so, perversely and sadly, if we are going to survive to the point where terraforming venus ever becomes possible, to get to that point, we will have had to master the technology to cool down a hot planet already
yet another reason venus is a better candidate: a historically inevitable future technological convergence point. we will come to master the technology to cool down a hot planet no matter what, or we won't be around at all
and this is why: considering terraforming venus, mars, or any planet, you are already in a realm of technological futurism that is impossible. so, when you say it is impossible to keep an oxygen rich atmosphere off of willing chemical kindling, well, who is to say there wouldn't be some sort of technology by then that could dampen that effect
i mean, in a way, you and sagan are describing the earth: lots of oxygen, lots of kindling. as san diego proved a few weeks ago, that's a problem. and yet the earth maintained this seemingly thermodynamically impossible balance long before there were human firemen running around. so we're not considering an impossible situation when we describe lots of oxygen and lots of carbon lying around. there are a myriad ways to poison and dampen a runaway plantary fire. it's not in the realm of impossible to keep the kindling and oxygen away from each other
look, this whole concept is extremely daunting. with terraforming, we are in the realm of fine-tuned and at the same time massive amounts of energy of an order well beyond anything mankind's technology can remotely comprehend. therefore, keeping oxygen and kindling away from flareup will probablt be an afterthought by the time we even considering mastering what is needed to make this work
i would conjecture that terraforming any planet, including mars and venus, will consist of not just molecular and chemical manipulations, but atomic ones as well. because neither mars, nor venus, nor any other planet will have oxygen in water in the right ratios for mankind, or even in the potential ratios, considering just their atomic oxygen and hydrogen stores. so atomic manipulations will probably be necessary to artificially induce the right ratios. yes: massive amounts of intricately controlled energy in consideration here. so perhaps you could "poison" the atmosphere in terms of making sure there is enough of some inert or interfering chemical that would dampen a potential flareup as the terraforming proceeded. nitrogen, or a nobel gas, for instance
and you get wicked weather at the night/ day interface, a blistering midday, and a chilling midnight. but it won't be as wicked a change as on mercury, because the atmosphere will conduct some heat (little, yes, but some is better than none)
and even with day length considered, venus is still ahead of mars, considering all the other variables, mars comes out a worse prospect still
but you are correct to point out that day length is a big impediment, i forgot to address that
but obviously, you are correct to point out this is a major impediment. but beggars can't be choosers. i don't see any other small rocky orbs close by to consider. mercury is way worse, and the gas giants are, well, gas giants, and their moons are too cold
of course it is difficult to terraform planets. any attempt at terraforming any planet will require commanding and intricately directing massive amounts of energy many orders of mangitude well beyond anything mankind has even dreamed of mastering
but at the same time, ask a roman general 2,000 years ago to consider the existence of jet fighters, air craft carriers, and helicopters and you would get the same level of incredulity as you have now about being in a "magical universe"
which means his problem, and your problem, is that you lack imagination. you're a dullard. you think pointing out that terraforming planets is difficult is a useful comment to make
well shit, thanks for enlightening us. we had no idea, we thought it would be easy. where would we be without you?
so with atmospheric density, it is easier to start some sort of process that would precipiate mass out of venus's atmosphere than it would be to bulk up mars somehow (and can mars' gravity hold the density?)
