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Is Programming a Dead End Job?
Embedded Geek asks: "There's an interesting opinion piece at Embedded Systems Magazine about [embedded] programming being a dead end job. The author cites burnout ('Pushing ones and zeroes around doesn't sound like a lot of work, but getting each and every one of a hundred million perfect is tremendously difficult.'), prestige, and skill obsolescence as big reasons for programmers to quit or to go 'over to the dark side' and join management or marketing positions. While the piece primarily addresses embedded programmers, the issue is rising for IT workers and other tech workers. When the age issue is combined with the export of jobs offshore, it makes me nervous just to be pushing 35..." Even though the market is going thru a rough patch, and the number of detrimental aspects to programming are increasing (ageism and so forth), I still do not feel that programming is a dead end job. Computers are going nowhere folks, and as long as they are around, programmers will be necessary. People who are in this career for the money or the prestige may not like it after a while, but the people who are in this for something else will tolerate quite a bit before deciding to opt out. The simple measure here: "as long as you love doing it, you'll keep doing it." Isn't this true for any career?
Is This A Dead-end Career?
By Jack Ganssle
Embedded.com
(04/05/02, 02:26:14 PM EDT)
Become a dentist, CPA, or lawyer and odds are you'll be practicing that profession on a more or less daily basis till the day you retire. That seems less likely for engineers and firmware developers. How many EEs or software folks do you know in their 60s who still work as techies? How many in their 40s?
Though I haven't the statistics to support it, my observations suggest that embedded systems development is a field dominated by young folks -- say, those under 35 or so. Middle age seems to wean folks from their technical inclinations; droves of developers move towards management or even the dark side, marketing and sales.
Is salary compression the culprit? My students, all of 21 and armed with a newly minted BSEE, get entry-level jobs at $50-60k. That's an astonishing sum for someone with no experience. But the entire course of this career will see in general less than a doubling of this number. Pure techies doing no management may top out at only 50 percent above the entry-level figure.
Consider that $70k or $80k is a staggering amount compared to the nation's average mid-$30k average family income -- but even so, it's quickly swallowed by the exigencies of middle-class life. That $50k goes a long way when one is single and living in a little apartment. Life happens fast, though. Orthodontics, college, a house, diapers, and much more consume funds faster than raises compensate. That's not to suggest it's not enough to live on, but surely the new pressures that come with a family make us question the financial wisdom of pursuing this wealth-limited career. Many developers start to wonder if an MBA or JD would forge a better path.
What about respect? My friends think "engineer" means I drive a train. Or that being in the computer business makes me the community's PC tech support center. "Doctor" or "VP Marketing" is something the average Joe understands and respects.
Is tedium a factor? Pushing ones and zeroes around doesn't sound like a lot of work, but getting each and every one of a hundred million perfect is tremendously difficult. I for one reached a point years ago where writing code and drawing schematics paled; much more fun was designing systems, inventing ways to build things, and then leaving implementation details to others. I know many engineers who bailed because of boredom.
External forces intervene, too. Though age discrimination is illegal it's also a constant factor. Many 50-ish engineers will never learn Java, C++, and other new technologies. They become obsolete. Employers see this and react in not-unexpected ways. Other employers look askance at the high older engineer salaries and will consider replacing one old fart with two newbies.
So where do the old engineers go? Is this a career you expect to pursue till retirement?
Jack G. Ganssle is a lecturer and consultant on embedded development issues. He conducts seminars on embedded systems and helps companies with their embedded challenges. He founded two companies specializing in embedded systems. Contact him at jack@ganssle.com. His website is www.ganssle.com.
Slashdot, come for the goatse, stay for the trolls.
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Well, that pretty much sums it up.
Nothing else to talk about here people, move along to the next story.
Because no manager will ever allow a programmer to be paid as much as himself. therefore a programmer will always get less pay until you join them.
simple economics... You will NEVER see a CTO or CEO that is a programmer.... it isnt allowed.
(Note: Bill Gates is NOT a programmer. He might have been one in the past but that was not what he was good at. he is good at marketing and Business)
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I don't think of it as "dead-end", but maybe as a "losing game". I don't think we (programmers) can ever know as much as we want or need to know, but we get by somehow. We are constantly fighting against these issues, and are holding our ground, only because they (business) needs us. That is life, many jobs are like this. (maybe the medical profession, how many doctors know everything we would like them to know?)
Also, my approach to programming for a job is this: do what you love to do and money will follow. Maybe not all the money that you dream of, but if you love it enough and work enough, you can make a living. But you probably won't be a rock star.
room101 -- how much can you stand before they break you?
(they always break you eventually)
They'll have to pry my keyboard from my cold dead fingers.
The Blaster Master Fighting for Truth, Justice, and Evil Pie since 1979
I know, first person observation isn't an accurate reflection of a marketplace, but still...
yes i run a goth/punk/emo porn site.
And is exactly why Loki lasted as long as it did..
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
I think that programming is by NO means a dead end. Sure there is a bit of a tough time right now with the economy in its current state. But, we are just now seeing an emergence of whole new computational fields. These mainly being in the life sciences arena. Genomic sequencng projects are quickly overloading scientists with raw data that someone needs to turn into usefull information. The area of developing these tools is vast. Possibly more important will be people who come up with better algorythms for predicting protein structre and interactions based on sequences. This is an amazing field that has the promise of keeping computre scientists, biologists, and bioinformatics people busy for decades to come. I think the field is ready to make leaps and bounds.... and most definitly not a dead end.
I highly recommend the book "The Art of Innovation" which offers great ideas for kkeping workers engaged.
"I don't think it's selfish, to eat defenseless shellfish." -NOFX
Programming is a job. Ideally, you entered into it because you kinda like doing it. You often start out with maintaining or adding to other people's code or doing highly specified stuff. As you progress, you get more input into the design aspects, and perhaps even the direction. What could be better?
It's work, folks. It's not always going to be writing slashcode while sipping vodka in the Bahamas, but as jobs go it has a hell of a lot more growth and creativity than coal mining or clerking. I'm happy to be in the programming field. It beats gutting fish (an earlier job of mine).
A.
Just when you think people can't get any dumber.. Clearly meant to represent the World Trade Center? for God's sake, it's the name of the book, written WAY before Sept. 11 ever happened. Plus, why is a mention of the World Trade Center in any modern piece of work considered offensive?
Argh. Well, thanks for that bit of human stupidity, Klerck. Could you sign their petition, but put some page widening in it? That would make my day.
This is such a commonplace in IT and it really chaps my ham. If you can't keep up with the field, get out, but some of us don't have any problem keeping our skills up to date. No amount of whitepapering will eliminate the real value of experienced programming talent. Back off your HR dogs!
illegitimii non ingravare
You get into you because you like it, the pay is better than McDonalds, and your social skills are such that you can't interact with customers.
The things that make a person a good programmer are the same ones that stop you from being a good manager. So you can't move up and you're too valuable to the company to move down.
D
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Fortran, Forth, 6502 assembly?
What Me Worry!
The big problem with companies is that there are nearly 0 advancement opportunities for technical people without going to the dark side. The pay for people who like to have their hands dirty tops out far lower than the pay for managers or executives. I think companies need to take this into account and have technical positions extend to the upper levels of management. Director of engineering is probably better staffed by an engineer who understands the problems rather than a buisness person. But the buisness people don't like that-- and they're in charge right now. Kinda like never seeing a politician vote for something that reduces his power.
That's why I'm teaching CS in high school. Sure, I could be making more money coding, but I love to teach, I like my students, I get to play with all this old junk (and occasionally sleaze something new from downtown), I'm the head of the (one-man) department, and the benefits don't suck. I love this job, so I'm staying.
At least, I'll stay until they find out about the background beowulf cluster in the math department and the Tribes network in the lab...
Yea, maybe for stupid people who heard that it is the new "lawyer/doctor" profession and mom and dad pushed them through college to get that "coveted" CS degree.. hahaha...
anime+manga together at last.. in real time.
... even if that means getting less paid.
Two reasons:
1. I enjoy programming, and I have (some) skill for that.
2. I dislike managing, economics and the like and I have zero skill for those.
If it were for the money I would have been something else. But as long as I have enough for a living, I don't care.
--- Sueños del Sur - a webcomic about four young siblings
Computers are going nowhere folks
WHAT?! But I thought there was still so much we didn't know about computers for us to just scrap them! Aren't they an essential part of our lives???
Regardless of whether or not Cliff's right, I'm printing out my food-service resumes by the dozen and selling all of my stock in any company that deals with computers!
Personally, flipping burgers is a dead end position as I understand it. Doing the "same thing" in it of it self is not a dead end career track. As long as you like what you're doing, then that's all that matters, and making lots of money helps too.
Computers are going nowhere folks...
Guess I better just give up the idea of a job I love doing and learn to hate insurance or something.
Gonzo Granzeau
"Nothing the god of biomechanics wouldn't let you into heaven for.." -Roy Batty
"...computers are going nowhere....."
dude, you hit on the head
thats what the guy is also saying:) its a dead-end
V
And here I was going to school for this! Thanks a bunch /., you just told me how my future was going to turn out... ;)
This is my sig. Its pathetic.
It is only a dead end job if you let it be. I am 35 and I do programming on unix systems. Only time I am bored with it is when I am doing a lot of cookie cutting programs. The chioces they say we are moving to are options I would rather not take. If anything I would like to get deeper into rebuilding the system or work on device drivers.
You have to keep learning and changing, othewise you burn out, get stuck in a rut and turn over to the dark side
The company eventually went out of business due to lack of money management (ie: upper management was buying cars, paying ex-wife's rents, etc).
I turned to what I actually majored in at school, music. Now, I teach 20-24 hours a week and make about the same amount. More importantly, I feel that students (adults and kids) get something out of it. I mean, I can feel good after a day because I encouraged someone to learn a craft.
Compare that to running a report on aggrigate numbers for some smuck who needs it in 2 hours and just told you that he needs it.
I'd never go back. Period.
It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
I moderate therefore I rule!
--
I originally got into programming because I really love to do it. I can sit in front of a computer and hack away for hours (days) on end and never tire of it. However, at work, I often start to feel what the "burn out" effect that the poster was talking about. I've come to realize that programming is just half of the equasion. It matters what you are programming as well.
On my own personal projects, I get to choose something I'm interested in. At work, I don't. It amazed me when I realized that when I was feeling most "burnt out" was when I was concentrating more on my work projects and less on my personal projects.
So, now my #1 concern when looking for a new job is, "am I interested in what I will be programming?" If the answer is no, then no amount of "cool technology" or "cool workplace environment" can make it worthwhile.
"Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!"
I think part of this depends on how broad your skills are. Changing careers is very common these days, sticking with one career until the end of time is not. If you've actually spent the time to expand your education (and yourself) to something aside from a few specific thats will get you a good job out of college, then you will have the ability to migrate horizontally and vertically in life. I think it is fairly safe to say that you are less inclined to "burn out" if you are a jack of many trades, as opposed to a master of one.
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
Isn't the general idea of any career to start at the bottom and work your way up? In coding, you start as a basic coder, and work all the way up to. . . Senior Programmer. Anything beyond that involves management. If you view management as evil, then you've locked yourself into a dead end; but personally, I'd rather more programmers went into management - I'd literally take a pay cut to work under management composed entirely of senior/ace/older programmers.
.
So maybe "pure" coding is slightly dead-endish as a career. But if/when your skills start to become obsolete, or you're old enough to reminisce about "yon good 'ole days" to the 19 yr. old newbies, you may want to consider shooting for IT head, CIO or something. Don't give up coding, necessarily - just help get the Pointy Haired Bosses out of there. .
Hard work has a future payoff. Laziness pays off now.
...where they are not programmers, i.e. I have the degree, and they know how to use MS project.
Many small to medium companies are also run by ex-programmers.
My name is Earl and my name is stitched on my jumpers. Except it's not Earl and I don't wear jumpers. My name is Phyllis and I have a plastic card key-name badge. I am a code crunching monkey who slings all day at the bottom of the food chain for asshole users and clueless fucking managers. You will never let me do it right so I will do it over. Forever. That's why I'm indispensible. Now let me get back to my soul sucking veal pen cubicle so I can shit out some more gorp you don't give two shits about whether I'm proud of it or not.
At least it's not the fucking helpdesk. Then I would drink bathroom cleaner.
Software engineering, compared to most other fields, is still VERY young and immature. Despite the fact that "pretty good" software is being produced today, as the field matures there will be vast improvements in the quality of software applications. For many many years, there will be a need for talented programmers to produce the latest and greatest advancements in software.
:)
Don't panic
In fact, it's 1) Fucking hilarious and 2) Dead on.
Lately, he's been working as an independent contractor for programming Windows. He's been offered a position doing architecture design. He loves coding, and will probably do much, though not getting paid for it.
He feels that this is a very good step up, and no longer a "code monkey". He doesn't want to be in management (feels it would be the touch of death for him), and feels the same with any other position.
Long story short, he loves programming, but after 20+ years, he's going into archetecture of software. Programming definately helped him get to this level in his career.
Karma? Karma? I don't need no stinkin' karma.
My dead end is Mai Tais on the beach and more programming! I'm loving it.
I started coding for pure fun. Turned that fun into profit. Layed myself off. Now I just have fun, no profit.
Truly, a 'real programmer' doesn't give one hoot about a successful career and impressing the Joneses. He is like a crack addict who will live in a shambling garbage heap just to get his coding fix. If selling his wares gives him a mansion and a fast car, then so be it, but given a choice, he's always choose the addiction.
No way. A couple of things here make no sense. First off, I am making more money now working in the software development industry than pretty much anything else I could do. There are few careers I can work at right now that would even come close to what I am doing now. Sure, I can only get so far working as an engineer, but as someone mentioned, is pulling down a salary that is greater than 90% of the country SO BAD? I think not. And as far as the over 30 thing... hogwash, many of the developers at my company are over 30, most are, in fact. There is no age bias as far as I can see it. A 40 year old dude who is up to speed on the current coding languages will not be considered "past him prime". Hogwash. This may have been true before the bubble burst, but now HR departments are focusing on actual ability, and not just hiring any 22 year old slob who claims he is a java god. As far as foriegn workers... I haven't seen it here, and I work in a area that has a large influx of programmers from India. The software industry is here to stay. It pays a hell of a lot more than most any other profession, and few, if any, will pay so much for sitting on your ass and tapping away on a keyboard.
Certainly people who love programming will continue to do it as long as it is economically feasible to do so; but the reality is that most programming jobs aren't inherently interesting, and follow the general model for monetary compensation in return for performing a certain type of skilled labour.
Presently, programming is one of the better career choices economically for a certain class of young people, especially if they happen to enjoy it. However, as the submitter recognises, the long-term career aspects are pretty bad. Sure, the starting salary is good, but most progammers seem to hit a pretty hard ceiling after a certain number of years of employment, and there's nowhere to go as a programmer after a VERY short career path that often goes something like:
Software Engineer I
Software Engineer II
Senior Software Engineer
Thereafter, if one doesn't make a fairly broad career leap, one is stuck as Senior Software Engineer, which may be very rewarding or may not, but probably entails "standard" raises and bonuses for the next 30 years of employment (usually just failing to keep pace with inflation), presuming, of course, that one's skills don't stagnate (and are not perceived to have done so), people don't decide that you've simply gotten to old to be as useful as a fresh C.S. graduate, or that it would be more effective to hire a half-dozen Indian Ph.Ds (*cough*) for the same cost.
All in all, an ambitious and capable C.S. graduate can easily outdo his B.A. English lit/MBA friend for a few years, but will probably rapidly fall behind in salary, job security, and very possibly job satisfaction (programming positions can easily be more demanding and time consuming than almost any other profession). As a person in the former category, this is something I've become aware of, but have not really dealt with in the last few years.
I've no idea what the solution is, but I, for one, have a very firm belief that it is a significant problem.
As long as you slave away for someone else, that qualifies as "dead end" in my book...unless you are slaving away with a plan. Either a plan for a new job (going from programmer to managment) to slave away in, or a plan for financial freedom.
When you stop having ambition is when you start having a dead end job.
A modern day witchhunt.
You can only move up so far as a coder. Once you reach a certain level, you've pretty much maxed out and need to move on to something else. But it doesn't have to be the dark side. System Design, "Chief Architecht", things like that. Still doing techincal work, but not coding. Rather, telling people what needs to be coded, and let them go off and do it.
"as long as you love doing it, you'll keep doing it."
Well, the question is, "will someone be willing to pay you to do it?"
Maybe we'll all have to be Open Source programmers in our free time, and work at the grocery store to pay the bill. But then will have people laughing at us because of our job, when we try to run for pulic office.
Oh, wait sorry, mixed up my threads.
"The last thing I want to do is deal with a bunch of people who want something."
Major Major
Look at top corporations like Morgan Stanley for example, their average age is about 28. These corporations realise that the only people who will work like slaves and sacrifice their quality of life are the 'hungry' young people.
Older more cynical (i.e. realistic) people are not wanted in programming positions since they try and impose reasonable deadlines on projects, and don't say "yes" to anything in a bid to impress their boss.
If you are just code monkeying the latest VB or Perl for some inane business requirement or .com "solution", or administrate a few boxes in the average office, however, you are a dime a dozen -- and your brain is dead whilst doing the job -- which is my definition of "dead end". Do it to learn the ropes or for a bit of money on the side, by all means, but don't pretend anything else.
Everyone, and I mean absolutely every person I talked to told me to go into programming. I think people who don't understand the market to well see people like Bill Gates and think that there must be tons of money for geeks to fork in. The problem is that adults indiscriminately influence students to become 'computer professionals'. The reason I decided to take a different route is that I'm afraid that as more and more of these programmers flood the market place salaries are going to go way down as job opportunities become less prevalent. Besides that, computers are my hobby and I would like to keep it that way. If had to look at a computer screen all day I would hate the thing. It took me a long time to send this post between other tasks I hope its not become redundant already, but I will sent my apologies now just in case
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Programming is not a dead end job, but you have to face that it is essentially a blue collar position.
In fact, what a lot of people in the IT industry need to realize is that they are labor, not white collar, or maybe white collar labor. I am constantly surprised at the lack of unionization we see among helpdesk workers, applications programmers, web designers, etc. At some point people are writing this code, supporting and installing these products, building and maintaining these machines.
Yes folks, it's true that as a programmer you are likely to do the same sort of work for the rest of your life, like people on an assembly line, but Auto Workers have a union, the UAW. And it is true that like truck drivers it may become tedious and you will need to be assured of recognition ot get raises, but truck drivers have a union, The Teamsters. And, you might need somone to fight for your rights or supply you with benefits, things you need to remain competitive like training in new technology, or health care between jobs. Folks, you need a union.
Platforms are changing faster than people can. Because chips get faster there is less consideration to optimising and refactoring a system to make it compact, efficient and useful.
.coms?
Projects change too frequently and often have no vision behind them just a series of bullet marks.
No one is an expert anymore - if you change jobs every 3 years then after 5 years companies will have no real experts on any of their projects.
If u stay - u may become part of the wallpaper.
It really depends on what your doing - R U building something amazing or collecting a salary but REALLY using your brain to do so.
Further, not everyone at the bottom can reach the top and when those at the top seem to have profited so much for something they didn't necessarily create that can be disheartening - how many coders actually made money from $$$$$$
"Many 50-ish engineers will never learn Java, C++, and other new technologies. They become obsolete"
Life mimicking technology? Monkey c monkey do?
Trust me - I'm not cynical!!! HONEST!
"None of this shit works" -W.Shatner
A programmer has the disadvantage that their career is constantly changing. An Information Architects, General Managers, Sales Managers, Accountants, Lawyers, Designers, Doctors, all of those professions have had little to no change over the course of the past 50+ years. The two out of those that have had some change are the last two Doctors and Designers, although Doctor's tools change the people those tools are used on stay the same. Designers had a big 'wake up' call when switching from pen to paper to computers and that was a big switch.
:) but he has no clue on the ins and outs of knowing how to do it. Once you stop learning and stop programming, you are done. Things change so often and updated so often, you'll be out of the loop.
Now consider programmers, we are faced with a never ending 'upgrade' process. New languages and technologies affect everything we do. Once you get to know one thing, something new is popping up which will require you to relearn everything all over again. There are some basics throughout programming, but everything is based off of those basics and usually ends up adjusting it slightly. I can know Perl, ASP, CF, PHP, Javascript because they are all the same in their foundation. But each uses their own ways of doing things and I basically have to learn the ups and downs of each language.
My boss hasn't touched much programming in the past few years and he's completely off in knowning how to do things. He knows they can be done (of course anything can be done
Programmers are also 'last of the train'. Design and architecture in projects always get pushed back but usually the dead line stays the same. You end up with less and less time to program and end up crunching everything last minute. Due to poor workflow, the programmers get shafted and burnout can easily come around working those 70-80 hour work weeks.
I hate the way programming is done but it's what I'm good at and in some odd way enjoy. I could do without the crap that we get: the short dead lines, lack of proper testing, the non-tech knowing producers, etc. But that all comes with the job.
Burnout is high, people don't understand programming unless they do it, so its hard for people to understand the problems we encounter or the time it takes to do things.
If you want to program, expect to be always learning (it'll never stop), expect to spend a day figuring out a stupid bug, expect a lack of understanding or compassion from other non-programming co-workers, expect some long nights, and expect that you'll never be an expert in anything. If you think you know it all about something, you've cut yourself off from learning anything new...
Whether is embedded or systems programming, and I've done both, it seems that all the fun has been taken away. When I started working at Bell Labs 15 years ago there was a lot of excitement around software. Software engineers were the cognizenti of the tech industry.
