I don't know how many of you have used CDE, the only really standart DE for unix until KDE/GNOME (well, i guess openwindows and 4dwm. fine. the only one that didn't totally suck). I've used it a lot in HP-YUCKS.
It consists of a panel at the bottom of the screen with several icons/little menus and some buttons for different desktops, and you can put stuff like a load meter or a biff there. It's ugly, but there you have it. MS prolly ripped it off if anything for their taskbar thing w/menus, buttons (for applications) and little icons. CDE is reasonably wm-independent AFAIK (i've only used it w/mwm, suck).
So there's the origin: a panel, a set of applications (HP has a Motif mail client, text editor, etc etc), separate from the wm, all w/the same look-and-feel (ugly as nuts motif 1.2 on those HPs). The feeling is that the GNOME or KDE panel should provide some similar functionality. I haven't decided whether I'll keep the panel yet -- I like windowmaker's menus just fine...but I do love nifty panel apps almost as much as nifty dock apps. No reason you can't do w/out it tho, if you prefer a clean simple wm menu (i'm really an fvwm2 person, i like it dirt simple)
of KDE (which I like), you have to respect Miguel. You can tell where the other GNOME developers live by looking at the hours of their posts to the mailing list and their commits to CVS.
As far as anyone can tell from this evidence, Miguel doesn't ever sleep.
Linux actively destroys the diplomas this guy spent good money to buy. That wasn't very nice now was it:)
------------------- SCORES ------------------- The Server: Linux 1 NT 0
coming soon to pay per view: THE DESKTOP can MS's interface from 1995 stand up to the latest from all over the world? Can the debate between KDE and GNOME finally solve the real question: Which is better, C or C++? What the hell crazy name will Miguel come up with for GNOME 1.0?
Frankly i can't decide, i like them both. I figure I'll make a final decision on what's most key: games and coolness of themes.
I think slashdot serves up a half million pages a day to what, 50k, 100k (please up the number if i'm wrong:) users with a bloody freakin lot of perl and generated stuff.
On about the same hardware AFAIK.
And you can set up a site w/MySQL and SlashEngine pretty quick. A friend of mine once made a presentation on linux to a bunch of execs. He took a bare machine and had a web server up and running in 5 minutes flat.
That's actually very important: the pII/pIII are PentiumPro (weasel) cores. If we all think back to when PPro appeared, it was a bit scandalous -- it was slower at 16bit code than its predecessor, the Pentium.
Having used Intel's vtune, I can tell you that win95/98 has a _lot_ of 16 bit code still in there, and I can believe that win95 runs faster on the K6. Yet, for all its pathetic dogged slowness, NT is truly 32 bit (even if it's 32 bit crap:) and in fact manages to run _faster than 95_ on the pII/pIII (ppro core) systems.
If NT is faster than 95, Linux the HolyOS will really fly (which it does).
However, my Celery300a is in the mail. You can still find 'em if you look carefully. Ohbaby.
Seriously, this is cool. Maybe Sun will feel obligated to make their parts price competitive with Alpha (pretty much alone in the value Linux workstation world right now), which is good for all of us.
With a little luck I may be able to get a blazingly fast SparkELC! I'm cooking now!
For G2 for Linux, or at least a fix for the kernel 2.2 bugs w/RealPlayer 5.
Someone should start a project to write a free realstream player. It could actually be fast for a change!
Anyone know the Realplayer workaround under 2.2.x?
on
Linux 2.2.2 Released
·
· Score: 1
Alan Cox mentions on www.linux.org.uk that realplayer is not cool with the new sound stuff or something. In any case it doesn't work quite right. He says some people already have a workaround. I couldn't find where this was discussed -- does anybody know what the workaround is? Or do I have to go browse the kernel mailing list archives...
