult, mainly because the ?great powers? are
    effectively everyone?s neighbor. Richardson was best able to fit the data with a rather complex model assigning
    different probabilities to conflicts between two great powers, between a great power and a smaller state, and
    between two lesser nations. But rigging up a model with three parameters for such a small data set is not very
    satisfying. Furthermore, Richardson concluded that ?chaos? was still the predominant factor in explaining the
    world?s larger wars: The same element of randomness seen in the time-series analysis is at work here, though
    ?restricted by geography and modified by infectiousness.?

    What about other causative factors-social, economic, cultural? While compiling his war list, Richardson noted
    the various items that historians mentioned as possible irritants or pacifying influences, and then he looked for
    correlations between these factors and belligerence. The results were almost uniformly disappointing.
    Richardson?s own suppositions about the importance of arms races were not confirmed; he found evidence of a
    preparatory arms race in only 13 out of 315 cases. Richardson was also a proponent of Esperanto, but his hope
    that a common language would reduce the chance of conflict failed to find support in the data. Economic
    indicators were equally unhelpful: The statistics ratify neither the idea that war is mainly a struggle between the
    rich and the poor nor the view that commerce between nations creates bonds that prevent war.

    The one social factor that does have some detectable correlation with war is religion. In the Richardson data
    set, nations that differ in religion are more likely to fight than those that share the same religion. Moreover, some
    sects seem generally to be more bellicose (Christian nations participated in a disproportionate number of
    conflicts). But these effects are not large.

    Mere Anarchy Loosed upon the World

    The residuum of all these noncauses of war is mere randomness-the notion that warring nations bang against
    one another with no more plan or principle than molecules in an overheated gas. In this respect, Richardson?s
    data suggest that wars are like hurricanes or earthquakes: We can?t know in advance when or where a
    specific event will strike, but we do know how many to expect in the long run. We can compute the number of
    victims; we just can?t say who they?ll be.

    This view of wars as random catastrophes is not a comforting thought. It seems to leave us no control over our
    own destiny, nor any room for individual virtue or villainy. If wars just happen, who?s to blame? But this is a
    misreading of Richardson?s findings. Statistical ?laws? are not rules that govern the behavior either of nations or
    of individuals; they merely describe that behavior in the aggregate. A murderer might offer the defense that the
    crime rate is a known quantity, and so someone has to keep it up, but that plea is not likely to earn the sympathy
    of a jury. Conscience and personal responsibility are in no way diminished by taking a statistical view of war.

    What is depressing is that the data suggest no clear plan of action for those who want to reduce the prevalence
    of violence. Richardson himself was disappointed that his studies pointed to no obvious remedy. Perhaps he was
    expecting too much. A retired physicist reading the Encyclopaedia Britannica can do just so much toward
    securing world peace. But with larger and more detailed data sets, and more powerful statistical machinery,
    some useful lessons might emerge.

    There is now a whole community of people working to gather war data, many of whom trace their intellectual
    heritage back to Richardson and Quincy Wright. The largest such undertaking is the Correlates of War project,
    begun in the 1960s by J. David Singer of the University of Michigan. The COW catalogues, like Richardson?s,
    begin in the post-Napoleonic period, but they have been brought up close to the present day and now list
    thousands of militarized disputes. Offshoots and continuations of the project are being maintained by Russell J.
    Leng of Middlebury College and by Stuart A. Bremer of Pennsylvania State University.

    Peter Brecke of the Georgia Institute of Technology has begun another data collection. His catalogue extends
    down to magnitude 1.5 (about 30 deaths) and covers a much longer span of time, back as far as A.D. 1400. The
    catalogue is approaching completion for 5 of 12 global regions and includes more than 3,000 conflicts. The most
    intriguing finding so far is a dramatic, century-long lull in the 1700s.

    Even if Richardson?s limited data were all we had to go on, one clear policy imperative emerges: At all costs
    avoid the clash of the titans. However painful a series of brushfire wars may seem to the participants, it is the
    great global conflagrations that threaten us most. As noted above, the two magnitude-7 wars of the 20th
    century were responsible for three-fifths of all the deaths that Richardson recorded. We now have it in our
    power to have a magnitude-8 or -9 war. In the aftermath of such an event, no one would say that war is
    demographically irrelevant. After a war of magnitude 9.8, no one would say anything at all.

    Bibliography

    Ashford, Oliver M. 1985. Prophet-or Professor?: The Life and Work of Lewis Fry Richardson. Bristol, Boston:
    Adam Hilger.

    Brecke, Peter. 1999. Violent conflicts 1400 A.D. to
    the present in different regions of the world. http://www.inta.gatech.edu/peter/PSS99_paper.html

    Cioffi-Revilla, Claudio A. 1990. The Scientific Measurement of International Conflict: Handbook of Datasets
    on Crises and Wars 1945-1988. Boulder and London: Lynne Reinner Publishers.

    Richardson, Lewis F. 1960. Statistics of Deadly Quarrels. Edited by Quincy Wright and C. C. Lienau.
    Pittsburgh: Boxwood Press.

    Richardson, Lewis F. 1960. Arms and Insecurity: A Mathematical Study of the Causes and Origins of War.
    Edited by Nicolas Rashevsky and Ernesto Trucco. Pittsburgh: Boxwood Press.

    Richardson, Lewis F. 1961. The problem of contiguity: An appendix to Statistics of Deadly Quarrels. Yearbook
    of the Society for General Systems Research, Ann Arbor, Mich., Vol. VI, pp. 140-187.

    Richardson, Lewis Fry. 1993. Collected Papers of Lewis Fry Richardson. Edited by Oliver M. Ashford, et al.
    New York: Cambridge University Press.

    Richardson, Stephen A. 1957. Lewis Fry Richardson (1881-1953): A personal biography. Journal of Conflict
    Resolution 1:300-304.

    Singer, J. David, and Melvin Small. 1972. The Wages of War, 1816-1965: A Statistical Handbook. New York:
    John Wiley.

    Sorokin, Pitirim A. 1937. Social and Cultural Dynamics Vol. 3: Fluctuations of Social Relationships, War, and
    Revolution. New York: American Book Company.

    Wilkinson, David. 1980. Deadly Quarrels: Lewis F. Richardson and the Statistical Study of War. Berkeley:
    University of California Press.

    Wright, Quincy. 1965. A Study of War, with a Commentary on War Since 1942. Second edition. Chicago, Ill.:
    University of Chicago Press.

  39. Repost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Computing Science
    January-February, 2002

    Statistics of Deadly Quarrels

    Brian Hayes
    Note: This document is available in other formats.

    Look upon the phenomenon of war with dispassion and detachment, as if observing the follies of another species on a distant planet: From such an elevated view, war seems a puny enough pastime. Demographically, it hardly matters. War deaths amount to something like 1 percent of all deaths; in many places, more die by suicide, and still more in accidents. If saving human lives is the great desideratum, then there is more to be gained by prevention of drowning and auto wrecks than by the abolition of war.

    But no one on this planet sees war from such a height of austere equanimity. Even the gods on Olympus could not keep from meddling in earthly conflicts. Something about the clash of arms has a special power to rouse the stronger emotions--pity and love as well as fear and hatred--and so our response to battlefield killing and dying is out of all proportion to its rank in tables of vital statistics. When war comes, it muscles aside the calmer aspects of life; no one is unmoved. Most of us choose one side or the other, but even among those who merely want to stop the fighting, feelings run high. ("Antiwar militant" is no oxymoron.)

    The same inflamed passions that give war its urgent human interest also stand in the way of scholarly or scientific understanding. Reaching impartial judgment about rights and wrongs seems all but impossible. Stepping outside the bounds of one's own culture and ideology is also a challenge--not to mention the bounds of one's time and place. We tend to see all wars through the lens of the current conflict, and we mine history for lessons convenient to the present purpose.

    One defense against such distortions is the statistical method of gathering data about many wars from many sources, in the hope that at least some of the biases will balance out and true patterns will emerge. It's a dumb, brute-force approach and not foolproof, but nothing else looks more promising. A pioneer of this quantitative study of war was Lewis Fry Richardson, the British meteorologist whose ambitious but premature foray into numerical weather forecasting I described in this space a year ago. Now seems a good time to consider the other half of Richardson's lifework, on the mathematics of armed conflict.

    Wars and Peaces

    Richardson was born in 1881 to a prosperous Quaker family in the north of England. He studied physics with J. J. Thomson at Cambridge, where he developed expertise in the numerical solution of differential equations. Such approximate methods are a major mathematical industry today, but at that time they were not a popular subject or a shrewd career choice. After a series of short-term appointments--well off the tenure track--Richardson found a professional home in weather research, making notable contributions to the theory of atmospheric turbulence. Then, in 1916, he resigned his post to serve in France as a driver with the Friends' Ambulance Unit. Between tours of duty at the front, he did most of the calculations for his trial weather forecast. (The forecast was not a success, but the basic idea was sound, and all modern weather prediction relies on similar methods.)

    After the war, Richardson gradually shifted his attention from meteorology to questions of war and international relations. He found some of the same mathematical tools still useful. In particular, he modeled arms races with differential equations. The death spiral of escalation--where one country's arsenal provokes another to increase its own armament, whereupon the first nation responds by adding still more weapons--has a ready representation in a pair of linked differential equations. Richardson showed that an arms race can be stabilized only if the "fatigue and expense" of preparing for war are greater than the perceived threats from enemies. This result is hardly profound or surprising, and yet Richardson's analysis nonetheless attracted much comment (mainly skeptical), because the equations offered the prospect of a quantitative measure of war risks. If Richardson's equations could be trusted, then observers would merely need to track expenditures on armaments to produce a war forecast analogous to a weather forecast.

    Mathematical models of arms races have been further refined since Richardson's era, and they had a place in policy deliberations during the "mutually assured destruction" phase of the Cold War. But Richardson's own investigations turned in a somewhat different direction. A focus on armaments presupposes that the accumulation of weaponry is a major cause of war, or at least has a strong correlation with it. Other theories of the origin of war would emphasize different factors--the economic status of nations, say, or differences of culture and language, or the effectiveness of diplomacy and mediation. There is no shortage of such theories; the problem is choosing among them. Richardson argued that theories of war could and should be evaluated on a scientific basis, by testing them against data on actual wars. So he set out to collect such data.

    Richardson was not the first to follow this path. Several lists of wars were drawn up in the early years of the 20th century, and two more war catalogues were compiled in the 1930s and 40s by the Russian-born sociologist Pitirim A. Sorokin and by Quincy Wright of the University of Chicago. Richardson began his own collection in about 1940 and continued work on it until his death in 1953. His was not the largest data set, but it was the best suited to statistical analysis.

    Richardson published some of his writings on war in journal articles and pamphlets, but his ideas became widely known only after two posthumous volumes appeared in 1960. The work on arms races is collected in Arms and Insecurity; the statistical studies are in Statistics of Deadly Quarrels. In addition, a two-volume Collected Papers was published in 1993. Most of what follows in this article comes from Statistics of Deadly Quarrels. I have also leaned heavily on a 1980 study by David Wilkinson of the University of California, Los Angeles, which presents Richardson's data in a rationalized and more readable format.

    "Thinginess Fails"

    The catalogue of conflicts in Statistics of Deadly Quarrels covers the period from about 1820 until 1950. Richardson's aim was to count all deaths during this interval caused by a deliberate act of another person. Thus he includes individual murders and other lesser episodes of violence in addition to warfare, but he excludes accidents and negligence and natural disasters. He also decided not to count deaths from famine and disease associated with war, on the grounds that multiple causes are too hard to disentangle. (Did World War I "cause" the influenza epidemic of 1918-1919?)

    The decision to lump together murder and war was meant to be provocative. To those who hold that "murder is an abominable selfish crime, but war is a heroic and patriotic adventure," Richardson replies: "One can find cases of homicide which one large group of people condemned as murder, while another large group condoned or praised them as legitimate war. Such things went on in Ireland in 1921 and are going on now in Palestine." (It's depressing that his examples, 50 years later, remain so apt.) But if Richardson dismissed moral distinctions between various kinds of killing, he acknowledged methodological difficulties. Wars are the province of historians, whereas murders belong to criminologists; statistics from the two groups are hard to reconcile. And the range of deadly quarrels lying between murder and war is even more problematic. Riots, raids and insurrections have been too small and too frequent to attract the notice of historians, but they are too political for criminologists.

    For larger wars, Richardson compiled his list by reading histories, starting with the Encyclopaedia Britannica and going on to more diverse and specialized sources. Murder data came from national crime reports. To fill in the gap between wars and murders he tried interpolating and extrapolating and other means of estimating, but he acknowledged that his results in this area were weak and incomplete. He mixed together civil and international wars in a single list, arguing that the distinction is often unclear.

    An interesting lesson of Richardson's exercise is just how difficult it can be to extract consistent and reliable quantitative information from the historical record. It seems easier to count inaccessible galaxies or invisible neutrinos than to count wars that swept through whole nations just a century ago. Of course some aspects of military history are always contentious; you can't expect all historians to agree on who started a war, or who won it. But it turns out that even more basic facts--Who were the combatants? When did the fighting begin and end? How many died?--can be remarkably hard to pin down. Lots of wars merge and split, or have no clear beginning or end. As Richardson remarks, "Thinginess fails."