This no longer seems to be the case. Perhaps its dot com fallout but I have been less than enamored of this industry for the last few years. I feel like we have become the tech industries factory workers.
I've been programming embedded systems for many years, am waaay over 35, and I've never been happier or had more prospects for work. If you're unhappy, then by all means move. Otherwise, keep your skills up (it's important to not continue to work on one system so long that when it goes away you're without skills to begin another one - change companies if necessary to keep this from happening) and enjoy yourself. One last piece of advice: be reliable. The hardest thing to find is someone who'll deliver on time and in budget, and not be a problem. If you're known for that, you won't lack for work.
And I am not talking about prestige, either. You know what? I LIKE being able to wear jeans and Tshirts every day. I like having flex time. I like working with technology. I like talking to the IT guys about PCs and stuff, and having them give me old equipment that they are going to throw out. I like that stuff. And I am not a programmer, I am in QA. But the atmosphere is the same for the programmers. It seems like those who aspire to be managers either are told, or feel the need, to "clean up their act" and hang out with other managers, dress up a bit, and shmooze. I am glad I don't have to do that. We have a pretty sweet work environment, which means a lot. Not everyone can say that. And in reality, pretty much EVERY job is a dead-end job. Where do you want to go, anyway?
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
If that's the accepted definition of a dead-end job, then I sure hope it's true. Those of us who have coding in our blood don't want to do anything else. I've been coding since I was 8 years old and it's still the only thing I really love to do.
Die-hard coders live for the crunch of a deadline; it's when we're at our best. If it means we have to go without sleep or food or hygiene then so be it, we couldn't be more happy.
When we have spare time, we code. Utilities, games, time-wasters, whatever strikes our fancy at the time. How many people go to work doing something all day and then come home and do the exact same thing for fun, and still enjoy it?
Speaking for myself, I can live comfortably off of a senior programmer's salary all my life. The extra figures don't mean enough to me. I love every aspect of coding and have no interest in a management position. Having just completed a software engineering course that felt more like a management course, I now know more than ever that this is true.
Some of us are just born to code. Those that aren't can probably tolerate it for a while, but then they'll want to move on. I think that's largely true of any profession, not just coding.
As for me, I hope I can code until I die.
The actual act of getting paid to program is a dead-end job. The act of getting paid to produce any kind of product for someone else is a dead-end job.
The reason is there's always going to be a finite amount of money you can earn. There's only so many hours in the day, and only so much people are going to be willing to pay for the hourly output of a single worker. Unless you produce intellectual property, and are one of the very, very few who can produce IP that everyone wants and will pay for, you're never going to escape the fact that your earnings will butt heads with an asymptote at some point.
Real money always has been, and probably always will be, in starting a business and skimming off the top of other workers. Once you can pay other people less than you can get for their work, you have escaped the limit, and your "job" is no longer a dead-end.
This tagline is umop apisdn.
Let's look at how things are. Development has got a bad reputation. Why? Well either stuff takes too long, stuff delivered is not what's required, stuff is unreliable and stuff is surrounded by a huge layer of bureaucracy.
Programming should not be a dead-end job if you can communicate properly with your users and deliver wha they want in a reasonable time. Traditional programming - meaning locking yourself away to play with the most effecient search algorithm rather than creating anything useful - is a dead end profession.
If you can solve real problems for real people, then you are useful and ought to be regarded as such.
This sig made only from recycled ASCII
While a machine may compile/test code for errors, it cannot replace the thought processes/creativity of the human brain. Without this, you have nothing - it has been stated here on several posts already that it may not be a glamour position, or the highest-paid in the company, but it will always be there. Where is all the code going to come from if there are not programmers actually programming. This article seems to paint a dark picture, but it really sounds more like an embedded programmer is burnt and thinking about a career change and decided to share it with us...
...we are from the government - we are here to help...
Computer Networking is 100 fold worse. Theres ZERO job security, and ZERO job thanks to all the 'get rich quick' IT training schools out there.
It used to be a good field. Now I wish I was in programming.
"Computers are going nowhere" should probably be synonymous with "computers aren't going anywhere" (which I believe is what Cliff intended), but they have very different connotations.
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
I've been programming for pay about 12 years now, and some of what Mr. Ganssle says is true: the pay doesn't increase as fast as a management or sales job does, and many managers will opt for hiring the young programmer, fresh with knowledge about the new technologies, as opposed to the old guy with his experience in COBOL and Assembly.
However, on the second point there is a solution for us aging programmers: stay knowledgeable on the new technologies! If you are a programmer who keeps up with the trends in technology, you are a much more valuable resource than the newbie fresh out of college! As the industry (and workers) get older, there will be companies that need programmers who know their way around the old systems AND who can program with the young guys too! If you keep your skills up-to-date, you should have no problems finding a great paying job!
Dead end job?? I think not.
Attention all planets of the Solar Federation! We have assumed control! - Neil Peart
Programming (and IT in general) is becoming more and more of a vocation rather than a profession. There will be a few 'superstar' software engineer/architect positions, but in the future most programming/coding jobs will be strictly vocational and will pay accordingly. The days of the kid out of school making 60,70,80+ to code C++ or Java are over.
If you're not learning new languages, methods, techniques etc, then YES it will be a dead end career. My philosophy is simple: the day I don't learn anything is the day I start falling behind!
Maybe programmers program because they like making good products as many have said. Myself, I like making lots of money, and I think I have IMTS (I Made This Syndrome). Ever since I was 12 years old (programming QuickBasic! woot) I have gotton a kick from showing people what I made. Be it friends, family, or coworkers. When I recently wrote 3000 lines in 5 hours for a quake 2 model loader/display engine from scratch I got that kick (read: ego boost). That is why I program. I program because it is one of the VERY few things that *I* can do and no one else can. People all around the world can run faster than me, jump higher than me, and sing better than me, but damn it, there aren't too many people that can code better than me. (obviously there are (tens of?)thousands of better coders than me, but considering there are billions of people on this rock I feel pretty special.) In a world where people are amazed you know how to reinstall a printer driver, writing neet programs makes the sheep see you as a guru. That is why I program.
-EvilMonkeyNinja
Mild Mannered Host by Day
Wild Hammered Programmer by Night
Please, please, please get out of the software field. It's a dead end. No one wants you here, you will be better off in marketing, or washing dishes, or detailing cars or food service. And besides all of that less compitition will drive up my rate. :)
Programming is a job. Plain and simple. And subject to the laws of supply and demand.
So if you've got guru-level skills at a programming specialty that is very much in demand and difficult to master, you will make outrageous dollars. If you are a hack VB programmer who can manage to not screw up an Access custom report too badly, you may find work, but you won't be making the big bucks and you may be the first one over the side when the waves come. Everyone else is in between. That's all there is to it.
Maybe I phrased it a little bit wrong up top. Programming is best described as a skilled trade. However, there are different specialties and skill levels within the trade. Think of auto mechanics. For every person who can diagnose a problem with your foreign exotic sportscar just by listening to the engine, there's a dozen who will never do more than oil changes - and they leave greasy palmprints on your dash.
For some people programming is a job. For the really good ones, it's a career.
As for me, I sucked at programming, so I became a net admin.
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
Rough Patch?
Come on.. We have been hiring for a long time now. There are plenty of jobs out there.
I am so sick and tired of people claiming there is no jobs out there. We try to find real programmers, you know the ones that can program in C on a UNIX environment. The problems we find in hiring people is that they want to be "Network Admins" or "Web Programmers". Give me a break, go to a 2 year college for that, dont get a CS degree for a Network Admin job.
Also, ever hear of jobs being out there but people are not willingn to take the "cut" in pay? Making 70k is NOT a bad thing, its a JOB and a good thing in most areas. Ever notice how people with less experience are turning down jobs that pay more than your job? They are thrill seekers if you ask me. There are so many jobs in traditional Military application areas and systems areas it is not funny.
Anyone want to please send me your resume.
winston@mageslair.net
and I will talk to you. YES I will try and see if you want the job, and talk to you about it. Considering I can make a good buck on good people, I am willing to talk to people who are smart, good, fun, and willing to take good money, excellent benefits, great job over "perfect money" and a "network admin" job.
Sorry for the rant, but when many companies like where I work are hurting for C/C++ programmers and all I hear is "We cant find jobs" the answer is GROW UP, there are plenty of jobs around.
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
The notion of "promotion" is seriously overrated anyway. Do you really want to spend your days talking to whiny investment bankers, composing meaningless vision statements, having half your company snicker about you behind your back, having all stress and no free time, and managing people problems? If you do, go right ahead and aspire to that management position. But there is a reason those positions are paid highly: it's hazard pay for dirty work most people don't want to do.
Seriously, people do what they like, what they get paid for, and what they are good at. Many people who aren't qualified as programmers would love to have a $80k/year "dead-end job" with full benefits.
As for the supposed age limit, jobs going off-shore, and all that, in my opinion, Matloff is a loony. His claims are poorly supported by data and contradict what people who actually try to hire programmers experience. Sure, occasionally, you'll see age discrimination, and occasionally you'll see companies taking advantage of immigration issues. But the former is already covered by non-discrimination statutes, and the latter has been addressed with H1B portability and faster green-card approvals. Jobs will probably continue to go off-shore, but the best way of stemming that is to bring the qualified programmers from those other countries to the US; if you force them to go back to their countries of origin, they won't become farmers, they'll create a thriving and competitive software industry there.
IT programming jobs are fairly horrible - you know, database work.
i did a database job for 3 years, and drove me absolutely bonkers - a decently smart CompSci guy should pick up everything you need to know about databases in about 6 months.
everything. and then for the next N years of your life, you spew reports that you could care less about.
now... true "systems engineering" type jobs... or lower level, more technical stuff - there is definite value in having more experienced people, and the burnout isnt a bad.
IT programmers have a useful life of 12 years. thats it. you will drive yourslef insane shortly after that.
... hi bingo
I'm only 23 and all the people over here are pushing close to 60. They're all still programming and have been since the days of assembly and object code. They haven't gone anywhere and don't plan to until retirement. They're all still sharp as a tack and are learning all the latest programming languages just as fast if not faster than the younger crowd. A common misconception is that you have to "unlearn" everything you've learned when moving from one language to the next. Most of the time, though, that knowledge is transferable and you get the edge on competition. By the way, they're all still loving it! I feel great to see older technies that have not become obsolete.
One of the most depressing things about being a coder is just the lack of progress in the software engineering profession. It's 40 years or so since IBM's System/360, which was ultimately successful as software but also massively late and over cost. And still we have schedule misses, having to hack stuff together at the last minute to avoid schedule misses, software shipping with gross bugs because it was done too fast and too sloppily, emergency fixes needed to fix buggy software that customers are screaming about, and so on. After a while you get tired of it. And it doesn't seem like just a few bad software shops have these problems. It's pervasive in the industry.
When I write code that replaces the need for lower coders, that will make your programming job a dead end. Time to optimize you out of existance.
who get promoted to mgmt. Their work sucks, but they need a job, and so do a song and dance about how they're better with people than code anyway, play the office suckup politics game and next thing you know they're telling you what to do. Likewise, no company would take someone just making good product and promote them to mgmt, they need them to keep pounding away at the forge.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
I don't know about anyone else but I don't really look at taking over the world through my programming job. (Granted, that would be a nice second job...) I enjoy the field because of the daily challenges that it presents. Not only that, every time a new project comes along (or I change jobs) I get to learn a new industry.
Warning: next part sounds like a 'consultant' speaking. But I find it interesting how a person entrenched in a job for 4+ years quite often is wearing blinders, unable to tell what happens in the company after the order/invoice/whatever leaves her desk. Its kind of interesting to learn why things are done the way they are (often because, its always been.. or the person before me did it this way... or thats the only way I know..) and offer alternatives/different paths/etc. Just my 2 cents..
In my situation, while the jobs have been sparse, and while I remain underemployed, I've been gearing the extra time I have toward learning new technologies as well as starting development on a system for expanded civic participation (that I call Democracy 2.0). And I've discovered something: Passion about one's projects is really as much of a discipline-enhancer and energy-driver as cold hard cash. When the economy picks up, this ideal will definitely be a factor in how I decide on future jobs. I hope that employers will work harder to create positions that programmers will actually want to take because they result in good karma (if you will) for the world; otherwise, I'll have to consider my career essentially over in the corporate sense.
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
The first trick is to retire at 35. You do this by putting as much into your 401k and any other retirement/investment vehicles as you can. Buy a home as quickly as you can so you can take the interest off your taxes. Then, if you want to make some money afterwards, you go teach.
IMarvinTPA
Trusting software vendors is no smarter than trus
You work for middle managers who are even more stressed out than you are because they're held responsable for everything that goes wrong when the higher-ups keep pulling resources.
Meanwhile you keep getting it in the shorts because "nothing is impossible to the guy who doesn't have to do it."
And when things finally cave, YOUR ass is grass.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
In my opinion (which is not so humble today) - the MORE ex-programmers move into marketing and managerial positions, the better place the world will be.
We've seen what happens when you put MBA's into marketing and managerial positions in tech companies. Hell on Earth.
The world needs MORE engineering-driven tech companies, and less lawyer-driven tech companies.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
If you look at the number of CS graduates at any level: bachelors, masters, Ph.D you will find that since the early 80s the numbers all go down.
Meanwhile every company that wishes to not go out of business uses computers more and more. The number of jobs naturally goes up.
Now supply and demand says that there are not enough qualified people to fill the jobs. Managers will hire people who are highly underqualified because they are desperate.
Why we think this is a dead end job is because companies try to get their few competant employees to get all the work done, an impossible task. The result is lots of overtime which salaried workers don't see any extra money for. There is also a lot of pressure and stress.
What employees don't realize is that it doesn't have to be this way. We have what they need. Say "if I have to work overtime on a regular basis I will find another job" and you'd be suprised how scared they are of losing you.
I work 40 hours a week most weeks. I don't think I've ever put in more than 50, ever. I am paid better than my manager. My company needs me. Your company needs you as well.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human.
You simply cannot get a job, even with current skills and a solid history. There is an inherent bias against over 40 coders, we are expected to have moved into management. After the dot com collapse and then the telecom collapse, there are a lot of over 40 coders out there from the mass layoffs.
I am one of them, 44 to be precise. I originally used to put my employemnt history back into the 1980's, and put the years my degrees were granted. And for some reason I never got a call back. So I took all the stuff prior to 1992 out, removed the dates from the degrees, and put the resume back out there.
Within a week, I got 4 job calls where my qualifications and resume were deemed "excellent" on by reviewers on phone interviews, and I aced the tech interviews over the phone as well (I used to be the guy in my group that did the C++ and Java tech screening!). Plus my references were checked, and I have excellent references. I generally interview quite well in person or over the phone, having been a member of Toastmasters due to needing speaking/presentation skills at my old company. Listening is as important as talking.
But when I show up at the "final" interview, in a nice tailored conservative business suit, with my short but gray hair, all of a sudden they seemed to get cold feet. And within a week of each interview every single one of them sent me a "Regretfully you do not meet the qualifications, your resume will be on file for one year" letter.
As long as this continues, then programming *is* a dead end job. You can get snarky if you like, but you'll be here in my shoes one day if you live that long, and you will be wondering why you cant get hired even though you can code circles around half their staff.
FYI, I did get a contract job 2 weeks later where all the business was conducted over the phone. I have had my contract renewed with a raise due to performance, twice, and thats despite the company going through 3 layoffs.
But I learned my lesson, Im getting my MBA and moving into management, even though I make a hell of a lot better systems-architect or software-engineer or developer/coder than I do a manager. I will miss coding for a living, but I'll not play martyr at the expense of my wife and children.
If the most important thing in your life is making your bosses happy, then yes, programming can be dead-end since they'll never be happy.
If your goal is to just make lots of money, then ask yourself what you're going to do with your money? If it doesn't amount to building a supercomputer in your basement and creating a turing machine, then maybe programming isn't for you. Whatever you want to do with the money you expect to make in programming is what you should be doing to make money in the first place.
I think the point is that there is nowhere to go once you are a lead programmer. I see this in my job as a consultant. The best consultants are usually just that, and are not ususally good managers/policy makers. The only place to go then is another company at which point you face the same challenge.
Solution: Deal with always being a programmer or develop the people skills that most of us techie types lack.
L053R
I thought that was what makeoutclub was for.
Seriously, I'd would never insult you with the compareson.
Hollow words will burn and hollow men will burn.
http://jobs.pnl.gov refrence number 103909
This individual will be a system programmer in the MSCF Operations Group with responsibility for maintaining and modifying the Linux kernel on a 1400 processor IA64 Linux system utilizing both the Quadrics interconnect and a 2Gb/sec SAN.
I wish I had some kernel programing experience. This would be way cool to work on.
The dark side is when you stop being a programmer of ones and zeros and start wrestling shiny objects written by Microsoft's programmers. When you call that "programming", you are over the hill at 30 or at 60.
Janitors will always be around. Programmers will always be around. What makes anybody think that being a programmer isn't a dead end job?
Just add to that the fact that India is competing to be the best IT country on the planet. Then being a high paid programmer in westernized countries is even harder.
The magic of making a computer do what you want is wearing off. People will become less and less fascinated with programmers, thus those jobs will be saved for people with no social and management skills.
The average geek and nerd should still learn a little programming for their own use, but ultimately, as far as careers go, people should choose something else
testing out my trending skills
Out of curiousity, I'm wondering how many people find themselves in the sort of dilemma I'm in. I see many people on here commenting on how real coders simply want to code, it's what they eat, live, breathe, and sleep. Now, I can certainly understand this, as I myself have experienced this exact same mentality.
However, the minute I started doing it as a career, my personal programming time has almost completely gone to nothing. Where I used to program in all my free time, I no longer feel like programming any more. It's not that I dislike it - there's no other career I would choose. But I find myself somewhat bored programming at work because frequently I'm doing the same things I've done before. It's no longer a challenge; rather, it's become a chore, because I'm not learning anything new. Occasionally I have days where I find myself required to do something new, and I get into it, but certainly not every day.
I'm having trouble placing why this happened, and what I can possibly do to bring some meaning back into my programming life. Currently I'm the only person working on a very large project, which I think is part of the problem. This particular project should have about 5 coders on it, but I am the only programmer at the company I work for, and the company I work for hasn't been a software company. We're trying to get a software department going, and there's certainly work for it, but there's never been enough to warrant hiring another programmer. Any suggestions?
I got a degree in Computer Science from Waterloo University. I am beginning to think I wasted 5 years of my life. U of W is one of Canada's best for CS... they came in 3rd in the last ACM contest behind MIT and Shanghi.
The degree was a lot of work. Many of my friends failed out. There was only 13% girls in my classes and most guys did not have or a girlfriend or have time for one during those five years. I had co-op work experience and had no problem finding a job at Cisco when I graduated. A year and a half later they shut down our division. Now it has almost been a year now and I still can't find work. I have skills such as Java and C++ and excellent references... but no one is hiring.
I remember a long time ago someone from Microsoft made some comment about Open Source hurting the industry. At the time I thought it was an absurd comment. But lately I've been thinking it may be true. a few years ago if I wanted a library API for some network protocol my company would have had to purchase something. However, now there is almost always a free alternative that is of great quality... so there is less and less companies paying people to program things because there are free ones out there. I dunno.. just a thought.
But still... if I had gotten something like a music degree.... I'd probably be equally unemployed right now.... but I'd probably be married too and maybe a little happier.
Twenty or thirty years ago, computer science and programming was limited to the academic circle and a few elite corporations. You needed to be a real expert to do the job. Nowadays, thanks to industry demands, the task is no longer the academic exploration of "what can we do with this technology?" but rather "make more widgets!" Companies like Microsoft have even made it easier to program (crap out more widgets) without even knowing how to properly type the code--simply click the button that describes the task you are trying to do.
Consulting agencies were great before the dot-com bubble burst, but now they are about as great as temp agencies, not doing much more than providing code monkeys to sit on the project assembly line and crap out more widgets.
If this is your ideal career, then more power to you. You can one day become a manager and supervise the code monkeys on the assembly line.
If you want to get into an academic, mentally-challenging career like CS used to be, then study the hard sciences (physics, astronomy, medicine, chemistry, etc.). Those are really the only careers that most people shy away from because of the work.
Let's face it, though, either you slave away for a few years in school, or you slave away for half your lifetime as a codemonkey subject to corporate whims.
1. If you're in this for the money, get another job. I'm in this for the intellectual stimulation. The fact is, I live in a country in which the standard of living is enormously high compared to the rest of the world. I make enough to live in a nice house, send my kids to college and buy fun toys. I'm doing just fine. Going into management to make a few more bucks is not going to make me any happier. You need to realize when enough is enough, moneywise.
1. I have yet to find an employer who is suffering from a glut of programming talent. If you're good, there will always be work. You just have to stay sharp and keep your skills up. It also helps to not work in an area which is fueled by young, underpaid programmers (such as the game
industry).
1. A great way to keep your skills up is to teach, using your gray hairs to other's advantage. I personally set aside one day a week for teaching. It's a money loss, but still rewarding professionally and pschologically.
0. Sometimes it sucks being managed by folks who are significantly younger than you. This is a psychological issue that many of us will all have to deal with as we get older, regardless of the profession.
1. On the plus side, one of the advantages of getting older is finding the rare job which has good management and sticking with it, instead of constantly searching for greater prestige and a fatter paycheck. I've been burnt multiple times by accepting more money to work for folks I don't respect. No more of that, hopefully!
Well,
:) ). These all make me very happy. EVERYONE hates thier job. Go out there and find something that makes you happy.
