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Red Hat to Release Enhanced-Security Linux

Klatoo55 writes "According to an article by Techweb, Red Hat will release Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4.0, which includes support for Security-Enhanced Linux, in 2005. Red Hat has been running this system with a published IP address asking for hackers to try to break the security. The last version was defeated within 45 seconds, but this new version (apparently to be the policy for the next Fedora) has yet to be cracked."

326 comments

  1. Security Enhanced Sure! But... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I think we can bring that baby down without a hack.

    What say you slashdot?

    1. Re:Security Enhanced Sure! But... by n0dez · · Score: 1

      I think that everything could be hacked... the point is how long does it gonna take you?

    2. Re:Security Enhanced Sure! But... by t0ny · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But Red Hat's point is that somebody can bring down Slashdot, with a hack. And, were it a race, I dont think /. could bring them down in 45 seconds.

      --

      Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.

    3. Re:Security Enhanced Sure! But... by dtfinch · · Score: 3, Informative

      I wouldn't say everything, at least when the hacking has to be done over a network. The chance of having a vulnerability increases with the complexity of the program and the functionality it exposes. But some programs written with security and minimalism in mind have faired very well against hacking attempts.

      qmail security guarantee

      SELinux I've heard adds finer grained security features to limit each program's access to exactly what it needs, on top of the user level security, to further limit the damage that can be done by breaking a single program.

    4. Re:Security Enhanced Sure! But... by eWarz · · Score: 1

      you guys SOOO didn't get the joke :)

    5. Re:Security Enhanced Sure! But... by really? · · Score: 1

      If you had _your_ server go up in smoke due to a nice slashdotting you wouldn't think it's a joke either. :-)

      --

      "Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are the dead." A. Huxley
    6. Re:Security Enhanced Sure! But... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anything can be hacked. Even living cells. It's the spirit of human exploration. If there is something which can not be hacked then you have found the limits of science and human adventure.

  2. I wonder how the last system was defeated? by Snake_Plisken · · Score: 5, Funny

    45 seconds? Sounds liek someone yanked the power cord out of the boxen to do it that fast...

    --

    Eat recycled food - it's good for the environment, and OK for you.
    1. Re:I wonder how the last system was defeated? by Sexy+Bern · · Score: 3, Funny

      But is that 45 seconds on the battlefield or 45 seconds at medium-to-long-range targets?

    2. Re:I wonder how the last system was defeated? by t0ny · · Score: 0, Flamebait
      Wow, if you listen to the Slashdot crowd, Linux 1.0 is nearly impenetrable, security-wise.

      Too bad they cant mod down that "45 second" article; Im sure they really would like to suppress it.

      --

      Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.

    3. Re:I wonder how the last system was defeated? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I notice you're posting logged in.

      Doesn't that make you, by definition part of the "Slashdot crowd"?

    4. Re:I wonder how the last system was defeated? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      45 seconds? Sounds liek someone yanked the power cord out of the boxen to do it that fast...

      If you must, must, say "boxen", could you at least use it solely as a plural? The singular of "boxen" (again, if you must) is "box".

      Excuse me -- now I have to go flame .

    5. Re:I wonder how the last system was defeated? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, if you listen to the Slashdot crowd, Linux 1.0 is nearly impenetrable, security-wise.

      Huh? I'm a member of the "Slashdot crowd" and I've got an old copy of slackware here. It's not 1.0, but it's not much older than that. I have all the source code to it and I can assure you that it not even close to "impenetrable, security-wise". Fortunately, the source was available, making it easy for problems that turned up to be quickly identified, fixed, and patches distributed, unlike many unsecured proprietary operating systems available.

      Perhaps what you meant to point out was how, if you listen to the Slashdot crowd, open security models are superior to proprietary models that rely on obscurity for their security rather than peer review and public analysis of the strength of their security.

    6. Re:I wonder how the last system was defeated? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Wow, if you listen to the Slashdot crowd, Linux 1.0 is nearly impenetrable, security-wise.

      You're an idiot. It's common knowledge, especially with the Slashdot crowd, that early Linux versions were easy to hack.

      Hell, I got so much root back then (though a lot of that was thanks to SunOS, not just Linux).

    7. Re:I wonder how the last system was defeated? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Offtopic - no wonder. Redhat is such a superlame distro. I tried to install Fedora today. Gave up after 8 hours of getting variably far and then encountering some random error (file corrupt/cd overheated/wrong packed transmitted). Redhat always terminates the installation irreparably at that point with no option to retry. Do you know how frustrating it is to get an installation to 90% and then have it terminate because the 'gnu mime bindings' weren't installed? Duh. Suckers.

      Oh, yeah - before I forget. Guess what you have to do when it crashes again? Right, type everything right from the start, there is no way to save setup settings.

    8. Re:I wonder how the last system was defeated? by BlackbyPubicDemand · · Score: 1

      It took some hacker 45 seconds to defeat the system. I wonder how long it will take the Microsoft PR department to tom-tom this piece of information in order to 'prove' its claim that Windows is more secure.

      I can already visualize the headline (MS Sponsored, of course):

      "Redhat CTO accepts that it took hackers a mere 45 seconds to take down a secure Linux system"

      Cheers,
      Dhar
      sumitdhar.blogspot.com

      --

      --
      All Rights Reserved. All Wrongs Avenged!
    9. Re:I wonder how the last system was defeated? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that would be fair for MS to make such a claim. After all, people here blasted MS when that worm hit, exploiting unpatched systems. Nevermind MS had a patch out months in advance fixing the problem.

  3. 45 Seconds?!?! by Gunfighter · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Holy smokes!! If it only took 45 seconds to crack it the last time around, I'd venture to say they overlooked a MAJOR security hole. This one has yet to be cracked; but if they overlooked a major one before, what are the chances that there are several obscure security vulnerabilites they overlooked this time?

    --
    -- Stu

    /. ID under 2,000. I feel old now.
    1. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by c_oflynn · · Score: 3, Informative

      Its not so bad - the earlier version wasn't designed to be as secure, and this was 1999!! From the article:

      Tiemann outlined an instance of how SE Linux is more secure than traditional Linux in his EclipseCon keynote Wednesday. He said that in a security test on a previous version of Red Hat Linux in 1999, it took only 45 seconds for a hacker to break into the system. A recent test on a version of Linux running SE Linux as its security policy still has yet to be cracked, even though the IP address of the system was published to would-be hackers and the root had no IP address.

    2. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the contrary, it was probably an extremely obscure hack, known by few. Which is why it was still a vulnerability.

    3. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by Knuckles · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the root had no IP address

      What's that supposed to mean?

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    4. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The 45-second-hack was for the last version of Red Hat Enterprise Linux, not the last version of Security Enhanced Linux. The contrast is to show how much SELinux improves things.

      Of course, that doesn't rule out a bad implementation in RedHat's SELinux-based project.

    5. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by Gunfighter · · Score: 1

      If they try hard enough, I'm sure they'll be able to find some way to screw it up. I think I'll stick with something a little more minimalist.

      --
      -- Stu

      /. ID under 2,000. I feel old now.
    6. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Last time I checked, 45 seconds at 1 GHz gives your hacking script 45 billion cycles to crack the system. Looks plentiful to me.

    7. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by daemonslayer · · Score: 2, Funny
      wasn't designed to be as secure

      It sounds like it was designed to be insecure...

    8. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by DAldredge · · Score: 4, Funny

      It means the people that write tech articles are, for the most part, idiots.

    9. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by Gunfighter · · Score: 1

      I was thinking more along the lines of via remote access w/ a portscanner and whatnot. I guess I'm just used to seeing Nessus run and taking friggin forever to scan a host over my cable modem (no... I don't break into the systems, I just scan them and sell the results ;).

      --
      -- Stu

      /. ID under 2,000. I feel old now.
    10. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by petabyte · · Score: 1

      Gentoo has their own experimental install routine to use SELinux as well. The link is here.

    11. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by mackman · · Score: 4, Funny

      I think this time they changed the default root password to something better than "root".

    12. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by Bobdoer · · Score: 1

      It wasn't some obscure bug. Root's password was 7331.

    13. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by Tim+C · · Score: 4, Funny

      I suspect that they're trying to say "the root account had no password", but typoed it rather spectacularly.

    14. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by dagnabit · · Score: 4, Funny

      I use my luggage combination - 12345.

    15. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by toast0 · · Score: 1

      Why would they leave remote root logins enabled? geez

    16. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      Minimalist? You need X to run links!!!

      (and using USE flags doesn't help either as on the next emerge world it'll pull in all the crap you told it you didn't want next time...)

    17. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by sdibb · · Score: 1

      I prefer my root password to just be null. It's a huge timesaver!

    18. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That doesn't really make sense either, unless you were joking, since it wouldn't be too difficult to "crack" and machine with no root password.

    19. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by axxackall · · Score: 1

      No, you don't. Well, at least for lynx. I had a box without X with lynx. And I sure you srewd something up if your box required X for ncurses.

      --

      Less is more !
    20. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by axxackall · · Score: 0, Troll
      RH is a special kind of Linux. Technically, they use Linux kernel. And even GNU tools. But practically, they mess everything so much up, that "root without IP addess" doesn't look strange anymore.

      I think that RH is the biggest failure of Linux. Without RH the position of Linux on the market would be much better. All the time I hear a negative security experience of MSwin-admins, who have tried first time to learn Linux, is when they've chosen RH thinking that it is Linux. What a shame.

      --

      Less is more !
    21. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point is to demonstrate that UID 0 (root) could have all of it's privledges removed, which isn't possible with standard Linux security.

    22. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by smcn · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      You know sometimes when you're typing and doing porno else at the same time and you end up penis something related to the second ejaculation?

      That's probably what happened.

    23. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is easy...it means: the root had no Intellectual Property address!

    24. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by hdparm · · Score: 1

      I hope this was a display of rather large dose of sarcasm. If not and you really think what you said, you are a fool.

    25. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by jrockway · · Score: 1

      links and lynx are two different browsers.

      --
      My other car is first.
    26. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, he's right about this part

      All the time I hear a negative security experience of MSwin-admins, who have tried first time to learn Linux, is when they've chosen RH thinking that it is Linux

      These are the same people who when asked which version of Linux they are running reply, "9". There are also the media types who cite vulnerabilities in RH distros as holes in "Linux". By that reasoning, holes in Acrobat and Excel would be called holes in "windows" if they came bundled with it.

      You may think these are people who misunderstand, but that's the point.

    27. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why he said, "Well, at least for lynx."

    28. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by Wiz · · Score: 2, Funny

      Hey! Thats the same password as my planet's airsheild!

    29. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oh come on people! this is a classic spaceballs quote... if someone doesnt mod this up funny now; i'm gonna bookmark it and come back when i have mod points... just so the gods dont destroy our puney earthling race!

    30. Re:45 Seconds?!?! by Wiz · · Score: 1

      Thank you AC!

  4. Security? by azatht · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Has they created something by their own to enhance the security, or is it just that they have included some restricitons to the users/administrators? (ie. have they dissabled the root-account?)

    --
    ------- In the end there are no begining
    1. Re:Security? by Sexy+Bern · · Score: 5, Funny

      ifconfig eth0 down

    2. Re:Security? by oohp · · Score: 1

      SeLinux by itself doesn't just "enhance security". It's merely a security extension. Good coding techniques and code auditing does, as proven by the OpenBSD project.

  5. I'm Done With Redhat by tealover · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I wiped it off my dual-boot machine (now single boot). They do some good things but they seem lost recently. They're scrambling to come up with a successful business model. Unfortunately, I can't wait for them to figure it out. I need a stable linux platform that I can count on.

    I hope things work out for them because to a large extent, their success (or lack) will be tied to the Open Source movement.

    --
    -- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
    1. Re:I'm Done With Redhat by bcs_metacon.ca · · Score: 1

      Do more reasearch into Fedora Core before dismissing it as "unstable".

      --

      How appropriate. You fight like a cow.
    2. Re:I'm Done With Redhat by cubicledrone · · Score: 2, Informative

      Stock price is up 400% in 12 months. Is that successful enough?

      --
      Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
    3. Re:I'm Done With Redhat by sloanster · · Score: 1

      I wiped it off my dual-boot machine (now single boot).

      So, you're saying pretty much just a windows user now? it seems odd, unless you weren't doing much with linux anyway.

      Unfortunately, I can't wait for them to figure it out.

      It sure looks as though they've figued it out - Let's see, redhat has been profitable of late, their stock has gone up, their enterprise products are solid and selling well. And the kicker, their fedora distro is a beautiful gift to the community, essentially a very nice, snappy successor to RH 9, let's call it RH 9 done right.

      I need a stable linux platform that I can count on.

      Did I miss something? Last time I checked their supported platforms are as supported as ever, with 24x7 phone support if you need it. The fact is, redhat is as stable as ever - if you had to bet on one distro to be around for the long haul, redhat is it. Suse would be the other distro.

      In the past months, I've found fedora on the server to be as solid as RH 7/8/9 ever were, if not more so. Naturally redhat would like you to buy RHEL for the server room, which is fine if you have the money, which most businesses do, but if you demand a free speech/free beer distro, fedora fits the bill quite nicely - and the fedora desktop is quite nice, once the required toys are installed.

      BTW I have remotely upgraded a number of RH 8/9 boxes to fedora, and the boxes remained accessible and in service the whole time - just try that with windows!

    4. Re:I'm Done With Redhat by Skal+Tura · · Score: 1

      i wouldn't use neither Suse nor Redhat as server.
      Seems just too way insecure & hard to manage.
      Debian is the way to go IMHO, i've been using it for a long time now, and when i first changed to it, i noticed immediately how much easier it is to handle, you have the choice, not the installer/distro scripts etc.

      Altho, debian needs a lot of work too to work like you want to... like any other distro.

      The next choice would perhaps be freebsd.

      Red Hat / Suse is desktop/workstation for me, nothing more, but we could argue over this month after month without any conclusions.
      I like that Red Hat is taking steps towards in security :) I hope they get it done correctly, and after they've got it into a decent phase i'll see into again if Red Hat has to offer me more than debian.

    5. Re:I'm Done With Redhat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, you're saying pretty much just a windows user now?

      No, his main boot is BeOS. Duh.

    6. Re:I'm Done With Redhat by sloanster · · Score: 1

      certainly a possiblilty, although he could be a freebsd or solarix x86 user - it just seemed odd that a windows user would be talking about needing a linux distro to depend on.

    7. Re:I'm Done With Redhat by sloanster · · Score: 1

      i wouldn't use neither Suse nor Redhat as server.
      Both work just fine for me!

      Seems just too way insecure & hard to manage.
      In what way does it "seem" insecure? It's been excellent over the past several years that I've had production servers running it. In what way does it "seem" hard to manage? compared to windows, or to traditional unices, it's a breeze.

      Debian is the way to go IMHO, i've been using it for a long time now, and when i first changed to it, i noticed immediately how much easier it is to handle, you have the choice, not the installer/distro scripts etc.
      You would probably benefit from trying something different. I rans sls in 1993, then slackware from late 93 to early 97 when I switched to redhat. I've also tried some debian derivitives like progeny, and have admined solaris, hpux, and irix. OK, apt was a nice debian tool, but that's been ported to redhat so I'm not sure what benefits you are claiming for debian.