    In organizing his data, Richardson borrowed a crucial idea from astronomy: He classified wars and other quarrels according to their magnitude, the base-10 logarithm of the total number of deaths. Thus a terror campaign that kills 100 has a magnitude of 2, and a war with a million casualties is a magnitude-6 conflict. A murder with a single victim is magnitude 0 (since 100=1). The logarithmic scale was chosen in large part to cope with shortcomings of available data; although casualty totals are seldom known precisely, it is usually possible to estimate the logarithm within ±0.5. (A war of magnitude 6±0.5 could have anywhere from 316,228 to 3,162,278 deaths.) But the use of logarithmic magnitudes has a psychological benefit as well: One can survey the entire spectrum of human violence on a single scale.

    Random Violence

    Richardson's war list (as refined by Wilkinson) includes 315 conflicts of magnitude 2.5 or greater (or in other words with at least about 300 deaths). It's no surprise that the two World Wars of the 20th century are at the top of this list; they are the only magnitude-7 conflicts in human history. What is surprising is the extent to which the World Wars dominate the overall death toll. Together they account for some 36 million deaths, which is about 60 percent of all the quarrel deaths in the 130-year period. The next largest category is at the other end of the spectrum: The magnitude-0 events (quarrels in which one to three people died) were responsible for 9.7 million deaths. Thus the remainder of the 315 recorded wars, along with all the thousands of quarrels of intermediate size, produced less than a fourth of all the deaths.

    Love Thy Neighbor

    If the temporal dimension fails to explain much about war, what about spatial relations? Are neighboring countries less likely than average to wind up fighting one another, or more likely? Either hypothesis seems defensible. Close neighbors often have interests in common and so might be expected to become allies rather than enemies. On the other hand, neighbors could also be rivals contending for a share of the same resources--or maybe the people next door are just plain annoying. The existence of civil wars argues that living together is no guarantee of amity. (And at the low end of the magnitude scale, people often murder their own kin.)

    Richardson's approach to these questions had a topological flavor. Instead of measuring the distance between countries, he merely asked whether or not they share a boundary. Then, in later studies, he refined this notion by trying to measure the length of the common boundary--which led to a fascinating digression. Working with maps at various scales, Richardson paced off the lengths of boundaries and coastlines with dividers, and realized that the result depends on the setting of the dividers, or in other words on the unit of measurement. A coastline that measures 100 steps of 10 millimeters each will not necessarily measure 1,000 steps of 1 millimeter each; it is likely to be more, because the smaller units more closely follow the zigzag path of the coast. This result appeared in a somewhat out-of-the-way publication; when Benoit Mandelbrot came across it by chance, Richardson's observation became one of the ideas that inspired Mandelbrot's theory of fractals.

    During the period covered by Richardson's study there were about 60 stable nations and empires (the empires being counted for this purpose as single entities). The mean number of neighbors for these states was about six (and Richardson offered an elegant geometric argument, based on Euler's relation among the vertices, edges and faces of a polyhedron, that the number must be approximately six, for any plausible arrangement of nations). Hence if warring nations were to choose their foes entirely at random, there would be about a 10 percent chance that any pair of belligerents would turn out to be neighbors. The actual proportion of warring neighbors is far higher. Of 94 international wars with just two participants, Richardson found only 12 cases in which the two combatants had no shared boundary, suggesting that war is mostly a neighborhood affair.

    But extending this conclusion to larger and wider wars proved difficult, mainly because the "great powers" are effectively everyone's neighbor. Richardson was best able to fit the data with a rather complex model assigning different probabilities to conflicts between two great powers, between a great power and a smaller state, and between two lesser nations. But rigging up a model with three parameters for such a small data set is not very satisfying. Furthermore, Richardson concluded that "chaos" was still the predominant factor in explaining the world's larger wars: The same element of randomness seen in the time-series analysis is at work here, though "restricted by geography and modified by infectiousness."

    What about other causative factors--social, economic, cultural? While compiling his war list, Richardson noted the various items that historians mentioned as possible irritants or pacifying influences, and then he looked for correlations between these factors and belligerence. The results were almost uniformly disappointing. Richardson's own suppositions about the importance of arms races were not confirmed; he found evidence of a preparatory arms race in only 13 out of 315 cases. Richardson was also a proponent of Esperanto, but his hope that a common language would reduce the chance of conflict failed to find support in the data. Economic indicators were equally unhelpful: The statistics ratify neither the idea that war is mainly a struggle between the rich and the poor nor the view that commerce between nations creates bonds that prevent war.
    figure 5
    Figure 5

    The one social factor that does have some detectable correlation with war is religion. In the Richardson data set, nations that differ in religion are more likely to fight than those that share the same religion. Moreover, some sects seem generally to be more bellicose (Christian nations participated in a disproportionate number of conflicts). But these effects are not large.

    Mere Anarchy Loosed upon the World

    The residuum of all these noncauses of war is mere randomness--the notion that warring nations bang against one another with no more plan or principle than molecules in an overheated gas. In this respect, Richardson's data suggest that wars are like hurricanes or earthquakes: We can't know in advance when or where a specific event will strike, but we do know how many to expect in the long run. We can compute the number of victims; we just can't say who they'll be.

    This view of wars as random catastrophes is not a comforting thought. It seems to leave us no control over our own destiny, nor any room for individual virtue or villainy. If wars just happen, who's to blame? But this is a misreading of Richardson's findings. Statistical "laws" are not rules that govern the behavior either of nations or of individuals; they merely describe that behavior in the aggregate. A murderer might offer the defense that the crime rate is a known quantity, and so someone has to keep it up, but that plea is not likely to earn the sympathy of a jury. Conscience and personal responsibility are in no way diminished by taking a statistical view of war.

    What is depressing is that the data suggest no clear plan of action for those who want to reduce the prevalence of violence. Richardson himself was disappointed that his studies pointed to no obvious remedy. Perhaps he was expecting too much. A retired physicist reading the Encyclopaedia Britannica can do just so much toward securing world peace. But with larger and more detailed data sets, and more powerful statistical machinery, some useful lessons might emerge.

    There is now a whole community of people working to gather war data, many of whom trace their intellectual heritage back to Richardson and Quincy Wright. The largest such undertaking is the Correlates of War project, begun in the 1960s by J. David Singer of the University of Michigan. The COW catalogues, like Richardson's, begin in the post-Napoleonic period, but they have been brought up close to the present day and now list thousands of militarized disputes. Offshoots and continuations of the project are being maintained by Russell J. Leng of Middlebury College and by Stuart A. Bremer of Pennsylvania State University.

    Peter Brecke of the Georgia Institute of Technology has begun another data collection. His catalogue extends down to magnitude 1.5 (about 30 deaths) and covers a much longer span of time, back as far as A.D. 1400. The catalogue is approaching completion for 5 of 12 global regions and includes more than 3,000 conflicts. The most intriguing finding so far is a dramatic, century-long lull in the 1700s.
    figure 6
    Figure 6

    Even if Richardson's limited data were all we had to go on, one clear policy imperative emerges: At all costs avoid the clash of the titans. However painful a series of brushfire wars may seem to the participants, it is the great global conflagrations that threaten us most. As noted above, the two magnitude-7 wars of the 20th century were responsible for three-fifths of all the deaths that Richardson recorded. We now have it in our power to have a magnitude-8 or -9 war. In the aftermath of such an event, no one would say that war is demographically irrelevant. After a war of magnitude 9.8, no one would say anything at all.

    Bibliography

    Ashford, Oliver M. 1985. Prophet--or Professor?: The Life and Work of Lewis Fry Richardson. Bristol, Boston: Adam Hilger.

    Brecke, Peter. 1999. Violent conflicts 1400 A.D. to
    the present in different regions of the world. http://www.inta.gatech.edu/peter/PSS99_paper.html

    Cioffi-Revilla, Claudio A. 1990. The Scientific Measurement of International Conflict: Handbook of Datasets on Crises and Wars 1945-1988. Boulder and London: Lynne Reinner Publishers.

    Richardson, Lewis F. 1960. Statistics of Deadly Quarrels. Edited by Quincy Wright and C. C. Lienau. Pittsburgh: Boxwood Press.

    Richardson, Lewis F. 1960. Arms and Insecurity: A Mathematical Study of the Causes and Origins of War. Edited by Nicolas Rashevsky and Ernesto Trucco. Pittsburgh: Boxwood Press.

    Richardson, Lewis F. 1961. The problem of contiguity: An appendix to Statistics of Deadly Quarrels. Yearbook of the Society for General Systems Research, Ann Arbor, Mich., Vol. VI, pp. 140-187.

    Richardson, Lewis Fry. 1993. Collected Papers of Lewis Fry Richardson. Edited by Oliver M. Ashford, et al. New York: Cambridge University Press.

    Richardson, Stephen A. 1957. Lewis Fry Richardson (1881-1953): A personal biography. Journal of Conflict Resolution 1:300-304.

    Singer, J. David, and Melvin Small. 1972. The Wages of War, 1816-1965: A Statistical Handbook. New York: John Wiley.

    Sorokin, Pitirim A. 1937. Social and Cultural Dynamics Vol. 3: Fluctuations of Social Relationships, War, and Revolution. New York: American Book Company.

    Wilkinson, David. 1980. Deadly Quarrels: Lewis F. Richardson and the Statistical Study of War. Berkeley: University of California Press.

    Wright, Quincy. 1965. A Study of War, with a Commentary on War Since 1942. Second edition. Chicago, Ill.: University of Chicago Press.

    © 2001 Brian Hayes

  40. w00t by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could 5 people repost this post 5 times each so there will be 25 + 1 Copies of this post.
    Repeat so there is 625 + 25 + 1
    And keep repeating until slashdot has been DoSED

  41. We wont last for 50 more years by HanzoSan · · Score: 3, Insightful


    The amount of wars we have, and considering we are entering the nano age and still cant get along. Expect us to destroy ourselves for good in the next world war.

    --
    If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
    1. Re:We wont last for 50 more years by arbarbonif · · Score: 1

      I've long had the theory that there is a percentage of the human race that is capable, by ignorance or malice, of destroying the world. As technology advances the number of people required to destroy the world has dropped from about 50% of the population to a couple of hundred (I would estimate). We are doomed as soon as all the positions in the "destroy the world puzzle set" get filled with those capable of destroying the world.

      It's bound to happen eventually, especially as the number required to destroy the world keeps dropping.

      (I'm using "destroy the world" to mean "kill every human being on earth")

    2. Re:We wont last for 50 more years by HanzoSan · · Score: 2

      Not just that, the fact that it seems the majority of the people on earth want to destroy it, correct your math to assume that 70% of the world loves war and destruction.

      --
      If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
    3. Re:We wont last for 50 more years by Malcontent · · Score: 2

      We are predetors. Our natural instinct is to kill not only to eat but to gain prosition in the pack and to mate with the most females. I don't think we will even overcome our instincts.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

  42. The server is slashdotted! Mirror is HERE! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  43. w00t, revisited by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    heh heh heh heh Could 5 people repost this post 5 times each so there will be 25 + 1 Copies of this post.
    Repeat so there is 625 + 25 + 1
    And keep repeating until slashdot has been DoSED heh heh heh

  44. Not a g0at53 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could 5 people repost this post 5 times each so there will be 25 + 1 Copies of this post.
    Repeat so there is 625 + 25 + 1
    And keep repeating until slashdot has been DoSED

  45. +5 Insightful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Blame everything on America. It's the slashdot way.

    1. Re:+5 Insightful by soapvox · · Score: 1

      I am american and I believe a lot of Global conflicts are because we want to protect our money and money making interests around the world with out always getting our hands dirty. We need to learn to mind our own business and if a country wants to not be capitalist then let them not be. Thats why we have the UN if we'd just let them do thier job instead of trying to control them subversively.

  46. Article Text by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Computing Science
    January-February, 2002

    Statistics of Deadly Quarrels

    Brian Hayes

    Look upon the phenomenon of war with dispassion and detachment, as if observing the follies of another species on a distant planet: From such an elevated view, war seems a puny enough pastime. Demographically, it hardly matters. War deaths amount to something like 1 percent of all deaths; in many places, more die by suicide, and still more in accidents. If saving human lives is the great desideratum, then there is more to be gained by prevention of drowning and auto wrecks than by the abolition of war.

    But no one on this planet sees war from such a height of austere equanimity. Even the gods on Olympus could not keep from meddling in earthly conflicts. Something about the clash of arms has a special power to rouse the stronger emotions pity and love as well as fear and hatred and so our response to battlefield killing and dying is out of all proportion to its rank in tables of vital statistics. When war comes, it muscles aside the calmer aspects of life; no one is unmoved. Most of us choose one side or the other, but even among those who merely want to stop the fighting, feelings run high. (Antiwar militant is no oxymoron.)

    The same inflamed passions that give war its urgent human interest also stand in the way of scholarly or scientific understanding. Reaching impartial judgment about rights and wrongs seems all but impossible. Stepping outside the bounds of one's own culture and ideology is also a challenge not to mention the bounds of one's time and place. We tend to see all wars through the lens of the current conflict, and we mine history for lessons convenient to the present purpose.