as for oxygen, i forgot about that (duh!;-)
but getting oxygen (and water) in sufficient quantities is equally hard and daunting for mars or venus. venus has hydrogen and oxygen locked up just as much as mars does, and will require some chemical/ atomic manipulation to arrive at the proportional quantity we need just as much as mars does. so for oxygen and water, i think you are talking massive difficulties either way right there, it's a wash in comparing the two planets thatways. both will require heavy manipulation, with a huge energy input, using technology far beyond our current comprehension
and in considering gravity, venus wins without a second thought
and something neither of us considered: magnetic fields. on this measure, both mars and venus stink. so any colony on either orb will be irradiated daily. uggh
venus is a better terraforming candidate than mars. oh sure, if you want to get somewhere as quickly as possible that is vaguely hospitable to settlement, mars beats venus hands down
but if you want to talk about recreating earthlike conditions (water, temperature, gravity, atmospheric density), i think it would easier (easier, not easy) to precipitate out venus' atmosphere than to bulk up mars'. and if you stood on venus right now, you would weigh roughly the same. big bonus right there
where is all the water going to come from? how the heck do you thin out the venusian atmosphere to earth-like densities? i don't know. but however you do it, it's an easier starting scenario than mars
"Giigle: how Pure Envy powers nearly every startup in silicon valley, everyone reading this book, the NYT article, this Slashdot submission and this comment"
we should have nothing but paper ballots. not even mechanical voting machines, and definitely not electronic voting machines
the reason is trust. trust in your voting process is extremely important to the confidence and integriy of society. now of course you can fake paper ballots, lose them, etc. it is just that, for every method you find to "hack" paper ballots, there are 10 more ways to hack mechanical voting, and 100 times more ways to attack electronic voting. increased complexity leads to more attack vectors. simple as that
you can scan the paper ballots with optical machines, certainly, but anything more technophilic than that is not necessary, and perhaps dangerous. voting is not a process that needs to be improved. the poorest country in the world and the richest should all vote the simple way
the situation would have gone like this had everyone just stuck with the script:
dispassionate dry political question
translated into dutch through babelfish->
middle eastern themed solicitation for sex with your mom
response from dutch foreign minister->
apoplectic anger, outrage, and a declaration of war by the netherlands on the journalist's home country featuring tactical nukes, biological/chemical weaponry, and deep undercover black ops sabotage
translated into english through babelfish->
dispassionate dry political answer
there, see? if everyone had just followed through, there would have been no problem
people can't even get the speed of tau muon rays right? they come straight from the golden orifice of ga-ur! who in their right mind would not possess this information? it should be memorized by schoolchildren
egads
WE HAVE BEEN INFILTRATED BY THE PULAXI, SPREADING THEIR USUAL LIES
actually, occam's razor is useful when you talk about relative probabilities that are roughly the same scale... such as 99% versus 1% probability: the 99% probability explanation should be your answer. occam's razor at work
however, in your particular query, i'd say the probabilities approach quadrillions to 1
so perhaps when the probability of a fanciful creative scenario is considered, such as tesla causing tunguska, perhaps we should talk about "occam's sledgehammer"
occam's sledgehammer: when you are certain the scenario can be explained away simply out of how bizarrely exotic it is
occam's sledgehammer: the magnification of force experienced when using occam's razor against the broken thoughts of conspiracy theorists, crackpots, and paranoid schizophrenics
heh
occam's sledgehammer;-)
i like it, i made up a funny yet catchy and useful term
meet will wheaton, who forever more will be thought if as wesley crusher, no matter what he does, even though he left that role behind in the 1980s
meet the spotted owl, who will forever more be thought of as the enemy of logging, but it's just a bird
meet the element lead, which has wonderful uses in nuclear reactors and batteries, but will forever more be thought of as something china likes to put in children's toys
first impressions are unfair, but you will forgive me if i have more sympathy with lead, the spotted owl and will wheaton than i do with a dangerous drug like ghb
the law has always trailed technological progress. this makes sense, as it takes time for the changes technology wreaks upon society to percolate up into society's laws and customs and mores
however, we live in an era where technological change is accelerating
such that, perhaps for the first time ever in human society, the contrast between law and technological change is taking place so fast, the law is getting challenged within a single human generation. the change is bumping up, to the effect that society's laws are actually impeding technological progress
before, it might have taken a few generations of technological change to seriously conflict with the law. so i would assert we are the first human generation to suffer from technological legal whiplash
i hope someone else has coined a better term for this phenomenon than me
if you are, that's a fantastic bait hook right there, congratulations on crafting that lure
if you are not trolling us, and you are actually and earnestly interested in tesla causing tunguska, then congratulations to me
for reeling in with my conspiracy theorist joke a genuine paranoid schizophrenic
But don't worry about my incredulous attitude friend, I'M AN AGENT OF THE ILLUMINATI
i was sent here to distract you with silly jokes, to interfere with your concentration in the important search for the real truth. and now i am casting aspersions on your good name in desperation, so you do not let more of the truth out
we are watching you
below is the secret scrambled communique on subject "catmistake" for other illuminati agents on slashdot. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DECRYPT WITHOUT PROPER AUTHORIZATION OR YOU MAY SUFFER IRREVERSIBLE BRAIN DAMAGE:
dscnd f sxiro 9vnfiol wn ofdsn aj opitrni tgprepe wnf nbwuioqn n
the impact site is 3.26 km wide. this corresponds to a resonance chamber for the tau muon rays we are all familiar with, with a frequency of 23.44 kHz. please adjust your tin foil hats accordingly
"ding dong. turn left in two miles to avoid heavy traffic on the freeway. but avoid the thruway, as there is an rift valley fever outbreak downtown. ding dong"
because a gray area exists, does not mean there is no difference between black and white
it's like this: a guy steals a loaf of bread to feed his family. is he really evil? no. sometime later, after a few more thefts, he kills the occupant of a house he invades. now he is definitely evil. well, when did he go from misunderstood and destitute and requiring of our understand, to a vile evil bastard worthy of our punishment?