I began college with Mechanical Engineering in mind but then I took a required comp-sci course and it really appealed to me. At the time, I was an ex-geek who had given up the Doritos and Mountain Dew all-nighter lifestyle for something that was more suitable for a teenaged kid in suburbia high school (notably, girls and friends that I will have forever).
In any event, college rolled around and my geekness was awakened by this comp-sci class. I did not have a choice so I changed my major and became a reborn geek.
Fast forward to present day. I'm very good at what I do but I don't just see much *tangible* accomplishment. Sure - there is all this stuff that I have poured my heart and soul into but I didn't do it for me. Some will be quick to point out open source as a means of self expression or whatever but a PC is the last thing that I'd like to look at after a stressful day.
So what then? I've already identified that "geek" is the Hotel California of personality types - at least for me it is. All those 1s and 0s make a lot of sense to me. These types of jobs are the most profitable for me. The invisible hand put me here. I could have started my own business but I tried that. I am not cut out for that so I am happy to work for someone who pays me well for what I do best. As long as I can separate life from work and find something to make me happy.
In the end, I learned how to work for myself outside of work. I bought a house that needs fixing up. I'm currently installing an energy efficient hydronic radiant floor heating system (yes - there is tech available outside IT). This is required to satisfy my low noise floor requirement of the home theater that I installed a while ago. When I'm not watching/listening, I'm on my way out the door to go camping/canoeing (I actually just returned from getting my fishing license
This seems to be a reocurring theme on slasdot, eh?
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
What?!? Dude, you have some serious hero-worship problems.
Bill Gates sucked as a programmer. He was hardly a genius "back in the day." He used public-domain code to port BASIC to the Altair. That was about it.
Now, he ported BASIC to the Altair, a machine to which he didn't have access yet. But you know how he did it? Paul Allen wrote an Altair emulator. *Paul Allen.* This was the hard part, to write an emulator for a machine to which you only have specs, and no access. Billy G. did nothing but use Mr. Allen's genius to his benefit. This is his real strength: knowing how and when to use people.
As far as his job as chie software architect goes: that's a PR move. He did that to distance himself as the head of the company during the height of the anti-trust trial. Just a PR move, like the month they took off to "secure" their code.
Bill Gates was hardly a genius. His code was mediocre, at best. Kind of like your post.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
I guess another way to look at it is: Are you in it for the money, or for the glory?
:)
Those who only took up programming because they saw dollar-signs, and have no further interest in the art would, in my opinion, be the most likely to get bored/burntout/tired and jump ship to management.
I don't necessarily see this as a problem. I have had lots of problems in the past dealing with those types of programmers. Great people, but just have too much of a lack of interest in what they are doing, and therefore to a worse job than those who enjoy it. I say good riddance to them, and wish them well in management.
This frees up jobs for those of us who find this line of work interesting and actually, God forbid, enjoy our jobs. This increases our average salaries and decreases the amount of incompetence we have to deal with everyday (although some could argue that more management = more incompetence
Anyway... my point is: This realization, coupled with the dot-com bust is ultimately making things better for the average programmer (and by programmer I mean one who is in it for the programming, not necessarily the $$$).
It's not a dead end job.. I mean it's not even a job.. I see programming more like a drug... it might be killing me, destroying mi social life.. but every day I need a little more... help!
That does sound fun.
I got to spearhead the introduction of Linux to slowly replace our UNIX systems for the system deliveries we make to the various Militaries of the world.
Linux has less license issues, cheaper hardware, and seems close to the same reliability for our products. This is a fun time, but then again I can say honestly that in 8 years I have had maybe 6 months of "I dont want to go to work today" syndrome. That is great!
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
And you don't need access to a machine. Have you never written an emulator for a machine didnt exist? How do you think they design machines?
If only the real machines worked as well as the emulators!
-
Is Slashdot editor a dead end job?
Embedded programming isn't necessarily a dead end job but it is highly specialized. Specifically it specializes in the gory details that operating systems and very high level programming languages abstract away; (which is the whole point of their existence). My theory is that this is what makes embedded programmers such egregious kooks, much more so than the normal kookiness of that of the average /. population.
Actually come to think of it Jack Ganssle is a prime example, but then again I subscribe to Embedded Systems Programming
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
How many of you know anyone who actually stays in one career for life? Maybe if you consider your grandparents but let's talk about the world today. Even most of your parents have probably made a half-dozen or so career moves. Regardless of whether you become obsolete, there is a natural progression a person will take during their lifetime. As a person grows and matures, so do their career aspirations. People always want something more than they have, that is what keeps us moving. If you stopped wanting something better, then you become that 50 year-old who only learned COBOL. If your career aspiration is to program until you retire, then that motivation will keep you on the cutting edge. I have been to plenty of conferences with 50 year-old developers and in my opinion, those are sometimes the most intelligent people in the room. Sure, many programmers tire of learning new technologies and eventually move on to management, consulting, or something else completely-- doesn't that happen with any career? If you ask me, the piece is rediculous.
How many of you work with completely incompetant developers? I mean the people who just skated through school or didn't go at all but somehow kissed enough ass to earn the title? As long as those people exist, and they always will, your job will be secure.
http://www.askthevoid.com
Most programming skills do not become obsolete. New "technologies" come along all the time, but they rarely ever replace an old skill.
Take XML. Hardly a new idea. It's a markup meta-language used to structure data into a tree. Tree databases have been around for years; that's all XML is, just a markup language for 40-year old "technology."
Incidently: tree-structured databases were replaced by the superior set-theory based relational databases. There were reasons for this. What is old is new again; and what was once thrown out as inferior gets a fresh coat of paint and resold as new.
Obsolete my ass.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
A littel gin and tyd bowl after a day of user calls is pretty good.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
if by dead end you mean limited earning potential.
You cannot have limitless income potential
without reaching the position of benefitting from
the work of others. That means "business" -
finance, real-estate, or maybe law, and likely
not having a "job."
I don't think there are many people that have
the range to choose between that and being a
technical person though. The quarterback is
never captain of the chess club.
Turned 60 last week. Telecommuting programmer. Go to work in my slippers, take naps when I want, still bring home the bacon doing what I love.
Oops! It's after 3:00pm. Martini time!
Progamming in the modern world of computing is a one-time job. Software is written once, and used many, many times. Yes, there is software revision, upgrades, etc., but the bulk of work being done is being done by the /few/, for the /many/.
Therefore, there are only going to be a small amount of meaningful programming jobs relative to the computing industry as a whole, unless the general attitude towards software changes dramatically.
Now, administration is a whole different story. because software tends to be written by the few for the many, there are bound to be issues that those few never thought of. Administration is an ongoing job that everyone needs.
Personally, I think this is a big, secondary reason that so many geeks are perpetually hyped about open source software. It seems to promise that software development will cease to be a few-to-many service, and become a many-to-many service. I think there are a lot of geeks out there working in administration, frustrated with their jobs, wishing to become guru kernal hackers. They feel that if the IT world at large would simply embrace open source, tons of programming jobs would open up for companies wanting to customize and enhance software to fit their needs.
Unfortunately, the reality is not that development is a few-to-many business because of the closed-source model. Rather, development is done the way it is because proramming is *hard*. Nitty-gritty, systems development (as opposed to Web developemnt, or writing DB front ends, or using some SDK with the hard stuff taken care of already) takes real talent, and very few have the talent necessary. Furthermore, it is many, many times more cost-effective to buy software off the shelf (be it open- or closed-source) and pay for high administrative costs than it is to custom-design software to fit an organization's exact needs.
My advice to CS majors is to get used to the idea that you probably won't be coding linked lists and creating filesystems for a living. Learn to be a good Unix admin, how to be a DBA, how to troubleshoot buggy applications and OSes. Learn how to assist and teach non-clued end-users. 1% of CS grads are going to be programmers and software engineers. Guess what the other 99% get to do?
dinner: it's what's for beer
Alright, pappy, I think your a little old to be programming. Shit I mean when using words like "hogwash" you gotta be atleast as old as my grandma. I know i'm full of shit but I still have a few more years before i'm made fun of for being old.
My favorite thing about being in the IT field is there's always something new to learn, and always new and interesting things coming out. If you like constantly learning different technologies and ideas, I couldn't think of a better field to be in. And the more you know, the more you are respected...it's a ladder with infinite rungs. It's about as far from as dead end as you can get.
Well...
:-) I can say that is because many of us were laid off due to someone's greed that pushed the company to its brink of death. This could have been avoided if he did not attempt to 'swindle' his way to potential investors.
:-)
I for one will speak out on this subject. Though I do not posses the hours and hours of experience for programming since my experience has been mostly in dealing with systems integration and tryhing to bridge the gap of delivered software vs. expected software. But recently, I have been more involved with development and that there is a special joy that people enjoy that come with development, at least I know that I can say for myself and from the posts that I have read, many others feel the same way: which is that when you're done, you can look back and say 'wow, I did that!' and feel proud that you were able to take a problem and be able to solve it. It is a sense of accomplishment that I know that I enjoy even if it's trying to dig through mountains and mountains of oracle documentation trying to load a very poorly designed database that has nested tables that would even make any LISP programmer die, that at the end of day, when you are finally getting it to work, you can be proud that you were the one who did that. And the best part is that you get to wear jeans and t-shirt... though at my current position, i'm forced to wear khakis.... (I actually had to buy new clothes when I started my new job).
Now on to management.
I can tell you from my last job that management is something that is something to speak for. Yet, at the same time, if taken lightly you can easily make an a*s of yourself. For example, I cam from a dotcom and unlike most companies that was in the area, our management was actually quite well in hind-sight. (I am talking about middle management and not upper management. I'll discuss them later.) All the managers that were in charge of development really knew their stuff. They could have easily put down the books and pulled up their sleeves and got down with vi and coded up some seriously tight code. But they had a more important task to handle, which was to be able to lead a group of developers to do the one thing that is the most important in any development team: COMMUNICATION!!!!!!!
But there wasn't meetings everyday, but from my cubicle mate who was a developer, their usual rate of meetings was maybe once every two or three weeks. But on and off, his manager would come and talk with him about what he's working on, and look at his code and help him out on where he could optimize and perhaps looking at the algorithm differently and just different things. And for the most part, many of our development managers were all developers at one point, but they were not just 'managing' but they were teaching those of us and mentoring us who were fresh out of college and still learning the ropes of the trade. And to them, I feel that they were truly the great ones in our company and provide not just leadership but also gave us something that we could take home. (yeah, i know, it sounds corny but it's true... lol)
Now, as far as upper management is concerned, they were pretty much all crap. At the end of the day, they were only concerned with lining their pockets with money that was made on the back of the developers... hahaha! Bastards...
TFSM: wow, what can I say here. Hmmm.... well I'm glad that I didn't sign the non-disclosure, non-competing confidentiality agreement!!!!! LOL! Two weeks pay is not worth my soul. Take that TFSM!
So... what do u have to learn from if you actually read all this? Not all management is bad. I wish that me and my several now ex-patriates did not have to part our separate ways and that in much restrospect, I do miss the work, but most importantly, I miss the atmosphere, and I miss the poeple the most. It is truly sad that the temptation of money can drive men to do evil and selfish deeds that could be otherwise easily avoided. But we all will grow, and live on and of course life goes on, and I have a new job, and now I am trying to bring those expatriates on as well
The fact that a phrase like "the dark side" is used, however tongue in cheek, indicates just how little some geeks get it.
In the commercial world, software isn't developed in a vacuum. In order to build a successful business you need to understand: who are your customers? what problems do they have? what software should you build to solve those problems?
People pay money for your software because it has value for them: it solves their problems. If enough people pay you enough money you will build a business.
Management and marketing aren't impediments to the "good guys" doing their jobs. They are essential parts of the overall job of building a successful business. The world doesn't owe you a living, no matter how skilled you are. It pays you for doing something that is valuable.
If your company is well run and you disagree with your management its because you aren't seeing the bigger picture. It may be cool to build technology X, but if no-one wants that and everyone wants technology Y, then you are wasting your time and skills working on X.
Of course there are bad companies with bozo managers. But that is a function of particular people, not of the role of the manager or leader.
Sailing over the event horizon
And I thought I wasted two years at Mohawk college taking networking and hardware, and now I code and do sysadmin work. I was laid off at my previous job last year, and luckily was working again 6 weeks later. I only had three interviews though; one had crappy pay; one would have been embarassing (sysadmin for gay porn adult check type site); and the one I'm working now.
I'll have something intelligent to add one of these days...
/*The simple measure here: "as long as you love doing it, you'll keep doing it." */
Hmmm, most of the people I know work for income, not the love of their jobs. But then they're not programmers!
Seriously, it's pretty easy to get locked into a carrer track. Good programming skills take a while to develope. (I'm not talking about noob level "I just see the code" garbage) If you don't have the courage to start from ground 0 (or close to it) it can be pretty difficult to change paths.
I worked for a manager who had been a developer. After about a year, he decided that he hated managing. So, he went out and recruited a replacement for himself, and went back into development. I'm almost certain his salary remained the same.
This is the direction I'm trying to push my career.
After 10 years of programming, I'm getting bored with slinging code. Developing prototypes and solving the hard problems is fun, but 75% of coding is routine and unchallenging.
So my career goal is to become a 'Technology Buddah' (from a Dilbert cartoon), dispensing enlightenment to the junior coders who seek my aid. Having an overview of the technological infrastructure, along with the business requirements (see, learning manager-speak already) I hope to become a bridge between management and developers, helping projects get started on the right track and being available to solve unexpected problems.
No need for a manager, so no worries about pay progression. Now, I just have to convince my boss...
I can't wait 'till I achieve Trinity status, then Morpheus... and then I start wracking up the frequent flyer miles. :)
I'm not to sure if someone can claim dead end job when "programming" has everything from the suggested bit banging to web-site -> database building to video games and graphics packages.
I make it a plan never to stick to one job for more then 4 years. There are so many caveats of programming it's fairly easy to keep jumping to the most interesting one.
There are still many many applications that have not even been thought of by sci-fi writers. All you have to do is just challenge yourself to get there and do them. Seems suddenly when I'm doing something that doesn't exist on earth, dead end job doesn't even qualify as a possibility.
Unless you get to drive the company convertible on a red bull run to restock the mandatory weekend overtime company beach house on the company credit card. I doubt you will be able to find your job able to fulfill everything you desire. So why bother? Think outside the cubical.
Options are out there.. People who are in a dead end job have no desire to educate themselves. I'm not sure how that is the jobs problem.
-nasu
"What do you do with the mad that you feel when you feel so mad you could bite?" - Mister Rogers
I see lots of, "It's not always going to be fun, it's a job.." crap.
;)
If it isn't fun, then, you're in the wrong field. That's something I'll never understand, people who aren't totally happy with their jobs, yet stay at them. *shrug* Oh well, more gray hairs for you.
At any rate, I think the only dead end in sight is for those who leapt into programming/other tech fields because they saw nothing but the slimy green of the dollar bill. Everyone here probably knows one of that type.. They do it for the money.. Not the knowledge, not to make something better, not even because they just like to program. They saw a fat salary listed on one of those stupid handouts they give you yer senior year of high school and said, "Wow! Look at the money!"
They're usually the first to be cut when the shit hits the fan. If they somehow manage to survive that, then they'll leap to something else.
Despite all the FUD being spread about such things as 'easy languages' and integrated development environments that make it so easy, even a multi-colored window could do it.. Programming still, and will always remain, a task that requires people who want to do it for the sake of doing it, not for the sake of money.
The question isn't if programmers will ever (all) become obsolete. The question is how long the industry will be able to get 80 hours a week from them before IT's in general finally form a union?
I saw a great Turing quote somewhere that I can't remember, but it said something to the effect of "Programming can never be boring, because you can always automate the repetitive, tedious parts." And if your attempt at automation proves too easy, you can automate the automation. Isn't this what the essence of computing is?
There will always be new challenges in programming if the programmer chooses to challenge himself.
I wish programmers would grow up and actually act like capitalists. Everybody talks about jobs. Where's the good jobs? Where do they pay the most? Where can I dress like a slob and come in late?
Companies love the fact that they've convinced all of these smart programmers that they need jobs. But they are stealing from you everyday you work for them!
If you want to go to work to learn Java (or something) for a year, fine. But once you've learned the skill, get out!
Talented programmers have got to stop being satisfied with 50-100K and paying 20K in taxes. If you want to live on 50K per year, then you only need to work 5 months a year!
The gov't loves you at work, the companies love you at work. That alone should make you reconsider. It's not about being rich, it's about freedom to work on what you want, and make the money you want.
And please stop working in a cubicle! SourceForge is proof that coordinated development can take place from the home.
Unclog the highways! Save oil!
I see these trends:(1) more offshore work, (2)much more packaged software instead of homegrown application development by businesses,(3)more use of Excel and similar instead of homegrown application development by businesses, (4) perpetual stream of new buzzwords from vendors looking for sales angles in a saturated market (entry into the software market is pretty cheap).
The buzzwords give you a choice -- either (a) invest 25% of your time forever trying to stay up-to-date, or (b) make some decent money applying what you already know and plan to find another profession in a few years. I went option (b), and I'm in a predicament for sure.
The buzzwords are death to me. Much of software is pretty easy, point and click. That's what all the products are, point and click with integrated help. The learning curve can't possibly be more than a week for someone with a grasp of the underlying concepts. (I'm talking development, not system administration or database administration and tuning here, I know those do have a learning curve) If you can manage a project with one project management tool, you can probably do it with most of the others. If you can design a database with one data modeling program, or even with a pencil and paper, you can probably do it with most of the data modeling programs.
But look at the job postings; most of them want 2, 3, or five years experience with 6-20 specific tools (and often specific versions of those tools). That's why 80% lie on their resumes, I suppose -- very few will have the exact combination any of these jobs requires. I guess they figure that the young guys can learn and they will make exceptions for someone young and eager, but old and eager is not a combination that anyone can even imagine to exist. I've had two interviews recently in which I was told that the company was expecting to hire someone younger and I was asked why they should hire an old guy instead of a young guy. This is illegal, but they do it.
Keep your buzzwords up to date and be a manager before you are 30.
In the March issue of Embedded Systems Programming there was a good opinion piece about how hardware engineers are becoming more and more like programmers these days. This is clearly oriented toward digital/logic hardware folks implementing designs in FPGAs and PLDs as opposed to high frequency analog engineers.
Bottom line: the line between "software" engineers and "hardware" engineers is becoming more blurred.
Andy
COMPLETELY OFF-TOPIC, but did you ever listen to the former band of that site's founder (Gibby), The Trouble? They absolutely rule.
Rock over London, Rock on Chicago. Wheaties: Breakfast of Champions.
I never had a computer, once I did when 12 or something it had no manuals, so I donwloaded programs, from table, pressed break and looked at statement in the listing(yes basic!) and that ways learned most of the syntax. I was writing 1000 line programs by the end of few months... My computer fit only 2k programs, so after while I hit dead end, my hobby stopped. No I don't think I had uptitude/tools to hack assembly of unknown CPU, computer books in russia at the time, where I lived were sparse. Until someone loaned me a 286 pc. I remember playing with windows 3.0 on some pc, it was crashing and stuff, but I was impressed with gui idea. There were already some ZX-Spectrum programs my friends had, like paint ones, with gui, but that was different game(no I did not have ZX, though I wish). I was starting to code my own windowing interface on turbo c++. After while pc was taken away, so I had to go to universety, there they had an XT... my god it was slow, and crashy. TC++1.0 was just terrible... well I moved to canada after a break, I had my hands on Mac classic II around the time, it was amazing, it could do things windows. And Think Pascal was great... after while my parents bought be 486. I got doom from one of my friends, and so sleepness night of playing game it was.
Now I code perl,python, java, C++.
What is most negative trend is the industry is dilution of interest. People want to make software, just like they make a car and sell it million times. And they want to get rich, so the whole industry is plagued by control mania. People want to control other people's thoughts so they can make money on it, so those who surrender to the present order, would feel themselves flowing into mediocricity. I would rather work for other industries, if I had ability to, considered computer peripherals, books - software did not cost so much. You always have to get new stuff and it costs muchos, most hardworking professions don't pay all that well.
Programmer job is not dead. There will be thorough cleaning in the industry in next 2-3 years, really good jobs will be surfacing after this while wash of homecleaning soap is washed away - i certainly hope so.
you would be amazed at what some companys call carreers.
Ive known people who were embedded programers then moved up to Senior Administrator.
some companys may want you to stay a programer because your good some may want you as an admin. some just may be to cheap or crapy to do anything else with you. but it comes down to who your workin for and how much and well you like them and they like you.
Instead of as in the lead articale saying computers are going nowhere, it is surely the opposite, computers are going everywhere!
Its one damn thing before another. (Dick Bird 1999)
you mean you can get paid to do program?
holy smokes!
He looked at me and said, "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send your fingerprints off to Washington."
My boss (our VP and I think CTO) is the developer of utmost Deep Magic. But of course, we're a relatively small company.
But to take the other side of the coin up, I know of developers who made more than their managers (as one of my classmates ascended to management, I know several of the lead developers were making significantly more than he was).
There are two or three GOOD reasons why managers make the big bucks. In theory, they are the RESPONSIBLE ones. The buck stops there. Programmers can often excuse problems as being the result of other people's work, their deadlines, etc. But a manager has no such refuge. That responsibility should be commensurately rewarded.[1]
Also note that some highly paid programmers who make more than their management treat their management like inferiors. I've seen this. At the end of the day, some of the geek community only respect salary or other raw displays of power and authority. Sad but true.
Lastly, good managers are worth their weight in gold and do significantly benefit a project. They coordinate people, resources, and customers. They manage customer expectations, attend to the wellbeing of their managed, and ensure that all required resources are forseen and in place when required.[1].