    One defense against such distortions is the statistical method of gathering data about many wars from many sources, in the hope that at least some of the biases will balance out and true patterns will emerge. It's a dumb, brute-force approach and not foolproof, but nothing else looks more promising. A pioneer of this quantitative study of war was Lewis Fry Richardson, the British meteorologist whose ambitious but premature foray into numerical weather forecasting I described in this space a year ago. Now seems a good time to consider the other half of Richardson's lifework, on the mathematics of armed conflict.

    Wars and Peaces

    Richardson was born in 1881 to a prosperous Quaker family in the north of England. He studied physics with J. J. Thomson at Cambridge, where he developed expertise in the numerical solution of differential equations. Such approximate methods are a major mathematical industry today, but at that time they were not a popular subject or a shrewd career choice. After a series of short-term appointments well off the tenure track Richardson found a professional home in weather research, making notable contributions to the theory of atmospheric turbulence. Then, in 1916, he resigned his post to serve in France as a driver with the Friends' Ambulance Unit. Between tours of duty at the front, he did most of the calculations for his trial weather forecast. (The forecast was not a success, but the basic idea was sound, and all modern weather prediction relies on similar methods.)

    After the war, Richardson gradually shifted his attention from meteorology to questions of war and international relations. He found some of the same mathematical tools still useful. In particular, he modeled arms races with differential equations. The death spiral of escalation where one country's arsenal provokes another to increase its own armament, whereupon the first nation responds by adding still more weapons has a ready representation in a pair of linked differential equations. Richardson showed that an arms race can be stabilized only if the fatigue and expense of preparing for war are greater than the perceived threats from enemies. This result is hardly profound or surprising, and yet Richardson's analysis nonetheless attracted much comment (mainly skeptical), because the equations offered the prospect of a quantitative measure of war risks. If Richardson's equations could be trusted, then observers would merely need to track expenditures on armaments to produce a war forecast analogous to a weather forecast.

    Mathematical models of arms races have been further refined since Richardson's era, and they had a place in policy deliberations during the mutually assured destruction phase of the Cold War. But Richardson's own investigations turned in a somewhat different direction. A focus on armaments presupposes that the accumulation of weaponry is a major cause of war, or at least has a strong correlation with it. Other theories of the origin of war would emphasize different factors the economic status of nations, say, or differences of culture and language, or the effectiveness of diplomacy and mediation. There is no shortage of such theories; the problem is choosing among them. Richardson argued that theories of war could and should be evaluated on a scientific basis, by testing them against data on actual wars. So he set out to collect such data.

    Richardson was not the first to follow this path. Several lists of wars were drawn up in the early years of the 20th century, and two more war catalogues were compiled in the 1930s and 40s by the Russian-born sociologist Pitirim A. Sorokin and by Quincy Wright of the University of Chicago. Richardson began his own collection in about 1940 and continued work on it until his death in 1953. His was not the largest data set, but it was the best suited to statistical analysis.

    (Fig 1)

    Richardson published some of his writings on war in journal articles and pamphlets, but his ideas became widely known only after two posthumous volumes appeared in 1960. The work on arms races is collected in Arms and Insecurity; the statistical studies are in Statistics of Deadly Quarrels. In addition, a two-volume Collected Papers was published in 1993. Most of what follows in this article comes from Statistics of Deadly Quarrels. I have also leaned heavily on a 1980 study by David Wilkinson of the University of California, Los Angeles, which presents Richardson's data in a rationalized and more readable format.

    Thinginess Fails

    The catalogue of conflicts in Statistics of Deadly Quarrels covers the period from about 1820 until 1950. Richardson's aim was to count all deaths during this interval caused by a deliberate act of another person. Thus he includes individual murders and other lesser episodes of violence in addition to warfare, but he excludes accidents and negligence and natural disasters. He also decided not to count deaths from famine and disease associated with war, on the grounds that multiple causes are too hard to disentangle. (Did World War I cause the influenza epidemic of 1918 1919?)

    The decision to lump together murder and war was meant to be provocative. To those who hold that murder is an abominable selfish crime, but war is a heroic and patriotic adventure, Richardson replies: One can find cases of homicide which one large group of people condemned as murder, while another large group condoned or praised them as legitimate war. Such things went on in Ireland in 1921 and are going on now in Palestine. (It's depressing that his examples, 50 years later, remain so apt.) But if Richardson dismissed moral distinctions between various kinds of killing, he acknowledged methodological difficulties. Wars are the province of historians, whereas murders belong to criminologists; statistics from the two groups are hard to reconcile. And the range of deadly quarrels lying between murder and war is even more problematic. Riots, raids and insurrections have been too small and too frequent to attract the notice of historians, but they are too political for criminologists.

    For larger wars, Richardson compiled his list by reading histories, starting with the Encyclopaedia Britannica and going on to more diverse and specialized sources. Murder data came from national crime reports. To fill in the gap between wars and murders he tried interpolating and extrapolating and other means of estimating, but he acknowledged that his results in this area were weak and incomplete. He mixed together civil and international wars in a single list, arguing that the distinction is often unclear.

    An interesting lesson of Richardson's exercise is just how difficult it can be to extract consistent and reliable quantitative information from the historical record. It seems easier to count inaccessible galaxies or invisible neutrinos than to count wars that swept through whole nations just a century ago. Of course some aspects of military history are always contentious; you can't expect all historians to agree on who started a war, or who won it. But it turns out that even more basic facts Who were the combatants? When did the fighting begin and end? How many died? can be remarkably hard to pin down. Lots of wars merge and split, or have no clear beginning or end. As Richardson remarks, Thinginess fails.

    In organizing his data, Richardson borrowed a crucial idea from astronomy: He classified wars and other quarrels according to their magnitude, the base-10 logarithm of the total number of deaths. Thus a terror campaign that kills 100 has a magnitude of 2, and a war with a million casualties is a magnitude-6 conflict. A murder with a single victim is magnitude 0 (since 100=1). The logarithmic scale was chosen in large part to cope with shortcomings of available data; although casualty totals are seldom known precisely, it is usually possible to estimate the logarithm within +/-0.5. (A war of magnitude 6+/-0.5 could have anywhere from 316,228 to 3,162,278 deaths.) But the use of logarithmic magnitudes has a psychological benefit as well: One can survey the entire spectrum of human violence on a single scale.

    Random Violence

    Richardson's war list (as refined by Wilkinson) includes 315 conflicts of magnitude 2.5 or greater (or in other words with at least about 300 deaths). It's no surprise that the two World Wars of the 20th century are at the top of this list; they are the only magnitude-7 conflicts in human history. What is surprising is the extent to which the World Wars dominate the overall death toll. Together they account for some 36 million deaths, which is about 60 percent of all the quarrel deaths in the 130-year period. The next largest category is at the other end of the spectrum: The magnitude-0 events (quarrels in which one to three people died) were responsible for 9.7 million deaths. Thus the remainder of the 315 recorded wars, along with all the thousands of quarrels of intermediate size, produced less than a fourth of all the deaths.

    (Fig 2) (Fig 3)

    The list of magnitude-6 wars also yields surprises, although of a different kind. Richardson identified seven of these conflicts, the smallest causing half a million deaths and the largest about 2 million. Clearly these are major upheavals in world history; you might think that every educated person could name most of them. Try it before you read on. The seven megadeath conflicts listed by Richardson are, in chronological order, and using the names he adopted: the Taiping Rebellion (1851-1864), the North American Civil War (1861-1865), the Great War in La Plata (1865-1870), the sequel to the Bolshevik Revolution (1918-1920), the first Chinese-Communist War (1927-1936), the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939) and the communal riots in the Indian Peninsula (1946-1948).

    Looking at the list of 315 wars as a time series, Richardson asked what patterns or regularities could be discerned. Is war becoming more frequent, or less? Is the typical magnitude increasing? Are there any periodicities in the record, or other tendencies for the events to form clusters?

    A null hypothesis useful in addressing these questions suggests that wars are independent, random events, and on any given day there is always the same probability that war will break out. This hypothesis implies that the average number of new wars per year ought to obey a Poisson distribution, which describes how events tend to arrange themselves when each occurrence of an event is unlikely but there are many opportunities for an event to occur. The Poisson distribution is the law suitable for tabulating radioactive decays, cancer clusters, tornado touchdowns, Web-server hits and, in a famous early example, deaths of cavalrymen by horse kicks. As applied to the statistics of deadly quarrels, the Poisson law says that if p is the probability of a war starting in the course of a year, then the probability of seeing n wars begin in any one year is e^ppn/n!. Plugging some numbers into the formula shows that when p is small, years with no onsets of war are the most likely, followed by years in which a single war begins; as n grows, the likelihood of seeing a year with n wars declines steeply.

    Figure 3 compares the Poisson distribution with Richardson's data for a group of magnitude- 4 wars. The match is very close. Richardson performed a similar analysis of the dates on which wars ended the outbreaks of peace with the same result. He checked the wars on Quincy Wright's list in the same way and again found good agreement. Thus the data offer no reason to believe that wars are anything other than randomly distributed accidents.

    Richardson also examined his data set for evidence of long-term trends in the incidence of war. Although certain patterns catch the eye when the data are plotted chronologically, Richardson concluded that the trends are not clear enough to rule out random fluctuations. The collection as a whole does not indicate any trend towards more, nor towards fewer, fatal quarrels. He did find some slight hint of contagion: The presence of an ongoing war may to some extent increase the probability of a new war starting.

    (Fig 4)

    Love Thy Neighbor

    If the temporal dimension fails to explain much about war, what about spatial relations? Are neighboring countries less likely than average to wind up fighting one another, or more likely? Either hypothesis seems defensible. Close neighbors often have interests in common and so might be expected to become allies rather than enemies. On the other hand, neighbors could also be rivals contending for a share of the same resources or maybe the people next door are just plain annoying. The existence of civil wars argues that living together is no guarantee of amity. (And at the low end of the magnitude scale, people often murder their own kin.)

    Richardson's approach to these questions had a topological flavor. Instead of measuring the distance between countries, he merely asked whether or not they share a boundary. Then, in later studies, he refined this notion by trying to measure the length of the common boundary which led to a fascinating digression. Working with maps at various scales, Richardson paced off the lengths of boundaries and coastlines with dividers, and realized that the result depends on the setting of the dividers, or in other words on the unit of measurement. A coastline that measures 100 steps of 10 millimeters each will not necessarily measure 1,000 steps of 1 millimeter each; it is likely to be more, because the smaller units more closely follow the zigzag path of the coast. This result appeared in a somewhat out-of-the-way publication; when Benoit Mandelbrot came across it by chance, Richardson's observation became one of the ideas that inspired Mandelbrot's theory of fractals.

    During the period covered by Richardson's study there were about 60 stable nations and empires (the empires being counted for this purpose as single entities). The mean number of neighbors for these states was about six (and Richardson offered an elegant geometric argument, based on Euler's relation among the vertices, edges and faces of a polyhedron, that the number must be approximately six, for any plausible arrangement of nations). Hence if warring nations were to choose their foes entirely at random, there would be about a 10 percent chance that any pair of belligerents would turn out to be neighbors. The actual proportion of warring neighbors is far higher. Of 94 international wars with just two participants, Richardson found only 12 cases in which the two combatants had no shared boundary, suggesting that war is mostly a neighborhood affair.

    But extending this conclusion to larger and wider wars proved difficult, mainly because the great powers are effectively everyone's neighbor. Richardson was best able to fit the data with a rather complex model assigning different probabilities to conflicts between two great powers, between a great power and a smaller state, and between two lesser nations. But rigging up a model with three parameters for such a small data set is not very satisfying. Furthermore, Richardson concluded that chaos was still the predominant factor in explaining the world's larger wars: The same element of randomness seen in the time-series analysis is at work here, though restricted by geography and modified by infectiousness.

    What about other causative factors social, economic, cultural? While compiling his war list, Richardson noted the various items that historians mentioned as possible irritants or pacifying influences, and then he looked for correlations between these factors and belligerence. The results were almost uniformly disappointing. Richardson's own suppositions about the importance of arms races were not confirmed; he found evidence of a preparatory arms race in only 13 out of 315 cases. Richardson was also a proponent of Esperanto, but his hope that a common language would reduce the chance of conflict failed to find support in the data. Economic indicators were equally unhelpful: The statistics ratify neither the idea that war is mainly a struggle between the rich and the poor nor the view that commerce between nations creates bonds that prevent war.

    (Fig 5)

    The one social factor that does have some detectable correlation with war is religion. In the Richardson data set, nations that differ in religion are more likely to fight than those that share the same religion. Moreover, some sects seem generally to be more bellicose (Christian nations participated in a disproportionate number of conflicts). But these effects are not large.

    Mere Anarchy Loosed upon the World

    The residuum of all these noncauses of war is mere randomness the notion that warring nations bang against one another with no more plan or principle than molecules in an overheated gas. In this respect, Richardson's data suggest that wars are like hurricanes or earthquakes: We can't know in advance when or where a specific event will strike, but we do know how many to expect in the long run. We can compute the number of victims; we just can't say who they'll be.

    This view of wars as random catastrophes is not a comforting thought. It seems to leave us no control over our own destiny, nor any room for individual virtue or villainy. If wars just happen, who's to blame? But this is a misreading of Richardson's findings. Statistical laws are not rules that govern the behavior either of nations or of individuals; they merely describe that behavior in the aggregate. A murderer might offer the defense that the crime rate is a known quantity, and so someone has to keep it up, but that plea is not likely to earn the sympathy of a jury. Conscience and personal responsibility are in no way diminished by taking a statistical view of war.