nobody knows
but because we cannot pin down the exact moment at which someone went from victimized to victimizer, does not mean he is not a victimizer. because we can't decide exactly when shades of grey fade away to certain black, does not mean we withhold judgment on someone or a situation that is black
see, in all of your comments above, you keep grasping for certainty. there is none, you will never find it
some people like you won't act unless they are 100% certain of things. and what that usually leads to is a failure to act on things most probably requiring intervention. nothing is 100% certain. you are plagued by doubt. which is fine, it means you have a conscience, you don't want to do wrong. but you must understand it is impossible to act and not make mistakes now and then, but it is also much worse to never act. you need to accept that, and understand there is no certainty on questions like this
you keep looking for the uncertainty, you keep saying that something about a situation is in doubt. well yeah, duh, there is uncertainty and doubt in every complicated situation like this
yes, someday, you will make a mistake when you act
but that fact doesn't mean should you should never act. that is, in fact, much worse
you make your best judgment, and you go with it, and sometimes you make the wrong choice, and that's life
but some people are so petrified of making the wrong choice in a gray area, they make no choice at all
which is far worse than acting, and sometimes fucking up
because a gray area exists, does not mean there is no difference between black and white
Slashdot Mirror
you mean terraforming planets is a fantasy?
we did not know that!
where would we be without you?
we ARE turning our planet into venus
so, perversely and sadly, if we are going to survive to the point where terraforming venus ever becomes possible, to get to that point, we will have had to master the technology to cool down a hot planet already
yet another reason venus is a better candidate: a historically inevitable future technological convergence point. we will come to master the technology to cool down a hot planet no matter what, or we won't be around at all
and this is why: considering terraforming venus, mars, or any planet, you are already in a realm of technological futurism that is impossible. so, when you say it is impossible to keep an oxygen rich atmosphere off of willing chemical kindling, well, who is to say there wouldn't be some sort of technology by then that could dampen that effect
i mean, in a way, you and sagan are describing the earth: lots of oxygen, lots of kindling. as san diego proved a few weeks ago, that's a problem. and yet the earth maintained this seemingly thermodynamically impossible balance long before there were human firemen running around. so we're not considering an impossible situation when we describe lots of oxygen and lots of carbon lying around. there are a myriad ways to poison and dampen a runaway plantary fire. it's not in the realm of impossible to keep the kindling and oxygen away from each other
look, this whole concept is extremely daunting. with terraforming, we are in the realm of fine-tuned and at the same time massive amounts of energy of an order well beyond anything mankind's technology can remotely comprehend. therefore, keeping oxygen and kindling away from flareup will probablt be an afterthought by the time we even considering mastering what is needed to make this work
i would conjecture that terraforming any planet, including mars and venus, will consist of not just molecular and chemical manipulations, but atomic ones as well. because neither mars, nor venus, nor any other planet will have oxygen in water in the right ratios for mankind, or even in the potential ratios, considering just their atomic oxygen and hydrogen stores. so atomic manipulations will probably be necessary to artificially induce the right ratios. yes: massive amounts of intricately controlled energy in consideration here. so perhaps you could "poison" the atmosphere in terms of making sure there is enough of some inert or interfering chemical that would dampen a potential flareup as the terraforming proceeded. nitrogen, or a nobel gas, for instance
and you get wicked weather at the night/ day interface, a blistering midday, and a chilling midnight. but it won't be as wicked a change as on mercury, because the atmosphere will conduct some heat (little, yes, but some is better than none)
and even with day length considered, venus is still ahead of mars, considering all the other variables, mars comes out a worse prospect still
but you are correct to point out that day length is a big impediment, i forgot to address that
there are many ways to block radiation
but obviously, you are correct to point out this is a major impediment. but beggars can't be choosers. i don't see any other small rocky orbs close by to consider. mercury is way worse, and the gas giants are, well, gas giants, and their moons are too cold
of course it is difficult to terraform planets. any attempt at terraforming any planet will require commanding and intricately directing massive amounts of energy many orders of mangitude well beyond anything mankind has even dreamed of mastering
but at the same time, ask a roman general 2,000 years ago to consider the existence of jet fighters, air craft carriers, and helicopters and you would get the same level of incredulity as you have now about being in a "magical universe"
which means his problem, and your problem, is that you lack imagination. you're a dullard. you think pointing out that terraforming planets is difficult is a useful comment to make
well shit, thanks for enlightening us. we had no idea, we thought it would be easy. where would we be without you?
