2GB RAM limits and/3GB hacks in Windows have reached their limit for a lot of server uses. When doing VM style systems or large databases...
How does Windows complete? To get 'official support' from Microsoft for more than 2GB of RAM you have to purchase the very expensive Server Enterprise Edition. We aren't talking $500 (Windows 2000 Server) vs. free, we are talking $1,500 vs free.
64-bit Windows is still 'beta'... I think Microsoft has already let the door open... They were ahead on Itanium but now behind on the AMD.
Giving up the 64-bit Alpha might proove to be the mistake that Microsoft made that lead to this...
Just some thoughts.
Re:Stability determined by drivers and hardware
on
Is Windows Worth $45?
·
· Score: 1
I agree with you on one level... but it is almost a side-effect of the open source:)
Open source driver developers always seem to be people other than the hardware mfg. They tend to make a driver as generic as possible and deal with all versions of the chipset and added changes.
Closed-source OS like Windows really suffers when an OEM licenses hardware but doesn't release drivers. It is really bad when one of them wants to hide the original chipset and changes things so that the driver doesn't work.
One example: The Orinoco 802.11b driver from Lucent. Dell licensed this with the TrueMobile 1150 PCMCIA card. But Dell doesn't offer the latest firmware (v8.72) and you have to hack the Orinoco binary to get it to update the Dell card. See this site. I hate that crap, and this is the reason that Open Source really has an advantage when a product is obsolete or orphaned by the seller.
Stability determined by drivers and hardware
on
Is Windows Worth $45?
·
· Score: 3, Insightful
I agree what what you say! And Microsoft by far as to support the largest combination of drivers and hardware... so of course they have the most problems.
I think everyone wants but does not realize that modern OS is not 'hardware proof'. They don't test drivers and hardware, they just assume they work... and fail badly when they don't. FreeBSD 4.9, Redhat Linux 9, Windows XP -- all the same. In some respects, Windows XP is actually doing more to adress the problem - the crash reporting component helps Microsoft narrow down which 'real world combinations' are problem. I wish they were more in sharing the results... but that is more a 'corporate America' problem than anything...
If you want, you can contact me off-Slashdot... I'm at Stephen@IPCoast.com - BTW, we are hiring at cheap rates for starters. Great at SQL, Perl, or C#? JObs@IPcoast.com
Anyway - I can give you access to live systems I have running FreeBSD 4.9 and Windows 2000... both are unstable.
My point? The computer industry as a whole is not mature. OpenBSD is dog slow and horrible for applicaitons as it crashes if you do do many fork() calls or push the systme too hard.... but it makes a great firewall (pf is awesome, we use it to protect Windows 2000).
I mean... too many people here on Slashdot are hung up on Microsoft... not realizing that ALL LOF US have problems! Even if things are 30% better... in 5 years what difference will 30% make?!?! we are talking major changes still gong on.
Honestly, Apple is great because they show that controlling the hardware matters. (Because of Customers...) But they seem destined to be only 5% or less... and it hasn't changed since 1984 and likely won't change in the next 10 years. If I thought market share would go to 20%... but they deserve it. Just that hardware invoation hasn't slowed down any more than software... and putting the two together is going to cause price problems...
I really believe open source has a real edge on drivers... because the HW Mfg's can study dozens of source examples for ideas.
WIndows (and OS/2) really suffers from closed source drivers. The SDK examples are good starting, but the lessons learned 'in the real world' in terms of specific hacks for certain motherboards/chipsets never seems to make it back to the SDK...
Look at a driver like the Realtek Ethernet on Linux... it is a pefect example of something that shows the 'real world' side in terms of slight differences on motherboards and with the Realtek chips themselves.
Last friday I saw win 2000 server restart on our server for no reason.
Are you using logic here man? There IS A REASON this system crashed. Computers are not items with feelings...
Faulty drivers, faulty hardware are most causes of things that 'seem random'. In most cases, a OS crash itself (Windows 2000) should be reproduced if you can figure out what sequence of events lead to it...
Pick on grammer and don't even respond to my _main point_.
Microsoft has a much larger customer base. I think they long ago (Windows ME timeframe) decided that each release was going to have a longer lifespan.
Your Apple user also tends to have a much narrow range of hardware budget and size of computers. I bet the average Apple user spends 2x as much and has twice the quality of hardware.
In my orignal post, I didn't say just _Windows_ I made the point that _hardware_ and _hardware drivers_. Even third-party drivers like Norton Anti-virus can make a big difference in system stability - and they aren't hardware drivers!