I was browsing the processor listings over at http://infopad.eecs.berkeley.edu/CIC/summary/local /. My k6-200 gets about a 6.5 int95 and a 3.5 fp95. Pretty poor, compared to a Pmmx-200. So here's what i'm wondering, and I mean raw FP, not just the 3DNow stuff:
How much better is the k6-2 in FP? I was under the impression the FPU was just a k6 clocked up appropriately. If the k6-3 is still the same FPU, with all due respect I'm not interested. Here's how I make the numbers
k6-200: int95 6.5 fp95 3.5 pII-400: int95 18 fp95 18 (some people say your milage may vary...perhaps by as much as 50% less) pIII-400: same k6-2? k6-3?
I have quite a number of friends with Celeron 450a's:) They're all very happy people.
Unfortunately I understand the celeron went out of production a week ago last Thursday. There may be a few places w/one or two left, buy'em while you can.
From what I've seen and heard (discounting unrelieable reports) Celeron366 will run at 464 or something but that's over I think an 83MHz bus, so the PCI is at 42MHz and no peripherals will work. The Celeron366 will not even POST at 550, don't bother:).
Really a shame Intel had to kill that one, here we were getting something for nothing. My @$$ overclockers played no part in their decision to pull the chip. Grr.
I don't claim every university is excellent. And I certainly think that with few exceptions the best US universities are private (which just may be the secret, since most other countries don't even have a private university system).
There are a hell of a lot of American state universities (at least 1 in each of 50 states), but most are at best mediocre, except perhaps in a few areas. There are still a couple of great state schools: UVA (go VA!, founded by TJ), UCBerkeley, UMichigan (aerospace), Georgia Tech. But the best ones are private.
BTW the best public school I have seen, and one of the best overall right up there with CMU, MIT, etc. is Technion, the Israel Institute of Technology. Where you should speak Russian to get anywhere.
If this isn't all hype, all the attention will surely bring someone in with some cash. The question is, will it be someone with the technology (lots of people suggest AMD. It would be farout) who can make this happen relatively quickly. (AMD is building a new fab in Dresden i think, i think it's even.18 u, get me if i'm wrong).
But this will still be a chip competing against much later revision Merced's than the initial ones. This won't appear for 2-3 years at _best_.
Anyone else notice Intel's initial chips suck? The first (was it klamath?) PII's were 66MHz frontside, the first pIII's don't have the new cache, the first Merced's aren't so hot either. Ohwell. Mmmmm, alpha.
BTW I'm not that impressed by anything I've seen from AMD. Yeah, their K6's run applications ok. But I have yet to see a k6 w/a good FPU. I'm greedy. I want it all. I want nice caches AND a nice FPU. Give me a celeron450a:). Maybe k7 will be good.
I recently heard a talk about NASA technology in the good old days.
Apollo went to the moon on a slide rule as backup.
There were some amusing situations. I think it was Skylab, had 2 machines duplicating all calculations. The first one that cought the other one in a difference turned it off -- hehe, no guarantee whether the right or wrong computer wins.
Hell, the original incarnation of the shuttle had --you guessed it--IBM 360's. And ferrite core RAM. Wow.
US Elementary and Secondary education does lag, but the best universities in the world are in the US.
MIT, CMU, CalTech, Berkely, Stanford, all the Ivies, zillions more. 'Course CMU's the best:)
It's no surprise there are a lot of foreign nationals who come here for university. My friend Mathilde est d'origine francaise and she agrees, US universities are far better and more rigorous.
"Diefendorff said the Russian data indicates the E2k chip -- fabricated in a.18-micron process - would run at 1.2 GHz. By contrast, Diefendorff estimated that the Merced processor, fabricated in the same process, would run at 800 MHz, three times slower."
WHAT? 1.2 GHz is 50% more than 800MHz.
It's reporting like this that makes me doubt the rest of this article.