it is easier to destroy than it is to create
;-)
so with atmospheric density, it is easier to start some sort of process that would precipiate mass out of venus's atmosphere than it would be to bulk up mars somehow (and can mars' gravity hold the density?)
as for oxygen, i forgot about that (duh!
but getting oxygen (and water) in sufficient quantities is equally hard and daunting for mars or venus. venus has hydrogen and oxygen locked up just as much as mars does, and will require some chemical/ atomic manipulation to arrive at the proportional quantity we need just as much as mars does. so for oxygen and water, i think you are talking massive difficulties either way right there, it's a wash in comparing the two planets thatways. both will require heavy manipulation, with a huge energy input, using technology far beyond our current comprehension
and in considering gravity, venus wins without a second thought
and something neither of us considered: magnetic fields. on this measure, both mars and venus stink. so any colony on either orb will be irradiated daily. uggh
venus is a better terraforming candidate than mars. oh sure, if you want to get somewhere as quickly as possible that is vaguely hospitable to settlement, mars beats venus hands down
but if you want to talk about recreating earthlike conditions (water, temperature, gravity, atmospheric density), i think it would easier (easier, not easy) to precipitate out venus' atmosphere than to bulk up mars'. and if you stood on venus right now, you would weigh roughly the same. big bonus right there
where is all the water going to come from? how the heck do you thin out the venusian atmosphere to earth-like densities? i don't know. but however you do it, it's an easier starting scenario than mars
trolls vote with brainless cynicism
"Giigle: how Pure Envy powers nearly every startup in silicon valley, everyone reading this book, the NYT article, this Slashdot submission and this comment"
we should have nothing but paper ballots. not even mechanical voting machines, and definitely not electronic voting machines
the reason is trust. trust in your voting process is extremely important to the confidence and integriy of society. now of course you can fake paper ballots, lose them, etc. it is just that, for every method you find to "hack" paper ballots, there are 10 more ways to hack mechanical voting, and 100 times more ways to attack electronic voting. increased complexity leads to more attack vectors. simple as that
you can scan the paper ballots with optical machines, certainly, but anything more technophilic than that is not necessary, and perhaps dangerous. voting is not a process that needs to be improved. the poorest country in the world and the richest should all vote the simple way
translated into dutch through babelfish->
response from dutch foreign minister->
translated into english through babelfish->
there, see? if everyone had just followed through, there would have been no problem
i jest
why do i hate america?
i need some free time man
much better title, much more interesting story
where does your propaganda come from?