Also consider that most people who use Windows get whatever OEM's put on them. Frankly, most OEM's put crap on them and tweaks to the default settings... or uncertified drivers to boost performance. Microsoft gets all the blame by the end user.
Personally, I reformat and load from scratch... old skool. I don't want three bands of computers all having their own crappy DLL's and anti-virus releaes.
I would say that Microsoft has a lot larger userbase... so they draw their release schedule out.
Upgrading 1,000,000 customers vs. 80,000,000 - your support and documentation has to be that much better.
Believe it or not, I think Windows 2000 / Windows XP is as stable as linux / Freebsd. I didn't say better, I didn't say more secure... but I think the stablish issue is mute. considering how much more crappy hardware and hardware drivers windows supports - of course more people are going ot have crashes. But on the 10,000 combinations of _good hardware and drivers_ it works fine.
Remember kids, only takes one driver to lockup the PCI bus (IRQ / DMA / etc). I've seen bad USB drivers bring down Linux/FreeBSD/OpenBSD/windows XP - all latest versions with patches.
But think of it it another way: What if instead of a RPM / binary server providing the package - it could built it on demand? And caching schemes could be used... so common packages aren't built allt he times. And ways to build local mirrors for repeat installs.
This type of binary modularity could be the kind of thing that really differs Linux / Open from Microsoft / Apple style of "one binary fits all" packaging.
The long filenames could easily be managed by computers. That is what they are good at, keeping names stored / organized for you:) it isn't like you do all this by hand fetching...
Bud strikes me as Starbucks. They sell the 'bitter taste' - as it becomes adictive. Regardless if it is 'good', it is a unique flavor that you can only get there... or at least you know you will get the stuff whereever you go.
It is the best selling beer in the world for a reason...
I would say that traditionally the focus has been on reading or writing a file.
For a single-user system, deleting a file was much more risk in the past than a virus.
I think the _intention_ of Outlook was to allow it to be easy to run a EXE. Like it or not, I don't think it was an accident. E-mail came from corporate systems - back in the days when training was more an issue (ease of use) than security.
Look, things change. Once we get the open vs. run thing fixed - something else will come up:)
Read this guy's reply.
Passwords + keys are nothing more than difficult obscurity.
Obscurity is the basis of all security, just that "hidden door only" is not good enough. Good security is multiple levels.
Makes sense, you have a day job and want a new option... Ok... then why did you post as AC?
P.S. I need a good FreeBSD sysadmin + Perl guy. OpenBSD OK too (we have both). $12/hour pay range, but established company (since 1999) and we are making a profit. Send e-mail to Jobs@IPCoast.com if interested. Prefer person in Washington, Oregon, or Arizona.
since so many applications are worthless, the hiring person must throw them away.... so you should increase your volume of sending it out knowing that most are going in trash.
Sounds like the SPAM problem to me. to a point where those doing the hiring know that 95% of the people didn't even take the time to find out if the job is one they would fit before sending in their resume.
There are REASONS companies ask for specific things in job postings. I know I've gotten responses from people who clearly have no idea what they are responding to.
The whole assumption is that there's something wrong with the low-layers of NT, and that's far from proven anywhere but bizarro slashbot universe.
Agreed. There are penty of reasons to hate Microsoft, but Windows 2000 was a mature OS and is great as a hosting platform for some purposes. As an OS goes, it is as good.
Honestly, there are people in our industry who just blame Microsoft for everything. Slashdot seems full of them.
Have you fools considered that maybe just maybe the industry as a whole has problems? My freebsd 4.9 + Windows 2000 server both crash if a Intel network driver faults Yep, had them both do it for different reasons with same results. Linux too with other drivers.
Windows 2000 Server was only $500. Considering mid-grade server is $4000 - what difference does $500 make over a 2 year server lifespan?
Honestly, things like device drivers - every damn video card having differnt way of doing thigs - that have wasted more man-years of user productivity than anything. Yha, it is great to have those 50% performance gains year after year - but it is the root of a lot of the instability that gets blamed on computers.
Because these "coders" know little to nothing about security, I spend hours in meeting trying to drill into them why the firewall is in their best interest, and why they should be using different ports for each protocol.
And we still have a long way to go. Some will say the port battle is over. Most common is port 80 - and if developers don't understand how their code and user interaction needs to be secure - the protocol is least of your worry.
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2GB RAM limits and /3GB hacks in Windows have reached their limit for a lot of server uses. When doing VM style systems or large databases...