    What is depressing is that the data suggest no clear plan of action for those who want to reduce the prevalence of violence. Richardson himself was disappointed that his studies pointed to no obvious remedy. Perhaps he was expecting too much. A retired physicist reading the Encyclopaedia Britannica can do just so much toward securing world peace. But with larger and more detailed data sets, and more powerful statistical machinery, some useful lessons might emerge.

    There is now a whole community of people working to gather war data, many of whom trace their intellectual heritage back to Richardson and Quincy Wright. The largest such undertaking is the Correlates of War project, begun in the 1960s by J. David Singer of the University of Michigan. The COW catalogues, like Richardson's, begin in the post-Napoleonic period, but they have been brought up close to the present day and now list thousands of militarized disputes. Offshoots and continuations of the project are being maintained by Russell J. Leng of Middlebury College and by Stuart A. Bremer of Pennsylvania State University.

    Peter Brecke of the Georgia Institute of Technology has begun another data collection. His catalogue extends down to magnitude 1.5 (about 30 deaths) and covers a much longer span of time, back as far as A.D. 1400. The catalogue is approaching completion for 5 of 12 global regions and includes more than 3,000 conflicts. The most intriguing finding so far is a dramatic, century-long lull in the 1700s.

    (Fig 6)

    Even if Richardson's limited data were all we had to go on, one clear policy imperative emerges: At all costs avoid the clash of the titans. However painful a series of brushfire wars may seem to the participants, it is the great global conflagrations that threaten us most. As noted above, the two magnitude-7 wars of the 20th century were responsible for three-fifths of all the deaths that Richardson recorded. We now have it in our power to have a magnitude-8 or -9 war. In the aftermath of such an event, no one would say that war is demographically irrelevant. After a war of magnitude 9.8, no one would say anything at all.

    Bibliography

    Ashford, Oliver M. 1985. Prophet or Professor?: The Life and Work of Lewis Fry Richardson. Bristol, Boston: Adam Hilger.

    Brecke, Peter. 1999. Violent conflicts 1400 A.D. to
    the present in different regions of the world. http://www.inta.gatech.edu/peter/PSS99_paper.html

    Cioffi-Revilla, Claudio A. 1990. The Scientific Measurement of International Conflict: Handbook of Datasets on Crises and Wars 1945-1988. Boulder and London: Lynne Reinner Publishers.

    Richardson, Lewis F. 1960. Statistics of Deadly Quarrels. Edited by Quincy Wright and C. C. Lienau. Pittsburgh: Boxwood Press.

    Richardson, Lewis F. 1960. Arms and Insecurity: A Mathematical Study of the Causes and Origins of War. Edited by Nicolas Rashevsky and Ernesto Trucco. Pittsburgh: Boxwood Press.

    Richardson, Lewis F. 1961. The problem of contiguity: An appendix to Statistics of Deadly Quarrels. Yearbook of the Society for General Systems Research, Ann Arbor, Mich., Vol. VI, pp. 140-187.

    Richardson, Lewis Fry. 1993. Collected Papers of Lewis Fry Richardson. Edited by Oliver M. Ashford, et al. New York: Cambridge University Press.

    Richardson, Stephen A. 1957. Lewis Fry Richardson (1881-1953): A personal biography. Journal of Conflict Resolution 1:300-304.

    Singer, J. David, and Melvin Small. 1972. The Wages of War, 1816-1965: A Statistical Handbook. New York: John Wiley.

    Sorokin, Pitirim A. 1937. Social and Cultural Dynamics Vol. 3: Fluctuations of Social Relationships, War, and Revolution. New York: American Book Company.

    Wilkinson, David. 1980. Deadly Quarrels: Lewis F. Richardson and the Statistical Study of War. Berkeley: University of California Press.

    Wright, Quincy. 1965. A Study of War, with a Commentary on War Since 1942. Second edition. Chicago, Ill.: University of Chicago Press.

    (c) 2001 Brian Hayes

  47. Humanity is suicidal. by HanzoSan · · Score: 1, Troll


    Thats right, its a goal of many people to kill themselves, they dont know they are doing this, they think they are killing the enemy.

    What humans just cant figure out is, we are all one, instead of us acting as a team we fight ourselves. This is why I dont think we will last for 50 more years, because the next big war wont involve nukes, its going to be a nano war, mixed with bio terrorism, a war you cant stop no matter what technology you have, and a war where both sides will die.

    So whats the choice? The choice is to end all war, and all causes of war, such as hate, find ways to handle political disputes or just form a one world government for all I care, but war is something that should cease to exsist in the next 10-20 years, because if it still exsists at this time, it wont just be nuking one country, it will be spores spreading all over the world killing billions, or nano viruses killing the whole planet.

    Technology is at the point now where war is just no longer practical. When will we evolve socially to the level we are at with technology? If theres no balance, we wont properly use our new technology and will destroy ourselves.

    The End.

    --
    If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
    1. Re:Humanity is suicidal. by kin_korn_karn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      when humanity outgrows religion is when war will end. Political issues can be reasoned through, but religion can't be.

    2. Re:Humanity is suicidal. by Mittermeyer · · Score: 1

      It's not that simple. Hitler absolutely foreswore deployment of chemical or biological weapons, yet he seemed to do alright in the killing department, and might even have 'won' if he stopped short of attacking Russia.

      Truman, the man who dropped the bomb, did not drop them on Korea or China when we had near absolute superiority.

      I agree, bioweapons and nanowars are a whole level of extermination above nukes, but just because this terrible technology exists doesn't mean it will be used. Humanity has proven to be more intelligent then that so far (or lucky).

      However, just because the terrible stuff is not used does not mean warfare is over, just that it gets ritualized at a realpolitik level.

      --
      ________________________________________ History Must Not Fall Into The Wrong Hands ___________________________________
    3. Re:Humanity is suicidal. by HanzoSan · · Score: 1, Insightful


      Religion is not the cause of war. The problem is people dont follow religions which are anti war, and if they do, they ignore the "do not kill" sign on the front of their bibles and qurans.

      Its not religion, its people. People want to destroy themselves. Some people their only purpose in life, are to destroy other people, Hitler is a good example.

      Theres lots of other people like hitler, all of his Nazi followers, the KKK, Al Qaeda, these people live only to kill other people, they are like rogue cancer cells of society.

      Yes I'm calling these people a cancer, because its going to be one of these groups of people, who will take a nano virus and lets say the KKK and Nazis get together, make a nano virus which kills all minorities.

      You'll wake up one morning and every non white aryan person will be dead.

      The technology is at the point where if we dont evolve, we wont survive another terrorist attack, theres terrorists INSIDE the USA, the KKK and Nazis are INSIDE the USA!!

      I'm betting it was one of these groups who sent Antrax, let them get ahold of nano technology!

      --
      If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
    4. Re:Humanity is suicidal. by Stonehand · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Too a limited degree, I'd agree -- religious fanaticism is not something that lends itself to negotiation and compromise. As such, theocracies, including de facto theocracies where everything is culturally seen through the eyes of religion, are a fair bit dangerous...

      But it's not just religion. Fanaticism comes in various forms, like the few remaining diehard Marxist and Maoist rebel movements scattered around the globe, or the militant wings of racial separatist movements.

      --
      Only the dead have seen the end of war.
    5. Re:Humanity is suicidal. by HanzoSan · · Score: 2

      Every single terrible technology that has exsisted h as been used at least once.

      Its time we evolve to the next level, the level above war. Imagine us going into space having space wars.

      Do you know why aliens will never make contact with us? Who would make contact with a species thats so unstable and suicidal that its busy killing itself, hell if aliens want to enslave of they can just incite a war.

      IF we dare go into space with this destructive war like nature, (if we make it into space before killing ourselves) expect planets to be blown up, and expect all hell to break loose.

      --
      If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
    6. Re:Humanity is suicidal. by Odinson · · Score: 2
      I am glad you want to talk about this.

      I think bio-terrorism style nano attacks will come right at the beginning of nanotech. We are only going to be 2-10 years into use of nanotech when people start exploding inside and dropping dead. Unless Moore's law breaks that's 8-13 years from now.

      Circulatory nanite attacks will come first because medical use of nanites will come second only to small scale microprocessors. Exclusive patented copyright software rights to cures for cancer, AIDS and all blood borne disease will drive companies to stop at no financial end to adapt dry vacuum based molecular machines and circuitry to the circulatory system. They will succeed in a few years time.

      When the first person implodes, we have one maybe two years to build really strong nanite based immune systems and distribute it to everybody we care about before humanity begins to die by the billions. But I'll bet you any amount of money the companies will stall the release of their intellectual property long enough to eliminate all of humanity.

      If our government must step in immediately after the first nanite terrorist attack, and suspend all IP penalties for inventors. If not, this will come to bloodshed, and one side will be fighting the IP police not for TV sitcoms but for their lives.

      The geeks will survive regardless, ignoring IP law and working together in an underground fashion to build such a supplemental immune system.

      People adept at sharing IP and information underground may be the only to survive. We need to limit the scope of patents and the duration of copyright. Most of all we need our government to acknowledge in law that there are circumstances when taking owned IP and releasing it to the public domain for the public good is acceptable. We won't have time to argue about precident later.

      Of course if we survive that we will need to re-adapt to a life of sword play. What? You think bullets will slow someone with 150 times the oxegen content of a normal human?

    7. Re:Humanity is suicidal. by WotanKhan · · Score: 1

      "People want to destroy themselves" No, they want to eliminate competing genotypes.

    8. Re:Humanity is suicidal. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is Hitler looked at as pure evil? His sole purpose in life wasn't to kill, when he was younger he was an artist but did not get accepted into a german art university. Maybe if he did there would have never been a holocaust. People are a result of their environment, people aren't born evil.

    9. Re:Humanity is suicidal. by tenchiken · · Score: 4, Informative


      That statement is not verified by the facts. As the paper points out, the two large wars in the last century were WWI and WWII. These wars were massive on a scale not seen since the Napolionic Wars (in particular, the war of 1812), and the American revolutionary war (which where the real first two world wars).

      WWI was primarily fought over past humiliations, and the breakdown of the Bismarkian system. WWI was completly pointless, the ideology between France/UK/Germany was extremly similar (the Russians were somewhat behind). That cost of the war became so great so fast that the pure pain of what they had already gone thru and promise for future battle prevented a resonable peace.

      WWII was a battle of Ideology pure and simple. The only religon that really played any part was the cults that tended to surround Hitler. Either a remaking of Christianity replacing Jesus with Hitler (German Christian) or The Wagnerian view of the German "Volk". From the oral testimony, as well as the general overview I have had in the Japanese front, they were faced with the simple fact. If they did not attack america, their war against China would die, leaving them vunderable against Russia and China.

      The last "religous wars" that occured in the western world were during the reformation. Islamic fundamentalists now seem determined to return us to the era of religous wars.

      Thoose were much more about the desire of the German princes to establish soverignty over their land, and to be independant of the foreign powers that had run amuck with them.

      The Crusades were a "clash of civilizations" Christiandom vs a revivified east. Contrary to popular opinion, they didn't occur because the pope or the celiph decided that the other was wrong.

      I hope this argument serves to rebut your troll. I will watch this thread in hope you decide to turn your troll into a argument, and thus a debate.

    10. Re:Humanity is suicidal. by Mittermeyer · · Score: 2

      Hitler is pure evil not for what his hardships led him to, but for his deeds. Launching a war with at least 60 million plus deaths counts as evil to me.

      --
      ________________________________________ History Must Not Fall Into The Wrong Hands ___________________________________
    11. Re: Humanity is suicidal. by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2


      > But it's not just religion. Fanaticism comes in various forms, like the few remaining diehard Marxist and Maoist rebel movements scattered around the globe, or the militant wings of racial separatist movements.

      And your basic nationalism, which has been the planet's bane for c. 2 centuries now.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    12. Re:Humanity is suicidal. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is Hitler looked at as pure evil? His sole purpose in life wasn't to kill, when he was younger he was an artist but did not get accepted into a german art university. Maybe if he did there would have never been a holocaust.

      It's not about how we react to the good things in life. How we react to the worst hardships we encounter is what defines us as a person.

    13. Re:Humanity is suicidal. by subtillus · · Score: 1

      I agree completely. However, If you look at ideas as if they were sort of like genes, or 'memes' as they have been called. You'll realize that no matter how far some of us go, or how much religion as an idea might be selected against, you'll never, ever EVER get them all.

    14. Re:Humanity is suicidal. by subtillus · · Score: 1

      bull shit.
      times 3!!!
      1) It's our high technology that protects us holding everyone in a stalemate. I know, now it only takes one but to kill us all but I think we're a lot safer this way.
      2)"anti-war religions" who the f@ck are you kidding? some holy men tell you that if you're a good little muslim and kill X number of jews you'll go to heaven. It's a survival of ideas game, the peoples who are willing to kill to survive will survive. What you're really missing is just how draconian your people are. Assuming you're an american...
      who is Bin Ladin and who trained him, who made him?
      Is it really fair to destroy an entire country and it's government because of a terrorist action, are you sure the government knew anything?
      Is it fair to chastize Israel for doing the samething?