So even though the comment about programmers not getting paid more than managers has exceptions, there are some good reasons for things to be as they are.
[1] - I know very damn well that the theory often doesn't match practice. For some reason, many companies keep inept management in place, I suspect because the next management level up is equally inept. I've had precisely three fair to okay managers, 1 really great manager, and several of the nightmarishly inept variety. But why companies keep incompetent managers in positions of power despite all the damage this causes is an utterly separate issue from the reasons why managers are paid more than programmers. Valid, but different.
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
One of the big problems I've seen at places where I work is that they don't have any kind of advancement roadmap for programmers. Some places will have "senior" programming positions, but that's about as far as they go. They usually lump all IT positions into two categories, System Administration or Programming. There usually aren't positions such as "Senior Software Architect" or "Senior Database Administrator".
All the advancements lead to management. As if that's the natural end position for an employee, to end up running the place. Maybe if more companies spent some time defining out the advancement pathways for their employees, programming wouldn't seem like such a dead end job.
"For a successful technology, honesty must take precedence over public relations for nature cannot be fooled." -Feynman
I'm not tired of programming, but I'm tired of the kind of programming I'm doing. I'm tired of creating things that don't mean anything to me. I'm tired of working for soulless entities that look at you as a good instead of a person. I'm tired of seeing what I write being used to advance a 'thing' instead of people.
I consider myself a good programmer, though I know I still have a lot to learn. But things are just loosing their meaning. The money, while nice to have, doesn't justify keeping on.
I'd really like to work on a place where I'm using my skills for a good cause. Any suggestions?
Umm, Cliff, when you have a comment almost as long as the submitted quote, why not use the handy dandy comment system to air your view, instead of slapping it all over the front page? Y'know, encourage a discussion, participate on an equal basis? Rather than structuring the discourse on your own terms?
Boy, do I sound like a HGSBlackout-er right now.
Back in Junior High (1982-1985), I was "into" computers. I thought it would be fun to have a job working with them.
I thought to myself:
So I went to college and got a degree in Mechanical Engineering. After working for a couple years as an engineer and not doing very well, I decided to make the move into computers and got a job as a programmer. It is nice now to be ahead on my projects instead of always behind and its a bonus to be able to make things happen which "can't be done."The keys are passion for what you do and fitting your career to your strengths and interests. I was too much of a perfectionist to crank out engineering drawings at an acceptable rate.
I'm afraid I have to wonder about how we're defining a "programmer." Are we saying that a "programmer" is one who programs between 1 and n languages or a computer scientist? Given the first definition, one might call a programming a "dead end." After all, it's simply hacking away at the same skill set day after day, much like a mechanic or a plumber. However, computer scientists are programmers only in the sense that programming is one of the means by which they convey ideas and construct tools. As was mentioned in an earlier comment, the applications of computation are increasing by the day (e.g. computational biology). Thus, it seems to me, that if we set the definition, the "dead-ended-ness" of the career will become obvious. The analogy then, I suppose is, mechanics work with cars, scientists and engineers create cars. If you consider either one a "dead end," fine, but there's no good answer to a query with poorly defined parameters.
PHP programmers around you may have enough work to keep them employed, but skilled C programmers in their 40s or skilled COBOL programmers in their 60s may find such jobs pretty uninspiring.
If your career is expected to top out before you get your first gray hair, that's a dead end career, whether you can stay employed forever or not.
On the other hand, that pretty much describes the situation for star professional athletes, too, so perhaps "dead end career" is a bit too harsh. It's more like a "time-limited career", that implies the need for more than one career over the course of a lifetime. And that's not so bad....
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
All jobs are dead-end jobs because no matter what you to today, if you keep doing that way, it will be dead sooner than your retirement age.
Change or die.
At the age of 33 I am considered an Old programmer. I have no desire for management. I am going back to become a high school math and CS teacher. I still will have my contracting job on the side. Pure coding is fun if you are on the right job, but to a large extent, I have been there done that.
I think the biggest problem here is that people are dedicating the early part of their lives to computers, and that is causing the "burn out." If you spend your youth sitting in a dark office drinking Mt. Dew and playing Quake without enjoying other things in life, you will see the "computer" as a reason that you are burnt out. I'm a developer. I graduated CS. I enjoy it. I like the coding. I like the projects. I even like the managers. BUT, I keep a very distinct line between my "life" and my "job." I'm married, I enjoy the outdoors, and when I leave work for the day (which is sometimes 6 hrs, sometimes 12 hrs) I leave work there. Sure I mess with the computer at home, but I also seperate my "hobby" (which I would be doing regardless what my job is) and my job.
Basically it is a matter of work-life balance (to use the buzzword.) If you allow yourself to be 1 dimensional, then you will get sick of it.
It should be noted that Embedded programmer, just like Electrical Engineers, get the shaft big time. Experienced web programmers (non-Microsoft), and many IT positions (like Oracle DBA's) can grab six figure salaries. It's a shame really because I have a great deal of respect for the low level guys, who really have to have a much bigger grasp of logic than those of us working on the higher levels. There are of course exceptions, senior engineers, and managing engineers, but most shops that deal with embedded and EEs have one or two top dogs to a dozen or so poorly (relatively speaking) peons.
I don't find out of country work a problem though. They just don't perform as well as the lazy American counter parts. The money you save in labor costs disappears as when you have a much longer bug/enhancement cycle. Most of which is caused by a culture/language gap.
Outsource to India can work well if you have a product that you have specific bug fixes that need to be done. But new products that require a really good analyst to have face side with the business and really hammer out details. Business like working face to face with someone who knows the lingo and can instill confidence. And they are willing to pay two to three times as much for that fuzzy feeling.
The real question should be "Is programming a dead-end in the U.S.?" The Answer is Yes.
Corporate america is looking to outsource programming to India. Just like manufacturing left the US back in the 80's and early 90's expect programming to follow soon. Why? because labor in the US is expensive. Each year the Feds and States are raising taxes for businesses for labor. Plus India can provide businesses nearly thje same quality at a half or a third of the cost of development in the U.S. Its plain economics. Why would any business want to pay 70K+ a year for a programmer that they could outsource for $25K or less?
Believe it or not, the White house has been pressuring CIOs from some of the largest companies to NOT outsource, on the grounds of national security. Unfortunately, its not working.
If your in school now, preparing to be a programmer, I would highly recommend you look at other opportunities.
So Linus Torvalds was walking a dead end path when he started programming Linux???
I programmed for 16 years and had the time of my life. I enjoyed the challenge of complex problem solving, I became an expert in Assembler, C, C++ and Java/J2EE and in in OO modeling. I held the title of architect for the last few years I programmed. I felt as if I had the ultimate career.
Last year I spent mostly unemployed unable barely get a response to my resume. I recently landed a job as a UNIX SYstems administrator which I believe is not a dead end career. Otherwise I would be working retail at minimum wage.
Here's why Programming is a dead end career.
Note: programming itself is fullfilling but a career is needed to make a living.
1. Systems integration is eclipsing software development, the classic build vs buy. Why reinvent the wheel? In the old days everything was proprietary and software development was needed to build systems. Today more open systems allow for components to be acquired and assembled with little or no software development needed. As this trend continues and proprietary systems die off even less software development will be needed.
UNIX was the first of the open systems trend and the domination open source is the end game.
2. Rates on the East coast have fallen into the $20's range and will continue to fall because of lack of demand and greater supply. Just ask anyone collecting programmers resumes what the supply is at this time and this will continue to accelerate in the future. Econ 101.
3. India is now charging $6 an hour for contract work ( see the wired link from the original story), and China is now competing for $3 an hour. ( The actual programmers make about $1.50 an hour ). This is about $3000/yr, try to live on that amount. These people would be glad to work for minimum wage in your country since it would be 4x their salary.
4. Programming is a young persons job because young people are more easily exploited because of lack of business experience, ( worthless stock options, long hours ). After a while in the business you can recognize a "sweat shop" in the interview process. I believe this is the core problem with age discrimination.
5. Most hiring managers believe you can will not take a pay cut no matter how desperate you are. All those great raises that programmers deserve will eventually price them of the market.
6. The mid 90's philosopy of empowering the programmers to become more productive has given way to programmer as a body that can be easily replaced and exploited at will. Programmers have gone from sports/rock star status to laborer status. Progamming is seen more and more as dirty work that any self respecting person would not do.
"Why aren't you typing".
What other profession will you find yourself out in the street with no hope of employment because you are over 35? What other profession dumps its most experienced qualified people to save a few dollars? What other profession is targeted by the government to bring down wages by massive immigration? Programming no matter how personnally rewarding is not a career.
I totally agree with the parent post here. There are tons of programming jobs around. Heck it took my company about a year to fill a position doing db/web/vb/c/etc... stuff. I'll admit, the work is not flashy or glamorous, but it pays well and is stable.
It just irks me to see people complaining that they can't find a job programming. Yes, it is hard to find a paying job hacking the linux kernel all day. Finding a job writing business apps is not very challenging though.
/rant
I know this is slashdot and everything MS is evil, but if you know VB, MSSQL server, and Crystal reports you can get a job in just about any industry.
/rant off
, who really have to have a much bigger grasp of logic than those of us working on the higher levels
I have to disagree with you there: I've been on both sides, and the logic is even more complex at higher levels. Sure, it's easy for a low-level guy/gal to focus on a specific part of a project, grasp it completely and make it work, but the higher up you go, the more uncertainty you have to deal with. I would say the uncertainty increases 2x every level you go. Managing that ambiguity at the project level is ferociously complicated. Why do you think project managers never smile and carry rolls of Tums (TM) with their laptops and planners?
I wouldn't say the 'low-level' workers have a monopoly on logic or a much 'bigger grasp'. if anything, they have a very big grasp on a smaller part of the picture. which is NOT an insult to their competence.
https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
Hell yes....but it doesn't suck. The pay is pretty good and you always have something to do. Nobody really forces a dress code on you and you can set your own hours...within reason.
As long as you're doing your job well nobody screws with you and you get a certain amount of respect. The company will always need leadership, so as long as you don't screw anything up you will have a job.
And the same things go for programming. This was a silly question.
Maybe it's only a dead-end job in the corporate structure "you're" currently in. But this field seems like a pretty good one to start your own project in. There's many opportunities to do so. For instance, lot's of law offices need custom programs for their business' and end up going to some jack-ass to throw together something in MS Access. (Not meant to be flame-bate, I'm sure it's a good program and all, but the code i've seen is pretty damn shoddy.) Lawyers have a ton of money, you could get some of it and be your own boss. :)
As well as the gaming industry.. These days it'd be much more difficult to put out your own game (i.e. takes a team of 50 people 3 years to make) but not all popular, money making games are large-scale. If you and a few friends put together something small but entertaining that gains some mild popularity, you'd make a few bucks, but more importantly, it'd be either good on a resume to get into a bigger gaming company, or enticing to investers if you have the know-how to start your own company.
Ansi's and stupid tricks!
Hell, I love to hack...when I get home. My job has become more a place where they issue paychecks rather than the place where I code. Why?
Because of everything else unrelated to coding that I have to fend off: meetings, fickle graphic designers, shrinkwrap software that doesn't work and I end up "supporting," a boss that buys servers by the bushel because we have to use or lose our budget.
In short, I already am a manager.
Besides, at age 29, I cannot see myself with a family (I want one) if I'm spending 8-12 hours in front of a computer by day and a couple more by night to hone my skills. I don't instant message, own or carry a cell phone or pager, or pick up a phone without screening it via answering machine, and I still don't have a life to speak of. I've forgotten what a tit feels like!
I love programming. But it is a solitary discipline in its purest form. Unfortunately, there's too many people throwing their hats into the design process. And then you start coding from specs, and the specs change.
So lately, I'm neither programmer or social butterfly. I could code righteously, but only if there's nothing to code. It's a Catch-22. Yossarian lives!
There is a difference between saying "Computers are going nowhere" and saying "Computers aren't going anywhere."
The difference in connotation should be obvious, at least to a native speaker. If you are not a native speaker, then this has been a blunt attempt at American Idiomatic English instruction.
:Most of which is caused by a culture/language gap.
Not really, There are already plenty of India Programmers that have already migrated to the US. These programmers will fill in as a project manager handle these types of issues.
Programming is a dead-end period!
Well, I think it's important to note that artificially high upward mobility is not the norm in every industry, but in fact was at least somewhat common in ours in the past few years. For instance, at 22, I received a software team to manage at GTE (now Verizon) after just over 1 year of service with the company in various high-visibility projects. The good news is that I left the company a few years ago. I say good news because with increased responsibility, especially when it slaps you in the face almost overnight, comes burden. In my case, the personal demands were just too great (super long hours were required, pagers/phone going off all night and weekends, etc.)
I think that when people look at our field, they surely have seen very high profile examples of this upward mobility (CEO's in their early 20's who started hacking in their garage, etc.) So it is natural for outsiders to think that just because programmers do not automatically "ascend" into management, then it must be a dead-end job, given the high profile cases in the news every day. Frankly, I've met many folks who just do not want to "ascend." Personally, I have to admit that I love having the opportunity to direct people, but what I like most about it is running the design side of things. However, many people are not even comfortable in that role. With that said, many programming jobs appear to be "dead-end" because the employees want it that way.
Also, in recent times, many folks entered the computer industry because it paid well. Me? Ever since I was a little kid and started hacking on my TRS-80, I *knew* that this was what I was going to do for a living in the future, regardless of pay. Do I like the fact that I get to do what I love to do, and still own a house, drive a Corvette, and enjoy many other luxuries because it pays well? Of course. But, even if the pay was mediocre, I would still be doing this.
And I'm doing my darndest to build portal to another industry as fast as I can, before I too, reach that unemployable age.
This is a brutal industry, fraught with risk. I don't see how people can feel confident enough to start a family on a programming job.
Good luck on your MBA. I will miss programming, too.
I agree about the environment. I'm recovering from surgery, and nobody knows I'm not in my cubicle. I'm hardly able to move, but I'm back to working full time from a bed. Of course that would be a bad thing if I didn't love my job, but I do. I love having a job where I can leave my sick bed and rejoin the world of the living -- without ever leaving my sick bed.
Even so, what you're saying about atmosphere reflects attitudes that tend to change (don't always, but tend to) as you get older and have a family. You get less interested in yourself (ideally) and more interested in the hopes and dreams of your family members. Your wife gets discouraged about where you're living, for example, and suddenly your jeans and T-shirts don't mean that much to you.
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
B-school types asked Conrail: "What do you do?"
Conrail answered: "We run a train system."
The "correct" answer really was "We provide a service to move goods from one location to another." They doomed themselves by competing with train systems when they were competing with trucks and air freight as well.
What business are you in? Is it "programming", is it "collecting and codifying business rules", I don't know what the answer is but I'm pretty sure the bulk of the business of "conversion of business ideas into source code" is going overseas.
It's one of those "seeing the forest for the trees" problems. My point is that next year you'll have a job, the year after that you will, probably for the next 10 years you will.
But the Indians and Chinese are getting better and better at outsourced work. There's a huge information/cultural/communication gap now but don't think that will stand in the way 20 years from now.
"Programming" as a job is as dead as being a cobbler (that's a shoemaker for the verbally challenged).
On the other hand, there are a lot of idiots in business-land with a lack of analytic skills. Transitivity is where Dracula comes from to most pointy-heads. There are jobs utilizing the same analytic and logical skills -- your business is not "programming", it's "analysis" or "rule-based business structuring."
Change now or become a cobbler.
Links, please! This sounds like fun.
Radiant Panel Association FAQ
I don't have any pics of my current install, but previously, I was using a forced-air natural gas furnace that was both loud and space consuming. I decided to go with a tankless water heater to supply both domestic hot water as well as radiant heating water. Since the new tankless heater is tiny compared to the old furnace AND the old water heater, I have gained a bunch of space. The tankless was not cheap (about $1100 USD) but building costs in my area are not cheap either - about $90/sq ft. So if you look at it in terms of square feet gained, I actually made money. On that note, I even installed a second bathroom where the old furnace was located. So I've upgraded the house from an undesireable single bath. This should pay off when it comes time to sell (or preferebly rent) the house.
Here is the information on the water heater (TK2) that I am getting. As far as other materials, you'll need a bunch of PEX Tubing to provide the actual radiator. The stuff is expected to last 200 years. I buy from Radiant Max as they have the best prices by far.
The bottom line is that I'll have a radiant floor heating system for about half of the price that the contractor wanted to fix my forced air furnace ($2k vs. $4k). Since the hydronic radiant doesn't require any special tools or skills, I can do it myself (unlike the furnace repair, notably the duct work). Not only am I adding space to the house by eliminating the furnace and the water heater, but I am also lowering my energy requirements during the cold season by an estimated 50 percent (I have an unusually high loss through the current forced air duct work but average gains are 30 percent).
As a side note, I'm currently looking into purchasing the empty lot next door for the purpose of building my own house (and renting the one that I live in now). A friend of mine just did this and total cost worked out to about $5 per square foot since he did ALL of the labor himself (with help from myself and other friends/family on the bulky stuff). Of course, the lot cost him an arm/leg but he has about $180k wrapped up in a house that just appraised for $400k. Not bad... There really isn't much to building a house once you tackle the plumbing, electrical and heating/cooling systems. Labor represents the single biggest cost of building a house.
As another side note, if I find that I do posess the skills required to build a house from start to finish, then I think that it would be nice to drop everything and build ONE modest house per year. Profits would be in the $100k range and if you live in the house for two years, then you don't haveto pay taxes on the profits.
Nice!
More VERY useful radiant information here! A good book required for the necessary engineering background is here. Good luck!
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
Hell, I love to hack...when I get home. My job has become more a place where they issue paychecks rather than the place where I code. Why?
Because of everything else unrelated to coding that I have to fend off: meetings, fickle graphic designers, shrinkwrap software that doesn't work and I end up "supporting," a boss that buys servers by the bushel because we have to use or lose our budget.
In short, I already am a manager.
Besides, at age 29, I cannot see myself with a family (I want one) if I'm spending 8-12 hours in front of a computer by day and a couple more by night to hone my skills. I don't instant message, own or carry a cell phone or pager, or pick up a phone without screening it via answering machine, and I still don't have a life to speak of. I've forgotten what a tit feels like!
Actually, I take that back. I'm growing my own.
I love programming. But it is a solitary discipline in its purest form. Unfortunately, there's too many people throwing their hats into the design process. And then you start coding from specs, and the specs change.
So lately, I'm neither programmer or social butterfly. I could code righteously, but only if there's nothing to code. It's a Catch-22. Yossarian lives!
Doctor is a dead-end job. You don't see them complaining. "I got promoted to neuro-surgery! woo-hoo!"
...I took a pay cut to work in higher ed (one of the big 12) for the state, but I still make a comfortable living (but I also consult outside, which I can do since there is NO intellectual property agreement with the state), the job is easy, I program and learn new sh*t all the time, I dont have to be a manager, and the best thing? NO F*CKING DRUG TEST. Well, I guess that would be second best; the best thing would definitely be that as long as I do my job (and this is an easy one) I will never, ever lose my job! Twelve holidays a year, twelve sick days, two weeks of vacation; shit, I've got it made! You guys wanna go out and fight the corporate fight for an extra 20k a year, be my guest, but I'll be sitting pretty with my job, where there is NO stress, and at night I'll go home and f*ck my wife in my $300K house.
I think until we create robots to do all our work so we can sit on our asses all day that their will still be programming work to do. Even then we'll still need to do programming to keep them from going psycho and killing us all.
With Microsoft making programming easier and easier, won't medium to high paid corporate programmers working in the closed source Windows world soon be obsoleted by any high school age kid with a few dollars to buy the current version of Visual Studio who is willing to work for far less money?
There's only one place for the programmers to go, and that would be upwards to management positions.
"To make a mistake is only human; to persist in a mistake is idiotic." Cicero
Not a dead end job at all, but like everything in life you have to change and make use of experience. Specialization is for insects.
I still code for a living, but at 43 I run my own software design/development consultancy. I telecommute and half a dozen long-term clients who always are in need of *something*. They like me because I'm a highly capable technical geek and code monkey - but at the same time a geek who's been around business long enough that I can go in and talk to clients on a non-technical, business-aware level and do the analysis/design in terms that they understand.
I think you only aquire the people skills with age and experience - particularly so for technical people who's natural bent usually isn't towards that kind of thing at all. Indeed a few grey hairs seem to be positively helpful as your average manager doesn't like being in a position where they think they might look stupid to a kid who's young enough to be their children.
So my advice for longevity as a coder is to broaden out - get as much experience of all aspects of business and beyond as you can. Being pure cubical-fodder past the age of 30 isn't viable - but then who'd want to do just that anyway?
OK, I'm mid-forties, been programming for about 30 years (20 professionaly). Ditto for my wife. Together we pull in over $200k. Not too bad, IMHO.
The thing to do is develop your skill in two ways:
1. Find some widely needed, platform independent area which you're really interested in, which won't date quickly, and develop deep expertise in it. For me, it's security and encryption. For my wife, database architecture. This is your main schtick.
2. Constantly learn new platforms on which to apply your main schtick. I've worked on PDP-8, DEC-20, VAX, Apple, Unix (SunOS, Solaris, Linux), Palm, Windows (DOS, Windows 3.11, win9x, NT, win2k) PIC microprocessors and WinCE among others, in FOCAL, FORTRAN, BASIC, Pacal, Modula-2, perl, C, SAIL, C++, and a raftload of assembly languages. After you've demonstrated that you both know your main schtick, and come up to speed on new environments rapidly, jobs aren't hard to find. Try to learn at least one new environment or language each year.