First of all, it's not bloat. It's functionality. Strip RH (or Slackware or whatever) down to the features set of the early releases and it gets much smaller. What I consider a complete winNT install takes way more space -- because it includes OS, webserver, ftp server, and VC5 (the compiler, webserver, ftpserver, mailserver, etc are all free and bundled with a typical Linux distro). And upgrades to the Linux kernel don't count as bloat if the new one's faster!:)
Yes it's complex. Yes that's an issue. But M$ hasn't shown they know how to manage this any better (I don't see why they should be able to) -- I constantly fix MS idiocy on my friends' and relatives' computers as the machine completely dies or loses a modem or a HD or whatever by random chance. Ordinary users are lost on Win95 w/o a techie to coax the thing back into semi-workingness.
Yes, constant updates to Linux are an issue. So you skip the ones you don't need, i.e. I don't worry about apache updates cos I don't run apache now. The reason the updates are constant is cos the OS is _improving_ instead of stagnating. Only real nuts manage to get the absolute latest version of _everything_. BTW I think a good package manage (a la Debian, RH) makes things much easier but some still prefer compiling and installing their own tarballs.
When I first installed Slackware (many years ago) I didn't try it on my own, and I'm glad I didn't. I wouldn't want to try to figure out Linux w/o a guru available, but the distro's these days (with a few intentional exceptions) are very easy to set up and get working, eg. RH, SuSE, Caldera. I'm inclined to say the poor fellow who never got his Linux working took a poor approach to it. It's just not that hard. No it's not obvious -- so don't try it alone.
My redhat install takes 300megs. I consider that pretty tight considering how much garbage total I have on my computer:)
Four days after Dave asked for people interested in improving Linux hardware support to write more accelerated GL drivers in his mini-interview on happypenguin.org. What synchronicity. Here's to every video card we've got, including - Permidia2 - ATI RagePro - G200 - RivaTNT - i740 - and soon Voodoo3 all working in accelerated GL by the millenium!
Obviously, the one true way to version number is major.minor.revision, i.e. 0.6.2 or 2.2.1
You start with 0.something.something to indicate an alpha, and start incrementing logically. However, you don't _know_ how many alphas you will have. Just as you may not have 9 revisions before the next minor (eg Linux 2.1.129-zillion), you may not have a full set of minors before the next major (Linux 1.3 to 2.0).
When doing an alpha, you typically jump to 0.99 to indicate you have a near-1.0 product, i.e. has all the core functionality, but needs to be thoroughly tested/polished. It all makes perfect sense.
Obviously, the one true way to version number is .., i.e. 0.6.2 or 2.2.1
You start with 0.something.something to indicate an alpha, and start incrementing logically. However, you don't _know_ how many alphas you will have. Just as you may not have 9 revisions before the next minor (eg Linux 2.1.129-zillion), you may not have a full set of minors before the next major (Linux 1.3 to 2.0).
When doing an alpha, you typically jump to 0.99 to indicate you have a near-1.0 product, i.e. has all the core functionality, but needs to be thoroughly tested/polished. It all makes perfect sense.
IGF does say on their page that they are considering other operatings systems (ie Linux) as a possibility for next year, but that they think now almost everyone is Windoze.
I note that two games will run on Linux anyway, BFRIS (which has been on/. before) and Fire and Darkness.
And that's 2 finalists, out of only 15...I bet we'll see quite a few more supporting Linux in next year's contest.
I _will_ fix the Linux port. I _am_ working on it. I just got it compiling with egcs (req'd gcc2.8 bfore, whatapain). Fixed Unix server (i think). Glide is next. Fire and Darkness!
Slashdot Mirror
I don't know how many of you have used CDE, the only really standart DE for unix until KDE/GNOME (well, i guess openwindows and 4dwm. fine. the only one that didn't totally suck). I've used it a lot in HP-YUCKS.
It consists of a panel at the bottom of the screen with several icons/little menus and some buttons for different desktops, and you can put stuff like a load meter or a biff there. It's ugly, but there you have it. MS prolly ripped it off if anything for their taskbar thing w/menus, buttons (for applications) and little icons. CDE is reasonably wm-independent AFAIK (i've only used it w/mwm, suck).