    15. Re:Humanity is suicidal. by HanzoSan · · Score: 2

      write the script and call it a movie. Then send it to george lucus

      --
      If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
    16. Re:Humanity is suicidal. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Humanity is suicidal. I am a human. Therefore I am suicidal?

    17. Re:Humanity is suicidal. by a_n_d_e_r_s · · Score: 1

      Actually WW2 was in some ways a continuation of WW1. Which in turn was a continueation of the Bismark wars.

      The terms after WW1 opposed upon Germany made the
      situation in Germany hard and thus they needed to get a strong leader to get the unreasonable terms reversed - which made the way for the nazis and the WW2.

      The borderlands between France and Germany has shifted ovwnership several times. WW2 was partly just to take back whe territory Germany lost in WW1.

      --
      Just saying it like it are.
  48. BOGUS LINK!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    fuck you...

    bye now!

  49. Keep on going! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could 5 people repost this post 5 times each so there will be 25 + 1 Copies of this post.
    Repeat so there is 625 + 25 + 1
    And keep repeating until slashdot has been DoSED

    434

  50. Percentage of adolescent males? by cnoocy · · Score: 1

    What happened to the folks a number of years ago who had found a definite correlation betweent the percentage of adolescent males in a society and its likelyhood to go to war? Did that research pan out?

    --
    This sig is not the Zahir. Lucky for you.
    1. Re:Percentage of adolescent males? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was being conducted in Afganistan and Pakistan; it's currently on hold.

    2. Re:Percentage of adolescent males? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "Clash of Civilizations" book (a somewhat recent best seller) uses that theory to present some interesting predictions of the near future.
      Apparently, the Islamic world has had just such
      a high percentage of adolescents for the last decade or so. With current birth/death rates there, they will continue to have high percentages for the next 20 years or so. The WORLD is in for a ROUGH time!!!

  51. We arent evolving by HanzoSan · · Score: 0, Troll



    The reason we arent evolving, the anti war people are ignored and are considered stupid college kids, or hippies.

    Look, while some of us MAY be evolved above the rest of the haters and war lovers, it doesnt change they fact that they decide the fate of humanity not us.

    If they want to destroy us in wars, they can, if they want to pollute the air and enviornment they can.

    You cant even get in their position in government because its like a fucking monarchy, the green party has been trying for years to get in and arent getting anywhere.

    --
    If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
    1. Re:We arent evolving by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because the green party in has no practical implementations for the idealized world they invision. The ideas are fine, but with the unrealistic approaches espoused to solve them, they're useless.

    2. Re:We arent evolving by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason the green party can't get in is because the last thing we need is a bunch of hippies running the government

    3. Re:We arent evolving by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason we arent evolving, the anti war people are ignored and are considered stupid college kids, or hippies.

      No, that's the reason that we are evolving. It's also the reason that the situation isn't improving.

      HanzoSan, you seem to have this weird attitude that evolution is a desirable thing. Probably saw too much Star Trek when you were a kid.

      Evolution is about being the becoming the best exploiter of all. If you don't like it (and I don't blame you) then quit advocating evolution, because you're just going to make things worse.

  52. Use the Google cache by fred911 · · Score: 1

    http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:VltxrZa1rHMC: www.sigmaxi.org/amsci/Issues/Comsci02/Compsci2002- 01.html+Compsci2002-01.html&hl=en

    --
    09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
  53. According to the web of wars... by richone · · Score: 1

    on should stay the hellp out of Denmark...

    --
    Play Well
    1. Re:According to the web of wars... by Dr.+Cody · · Score: 1

      Denmark über alles?

  54. Who'd 'a' thunk it? by Megahurts · · Score: 1

    looking at that diagram, I said to myself, "wow, self. Denmark sure has been a violent country."

    I guess it's that Viking influence.

    1. Re:Who'd 'a' thunk it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ummmm....... I hate to burst your bubble, but de is germany. or Deutschland to the natives.

    2. Re:Who'd 'a' thunk it? by Megahurts · · Score: 1

      heh... Oh yeah, that's right. I knew that. Really. (same thing happened to me on a physics test last night. I just kinda blanked and got about a fourth of the exam wrong. Maybe I have a tumor or something)

  55. RE:Where will I go when I die? by isotope23 · · Score: 1

    "Where will I go when I die? I dunno, but I sure hope it isn't hell. I've been living in it all my life. "

    Guess what? It's called internship so get used to it! Your "on the job training" will
    be up soon....

    --
    Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
  56. Cowboy Neal said it best by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could 5 people repost this post 5 times each so there will be 25 + 1 Copies of this post.
    Repeat so there is 625 + 25 + 1
    And keep repeating until slashdot has been DoSED

    Why does New Jersey have more toxic waste dumps and California have more lawyers? New Jersey had first choice.

  57. Everyone who claims human nature doesnt consider by HanzoSan · · Score: 3, Insightful


    Evolution. Human Nature was meant to EVOLVE.

    I'm sick of every cave man, murderer, theif, and other bad person getting the term "Oh its just human nature"

    No, its caveman nature. This is 2002, Humans should evolve to my level, or else why should I consider them human? I can consider them animals.

    --
    If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
  58. Slashdot is dying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could 5 people repost this post 5 times each so there will be 25 + 1 Copies of this post. Repeat so there is 625 + 25 + 1 And keep repeating until slashdot has been DoSED

  59. Re:Blame everything on America. It's the slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You poor americans! I can hear crying from all around the world for you.

  60. Napoleon's march into Russia by jcsehak · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There's a cool map of Nappy's march into Russia, which shows, visually, the losses suffered by the thickness of the line, among other things. Really beautifully rendered. Edward Tutfe (master of information design) is a big fan of it, understandably so.

    --

    c-hack.com |
    1. Re:Napoleon's march into Russia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but, can YOU imagine a beowulf cluster of "Could 5 people repost this post 5 times each so there will be 25 + 1 Copies of this post. Repeat so there is 625 + 25 + 1 And keep repeating until slashdot has been DoSED"??

      heh heh heh w00t. bye now!

      DHCP rules! nice try, /. bot! gots me a new IP...

    2. Re: Napoleon's march into Russia by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2


      > There's a cool map [edwardtufte.com] of Nappy's march into Russia, which shows, visually, the losses suffered by the thickness of the line, among other things.

      Wish I had computer for every time I've seen that in a magazine ad. (I'd build an awesome beowulf cluster.)

      It is interesting, though. For instance, you always hear about how horrible the march back west was, but if you look at the chart you can see that the army was already reduced to about 1/4 its original size by the time it reached Moscow. I looks like the march east was thrice as bad as the part you always hear horror stories about.

      Such is the value of good data presentation, I suppose.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    3. Re: Napoleon's march into Russia by glwtta · · Score: 2

      During the march east the numbers were mostly reduced by battles (if I recall correctly), whilst during the march back west, it was the actual "march" doing people in. I think that would explain the bias in the descriptions.

      --
      sic transit gloria mundi
  61. Well, look at that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From the diagram alone, it appears that, since they do not appear at all on the page, .com .net and .edu are some of the safest places to live.

  62. Ignominious Death by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    can YOU imagine a beowulf cluster of "Could 5 people repost this post 5 times each so there will be 25 + 1 Copies of this post. Repeat so there is 625 + 25 + 1 And keep repeating until slashdot has been DoSED"??

  63. The Beowulf cluster of reposts!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could 5 people repost this post 5 times each so there will be 25 + 1 Copies of this post.
    Repeat so there is 625 + 25 + 1
    And keep repeating until slashdot has been DoSED

    Lameness filter breaking code : 43403322

    1. Re:The Beowulf cluster of reposts!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but, can YOU imagine a beowulf cluster of "Could 5 people repost this post 5 times each so there will be 25 + 1 Copies of this post. Repeat so there is 625 + 25 + 1 And keep repeating until slashdot has been DoSED"??

      keep on posting! heh heh heh w00t. bye now!

  64. How to stop war? by ckd · · Score: 1, Redundant

    Too bad we can't just slashdot the combatants into immobility the way we just affected this guy's web server....

  65. Hope? No Evolution. by HanzoSan · · Score: 2

    I dont want War, I'm not greedy, I dont have any of those problems, I dont steal, I dont exploit people, I dont murder, From what I know, based on the definition of Human Nature, I'm not human?

    Uh no, I think its the other way around, Human Nature was meant to evolve, some Humans have the nature of CaveMen, other humans have a more evolved Human Nature.

    I'll say that its human nature to love, but most humans dont.

    So I guess thats just MY nature. I want a utopia where everyone loves everyone and shares,

    Of course, the rest of the world does not seem to be ready for it, the problem is, our technology is ready for this, when you have nano technology, if you arent evolved enough to handle it, you'll use it to destroy yourself.

    Its no diffrent than giving a monkey an atomic bomb and letting him play with it.

    The problem with most people on this planet is they dont seek enlightenment, they dont TRY to improve theirselves,

    I'm not christian, but i believe what jesus and other prophets were trying to teach us, is we should constantly improve ourselves, and search for enlightenment.

    Most people are satisfied living like cavemen, doing stuff they shouldnt be doing and having no morals, they dont even give it any time to think that what they are doing is WRONG.

    War isnt Human Nature, its Caveman nature, not every Human is a Caveman.

    --
    If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
  66. YARP (Yet another repost) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could 5 people repost this post 5 times each so there will be 25 + 1 Copies of this post.
    Repeat so there is 625 + 25 + 1
    And keep repeating until slashdot has been DoSED

    Lameness filter breaking code : 5455433

  67. Sadly incomplete by Anti-Microsoft+Troll · · Score: 1

    It leaves out Microsoft's deadly quarrels with Netscape, Sun, Stac Electronics, the consumer, the USDOJ (surrender treaty being negotiated), etc.

    How come the UN isn't prosecuting them for war crimes?

  68. i can't believe this: by cosmo7 · · Score: 5, Funny

    doesn't any country realise that the best way to win is to conquer australia first? you get five extra units and you only have to defend two territories.

    1. Re:i can't believe this: by SirWhoopass · · Score: 2

      Exactly! I always love to start with a power base in China. Drop in to secure Australia and then smack the rest of the world.

    2. Re:i can't believe this: by Darth_Burrito · · Score: 3, Informative

      I like to snag Austrailia too, but let's be honest, it's in the middle of nowhere. Once you have Austrailia where do you go from there? Asia and Europe are the hardest continents to win and hold.

      The best strategy is to go for the Americas. You only have to defend two territories in South America and it gives you an excellent staging ground to move into North America which only has three territories to defend. But perhaps best of all, if you take North America you only have to worry about attacks from South America, Europe, and Kamchatka. In all likelihood, your enemies along these fronts will have much larger fronts to defend elsewhere so they won't be able to commit as many troops to attacking your 3 key territories. If you own north America, any South American player will either be dying or fighting for Africa while trying to hold you back. A European player has far too many possible points to defend to be launching an assault into Greenland. Similarly, an Asian player will be fighting to secure the most difficult continent in the game. Provided you don't piss him off by taking Kamchatka every other turn it is in both of your best interests to leave each other alone.

    3. Re:i can't believe this: by SirWhoopass · · Score: 2
      Once you have Austrailia where do you go from there? Asia and Europe are the hardest continents to win and hold.

      You answer your own question. The key to holding Asia is to hold Australia first. It gives you a secure base from which to launch into China. Anyone already in Asia will be fighting for their life on several fronts, so you should be able to chip away at them from the south. By the time you have to defend a wide front you now own Australia and Asia, so you can kick anyone's ass.

  69. Bunch of Pacifist Pussies (ergo Socialists) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Get over yourselves.

    Human history is built upon the foundation of violence. It is our nature, bred and true. We kill what we do not understand or fear.

    The representation is awful by the way. Some nations on this earth have been in existence for a very long time, including Turkey, China (and most of asia), England, Spain, etc. It does not account for scale of population over time, modern warfare, duration of war, and the full scale of recorded history.

    I think if you go back to antiquity, accounting for population and scale of conflict/time and track the entire 'web' of war, you will discover that China, closely followed by the tie of Spain and England are the greatest killers of man and responsible for death on scales that rival the plagues of the dark ages themselves. In a close third would be Christianity, followed tightly by the Moslem faith.

    The US has not killed nor engaged in the frequency of war that many of the other nations on earth have, nor have they started (directly) any of the wars they were involved in... indirectly an argument can be made that the US properity and/or penchant for interference in foreign politics and economics has inadvertantly caused several of the wars, but that is a side show.

    Also, the lack of showing civil conflicts and politically motivated purges (massacres) really skews the numbers further! The Chinese intellectual purges of the 50's, Rowanda, Nazi death camps, Stalin's purges of the 30's, Cambodia, etc... I bet if you count up the corpses there that were not the result of direct conflict with another nation the pile reaches far higher than the one created by war...

    Don't you people get it... until evolution gives mankind the power to fully supress this, or alternately evolution takes this urge away, we are killers... the worst kind because we kill our own and everything else indiscriminently. Worse still, our greatest innovations in science, politics, and morality have been stimulated or directly caused by conflicts.

    1. Re:Bunch of Pacifist Pussies (ergo Socialists) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that's all very well and good, but...

      have YOU remembered to FUCK YOURSELF with a freshly frozen aluminum baseball bat today?

      ram it up your pompous ass!

      thanks, bye now!