      I like that Red Hat is taking steps towards in security :)
      dude, they started taking steps many years ago, what they are doing now is taking the lead in security.

    8. Re:I'm Done With Redhat by eddy · · Score: 1

      Using that metric SCOX is a very successful company.

      --
      Belief is the currency of delusion.
    9. Re:I'm Done With Redhat by Skal+Tura · · Score: 1

      well, i haven't seen much of security related
      stuff in red hat before. They've seemed to like
      always have exploit or two.
      Also, i remember that i had kinda a lot of problems when trying Red Hat with newer kernel &
      grsec. Not sure was it just bad luck.
      Windows is very hard to manage remotely altho.

      Debian gets easy to manage, at initially because
      of apt (and you can always time apt upgrades),
      rhn wants registrations and all that not very
      nice stuff. also at rhn, if you do not have latest distro, it won't offer latest packages
      neither.

      Then add to debian your custom kernel, kinda a
      lot easier because it doesn't default to grub,
      yes you can select lilo from rh install but
      sometimes you just somehow miss the button and
      forget whole thing.
      Then add there webmin with SSL, non default port
      and set firewall to only accept connections to
      webmin from trusted ips. if you have at home
      dynamic dns then a little bit of scripting is
      needed to change the trusted ip(s), i think
      good way is to get an dyndns acc and auto-update
      it for your home, and on the server a script
      which check ie. once in a hour the ip of that
      address and changes FW accordingly.
      also, in debian installing new software is very
      fast, comparing to red hat, just apt-get install

      and, yes they are perhaps taking "lead" in security of linux distros now, but security ain't
      product, it is a process like someone said.

      one thing i hate about apt altho is that it always wants me to install some freakin' kernel
      i don't need! oO; it just wants to install it
      while i don't want it while updating the system.

      But, like said earlier, we could argue over this
      for months, without conclusion. someone likes
      RH best, someone Suse and someone debian.

      and oh yeah, RH defaults to install XFree even on
      servers if i remember correctly, i hate that. or
      do i remember incorrectly?

  6. Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Raster+Burn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The article implies that SE Linux would be more secure that Windows, especially in light of the MyDoom virus. But doesn't the MyDoom virus depend on a dope sysadmin clicking on a binary attachment to spread?

    So how does SE Linux protect systems against trojans?

    1. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by BoomerSooner · · Score: 4, Funny

      By not running your mail client as root.

    2. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by utahjazz · · Score: 1

      doesn't the MyDoom virus depend on a dope sysadmin clicking on a binary attachment to spread?

      Alas, to gain usability, distros targeting mass market desktop users are starting to make them log in as root by default (Lindows).

      If Linux is ever as popular as windows, I'll bet most people will be running as root. And, they'll not hesitate to download zips and run them. Come to think of it, we can't even tell them "Don't click on .exe files"

      --
      We got zips in the wire. Drop all you got on my position.

    3. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by shird · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You should already be running your mail client under windows without admin privs, which achieves the same thing. However:

      I suppose non-root users can't send e-mail? Afterall, that is a major component of what the mydoom virus does.

      And I suppose non-root users can't listen on a port for incomming instructions to execute? Or run a proxy server on a non-privleged port?

      And will it stop a trojan which asks 'Root password needed to continue:' and then proceeds to use it to screw your system? If users are dumb enough to run arbritrary code, they will be more than happy to supply a root password.

      Linux is no more secure than windows against trojans.

      --
      I.O.U One Sig.
    4. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      By not running your mail client as root.
      root has nothing to do with it. If a user executes the MyDoom binary (which means they had to first unzip it, then find the unzipped file, then double-click on it), they will become infected, regardless of whether or not they're running on an Administrator account. The executable will run, it will begin looking for email addresses, it will commence mailing out out copies of itself, etc. It will still be able to write a "Run this program when I login" registry key.

      All of this is just as plausible on a Linux machine. The problem for worm writers is that the process takes an extra step. They'd have to gunzip - not a huge task, if they're using a GUI - then chmod, then run. The second step is the barrier to malware. On unix operating systems, files don't execute based upon their names. Files must be specifically and intentionally chmod'd in order to be executable.

      This is why MyDoom would not succeed on Linux.
    5. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by shird · · Score: 1

      So it won't succeed because it is a pain in the arse to run anything under Linux?

      What your saying is basically Linux is too difficult to use for a user to spread viruses under. I can see this changing over time however.

      --
      I.O.U One Sig.
    6. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Linux is no more secure than windows against trojans.

      I have yet to see a Linux mail client which will execute an attachment if you click on it.

      Usually one would have to save the attachment to disk, set the executable flag, and then run the attachment.

    7. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by pavera · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wrong,
      By simply clicking on an attachment in any mail client in linux it will not execute... The user would have to save the attachment to disk, chmod it +x, and then execute it, and then, if the trojan wanted to write anything to disk outside of the users home directory, it would have to ask for the root password, and then if the user was that stupid, ok they really deserve to be infected with a virus. However, in a decently admined system the users don't know the root password, they don't need it ever, and they should never be installing programs. The amount of work it would take to install the trojan on linux would be a deterrent, it is also the deterrent to wide scale adoption by home users of linux.. because installing programs is just as difficult as installing trojans.

    8. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by shird · · Score: 1

      And I suppose the Linux kernel is whats stopping that from happening?

      I could write a mail client under windows which doesn't execute attachments when you click on them, and requires you to save the file to disk and rename it to execute, therefore windows is also secure!

      I could write a client under Linux which sets the execute bit and runs attachments when you click on them, therefore Linux is insecure!

      bah.

      --
      I.O.U One Sig.
    9. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Pharmboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Linux is no more secure than windows against trojans

      I would respectfully disagree. Linux is no more secure than windows against "social engineering", but there is a difference in a trojan run as a user and a trojan run as root. One of the primary problems with Windows is the difficulty in running some software that should be "user" software without root access.

      I got my first SunOS shell many years ago, and I am pretty sure most trojans, if they had existed, might have wiped out my files, but not wiped the entire system, since I certainly did not have root access. Even at an office network, it is possible to have a Linux setup without anyone having root access, but this is more difficult with Windows, and impossible with networks that work with mixed OS's (like mine) with win9x/2k/linux.

      I agree that Linux is not bullet-proof, but there are some real differences that would limit the rampant spread of a worm/trojan as long as the whole world doesn't change to Lindows or other nix varients that run as root default.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    10. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by shird · · Score: 1

      The same can be done with a securely coded mail client and correct user account under windows.

      But for ease of use, and pressure to have admin privs, you have this insecure situation under Windows. The same will be true of Linux if it were to go mainstream.

      --
      I.O.U One Sig.
    11. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Tim+C · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But on a single-user system, what difference does it really make?

      Whether I run as root/Administrator or not, all the important stuff on my machine (my files) are read/write/delete my user anyway. Running as an unprivileged user means two things:

      a) I can't interfere with other users' files
      b) I can't interfere with system files

      If I'm the only user, and my system files are all backed up on the nice, shiny install media, what is the difference, apart from perhaps having to reinstall?

    12. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by shird · · Score: 1

      Actually the problem is probably worse under Linux than windows. Because of setuid programs, there are a lot more local root exploits under Linux than windows (which has very few, due to no concept of setuid root).

      Therefore, a Linux virus could 'get root' under a normal user account a hell of a lot easier than one could under Windows. With root access, a virus then becomes a lot more serious.

      --
      I.O.U One Sig.
    13. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by pacman+on+prozac · · Score: 2, Informative

      I suppose non-root users can't send e-mail? And I suppose non-root users can't listen on a port for incomming instructions to execute? Or run a proxy server on a non-privleged port?

      Not with SELinux or other ACL systems such as grsecurity and LIDS if they're given the right settings, revoke net capabilities from all users and only grant them to the ones that need it.

      And will it stop a trojan which asks 'Root password needed to continue:' and then proceeds to use it to screw your system?

      SELinux will yea, thats kinda the point of it. They're assuming your box is going to get rooted, and letting you protect it from what root can do to it.

      Theres a couple of SELinux demo systems online that let you login as root, one here. Yep, anyone, anywhere, given free root, only you can't do anything with it. Normal linux, yep all your arguments stand, bung ACL's on there and its rock solid. Unfortunately its also a royal PITA to run a desktop machine on.

      I've not got around to trying selinux yet but was thinking of the posibility of a perl script parsing its error log while its running in non-enforce mode and generating ACL's from that, anyone know if this would be possible? Would certainly make it a lot easier to setup a desktop workstation running SELinux.

    14. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Wrong.

      It appears that Microsoft relies on, even banks on, the end user being completely stupid.

      The open source movement instead tries to educate the end user, even if it is just a little, with how things work.

      Whiners will say this takes too much time.

      Again, wrong.

      What takes to much time is the countless hours every week that end users spend dealing with spam, viruses, crashes, and incompatabilities.

      We can thank Microsoft and their model for the majority of these.

    15. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, the whole freaking thing is root!

      99% of windows xp installations are setup as the default user being the administrator (ie, every single time they log into their machine they are logging in as root).

      How is that supposed to be secure?

    16. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      By simply clicking on an attachment in any mail client in linux it will not execute... The user would have to save the attachment to disk, chmod it +x, and then execute it

      So the process of downloading and starting attached executables is more difficult. This would stop viruses that tried to hide themselves as jpegs or something, but not the "try this neato screensaver" ones.

      and then, if the trojan wanted to write anything to disk outside of the users home directory, it would have to ask for the root password

      You can set up Windows to work this way (NT based ones anyway). There's probably a reason Microsoft does not do that by default, and those selling Linux to the masses will quickly discover it.

      ok they really deserve to be infected with a virus.

      ...which doesn't really matter. Do you deserve to be spammed by the virus after they infect their machine?

      The amount of work it would take to install the trojan on linux would be a deterrent, it is also the deterrent to wide scale adoption by home users of linux.. because installing programs is just as difficult as installing

      Exactly. So this is all really meaningless. You can make things just as difficult with Windows. It's not that way by default, but if you're talking "decently admined"...

      In fact, Windows has more fine-grained file security, so one could argue that Windows is actually better.

    17. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Informative

      You don't need to be an administrator to infect NT with MyDoom. However the worm will only run as users who have run it once. It thereafter puts a registry entry in to start it on login.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    18. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Mr.+Hankey · · Score: 1

      I think what he was trying to explain is not that it's difficult to use, but that it's less likely to abuse. All you need to to to be infected by MyDoom under Windows is double-click on the file after it's extracted. If this were under Linux, UNIX-based systems really, you'd need one more step - basically, you give permission to the file to be executable. It's only harder to accidentally run something. The same holds true in MacOS X for example, and there aren't that many MacOS X users complaining that it's difficult to use.

      Here's an exercise for you. Right click on a file under Windows >=NT4. Somewhere in there (depending on the version) there's a setting to change permissions on your file, typical DOS-derived permissions give you Read-only, System and Hidden. It's something like that under UNIX as well, indeed under KDE (a UNIX desktop environment) it looks nearly the same. There's just an extra option called Exec(ute), which can be specified differently for users and groups of users.

      That being said, it's quite possible for such a virus to spread under Linux/UNIX. The difference is that the security model of UNIX-like systems, especially users/admins giving applications permission to execute, makes it more difficult for these viruses to spread. Aside from market share and the ability to run on multiple platforms, that's why viruses under UNIX-like systems tend to wither and go away rather than propagating far and wide.

      It's sort of like the OS equivalent of seat belts and air bags. Think about it: if Windows required users to give permission to an application before executing it, instead of automatically executing programs which masquerade as documents, odds are there would be far fewer viruses being spread in this manner.

      --
      GPL: Free as in will
    19. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      Stick it in a tgz then, the +x file permissions are preserved. Recent MS virii (viruses, virus`) have done similiar, and it hasnt really slowed them down.

    20. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not that running things under Linux is a pain in the arse. It's that, in order to execute a file, you have to specifically tell the OS that you want that file to be executable.

      Look at Windows with all the AnnaKournikova.jpg.vbs, LoveLetter.doc.scr, etc junk that most users don't realize are actually executable files. Especially with Windows' default to "hide known file extensions." Try double-clicking AnnaKournikova.jpg.sh on Linux and nothing happens until you explicitly chmod the file to +x.

      Windows is too reliant on file extensions. Linux doesn't rely on file extensions at all, instead, you have to specify "I want to RUN this file" as opposed to "I want to OPEN this file." As Linux becomes more prevalent, I believe the difference between OPENING and RUNNING a file will, too.

    21. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by buysse · · Score: 1

      Non-root users cannot open raw sockets to craft packets (hence nmap -sS must run as root). Non-root users cannot run the ethernet device in a promiscous mode, allowing sniffing of packets on the wire. Before you say anything about switches preventing you from getting anything interesting by sniffing, I suggest that you take a look at dsniff before showing your ignorance. A non-root user can't open a port below 1024 (Un*x), or add services (Windows), or install a r00tkit on any system, or many other things.

      Basically, even on Windows, while a system can be compromised in many ways as a non-root user, it's quite a bit more difficult to hide and there are still some limitations -- the most important (IMNSHO) involving raw sockets.

      </rant>

      --
      -30-
    22. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Coryoth · · Score: 1

      You should already be running your mail client under windows without admin privs, which achieves the same thing. However:

      I suppose non-root users can't send e-mail? Afterall, that is a major component of what the mydoom virus does.

      And I suppose non-root users can't listen on a port for incomming instructions to execute? Or run a proxy server on a non-privleged port?


      Uh, yeah, that's pretty much how it would work under SELinux with an appropriate policy. Presuming it is set up properly (and the default NSA configs are pretty good) you can get a buffer overflow and be root on an SELinux box, and still not actually be able to do anything. It is a remarkably powerful system. Actually read the docs at http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/doc/policy2/t1.html and be impressed with how robust this system is.

      Jedidiah.

    23. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Spoing · · Score: 4, Informative
      1. So how does SE Linux protect systems against trojans?

      SE Linux removes what you might consider to be the "superuser" account (aka 'root' under *nix or 'administrator' under Windows).

      You can configure the system to act just as it is now -- having an account that is all-powerful (root or another one), or you can have very limited focus accounts that can not 'see' or use the resources of the others.

      The core OS still has the ability to do root-like things and dole out those permissions, though the scope of what needs to be watched is greatly reduced.

      By itself, this is not interesting. As a base for a security policy, the increased ability to log who-did-what, and the ability to stop per-process resouce use (not just per 'user'), it becomes very very interesting.

      Here are some links on it;

      Security-Enhanced Fedora Core 2

      Looking forward to Fedora Core 2

      (follow this thread) Re: Proposal: Discourage rpmbuild --sign

      The main SE Linux site

      --
      A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
    24. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by iabervon · · Score: 1

      Depending on how it is configured, it might actually prevent outgoing connections on port 25 from programs not configured by the installer as mail programs and prevent users from modifying mail programs.

      More to the point, it probably only has mail programs which make it clear that the user is arranging to download and run software from an untrusted source, as opposed to merely viewing something.

    25. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Untrue... it's one of the areas that Windows actually makes itself more insecure because of short sightedness.