So there's the origin: a panel, a set of applications (HP has a Motif mail client, text editor, etc etc), separate from the wm, all w/the same look-and-feel (ugly as nuts motif 1.2 on those HPs). The feeling is that the GNOME or KDE panel should provide some similar functionality. I haven't decided whether I'll keep the panel yet -- I like windowmaker's menus just fine...but I do love nifty panel apps almost as much as nifty dock apps. No reason you can't do w/out it tho, if you prefer a clean simple wm menu (i'm really an fvwm2 person, i like it dirt simple)
of KDE (which I like), you have to respect Miguel. You can tell where the other GNOME developers live by looking at the hours of their posts to the mailing list and their commits to CVS.
As far as anyone can tell from this evidence, Miguel doesn't ever sleep.
I saw at least one guy who signed "MSCE & CNE"
:)
That's "MicroSoft Certefied Engineer & Certified NetWare Engineer".
Linux actively destroys the diplomas this guy spent good money to buy. That wasn't very nice now was it
-------------------
SCORES
-------------------
The Server:
Linux 1 NT 0
coming soon to pay per view:
THE DESKTOP
can MS's interface from 1995 stand up to the latest from all over the world? Can the debate between KDE and GNOME finally solve the real question: Which is better, C or C++? What the hell crazy name will Miguel come up with for GNOME 1.0?
Frankly i can't decide, i like them both. I figure I'll make a final decision on what's most key: games and coolness of themes.
I think slashdot serves up a half million pages a day to what, 50k, 100k (please up the number if i'm wrong :) users with a bloody freakin lot of perl and generated stuff.
On about the same hardware AFAIK.
And you can set up a site w/MySQL and SlashEngine pretty quick. A friend of mine once made a presentation on linux to a bunch of execs. He took a bare machine and had a web server up and running in 5 minutes flat.
That's pretty far out. Yeah, I know it's not GPL. But hey, if you want it you can run Linux on your ultra :).
I think this is a big step forward -- and I bet there's a lot of stuff in the infamous Slowlaris that could use some outside eyes.
However, I personally have no intention of _ever_ under _any circumstances_ looking at a single line of Slowlaris source. Yeaahh! yuck.
That's actually very important: the pII/pIII are PentiumPro (weasel) cores. If we all think back to when PPro appeared, it was a bit scandalous -- it was slower at 16bit code than its predecessor, the Pentium.
:) and in fact manages to run _faster than 95_ on the pII/pIII (ppro core) systems.
Having used Intel's vtune, I can tell you that win95/98 has a _lot_ of 16 bit code still in there, and I can believe that win95 runs faster on the K6. Yet, for all its pathetic dogged slowness, NT is truly 32 bit (even if it's 32 bit crap
If NT is faster than 95, Linux the HolyOS will really fly (which it does).
However, my Celery300a is in the mail. You can still find 'em if you look carefully. Ohbaby.
Like 2.7 to 7 might be how to reach Linux 5.
Seriously, this is cool. Maybe Sun will feel obligated to make their parts price competitive with Alpha (pretty much alone in the value Linux workstation world right now), which is good for all of us.
With a little luck I may be able to get a blazingly fast SparkELC! I'm cooking now!
For G2 for Linux, or at least a fix for the kernel 2.2 bugs w/RealPlayer 5.
Someone should start a project to write a free realstream player. It could actually be fast for a change!
Alan Cox mentions on www.linux.org.uk that realplayer is not cool with the new sound stuff or something. In any case it doesn't work quite right. He says some people already have a workaround. I couldn't find where this was discussed -- does anybody know what the workaround is? Or do I have to go browse the kernel mailing list archives...