    2. Re:Bunch of Pacifist Pussies (ergo Socialists) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Repost this comment on untill slashdot is DOSED!

    3. Re:Bunch of Pacifist Pussies (ergo Socialists) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes sir!

      believe i WILL!

  70. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by Stonehand · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Let us know when you make peace with bacteria and viruses trying to infect you. There are many abuses that do not involve war, but can only reliably be stopped by it, like genocide and tyranny...

    --
    Only the dead have seen the end of war.
  71. Repost till it hurts! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Repeat so there is 625 + 25 + 1
    And keep repeating until slashdot has been DoSED

    Lameness filter breaking code : 5455433
    8787897978789

  72. what is the temperature coefficient of war ? by phkamp · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The most intriguing finding so far is a dramatic, century-long lull in the 1700s.

    This is actually a very interesting detail, the 1700s amongst other things had "the small ice-age" where temperatures in europe were significantly lower than normal.

    Considered together with the traditional wisdom of "hot tempers" in southern climates, (the middle east being the poster boy), this points to the obvious solution to world peace: Move everybody to Mars where the temperature is lower than on this war-ridden planet.

    --
    Poul-Henning Kamp -- FreeBSD since before it was called that...
    1. Re:what is the temperature coefficient of war ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      42, of course.

      everyone knows that.

      you dope.

      but, i digress... w00t.

  73. Oh, and lets not forget... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Colonization and the policy of corruption and biological warfare that the Europeans are so famous for during the 1600-1800 time frame... 100 million + indians enslaved and or killed off deliberately by biological warfare. Not too mention the african tendency to kill off an entire nation over an insult, or the intent of the chinese to freelance their men in Korea human wave style without declaring war (where would a non-declared war fit in this scheme anyway???).

    1. Re:Oh, and lets not forget... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      dammit, that's all very well and good, but remember to:

      Repeat so there is 625 + 25 + 1
      And keep repeating until slashdot has been DoSED

      Lame-assed filter, fucking code : 5455433
      8787897978789

      stop me before i post again! w00tness filter, unstoppable.

  74. OUCH! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that's all very well and good, but...

    Repeat so there is 625 + 25 + 1
    And keep repeating until slashdot has been DoSED

    Lame-ass filter fucking code : 5455433
    8787897978789

    stop me before i post again!

  75. This guy is a statistician? by Strange_Attractor · · Score: 2

    Brian Hayes' writing is excellent and very clear. How come a mathematician is responsible for one of the best-written articles /. has linked to in a long while!

    --

    ----
    WWJD...For a Klondike Bar?
    1. Re:This guy is a statistician? by kyras · · Score: 1

      1. Real mathematicians think of statisticians bastard stepchildren... I'm kidding, relax.

      2. What, like mathematicians aren't allowed to be good at writing?

      --
      Tastes like burning! - Ralph Wiggum
  76. Mathematics: Wrong tool by obtuse · · Score: 1

    Wars are no more random than Stock Prices. The premise of the book _A Random Walk Down Wall Street_ is that mathematical models are in the long run no better than random stock picking. That doesn't mean that stock prices are random accidents.

    The causes are to manifold and complex to yield to any simple mathematical model. No surprise, because we're talking about human behavior.

    By the way, the author of the paper makes your point:

    "This view of wars as random catastrophes is not a comforting thought. It seems to leave us no control over our own destiny, nor any room for individual virtue or villainy. If wars just happen, who's to blame? But this is a misreading of Richardson's findings. Statistical "laws" are not rules that govern the behavior either of nations or of individuals; they merely describe that behavior in the aggregate. A murderer might offer the defense that the crime rate is a known quantity, and so someone has to keep it up, but that plea is not likely to earn the sympathy of a jury. Conscience and personal responsibility are in no way diminished by taking a statistical view of war.

    What is depressing is that the data suggest no clear plan of action for those who want to reduce the prevalence of violence."

    --
    Assembly is the reverse of disassembly.
  77. HARP (Here's another repost) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could 5 people repost this post 5 times each so there will be 25 + 1 Copies of this post.
    Repeat so there is 625 + 25 + 1
    And keep repeating until slashdot has been DoSED

    Lameness filter breaking code : 5455433

    damn! ouch! mama! w00t!

  78. No Humans != Bacteria by HanzoSan · · Score: 3, Insightful



    Humans arent bacteria.

    You have ways of dealing with bacteria in the human body.

    First you kill the bacteria.(war) Eventually that may cease to work, at this point your body develops immunity to the bacteria (it defends against it) the evolution occurs when the body finds ways to make that bacteria "GOOD" and useful to the human body. (this is the route we should take)

    The Human Body even knows not to have war with something forever. It stresses the body (hurts the enviornment), it consumes resouces (money, time, effort), it kills many many cells (lives are lost)

    The body has an evolution process, you are saying we shouldnt? we should be in perpetual war even when we have nano technology and biotechnology? The technologies which allow us to control nature?

    I'm sorry but the rules HAVE changed. When technology reaches a certain point just like when the body is sick for a certain amount of time, it evolves, this is how we create vaccines!

    Vaccines are the cure, you can have a Vaccine for aids, or you can keep taking AZT drug cocktails and wait until its time for you to die from aids.

    --
    If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
    1. Re:No Humans != Bacteria by TheOnlyCoolTim · · Score: 2

      ... Having immunity/vaccination and killing germs are the same thing.

      When you are immune your body knows so well how to kill that germ that you just don't get sick from it because it is eradicated whenever it enters your body. For example when you get chicken pox, your body fights it and eventually kills it off, and then the immune system "remembers" how to kill chicken pox quickly and easily. Vaccines give the immune system this "memory" without making you sick, by various means such as dead germs which can't make you sick, but the body will still attack.

      Sorta ruins your whole analogy thing, sorry.

      Tim

      --
      Omnia vestra castrorum habetur nobis.
    2. Re:No Humans != Bacteria by HanzoSan · · Score: 2



      You can attack, learn to defend, or join forces.

      --
      If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
  79. WHO CARES how long the US has been around??!??! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sure, we aren't the oldest COUNTRY in the world, but we *ARE* the oldest standing government in the world! Every other government in the world has been completely overhauled and/or been overthrown/changed systems at least once in the last couple hundred years. We, however, have been a democratic republic since 1776.

    I guess that makes us the geezers of the world!

    "I was telling the truth . . . from a certain point of view."
    --Obiwan "the man" kenobi

    1. Re:WHO CARES how long the US has been around??!??! by danro · · Score: 1

      Yeah, your next revolution is long overdue man.
      Guess you better stock up on guns and tin cans...

      No, really.
      That you are a stable country is one of the good things about the USA.
      You sure are involved in a lot of other conflicts though... But lets not get into that now, shall we.

      --

      "First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
    2. Re:WHO CARES how long the US has been around??!??! by dissonant7 · · Score: 1

      We, however, have been a democratic republic since 1776.

      Actually, we were then and still are (technically speaking), a Constitutional Republic. In fact, up until the 1920s the US Govmnt's official position on democracy was that is was dangerous and unstable (check a WWI army field manual that describes the forms of government a grunt might find abroad).

      This country (the US) never has (officially) been a democracy. Originally, the only federal level officials you voted for were members of the House of Representatives. Senators were typically appointed by the state's legislature and (if I remember right) the President was decided strictly by the Electoral College (which is still true, but back in the early days the method for selecting the members of a state's Electoral College was left completely up to the individual state and didn't necessarily have anything to do with popular sentiment).

      My point is that we aren't the same country we were when we were founded. No, we haven't had any bloody mass revolutions (unless you count the Civil War as a revolution) since our founding, but we've certainly had plenty of smaller revolutions: the abolition of slavery, women's suffrage, expansion across most of a continent (through near-genocide of native populations), industrial and now information revolutions, women's liberation, popular elections, the civil rights movement, temperance (along with it's destruction and the continued anachronistic abomination that is the drug war), social security and welfare, etc, etc.

  80. deadly squirrels by DigiBoi · · Score: 1
    i immediately thought of squirrels that have begun to band together and go after humans now. i suppose they have a good reason, considering they have a tendancy to become tire traction for our SUV's.


    id be a little pissed off, too.

    --
    I put on my robe and wizard hat.
  81. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by AHumbleOpinion · · Score: 2, Informative

    ... Humans should evolve to my level, or else why should I consider them human? I can consider them animals.

    (1) Arrogance such as yours, assuming that you are human and others are not or that you are more highly evolved than others, contributes to war and violent behavior. Such arrogance and conceit contradict you claim of superiority. You share much with the murderers and thieves.

    (2) Extreme pacifism is not necessarily biologically superior, it may or may not be a failed mutation. An ability to engage in violence may or may not be biologically superior. What is known is that mathematical models suggests cooperating with others until they betray you is a very successful strategy.

  82. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by cardshark2001 · · Score: 1
    I can safely say that in terms of your DNA, you're no more "evolved" than any other human animal, unless you're severely mutated, in which case, we can't really call you a human, now can we?

    Besides, evolution doesn't apply to trolls.

    Good day.

    --
    WWJD? JWRTFA!
  83. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by PineHall · · Score: 2

    Are we more "civilized" today than 5000 years ago? I am not certain we are evolving morally. I would say we are not, or if we are evolving morally the rapid technological advances has given us power to destroy ourselves before we are ready. People today seem to think we are evolving in some biological moral way to something better. This is a philosophical (religious) belief that many today hold. I believe it is wishful thinking.

  84. estimating civilian deaths directly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    can be done with much greater precision (and more scientifically) than in Richardson's day. For the number of people killed in the Guatemalan civil war, have a look at the report of the Guatemalan truth commission (spanish) or (english). Or work done on Kosovo for the period March-June 1999.

    Note that the report on Kosovo was the basis of testimony used in the trial of Slobodan Milosevic. Streaming video of the testimony is here, see 13-14 March.

  85. Be careful! by PineHall · · Score: 3, Insightful
    This is 2002, Humans should evolve to my level, or else why should I consider them human? I can consider them animals.

    Be careful! A lot of people have used similar reasoning to justify violence and killing.

    1. Re:Be careful! by HanzoSan · · Score: 2



      Its not about reasoning, its about enlightenment, any enlightened or evolved person knows its bad to harm yourself, to be on that level you have to know we are all one, we arent seperate, what you do to your neighbor you are also doing to yourself.

      When you realize this you understand why terrorists like bin laden exsist, we created them through the process of wars with russia and iraq.

      When people get into wars, it creates hate which creates more wars.

      Its a cycle which only increases, in programming terms think of a loop with +1

      --
      If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
    2. Re:Be careful! by PineHall · · Score: 2
      This is 2002, Humans should evolve to my level, or else why should I consider them human? I can consider them animals.

      Is only an enlightened/evolved person truely human? Can you treat an unenlightened person as part of the "one"? Are they equal in value to an enlightened person? Are you going to love them too as you love yourself?

  86. How does this apply to Civ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...and Civ2, Civ3?

  87. Our social structure is suicidal. by srvivn21 · · Score: 2

    I don't think that it's humans in general. If it was, we wouldn't be here, as we would have wiped ourselves out eons ago.

    More it's our society. We encourage conformity, and discourage diveristy. This idea is not new, and certainly I did not orignate it, but I am doing my part to spread it.

    Read it with an open mind. Pass it on if you find it insightful.

  88. Like I like to say . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If killing someone is human nature, then I'm ashamed to call myself human. Better than human? Maybe not, but at least I'm trying.

  89. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by Iffy+Bonzoolie · · Score: 1

    This is the same argument vegetarians use, isn't it?

    -If

    --
    Run a pencil-and-paper RPG campaign with your far-off friends: Gametable!
  90. Lethality of real wars by astaines · · Score: 1

    I liked this article a lot.

    However it has one critical omission.Actual combat related death in wars are relatively few. With few exeptions, notably the truly appalling slaughter of combatants in the Iran-Iraq war and World War I,the real cost of wars is borne by civilians, usually poor people living in rural areas.

    For example, much of the economic devastation in Africa, and America is directly caused by civil wars. These are often the extension of former super-power quarrels in Africa, and US corporate policies in South and Central America.

    Note that these wars are often enthusiastically embraced by elements within the countries involved. I do not accept that all would be happiness and light if the USA were to sink beneath the waves, rather the opposite...

    --
    -- Anthony Staines
  91. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by hyperizer · · Score: 2, Informative

    Humans should evolve to my level, or else why should I consider them human?

    I don't think "evolution" is the correct word here. It's a common myth that evolution has a goal--that "higher" life forms are always the most fit. Actually it all depends on the environment. Some successful creatures are simpler than their ancestors.

    Of course our medical technology means that people who wouldn't have survived a couple of thousand years ago will lead long, healthy, reproductive lives. This isn't a bad thing, but perhaps it will prevent humans from evolving through survival of the fittest.

    I can consider them animals

    Humans are animals.

  92. Omit civil wars? Why?!? by abbamouse · · Score: 1

    As this graph makes clear, the predominant form of conflict today is not old-fashioned wars between states, but civil wars. As a postdoc at Penn State working on the Correlates of War Project, specifically addressing civil war, I've found that civil wars are increasingly common, increasingly deadly on a per-capita basis, much more lengthy than interstate wars (33 months on average as opposed to only 18), are increasingly internationalized through outside military intervention (at least half of civil wars since 1945 have led other countries to send troops to fight in them), are harder to resolve through negotiation (about 1/8 of the time for civil wars vs 2/3 of interstate wars), and are more likely to be followed by massacres and/or genocide. For several years in the 1990s, the ONLY wars in the world were civil wars. In short, looking at the "statistics of deadly quarrels" without including civil wars is like looking at cancer without including tumors.