      Because a privileged app can't setuid, they all have to have their own user + a password hardcoded into the binary (or stored in the registry.. same difference) which can be decoded to plaintext (Windows requires the plaintext password of a user to call LogonUser even if you're an admin). This is why there's the IIS_xxx accounts in Windows so IIS can drop privileges (decoding those passwords is trivial and it's quite fun as you can't change them!).

      Of course if you're a *legal* app then you need the plaintext password. If you're a *virus* then you don't.. you just need enough social engineering to be able to get either write access to a couple of critical registry keys or CreateToken privilege. If you get access to the registry keys, btw. you can create a delegation level access token and use that access to do a network-wide hack (no I'm *not* going into any more detail... I only got away with it because the net admin at work has a sense of humour... like the day I dumped a list of every password on the network on his desk and said 'it's about time people stopped using their first name/girlfriends name as their password!').

      Tony

    26. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by pavera · · Score: 1

      I have worked in both windows and unix shops (Solaris, FreeBSD and Linux). Yeah, you can crack down on users in windows, but then they can't do anything. So many programs in windows *require* admin privileges just to run that it is impossible to do any work with non-admin users. Unix on the other hand allows the user to run most anything without admin privs, and they can install things into a bin directory in their home folder, and that (granted) is a security issue because they could install a trojan there and run it, however, they still have to jump through some hoops, and any decent virus tries to change system properties... IE in linux if the trojan wants to start every time the computer boots up, then it has to write a shell script to /etc/init.d, and it can't do that without root privs (in the enterprise environments I've worked in the users don't have the root password, they don't need it so they can't give the trojan root access), so the only time it would run is if that user logs on (and it creates an entry in like the xsession file in the home directory) these windows viruses have full access to every file on the system (IE in a multi user environment, the trojan can read and find email addresses to spam from all users on the entire system, in linux it wouldn't be able to see other users address books). The virus can change and modify system behavior in windows (registry settings, append itself to other executables, whatever its wants) because users must be admin, and therefore the trojan has admin privs. In linux, it could do this in the users home directory, but it won't be able to say, reformat the hard drive (need root privs to run that program), it won't be able to start itself at system start up automatically, it won't be able to change every user on the machines home page to some porn site, only the one who installed the virus. This helps greatly with finding out who was the stupid one, and training them in proper computer usage, or firing them... whichever your enterprise desires. Under windows you can never find out who broke company policy and opened a .exe attachment from someone they didn't know, because the trojan is suddenly spread across the entire network and tracing exactly where it started is impossible. These are all problems created by the fact that in windows because admin is the default too many programs used that fact and now can't run without admin priviliges, thus locking down windows boxes is not cost effective, as you have to have 2-3 people for every 50 users just running around granting admin privs and then revoking them every time someone needs one of these programs.

    27. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Spoing · · Score: 1
      1. If I'm the only user, and my system files are all backed up on the nice, shiny install media, what is the difference, apart from perhaps having to reinstall?

      Don't think per-user, think per-process (and per-whatever).

      If your email program runs in isolation from your other files, and it spawns files as a seperate process, a rogue virus -- even if you run it -- won't do any dammage. It will be effectively 'jailed'; locked away from other resources including the network and other files that the single-user does have access to.

      While this jail does not protect you entirely, it does nearly all exploits -- or programming misakes -- much less likely to have any impact.

      That said, this is Linux! Use the email example as only that -- an example. Extrapolate more meaningful ones.

      --
      A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
    28. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by RoundSparrow · · Score: 1

      Comment:

      I would say that traditionally the focus has been on reading or writing a file.

      For a single-user system, deleting a file was much more risk in the past than a virus.

      I think the _intention_ of Outlook was to allow it to be easy to run a EXE. Like it or not, I don't think it was an accident. E-mail came from corporate systems - back in the days when training was more an issue (ease of use) than security.

      Look, things change. Once we get the open vs. run thing fixed - something else will come up :)

    29. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      KMail runs Windows Viruses through Wine with just a double-click. According to KDE devs, this isn't a security flaw.

    30. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by GMC-jimmy · · Score: 1

      It's always assumed that running attachments in Linux is the same as running them from Windows, but that couldn't be further from the truth. In Windows all anyone has to do is double-click the attachment to execute it, but it doesn't work like that in a typical Linux distribution. Even with nothing but the default settings one would still have to consciosly make that attachment into an executable file (ie: chmod +x attachment) and ONLY THEN could that file be executed.

      Now we could go from here into an argument about how the default settings could be changed in Linux to allow that sort of behavier, but we could also argue that Windows default settings could be changed to NOT allow a double-click to execute attachments. Instead of thinking about what could be, or what should be in the future, let's instead talk about what it really is NOW. The default settings for Linux are NOT the same as Windows, and due to the large amount of grief Windows users experience with the default settings is one of the key reasons Linux defaults do not match Windows today.

      This could be a reason why so many frustrated Linux newbies often complain "It doesn't work like it does Windows." or "Windows does it different."

      Ofcoarse it's not going to work like Windows. It isn't supposed to. It also doesn't have the amount of trouble that Windows has either. If you are experiencing trouble with the way you're doing things, then it might be time to change the way you're doing things.

      --
      __________________________________
      Free your mind - Flush your toilet
    31. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or have any files in /tmp be rwx. But then, its not suposed to be used for users "files" and to be deleted at midnight.

    32. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, you can change the IUSR account password in the IIS manager gui.

      But you make a good point that because NT was designed to be "more secure", they left out setuid and inadvertendly made it less secure by forcing one to store passwords.

      Unlike Apache, IIS wasn't really designed to be run in an untrusted environment with anonymous users. It's really intended for intranet usage where everyone authenticates.

    33. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, try double-clicking on AnnaKournikova.jpg.pl -- the desktop software could just launch Perl, and you wouldn't need Execute rights on the script.

    34. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Pros_n_Cons · · Score: 2, Informative

      my doom works even if you're not root (admin) "MyDoom uses this opening to add %system%/shimgapi.dll, %temp%/Message and %system%/taskmon.exe. Taskmon.exe is a core Windows 98 family file, and Windows lets a user-level program change this, or in the case of the NT/2000/XP family, add this file! This is security at its worse."

      --

      -- "of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller
    35. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like someone's been reading Steve Gibson. You need Administrator privs to open raw sockets and to do the rest of the stuff you listed. (Except that unprivledged users can open ports below 1024 on NT, but that's more of an administration issues than a security issue.)

    36. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Pros_n_Cons · · Score: 1

      No mydoom doesn't need admin
      http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,4149,1514997,00.as p
      read the second page, specifically:
      " In Windows, though, any user can always act as root for their machine's core programs and MyDoom uses this opening to add %system%/shimgapi.dll, %temp%/Message and %system%/taskmon.exe. Taskmon.exe is a core Windows 98 family file, and Windows lets a user-level program change this, or in the case of the NT/2000/XP family, add this file! This is security at its worse. "

      --

      -- "of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller
    37. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by sloanster · · Score: 1

      And I suppose the Linux kernel is whats stopping that from happening?

      No, it's more than that, it's something called the unix design philosophy - a very different mindset from the peecee culture of the microsoft crowd. There are a number of differences in the way things are done, and the result is much better security - microsoft is just now thinking about taking some baby steps, the ones taken by unix in the '80s.

    38. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Uh, this thing is, your important data and stuff is under your user account, not root. Otherwise how do you get to your data?

      And a similar virus can work on Linux. Pretty much any program can start as a daemon and listen on unpriveledged ports. That's really all the Windows virus programs are doing. No root password needed.

      A Linux virus is possible and would cause just as much havoc. However, most Linux software tends to be more network aware than the Windows stuff (remember that Microsoft was late to this Internet thing) and therefore isn't as riddled with obvious holes as say Outlook.

    39. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a general reply to a huge misconception. You don't need SELinux to protect against this. Let me say it again. You don't need SELinux to protect against this. Arbitrary programs should not be binding to ports to begin with. This is a basic feature in FreeBSD and I'm sure you can limit what ports are available in Linux w/o SELinux, in fact, I know you can. Also, we have this neat little invention called a packet-filtering firewall. This code, for those not familiar, allows a sysadmin to specify a policy of packets allowed and not allowed based on a number of things, including port number and address. Your packet filter should not allow outgoing packets from arbitrary ports. This is basic security people.

      bja

    40. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by buysse · · Score: 1
      Actually, I think that Steve Gibson cried wolf a little too loud, and isn't taken seriously anymore. That's fine. These specific problems still exist when a desktop is running as root or equivalent.

      As to ports below 1024, the protocols that consider that some form of authentication (?) and think that it makes them more secure if they require connections from low ports are broken. Plain and simple. Though, just because of those ancient conventions I do think that MS should prevent regular users from opening low ports... but that's another rant.

      --
      -30-
    41. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by salimma · · Score: 2, Insightful
      But doesn't the MyDoom virus depend on a dope sysadmin clicking on a binary attachment to spread?

      Not really. Two points:
      • In Windows XP everyone defaults to being sysadmins
      • A virus does not need access to other people's files to access our user's address book and mass-mail itself. Though in this case the virus would only be active once the user logs on

      The problem with Windows permissions is that you could attach an executable and it would have 'execute' permission by default, unless in Unix-like OSes where attachments are not by default executable. You could send a Unix trojan in a tarball, but it would not be point-and-click anymore, so would probably spread less.

      Still, if Windows users have 5 popular e-mail clients to choose from virus/trojan writers would still have a much harder time. That they don't, in general, should be Microsoft's problem. Except that they don't care.

      --
      Michel
      Fedora Project Contribut
    42. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by bluGill · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but most windows users run as administrator. Except at large offices where IS locks your machine down, and even them users tend to complain. Laptop users apparently cannot function without administrator rights. (or at least my boss told me I had to get administrator from IS when I got a laptop, but that was years ago, and I wasn't there long).

      With sudo in linux you can at least make sure the few things a user might want root for are contained. (generally network configuration. and you just prevented them from installing applications perhaps illegally on a work machine by getitng it right)

      Unix users in general do not use or need root on a day to day basis, and are used to IS installing applications centrally (on a fileserver). Windows users often get applications installed locally. It doesn't have to be that way, but it normally is.

    43. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by digidave · · Score: 2, Insightful

      From what I've seen lusers do I'm pretty confident that some people would spend four hours installing dependencies just so they could get the virus or trojan to run.

      --
      The global economy is a great thing until you feel it locally.
    44. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by bluGill · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but check around and you will discover the typically windows user is running as administrator, while the typical Linux user does not. Sure you don't have to, but linux is easy to run as a normal user. (Many programs in fact reccomend that you not run as root) Windows doesn't make it easy to run without administrator rights. This isn't necessarily Microsoft's fault, NT has always had the ability for non-administrator users, but many programs do not run correctly without it.

    45. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by bluGill · · Score: 1

      Are you sure you are a single user system? I'm a bachelor living alone, so I'm about as close to a single user as you can get. I have an account on my machine for my sister for when she baby-sits the cat. I also have a guest account for the few visitors I get so they can log in (no remote login) without a password and play a few games/browse the web.

      Back in the windows 3.1 days my other sister (about 3 at the time) destroyed just by playing around enough things that we had to reinstall DOS and Windows. That won't be a problem on my machine, kids can play around all they want without breaking anything.

      Sure you can reinstall, but do you want to take that time? I have better things to do with my time.

      Well, assuming they don't find a root security hole, but they are hard enough to trigger that I dont worry about it.

    46. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by owlstead · · Score: 1

      However, in a decently admined system the users don't know the root password, they don't need it ever, and they should never be installing programs.

      In what kind of world do you live? Must be a different one that I am living in...This is at least not true for home users. And as a developer (which is a kind of power user, MS got that name right) I am certainly in need to install applications.

    47. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by LnxAddct · · Score: 1

      ...it is also the deterrent to wide scale adoption by home users of linux.. because installing programs is just as difficult as installing trojans.

      hmmm...Maybe the trojan writers will make it easy for us and just say, "Hey this is a cool app, add this site to your apt sources list, then apt-get update, then apt-get install mytrojan." All kidding aside, installing apps in linux is far easier then in windows, apt-get install anything_you_want will do it all for you. Windows makes you click too much and quite honestly involves too much mouse work (can't stand that damn rodent). Sure its prettier but I don't run computers cause I like pretty things. What I'm getting at is apps require a one line command to install in Linux, in order for the trojans to use the same easy install method would require quite a bit more work.That in turn with products like ClamAV which are free and responsive to new threats immediatley, would make spreading viruses/trojans/worms very hard to do considering that its free AV and you will never have to worry about the users subscribing or keeping their subscription up to date.
      Regards,
      Steve

    48. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by really? · · Score: 1

      Of course he lives in a different world. He did say "decently admined system". Those exist only - well, almost only - in a corporate environment.

      Having said that, one doesn't really need the root password to do most things, "sudo" is your friend; and, it provides a little more logging so you can, generally, see who did what/when. One does have to give the "design" of the sudoers file some thought, though ... which takes us right back to "decently admined system".

      --

      "Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are the dead." A. Huxley
    49. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I'm on a crusade. I intend to post a comment like this one whenever I see anybody use "virii." Please don't interpret this comment as either endorsement of or disagreement with the parent post. Moderators: with your help, we can wipe out "virii" in our lifetime!

      The plural of "virus" isn't "virii." There is no such word. The plural of "virus" is "viruses."

      Here's a good explanation from cdknow.com, quoted here in its entirety because the people who most need to read this won't click on a link.

      The correct English plural of virus is viruses. Please consult any good dictionary before making up words.

      For the purists, in Latin, there is a rarely-used plural form:

      virus, viri (neuter)

      (Forms: almost always restricted to nominative and accusative singular; generally singular in Lucretius, ablative singular in Lucretius)

      The point of this is that even in Latin the form "viri" is rarely used. The singular form is used in most every instance. (This is from the Oxford Latin Dictionary.)

      So, when considering the Latin: "virii" is incorrect and "viri" was almost never used.

      Despite the fact there was little use for the plural form, there is another reason why "viri" was rarely used. The most common Latin word for "man" is "vir" with "viri" being its plural in the form used as the subject of a sentence. Thus, since "men" as the subject of a sentence would be used far more often than "venoms" (virus means venom) the "viri" word was most commonly seen as the plural of "man."

      Bottom line: Don't try to make up words using a false Latin plural form. Since the word virus in its English form is now used then the English plural (viruses) should be used.

      More plural-of-virus resources:

      perl.com, the canonical and exhaustive source
      Jonathan de Boyne Pollard's Frequently Given Answer

    50. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $ su
      Password:
      # tar -xf email_trojan.tar
      # cd email_trojan/
      # ./configure
      # make
      # make install
      # exit

    51. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A UNIX client would show the .pl in the filename. Windows applications may not show the .vbs depending on configuration. That's why users thought it was a jpeg and not an executable.

    52. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by little_fluffy_clouds · · Score: 1

      ...in linux if the trojan wants to start every time the computer boots up, then it has to write a shell script to /etc/init.d, and it can't do that without root privs

      It could, however, put an "@reboot" line in the users crontab...

      --
      What were the skies like when you were young?
    53. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by jsebrech · · Score: 1

      Any system offering a service to the outside world offers a vector for entry. Yes, running unneeded public services is a bad thing, but if a hacker gains entry through an apache security flaw, there's nothing you can do to stop that. You can only limit the damage they can do once they get on the system.