How does Windows complete? To get 'official support' from Microsoft for more than 2GB of RAM you have to purchase the very expensive Server Enterprise Edition. We aren't talking $500 (Windows 2000 Server) vs. free, we are talking $1,500 vs free.
64-bit Windows is still 'beta'... I think Microsoft has already let the door open... They were ahead on Itanium but now behind on the AMD.
Giving up the 64-bit Alpha might proove to be the mistake that Microsoft made that lead to this...
Just some thoughts.
I agree with you on one level... but it is almost a side-effect of the open source :)
Open source driver developers always seem to be people other than the hardware mfg. They tend to make a driver as generic as possible and deal with all versions of the chipset and added changes.
Closed-source OS like Windows really suffers when an OEM licenses hardware but doesn't release drivers. It is really bad when one of them wants to hide the original chipset and changes things so that the driver doesn't work.
One example: The Orinoco 802.11b driver from Lucent. Dell licensed this with the TrueMobile 1150 PCMCIA card. But Dell doesn't offer the latest firmware (v8.72) and you have to hack the Orinoco binary to get it to update the Dell card. See this site. I hate that crap, and this is the reason that Open Source really has an advantage when a product is obsolete or orphaned by the seller.
I agree what what you say! And Microsoft by far as to support the largest combination of drivers and hardware... so of course they have the most problems.
I think everyone wants but does not realize that modern OS is not 'hardware proof'. They don't test drivers and hardware, they just assume they work... and fail badly when they don't. FreeBSD 4.9, Redhat Linux 9, Windows XP -- all the same. In some respects, Windows XP is actually doing more to adress the problem - the crash reporting component helps Microsoft narrow down which 'real world combinations' are problem. I wish they were more in sharing the results... but that is more a 'corporate America' problem than anything...
If you want, you can contact me off-Slashdot... I'm at Stephen@IPCoast.com - BTW, we are hiring at cheap rates for starters. Great at SQL, Perl, or C#? JObs@IPcoast.com
:)
Anyway - I can give you access to live systems I have running FreeBSD 4.9 and Windows 2000... both are unstable.
My point? The computer industry as a whole is not mature. OpenBSD is dog slow and horrible for applicaitons as it crashes if you do do many fork() calls or push the systme too hard.... but it makes a great firewall (pf is awesome, we use it to protect Windows 2000).
I mean... too many people here on Slashdot are hung up on Microsoft... not realizing that ALL LOF US have problems! Even if things are 30% better... in 5 years what difference will 30% make?!?! we are talking major changes still gong on.
Honestly, Apple is great because they show that controlling the hardware matters. (Because of Customers...) But they seem destined to be only 5% or less... and it hasn't changed since 1984 and likely won't change in the next 10 years. If I thought market share would go to 20%... but they deserve it. Just that hardware invoation hasn't slowed down any more than software... and putting the two together is going to cause price problems...
Last response
I really believe open source has a real edge on drivers... because the HW Mfg's can study dozens of source examples for ideas.
WIndows (and OS/2) really suffers from closed source drivers. The SDK examples are good starting, but the lessons learned 'in the real world' in terms of specific hacks for certain motherboards/chipsets never seems to make it back to the SDK...
Look at a driver like the Realtek Ethernet on Linux... it is a pefect example of something that shows the 'real world' side in terms of slight differences on motherboards and with the Realtek chips themselves.
Last friday I saw win 2000 server restart on our server for no reason.
Are you using logic here man? There IS A REASON this system crashed. Computers are not items with feelings...
Faulty drivers, faulty hardware are most causes of things that 'seem random'. In most cases, a OS crash itself (Windows 2000) should be reproduced if you can figure out what sequence of events lead to it...
Humm... A 'mute' point is one not spoken... it stil actually works
Pick on grammer and don't even respond to my _main point_.
Microsoft has a much larger customer base. I think they long ago (Windows ME timeframe) decided that each release was going to have a longer lifespan.
Your Apple user also tends to have a much narrow range of hardware budget and size of computers. I bet the average Apple user spends 2x as much and has twice the quality of hardware.
Exactly!
In my orignal post, I didn't say just _Windows_ I made the point that _hardware_ and _hardware drivers_. Even third-party drivers like Norton Anti-virus can make a big difference in system stability - and they aren't hardware drivers!
Also consider that most people who use Windows get whatever OEM's put on them. Frankly, most OEM's put crap on them and tweaks to the default settings... or uncertified drivers to boost performance. Microsoft gets all the blame by the end user.
Personally, I reformat and load from scratch... old skool. I don't want three bands of computers all having their own crappy DLL's and anti-virus releaes.