people can't even get the speed of tau muon rays right? they come straight from the golden orifice of ga-ur! who in their right mind would not possess this information? it should be memorized by schoolchildren
egads
WE HAVE BEEN INFILTRATED BY THE PULAXI, SPREADING THEIR USUAL LIES
trust no one and nothing
occam's razor
;-)
problem solved
actually, occam's razor is useful when you talk about relative probabilities that are roughly the same scale... such as 99% versus 1% probability: the 99% probability explanation should be your answer. occam's razor at work
however, in your particular query, i'd say the probabilities approach quadrillions to 1
so perhaps when the probability of a fanciful creative scenario is considered, such as tesla causing tunguska, perhaps we should talk about "occam's sledgehammer"
occam's sledgehammer: when you are certain the scenario can be explained away simply out of how bizarrely exotic it is
occam's sledgehammer: the magnification of force experienced when using occam's razor against the broken thoughts of conspiracy theorists, crackpots, and paranoid schizophrenics
heh
occam's sledgehammer
i like it, i made up a funny yet catchy and useful term
meet will wheaton, who forever more will be thought if as wesley crusher, no matter what he does, even though he left that role behind in the 1980s
meet the spotted owl, who will forever more be thought of as the enemy of logging, but it's just a bird
meet the element lead, which has wonderful uses in nuclear reactors and batteries, but will forever more be thought of as something china likes to put in children's toys
first impressions are unfair, but you will forgive me if i have more sympathy with lead, the spotted owl and will wheaton than i do with a dangerous drug like ghb
the law has always trailed technological progress. this makes sense, as it takes time for the changes technology wreaks upon society to percolate up into society's laws and customs and mores
however, we live in an era where technological change is accelerating
such that, perhaps for the first time ever in human society, the contrast between law and technological change is taking place so fast, the law is getting challenged within a single human generation. the change is bumping up, to the effect that society's laws are actually impeding technological progress
before, it might have taken a few generations of technological change to seriously conflict with the law. so i would assert we are the first human generation to suffer from technological legal whiplash
i hope someone else has coined a better term for this phenomenon than me
i made a colorful portrait of river phoenix in colored beads"
(thump)
are you trolling us?
if you are, that's a fantastic bait hook right there, congratulations on crafting that lure
if you are not trolling us, and you are actually and earnestly interested in tesla causing tunguska, then congratulations to me
for reeling in with my conspiracy theorist joke a genuine paranoid schizophrenic
But don't worry about my incredulous attitude friend, I'M AN AGENT OF THE ILLUMINATI
i was sent here to distract you with silly jokes, to interfere with your concentration in the important search for the real truth. and now i am casting aspersions on your good name in desperation, so you do not let more of the truth out
we are watching you
below is the secret scrambled communique on subject "catmistake" for other illuminati agents on slashdot. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DECRYPT WITHOUT PROPER AUTHORIZATION OR YOU MAY SUFFER IRREVERSIBLE BRAIN DAMAGE:
dscnd f sxiro 9vnfiol wn ofdsn aj opitrni tgprepe wnf nbwuioqn n
the impact site is 3.26 km wide. this corresponds to a resonance chamber for the tau muon rays we are all familiar with, with a frequency of 23.44 kHz. please adjust your tin foil hats accordingly
"ding dong. turn left in two miles to avoid heavy traffic on the freeway. but avoid the thruway, as there is an rift valley fever outbreak downtown. ding dong"
because a gray area exists, does not mean there is no difference between black and white
it's like this: a guy steals a loaf of bread to feed his family. is he really evil? no. sometime later, after a few more thefts, he kills the occupant of a house he invades. now he is definitely evil. well, when did he go from misunderstood and destitute and requiring of our understand, to a vile evil bastard worthy of our punishment?
nobody knows
but because we cannot pin down the exact moment at which someone went from victimized to victimizer, does not mean he is not a victimizer. because we can't decide exactly when shades of grey fade away to certain black, does not mean we withhold judgment on someone or a situation that is black
see, in all of your comments above, you keep grasping for certainty. there is none, you will never find it
some people like you won't act unless they are 100% certain of things. and what that usually leads to is a failure to act on things most probably requiring intervention. nothing is 100% certain. you are plagued by doubt. which is fine, it means you have a conscience, you don't want to do wrong. but you must understand it is impossible to act and not make mistakes now and then, but it is also much worse to never act. you need to accept that, and understand there is no certainty on questions like this
you keep looking for the uncertainty, you keep saying that something about a situation is in doubt. well yeah, duh, there is uncertainty and doubt in every complicated situation like this
yes, someday, you will make a mistake when you act
but that fact doesn't mean should you should never act. that is, in fact, much worse
you make your best judgment, and you go with it, and sometimes you make the wrong choice, and that's life
but some people are so petrified of making the wrong choice in a gray area, they make no choice at all
which is far worse than acting, and sometimes fucking up
because a gray area exists, does not mean there is no difference between black and white
get what i mean?