    54. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by __past__ · · Score: 1

      And that is why Linux will never be successfull on the desktop, unless initialitves like this one get adopted by all major distros. Why is it so complicated for Linux users to be part of a worldwide collaborative effort to bring the net down, when it has been completely transparent for Windows users for years?

    55. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Ben+Hutchings · · Score: 1

      Another way to take over a Windows machine from an unprivileged account is to insert code into a privileged processe using window messages. Microsoft advises against creating windows in service processes and provides the "allow service to interact with desktop" flag to force any windows they do create (e.g. error message-boxes) to be walled-off from the real desktop. However, some of the default services break this rule, the messenger service being a prime example. This may have been fixed in Windows Server 2003 though.

    56. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by Ben+Hutchings · · Score: 1
      In Windows all anyone has to do is double-click the attachment to execute it,

      This was once true, but recent versions of Outlook, Outlook Express and Eudora do not allow this. The problem is the huge installed base of older, more trusting versions.

    57. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type virii? by pavera · · Score: 1

      I agree that installing things is easy in linux...
      but not if you don't have root privs.
      apt-get install mytrojan as a normal user on any system I configure gets you "You need root privs to do that"

  7. Windows Beats Linux! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny
    The last version was defeated within 45 seconds
    That's nothing. I put a stock Windows box on the internet, didn't even bother publishing the IP, and it was cracked within 10 seconds! Take that, open-source advocates, Windows has finally beat you at something!
    1. Re:Windows Beats Linux! by hendridm · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Not sure if you're joking or serious, but during the Code Red fiasco I put a Windows machine with IIS online on my cable modem. Thanks to port 80 being forwarded to that machine on my firewall, my computer was infected after I installed Windows in the time it took me to find and install the service pack! From then on, I made sure to remove port forwards before installing updates on newly installed machines :)

      I guess it's no surprise, given the amount of Code Red traffic there was at the time, but I just didn't think of it at the time since I had planned on installing all the updates after reloading.

    2. Re:Windows Beats Linux! by Dylan+Zimmerman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's nothing. I installed MS Desktop SQL Server (comes with Visual Studio) on my machine, explicitly denied it access to the Internet, explicitly denied access to it from the Internet (both in my software firewall), and it was infected with Slammer within 15 seconds of connecting over dialup. I'm dead serious. I guess that something could have deactivated my firewall, but it claimed that it was up.

    3. Re:Windows Beats Linux! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Repeat after me:
      ZoneAlarm does not FUCKING WORK!

      Use linux damnit!

    4. Re:Windows Beats Linux! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A few years ago, we used to install default versions of Solaris on boxes, and if you didn't shut off sendmail, it was relaying spam by the end of the day.

    5. Re:Windows Beats Linux! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You probably said that to be funny but it took a whole 2 mintues for an unprotected, unpatched XP virtual machine to get infected with the Blaster worm. This is not a joke or a slam, merely a case of that "you best keep any system you put online patched and up to date".

    6. Re:Windows Beats Linux! by owlstead · · Score: 1

      Yep. Heard this one from a friend:

      1 - Put Windows 98 computer on the internet behind a very fast connection
      2 - Wait a couple of days
      3 - Harvest movies and mp3's from machine
      4 - Format & reinstall
      5 - Go to 2

    7. Re:Windows Beats Linux! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As the other person said, not sure if a joke or not. I installed Windows 2k Server at a Uni on a nice, fast pipe with no firewalls (thats the university way...). Code Red II infection -before- windows finished installing. That means it was basically infected in a negative time. That's impressive!

    8. Re:Windows Beats Linux! by d_strand · · Score: 1

      I had the same problem about a month ago. I had to reinstall XP and was stupid enough to enable my internet connection before turning on XP's software firewall (I didnt have a real firewall... was going to download ZA but to do that I needed the internet :-)

      It took no more than 30 seconds before I had Blaster on my comp.

    9. Re:Windows Beats Linux! by son_of_asdf · · Score: 1

      Dammit, I wish I hadn't posted on this subject. Mod parent up, please.

      --
      Don't Panic!
    10. Re:Windows Beats Linux! by dustmite · · Score: 1

      After a clean install of Win2K+SP3, first thing I did online was a Windows Update. I was infected by a variant of Blaster before the update completed.

      Now I use NAT through a Linux box, which is already a lot safer. But what about all the "normal people" out there, the non-computer-experts who couldn't and shouldn't be bothered with having to know how to e.g. set up their own firewall? How can "normal users" even use Windows, it's almost impossible these days to not get a virus or worm of some sort unless you're a computer expert and willing to shell out extra $$ for firewalls or extra router/NAT systems etc.

  8. A good thing... by danielrm26 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's nice to see that SEL is being adopted by someone like Red Hat. I think this development will get more distros and organizations interested in using it, which will benefit the project greatly.

    Like it or not, Red Hat sets the tone in many ways, and in this case it's a good thing.

    --
    dmiessler.com -- grep understanding knowledge
    1. Re:A good thing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Expect to see it in other distros too because it's in the kernel. All that's needed by the distro is to enable it in the kernel and add the supporting tools from NSA. It's not a matter of Red Hat adopting it so much as it is a matter of it being native in 2.6.

      Capabilities is still in the kernel too. Take your pick.

  9. Get a Tech Writer Already by llouver · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "... the root had no IP address" presumably should have read "... root had no password" and the jump from the NSA developed SE Linux to the Eclipse IDE escapes me.

    1. Re:Get a Tech Writer Already by KrispyKringle · · Score: 1
      I think the point about Eclipse was supposed to be that an easy-to-use development platform ``take[s] the development of security off the shoulders of individual corporations and put it in the hands of the community at large.''

      Presumably Tiemann made this comment (a perfectly valid one, giving kudos to the Open Source community) at EclipseCon just to tie it in with SELinux, and the writer didn't really know how (in)significant this comment was.

    2. Re:Get a Tech Writer Already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm still not getting it. Does Eclipse utilize SE Linux module calls or create SE Linux policy files? In what way does Eclipse support/interact with SE Linux? Is the writer saying: I heard that Eclipse supports/aids secure programming and so I will mention it in this article which is describing an entirely different security issue because noone will know the difference.

    3. Re:Get a Tech Writer Already by KrispyKringle · · Score: 1
      But the point is that Michael Tiemann did bring it up first. The writer clearly doesn't understand the import of what Tiemann said, but it's still an accurate quote tying the two together (presumably).

      And, yeah, the implication was that Eclipse does create SELinux policy files, I think. I've never used SELinux, though, so I don't really know.

  10. Re:Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Looks like your spellchecker got rooted.

  11. Re:Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    ... And if the OS is secure, those vulnerable programs can't do any more damage than they should be allowed to do, even if they do get compromised.

  12. which is most secure by treat · · Score: 1

    What is the most secure Linux setup? SELinux, grsecurity or something else? Should I ignore these and put every daemon in a separate UserModeLinux jail?

    By secure I mean mitigating the likelyhood that any bug will allow an attacker to obtain root, remotely or locally.

    Ideally so secure that when properly (and strictly) configured no hole discovered in the past few years would have been exploitable.

    1. Re:which is most secure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      systrace.org is easy and efficient

    2. Re:which is most secure by Gunfighter · · Score: 1

      I've been toying with the UML jail concept recently, and I must say it looks great on paper. However, the setup and administration can be a real PITA.

      --
      -- Stu

      /. ID under 2,000. I feel old now.
    3. Re:which is most secure by Bobdoer · · Score: 1

      "What is the most secure Linux setup?" The one with no networking drivers? :)

    4. Re:which is most secure by -tji · · Score: 1

      User Mode Linux looks attractive.. In the past, I have used chroot jails to secure any network services that were externally accessible.

      But, that was a pain in the ass to set up and update. The server machine was stripped down, for security reasons. So, I had to build the application & updates on a seperate development machine. Then, copy the environment over. It was a painful process.. I couldn't just use updated packages from the project or linux distro. Of course, this leads to not staying up to date on all the updates... which is very bad for security.

      What would be nice is a self contained UML application image, where the whole basic OS is set up, and includes the desired application(s). Such as postfix, with Spamassassin. Updates would be created with this environment in mind.

    5. Re:which is most secure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      UML might "mitigate" security problems, but it's not really designed with security in mind -- it is possible to "break out" of the UML jail.

    6. Re:which is most secure by aled · · Score: 1

      The one with no inputs/outputs, if compromised (?) you don't care ;-)

      --

      "I think this line is mostly filler"
    7. Re:which is most secure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fine until a kenrel bug allows a user to map kernel memory

      once you have that you can do wtf you wan't

  13. smart policy by son_of_asdf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This, IMHO, is smart policy. What better way to find the holes in a distro than to co-opt the people most capable of exploiting them? Even at worst this will give the folks at RH a good idea of what exploits are going to be most frequently used against thier systems.

    Of course, the security of any system is dependant upon the admin and how he/she configures the software used on the system, but this at least will help to establish a baseline from which to work, and provides full disclosure of any inherent system vulnerabilities to the admins that work with the system.

    ...as an added bonus, this /. post will see how the system might stand up to a major bandwidth spike....

    --
    Don't Panic!
    1. Re:smart policy by Herrieman · · Score: 1

      There is no reason why the security of a system should be dependant on an admin.

      Software/Hardware should be secure by default, it should take a highly skilled admin to mess up the security of a system.

      --
      http://blog.astyran.sg
    2. Re:smart policy by wathead · · Score: 1

      I didnt read the article but I have read about SE Linux the module that was built by the NSA to run on a redhat 7.3 box. I was reading an article somewhere (I dont remember where) a while back. There was a guy who posted the IP address and the root password all he asked was not to DDos him. I dont think anyone ever got in the box.
      I read an article in a magizine about a simialer setup and the people trying to break the system locally where also given root.
      They did not believe that they where in fact root and it had to be proved to them.
      This may be a different form of SE linux.

    3. Re:smart policy by S.Lemmon · · Score: 1

      The only downside is it's not the know exploits that are the real danger - the really nefarious types who've found their own set of unknown pet exploits aren't going to waste them for something like this.

      In essence, it would probably only show up fairly common exploits that should have been already patched. While not completely useless, it may give people a false sense of security. No one who's tried may have found an exploit yet, but how does that old saw go? "Absence of proof is not proof of absence"

    4. Re:smart policy by son_of_asdf · · Score: 1

      This is a viable point, but one that I tried to address in my parent post; perhaps I was not clear:

      My impression is that some of the skilled white-hat types would see this as an interesting challenge, and would attempt to use/code the same sort of exploits that a nefarious user would employ. It is pure assumption on my part that this would be the case, but I think that it is also a reasonable assumption.

      In any case, this sort of testing can't hurt, and stands a good chance of showing the RH developers holes that they would have otherwise overlooked, whether they are canned or specially coded.

      --
      Don't Panic!
    5. Re:smart policy by son_of_asdf · · Score: 1

      Quite the contrary. In a perfect world a box would be capable of withstanding attack regardless of its configuration post-install. However, the moment an admin installs a bit of needed software for the environment in which he works, he is responsible for that software's influence on the box, particularly if the source code is freely available and user-patchable. Many of the PHP apps that are floating around and in common use are an excellent example: PHPNuke is frequently used, and is also as full of holes as a T-shirt that's been attacked with a 12-gauge. PHPMyAdmin in another excellent example of a useful, widely deployed program that can be VERY easily compromised.

      Distro developers like RH CANNOT be expected to code thier distros to cover situations like this: the sysadmin has to take responsibility for thier actions. Period.

      --
      Don't Panic!
  14. It is a Big Deal by llouver · · Score: 3, Informative

    Yes. But exploiting a bug in a particular application or service is only going to expose the data that application or service uses. In a SE Linux system, you don't gain root or system privileges by breaking an application or service since NONE of them run as root.

  15. 45 Seconds? by Eberlin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What happened? Someone ran a brute force root login with the pwlib dictionary or something? Maybe a quick ride with Nessus? Or was it a social engineer who managed to call someone and get the root password?

    As has been echoed before time and again -- security is a process, not a product. Of course you'll have more secure products, but it's still up to a competent admin to make sure things are kept secure. Even then, you better have good backups because that one disgruntled guy who works in the mailroom on a machine already inside the firewall just might have an extra ace up his sleeve.

    1. Re:45 Seconds? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I imagine it went like this:
      1) Install RedHat from CD
      2) Do not install any patches
      3) Join IRC channel to discuss how Linux is more secure than Windows.

    2. Re:45 Seconds? by Esion+Modnar · · Score: 1
      Or was it a social engineer who managed to call someone and get the root password?

      Unless they happen to have some back office numbers, they'd waste 45 seconds (more!) just navigating the voice answering system.
      And even without that, just the preliminaries of "hello, how are you, nice weather we're having, by the way what's the root password?" would take a couple minutes easy.

      I think any hacker worth his paranoia would stay far away from any openly advertised hackfest. A good (and at liberty) hacker is an anonymous hacker.

      --

      They say the first thing to go is your penis. Well, it's either that or your brain. I forget which...
    3. Re:45 Seconds? by kris · · Score: 1

      The standard way to get older RedHat boxen rooted is to put them on the internet with FTP services enabled. 45 seconds is actually quite long a time to last for such a machine.

  16. Re:Big Deal by Homology · · Score: 1
    Big deal - even if the core OS is completely secure, there are going to be programs and scripts with vulnerabilitys.

    Indeed, this is why we have projects like Hardened Gentoo where SELinux is just one part of it. Other technologies that attempt to make buffer overflows (among other things) very difficult/impossible to exploit is not included in SELinux, nor in Redhat.

  17. Re:Linux Defeated in Benchmarks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    In case anyone is wondering, he used the highly reliable Anonymous Coward Benchmarking Suite (TM).

  18. Technically Gutsy Move by deepbluegeek · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I dig engineering/development efforts that come out and dare people to break their 'stuff'. It takes cahoneys to do such a thing and pretty talented developers to back up such a stance. More power to em!

    1. Re:Technically Gutsy Move by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It takes cahoneys to do such a thing...

      I think you mean cojones. HTH HAND

  19. Re:Big Deal by Tim+C · · Score: 2, Informative

    Don't forget the users - most, if not all, of the fastest spreading Windows trojans and viruses of recent years have relied entirely on user-intervention.

    As long as a user can run arbitrary code that opens up network ports and sends data to arbitrary destinations, it will be difficult to completely secure a machine. Per-application egress filtering would go a long way to securing this, but I'm not aware of anything available for Linux that allows you to do so.

  20. Re:Linux Defeated in Benchmarks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    modded "interesting"...not only did people miss the joke, but they actually thought those numbers were anywhere near the truth?

  21. Re:Linux Defeated in Benchmarks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OH MY GOD, all these years, I've been totally blind!!

    Thank you for showing me the light. You've changed my life.

    Now.. where are those msdos floppies?

  22. Re:Linux Defeated in Benchmarks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What the hell did you pull these number out of?

    Copying a 50MB file (not in cache) from one partition to another (on the same harddisk) takes 4.66 seconds, including sync. P-III 500 with regular parallel ATA disk, Linux 2.4.20.

    So maybe I've been trolled. Just don't take these guys numbers for anything but shit.

  23. Nope, MYdoom counts on stupid users... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Nope, MYdoom counts on stupid users... yet another reason to license users.