I would say that Microsoft has a lot larger userbase... so they draw their release schedule out.
Upgrading 1,000,000 customers vs. 80,000,000 - your support and documentation has to be that much better.
Believe it or not, I think Windows 2000 / Windows XP is as stable as linux / Freebsd. I didn't say better, I didn't say more secure... but I think the stablish issue is mute. considering how much more crappy hardware and hardware drivers windows supports - of course more people are going ot have crashes. But on the 10,000 combinations of _good hardware and drivers_ it works fine.
Remember kids, only takes one driver to lockup the PCI bus (IRQ / DMA / etc). I've seen bad USB drivers bring down Linux/FreeBSD/OpenBSD/windows XP - all latest versions with patches.
Your post makes sense on one level...
:) it isn't like you do all this by hand fetching...
But think of it it another way: What if instead of a RPM / binary server providing the package - it could built it on demand? And caching schemes could be used... so common packages aren't built allt he times. And ways to build local mirrors for repeat installs.
This type of binary modularity could be the kind of thing that really differs Linux / Open from Microsoft / Apple style of "one binary fits all" packaging.
The long filenames could easily be managed by computers. That is what they are good at, keeping names stored / organized for you
Bud strikes me as Starbucks. They sell the 'bitter taste' - as it becomes adictive. Regardless if it is 'good', it is a unique flavor that you can only get there... or at least you know you will get the stuff whereever you go.
It is the best selling beer in the world for a reason...
Comment:
:)
I would say that traditionally the focus has been on reading or writing a file.
For a single-user system, deleting a file was much more risk in the past than a virus.
I think the _intention_ of Outlook was to allow it to be easy to run a EXE. Like it or not, I don't think it was an accident. E-mail came from corporate systems - back in the days when training was more an issue (ease of use) than security.
Look, things change. Once we get the open vs. run thing fixed - something else will come up
Ok, but you are overlooking old bills, and upgrade costs to older machines.
Read this guy's reply.
Passwords + keys are nothing more than difficult obscurity.
Obscurity is the basis of all security, just that "hidden door only" is not good enough. Good security is multiple levels.
Makes sense, you have a day job and want a new option... Ok... then why did you post as AC?
P.S. I need a good FreeBSD sysadmin + Perl guy. OpenBSD OK too (we have both). $12/hour pay range, but established company (since 1999) and we are making a profit. Send e-mail to Jobs@IPCoast.com if interested. Prefer person in Washington, Oregon, or Arizona.
Humm... think about what you just said.
since so many applications are worthless, the hiring person must throw them away.... so you should increase your volume of sending it out knowing that most are going in trash.
Sounds like the SPAM problem to me. to a point where those doing the hiring know that 95% of the people didn't even take the time to find out if the job is one they would fit before sending in their resume.
There are REASONS companies ask for specific things in job postings. I know I've gotten responses from people who clearly have no idea what they are responding to.
"Inside Sales" are corporate term for selling software over the phone or email. In other words, it is a desk job selling software license.
Given the "IP Property" - it is like a job opening to sell the $699 Linux license over the phone.
"Outside sales" = salesman who comes to your office and tries to sell you software.
I might be able to help you. Drop me a letter at Stephen@RoundSparrow.com if you read this.
Boy, jump on the bandwagon! People said the same thing about IBM in 1985. It was popular then too.
Agreed. There are penty of reasons to hate Microsoft, but Windows 2000 was a mature OS and is great as a hosting platform for some purposes. As an OS goes, it is as good.
Honestly, there are people in our industry who just blame Microsoft for everything. Slashdot seems full of them.
Have you fools considered that maybe just maybe the industry as a whole has problems? My freebsd 4.9 + Windows 2000 server both crash if a Intel network driver faults Yep, had them both do it for different reasons with same results. Linux too with other drivers.
Windows 2000 Server was only $500. Considering mid-grade server is $4000 - what difference does $500 make over a 2 year server lifespan?
Honestly, things like device drivers - every damn video card having differnt way of doing thigs - that have wasted more man-years of user productivity than anything. Yha, it is great to have those 50% performance gains year after year - but it is the root of a lot of the instability that gets blamed on computers.
MSI makes a line of them.
And we still have a long way to go. Some will say the port battle is over. Most common is port 80 - and if developers don't understand how their code and user interaction needs to be secure - the protocol is least of your worry.
Hear hear! Focus on the problem, don't throw baby out with the wawa.
Why can't a doctor use text msg and vibrating phone?! Modern text msg technology can get a confirmation reply, etc.