Age discrimination is not a problem if you're widely considered to be in the top 1-2% of your field.
(name withheld)
Natural Language Compilers --> Obsolete Coders
(you'll all become systems integration specialists, AI psychologists or some such...)
A trained monkey can write code (we've seen what a CS degree makes you capable of); it is a dead end job in the long haul. The real money will be in people who can do more than just write code; either have a deep understanding of the problems that they are getting the computers to solve; or experts at particular implementation esoterica.
Most 50 year olds aren't coders because they can do better for themselves. If you have 20 years of experience building software, are you going to sit there and code, or are you going to take that $100K management or systems analysis position that's going begging? Decades of experience will give you an edge, regardless of whether or not you know the latest "in" language.
Coding requires much less experience, and more immediate knowledge of modern techiques. A young person will be more up-to-date, simply because he learns the best tools available, which are also the newest. He will have the latest skills, and is the obvious pick for the lower-level engineering positions, simply because you don't need much experience to code.
Then apparently it's not dead end enough because it seems clear that plenty enough programmers are plenty happy with re-inventing the same stuff over and over.....so much so that the applied technology has no motive to advance far enought to cause auto-coding to come about at a level that the general computer user can do it.
In other words, so long as there is motive not to advance, the field of programming won't.
So being dead end can be determined by how much re-invention continues.
Why, because of all the exploding CD's, of course. =)
Wrong. It is _very_ difficult to find a job doing anything related to computers even now.
Not for lack of jobs, but rather for other silly reasons:
* the language you use in job postings (after applying for several hundred positions using the same language as yours, I assume you won't be interested in obvious qualifications due to an overabundance of applicants)
* the requirement to go through HR hiring-droids who can't even understand the dumbed-down version of what I do, and the associated reliance on resume scanners which eliminate human contact
* impossible prerequisites (10 years of Windows XP experience), and inflexibility in matching skills (I've used many free and commercial database systems, relational and non-relational, SQL and non-SQL, with various APIs, but I don't have experience with the exact version of Oracle you run to pull a few reports out of so no hire)
* and a general lack of _postings_ at all (most jobs are unadvertised but how can we get to know everyone who's hiring when simple information cold-calls get hung up on by rude HR people or receptionists)
I understand that there are lots of folks like you out there looking for employees, assuming your post isn't just another Slashdot troll, but when you hear "We can't find jobs" people are telling the truth. There are so many layers of outright deceptive communication between jobs _available_ and jobs _one can find out about_, it's ridiculous.
You can not claim to be a representative example if you're actually willing to solicit information one-on-one from potential candidates, and to discuss the job with them.
I've been looking for anything from behind-the-counter burger flipper to systems administrator for 15 months now, with a 10+-year background including UNIX systems administration, network design and administration, software prototyping, databases, and several kinds of programming, with great references, and even take interviewing classes to make sure I present myself well. Nobody is interested; anything short of senior admin positions, people consider me _over_qualified, but for senior admin positions people consider me _less qualified than the 50 other people in the queue_.
Even now, with recovery from a nonexistent constructed recession in progress, one needs experience to do even entry-level jobs.
Even in this crappy economy, I just landed a job. Why? No one had the experience needed for what I had to do.
Also, if you're "just a coder" you are screwed. Why? Because code-pounding doesn't cut it anymore. I sell myself on a variety of extra skills - knowledge of statistics, research, and communications. I do architecture and databases. In short, I'm broadened.
Computers are here to stay. You may not make a quarter of a million a year. You WILL be employed. Just keep up your skills and expand your scope, and be ready to do some lead or project management work.
Also, take a look at degrees. I'm seeing more and more call for them.
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
Hey, everybody, I have a longer dick and I get paid more than any of you dumb fuck Slashdorks.
"..."as long as you love doing it, you'll keep doing it." Isn't this true for any career?"
tell that to the guy who works double shifts so he can make ends meet...i'm sure he washes dishes cause he loves "clean stuff."
dude.
1. It depends on the product. Some days, I feel like a code monkey. Or a test monkey. And one of the things that gets me through that "dead-end" feeling is that I feel connected to the program I work for. I work for a defense contractor, and knowing that my code helps, in one way or another, to keep people safe. I don't think I could put up with being a coder if my product was just a bunch of reorganized ones and zeros.
:-)
2. It depends on the company. Some companies actually have technical advancement tracks. When I interviewed for my current job, and when I interviewed at SGI, both companies made a big deal about how they had a technical advancement track. Some people want to stay technical, but they don't want to be junior code monkeys when they're 35. My boss still writes code, but he does a lot of other stuff, a lot more design. In that sense, being a coder isn't a dead end as long as you have the opportunity to advance *and* stay technical.
3. About ageism - I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the defense industry, there's a very real sense that I should put up with 80 hour weeks and low pay because everyone else did it when they were young. In the early 90s, they all had to work *way* to much overtime just to keep their jobs. If you were 35 and had 4 kids and a wife and wanted to be a junior coder, there's no way they'd keep you cause they can't abuse you. So, again, if you work for a company where you can stay technical and move out of the junior coder positions, you don't have to worry. Not that this a good system, but its the way it is and no one consulted me before making the rules
So, I guess that was a really rambling way of saying that it depends on who you work for, and what you're working on. It seems like you have to be on your toes to make sure that you end up somewhere where being technical isn't a dead end.
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, its too dark to read.
The simple measure here: "as long as you love doing it, you'll keep doing it." Isn't this true for any career?
That's a young person's attitude. Reality is, "as long as you're not discriminated against because of your age, you'll keep doing it." I'm a contractor in my 50s, I have top-notch references, and being interviewed is generally equivalent to getting an offer (especially if the employer is competent at interviewing). But I just don't get interviews any more. When my current contract ends, it looks like forced retirement time. And that's not good because on a programmer's income, I haven't saved enough money for a decent retirement.
My advice to a young person considering a career in IT is: Try to think ahead, now, before it's too late. It's interesting work - until the PHBs won't read your resume any more, because they "know" that anyone 10 years older than they are is "too old". (The torrent of really cheap programmers from Bangladesh etc isn't going to help, either.) Do the work you enjoy for a while - but be absolutely sure to get into another career before it's too late. Plan to start the crossover in your twenties.
OK First dirty secret (more to come).....
;) )
....but I really would like the 'Vette back :( .
:(
I'm over 40 (but not by much!)
I've been coding professionally since '86 (non professionally since I was 13 - can you say "hacker" on a PDP-8S
I've coded via contracts for Wells Fargo, Boeing and Intel. I've worked for Borland and Nantucket (remember them ). A year and a half ago my going rate was $65-$70 and hour and I've been pulling in 10K-12K a month for the last two years I've been contracting.
Now here's my second dirty secret:
For the last nine months I haven't been able to get a programming job to save my life! I'm actually on unemployment now - the first time since '92 (!!) and I've now been unemployed for the longest period in my entire life
The contracts I priced out on at $70 an hour are now paying $30-$35 for a senior developer position! and I can't even get those because of the influx of overseas programmers and younger ones who would be willing to do it for $20-25 an hour!
I had a Corvette last year and had to sell it to pay the rent (Yeah I know don't cry for me Argentina ). I had to move out of my nice 2 bedroom apartment in L.A. and into a weekly hotel (Ibid). Well I've been poor before so it's cool
Now here's my third dirty little secret....
I've just said f*ck it last month and decided to get out of the profession. I used to be a paramedic way back when so I signed up at the local community college and in two semesters I'll
be a nursing assistant and EMT and in three years I'll be an RN - I'd like to do Emergency Room work. Maybe I'll go on to get a P.A after that I suppose.
But the point is that it's friggin hard for a 40+ year old coder to get a job in todays market. WHen I heard the same story from people back around 5 or 6 years ago I though "What a bunch of whining lusers!"
Now I are one
The freaking establishment has suceeded via blatent lies about a shortage of programmers and an overabundence of programming work visas to drive the salary levels down to ONE HALF of what they were 18 months ago. It is NO coincidence that the job market crash happenned within ONE YEAR of the new programming visa "reforms".
So I go back to college for a new carreer...it's all good...
One last dirty secret though....
While I'm waiting for the summer semester to begin I've stocked up on Jolt Cola and O'Reilly Books. I'm learning Internet protocols and some linux. Now that I'm not burning up my brain writing useless software for fatcat corps I have a few ideas of my own about some communications software that maybe I can market.
I want my Corvette back Damn it !!
----- In Your Cubicle No One Can Hear You Scream...
Of course I'm just 25 and have no family to support. In a few years I might think different. But right now I'm very happy how it is. Besides, I have to admit that my managers are great guys, nothing "dark" about them. :-)
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
I do not think so. Quite a few people in my family are RNs (Nurses). Quite a few of them are former RNs (Ex-Nurses). All of them joined because they enjoyed the field and liked helping people. They enjoyed for years the many fields and benefits of being a nurse. However, they are slowly starting to burn out. Wether it is my mother who has a broken back thanks to hospital mis-management, or my aunt who is now working a nursing home (again due to hospital mis-management) -- the family trade is hitting burn out FAST. They still love nursing - however the conditions are not right for them to be working on the floor. In my mother's case, she is now physically un-able to do her job or any other job due to her job. (PS - since she is the grin and bare it type, the hospital refuses to pay her anything, even though the XRays are conclusive).
I enjoy the computer work I do. I don't do it for the money (or I would sure as hell not waste my time on the interneche). I enjoy the money, but I do it because its like second nature to me and I love to help others out -- I just can not stand the smell of hospitals... I guess I got the down side of the schwartz. I do see burn out in my future if I continue doing the comp work I do today for my life -- that is why I am picking up a language degree, so my choices will be open. I will probably be doing computer work until the grave unless I get forced to do it 7-6 M-S. If that happens, fuck technology!
The ultimate network admin tool needs HELP!
Programmers tend to think of themselves as knowledge workers and thus in some sort of way indespensible. The late 90's reinforced that view with outrageous compensation and a short term squeeze on supply of workers. That time is over and will not return in our lifetimes.
The truth is our profession more closely resembles many of the blue-collar jobs we saw disappear in this country over the decades. One of the great benefits of being a computer jockey is that you can do it from anywhere (SSH in and your ready to go to work).
In the long run that means that there are millions of people from other countries which will do your same job for a lot less money. That's a fact of globalization. With your congressmans's support (H1B program) they'll even come over here to do it for less. The point is that if you work for someone else and they pay you in $$$'s you are vulnerable to be undercut no matter what you do or how clever you think you are.
I'm actually not anti-Globalization, I think it makes the world better, but more importantly it's impossible to stop.
but wont touch database programming anymore...
seriously... a company would have to pay me obscene amounts of money to get me to DB code again.
more power to ya... i couldnt deal with the monotony of that profession, and prefer systems engineering much more than DB programming.
... hi bingo
Well, it is in this case, anyway.
In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.
..*I'll* go fuck your wife in your $300K house.
Of coure I plan in becoming a systems architect down the road, but the difference between coding and making the design of an application is that a design is just "pretty pictures" and "pretty definitions". They are needed, but once you get into the nitty-gritty detail, you have to get pretty creative to put out sound, clean and efficient code. Don't diss the programming job as something inferior: I have often more esteem for the programmer that finds a way to do "the impossible" than for the Software Engineer that thought of something impossible and didn't think enough about the practical feasabilty.
Yes, programmers and engineers are different animals, but more on a conceptual level than anything else.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
Yeah. Maybe his writing emacs and gcc does though? Keep trolling, troll.
Actually it's pretty hard no matter the age.
I prefer to be a jack of all trades - I do networking, db stuff, and some programming / scripting. Not a supreme guru in any of these, but managers know I can work in many areas. Plus add some project management and simmer to a low boil. ;)
Not necessarily. If all of a sudden protramming wasn't paying out, I'd have to leave and downgrade programming to a hobby. Why? Because my family and their happiness is worth more to me than whether or not I like my job.
Programming is the perfect job for me... I love doing it, and I'm good at it. BUT, some things are more important. I will go to the dark side if I have to.
My sig sucks.
..theres a way, and while there are going to be computers they'll be programmers... there are hundreds of us out there... its just gettin the training and the money (i have no experience in the field but it sounds damn'ed hard - im guessin embedded programming = assembly/machine code?) which is an important factor in what sounds like the toughest programming sector, people may love programming but how many want to spend weeks writing in the most cryptic programming language for cheap!
{TheT3chfreak}
In my country, programmers are the coal-miners of the XXIst century. Hard, dirty work and very little to show for it. The cretinous, pig-headed management without a clue about tech issues, summons an application and thinks that all tech-heads are really all easily and cheaply replaceable , like workers in a factory. Of course, that doesn't work, so the project hobbles along until it stalls and crashes loudly to the embarrassment of the pathetic management who refuses to acknoledge its responsability in the failure. All that because the lead programmer (for example) dared to ask for a raise that would have him paid as much as a director. Answer from management : "No, we'd have to make you director of something to give you that!" End of day : lead programmer leaves project. Six months later, company collapses because said lead programmer/engineer was the only one to know how things worked for real... You americans don't know how good you've got it !
What's a bit peculiar about this piece is that it's written by Jack Gannsle, who has worked as an embedded programmer since the 4004 first hit the open market, 30 or 31 years. He must be about 50, but I haven't seen anything in his columns that indicate he himself is quitting, and he's certainly not burning out. Or for another example, I'm 48, and I'm going to keep right on working as an engineer until they carry me out of here.
However, Gannsle does mix coding with managing a consulting business, teaching, and writing that column. Working for yourself avoids the problem of salary ceilings (not many managers are smart enough to pay their best workers more than their own salaries), and of nitwits that won't hire anyone over 40. Of course, self-employment is only for those that can handle a little sales and management also. For myself, I tried management when I was a sergeant, and you can't pay me enough to try it again -- and I'm too honest for sales, unless business schools wise up and start teaching the future managers to identify and avoid bullshitters...
The other thing is to vary the job a little. If you basically write the same program over and over, you should get very good at it, but either you'll go nuts from boredom, or your brain will ossify and you won't be able to handle it when the job changes. There are lots of ways to do this -- just make sure to pick at least one and follow through with it.
Perhaps it's the EE's I've run into. They seem like a pretty bright lot that have to take just as much school, but start out in the high 20's to low 30's instead of the 40's that many CS people snagged. In fact one company I worked on the college recruiting team (technical interviews), we paid 52K right out of school.
Well, to be honest, I've only met a couple project managers out there who could actually manage a project. Those are the types who document, centralize, and instead of getting in the way of the programmer, act as a shield from various business interests.
My problem is the vast number of PMs I've run into who are BA MIS people who dropped out of BS CS program in college because they couldn't cut it. The idea that the people who couldn't cut it in school doing what I do are now telling me how to do my job, and how long my job should take. Anyone else see the irony?
It still going to move overseas, There are programmers in India that are over 35. There are a lot of educated people in India who are quite capable of doing your job. Software is probably the easist profession to outsource overseas. The only resources required is a computer, electricity and a skilled programmer.
I hope your right, but its very unlikely that will be.
Is Sid Meier. Game designer with total creativity control, lead programmmer and chief of everything technical, and knows how to handle the media extremelly well.
Plus his games are damn cool.
That said, programming is not a dead end job. There no "open end" jobs too, if you have the skills and the economy is doing fine. Do it right, in the right enviroment, and you shall grow.
Buy a Nintendo DS Lite
You are on crack.
.NET now, paying 20$/hr to boot, which isn't even close to what it costs to live in most cities. Most job listing arent even real, just resume bait.
Have you even looked at the job listing lately? Everything is Java and
All my 10yr+ C hardcore geek friends are out of work. The ones over 30 have preaty much given up on finding geek jobs entirely. The lucky ones that can afford it (pre-kids etc) have retured to college to study non-computer related things so they can find work.
The ones that have found jobs have done so by stripping off all but the last 2-3 years of work experience and playing dumb, like other posters have reported.
If you can't find someone it's because you have some insane requirements, or you're in a place noone wants to live.
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
you'd have wished he'd burnt out a lot sooner!
Hell... tried to get a job in Silicon Valley recently??????
In my experience technology managers are the people who can spew the most techno-babble, not those who understand the needs of business. They are hired by those who, however competent in their positions, do not understand the benefits and liabilities of computer systems.
I can't count the number of times I've been in a meeting listening to an IT manager talking nonsense to some other manager who is attentively listening and nodding. It makes me want to grab the guy and scream "NO! A company with 30 employees does not have to spend $30,000 on VPN software so that the only mobile laptop user (the IT manager) can connect to the network!!! NO! We don't need to buy a 5000 user copy of netware!!! NO!!! We don't need to buy a digital video camera and place it on the Great Shelf Of Depreciation. We don't need gigabit ethernet, we don't need monitors that cost and weigh more than a small car, we don't need ANOTHER $20,000 laser printer to set by the one we don't use now..."
In my experience it's the programmers who think about what's good for the company, IT managers generally think about what will make them look good. It's usually the programmers who ask "do you realize how much this will cost?" and "what possible benefits for the company will this have?" The answers are usually to the effect of "You have to spend money to make money" and "it'll let the users set their Windows background images from a central database, thereby saving time and money!"
I have run into a few good IT managers in my time, but they are very few and very far in between.
Aaargh! I feel your pain.
:) ... you should have bought a house rather than a Vette. At least then you might be able to sell it and get some equity back. But can I understand the Vette.
... hmmmm. Ah well, there is always teaching right? LOL
You probably don't want to hear this but
If I lived in LA making what I am making now, I damn sure would buy a house right quick. Here in the Bay Area what I make is close to chicken feed.
Maybe I shouldn't have switched careers INTO software, esp at my age
My two baht worth.
I live here in SoCal and worked for a company that made equipment for commercial aircraft. The commercial airline industry has been hit hard since last fall for obvious reasons. Up until the time I was laid off the company informed us that they were going to bring a company from India to help with development ( both hardware and software ). The management, with a straight face I might add, informed the staff they were bringing in the company from India to help finish out existing contracts so that "we" could start working on the new product(s). During the meeting a "resource" ( that is what they called their personnel ) made a "sign" then the irate management type actually had the balls to actually accused us of jeopardizing his company and his job. In addition, if we didn't want to follow their migration path that we should find other work. What a great example of double standards. We should worry about their jobs and bonuses while not complaining they are bringing in outsourcing to train and replace our positions.
So once the events of last fall occurred rumors started running around like mad men that layoffs were imminent. So as rumors were flowing like monthly "aunt flow" they were bringing in the company from India to train and learn our systems. Once the layoff package came down, which I was part of, more and more personnel were brought in. I have kept in contact with my colleagues and have found out that most of the projects they were working on were taking away from them and assigned to the India company. In addition, they are not only working on existing products/projects they are now starting to play key rolls in the development of new products/projects. I really do feel sorry for my colleagues, but I really do hope they new direction brings down the company.
As a side note, the management was complaining that the bids being submitted from India was too high and were close to the bids that would have been submitted internally.
So far in my venture to find another job most of the position that I have found so far deal with Embedded work and not so much application development. I am not sure that embedded developers will fall off the radar screen. Right now the DOD is picking up more than the other markets, at least from what I have seen.
I have had numerous discussions with my friends about the American engineering person. With the apparently massive shift to offshore development, especially with larger corporation, we have concluded that the American engineering with become another class of the American Auto worker. Sure, there still are American auto workers, but they don't command the presence they once did. The glory days have past.
Any job is a dead end, so long the worker does not control the means of production, and the surplus of her labor is taken away from her by those who do. There is plenty of real work to do -- but not very many jobs that will support you doing it.
Ok, first of all, I am over forty.
Secondly, I worked a LOT of different types of jobs before breaking into the computer industry. Mostly these were factory/unskilled worker type jobs. I also spent 10 years a a machinist (not much different than the factory work, except I was then considered "skilled"). All I have to say is, if you think your job is a dead end job, you should do some of those types of jobs for a while. You won't make half as much money, much of the time you will be risking serious injury all day long, working conditions are generally filthy...
Being burned out in that cubicle working on the same code over and over for what you consider to be not enough money will seem like a dream job in no time!
I've been programming since before they invented the Apple I (one), and, at age 40, I'm still in love with "moving bits".
What burns out most programmers isn't the act of writing programs, but the stupidity of management and the lack of respect from those who profit by our work. Like miners, we're used and abused because bosses know they can always find someone else, somewhere.
I don't begrudge someone in New Delhi or Russia who needs a job; they've got families to feed, just like we do.
But I get angry at American employers who start refering to people as "resources" and talking about salaries being "over market", turning workers into accounting chits. It surprises me how bean counters will spend huge sums on opening uselss branch offices or on golf games, while nit-picking a few thousand here and there on people's salaries.
I'm branching out in my "old age", but I'm not likely to stop programming, ever. It may just be bit shovelling -- but then again, genetic engineering only has four letter in its alphabet. ;)
I do not believe the question raised was about programming in general. It was more focused on firmware, which is a real rough one from what I see. I'm still in school, but I already have developed a perception about firmware. As a computer engineer, I think it's too much like software. There's not enough hardware in it to keep me interested. On the other hand, the software engineers think it's too much hardware for their tastes.
So it's stuck in the middle, and it's not even considered that challenging. So it doesn't pay that much. Some people LOVE to do it. Good for them. However, I get the impression they're becoming a minority ("Hooray, Visual C at a system level"). So yes, I believe firmware programming is a dead-end job for an engineer. That is, a person that spent a good deal of time learning how to design things, and solve problems. They surrendered their lives to technology, and firmware is kind of an anticlimax given that.
All the other programming lives on, as the software engineers love that stuff. Hardware moves on, as the computer engineers love it. But put the two together and you get a big ball of bleh -- firmware.