    --
    Make cheese not war 8:)
  93. So what religion does America follow? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Given that the U.S. itself cannot be reasoned with, what religion would you say that the Americans are following that leads them to be such bullies on the global stage? Especially considering that more Islamists have died at the hands of Americans in the last fifteen years than the other way around.

    Is there some great big shrine to an oil well somewhere in the U.S. that everybody bows down to? Or is it merely a green god that spreads his word in tens and twenties? Or maybe it's just the God that dwells in its navel that America keeps staring at.

    But don't talk about how unreasonable religious fanatics are when the U.S. has a government in power that supports Musharaff's overthrowing Pakistan's democratically-elected predecessor, and is supporting another coup against a democratically elected president in Venezuela. I suppose this is just a logical extension of the fact that the president behind all this himself didn't get the majority of his own country's vote... think he's feeling lonely...?

  94. Not caveman nature... by srvivn21 · · Score: 2

    It's agraculturist nature.

    The caveman was perfectly willing to live off the spoils of the land. What good is more land, after all? It's only when you need more land to grow more crops to feed your increasing population that the "elimination of everything in your way" becomes important.

    How many different tribes of Native Americans are (were) there? Why wasn't there only one? Because they lived off the spoils of the land, and had no reason to eliminate their neighbors. Pick any tribal culture that lives off the land. You'll find the same cultural diversity living in relative peace.

    Sure they had skirmishes. If you don't keep your neighbors off balance, they might think you are weak.

    It's not caveman nature. They were far less violent than us. It was only with the agricultural revolution that humans decided there is "one right way to live".

    Daniel Quinn has some pretty interesting books on where (he belives) we came from, and where we are headed. One of my personal favorite articles (actually the transcript of a speech) is here.

  95. not another one.... by vvikram · · Score: 1


    i have seen this kind of work - forming connected graphs, rings , webs and nets :)lately in SO many places and furthermore having contributed to one such study that i _seriously_ begin to wonder whether this is a fad/fashion in the quasi-academic community rather than a useful endeavour.

    note: i am NOT discredting the effort or the conclusion but curious as to why these "graph" methods are so popular with people right now especially sociologists

    let me try to give examples : debian keyring of trust, stanford web network, open source study [i dont have the paper with me now], the web of wars [given here] are some off the top of my head.

    most of them are just number crunching statistics and that too many details looked over [example: civil wars here].

    oh...and yes, they look pretty i guess....

    Vikram

    1. Re:not another one.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      look pretty is the point. Everything is already known; so all thats left to do is make increasingly more byzantine graphs of what we know and desparately try to convince our funders that we are improving the state of education.

  96. Australia at war with Thailand by quokka70 · · Score: 1
    The "Web of Wars" shows a magnitude 7 conflict between Australia and Thailand, and nothing between Australia and Vietnam. Similarly, there is nothing between the US and Vietnam.

    I think the authors have assigned links due to the Vietnam war to Thailand.

    1. Re:Australia at war with Thailand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You either didn't read the article, or you don't know history very well. The Vietnam war was after 1950.

  97. Cliff Notes Version by Wraithlyn · · Score: 2

    "Thus the data offer no reason to believe that wars are anything other than randomly distributed accidents.

    ...

    war is mostly a neighborhood affair.

    ...

    The one social factor that does have some detectable correlation with war is religion.

    ...

    At all costs avoid the clash of the titans."

    --
    "Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
    1. Re:Cliff Notes Version by Wraithlyn · · Score: 2

      On the "war is mostly a neighborhood affair" bit, I thought I'd add that I think this is changing in today's high tech world.

      Of course most wars of antiquity were fought close together. Who's gonna send tens of thousands of troops on a leaky boat across the world? The supply line nightmares alone would destroy you. These days we can cross the globe in hours, develop space based weapons platforms, lob cruise missiles, and employ fanatical human vectors carrying bio weapons, suitcase nukes, or M$ Flight Sim: WTC Detail pack.

      --
      "Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
    2. Re:Cliff Notes Version by Guppy06 · · Score: 2

      "On the "war is mostly a neighborhood affair" bit, I thought I'd add that I think this is changing in today's high tech world."

      Let's go by continents.

      Africa: Northern part of the continent is predominantly Muslim and really don't like their neighbor Israel (especially Egypt). Sub-Saharan Africa seems to have at least a dozen conflicts (international or civil) at any given moment.

      Europe: All sorts of localized conflicts, from Ireland to Yugoslavia.

      Asia: India and Pakistan are obvious examples, but not the only ones. About the only neighbors China hasn't tried invading are either already puppet states or are quite capable of mauling China (such as Russia and India).

      Australia: Came pretty damned close to a shooting war with neighbor Indonesia recently. See East Timor.

      South America: Colombia is still trying to get rid of FARC. International relations still aren't all that peachy-keen down there.

      North America: Things may seem fine in the US, but once you get south of Mexico...

      "Of course most wars of antiquity were fought close together. Who's gonna send tens of thousands of troops on a leaky boat across the world?"

      Alexander the Great went from Greece to India. Hannibal got from Lybia to Italy by land. The Roman empire stretched from Scottland to Turkey. Genghis Khan had Mongols in Hungary. China has been that big for a very, very long time. Conquistadores conquered peoples on both American continents as well as various Pacific islanders (the ocean used to be referred to as a "Spanish lake"). England and France had the first globe-spanning war before the invention of the marine chronometer, let alone the telegraph.

      "The supply line nightmares alone would destroy you."

      Knowing where you are once you lose sight of land isn't a pre-requisite for sending an invasion force to another hemisphere. Look what Cortez did, and all he could do was follow a line of latitude.

      "These days we can cross the globe in hours, develop space based weapons platforms, lob cruise missiles,"

      Um... just because the US has a four ocean navy and manned spaceflight capabilities doesn't mean everybody does. Most navies are lucky to be able to project any kind of power outside of their territorial waters, let alone into an ocean they don't border. We're given the designation "superpower" for a reason.

      But even then it should be noted that the article pointed out that the "titans" were essentially everybody's neighbor.

      One has only to look at sub-Saharan Africa to realize that the vast majority of wars are still very much regional.

      "and employ fanatical human vectors carrying bio weapons, suitcase nukes, or M$ Flight Sim: WTC Detail pack."

      It's easy to get such human weapons into the US because we're the largest economy in the world and a great deal of the world's traffic is either coming to or leaving from the United States. See the "everybody's neighbor" comment above.

    3. Re:Cliff Notes Version by Wraithlyn · · Score: 2

      Hey, nice reply! I'm aware there are countless counter examples to what I said.

      But my main point is simply this:

      Technology is making it easier to wage long range warfare.

      Would you not at least agree to this?

      --
      "Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
  98. One thing that doesn't cause pain and suffering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is our delicious Yakisoyba, of course.

    YES!! WE HAVE YAKISOYBA!!!

  99. A quarrel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    DAMN YOU, RICHARD CRANIUM!!!

    you suck at unreal tournament

  100. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by Derleth · · Score: 1

    This is 2002, Humans should evolve to my level, or else why should I consider them human? I can consider them animals.

    This is 1933, Non-Aryans should evolve to my level, or else why should I consider them human? I can consider them animals.

    The same arrogance you have shown has made it very easy for people like Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, and Hirohito to kill off millions of their own people. The same arrogance you have shown turned the twentieth century into an abbatoir and is promising to make the twenty-first even worse unless the infants in the Middle East grow up soon.

    It isn't helpful. It isn't intelligent. It isn't even halfway cogent. It demonstrates a basic lack of understanding of evolution and a level of arrogance we can afford very little of if we wish to avoid war.

    --
    How can you use my intestines as a gift? -Actual Hong Kong subtitle.
  101. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by HanzoSan · · Score: 2



    A. Its not arrogance to see that by harming no one, you are better for the world than those who harm everyone.

    B. Pacifism leads to utopia, its the only way to get there, and the goal of every society is to reach this. Betraying is a moral issue, because I dont betray people, exploit people or harm anyone, if everyone else were like me also, we'd have world peace.

    --
    If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
  102. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by HanzoSan · · Score: 2


    Huh? Yes I am more evolved than Bin Laden, Charles Manson, Hitler, come on you think these guys are on my level? Maybe you can relate to them but i cant.

    Physical evolution is not where I've evolved, its my mental and emotional evolution that you forget to take into account.

    I'm not perfect, but i believe i'm better for the world than these guys I mentioned.

    --
    If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
  103. Re:vi vs emacs by hitzroth · · Score: 1

    Nonsense. Maybe those emacs nutbars can be thought of as cult members, but those of us who use vi are simply intelligent, rational decision makers.

    --
    In mathematics, one does not understand things, one merely gets used to them.
    --VonNeumann
  104. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by HanzoSan · · Score: 2

    vegitarians have a valid point however, people need protien, you NEED meat, when we have the technology to create meat in a lab or via nano technology, then vegitarians will win.

    We are almost at the point where eating real point will be pointless, but not quite yet. Atheletes cant really play sports eating soy.

    I agree with vegitarians, but in terms of killing for food, its survival for some, especially atheletes who have to eat meat to be an athelete and do what they do to survive.

    Its not the same with dealing with humans, theres enough alternatives to war with humans that war isnt needed. For a boxer like mike tyson theres no way hes going to knock out lennox lewis unless he eats a steak and patatoes meal every night.

    --
    If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
  105. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by HanzoSan · · Score: 2

    Survival of the fittest isnt the way evolution works on the greater scale.

    We arent the fittest creature on earth, the roach is.

    Its survival of the strongest, not the fittest!
    The fittest are often people like jesus christ, peace making types who if they ran the world, we'd have no wars and would survive alot longer, than if stronger but more self destructive types who love war survive.

    You see, people who dare to think out of the box, who may be evolved on the emotional level, they are considered weak because cavemen are more violent.

    Survival of the strongest not the fittest.

    --
    If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
  106. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by HanzoSan · · Score: 2

    No, Hitler wasnt evolved. He didnt try to evolve non arayans, he wanted to "KILL" them.

    Hows he evolved when hes the one getting violent? Attacking people shows weakness and instability.

    Arrogance? Its not about being arrogant, if you want to be like that, fine everyone whos ever been a monk, every profit, ghandi, jesus, muhammed, buddha, all of them were arrogent.

    Do you know why? Because they said the same stuff I'm saying, PEOPLE need to evolve, they need to seek enlightnment.

    I'm not hitler, I'm not going to kill you because you arent on my level, Killing you is killing myself, because we are all human and we are one.

    Its my responsibility to at least attempt to wake people up and get people to at least attempt to improve themselves.

    Improve yourself, constantly, all your life, enlighten yourself. If you have ever attacked or bullied a person, its YOU who need enlightenment, learn to not be so unstable.

    Look, its not my job to understand people who i cannot relate to, but i can tell them what they are doing wrong even if i dont understand why they do it.

    Why do people murder? I dont fucking know, but i do know its wrong and i can tell you why.

    I'm not arrogant, i'm trying to help, it seems everyone who tries to help, gets killed by some guys who call them arrogant.

    --
    If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
  107. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by HanzoSan · · Score: 2

    The problem is,

    If you do evolve morally, and ever share it, people kill you. Every single person who is a moral genius, they seem to get killed, and its because just like in the times when jesus was killed, the bad still outnumber the good. The morally ignorant still outnumber the moral geniuses and until the balance shifts, and the pacifists or whatever the hell you want to call them outnumber the war loving hate loving idiots, well, the worlds headed for self destruction.

    When you have a war filled with people who love to hate and who love war, these people will hate anything and that includes themselves, they will have war with themselves until they destroy themselves.

    --
    If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
  108. interesting article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now heres an interesting article, I thought, as I read...

    Statistics of Deadly Squirrels.

    Not quite sure what I was thinking.

    --sig----
    I have a username, but I dont feel like logging in.

  109. Nationalism is as big as religion. by zCyl · · Score: 3

    Religion frequently serves more as a justification for war, rather than a cause of war. Nationalism is the root of war. There are very few wars fought over matters of principle, the principle is either stapled onto the side, or lost in the rush of nationalistic fever.

    When the world's people view themselves as the world's people, then there can't be war. Let's look at the U.S. and Canada. It doesn't really matter what happens between the U.S. and Canada, they can't go to war over it because the people of these two countries don't really differentiate between each other.

    War begins with this idea that "this is my nation, and therefore I will make sure no other nation is dominant over it." At its heart, this is an ingrained instinct for territorial defense and social grouping. The problem comes when people start viewing their social group as separate from another social group, and then everything seen and heard becomes biased in favor of ones own social group.

    It's like sports teams. There are people who just like a sport, but those people are rare. Usually when people say they like a sport, they really mean they like a particular team or two, and they root feverishly for that team even though they have no personal connection to that team. If their team loses, they don't enjoy the fact that a game they really like was played, but instead lament the fact that "their team" lost.

    Team mentality is very similar to nationality. People usually like teams that are from where they are from, just because. People feverishly support their own nation just because that's where they were born. And in this rush to feverishly "defend ones own," everyone forgets the macropicture of humanity.