I was browsing the processor listings over at http://infopad.eecs.berkeley.edu/CIC/summary/local /. My k6-200 gets about a 6.5 int95 and a 3.5 fp95. Pretty poor, compared to a Pmmx-200. So here's what i'm wondering, and I mean raw FP, not just the 3DNow stuff:
How much better is the k6-2 in FP? I was under the impression the FPU was just a k6 clocked up appropriately. If the k6-3 is still the same FPU, with all due respect I'm not interested. Here's how I make the numbers
k6-200: int95 6.5 fp95 3.5
pII-400: int95 18 fp95 18
(some people say your milage may vary...perhaps by as much as 50% less)
pIII-400: same
k6-2? k6-3?
I'd appreciate if someone could fill this in
I love seeing /.ers get articles in the mainstream media :)
I have quite a number of friends with Celeron 450a's :) They're all very happy people.
:).
Unfortunately I understand the celeron went out of production a week ago last Thursday. There may be a few places w/one or two left, buy'em while you can.
From what I've seen and heard (discounting unrelieable reports) Celeron366 will run at 464 or something but that's over I think an 83MHz bus, so the PCI is at 42MHz and no peripherals will work. The Celeron366 will not even POST at 550, don't bother
Really a shame Intel had to kill that one, here we were getting something for nothing. My @$$ overclockers played no part in their decision to pull the chip. Grr.
I don't claim every university is excellent. And I certainly think that with few exceptions the best US universities are private (which just may be the secret, since most other countries don't even have a private university system).
There are a hell of a lot of American state universities (at least 1 in each of 50 states), but most are at best mediocre, except perhaps in a few areas. There are still a couple of great state schools: UVA (go VA!, founded by TJ), UCBerkeley, UMichigan (aerospace), Georgia Tech. But the best ones are private.
BTW the best public school I have seen, and one of the best overall right up there with CMU, MIT, etc. is Technion, the Israel Institute of Technology. Where you should speak Russian to get anywhere.
If this isn't all hype, all the attention will surely bring someone in with some cash. The question is, will it be someone with the technology (lots of people suggest AMD. It would be farout) who can make this happen relatively quickly. (AMD is building a new fab in Dresden i think, i think it's even .18 u, get me if i'm wrong).
:). Maybe k7 will be good.
But this will still be a chip competing against much later revision Merced's than the initial ones. This won't appear for 2-3 years at _best_.
Anyone else notice Intel's initial chips suck? The first (was it klamath?) PII's were 66MHz frontside, the first pIII's don't have the new cache, the first Merced's aren't so hot either. Ohwell. Mmmmm, alpha.
BTW I'm not that impressed by anything I've seen from AMD. Yeah, their K6's run applications ok. But I have yet to see a k6 w/a good FPU. I'm greedy. I want it all. I want nice caches AND a nice FPU. Give me a celeron450a
I recently heard a talk about NASA technology in the good old days.
Apollo went to the moon on a slide rule as backup.
There were some amusing situations. I think it was Skylab, had 2 machines duplicating all calculations. The first one that cought the other one in a difference turned it off -- hehe, no guarantee whether the right or wrong computer wins.
Hell, the original incarnation of the shuttle had --you guessed it--IBM 360's. And ferrite core RAM. Wow.
US Elementary and Secondary education does lag, but the best universities in the world are in the US.
:)
MIT, CMU, CalTech, Berkely, Stanford, all the Ivies, zillions more. 'Course CMU's the best
It's no surprise there are a lot of foreign nationals who come here for university. My friend Mathilde est d'origine francaise and she agrees, US universities are far better and more rigorous.
"Diefendorff said the Russian data indicates the .18-micron process
E2k chip -- fabricated in a
- would run at 1.2 GHz. By contrast, Diefendorff
estimated that the Merced processor, fabricated
in the same process, would run at 800 MHz, three times slower."
WHAT? 1.2 GHz is 50% more than 800MHz.
It's reporting like this that makes me doubt the rest of this article.
Cum grano salis, friends.
Paraphrasing: ...is distributed under the GNU GPL, so may be distributed freely but not modified...