No I'm not trolling.
1. Learn to program. And I am not just talking about learning a programing language. I mean learn computer science. As each new "hot tech of the week comes along" you'll be able to absorb it cause there all built on the same principals.
2. Learn a vertical. Don't just be an expert Java/C++/whatever coder. Be the guy who knows more about the industry you want to work in than anybody else. Whether it's medical, financial, entertainment, education. Know more that those you code for and you'll set your own salary.
My dad is a 50+ Cobol/mainframe programmer. Can't find a job in the city where he lives to save his life. So, he's taking a year-long "upgrade" crash course on modern languages/techniques. Hopefully it will work out for him...
I'd hope you keep your scratching away from that ass.
:)
Man.... someone who brags about their turds in public calling someone else's brags pathetic?
I personally would rather be proud of my elegant code than my firm stool, but I guess I'm just a slashdork
In my VLSI class, it is often pointed out the realy good chip designers, generaly do one full custom asic, and then retire
This is exactly my deal. Once I know how the system needs to be built then the fun part is over.
>>It seems like those who aspire to be managers either are told, or feel the need, to "clean up their act" and hang out with other managers, dress up a bit, and shmooze.
I work for a VERY cool Technology company and I can tell you that I want to be team lead, that I want to go towards managment.
Why? Because I like the responsiblity, it just freaks me out when I have to do something that absolutly makes no sense. I did team lead before and I enjoy working with people.
No, it's not about wearing a suit (heck, as far as I can see no one here is wearing a suite).
M.
If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
First of all, in private industry, programming is a terrible job. You're forced to sign noncompetes and nondisclosures that lay claim to everything you invent, both at home and at work, thus ensuring that your days of hacking around on a saturday afternoon are over; you have to work ridiculously long hours, often as many as 80 a week, thus ensuring that you have no social life whatsoever and can't maintain any meaningful relationships outside of work; You're constantly badgered by idiot suits and marketing droids who hand you moronic "passion speeches" which patronize you and lie brazenly about where your priorities should lie; you're offered stock options that ultimately become worthless while salesmen and marketing droids make more than you while doing less; and ultimately, you're farmed out to pasture at 35 to be replaced by an inexpensive H1-B so some corporate fat-cat can make ten cents per share on his newly-acquired stock and buy another boat.
Compare this with public service jobs (which, by the way are almost always UNION jobs) in programming (humor me, I know the pay is low but you don't know the whole story yet).
First of all, you get hired at a lower rate (in the 40-50k range), but you get training, and promotions are strictly from within, so you don't have to compete with outsiders for the good positions that come up later on (I'll be making 60K in a year or two, and in four or five years I could be making between 70 and 80K, IF I do well on the promotion exams). Then, you get full medical, dental, vision, mental health, and a number of other insurance benefits. You work a nine-to-five job, and (gasp!) actually get OVERTIME PAY when you stay longer. Your likelihood of a layoff is nil (at most, you might get offered an early retirement package at 55). And, best of all, the people are nice, the office environment is sedate and friendly, and THERE ARE NO NONCOMPETE, NONDISCLOSURE, OR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY AGREEMENTS TO SIGN. That's right, none. Which means INTELLECTUAL FREEDOM. And, if you don't want to retire, you can work until they find you dead at your desk -- how many private programming jobs will last until you're seventy?
For the life of me, I don't understand why anyone would want to work for a private company. They make you sign away all of your creative talents! Why would you want to put up with their bullshit? Fuck 'em. I'd rather work as a plumber and program on the side, but luckily I discovered public service and can have my cake and eat it too.
FYI, Federal is best, state is almost as good, county is a little weaker but still not bad. I've worked in two out of three, and a couple of dot-coms, so I do have some basis for this comparison. Just don't work at the town level. The unions generally aren't national, so your protection is weak at best.
P
In my first job, I was a Database Engineer. In my second, I was a Programmer, now I'm a Developement Consultant. In all three jobs, I've done almost exactly the same work, namely Database and GUI stuff - typical System development stuff. The only difference has been the way I'm treated by my company. In the first job, I was an underpaid, anonymous cog in a very large machine. In the second job, I was a larger cog in a smaller machine - but still lacked autonomy - the only way to get ahead was to become a Team Leader, then a "Consultant". That was (and still is the Path To Glory). In my current job, I'm expected to blaze my own trail, I'm treated as a valuable resource an am recognised as an asset. I know what I'm worth to the company, I know how much they sell my skills for. Consequently, I have the freedom to choose my own direction. I can become a Management Consultant, a Technical Consultant a Quality Manager, a Project Manager or whatever. If I wish to write code for the rest of my life, I can. If I decide not to, that's cool to - big software projects aren't staffed solely by code monkeys. My point is this: Programming is a dead end job. Project based software/system development isn't.
If you define dead-end in monetary terms, then you're right. There probably are easier ways of earning more. But you posted to /., so dead-end has more to do with geek job satisfaction, right?
The short answer:
Programming's only a dead-end job if you allow it to be a dead-end job.
The long answer:
I'm pushing mid-40's and there still seems to be plenty of 'real programming' work around, provided you've kept your skills up to date. In the job world, for better or worse, it's survival of the fittest and age does count against you. Experience however, counts for you. In the short-to-medium term, by chosing the right projects, you get the right exprience, which guarantees that you be selected for the next project, and so on. You have to manage your own career. Don't let some manager or company do it for you. They won't have your best interests at heart. Start by deciding where you want to be in, say five or ten years, and make decisions today to move yourself in the right direction. Most important.. start doing this now.
In the longer term, I don't think age will be a big factor when changing programming jobs or trying to remain employed. If you're in the tail end of the baby boom then you have demographics working in your favor. In the coming decades there will be fewer young people entering the work force and I have read predicitions that the retirement age will slowly increase and that there will be increasing numbers of semi-retired working part time in all sorts of fields, including programming and other knowledge worker positions. Given that computers are becoming ever more prevalent, I don't think that age will matter greatly in the future when hiring programmers.
As to programming being a dead-end job. Every job is dead-end, if you hate it and are burned out. But that's your choice (really!). If you're in the wrong job, in the long term, you only have yourself to blame. If you don't like programming, then you shouldn't work as a programmer, or at least you shouldn't have high expectations for job satisfaction. If you 'have to' program for the money, then reread the first paragraph of this post again, and then decide how much money you need until you can quit and do whatever it is that you really enjoy (or make some other compromise that minimizes your time programming compared to time spent doing other things that you enjoy).
You also have to follow technological, employment and other trends. It may bore and disintrest you, but if you don't, you'll end up as evolutionary road kill with only yourself to blame. Mind you, I don't necessarily consider this aspect of our world to be a 'feature', I'd rather be hacking code. It's just the way the world is.
Yes, lower paying, 'factory coding' jobs are going offshore. Yes, fewer Y2K application rewrites will be undertaken for the next 998 years. And yes, you can probably predict many of the other important trends that will affect your employment, all by yourself. The critical part is that you do something about it. E.g. acquire skills in areas that are growing (or alternatively look for niches where your skills are superior). There are cool geek challenges everywhere, if you keep your eyes open. If you have more than half a brain and show more than usual interest, you'll be given the chance.
As the dude said:
"Computers are going nowhere folks, and as long as they are around, programmers will be necessary. "
Duh. So stop worrying and get a life.. as a geek programmer in a job that you enjoy.
Alan Hodgkinson.
A colleague commented the other day that he thinks the Basic family of languages (VB, VBScript, VBA, ASP, etc.) is winning the syntax war versus the C/C++/Java/JavaScript/Tcl camp (before you flame....I know JavaScript isn't Java, but it has that C-style syntax).
I have to admit that I think Basic fundamentally has a better approach. Its english sentence like qualities sure make it easier to read. Obviously if you're a Java guru and have never touched VB then the C style syntax will seem like the 'right' way, but if you're familiar with both which is your preference?
For intCounter = 0 To intMax...Next
seems a lot cleaner than
for (var i=0; i=k; i++){...}
All the C derived stuff just seems to me like a holdover from the 70's when you might have had to program like that, but god why would anyone want to?
dude - what cities can you not live on for 40,000 a year? christ, you can do NYC with that amount of money.
yeh yeh, you wont have a 5th ave. apartment, but you make it sound bad to be making that amount of money.
... hi bingo
BTW, I had a friend that worked where you did (Pixstream/Cisco). He was only there 2 months when they pulled the plug and he got 6 MONTHS severance! I'm guessing you got more than that - it must be nice. The small company that I worked for 5 years (also in video) shut down 2 months ago and we got NO severance (not even the paltry government legislated minimum yet, but that's another story).
Oh, and I'm a Waterloo EE grad (about 10 years older than you, I'm guessing); we had only about 3% women in those days. Good thing that there was Arts, Kineseology and Wifred Laurier Universty!
I work for Sun .. My title is Staff Engineer, and it's ranking is equivalent to the Managers. In fact, instead of reporting to a bottom level Manager, I report to a second level manager.
.. at Java One, the Technical Keynote is given by Graehm Hamilton and Tim Lindholm. They are on the technical track, and quite high on it as well. So they look at the broad picture, and how things fit together, selecting technical strategies, etc. Hopefully we avoid Dilbert-itis in choosing what we do.
... well, that's not the best fit, is it? Obviously manager roles are more about tracking budgets, finances, and the personal level interactions with staff, soothing egos, and so forth. That can be a full time job on its own, and whatever technical skill a manager has at the beginning would quickly be lost as they grow pointy hair, quickly making them useless for technical decisions.
This is The Technical Track. It is a track of promotion within Sun that mirrors the Manager Track, but is purely promotion based on technical skill. As you go up higher in the Technical Trak ranks you're expected to take on larger projects, from the technical side, than you would as a peon techie. Instead of being given "modules" to design and implement, you look at whole systems, designing the broad scope. Other people fill in the details and make it work.
For example
Having technical decisions made by managers, when the primary work of managers is not technical work but people/manager work
Just my observation from having worked in various companies, most lacking a Technical Track, and now occupying a spot in the Technical Track, and loving being above the bottom rung and not having to take on all the managerial stuff.
- David
Does it get the job done? Does it not crash?
Sounds like good code to me.
Code is a set of instructions you want a machine to execute. Your goal is to get the output you want from the machine. 90% of what a lot of people would think is 'elegant' or 'highly optimized' code is, in my opinion and in a business sense, crap for its actual intended purpose because it's harder for someone else to decipher and maintain or modify. If I can write a function clearly, or write it in this really clever way where it calls itself recursively and is hard to read - what should I do? Maybe if i'm programming for myself or on an open source project doing it 'elegantly' would be an option. But if I'm writing code that belongs to my company? I should write it so that it's easily maintainable by others who have never seen it before. I have had to slog thru some of the most PAIN IN THE ASS 'highly optimized' and completely undocumented code in my time. And every time I figure out what the code is doing it just pisses me off that the person who wrote it couldn't have just done it the simple way that would maybe take 8 more lines of code. So it's not elegant? Who cares? It's not going to materially slow down the machine, whereas I end up wasting a TON of time re-doing it later.
He also highly recommends you purchase the book through the link he's provided, so he gets some nice referrer $$.
ARE YOU HIGH?
No offense, man, but I used to work in NYC. FORGET about surviving there on under 60K a year, and that's if you're living out in the boroughs. In Manhattan, a studio (a STUDIO) goes for over 2K/month plus utilities. That doesn't even count expenses. Food costs triple what it costs elsewhere. Gas is over 1.50 a gallon. I've seen it as high as 2 bucks a gallon. Cabs cost five bucks, one way, usually -- or more. The subway is something like a buck fifty per trip (I didn't take the subway, myself, I did the bridge and tunnel routine).
Even FINDING an apartment is nearly impossible. Most realtors won't even talk to you unless you can demonstrate that you make more than 72K. And, you have to pay them ten to twenty percent of yearly rent as a fee, UP FRONT, before you take possession of the apartment - that is in addition to the two months security most places want, and the first month's rent, and so on and so forth.
Another thing you might want to consider, NYC charges city taxes in addition to state and federal taxes. Even if you live out in the boroughs.
Bottom line: 40K is coffee money in NYC. You're leading people astray.
Go back and live with mom and dad for a few years while you work. If the job won't let you stay in town, find a distant relative, or a friend of a friend to take you in for cheap.
Seriously.
If you need one, buy a car with 2-3 years of use on it, pay your taxes and loans, and then put the rest of your first year's pay in a trust fund where no one can touch it. (Talk to a lawyer about this. You can make the money all but bullet-proof, guaranteed to pay your retirement.)
Take the money you earn over the next four years, invest until you have a hefty down-payment on a house. Be sure to do the math on the interest your investments earn minus the interest on your debts, and give yourself a safety margin.
You'll be 27, own your home and your car and have your retirement assured.
After that, no job is a dead end job, because no employer will have anything to hold over your head. They won't pay you what you want? You can leave. They want you to work too many hours? You can leave. Personal conflicts? You can leave.
People in this position do what they want to, and they do it well. They do not have to deal with "burnout" or "overwork".
You've just worked your ass off for four years. Another five aren't going to kill you.
i have a friend who makes 40k a year, and she has a studio apartment in the village for 900/month.
funny how she seems to make it ok...
... hi bingo
Its true you won't find many jobs writing linked lists these days (Who wants to?!?) but you aren't confined to admin jobs. I wouldn't know where to start coding a scheduler but I'm not quite at the Access and ASP level yet.
The hard problem in in house software development isn't the coding (well, sometimes it is) its understanding the problem you are trying to solve and implementing solutions. These are untidy, people generated business problems and I think that puts a lot of geeks off.
I code for a living and I make good money solving hard problems because I understand the domain, have analyis and design skills and get on with the client.
(and I'm over forty, so there is still hope for most of you)
John Carmack is currently the god of 3D game engine
I think this guy can do anything he want, and he probably has the better wages at Id, simply because he IS id.
Id is nothing without him, nobody can kick him out
no?
Croweye
By the time you get that RN degree, there will be MILLIONS of cheap imported h1b nurses. The other poster was right--you should have bought a house instead of the Vette: the house will only become more and more valuable as the ranchers (oops...polticians) cram more and more livestock (oops, hardworking immigrants) onto their ranch (oops...America). Those livestock gotta live somewhere....
This post is protected under the DMTA (Digital Millemium Trolling Act). It is illegal to moderate it as a troll.
Yes, and dentist's have the ADA, accountants have the AICPA, and lawyer's have the ABA. What professional association of the magnitude of the ABA or AMA represents modern IT engineers? The answer is, there is no professional association with any weight behind it that represents engineers.
We do have a well-financed association or lobbying group financed by the employers of the IT profession (Microsoft, IBM etc.) called the ITAA, which has been making war on our profession for years. Their sole purpose is to flood the IT labor market in order to drive up IT unemployment and drive down wages. They also despise worker independence which is why they love H1-B restrictions (forcing H1-Bs to stick with rotten companies during green card applications) and support section 1706 in the tax code (which forces independent consultants into body shops).
The first high-rated post said "we can all become managers!" Um, no, we can not all become managers, most of the IT departments I've worked at have had anywhere from 10-30 people under a manager, so when one of them goes on to be a manager, what becomes of everyone else. Also, good programmers don't necessarily mean good managers, and mediocre programmers can be good managers. I could go on, but the article is true that 24/7 oncall for years on end, constantly working weekends and 60 hour weeks can lead to burnout, and that many companies don't like hiring people over a certain age.
From a personal standpoint, I believe the failure of engineers to form an association that can counter the ITAA's war on our profession in Washington, as well as the failure to form consulting companies which are geared more towards worker-ownership and worker-control (although there are some, like RMPCP) is due to the fact that many of the people in this profession are the stereotypical socially retarted dorks, who are unable to socialize normally with other human beings, and who place their entire self-worth in the idea that they are the smartest programming super-genius whose skills are better than everyone else, who works harder than anyone else and so forth, so why would he have to have an association like the ABA or AMA with other engineers like every other god-damn profession does? Believe me, doctors are not stupid, cutting someone open and operating on their beating heart is a lot more complicated than opening up a computer and adding more RAM to it. They're not stupid, many of them are very smart actually, and we should follow their example and form a professional association.
For my preference, I like the Programmer's Guild, if you don't like them you can form your own or join a different one, although I'd hope if there were several associations they'd work together in fighting the ITAA's attempts to steal our intellectual property and drive us out of work in Washington. There are engineers working on this and have been for years, but our numbers are small and we need more engineers to just cursorily educate themselves about these things, and then spread the word and educate others about these things, just a few more people on board and it will reach critical mass and we can get the word out more. To me, it's not just about fighting for my profession, it's a principle thing, I'm sick of being kicked around by Microsoft (and IBM, Oracle etc.) via their ITAA yap dog, and I'm glad that I'm actually doing something about it.
My web page that deals with all of this is the Oncall Guild web page. We're not a group that seeks paying membership, anyone can be a member, just educate yourself about this, spread the word and join organizations like the Programmer's Guild or similar good organizations to do something about it. Some of the older engineering organizations are discussed on the web page, both the problems (corporate-financed to the point that they have killed campaigns that oppose the ITAA with threats, too academically focused, created decades ago and not focused on the modern IT profession and so forth) and good things (surveys about salary and other matters, allowing engineers to network with each other).
I'm 21 years old, got my degree a year ago, and have been doing things in the field as a professional for the last year and a half. Like most my age, I have been around computers the better part of my life. The worry with programming is the current influx of "programmers" who think that they are programmers. At my place of business, potential coders are given a short but sweet quiz to test their raw knowledge at the interview. I remember the first question I was asked about C "What does a #include do?". While most of you will laugh at the simplicity of that (I had to try very hard to keep a straight face), there are scores upon scores of college graduates who put C or C++ or Java on their resume that don't even know the answer to that question. I pride myself in the knowledge I have of my field, and feel I can match skills to anyone my age (within reason, never written in machine code, but I know some who have). What it comes down to is that programming and software engineering used to be a profession that people joined with good intentions and pride. If you were able to carry the title "Senior Software Engineer", your peers know that you earned it and you have incredible skill and ability. Now with the market flooded with people who would rather call tech support to figure out the syntax on a for loop than look in the book on their shelf, the prestige of being a software engineer has been dumbed down. I have had to demonstrate to people who were college grads in computer science and computer engineering how to install a PCI card. I just feel that there is something wrong with that. And to all those who have been in the field for 20+ years, I know you can probably put me in the same catagory that I just described. Hopefully I can become a guru with time.
The idea behind the quote is not that there isn't any progress in computers, but that they aren't going away any time soon.
Part of what makes a job pay great is the ability to be able to do things that others can't. What happens when Everyone is taught how to use a computer from the age of 3? There's a mass influx of people who can do the work, and the value of that work depreciates.
It sounds kind of like a science fiction novel, doesn't it? And I imagine people will say, "Shut up DarkHelmet, not everyone in the future is going to be like Wesley Crusher! How the hell can we take you seriously with a name like that?"
But can't you picture it? After all, how many people 500 years ago knew how to read? It's very possible that this might be the next thing that Everyone needs to learn to do. Especially when someday in the not-so-distant future that manual labor becomes impractical.
I'm not saying that everyone is going to be able to talk in 1's and 0's like Bill Gates out of a Saturday Night Live sketch. But then, how many of us nowadays use punch cards in order to write programs? And how many more of us are programmers because it's not longer that way?
Compiler design will never die. AI, GUI, higher level programming concepts will still require higher level thinkers. But agree with me or not on the outlook of the future, simple programming will become commonplace in the future. Count on it.
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
So a true plumber only likes to work with pipes, and a true carpenter only like sto work with wood?
A true garbageman only likes to work with garbage?
Don't mix obsession up with skill. They are not at all related.
Is that 99% of the people who post on Slashdot are poseurs and technological dilettantes. I like to call them Slashweenies.
Their knowledge of programming is about as deep as the president's knowledge of quantum physics. They would be losers no matter what profession they chose.
and program as a hobby. A few years ago I had to choose what to do. Programming and computers were going in a direction I didn't like. I knew that I wouldn't be able to make a living working on project I enjoyed, or live where I wanted (small town). Short term jobs and projects, moving, burnout and high pressure, 16 hr days. No way.
So I became a refrigeration mechanic. The work is challenging and interesting, pays very well for the educational investment. And I have time for family and hobbies. I miss being able to get into a big project and flog away at it, but my skills are still there and being maintained.
Someone mentioned that free software was wrecking the industry. Maybe. But if the choice is learning a unix/linux api and MS api's, I like what we got now. Three or four years ago there was no choice.
Derek
Your ideas sound a lot like something anarcho-syndicalist and MIT professor Noam Chomsky said once at a speech. Chomsky realizes that his ideas are as revolutionary as say, the industrial revolution, but he's practical, and there is a very large social movement in the US and in the world dedicated to anarcho-syndicalist ideas and bringing them into society in a very practical, pragmatic and direct way. Here's what Chomsky said about working on command and being a wage slave in response to a question -
.. Alexis de Tocqueville says, "Under wage labor, the art advances, the artisan declines".
Questioner: "I was curious about you remarks about [those people] and that maybe the best idea was for them to own the firms themselves."
Chomsky: Ok let's just talk about the principle.
The principle, as far as I can see, goes right back to the Enlightenment. Like if you go back to classical Enlightenment thought. I'm now talking about Adam Smith, and Jefferson and those guys. The sort of core idea, is: people have the a right to control their own work.
Ok that -- here I'll quote a standard formula, back in the 18th century, OF leading heros of the Enlightenment, is: "if a person does beautiful work, under external command" -- meaning for wages -- "we may admire what he does, but we despise what he is" -- because he's not a free human being, ok?