  24. Other ways to improve Linux security? by Debian+Troll's+Best · · Score: 5, Insightful
    RedHat's 'trial by fire' approach for their new security policy is a good one, and is something all distro makers should try. Nothing beats having your default security config probed and tested by the world's best crackers in a real life environment. But network security is only one piece of the puzzle. As the Windows community has demonstrated time and time again, trojans and spyware can be just as dangerous from a security point of view as network exploits. And while the problem may not be as severe on Linux due to the separation of the root user from the average day-to-day account, havoc may still be wreaked by a regular user downloading a package and installing it, and thus inadvertently installing a trojan.

    It seems to me that our package managers (used by the majority of Linux users...not everyone compiles from source) are vulnerable to some type of subversion. They are not controlled or vetted by a central authority. There is no 'certificate' which can be attached to them to guarantee their purity. What the Linux community needs, I feel, is a type of central signing authority or cryptographically sealed DRM-compatible package management system. This could eliminate potential threats associated with trojaned Linux packages. Imagine a secure apt-get. Packages would be enveloped in a tough layer of crypt() security. They would be digitally signed by the Debian project manager, or even Ian Murdock for highly critical packages like the kernel. And it would be impossible to accidently load and install a trojan. Apt-get could even be modified to 'phone home' and let the Debian administrators know which packages where the most popular (and make security updating easier!) packages were being installed and to automatically e-mail users with news of package updates and 'special offers' from co-sponsors. I look forward to the community's response!

    1. Re:Other ways to improve Linux security? by diegocgteleline.es · · Score: 1

      There's a secure apt in development. Check apt 0.6.18 in experimental.

    2. Re:Other ways to improve Linux security? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you think the best crackers are tackling public projects like this then you must have brain damage.

    3. Re:Other ways to improve Linux security? by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 2, Insightful
      It seems to me that our package managers (used by the majority of Linux users...not everyone compiles from source) are vulnerable to some type of subversion.

      That's right. When you have piles of packages (source or binary) hosted on single servers run by the same group of people, you're making yourself a really tempting target. You don't even have to trojan a package - just find an exploit then DDOS the update servers so people can't access the fixed packages easily and you've bought yourself some time. As for large repositories of unsigned packages - let's not even go there.

      There is no 'certificate' which can be attached to them to guarantee their purity. What the Linux community needs, I feel, is a type of central signing authority or cryptographically sealed DRM-compatible package management system.

      No, the last thing Linux package management needs is more centralization. What we need is *less* centralization.

      How many times have you heard of Windows users being compromised by trojaned InstallShield Wizards? I'm not talking about binaries a virus has infected, I mean bent installers. I've never heard of such a thing. Even if it has happened (and I expect it has a few times), it's a very hard way to infect somebodies system because you have to compromise a server, rebuild the installer somehow and then you only manage to get one package which may or may not be run by lots of people anytime soon.

      What Linux package management needs to be more secure is for projects to host their own binary packages as they do for source packages. That way if/when breakins occur, the damage is at least limited.

      And it would be impossible to accidently load and install a trojan.

      I think this is wrong- if upstream is trojaned you are still screwed. Packagers don't audit the code, you know.

    4. Re:Other ways to improve Linux security? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What makes you think the world's best crackers give a shit about this contest? Cracking contests are not trial by fire or real world. They are controlled. Putting the server into production is trial by fire. That's why, as you say, the windows community finds the unexpected in production. Crackers who want a leg up can grab the betas, test in their own labs without revealing their IP addresses to the contest site, keep their results to themselves, and hope nobody else notices the hole before the system is deployed on a few thousand production sites. See these responses to another poster.

      Cracking contests are nothing more than publicity stunts.

    5. Re:Other ways to improve Linux security? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      What makes you think the world's best crackers give a shit about this contest?

      I'm the world's best cracker, and I'm fucking excited about this contest. Now I'm going to hack your damned fucking faggot Windows ME box and teach you a lesson.

    6. Re:Other ways to improve Linux security? by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

      Crackers who want a leg up can grab the betas, test in their own labs without revealing their IP addresses to the contest site, keep their results to themselves, and hope nobody else notices the hole before the system is deployed on a few thousand production sites

      Their private lab?

      Heh.

      Do they wear white lab coats, too? And do they have chalkboards? And do they work in half-darkness, and have lots of green blinky lights? Does their lab have a big red hologram projector?

      Blanket statements about crackers are impossible to make. Crackers vary as much as people that use computers vary. The technically most competent crackers are probably systems people working in security. There are a lot of hobbyists with a serious interest in security.

    7. Re:Other ways to improve Linux security? by 0x0d0a · · Score: 2, Interesting

      When you have piles of packages (source or binary) hosted on single servers run by the same group of people, you're making yourself a really tempting target.

      You know, you probably *are* right -- the FSF's archives didn't get broken into for no reason.

      However, I think that other avenues are more appealing.

      Think about the number of packages in a typical Linux distro. There are a lot -- I currently have about eleven hundred packages installed. Assume that each project has an average of two people with CVS commit access. Many projects do not have rigorous revies of all commits. If someone can compromise the computer of *any* of these 2200 developers and slip a subtle hole in. If someone can submit a patch with a hard-to-find hole, how likely is it that they can manage to slip it in eventually? If they do an anonymous submission, they can keep hammering software projects with evil patches. I have no idea who maintains, say, gkrellm, but how do I know that he's good at ensuring that UNIX software is secure and back-door-free?

      Red Hat probably puts a phenomenal amount of work into securing their distribution servers. A single developer's workstation would be a lot easier to compromise.. Package management is a weakness in that it instroduces a new person with the ability to produce a malicious package -- the packager.

      No, the last thing Linux package management needs is more centralization. What we need is *less* centralization.

      I cannot agree. Mike, I agree with your technical goals in package management (and respect the work that you've done), but I don't find this to be a security argument. A system such as this is weakest-link. Only one system involved in the production, building, and distribution of software must be compromised for the end user's systems to be compromised. More decentralization means more systems to potentially be a weakest link.

      What Linux package management needs to be more secure is for projects to host their own binary packages as they do for source packages. That way if/when breakins occur, the damage is at least limited.

      Mmmf. I can't agree. At least with the RH/Fedora model, there is a long (months long) QA process run on the software ahead of time. If software projects have the power to push updates to the masses without QA...they could cause all *kinds* of problems. Currently, they have only the power to push updates to Red Hat.

      If software projects provided eDonkey links or similar, so that a cryptographic hash of the file is in the wild, that *would* be one more guarantee of security.

      Packagers don't audit the code, you know.

      In general, you're right, but RH has pushed security patches to projects before.
      Bandwidth issues.

    8. Re:Other ways to improve Linux security? by 0x0d0a · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Darn, I forgot to include the tidbit that I really *did* want to include, given who you are.

      There is a way that Linux packaging could be used to improve security. Current state-of-the-art Linux packaging systems pretty much operate in "install as root". There's a script run that runs as root and has the ability to do anything. It would be helpful if, packages could contain a standard way of denoting the privileges that a package requires to be installed. (A package manager could place restrictions on what is allowed.) Package managers currently provide very minimal or nonexistant sandboxing capabilities.

      For example, perhaps I do not want to allow an installer to create any SUID files, since I don't want more floating around on my system. Perhaps I want to prevent an installer from modifying any existing files, and only adding the files specified in the package requirements. Perhaps I want to *require* that all executable files be SUID/SGID a new user with no remote login requirements. Perhaps I want to require that all executables that the package installs be started with a limited set of POSIX capabilities.

      Why is this a big deal? Because it's technically possible to produce a sandbox that will let me run and poke at code from a random person on IRC. But no package managers currently do so. It's technically possible to ensure that more SUID binaries don't pop up on my system -- since SUID binaries are one of the few potential security holes on a UNIX system, I'd like to avoid installing any if possible -- but I cannot do so. It's technically possible to force all installed binaries to run SUID/SGID/chrooted. It's possible to ask that packages not touch any system-critical files -- initscripts, PAM, kernel, etc. Basically, when I recieve an RPM currently, I have two choices. I can su to root and install the RPM, giving the install script and package complete and total control over the system. Any malicious stuff in the package or bugs could blow away my system. I can try installing the thing with a different RPM database as a user with different prefixes, but it's a royal pain. I can choose not to install the package. And those are my only real options.

    9. Re:Other ways to improve Linux security? by FeeDBaCK · · Score: 1
      RedHat's 'trial by fire' approach for their new security policy is a good one, and is something all distro makers should try. Nothing beats having your default security config probed and tested by the world's best crackers in a real life environment.

      Gentoo did this a while back when they first were implementing the Hardened project. The guys in the project setup a SELinux hardened Gentoo box and put it live on the 'net. They then gave out the IP address and the root password on the main Gentoo page.


      What the Linux community needs, I feel, is a type of central signing authority or cryptographically sealed DRM-compatible package management system. This could eliminate potential threats associated with trojaned Linux packages.

      There is currently development in place with Gentoo's portage to allow for developers to digitally sign packages. There will also be a central signing authority for the entire distribution. It is still in the planning and discussion phase, but we are shooting for inclusion in portage-ng, the next major upgrade of the portage code-base. You can find more information about portage-ng here.

      --
      wolf31o2 Developer, Gentoo Linux Games Team
    10. Re:Other ways to improve Linux security? by panoplos · · Score: 1

      um... perhaps you have never used a system other than Debian?

      RedHat uses GPG signing of all the packages they distribute.
      Mandrake does as well.
      Most RPM-based distros do, for that matter.

      Gentoo uses MD5 checksums to insure the integrity of the Portage ebuild packages and source files.

      While I am not attempting to play down your suggestions, your assertions that "our package managers ... are not controlled or vetted by a central authority" are blatantly false.

    11. Re:Other ways to improve Linux security? by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1
      Yeah. We've talked around this issue in autopackage, we had some plans for sandboxing and such but then I discovered SELinux and realised that this is probably a smarter way to do security on Linux. It it entirely capabilities based, so you can define exactly what a process (and it's children) can and cannot do. If you don't want an installer to be able to create suid binaries, you can prevent that.

      At least this is the theory. I have no idea if SELinux actually is that fine grained, but I expect it could be made so if not. You could then assign sandboxed permissions to an installer.

      One issue is that in autopackage each installer/.package file is actually what runs the installation process, there is no supervisor process like in RPM, so you'd have to remember to use one explicitly. While we could of course make a .package file surrender itself to such a supervisor process, that wouldn't be reliable as the code to do it could always be hacked out by the malevolent packager. An interesting problem for sure.

      BTW I read and inwardly digested your other comments too. I'm still pondering them... it's certainly not a black and white issue.

  25. Re:Big Deal by burns210 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    yes, but a good core OS will limit the damage any 1 program can do... A common argument about windows is that it itself is secure, however the programs that run it(drivers/applications/etc) are insecure. In actuallity, even with a buggy/trojan program being run, a good OS would not allow it to reak havic on much of the system, let alone crash the entire computer.

  26. Re:Linux Defeated in Benchmarks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hate to feed the trolls but 2.7 isn't even out yet. Making up kernel releases makes you look stupid. On top of that, your numbers are fucking insane.

  27. YHBT YHL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    HAND!

  28. All PR and no substance. . . .again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So now Red Hat is using the tired and cliche approach of getting PR by hosting a cracker contest. You would think that they'd have learned from previous examples. Just because a system hasn't been defeated in a cracker contest doesn't mean its secure. Security is a process not something you can shrinkwrap. The proper way to demonstrate the security of a product is through repeated, thorough code audits like some other software distributions are doing. Things must be looking dire indeed for Redhat if they're starting to make announcements of products like this ala another company we know and love.

    1. Re:All PR and no substance. . . .again by iggymanz · · Score: 2, Informative

      code audits are just one piece of security testing.....there's plenty of flaws that have been found in all major OS trying to break systems just by throwing different things at it. Being an OpenBSD fan, I see problem found where ICMPv6 on a listened tcp port can crash the 3.4 as version as found on distribution CD. Cracking contests are great for PR, true, but also yet another way to test security. Only relying on code audits is the same as trying to design aircraft by textbook only without ever doing wind tunnel test.

    2. Re:All PR and no substance. . . .again by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      >>>So now Red Hat is using the tired and cliche approach of getting PR by hosting a cracker contest.

      And what's wrong with that?

      >>>You would think that they'd have learned from previous examples. Just because a system hasn't been defeated in a cracker contest doesn't mean its secure.

      Corrent, but it goes to try to prove the Monkey-Typewriter theory. If there's a problem in the policies/exploit somone's bound to catch it sometime. However, you can log all CURRENT exploits found in that and try to create a secure base.

      >>>Security is a process not something you can shrinkwrap. The proper way to demonstrate the security of a product is through repeated, thorough code audits like some other software distributions are doing.

      How is Fedora's code NOT being put through repeated code audits? Any time any developer on that project finds a problem in their own section ( or in th whole), they usually submit a bug patch to fix the unwanted action.

      >>>Things must be looking dire indeed for Redhat if they're starting to make announcements of products like this ala another company we know and love.

      What's wrong with demo machines? I sure wouldnt buy a product you cant demo first.

      Anyways, what do you know. You're an anonymous coward....

      --
    3. Re:All PR and no substance. . . .again by son_of_asdf · · Score: 1

      Don't be an ass. I detect a bit of a chip on your shoulder, perhaps some of the knee-jerk "RH is for noobs, all of these kids should be using Slakware compiled totally from source," sort of attitude.

      ...oh wait, this is /. .....please excuse me while I take the hook out of my cheek.

      --
      Don't Panic!
    4. Re:All PR and no substance. . . .again by aled · · Score: 1

      Ha! you show what a quiche eater are you; real programmers hand-code their kernels in machine language from the printed source code.

      --

      "I think this line is mostly filler"
    5. Re:All PR and no substance. . . .again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it's not exploitable with a listening tcp port. It's a bug that can be exploited (not a security risk, just a DoS) that can ONLY be exploited via ICMPv6 AND if the host has a listening TCPv6 port open AND a public IPv6 address (if used over the internet).

      So in short, it's really nothing of worry to a lot of people. Besides, there's a patch out...

      It's just unfortunate that a lot of people on ./ don't have the knowledge to understand this.

      PS: Good reply you did; I couldn't agree with you more.

    6. Re:All PR and no substance. . . .again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the original point is still valid. 1,000,000 l33t k|ddi3z blowing the same three 0day sploits at a contest box doesn't demonstrate the security of the product, and yet the companies that subscribe to the idea of "hacker contests" will turn around and say "Secure after 1,000,000 Hack Attacks".

      Real security comes through a process that starts with a security-conscious design and is perpetuated with proper code audits. And no, a bunch of contributors going through and fixing functionality bugs is *NOT* analogous to a security audit. Security is hard stuff and it requires a certain mindset to go in and audit a code base for security.

      No system will ever be secure there are always lurking bugs that can become the next big security issue, but the likelihood is lessened dramatically by a proper implimentation of the above process.

    7. Re:All PR and no substance. . . .again by son_of_asdf · · Score: 1

      Touche'..............

      bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

      --
      Don't Panic!
    8. Re:All PR and no substance. . . .again by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

      Yes, but high-profile cracker contests are easy to sell to PHBs. Heck, I don't care. RH does a decent job WRT basic security, and if this will sway a couple of PHBs from using Windows seats, I say that this marketing campaign will actually have had a positive impact on Internet security.