What the fsck? Infoworld needs to check their lisencing credentials...
First of all, it's not bloat. It's functionality. Strip RH (or Slackware or whatever) down to the features set of the early releases and it gets much smaller. What I consider a complete winNT install takes way more space -- because it includes OS, webserver, ftp server, and VC5 (the compiler, webserver, ftpserver, mailserver, etc are all free and bundled with a typical Linux distro). And upgrades to the Linux kernel don't count as bloat if the new one's faster! :)
:)
Yes it's complex. Yes that's an issue. But M$ hasn't shown they know how to manage this any better (I don't see why they should be able to) -- I constantly fix MS idiocy on my friends' and relatives' computers as the machine completely dies or loses a modem or a HD or whatever by random chance. Ordinary users are lost on Win95 w/o a techie to coax the thing back into semi-workingness.
Yes, constant updates to Linux are an issue. So you skip the ones you don't need, i.e. I don't worry about apache updates cos I don't run apache now. The reason the updates are constant is cos the OS is _improving_ instead of stagnating. Only real nuts manage to get the absolute latest version of _everything_. BTW I think a good package manage (a la Debian, RH) makes things much easier but some still prefer compiling and installing their own tarballs.
When I first installed Slackware (many years ago) I didn't try it on my own, and I'm glad I didn't. I wouldn't want to try to figure out Linux w/o a guru available, but the distro's these days (with a few intentional exceptions) are very easy to set up and get working, eg. RH, SuSE, Caldera. I'm inclined to say the poor fellow who never got his Linux working took a poor approach to it. It's just not that hard. No it's not obvious -- so don't try it alone.
My redhat install takes 300megs. I consider that pretty tight considering how much garbage total I have on my computer
Four days after Dave asked for people interested in improving Linux hardware support to write more accelerated GL drivers in his mini-interview on happypenguin.org. What synchronicity. Here's to every video card we've got, including - Permidia2 - ATI RagePro - G200 - RivaTNT - i740 - and soon Voodoo3 all working in accelerated GL by the millenium!
Obviously, the one true way to version number is
major.minor.revision, i.e. 0.6.2 or 2.2.1
You start with 0.something.something to indicate an alpha, and start incrementing logically. However, you don't _know_ how many alphas you will have. Just as you may not have 9 revisions before the next minor (eg Linux 2.1.129-zillion), you may not have a full set of minors before the next major (Linux 1.3 to 2.0).
When doing an alpha, you typically jump to 0.99 to indicate you have a near-1.0 product, i.e. has all the core functionality, but needs to be thoroughly tested/polished. It all makes perfect sense.
Obviously, the one true way to version number is
.., i.e. 0.6.2 or 2.2.1
You start with 0.something.something to indicate an alpha, and start incrementing logically. However, you don't _know_ how many alphas you will have. Just as you may not have 9 revisions before the next minor (eg Linux 2.1.129-zillion), you may not have a full set of minors before the next major (Linux 1.3 to 2.0).
When doing an alpha, you typically jump to 0.99 to indicate you have a near-1.0 product, i.e. has all the core functionality, but needs to be thoroughly tested/polished. It all makes perfect sense.
I've never been to GDC, but E3 actually gave us special "underage exhibitor" passes.
I doubt anyone at GDC will care. It's for insurance reasons, and that they don't want antsy 2-year olds.
IGF does say on their page that they are considering other operatings systems (ie Linux) as a possibility for next year, but that they think now almost everyone is Windoze.
/. before) and Fire and Darkness.
I note that two games will run on Linux anyway, BFRIS (which has been on
And that's 2 finalists, out of only 15...I bet we'll see quite a few more supporting Linux in next year's contest.
I _will_ fix the Linux port. I _am_ working on it. I just got it compiling with egcs (req'd gcc2.8 bfore, whatapain). Fixed Unix server (i think). Glide is next. Fire and Darkness!