That goes all the way through classical liberal thought, Enlightenment thought, I mean
Now, you find this going right into the working class movements in Lowell and Lawrence -- I think that's just natural. I wouldn't try to convince anybody of it.
It seems to me [that] if you think about it, yeah, why should you work on command?
I mean, if you work on command, you're some kind of slave, you know?
Why not work because it comes out of your needs and interests?
I mean, it's like cheap for me to say, I'm at a fancy university in a science department and I can do that. One of the nice things about being in a science department at a fancy university is you really do have worker's control -- I mean, to a very large extent -- we control what we do. "Want to work on this topic, or work on that topic?" I mean, you gotta sell it to funders, and this and that, but the degree of workers' control at the elite level is quite substantial. I mean, that's why it's such a privilege to be in a science department. An enormously privileged existence. Forget the money. If they paid you one tenth the money it would still be a much better existence than working on command.
Now, I think people do know that, you know. I don't think that these Enlightenment ideas are hard to grasp. I think people know that if you work under external control, "you may admire what the person does, but we despite what he is", because, his labor, you know, the sort of central part of your life, is being done at somebody else's orders. And you're not controlling the way it's done, or why it's done, or how it's used, or anything else. Well, you can't have every individual controlling every single thing -- but that's why you have democratic structures, 'cause [so] people control things together.
I don't know how to, I wouldn't try to convince anyone of this, 'cause frankly, I just don't believe that everyone doesn't already know it. I think -- maybe I'm sentimental -- but it seem to me that if you sort of cut away waves of, layers of distortion and illusion, these things that were considered pretty obvious 200 years ago, are still obvious."
Goes back to 1884 (AIEE and IRE formed the basis of what is now the IEEE -- the two merged in the early 60s). There are Societies for almost every engineering discipline and chapters all over the world.
Just wanted to point out that the statement that there is no significant professional organization for engineers (i.e. the actual people -- not just the large companies with interests and deep pockets) is definitely not true. Of course, the IEEE is more technical than political in nature -- which, by the general content of your post, could be the reason you leave them out.
You can learn more at their website.
Heaps of fun, like being payed to play with Lego all day.
The only problem was it didn't pay as well as SAP does, which is really pretty boring. And I had to program it in C, which is really just a glorified universal assembler. The central computer was using Delphi, which is really a great development tool, combining the Ease of VB with the Power of C++.
Microsoft - Where would you like to go today, Maybe Jail?
I totally agree that as long as you love what you are doing, you'll keep doing it. I find myself in a very privileged position - I get payed for doing what I would do anyway - programming. I love waking up and go to work and do what I have done since my teens.
I agree that IEEE has some good points, especially in terms of discussion of technical issues. It also has some very glaring bad points with regards to professional issues other than increasing technical knowledge. Although a reform effort in IEEE and IEEE-USA would be helpful, reforming this century-old association is an enormous task, and associations like the Programmer's Guild can do a lot more in the meantime while that reform effort is underway.
h _s Ec2.5.1
Norm Matloff pinpoints the problem with IEEE so well in his excellent research paper "Debunking the Myth of a Software Labor Shortage" that I'll just excerpt from that:
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html#tt
In 1998, the engineering professional organization IEEE-USA (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers-USA) had lobbied Congress strongly against the H-1B quota increase which was proposed that year. (It had been a major critic of the H-1B program in the past as well.) As an organization of over 200,000 members nationwide, it was a force to be reckoned with.
However, as a result, IEEE-USA then came under enormous pressure from corporate and academic interests in the parent organization IEEE to moderate its position. IEEE-USA then hired Paul Donnelly as a consultant, whose job was ``to help wean the organization from its outright opposition to immigration.'' (The New Republic, June 19, 2000.) Donnelly is the former staffer with the Congressional Commission on Immigration Reform described in Section 2.3.4.
Around the same time, IEEE-USA greatly toned down its Web site. It removed its ``Misfortune 500'' file, a compendium of 500 engineers, mainly older, who were having trouble finding engineering work in spite of the alleged high-tech boom. It also removed from the site its report on a 1998 Harris Poll which had shown that 82% of Americans opposed the H-1B increase.
Donnelly convinced IEEE-USA to support his proposal - similar to one formulated by Congressional Commission on Immigration Reform as mentioned above - under which industry could bring in foreign engineers and programmers on an expedited basis, giving them ``instant green cards'' and bypassing the H-1B stage. This new stance on IEEE-USA's part was counter to its previous view that industry should hire/retrain American programmers and engineers, but apparently the organization felt that its new position would relieve the pressure brought to bear on it by the parent organization.
However, Donnelly was up against his rival, Rick Swartz (again, see Section 2.3.4), and up against Swartz's allies representing the computer industry, who apparently wanted to retain the ``indentured servant'' nature of the H-1B workers. Those lobbyists dismissed Donnelly as ``anti-immigrant,'' in spite of his work as a consultant to immigrants and as a longtime advocate for relieving the greencard backlog for the spouses and children of immigrants. (Wired News, May 15, 2000.)
Meanwhile, Swartz had acquired a new client, the Immigrant Support Network, an organization of H-1Bs who were hoping to get Congress to alleviate the ``indentured servitude'' problem. (See Section 2.4.)
Donnelly still tried to get Microsoft to support the ``instant greencard'' proposal. However, Microsoft's counsel and lobbyist, Ira Rubinstein, simply stalled, saying that he may support the proposal in the future but now wished to concentrate on H-1Bs. Later Rubinstein tried other stall tactics as well. (Personal communication with Paul Donnelly, June 17, 2000.)
Personally I do not support the Donnelly proposal, because although it would fix the problem of H-1B ``indentured servitude,'' a worthy goal, it would not address the problems of age discrimination and so on which are being fueled by the influx of foreign programmers. Nevertheless, the industry's continuing rejection of the Donnelly proposal, which would bring in the workers they say are needed and would reduce paperwork and trouble for the employers, shows that they do indeed wish to retain the indentured-servant nature of the H-1B program. And the personal attacks on Donnelly are uncalled for.
I prefer to think of my programming job as a nice, quite cul de sac, away from the hustle and bustle of regular working life. There are advantages to dead ends, you know.
Four fifths of all our troubles in this life would disappear if we would just sit down and keep still. -C. Coolidge
This is very true. I'm graduating in a few months from a major university, I'm doing just this. I'm going to have my bachelor's in Molecular Biology, with an emphasis in computing. I've been programming since the beginning of high school, so the degree didn't actually get me much in the way of new skills, but the point is that I can apply it to whatever else I want to do.
Right now I'm the only person in my lab with any extensive computer knowledge. My boss is an incredibly bright, MD/PHD, who knows virology backwards and forwards, but in terms of computer work, her knowledge doesn't go much beyond Word and PowerPoint. I wanted my student research project to make use of my computer skills, so I've been working on setting up a bunch of ruby scripts and MySQL databases using the Human Genome data.
No one else in my lab, or possibly even in my building, has any idea as to how to do this.
Having programming skills provides me with a unique tool to do the most modern kind of research in biology. The crowning scientific achievment of the millenium was the completion of the Human Genome project, and in order to effectively use it one needs extensive computer skills. Very few biologists have these skills, and in order to be an effective researcher it's going to be crucial. The project I've designed for myself is really exciting, because no one in my particular field is doing it at all, simply because so few molecular biologists are also programmers.
As a side note to this, I'm also finishing a minor in English, which provides me with the writing and analytical skills that very few scientists posess. I'm always the one my boss comes to when a grant or manuscript needs proofreading.
Basically, whatever you study, don't limit yourself to one area. If all you are is a programmer, then it's much harder to expand. Learn various skill sets and ways of thinking and you'll be able to move in directions that few other people can. You might not have an obvious niche, like "Systems Programming" or "Cell Culture Expert", but you can build yourself a niche that no one else may have thought of.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
Like the subject says.
If you produce for a living, you are in a dead end job.
The only way to be free is to live off of others.
That is capitalism. Suck it up, slaves. Hahaha
You mention Bill Gates. He never was one of those typical MBA types either, but he did well.
MBA types are probably more consistent in terms of management ability than scientists and engineers. That's just because there's less weeding and grooming for those qualities on the tech side. But when you look at the history, quite a lot of good managers and businessmen come out of there too, and they tend to be much more "out of the box"
In most states, to call yourself an "engineer," or to advertise your services as "engineering," you must be registered as a Professional Engineer (PE). That usually requires passing a couple exams, along with several years of work under the supervision of a PE.
This is rather difficult in electrical engineering, because there are relatively few PEs working in the field, and the exams are biased toward structural, civil, and other "public works" type engineering.
Some effort is being made to recognize the difference between traditional PE disciplines and electronics, to create a PE process more suited to those disciplines, but in most cases, it is still difficult to get PE certification working as an electrical (non)engineer.
As a software person, forget it.
Just because someone calls it "software engineering" doesn't make you an engineer.
(Of course, you can have whatever job title you want. "Sanitation Engineer," etc. But you still shouldn't advertise yourself as an engineer. Try "Software Designer," "Programmer," etc.)
Damn, makes me wish I had some mod points spare! :)
More like:
If you are willing to put up with not knowing whether your program is the problem or it is a bug in the language, and willing to spend hours looking up API when you run into a wall because you thought outside the MS-box and need to do something they didn't spoon feed you, then you can get a job anywhere.
Jobs working with MS products should pay a lot more, they are a whole lot more stressful.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
I spent from fa97-sp01 getting a bachelor of music degree on french horn performance. Granted, I have a lovely (psych major) girlfriend, college was a breeze, and I did what I loved... but for almost the past year, my job situation, from a profitability standpoint, has been limbo. There's a Navy Band audition coming up in June in which I will participate, competing against maybe twenty or thirty other people for one spot, which I will probably fail. If I make it, that's cool, I'm set for life, start at $40k, and can retire with full gov't pension etc at the ripe old age of 42. If I don't? Back to work at the bicycle shop for $8.50 an hour, which is enough to pay the car bills, keep me fed, and allow me to live in mom and dad's fucking basement. You have 1337 j0b skillz; I have a paper degree and another year of loan remaining on my '95 Hyundai.
The pain was excruciating and the scarring is likely permanent, but that just means it's working.
> I hate to say this, Kerck, but after you got bitch
> slapped by Malda, you've turned into a fluffy kitty
> cat.
WTF are you talking about?
I would kick Taco Malda's ass if he ever had the balls to say any of that shit to my face. Literally, I would kick the shit out of him.
"If you are willing to put up with not knowing whether your program is the problem or it is a bug in the language, and willing to spend hours looking up API when you run into a wall because you thought outside the MS-box and need to do something they didn't spoon feed you, then you can get a job anywhere."
LOL, spouting things spoon fed to you by linux zealots(not all people who use and enjoy linux are zealots btw). I hate to break it to you, but every API, language, and OS that has ever been or will be is going to have bugs, quirks, and work-arounds.
Work is called work for a reason. It is not always enjoyable or fun. If you are one of the people who doesn't have a job b/c you refuse to work with MS products then fine. When you spout that you have been looking for a year to find a job, but there aren't any around make sure to qualify it properly. "I can't get a job because I am an arrogant linux zealot" will work nicely.
Especially when all they have to do is throw a dart and pick those two lines from a chart...
- interesting read
- must read
- fast read
- worth a read
...dolts.
I agree. There's another problem too: If you can't hit the ground running, you're not going to get hired.
I'll be graduating with a CS degree from a top-tier university this May, but so far, from my job hunting experience, that still doesn't get you much closer to a job. If you don't know J2EE, Microsoft .NET and Oracle, you're simply not in demand. At all. It's not that as though I couldn't learn them quickly once hired (which is why you go to a university, to learn how to learn), but the people making hiring decisions want people with 5+ years experience. And unfortunately "I read a book on Microsoft .NET" is not very fashionable on a resume, despite what experience it may lend. It's not that I don't have any industrial experience either--I've held several summer/parttime jobs in which I programmed heavily in C, C++, Java, Perl and SQL (using an open source DBMS), but again, this seemingly arbitrary quantification of years of experience is apparently what sells, not your past work ethic or potential.
It's easy for anyone who has a job to say that there's plenty of jobs out there, but clearly people who complain that there is a lack of jobs aren't just doing it to boost their egos or impress the opposite sex.
Every job has a burnout rate. I would wager that 80% of the people in North America do their job because they can stand it and they need the money. 15% do it because they love it, and 5% don't need to because they're financially independant. 80% of the population looks forwards to Friday. That's 80% of about 280 million people (I'm discounting teenagers and youngins). Programming doesn't burn you out, your job does.
"It's here, but no one wants it." - The Sugar Speaker
Stallman's contribution to GCC is really nothing more than his 'keep at it spirit' that extended it beyond the typical College Undergrade Compiler Project that it essentially was under his control. What's with you all claiming it's his code. There's probably less than 1000 lines of his code left in the GCC that everybody uses today.
Don't you get it? It's not Stallman's code. It hasn't been for years. That's what the GPL is all about. Community based extend-and-embrace.
Stallman's biggest contribution was his political will, not his coding finesse.
The simple measure here: "as long as you love doing it, you'll keep doing it." Isn't this true for any career?
Maybe if you're Michael Jordan...
If you fail to adopt what is new out there, you are "OBSOLETE", period.
I agree that programming is not a dead end job at present. But I worry about it in the future because Artificial Intellegence is bound to take over many jobs in the future. Would a company rather have a person coding with all thier idiosyncracies, or a machine that would work 24-7 without any breaks, or rights for that matter. While the speed of CPUs are not as powerfull as the human brain currently, this could easily change in the next 100 or so years.
I majored in music. After college I was a professional musican for a good number of years--worked with several major symphony orchestras, toured, travelled, did recordings for radio and TV, and taught a whole slew of students. I worked from 9:00 am to well past midnight.
When I had a day or two off, I felt compelled to practice for that next audition to get that next gig...
The net at year's end divided by the hours expended hardly seemed worth the effort, so I took up programming.
Now I work from 9:00 am to only 11:15 pm. But I get to sleep in my own bed each night and do not have to catch the red-eye special every week nor do I have to live on a dingy bus.
Though, when I do have a day or two off, I still feel compelled to practice for that next gig. But at least I do not keep the neighbors awake at night any more!
....thats a bit harsh! I think there's a good future for these new-fangled devices everyones talking about.
In the 60s, it was polymer chemistry. Then consumer electronics in the 70s followed by computer and telecom hardware in the 80s. During the 90s, software became the hot field. I started in electronics and changed careers after the work dried up. What I have consistently found is that I'm by far the oldest programmer everywhere I go. The kids don't view me as a geezer yet because I'm a karate instructor and I lift weights like a convict. I'm still wilder than most of them are. But the writing is on the wall. I will have to change sooner or later, whether I want to or not.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
We used to joke about it, you get promoted to management in direct correlation to your level of incompetence.
Rarely were people who were good at their job, promoted. Financial compensation still happens but the elevation up into management doesn't.
If it did, there wouldn't be nearly the number of project management snafu's or death marchs based on the management actually having a clue about what it may take to get various milestones met.
I saw first-hand many times that someone who was a problem person or incompentent placed in the position of managing a new project or department.
I asked once and the manager said(not the one moved) it was easier to move them out of the way then go through the HR nightmare of firing him.
What you say is nice when practiced, but I have yet to see it happen with any consistency.
It was for informational purposes only.
"I don't think it's selfish, to eat defenseless shellfish." -NOFX
(* It can be difficult to keep up with quickly changing technology, but it can also be exciting. *)
I like learning new things when I see *value* in them. However, it seems like that I.T. is becoming more like the clothing fashion industry: it makes more money when styles change because people don't buy new clothes as often if styles don't change. Thus, there is a built-in incentive to hype "new things" just for the sake of change.
Such change is often not evolution upward, but sideways change just because it is different.
Java sucks eggs and XML is warmed-over static LISP. The "newer" guys suck up all the BS about these because they don't know better. Those of us who have seen the same things get repackaged and re-combined under a different name are a bit frustrated with pointless change.
True "eureka!" technologies only come about once a decade. The rest is just trade-rag play and marketing gimmicks. PHB's are almost as gullible as the newbies.
However, those of us who express such skepticism are often looked down upon as "out of touch". Thus, the oldbees are forced to go with the flow and *pretend*. If I was one who liked pretending, then I would be a manager instead of programmer.
More about the self-fulfilling fad-tred-mill at:
http://geocities.com/tablizer/itpot.htm
Table-ized A.I.
Well The House just voted to abolish the INS since they don't enforce any immigration laws including H1-B reviews and deportations.
So see you guys later, have fun back home, say hi to Ihsmaligcae.
(* Rather, development is done the way it is because proramming is *hard*. Nitty-gritty, systems development (as opposed to Web developemnt, or writing DB front ends, or using some SDK with the hard stuff taken care of already) takes real talent, *)
I don't like this characterization. Custom business development is generally hard because it is full of nitty-gritty and capricous business rules. You are essentially trying to model the managers/decision-maker's heads.
Further, they wan't impossible things web pages to act like GUI's/VB, which HTML+DOM+JavaScript does very poorly and buggily and version-sensative. (It is time for a new biz-oriented HTTP GUI standard to catch on. HTML+DOM+JavaScript really stink.)
If a task grows repetitious enough to get "boring", then automate it! Automate the automation, in essence. The more drudgery you automate, the more you can spend on non-drudgery. (Of course, you can risk automating yourself out of a job under some circumstances.)
I view "systems development" as repeatedly reinventing the database using hand-built linked-lists, etc because you are not allowed to use a "real" collection engine due to performance reasons.
(* or using some SDK with the hard stuff taken care of already *)
This is bad? You would rather reinvent the wheel? What joy is that? I prefer to be the conductor and composer instead of a violin player.
(* Furthermore, it is many, many times more cost-effective to buy software off the shelf.... and pay for high administrative costs than it is to custom-design software to fit an organization's exact needs. *)
That is bull-sh*t! The easy-to-automate stuff has already been done. "Generic" applications tend to be pains in the butt because a typical company uses only about 20 percent of the features because the authors try to cover as many situations as possible, the other 80 percent get in the way, and it *still* lacks many needed/wanted features.
Generally the more specialized the business, the harder it is to find good pre-built solutions.
Things like HR and helpdesk are common enuf that there are decent off-the-shelf solutions out there. However, with line-of-business operations (the primary product/service), getting a pre-built solution is risky, and has mixed results.
Often the managers realize that the sales people exaggerated the benefits and bamboozled them, but don't readily admit it. The next generation of managers who are less politically tied to the decision are the ones who openly recognize and talk about the problems and often want to replace it with custom-built stuff.
If have seen plenty of problematic pre-built solutions. They are *not* a panacea. Decent surveys do not show a significant difference in approval of pre-built solutions for complex business operations over custom-built ones.
Table-ized A.I.
Programming is like prositution.
First you do it for love.
Then you do it for friends.
Then you do it for the money.
I don't know where this guy is pulling all of this stuff from, but everything I have seen in my life so far is excatly the opposite when it comes to age. My father is nearly 50 and a prominent programmer. The author states that "many 50-ish engineers will never learn Java, C++, and other new technologies." Did he just make this up? My father knows Java inside out and has programmed in C++ for years. The only programmers at his company are in his same state as well. They are all his age and know just as much.
The author also states, "Other employers look askance at the high older engineer salaries and will consider replacing one old fart with two newbies." Here's another thing I have yet to see (excluding the dot com period, which is not reality.) I don't know of any companies that would pass up hiring my dad to hire a couple of people who really don't know much and can't get as much done as him, even if it costs more. He can get more done than a dozen fresh programmers because he has so much more experience and actually knows what he's doing. That's what the companies want. Heck, the older programmers at his company are so valuable to the company that the company has more life insurance on each one of them individually than anyone else at the company, including the CEO etc because they are so hard to replace and the fear that if one of them was lost, it would hurt the company so much.
And how could you not expect older programmers to keep up on new technology? Every other profession has to keep up on new developments. What would would happen if we all went to our doctors to try to get treatment for something somewhat new or diagnosed for a newly discovered disease and all of them told you they had heard the name of the disease/treatment but didn't know anything about it. Any programmer that doesn't keep up on new developments is going to be screwed.
How about just don't tell your boss and keep your personal circumstances to yourself, and quit when it suits you.
I pursued my degree in computer science because I wanted to learn. If you went into this field for other reasons... well, maybe you shouldn't have.
that is what i keep hearing about college. you sound like you went through the same 4-5 years of hell I and countless others have gone through in CS. antisocial? lack people skills? Hey, the CS deptartment made us this way.
You finally got your degree, you think "now is the time i'll get my reward for all those hard years". Nope! nobody is hiring. 2 years into this field, I wish I could go back 7 years and become a doctor.
Respect? what's that? we are a bunch of code monkeys. "will code for food".
Clue for y'all. Engineering has, and will always have, as one of it's design techniques the elimination of as much manual labor as possible in a process to meet cost requirements.
Civil Engineers ran off the longshoremen with shipping containers
Mechanical Engineers ran off the millwrights through greater automation
Computer Engineers ran off the draftmen through improvements in CAD/CAM/CAE
and Software Engineers will run off the coders through automated software development tools.
It'll take a while. Decades. But it'll come. Software is cost effective when economy of scale is on your side. Mission critical in-house stuff - way too expensive.
So programming - largely dead end. Computer Science - go talk to physics. Very important, but not a large field. Software Engineering - that's the top of the food chain.
Ok, it's quite clear that you are not an engineer, or were done a great disservice from your university.