      Folks in the security industry are hardly going to care much one way or another about Red Hat's latest ad campaign. They know how Red Hat has done. They aren't going to be particularly interested in OBSD's "remote root in N years" claim, because, yes, I can make a no remote root system too, by running a minimal box. They know the good points and the bad points of the system *already*, and they frequently aren't the high-profile claims made.

      How many car nuts are likely to care what the latest ad campaign for a particular company says? Nothing, because they care about the product, not the ad compaign.

  29. eureka. by xeeno · · Score: 2, Funny

    1. Release OS for years filled with security holes
    2. Stop releasing OS for free
    3. Sell security based OS
    4. ?????
    5. Profit!

  30. This is the right question by Animats · · Score: 4, Interesting
    With mandatory security with levels and compartments going mainstream, we need apps designed to use it properly.

    Mail handling is a good example. Each receive process should be running in a separate jail, with a net connection to the incoming port, a limited connection to the mail database, and no privilege to open files or network connections. Then it doesn't matter what happens in the receive process.

    The software that passes data across security boundaries has to be carefully written and audited. But it doesn't have to do much. Software has to be divided into two kinds - big, untrusted programs that do the work, and little, carefully audited security-critical programs that do very little.

    The job of the OS is to keep each program in its own security box.

    Mail, DNS, and web servers need to be broken up in this way. Now that Red Hat is going with SE Linux, it's time to do this. Get busy.

    1. Re:This is the right question by Coryoth · · Score: 1

      Mail, DNS, and web servers need to be broken up in this way. Now that Red Hat is going with SE Linux, it's time to do this. Get busy.

      Indeed. All the hooks are there, they just need to be used. NSA has kindly provided an SSH implementation that uses SELinux properly. Hopefully it won't be too long before we can see mainstream software (finally) start using this now that SELinux is going mainstream.

      This is security done right people! Nothing is perfect, but this is lightyears ahead of security now. We need to take advantage of it.

      Jedidiah.

    2. Re:This is the right question by Leper · · Score: 1

      Sure, but portability is still a problem.
      http://cr.yp.to/unix/disablenetwork.html

    3. Re:This is the right question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In addition, there is no reason why the entire email app needs to run as the user it works for. It should run under "$username-mail" and only have access to one folder on the disk - where it stores it's email.

      (Of course, attaching files would be a bit problematic, but heh, if you attach often files and send them away, you are using the wrong medium anyway...)

      Tels

    4. Re:This is the right question by Isomer · · Score: 1

      There are two types of program, one thats so simple there are obviously no bugs, and one that's so complex, there are no obvious bugs.

    5. Re:This is the right question by jsebrech · · Score: 1

      qmail is broken up into several processes, each running in their own user account. It's very secure. Too bad it has an anal license and so can't be distributed with distro's.

      My isp runs it to do the mail account of hundreds of thousands of customers. Mail service has always been smooth.

  31. Re:Big Deal by Muggins+the+Mad · · Score: 1

    As long as a user can run arbitrary code that opens up network ports and sends data to arbitrary destinations, it will be difficult to completely secure a machine. Per-application egress filtering would go a long way to securing this, but I'm not aware of anything available for Linux that allows you to do so.


    Um, SE Linux :)

    At least it goes a way towards this. Combined with some good iptables rules (possibly dynamic?) you could get a pretty good system.

    Executed mail attachments not having access to address book or network, for example.

    - Colin
  32. 45 seconds in 1999 by miffo.swe · · Score: 1

    That is five years ago just so you know.

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
    1. Re:45 seconds in 1999 by Rejemy · · Score: 2, Funny

      We had much better seconds, back in those days.

    2. Re:45 seconds in 1999 by Pros_n_Cons · · Score: 1

      Sounds like it was around the statd exploit days. There was exploits released and flying around ALOT for that.

      --

      -- "of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller
  33. So.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone know the IP in question?

    1. Re:So.... by dekashizl · · Score: 4, Funny

      Anyone know the IP in question?

      It's 127.0.0.1. If you do manage to break in, see if you can find any interesting files, and go ahead and post them up here.

    2. Re:So.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IT'S TEH 127.0.0.1

      OMLOL I MAED FUNAY computar joek!!!!!!1111 lol mabey u liek

    3. Re:So.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      d00d, I l1ke w3nt t0 that 5it3 and th3 l337 h4x0rz alr3ady ha|) my ph1lez!!!

      I b3t th3y're s0 g00d that th3y'll h4v3 ur ph1l3z too!!!11!!!!!! Ch3ck 0u7 127.0.0.1 --- th053 d00dz r 1337!

    4. Re:So.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I went and hacked it ... but why is Red Hat serving up a collection of animal porn?

    5. Re:So.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      localghost

    6. Re:So.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > > Anyone know the IP in question?
      > It's 127.0.0.1. If you do manage to break in, see
      > if you can find any interesting files, and go
      > head and post them up here.

      I managed to rlogin to that server. Man, they have a really stupid root password. Anyway, I decided to tech them a lesson by running, "rm -rf /". It's a test system, right? What could possibly !@#&!@()*#&(*!@#&(!*@#&*(!@#(*&amp ; DISCONNECTED

    7. Re:So.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It's 127.0.0.1. If you do manage to break in, see if you can find any interesting files, and go ahead and post them up here.

      d00d, I broke in and installed a webserver. Look at all the cool stuff I've found.

      w00t

    8. Re:So.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's weird. When I scan it, I get back lots of open ports, but I don't see any network activity on my hub.

  34. Insightful? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Many distributions already use signing for packages. And the stuff about DRM and spyware is blatant trolling; try to be a little more subtle next time.

    1. Re:Insightful? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was subtle enough to get by the moderators, but I guess that's not saying much. Anyone notice that there's more retarded moderation on the weekends than during the week?

  35. Re:Linux Defeated in Benchmarks by DrLZRDMN · · Score: 1

    wtf is a 'Mebibyte'

  36. Out of the Box? by bluewee · · Score: 0

    Was this out of the box security, or after they put up a few firewalls, routers and setup some iptables?

    --
    [blue] - The Ministry of Information approved this message...
  37. YHBT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    YHL HAND

  38. Re:Big Deal by Haeleth · · Score: 1

    even with a buggy/trojan program being run, a good OS would not allow it to reak havic on much of the system, let alone crash the entire computer.

    Ultimately there is no defense against a privileged idiot typing "cd /; sudo rm -rf *".

    Oh, sure, if the user doesn't have any administrative privileges, that sort of thing basically prevented, but most of the Windows installations that catch all these email trojans are home setups, not big corporations. I would seriously like to hear someone tell me how a home Linux installation can be made idiot-proof, short of some clueful person giving up a lot of their spare time to do administrative stuff.

    All it would take to bring down Fred "The guy in Walmart said Linux was cheaper" would be *one* fake email saying "you have a DEADLY VIRUS; to remove it open a Konsole and type the following [evil] commands, entering your root password when prompted"...

  39. red switch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Red Hat discovered that the vunerability in the first version was tied to a switch on the back of the computer. The new version has this in the 'off' position by default.

  40. Re:Linux Defeated in Benchmarks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    mebibyte=1024 kibibytes=1024^2 bytes
    megabyte=1000 kilobytes=1000^2 bytes

  41. Re:yhbt yhl hand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know you're a fucking troll. I'm criticizing your technique. This is not a 'victory' for you.

  42. now or later? by crabpeople · · Score: 2, Interesting
    if you actually did find a hole, wouldnt it be lot more profitable to wait till the os is deployed worldwide and then exploit it?

    i didnt RTFA but the blurb said nothing of compensation if someone did crack it. IF there is a bounty, im sure its not as much as one would make cracking a bank a year from now.

    --
    I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
    1. Re:now or later? by BiggerIsBetter · · Score: 1

      Well, given that this is supposed to be a Fedora prelude, and given that Fedora is supposed to be a RedHat ES/AS/WS prelude, I'd say the "bounty" is theirs when they get to market it commercially as "un-crackable".

      Or maybe I'm just cynical.

      --
      Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
  43. Re:Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No defense? What if the concept of root is eliminated?

  44. Terrible name by PacoTaco · · Score: 1

    Would you like Security-Enhanced or our regular Shitty-Security product?

    1. Re:Terrible name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      are you really that ignorant? does your home have a bank vault security system? why not? Use your head for something besides a hat rack!

  45. what part of YHL do you not understand? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you took the bait, therefore you LOSE

    SMOKE MY COCK, YOU NIGGER

  46. Illogical by Azureflare · · Score: 1
    You cannot say it is no more secure than windows. Linux adds another layer of defense (i.e. the user has to give the trojan a password) This isn't a perfect solution, but don't you agree it's better than nothing?

    Saying linux is no more secure than windows implies that linux gives no advantages over windows against trojans. By your own argument, this is a false statement.

    A true (IMO) statement is "Linux is not much more secure than windows against trojans." This is true in any operating system. Trojans tend to rely on the stupidity of the user, which I venture to say is nearly universal.

    As a side note and completely unrelated to the parent, it still amazes me that people with any ounce of knowledge would open an attachment claiming to be an email in binary form. What are you going to do, read a bunch of 1's and 0's?? Come on people!

    1. Re:Illogical by shird · · Score: 1

      The user does not have to supply the password, the trojan should be able to do all the above without root access.

      Just the same as under windows with the admin/user accounts.

      I was just showing that the trojan could even get root access if it wanted to - with the amount of local root exploits it probably wouldn't even need a password. Windows however has very few local root exploits because it doesn't use setuid.

      --
      I.O.U One Sig.
    2. Re:Illogical by Ben+Hutchings · · Score: 1

      That doesn't mean the local root vulnerability isn't there.

  47. Re:Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ultimately there is no defense against a privileged idiot

    Hey! You leave GWB out of this!

  48. hey troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is there any other desktop OS as secure as most Linux distributions? I think not. Hmmm..... there is the Microsoft OS that still has numerous known vulnerabilities, yet still isn't patched.

    1. Re:hey troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder why people think the securing the boxes is only patching. Wise hardening removes the urgent need for that. E.g for a person who knows what to do it is quite easy to do a Windows box which doesn't need any patches and still is resistant against published sploits.
      (Yes, I do know this is posted as Anon, but don't see any need to register to the system where Linux fanatics even don't want to listen something that is against their thinking model)

  49. Re:yhbt yhl hand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You obviously don't understand trolling. YOU REPLIED -- the troll WON. YHBT, YHL, HAND.

  50. Note by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    That last sentence should read:

    "In a SE Linux system, you don't gain root or system privileges by breaking an application or service since NONE of them should run as root.

    Note that there are really really really dumb users out there (and dumb distro makers) who make the user root (Lindows, others), and thereby make it essentially like windows, taking away user-level security.

    Anyway, people should use mandrake because it's superior to lindows et. al.

    Long live mandrake!

    1. Re:Note by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, the idea in SELinux is sort of that you can't run the services as root, since there's no root to run as. It's all quite complicated but the bottom line is that every service will be confined to its own little world without the ability to break out.

  51. Re:Linux Defeated in Benchmarks by diegocgteleline.es · · Score: 1

    Wow, impressive. And that without benchmarking with the DOS Server version you probably have.

  52. YHBT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    YHL!

    HAND!

  53. Obligatory MP quote by acidrain69 · · Score: 1

    King of Swamp Castle: When I first came here, this was all swamp. Everyone said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built in all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. And that one sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, and then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Son, the strongest castle in all of England.

    replace "castle" with "linux distribution" and it almost makes sense. Kind of. It makes more sense if you also change "swamp" to "red"

    --
    -- Having a Creationist Museum is like having an Atheist place of worship
    1. Re:Obligatory MP quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. That's how Windows became so bloated, and Linux will be too. How about starting with a clean sheet of paper, so to speak, and designing it right to begin with. Getting your stuff to run on top of several castles worth of rubble is bloat. An example of something designed with a relatively clean sheet of paper is MozillaFirebird. (IMHO) It's all in one directory, so us Damn Small Linux users have a ball with it. The name of the game at DSL is "restore", and with Moz, we have it made.

  54. Default in Fedora? Excellent! by Coryoth · · Score: 2

    Having SELinux security policies the default security set up is a positively excellent idea. I was hoping some distros would do this (hopefully eventually all), but Fedora is a good start.

    SELinux really does make huge strides in securing a system, providing the policy is set up well (for which there are some tools, but a good default from distros will help immensely). Sure, no system is unbreakable, but SELinux is vastly ahead of anything else out there right now. The more boxes out there secured like this there are, the stronger Linux's claims of truly superior security. Windows really does have absolutely nothing even remotely comparable to SELinux right now.

    Jedidiah.

    1. Re:Default in Fedora? Excellent! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Windows really does have absolutely nothing even remotely comparable to SELinux right now.

      So true... We tried last year to find products for this kind of things for all our plaforms. We had several candidates for Linux, both commercial and opensource. We found a couple of things for commercial Unixes but for Windows the only thing remotely related was Computer Associates' eTrust Access Control.

      It was too remotely related for our taste. And it was very expensive. But I think we would have paid the tag if it really was like SELinux.

      But it wasn't...

  55. Out of box Security by niko9 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    2 questions:

    Anybody have more info as to why the last machine was compromised in 45 seconds?

    Anybody know of a guide for the Linux beginer on how to secure (shutting down services not needed for a desktop machine, in an easy to understand way)a out-of-the-box desktop system??

    1. Re:Out of box Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      For a desktop system? No open ports for starters!
      netstat -atun
      See anything? Close it! Use lsof to find out what program has each port open. Go through the rc scripts to find out how to keep that program from starting at boot. You don't need inetd or xinetd. Uninstall them, or don't even install them to begin with. Ditto for anything else you don't need, whether or not it's a network daemon. Don't choose the "EVERYTHING" option at install time!!

      That's just for starters so you can start shutting down and uninstalling what you don't need while looking for a lockdown guide.
  56. Redhat Publishes IP by m1kesm1th · · Score: 4, Funny

    from: root@redhat
    to: groups@l33tscript3rs.org
    subject: hack da gibson

    Hackable Server, come hack me plz. IP: 127.0.0.1


    1. Re:Redhat Publishes IP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any serious hacker wouldnt need the IP. He could just take it from the mail header!

    2. Re:Redhat Publishes IP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      omfg, I ssh'd to a redhat box at 127.0.0.1, typed in root for username and tried my own password as a joke and I got in!!!

      OMFG, I'm so 1337! Whoever says RH users are just newbies and/or amateurs are smoking too much crack! I 0wn this box now!

      Yes, I'm a RH god. I'm now pointing and clicking my way around the filesystem. I swear this looks and feels just like my 1337 MS box.

      This is more brain dead, user friendly, insecure than MS Windows and I love it cause I feel warm and fuzzy inside.

      I'm going to DoS this 127.0.0.1 host now... Sorry RH but your box is now mine!

  57. Security is too expensive? by Emor+dNilapasi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "But vendors and IT decision-makers widely believe it is too expensive to implement these more hacker-resistant security models, he [Tiemann] said."