    Patriotism is inherently a great concept, it just gets so twisted and mutilated when people start thinking in war mode. As soon as the mental war mode is enabled, the entire world is viewed through a lense of false dichotomies, where everything is either black or white, us or them, dead or alive, free or enslaved. These false dichotomies bring out the most powerful emotions in people and the quest for the blood of the enemy begins.

    As soon as emotions come into play, the brain has to find justifications for its hatred, justifications for why the enemy is different, why the enemy is evil, and why ones own nation is good and just and right. The mind will go to great lengths to find and believe these justifications, on both sides of every conflict, and we end up with two groups of people mindlessly rushing head-on to their mutual impending doom.

    The only defense the world has against war is the free dissemination of people, culture, ideas, religions, and values. Only when the world achieves a near homogenous mix will it be difficult to find those differences which make it so easy for humanity to justify thoughts of war.

  110. 5000 years ago... by DG · · Score: 2

    ... all humans were illiterate, because writing had not been invented yet.

    5000 years is NOTHING on an evolutionary time scale.

    We're all still primates. We display primate behavior all the time. Our weapons have evolved far faster than we have.

    DG

    --
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    1. Re:5000 years ago... by HanzoSan · · Score: 2

      Thats the exact point i was trying to make.

      We need to evolve, not just through technology but all around.

      The problem with thhe current system is, we give technology to people who arent evolved enough to handle it, the creators of the technology are evolved usually, you dont see geeks lining up to go to war.

      The problem is, geek dont run the government, geeks dont make up the majority, so what you have is like 5 percent of the population creating all the technology thats fine for this perfect of the enlightened population, but the rest of the population just arent ready for it.

      People like george bush the president, hes not ready for cloning or nano technology.

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  111. Do changes in tactics have any effect on data? by Guppy06 · · Score: 2

    I'm not sure the order of magnitude of the effect, but it would seem that the overall stratiegic and tactical theories that are in vogue at the time of the war directly relates to the casualties it produces. A lot of the death toll of the Great War can be laid at Clauswitz's (sp?) feet, while the teachings of Sun-Tzu seem to be SOP of today (special ops are used a heck of a lot more now than they were 100 years ago, and to greater effect).

  112. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by AHumbleOpinion · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A. Its not arrogance to see that by harming no one, you are better for the world than those who harm everyone

    Your original quote: "Humans should evolve to my level, or else why should I consider them human? I can consider them animals"

    Believing yourself to be superior or more evolved is arrogant and that particular belief of yours is shared with many who have killed and committed genocide. It is one rationalization they use to commit such acts. Dehumanizing the enemy is a standard technique used to prepare soldiers for war. You are delusional to think that you are evolved beyond such people.

    B. Pacifism leads to utopia, its the only way to get there, and the goal of every society is to reach this.

    Pacifism leads to extinction, pacifists can only survive if non-pacifists protect them. Violence in the name of self defense, not personal gain, leads to a better society.

  113. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by AHumbleOpinion · · Score: 1

    Yes I am more evolved than Bin Laden, Charles Manson, Hitler, come on you think these guys are on my level? Maybe you can relate to them but i cant

    Given your statement: "Humans should evolve to my level, or else why should I consider them human? I can consider them animals" your mental process relates with the above far better than you are aware of. You are in denial.

  114. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

    "No, its caveman nature. This is 2002, Humans should evolve to my level, or else why should I consider them human?"

    It's human nature to consider yourself better than everybody else.

  115. Re: War is evil -- or is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Launching a war with at least 60 million plus deaths counts as evil to me.

    That's a little one-sided.

    Was Regan "evil"? Is Bush "evil"? They're launched wars, not knowing what the outcome would be. If sixty million people had died, would they suddenly become evil then?

    To pick a case close to home: the US felt justified making (not supporting) a war against Afganistan, because their leaders refused to hand over a "terrorist".

    In World War I, Germany supported an ally (Austria) that was making war on Serbia for refusing to hand over a "terrorist".

    Britian, France, and Russia supported Serbia's right not to have to answer to Austria (in CNN style purple prose, you in the U.S. might call them "on the side of the terrorists" -- I wouldn't). I think both sides had a case -- in many ways, no one was in the right.

    War broke out.

    By the end of the war, somehow the winning side claimed the right to own the best lands in Germany, and, by the way, to declare that the ugliest, bloodiest mess in human history was all Germany's fault, and the German people should be forced to pay for all the damages.

    Without resources, and a sudden "war debt" they couldn't hope to pay, the German economy collapsed overnight.

    Strangely enough, the German people a generation or two later grew up poor, unhappy, and full of hatred towards outsiders. Being told the ugliest war in human history is all your fault doesn't do much for a person's ego, or so I'm told.

    So, the people are unhappy. But they're not crazy! When the Communist party becomes a majority party, the majority of the people think to themselves "better dead than Red!", and vote for the other guys. The Nation Socialists, or whatever. They're a bunch of right-wing wing nuts, sure, but at least they aren't the commies!

    Then the non-commies took over martial law, lied to their people, inflamed their anger and their hate, and gave them a chance to fight against the people who had quite deliberately engineered their unhappiness.

    They were going to take back the lands that had been taken from them! They were going to fight back, and not pay war taxes to the oppressors!
    They weren't going to take it anymore! And this time, the British would pay!

    ( Sound familiar to anyone from the US? It should. ;-) )

    Was their reaction justified? No. Was it human? Yes. People lash out when they're hurt -- they blame others unfairly when they're blamed unfairly. People hate back when they're hated.

    World War II was really just the foreseeable outcome of World War I. The atrocities and the death camps that took place are unforgivable, but they weren't even known to the common soldier at the front.

    I'd hoped we'ld learn from history. But after watching CNN, and seeing the anger, and the vehemence on both sides of the "War on Terror", I wonder if we've learned anything about the value of human life.

    Somehow, I don't think so. If we did, there would be less war planes in the world, and fewer starving children.

    P.S. Of course Hitler was evil. But really, why hate him for launching a war, when that was the most forgivable of all his actions?!?

    Rendering innocent human in death camps for soap, simply because of their religion -- now that counts as evil!!!

    P.P.S: The Goodwin meter on this post just pegged.
    :-)

  116. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by BlowCat · · Score: 1
    It demonstrates a basic lack of understanding of evolution and a level of arrogance we can afford very little of if we wish to avoid war.
    Wrong. It demonstrates that you have been trolled :-)
  117. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by HanzoSan · · Score: 2

    I consider myself better than everyone whos dead.
    I consider myself better than sperm which didnt make it into the womb.

    I consider myself better than murderers and haters.

    Not all humans are equal, i wish it could be that way but its not, humans who harm others along with the enviornment, arent as valueable to that enviornment or to others.

    Do you value your best friend, an a random asshole, on an equal level? PLEASE!

    There is a such thing as quality of character, some people are good people, some people just arent.

    I feel sorry for people who have such problems, and YES THEY DO have a problem. I'd try to help them if they asked for it, its not that I think I'm better, I have problems too, the diffrence, my problems arent as great as theirs, so who do people want to be around, hitler? charles manson? or me?

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  118. how should we define human? by HanzoSan · · Score: 2


    We can define it by how much of an animal you are.

    Or we can define it by how enlightened you are.

    Most people would choose to define being human, by an enlightened picture of buddha, jesus christ, or any of these men, most people do not want to assosiate being human with hitler, bin laden, and those men.

    Pick a side.

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    1. Re:how should we define human? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is a tribute to your homosexuality that you suggest such vile practices between 'humans' and 'animals'. God damn. People like you make me sick.

  119. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by HanzoSan · · Score: 2



    Well Humans who act like animals are animals, alot of humans in fact the majority of them act like animals.

    My definition of being human is someone whos enlightened. This is my personal definition.

    Now, just because the majority of humans are animals and I truely believe the majority of humans act like a bunch of apes, pandas, bears and lions just like the rest of these animals.

    Well, why should I lie to myself and pretend they are on my level when they just arent?

    Any human who is willing to commit murder, whos willing to steal, rape, and exploit, they are no diffrent than a beast.

    Does that mean you have the right to disrespect them? No. Does that mean you have the right to kill them? No.

    You respect cavemen equally to how you respect enlightened men.

    But this doesnt change the fact that I feel most of the people in this world are cavemen, You know its true, you hear about people killing each other every day, you see what goes on, you can live in denial, you can try to accept people you could never relate to, or you can accept the fact that you'll never understand them and they are apple and you are oranges and that you are two completely diffrent species of human.

    They have traits which you dont have.
    You have trais which they dont have.

    By this, I mean one group is naturally violent and self destructive, one group is naturally peaceful and loving.

    Theres no in between here, so you have to take a side on this issue, either you are peaceful, or you arent.

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  120. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by HanzoSan · · Score: 2


    Protect them from what?

    If theres only pacifists theres nothing to protect us from!!

    Its the non pacifists who create war, crime, hate and everything bad in the world.

    Tell me, if you are a pacifist, and theres no hate in the world, whats going to kill you? The only thing you'd have to worry about are the natural elements, and the animals, and we've had that in check for thousands of years now and that has nothing to do with human nature, thats survival.

    Violence in the name of self defensive = pacifism.
    I dont attack anyone, but if someone attacks me i'll defend myself. I think 99 percent of the population would defend themselves as well if in the same situation.

    The diffrence is, a Pacifist is never the one ATTACKING.

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  121. stop saying "our", say THEM by HanzoSan · · Score: 2

    Because I refuse to assosiate myself with predetors.

    Yes alot of people are like that, some people have evolved past that.

    I dont have those instincts, some people do, who will win?

    Fact is not every human has the same instincts, it starts off the same, everyone knows how to crawl, drink milk and speak, but thats about it.

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    1. Re:stop saying "our", say THEM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry to nitpick, but it's not an instinct if every member of the species doesn't have it. And don't call it evolution if you're talking about how you're more high-minded than someone else. Evolution refers to genetic material, etc. Just say you're nicer, it's a lot easier to understand.

      Now, to throw my two cents in, I don't think nicer people win. Being nice is a good thing in general, but if someone attacks you, it helps to be ready to defend yourself. Anything else is a little silly, unless you're so enlightened that you're about to achieve nirvana/ascend bodily into heaven/etc.

  122. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Such arrogance and conceit contradict you claim of superiority.

    Belief in one's superiority is evidence of inferiority?

    I've heard that one before. It's funny every time.

  123. mod parent up[ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We need to learn to mind our own business and if a country wants to not be capitalist then let them not be.

    Somebody mod that up. US refusal to let Cuba go its own way damn nearly led to WW3 in the early 1960s.

  124. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by Iffy+Bonzoolie · · Score: 1

    I actually agree with you entirely and, presumably, we already have that technology. I would much rather be a "killing-free" meat-eater than the killful (?) meat-eater that I am. I'm waiting for this to be available at Black Angus.

    -If

    --
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  125. Cool, but true? by jmerelo · · Score: 1

    I haven't checked all countries, but my very own, Spain, is shown to have been at war with some (but not all) Latin American countries, and also Cuba and the US; if the Spanish-American war of 1898 accounts for that link, then I guess Philippines, who was lost to Spain in the same war, does also. Besides, if the Morocco link is due to the independence from Spain, in the 50's, then Equatorial Guinea should also be included in that link...

    There are also other links I can't fathom: Australia against Thailand? Ah, yes, that was the famous III oz-thai war over the debut of "The Beach"... It would really help if it would be possible to access the data over which that graph is based...

  126. chances for conflict by Veteran · · Score: 2

    If you are the only person in the room - there is no chance for conflict with anyone else in that room. If there is another person in the room - there is a chance for conflict. Like chemical reactions; conflict goes as the square of the density of the reactants.

    What is remarkable is not that there are wars - but that there is not a continuous war with everybody fighting all the time.

    Given the possibility for conflict - people actually get along really well the vast majority of the time - if they didn't we couldn't exist.

    If war were a common occurrence it wouldn't be newsworthy; the news is reserved for extraordinary events.

    The problem with improved communication is that in effect - you expand the size of your 'room' which increases the number of people who are inside of it - thus greatly raising the chance of conflict.

    If I don't write anything here there is zero chance of my ideas creating conflict with other poster's ideas. In a very real sense isolationism is the only way to prevent conflict - of course there is an enormous price to be paid for isolationism.

    Show me any species of creatures which exist on this planet without conflict - there isn't one - there can't be one; life itself is in conflict with death.

  127. Don't you get it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The United States is a scary place in which to live!

  128. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by Tardigrade · · Score: 1

    Fitness, in this context, is a biological term. It annoys the pedant in me when people take a term, remove it from context, apply a different context's definition to it, then reapply the newly defined term to the old context. You've done it with clones, and you've done it with fitness. Please stop.

  129. what magnitude is the "war" on drugs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh that's right, it's not really a fucking war, so there isn't any fucking data.

    There is no known enemy, just a behaviour that is being outlawed. At any given point anyone may or may not be "the enemy"

    What a crock of shit when compared to REAL wars.

  130. Re: War is evil -- or is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Aye man. Whay-aye.

  131. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are an idiot. Shut up.

  132. Re:Everyone who claims human nature doesnt conside by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You stupid pig fucker. Shut the hell up or I'll shoot you in the head.