7 05 . tml
Just like the professions you list, Engineers have these organizations. There are many of them just as there are many Engineering fields. ASME, ASCE, IEEE, ACM, AICHE, and so on. 'Professional Engineer' is a formal title granted by most states, Canada, UK, not unlike Attorney at Law, Physician, Registered Nurse, Certified Public Accountant.
States are now beginning to recognize 'Professional Software Engineer' as a formal title. Texas was the first. New Jersey is considering doing the same.
http://www.chipcenter.com/columns/COL_SLO_20000
The problem is that you have the issue totally wrong. None of these organizations or structures are created to protect jobs. Nobody gives a shit whether you keep your job or not. These groups exist (as do the AMA, ABA, etc.) to protect the integrity of the profession. If you feel these H1B workers are undermining the integrity of this profession, or are causing a risk to the public at large, that's a excellent reason to protect the profession - to ensure that those who practice are of high caliber and bear the responsibility that comes with the job. And who oversees the licensing of engineers, works with the state labor boards, designs the exams? ASME, ASCE, IEEE, ACM, AICHE, and so on.
Don't be too eager for this to happen. All Professional Engineers (PEs) need to graduate from an accredited program (most CS programs are not accredited) pass an exam called the Fundamentals of Engineering, work for a minimum of 4 years under a Professional Engineer and earn 5 letters of recommendation to the state labor board from Professional Engineers, and take another exam called the Principles and Practices of Engineering.
As a Professional Engineer, you will be solely qualified to perform specific job tasks - such as seal design plans, testify as an expert witness, and so on. Nobody can encroach on your job. You can also be sued for malpractice and be held criminally liable for work that fails to adhere to federal, state, and local standards. And you get to do this for every state that you practice in.
The problem that programmers are facing stems from the fact that as a group, they are unwilling to establish standards for practice. There are no standards as to what constitutes good software or bad software. There are no standards for testing. No standards for interface or for communication. No standards for what constitutes a proper education to practice.
Engineers as a group have done this. Without it, there is no case to be made that some 14 year old from Thailand isn't as fully qualified to as a 50 year old Ph.D. with 25 years of experience at writing software.
Just to be clear - I'm not an engineer. I'm a mathematician and physicist. I can't be an engineer. I can't pretend to be an engineer. But I've been a programmer and as far as anyone is concerned, I'm every bit as qualified as you to be one. After all, I don't have to take responsibility for my work either.
for sure did hit dead end... since he started as a programmer!
Embedded Systems is the easiest field for an older programmer to get work in 'coz:
a) Most Uni courses turn out grad's with almost no experience of ES (little asm, hardly any hardware experience, etc).
b) ES are small. Resources are low. CPU is slow. Makes it hard for MS/*nix programmers well versed in Java/C#/C++ with all the trimmings/etc to write code that'll fit.
I've had no trouble finding ES work, ever (ok, I'm only 30, but I've got friends in their late 30's who have the same experience).
High level programming is where you have to compete with the young sperms spewing out of college, dunno why the guy who wrote the article thought it applied to ES??????
+++ BASELINE REALITY FAILURE+++ +++ PLEASE REBOOT UNIVERSE +++
I've got news: every job is a dead end job. Sooner or later you are going to die, and even if you're Bill Gates, you can't take your "Smart House" and the rest of your gold with you.
Get a clue, get your head out of your ass, and start thinking about what's really important. Maybe you'll learn how to think, how to live, and what it means to be human.
I feel that there is a way one can experience a sort of middle road in between a programmer and a so called manager. I am working for myself with a few of my friends in our own company that sells software solutions and being the small unit that we are most of the stuff be it programming as well as managing the schedule of a project is done by us. Up until now ( at least in my point of view ) there hasn't been a dull moment ! Yes there were a few points along the lines where we worried about getting both the ends to meet as well being so tired out that we literally fell asleep on our feet, but then we never once thought to ourselves that programming is a dead end job. I think it's the element of risk and working for yourself that makes this kind of life style so appealing. I feel that the management side of my job complements the programming side very well and my love for programming has not decreased one bit. So, if you are beginning to feel the drugery of working as a programmer for a huge corporation ... and you are not really worried about starving for your love of what you like to do ( programming ? ), why not strike out on your own ? Take it from me, there won't be one dull moment and then maybe then you can see the picture from the view of the people up there in management ...
There's tons of money in embedded systems. I'm a C/C++ coder, 31 years old, and last year I made thousands of extra "consulting" dollars doing embedded systems programming for Z80 systems (among others). No one knows how the fuck to do it, the original progammer has long moved on, and I bill by the hour. My billing is comparable to a good lawyer.
Not only that, but there's tons of satisfaction in embedded system programming. What coder hasn't run into "it's the other guy's software that's causing the problem." It's that stupid ActiveX control, or Word crashes, or Windows crashes, or the glibc library has a bug in it, etc., etc. Often those excuses are true. With embedded systems you get to write rock-solid code that works, by God! It works ALL THE TIME. It DOESN'T FUCKING CRASH. Script kiddies don't own a damn thing; embedded system programmers OWN THE MACHINE. You're not a real programmer until you've done some embedded system work. If you pretenders to the throne don't like it, go piss up a rope, or take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut, and then go back to your VB and Perl.
I'm in a better position than most programmers my age. Despite the fact I'm in the center of the baby boomer peak population, there aren't that many programmers my age because most had to work with relatively inaccessible mainframes in college. However, I can, along with guys like Larry Wall, attest to the fact that I don't program like the demon I used to. There are those who would say I am a damn good designer/architect, etc. but really -- there are lots of guys who would be just as good as I am for the vast majority of projects. When it comes right down to it, there isn't a need for many people in those positions and having an oversupply of "designers" looking for justification for their position is one of the worst things you can do to a project.
Bottom line, I can't in good conscience recommend that young men go into programming. I've been invited to teach university classes on programming and declined in part due to that fact.
Lest this sound bitter or something, it really isn't. Like I said, I'm in a lot better position than most programmers my age and although that's not saying much anymore, it is saying something.
If I had it to do over again, would I choose programming as a profession? No. I don't think I would. Right now, I wish I'd spent more of my youthful energy learning how to survive without civilization because it just doesn't seem to be all it was cracked up to be in the stories told to men of the GI generation who gave up their independence of family farm lifestyle for dependence on grocery stores, mortgage interest deductions and increasingly intrusive government "protection".
Seastead this.
I DO think this article is mainly talking about the embedded software market and not about the programmer job in general.
As I'm working as embedded software developer I can agree agree with the article that there are few 'older' people working on embedded software (there still are!). But I do believe there is also a big technical reason for the this. The embedded software market has changed very very rapidly. A few years ago you still had to write everything (realtime OS + software) but these days also the hardware for embedded software is increasing quickly. Many embedded systems run quite advanced OSes (or its even common to choose freeBSD based or Linux for embedded systems) which changed the work of the embedded programmers. Embedded programming is more and more like normal desktop programming with the main difference that you will probably not build your image/executable on the same machine as it runs. I believe that for many old embedded developers (who originally came from hardware centric education) this change is very difficult and many choose to not go with this change!
I do not believe in the money point of view and agree with the statements made earlier that in bog companies an 'senior engineer' in a team will often make more money than his manager for the simple reason that its often more easy to replace the management than to replace the technical staff.
Once upon a time, there were a whole bunch of rifle-makers who used to make rifles by hand. They used to say "Nobody can make as good a rifle as me, I'm a king, the world is my oyster!"
Then along came Eli Whitney, the inventor of the cotton gin. He developed the concept of mass-production of interchangeable parts.
After that, nobody made rifles by hand anymore.
Learn from it!
I'm confused, could you elucidate there?
I thought LISP was a programming language and XML was a data format?
My Journal
I have a reply prior to this with regards to the problems I see with the IEEE. As far as the ACM, they fall into one of the categories I mentioned in my first post with the old associations - they are born of academia and too close to academia, and their association covers little to do with the modern IT professional. For example, from what I can see, their Washington lobby is mainly concerned with interests serving people working in academia, such as more government financing for scientific research in academia. There is some crossover, but they are not concerned with the interests of the modern IT professional in general who is either a programmer or administrator (systems, database, or network).
You mention two things in your post - H1-Bs and professional standards. I do think the H1-B cap issue should be dealt with, and associations like the Programmer's Guild do deal with. H1-Bs already in this country get mad with me when I tell them I want the cap lower. I have no idea what attachment they have to the cap since they already made it in. So I ask them, why do you want 195,000 *more* people coming in this year competing with you for a green card? Usually they wind up agreeing with me, a high H1-B cap is bad for me and them. H1-Bs are unhappy with the restriction that keeps them from changing jobs while applying for a green card, and I support them, I'd like to see that restriction removed as well. This is another example of something in my and their interest. I have nothing against H1-Bs, all I want to see is a lower cap. Which as I explained before, is a positive thing for the H1-Bs in this country since it increases their odds of getting a green card.
As far as professional standards and certification - I believe engineers in these associations should discuss this in these associations and decide what's best for them. The Programmers Guild discusses it's ideas regarding certification on it's web page - it says it feels certifications are currently run as money makers (something I agree with) and that it thinks money-making test preparation books and multiple choice quizzes are dumb. That is an interesting idea and I agree with it somewhat. Really, part of the best possible certification would be several technical interviews by guild/association members based on the certifee's resume. That's *real* certification.
This is the thing - current certification scams are so bad that the words certification and professional standards make most people cringe, including me. Certification has gotten such a bad rap (deservedly, as it is currently) that I wouldn't even say we would do certification, I would say "we will do certification unlike any certification you have ever heard of or done". I think putting it this way would make people cringe less upon hearing the word certification. Professional standards are important to the Programmer's Guild as well, and just like the new "non-scam" certification, our discussions of professional standards will revolve around, what will be good for us, and our profession, what standards can we have that will do more to help us than to get in the way?
I think the Programmers Guild is probably the best association with regards to these things that exists currently, and I list my thoughts on other various associations on my web page which the URL of is in my original post. And as I said in my first post, I think joining or organizing groups like the Programmer's Guild is important, but just educating yourself about the issues that the Programmers Guild and the group I am in, the Oncall Guild, and then educating other programmers/administrators about it are a good thing. We can form coalitions to help block or push through laws in Washington, we can do surveys about salary and other things, we can do *real* certifications, that really nail down skill levels, we can help facilitate the creation of consulting companies owned by the programmers who worked at them and so forth.
...but many developers move on to different roles, like software architect (less coding, but more high level development), or Project Manager, or even start a business and become the richest man in the world.
Bash Mr. Gates all you want, but he did quit college to become a developer about 15 years before it was trendy to do it.
Your view is limited and that is why jobs are scarce for you. btw, 20 bucks an hour starting is the national average for CS comming out of school. Please, figure out something else to bitch about cause it dont make sense to me.
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
A Followup:
I have gotten a few resumes. I will have to take some time to review them as I will not hand resumes that dont fit some basic requirements we have.
1. Willing to relocate to Virginia.
2. US Citizenship and ability to get Security Clearance.
3. a DEGREE (yep). Prefer CS, but others are accepted with Experience.
Since I respond only to those who inquire, I will not give the company name out. Those that have responded get that and more.
Reasons that you have not been hired:
1. No way to tell if you are a programmer on your resume full of other crazy things.
2. No way to know if you are ADDICTED TO COMPUTERS (this I love, gets people jobs a lot).
3. A resume that is stock, shows no creativity. A programmer needs to be CREATIVE!!
Chris "Winston" Litchfield.
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
"I can't get a job because I am an arrogant linux zealot" will work nicely.
I have a job. I save my company thousands of dollars a year designing Linux and open source solutions.
You argument is silly. Of course any large software project has some bugs. MS products have a disproportinate number of bugs, many of which MS won't even acknowledge as bugs. I used to program in VP and ASP and all that, about 3 years ago. Then I discovered Linux and open source. I will never ever go back.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
If the Glorious Day comes when Richard Stallman gets his way, Programming will cease to be a job, dead end or otherwise and become a hobby.
"Information wants to be paid"
After fifteen years, I'm sick of getting laid off. I'm going back to school to get some retraining to be a programmer, and if I can accumulate at least a couple years' total experience in the workplace pushing bytes around, then I'll look into the design aspect of IT -- after all, I already know I can talk to project managers, coders, and end users. I just have to get past the "Rodney Dangerfield syndrome" of being "just" a technical writer.
"How many light bulbs does it take to change a person?" --BMcC-->
If you define dead-end in monetary terms, then you're right. There probably are easier ways of earning more. But you posted to /., so dead-end has more to do with geek job satisfaction, right?
The short answer:
Programming's only a dead-end job if you allow it to be a dead-end job.
The long answer:
I'm pushing mid-40's and there still seems to be plenty of 'real programming' work around, provided you've kept your skills up to date. In the job world, for better or worse, it's survival of the fittest and age does count against you. Experience however, counts for you. In the short-to-medium term, by chosing the right projects, you get the right exprience, which guarantees that you be selected for the next project, and so on. You have to manage your own career. Don't let some manager or company do it for you. They won't have your best interests at heart. Start by deciding where you want to be in, say five or ten years, and make decisions today to move yourself in the right direction. Most important.. start doing this now.
In the longer term, I don't think age will be a big factor when changing programming jobs or trying to remain employed. If you're in the tail end of the baby boom then you have demographics working in your favor. In the coming decades there will be fewer young people entering the work force and I have read predicitions that the retirement age will slowly increase and that there will be increasing numbers of semi-retired working part time in all sorts of fields, including programming and other knowledge worker positions. Given that computers are becoming ever more prevalent, I don't think that age will matter greatly in the future when hiring programmers.
As to programming being a dead-end job. Every job is dead-end, if you hate it and are burned out. But that's your choice (really!). If you're in the wrong job, in the long term, you only have yourself to blame. If you don't like programming, then you shouldn't work as a programmer, or at least you shouldn't have high expectations for job satisfaction. If you 'have to' program for the money, then reread the first paragraph of this post again, and then decide how much money you need until you can quit and do whatever it is that you really enjoy (or make some other compromise that minimizes your time programming compared to time spent doing other things that you enjoy).
You also have to follow technological, employment and other trends. It may bore and disintrest you, but if you don't, you'll end up as evolutionary road kill with only yourself to blame. Mind you, I don't necessarily consider this aspect of our world to be a 'feature', I'd rather be hacking code. It's just the way the world is.
Yes, lower paying, 'factory coding' jobs are going offshore. Yes, fewer Y2K application rewrites will be undertaken for the next 998 years. And yes, you can probably predict many of the other important trends that will affect your employment, all by yourself. The critical part is that you do something about it. E.g. acquire skills in areas that are growing (or alternatively look for niches where your skills are superior). There are cool geek challenges everywhere, if you keep your eyes open. If you have more than half a brain and show more than usual interest, you'll be given the chance.
As the dude said:
"Computers are going nowhere folks, and as long as they are around, programmers will be necessary. "
Duh. So stop worrying and get a life.. as a geek programmer in a job that you enjoy.
Alan Hodgkinson.
At my company almost all of the senior level software engineers as well as the lead software engineer are well over 40.
Maybe in pure programming, which requires minimal design, age is not respected as much.
But designs certainly benefit from large experience pools telling what works and what doesn't.
Wish I had some mod points to give you. That's right on. Promotion to just beyond your level of competence. But then, people often want to be promoted for more money, prestige, etc. or as a defence against having a dunderhead promoted ahead of them who will then screw things up. I don't actually know that anything can be done about this....
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
I agree that what you say does happen. But, where then are the upper level managers? Are they not calling these "rotating bosses" to accountability? At some level, someone gets called to account by shareholders or owners and they OFTEN find their heads rolling if they don't have a productive, profitable, growing firm. So why are they not bringing the subordinate level of managers to heel? This is a corporate culture problem. Well run firms DO demand accountablility from the top to the bottom. And not just of management.
One of the biggest management failings, at the same time, is expecting accountability from people without any sort of buy-in or involvement. I can't very well (or shouldn't) be kicking a programmers butt for not getting something done if he didn't have a clearly defined task, good resource support, and a chance to get his input into the timeline. IT projects overrun all the time (God knows I've been on some doozies) but sometimes (like the best project I was ever on) the coders/architects get some say in the timeline and thus the timelines are realistic. I don't mean "easy" or "lax" just reflective of reality. And they aren't developed until AFTER the specifications are fully understood/agreed upon. And feature creep isn't allowed or is allowed only with commensurate injections of time during the development process. In these cases, things come in on time, on budget, and with quality.
It's just too damn sad that people never spend time to reflect on old projects and learn why they worked or failed and how to repeat success and not repeat failure.
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
I've been a programmer/software engineer/project lead for nineteen years. I'm 42 years old. I've worked for some prominent telecom, publishing, and video game companies. I quit my last job and am not sure I want to get back into it. Why? Do I no longer like software development? No, I still love creating software. I even think it's more important now than ever. The problem, at least as I see it, is that we developers don't have sufficient power. Sure, we're generally paid well, and if your not in a Dilbert like IT shop, you're probably be exposed to a a challenging and interesting variety of problem domains. So what do I mean by insufficient power? Well ageism does exist, in nefarious ways, both subtle and overt. Academic research conducted so far has been inconclusive (and inadequate, IMHO) so the journals don't and can't jump on this issue with any great zeal. We as workers can't really muster any effort to combat ageism. (Just try mentioning "union" among a bunch of libertarian/republican programmers.)
Another area where we lack power: we have no control of our time! We're asked to work outrageous hours on a quarterly basis. It's our industry's not-so-secret scandal. Since a significant percentage of software projects are late, everybody has to work overtime two weeks before a deadline in the hopes of making it, and inevitably, everybody has to work overtime two weeks afterward (or much longer) because the deadline was missed. Usually this is due to bad software engineering (planning, sizing, estimation) early in the project. Why? Because deadlines are negotiated, not judiciously determined. Even then, most software managers are incapable of doing that because they aren't software engineers! I have an M.S. in Software Engineering, and I reported to a former news caster!
So after my sabbatical, am I going to get back into software development? Hard to say right now. With the tech economy as bad as it is, it's not as easy, for anybody, to get back in. For me that's okay. I've got some money saved, I'm going to compete in my first triathlon, and try my hand at the art (painting/writing/video production) that I've always wanted to do, but didn't because of my knack at computers.
So until we developers take the power we already have and focus it into bettering our condition, I'm going to develop and use all of my talents and have some fun in the bright sun.
it should be pointed out that Microsoft licensed XP's CD burning software from Roxio (makers of Easy CD Creator.)
unionize? Better pay, less hours, more rescept
A: No. Next question.
Nathan's blog
. . . with barely a year's experience after college, and being laid off in the middle of the tech recession. It took me more than half a year to find a new job, and it's government. Not that I'm whining; but I'd just like to point out that it's a bitch getting a job when everyone wants "5+ years experience in environment that came out last year" and all you have is basically nothing in experience. Do I know what I'm doing? Those who know me would generally say yes, but does that matter to these idiot MBAs?
Nathan's blog
How many resumes?
I don't think so. Until last week I was working as a freelance programmer for a large British utility. I had worked there for 4.5 years. My skills are C, C++, Pascal, OpenVMS, some Oracle and Tibco.
The reason for my dismissal was "mismatch of skills". However the company was being taken over.
I am now 53 years old. I have enjoyed programming since the 1970's, having worked on chip design software, printed circuit design and testing software as well as 3D modelling, artificial intelligence and telecoms.
Between 1992 and 1995 I was out of work because of a serious illness (there was also a recession in the UK), but I managed to find work continuously since then until now. Hopefully the assignment I have just finished will not be my last. I still have plenty of intellectual ability in me as well as motivation to succeed.
Except you have to be able to get Top Secret clearance, so if you ever surfed porn or posted on /., yer fooked lad.
Goobberupment, job, eh? Congrats, you just excluded 99.42% of the qualified people here...
Eh? How many resumes?
Under 15 total were submitted. Out of that, less than 5 had the qualifications needed. You want to know something? This proved my point.. there are a lot of jobs, otherwise I would have gotten a LOT MORE resume submissions.
Those that submitted I talked to directly.
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
It is NOT a Government job, it requires a Security Clearance. Seriously different.
It excludes people who committed felonies, have serious financial issues, drug issues, and are not a US Citizen.
99%? sad really if thats the case. I would expect maybe it would exclude 20-30% of the people.
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
Where are you looking?
.NET, J2EE, and Oracle you are not in demand, then you have serious blinders on.
Frankly, if you think that you have to know MS
I dont do "database programming", I dont do "Web programming" and I dont do Java programming. Why? Cause I choose not to, and I still have an outstanding job.
In fact, I do so much fun work.. like Interface to Surface Search Radars, Interface to GPS, Graphics, Data Links, Ethernet Links, build OWN Real Time Database, and other things.. I love it.
How many can say that when they wake up each morning?
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
I did not mean to sound confrontational. I was simply curious. Indeed, a truly depressed job market would yield more than a measly 5 qualified coders.
I am sorry if my frustration comes out at times. And now we have a thread going about how some company in chicago has cut pay by 50% for a month.
Frankly, if people think its so bad out there, form a union. Me, I like what I do and have no forgotten only lawyers and doctors make more and they deal with even more crap than we do.
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
Good grief! That sounds like my office. By my management's standards, I'm either fixing something or "doing nothing" most of the time.
And to think I went through Graduate School studying Comp. Sci. for that. I'm beginning to think that the need for people that know a Turing Machine from a blender is at a 50 year low.
It burns me that I can earn more money, and a little more respect, as a high school teacher in New England than I earn here, but its a job I kinda like. I could move to a real job market, but I need contacts there, so I have to live there, but I have to have a job there first. A Catch-22.
I'm hoping for a strong recovery so I can blow this heap before the freaking walls fall in here.
May the force be with you.