    So let me get this straight: US industry alone spent around half a billion buckaroonies cleaning up the last little virus/worm fiasco, we get about a half-dozen or so of these little gems per year, and yet it's TOO EXPENSIVE(tm) to engineer in security that would stop this kind of thing from happening?

    So tell me, just who are these "vendors and IT decision-makers"? Or, to rephrase the question, just who are these drooling, incompetent, feeble-minded idiots who understand so little about security and the consequences of its failure? I'm asking because I want to make sure that i never, ever use (or heaven forbid, purchase!) any product that they have had anything to do with.

    Mr. Tiemann, please tell us, did some people actually say this? Really? Because if so, we need to know which products, companies, and idiots to avoid. And I want some of what they're smoking.

    1. Re:Security is too expensive? by ozbird · · Score: 1

      So let me get this straight: US industry alone spent around half a billion buckaroonies cleaning up the last little virus/worm fiasco, we get about a half-dozen or so of these little gems per year, and yet it's TOO EXPENSIVE(tm) to engineer in security that would stop this kind of thing from happening?

      Yes, but look at who's paying: US industry paying $$$ to clean up, vs. Microsoft R&D paying $$$ to fix the problem properly. Is in any wonder that Microsoft isn't interested in doing so, particularly when they can use it as a lever to force upgrades to new versions of its software?

    2. Re:Security is too expensive? by securitas · · Score: 1


      You have to remember that the people who are making the decisions are more concerned with risk-assessment, risk management, and the bottom line than with security.

      They take their chances and play the odds. They calculate the likelihood of an attack or breach over a given period of time, figure out what it would cost, calculate the potential repair cost, and if the repair cost is less than the cost of securing their systems, then they go with the leave-it-to-chance model.

      The majority of breaches go unreported. Part of what companies count on is people not finding out. When was the last time you heard about a network security breach at a bank? They happen, but we just don't hear about them. If word got out about this sort of thing more often then perhaps the attitude would be different.

      It's a stupid way to do business because the real cost is the damage to a company's brand and the loss of confidence customers. Those are intangibles that become very tangible when you see the result on the bottom line.

  58. Someone is just by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

    Some already cracked this new one, but since its such an obscure hack, they are waiting till its released and adopted and then they can control the world! (in Slashdot's mind)

  59. funny.. by arabagast · · Score: 0

    Funny this that it`s always a shitload of drunken comments on slashdot on saturday nights.. Wonder why :)

    --
    Doolittle : ...What is your one purpose in life?
    Bomb no.20 : To explode of course.
  60. Too much security for you! by menscher · · Score: 4, Informative
    Pardon the "Hackers" joke, but please keep in mind that a Trusted OS (B-level in the orange book) is very different from the standard C-level security we're all used to. While it's good to see linux developing a trusted version, I am concerned about introducing this to the masses. It's going to confuse the heck out of most users, and probably many admins. Up until reading this story I was a strong supporter of Fedora. Now I'm a little nervous.

    Anyone care to share their experiences with SELinux?

    1. Re:Too much security for you! by thayner · · Score: 1

      Depends a great deal on the specifics of course, but in a lot of cases, it's going to be as simple as rpm --install apache-selinux and it'll just work (with the protection being entirely unnoticably as the application will have all the rights it's needs (it just won't have access to rights it doesn't need and pose as bad a security risk as previously).

    2. Re:Too much security for you! by Coryoth · · Score: 1

      I played with it for a while, but was having too much trouble getting X to run due to the default policies (which are designed for servers, reasonably enough), and had to give it away for what was, at the time, my workstation. The console can do a lot, especially with emacs at the ready, but eventually you start to need X again, and policy hacking was a little beyond what I had time for.

      As for how it was to use generally? Pretty transparent for the user. A few basic tools had SELinux equivalents, but they weren't required - things like a new ls that listed the fine grain access controls on files etc. The rest was very straightforward - the only serious to normal Linux difference was having to log in with a role.

      As to the security policies - I did play a little, but that was rather more complicated, and while I learned the basics, I didn't really have the time or the inclination to get into the messy details required to (for instance) make X work.

      I see now, however, that there are GUI tools (http://www.tresys.com/selinux/selinux_policy_tool s.html) to set up your policy. Also, presumably most of the work of getting this into Fedora (given the SElinux is pretty much integrated into 2.6 via the LSM framework) is setting up good default security policies.

      I had been tempted to go back and try and get a good working policy for, especially with the previously mentioned policy writing tools, but with the prospect of Fedora starting out with a good fairly user oriented policy to work from - I may just wait till Fedora Core 2 comes out of beta and use that.

      I'm all for SELinux. Having played with it a little, and come to understand some of the basics of what it is doing, and how well it works, the sooner it is the default in _all_ distributions the better off we will be.

      Jedidiah.

    3. Re:Too much security for you! by 0x0d0a · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, I'd expect it to be a real pain in the ass to get X working. The structure of X is really awful from the standpoint of a secure system. (This is not to say that XFree86 is particularly insecure, but that current implementations of this type of software aren't particularly secure).

      Among the other security issues with XFree86:

      * Runs as root. On UNIX, this is a big sin. On traditional UNIX systems, and still with most Linux systems (POSIX capabilities are one way around this), root can do anything. If you can compromise XFree, you can compromise anything. Not only that, but XFree does not drop privileges -- the whole damn thing runs with elevated privilege.

      * Any user that sits down locally can use the thing. It's easy to interface with.

      * By default, most systems listen for incoming connections. If you can exploit the auth system, you control a root daemon remotely.

      * There are many ways to authorize to the thing (xauth, xhost, etc). It is easy to turn off authorization, and many people (disturbingly many) do so.

      * There are many ways to communicate with the thing (UNIX domain sockets, TCP). XFree is not small and simple and easy to check for flaws.

      * XFree talks directly to hardware. Aside from the OS, it mucks with all kinds of things that might be exploitable.

      * XFree is a major attack path for monitoring user input.

      * XFree is responsible for displaying a login screen (and accepting username and password).

      * XFree does not natively encrypt remote connections, though many people now use ssh's tunneling abilities.

      * XFree is decidedly vulnerable to traffic analysis.

      XFree is pretty bad from a security standpoint, and almost anathema to a trusted system. That's not a stab at XFree -- many decisions have been made in favor of simplicity, stability, and performance, and lots of other remote access systems aren't great from a security standpoint either. If X had been built as a secure system, it'd be a lot less usable for general purpose stuff. It would be the single thing that I would first remove from a system that *must* remain secure.

  61. the chances? not good... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    come on genious... the chances are low because of how long its remained secure, jackass.

  62. Re:Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    d00d you gots to get your chill on. Just becuase you can't spell properly doesn't mean that it's ok to just post whatever the fuck you want. Have some decency man!

  63. Re: SELinux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, I'd have to agree with you there, mostly.

    SEBSD (a direct port of the SELinux code) is available for FreeBSD via the TrustedBSD Mandatory Access Control framework. Linux and FreeBSD are both going to kick everyone else's asses in the security department.

  64. Not necessarily true. by Doktor+Memory · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There have been exploitable buffer overflows in (going from memory here) PINE, MetaMail and Mutt, all of which in theory could allow a trojan email to be sent to a unix user, and none of which required clicking on an executable.

    Are you willing to warrant that there are no such holes in Evolution, Thunderbird or KMail?

    --

    News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters? Like hell.

    1. Re:Not necessarily true. by Xpilot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There have been exploitable buffer overflows in going from memory here) PINE, MetaMail and Mutt, all of which in theory could allow a trojan email to be sent to a unix user, and none of which required clicking on an executable.

      Are you willing to warrant that there are no such holes in Evolution, Thunderbird or KMail?


      All very true. However, for a virus such as mydoom to spread like wildfire and do the DDoS damage it was designed to do, it needs to acheive a "critical mass" that can only be acheived through homegeneity which Windows provides. Sure there are some clueless Linux users using unpatched Pine, Mutt, but they all have *different* vulnerabilities, and a single worm or virus could not propogate quickly using the same method.

      --
      "Backups are for wimps. Real men upload their data to an FTP site and have everyone else mirror it." -- Linus Torvalds
    2. Re:Not necessarily true. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "PINE, MetaMail and Mutt,...Evolution, Thunderbird or KMail?"

      And you expect someone to write a virus/worm, that is not only OS independend, but also email-client independed, possible bringing it's own exploit database, or downloads them from the 'net?

      Hell, even when I _want_ to install a program I often fail, missing dependencies, wrong version, incompatibilities, outdated stuff, crashes, etc.

      I fully expect some virus to hit the 1 Migibyte border then...

      Right now most of the virus code doesn't even cover all MS versions, let alone *BSD; Linux, Mac etc.

      However, you are partly right: people get send a cute program, execute the game and forward it, blissly unaware. Seen last week at work :-(((

      Best wishes,

      Tels

  65. all I found was porn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and it's all stuff I've seen before

  66. Re:Linux Defeated in Benchmarks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't want to start a holy war here, but I don't get what's with you 17meg file zealots. I have to use a 17meg computer at work, and I am not impressed with it. I've just spent the last 20 minutes trying to copy a 386 from one folder to another. 20 minutes! Meanwhile, at home my 1.44meg file, which by all rights should be a lot slower, can copy a G5 from one folder to another in ten seconds. Emacs lite is grinding to a halt as I type this!

  67. Re:Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey! Bush can't help it if he's a retard! Leave him alone, he's our President!

  68. Linux aspiring toward OBSD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So does this mean a default Linux install will then be as secure as a default OpenBSD install?

    1. Re:Linux aspiring toward OBSD by chez69 · · Score: 1

      Yup. Except it won't crash when it reads invalid data

      --
      PHP is the solution of choice for relaying mysql errors to web users.
    2. Re:Linux aspiring toward OBSD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, OpenBSD runs most of the same software as Linux. The default OpenBSD install doesn't allow local logins. You can do the same thing on Linux.

      The problem is when you start running some services that are remotely accessible and the hardest to secure are local login accounts.

    3. Re:Linux aspiring toward OBSD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now here's someone that doesn't follow the RedHat errata page, er, pages.

      I guess it's just too overwhelming with new security issues daily.

  69. Maybe by Xenographic · · Score: 1

    This has been done before (many times, many ways...). Some of this has been said already, but basically, it boils down to a few points:

    1) It is not a thorough test of security. People miss things, they take the easiest routes, ignoring more difficult but viable attacks, etc.

    2) This is the part that most security people hate: it is often used as a replacement for a real security audit. The script kiddies don't really hold a candle to some of the folks whose time is too valuable to waste on someone's PR stunt. Such folks should be hired directly.

    Now then, I checked the article, but I didn't see any mention of real audits of the system. I hope they're not just banking on the NSA name in building it. Yes, the NSA puts out good code, but it doesn't take that much to screw things up... sure it allows fine-grained policies, but you also have to configure and customize those policies to something sensible. If you do it wrong, you either end up with vulnerabilities, or things that don't work right. Neither alternative is good.

    So, ummm, wake me up when RedHat talks about who they hired to do a security audits before making their first release version? This is marketing fluff; not something I'd base purchasing decisions on...

    1. Re:Maybe by son_of_asdf · · Score: 1

      I concur that I would NEVER base a purchasing decision solely on a press release/open hack invitation such as this. However, I think that more credit is due to the folks at RH--for the most part, they are probably much finer hackers than the vast majority of thier detractors here on /. (myself included;) any assumption that they are using this as a substitute for a security audit is asinine at best, and to assume that additional steps, such as comprehensive internal security audits, are not being taken in the production of a SE Linux system simply on basis of absence of specific mention in the article is rude and condescending. I say this as a dedicated Debian user that has had little use for RH products over the years. Regardless, I have a great deal of respect for the effort that the people at RH have put into the improvement of Linux and Open Source Software in general.

      An open request for system compromise is, of course, a PR broadside as well as system test. As a businessman as well as nerd, I appreciate this--you can't survive in modern business without this sort of PR stunt. On the other hand, leaving a beta of thier system open and inviting every scriptkiddie/blackhat/cracklibwieldingfuckwit etc. ad nauseum to try and break it CAN'T hurt the system's overall security one bit.

      Although many of you may not approve, this is both good PR and good policy.

      --
      Don't Panic!
  70. SELinux still has holes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    #1 programs like cron, login, sshd are still super-trusted, so if you have an openssh hole, you're still fuxed

    #2 if you have a kernel bug like mmremap again, you're still fuxed (and the kernel just keeps getting bigger, and bigger, and ...)

  71. SE Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is a very basic run-down for all of you not familiar with SE-Linux.

    SELinux was developed orginally by the NSA from code developed at the University of Utah. The idea was to extend the traditional UNIX security model (called DAC, Discretionary Access Controls) in a way to bring Linux up to the level of other Trusted systems and to serve as an example for other systems. They way they did this was to implement hooks into the kernel where modules could directly control the security of kernel. Things like BIBA and other MACs (Mandatory Access Controls) were implemented.

    The catch is, to use this feature you have to write a policy spelling out what exactly is and is not allowed. More than likely, the Red Hat people had an oversite in their policy which negated the traditional DAC and other MAC policies. This is similiar to what happens on FreeBSD using ipfw when you deny a given tcp packet with a number like 1500 and then allow the same type of packet on rule 2700. ipfw takes the last match and lets it through. I can see the same type of thing happening with a kernel security policy.

    And lighten up. That's the reason Red Hat made the machine public -- they want you to break it. You're doing their job for them. It's a lot cheaper to pay for bandwidth than to pay the salaries of 4 or 5 professional UNIX security people.

  72. MOD PARENT UP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is just stupid to think that having to run chmod +x is security. That is just a protection against stupid USERS, which is not really security at all.

  73. SE Linux and root by mattdm · · Score: 1

    Actually, with SE Linux, the root password *can* be root, and it'll still do you no good. That's the "SE" part....

    1. Re:SE Linux and root by LnxAddct · · Score: 1

      Excellent point! I believe on the 45 second crack, the box was passwordless, even root, but privileges were disabled, and the test was to see what kind of security could be imposed on such a system. Personally this would be a great security test! Imagine a box where root had no password and was still secure! Can there be such a thing? In typical /. fashion I didn't read the article, the information here is what I've read from other slashdot posts, however reliable that may be.
      Regards,
      Steve

  74. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type viruses? by skyhawker · · Score: 2, Informative
    But for ease of use, and pressure to have admin privs, you have this insecure situation under Windows. The same will be true of Linux if it were to go mainstream.
    Wrong. The main problem with Windows is that you can't generally log in with two different user ID's at the same time. With Linux or Unix, doing that is trivial. So on my Windows 2000 machine, I normally run with Administrator privileges, while on all my Linux machines, I normally run as a non-prvileged user. If I need to install some software or do some other sysadmin chores, I merely open an xterm and log in as root. No way to do that on Windows 2000 (in general) without logging out of your normal user session. And that's the biggest problem with the Windows design, if you ask me.

    Oh -- I might add that I have never been hit by a virus or a trojan on any of my Windows systems, despite running with Administrator privileges, because I don't do stupid things (like use Outlook or Outlook Express to read email), and I keep all my antivirus software completely up to date.
    --

    The best diplomat I know is a fully activated phaser bank.
    -- Scotty.
  75. NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NSA developed SE Linux ...and they said it's a little better
    http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/

  76. Policy based security sucks. (better alternatives) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Policy based security looks great on paper, but always manages to be difficult to roll-out functionally and securely.

    If Redhat was serious about security, they really should consider looking at the work of the PaX project, as well as grsecurity.

    Propolice is also another excellent choice.

    The mechanisms of protection they offer are a lot easier to deal with on a server, and are quite phenomenal in the amount of otherwise security holes they can plug.

    If you have not yet investigated any or all of the above, please do. You will be presently suprised that you can be far more proactive than the "wait and patch" crowd.

  77. Tienemen misquotes by bigman921 · · Score: 3, Informative

    I was at EclipseCon and saw his speach. He didn't say that the last "version" was hacked in 45 seconds. He said the "average" time it took to hack a computer without a firewall on the internet (including M$ and *nix) was 45 seconds and that a version of SELinux is on the net with no firewall or root password and it has not yet been compromised.

    --
    "So you call this your free contry, tell me why it costs so much to live?" - Three Doors Down
  78. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type viruses? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Check out the runas command.

  79. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type viruses? by Spoing · · Score: 1
    I'd take the advice of the AC; use runas and don't use administrator under Windows.

    That you don't do stupid things is the most important step, though running as administrator is not not clever either!

    --
    A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
  80. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type viruses? by hoeferbe · · Score: 2, Informative

    Although the Windows 2000 runas command is a step in the right direction, it is a far cry from the ease of "su - root" and "sudo ...". Take, for instance, if I want to change the IP address in Windows 2000, but I'm logged on as a non-admin user. To do this, I have to kill my user's explorer.exe process before starting up a new one (by typing it into Task Manager's "Create New Task" dialog box) as the administrator. Only then can I get to the Network Properties in the Control Panel with the privledges necessary to change the IP address.

  81. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type viruses? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or just use the netsh command in conjunction with runas.

  82. Re:Invulnerable to MyDoom type viruses? by pedrop357 · · Score: 1

    XP Pro has a group called "Network Configuration Operators" or something to that effect which allows non-admins to perform certain netconfig tasks.

  83. Is it.... safe? by thirty2bit · · Score: 1

    Maybe they just haven't figured out how the rootkit on the new one is stealthed?

    Seriously, I don't like seeing products PR'd as 'enhanced security' or having the marketing feebs use the 'this version has not been hacked yet!' slogan as some weird mating call for upper management with large budgets ripe for sucking. The more security-minded things get implemented, the harder it is to get real work done.

    New LockD-UP LiNUX. It's so secure, even WE don't know the 10,000 character root password!

  84. Didn't Microsoft try to shut down SE Linux? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can't recall exactly when, but if my memory serves me at all, I remember reading that Microsoft sought an injunction against the NSA to stop their work on SE Linux. Microsoft claimed that since the NSA is federally (?) funded the taxpayers were basically supporting a competitor to their line of business. I beleive that the injunction was upheld, the NSA had to pull down the SE Linux distro off of their website. I would love to see the NSA (some real wizards at that place) go through Linux with a fine tooth comb and close off any vulnerabilities.

    1. Re:Didn't Microsoft try to shut down SE Linux? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't recall if it got as far as filing an injunction, but they did complain that any open source work the government does is effectively the taxpayers funding an MS competitor. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Lots of pieces of BSD were DARPA funded, and MS uses pieces of BSD.

      SELinux is still available at nsa.gov. Always has been.

  85. Your all wrong by Findus+Krispy · · Score: 4, Informative

    I have never even used SELinux, but unlike many here, have at least taken the time to read up on it. Here is the little I have understood:

    SELinux, if set up properly, is secure, and completely bypasses the inferior UNIX security model. You could say:

    * Windows is insecure
    * Linux is less insecure
    * SELinux is almost secure

    IN SELinux there is no root account, or at least it has no privilidges -- user's don't have privilidges in this system. So, you can give root to anyone and they won't be able to do a thing. Gentoo have a machine with public root access for just this purpose.

    The difference is that each program is banned from doing anything by default. Reading a file, using the network, whatever... The packagers must explicitly assign each program access to what it minimally needs to do it's job.

    So Bind (fairly insecure) might be given read access to it's config file, write access to it's cache directory, and port access only for the ports that it needs to listen on. If you then exploit bind it doesn't buy you very much. You can change the cache files, and answer DNS queries, but you can't even change Bind's own configuration, let alone anything else.

    You may have the right as an administrator (nothing to do with root) to run bind, but the programs you run do not inherit your privilidges.

    As a user, the privilidges that you have depend solely on the roles that you belong to. That's why root is useless, it is a user not a role.

    Although there are many security patches for Linux, SELinux seems to me the only truly sound approach to security out there at the moment. If you combined it with hardening solutions designed to minimise the chance of exploits (binary sandboxes) you would end up with a system that is very difficult to exploit in the first place, and once you do manage it it buys you almost nothing anyway.

    Although SELinux is built into Linux 2.6, it must be turned on and manually configured before it is useful. This is currently being done for Fedora, Gentoo, Debian, and other serious Linuxes. I believe this will make Linux the most secure general purpose operating system available. Then we really can lord it over the Windows users.

  86. Re:Big Deal by Findus+Krispy · · Score: 1

    I don't think you have understood what this is about. With SELinux the user's privilidges are not passed to the program, and by default program's have no rights at all. Anyway, if you believe what are you saying, then why don't you go login to Redhat or Gentoo's boxes where they have public root access and see if you can do something bad. It is true that to get the most out of SELinux program's will need to be written specially for it -- simple provable program's with very limited rights, and big buggy programs with no rights at all -- but an SELinux system will already be leauges in front of anything else we have at the moment.

  87. This is security done right by Animats · · Score: 1
    This is security done right, people!

    Exactly. This approach can actually work. It's worked before, in some DoD systems not well known outside the military and intelligence communities. (I worked on one of those.)

    This is now a communications problem. Most of the literature on this kind of security is too theoretical. We need a "NSA Secure Linux For Dummies" book.

  88. runas /user:administrator netsh.exe by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 1

    type ? to learn how to use netsh. It's pretty bitchin.

    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
  89. external vs internal by martin · · Score: 1

    Of course external hacking is relatively easy to stop.

    Root exploits (ala Debian's systems getting hosed), and cross file access are more difficult to protect against. You've also issues with Apache, sshd and whatever other third party apps you include.

    Folk want auditing of everything, admin security roles, and probably B-level security features too. Prob why Trusted Solaris is always shipped on every other major release - it's a sod to do for a relatively limited market.

  90. Possibility has been around a *long* time... by fred87 · · Score: 1

    man chroot

  91. Re:Big Deal by fred87 · · Score: 1

    Thats what a firewall is for. All the unprivilieged ports are blocked to external interfaces on my computer, only accessible via lo.

  92. ! smart policy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, this is not a smart policy, unless you mean for PR. (worked to get a posting on /.)

    Cracking contests have been debunked many times. If no one comes forward and admits to successfully cracking the target, it does not mean that no one cracked it (why blab about it instead of letting the exploitable product go to market with a nice big hole that you already know how to exploit?) If anyone does come forward, that does not mean that all holes were found, only the hole someone was willing to admit to finding.

    Bruce Schneier has written quite a bit about the fallacy of cracking contests in Cryptogram (eg. November 2000 and December 1998, which links back to a /. article with posts about the fallacy of cracking contests) and in Secrets and Lies.

    The value of the cracking contest (or "hacker challenge") is in the publicity - bragging rights to say, "We co-opted the people most capable of exploiting us and they all failed." As another poster said, this adds nothing to the value an audit.

  93. Re:Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One word: setuid. Don't be a moron.

  94. How to secure a Linux box by 0x0d0a · · Score: 4, Informative

    Lsof is useful for analyzing a box, but you can simply add the -p flag to netstat -- netstat -ntap -- and see the controlling process. Run this command as root, or netstat will only be able to identify the processes you own.

    On Red Hat, use chkconfig to set which services start at startup (this is nothing more than a pretty frontend to rename a couple symlinks in /etc/rc.d/rcX.d/).

    The first thing you should do on a new box is run whatever update mechanism your distro provider uses. Apt-get update;apt-get upgrade, yum update, whatever. There have probably been holes discovered. If security is more important than fully tested reliability, I'd automatically run the update sequence through cron nightly.

    If you're extremely paranoid, run syslog to a second machine. If your main machine gets compromised, you have a nice log.

    Major Linux oopses I've seen before:

    * When using X11, never ever use "xhost +". )"xhost +local:" is still asking for trouble.) I don't care how much of a good idea it seems like, *don't fucking use it*. Don't even do it if you aren't on a network and don't think anyone will ever connect to you. This disables all authentication to X11, and at one point a lot of university hackers (old school) used this when they wanted to run a program from another system. Do not do this. If you're running su'ed as root and root can't display a window on the local X11 server due to lack of authorization, use "xauth merge ~[username logged into X]/.Xauthority". That'll just grab the magic authorization cookie for this session from the local user's auth file and hand it to root, so that root can continue to work. Note that recent releases of Red Hat (perhaps due to changes in XFree86, perhaps due to something clever in root's login scripts) seem to authorize root to poke at local displays. Without this, anyone on the Internet with any inclination can sniff your keyboard, dump your screen, send input to your programs, and generally has full privileges of anyone that uses the X server.

    * When using X11 programs from a remote system, use ssh and use X11 tunneling. If you don't do so, your keystrokes will cruise over the network unencrypted.

    * Use ssh protocol 2 in preference to 1 unless you are damn sure that doing so is not a good idea (or you want to use protocol 2 only). This is probably already default for your site.

    The above two points can be implemented by adding the following to your ~/.ssh/config -- this is what I use:

    Host *
    Protocol 2,1
    ForwardX11 yes

    * Don't use FTP. We have scp for a reason. FTP sends passwords in plaintext.

    * Don't use plaintext mail authentication. Too many people send out their mail password in plaintext. Someone with a 802.11b-capable laptop and sniffer on a college campus can grab *masses* of email passwords from someone's copy of Outlook trying to grab new mail every ten minutes. Most places with a competent mail admin support at *least* support MD5-hashed passwords (which still exposes your email to anyone listening on your network segment, but is better than nothing in that they can't also get your password). I use fetchmail with SSL enabled.

    * (not a vulnerability, just a tip) Most Linux distros today are reasonably secure in terms of enabled services out of box. Used to be, in the Red Hat 5.x era, that finger and telnetd enabled out of box was entirely reasonable. Today, however, many folks don't know how to disable services, and so most distributions ship with things off instead of on.

    * Archive your logs (generally, the contents of /var/log). You back up your data, right? (If not, you *will* lose your data one day, and *will* be a sad camper trying to rebuild everything you've ever created that you didn't want to spend thirty cents on a CDR backing up). Include your logs in your backup procedure.

    * This isn't a Linux-specific suggestion, but use gpg. Linux is one of the few platforms with free mail clients

  95. One more (advanced) Linux security nasty by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

    This isn't as common as the ones I've mentioned above, but it's worthwhile in that I suspect fairly security-savvy users might get caught by it (I have, once, in a fortunately benign manner). Windows happens to lock open directories (including those that are current working directories for an application) against movement or deletion. Linux does not do so. 99% of the time, the non-locking this is a really good idea, as the locking has caused all kinds of interesting technical problems. However, access checking takes place at the time one traverses the filesystem into a directory. What this means, among other things, is that if a user has a program with a directory already as its current working directory, and then access control on a parent directory of that directory are changed to prevent a user from entering that directory, the user has already "traversed through" that directory. He will continue to have access, via that program, to the directory in question. So if you decide to remove world access to a directory and then put masses of sensitive files in that directory, and you're a bit paranoid, you might want to run lsof and ensure that nothing already has a subdirectory open.

    This usually isn't too bad, but it has an even nastier side effect. *Moving* a directory has a similar effect. If a program moves a CWD into a directory, and that directory is then moved into a chunk of directory structure that the user should not be able to get into, the user can cruise out of the directory and do what he wants with the files on the system.

    I ran into this as a rude surprise when I was helping a friend use an FTP server on my system. (Yes, I recommend against FTP use, but it was taking place in a limited environment under closely monitored conditions). I had a directory that he had just entered with his FTP client containing a bunch of files that he was downloading. I moved the directory of stuff back into a subdirectory in my home directory without noticing that he was still logged in and was in the directory with his FTP client. He then went into the parent of the directory he was in. Lo and behold, he had just slipped past my home directory (which had no read or list world privileges), and had free access to all my files. Red Hat maintains a default umask granting read and list privileges to world, probably to make copying files around easy, and so once past the home directory, everything was world-readable and all the directories were world-executable (could be listed).

    As I said, this will *probably* not be an issue to most users. However, it is an extremely subtle point that was not immediately apparent to me (and, I suspect, many other people, including security folks with a heavy Windows background). it is very important to any authors of software that might move directories from a world-accessable location to a private location. It is also important to sysadmins that run public UNIX systems.

  96. [LINK] NSA on SE Linux by j.leidner · · Score: 1

    Here's what the National Security Agency says about Security-Enhanced Linux.

  97. Other systems to break into by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

    Warez.phantom.com is one of the largest warez archives around. If you manage to get in, there are some phenomenal goodies waiting for you.

    I'd also suggest taking a look at (try pinging, for instance) the following systems:

    0x7f.1

    There's a pretty good chance that you might even be able to get pings back from the following system:

    0177.031415

    IP is a wild and hairy world, and we barely touched on name resolution. ;-)

  98. Re:Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
    Other technologies that attempt to make buffer overflows (among other things) very difficult/impossible to exploit is not included in SELinux, nor in Redhat.

    But they ARE in the 2.6 kernels

    (the buffer overflow protection that is...)
  99. I've already cracked their new setup in 1h by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    but don't expect me to tell them how I did it.
    My brother didn't feel like participating,
    but i'm sure he could've done it in half the time

  100. It's a pity they called it "multilevel" security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... because it's not. Google on "type enforcement" and get the straight dope.

    Cheers,

    Earl

  101. Good for Redhat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can't wait for the next version of Fedora.

    Nice Job - while they are innovating on the security front Microsoft is busy trying to put metadata on your files so you can search better with them - what a joke.

  102. WOOHOO! by NerveGas · · Score: 2, Informative


    Does this mean they'll actually MD5 the root password?

    (Sarcasm-less explanation: During the RedHat installation procedure, the ability to choose to use MD5-encrpted passwords comes *after* you choose your root password, so your root password is encrypted with much weaker encryption until you change it.)

    steve

    --
    Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
  103. MAC not security by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

    My ideal security is an ETDYN and stack-smash-protected executable base, PaX with SEGMEXEC or PAGEEXEC (whichever has the lesser performance hit; SEGMEXEC is good on x86 based 32 bit processors, with a 1% performance hit in my own tests; while PAGEEXEC uses the hardware NX bit on AMD x86_64 CPUs, and thus has no performance hit on those architectures), and john running in the background forcing users to change their passwords when it can crack 'em.

    Sure a MAC will protect your system, and it's a good step since it can let you keep root from doing things if someone roots your box; but honestly, the FIRST line of defense is to keep crackers OUT of your box.

    Now, if they combine an et_dyn/ssp base with a PaX kernel and seLinux/grsec_acl/rsbac, that I'd consider server-grade security. I've never believed that redhat had any brains, nor any idea what they're doing even if they had brains.