The 10% figure was based on a 15" LCD vs. a 17" CRT. I wish I had mentioned that...
A 19" CRT has what... an 17-18" viewable? So if you compare the price/power of an 18" LCD things get more favorable. Perhaps no the 10% I quoted, but definitely under 25%.
Now add the cost of cooling the cubicle farms... since a series of CRTs will heat up a lot more than the LCDs, it costs less to cool a cube farm of LCDs.
Then consider real-estate on the typical desk.
Then consider the ergonomic value -- LCDs are easier to place directly in front of people; most CRTs I run across are cornered on the desk ~45 degrees offset from the keyboard. LCDs are also easier on the eyes.
And one last bonus. For some reasons LCDs have status-value... even still today. People at my work get exciting when they get an LCD, and are happier to boot.
BTW my two Dell monitors have Sony tubes. They're hardly 10 years old -- and they are looking sad.
Something else to consider... cost to own. LCDs cost more up front, but use maybe 10% of the electricity. At a savings of 100W/hr, 8 hours/day, 5 days/week, how long until you have saved the $delta between the CRT and LCD?
Two years? Three? At least in three years the LCD will have the same picture quality; versus the CRT which will look dim.
I have two Dell 19" monitors, identical age -- less than three years old. One is turning pink on me. It's aweful.
Why should I shell out $15,000 for something that's an order of magnitude more expensive than the sytem I've built myself?
I'm going to pick on you here. Not personally, but just because the mood strikes and your post is perfect.
Slashdotters should take the queue from the "pros" and develop an alternative to sell to your boss.
You see, we complain about the big salaries our bosses command, and complain that they don't know the tech they use, and leave it at that.
Instead, perhaps we should be building our bosses (and their rich friends) alternatives to the $15K do-all box for $10K and charge $5K labor to install it in their homes.
$15K either buys them a box they don't know how to use, *or* a box installed with training.
Not to mention, some of these guys (my boss and his friends included) think of things they want in addition to the built-in features. If you ask me, that sounds like an extra-cost feature.
So, Fedora looks interesting. It's the next version of Redhat (v.10) and attempts to continue the "free beer" side of Linux while separating this from the Enterprise offering.
What I want to know is: will security updates be offered in the same timely manner Redhat has offered them before? Their FAQ on the Fedora site is a little ambiguous. Quote their site:
Q: What is the errata policy for The Fedora Project?
A: Security updates, bugfix updates, and new feature updates will all be available, through Red Hat and third parties. Updates may be staged (first made available for public qualification, then later for general consumption) when appropriate. In drastic cases, we may remove a package from The Fedora Project if we judge that a necessary security update is too problematic/disruptive to the larger goals of the project. Availability of updates should not be misconstrued as support for anything other than continued development and innovation of the code base. Updates will be available for two to three months after the release of the subsequent version; that is, updates for Fedora Core 1 will be provided for two to three months after the release of Fedora Core 2, and so forth.
Red Hat will not be providing an SLA (Service Level Agreement) for resolution times for updates for The Fedora Project. Security updates will take priority. For packages maintained by external parties, Red Hat may respond to security holes by deprecating packages if the external maintainers do not provide updates in a reasonable time. Users who want support, or maintenance according to an SLA, may purchase the appropriate Red Hat Enterprise Linux product for their use.
..it sounds like they may not offer timely updates. Or maybe I'm just too sensitive to the [market|lawyer]-speak...? I work in a nonprofit, and am attempting to replace Wintel with Lintel. Redhat has the name, and therefore my boss' attention. If Redhat is no longer available... then he may no longer bite.
but whichever clear winner you come up with it's surely not windows
I agree, Windows is not a clear winner for most situations. It's not perfect. I don't apologize or defend it. But my network doesn't exibit the plethora of problems I read about here on/. or other places.
Did I mention Wintel makes my boss feel warm and fuzzy? It's hard to put a price on that.;-)
I didn't mention that our major application -- the one that the entire organization runs on -- requires SQL Server. There truely are no replacements for this package on other platforms -- not with the level of support or integration they offer.
I suppose I could roll my own package... but developement, support, maintenance, etc would eat up any savings ($7,500 as you noted) by going with Linux. I have even picked out OSS apps that fill many of the needs, but integrating them is no easy task. The question of Build-or-Buy is already answered here.
Even if I did chose Linux, or Mac, or I would still have to find a way to run the software my users rely on at the workstation. One choice here would be Terminal Service. RDP? MS RDC for Mac? A great option. But none of these remove our need for Windows at the server.
Exchange. Haven't seen anything to replace that. And my users are good at Exchange. They use the Journal. They use the Calendars. A few of them (offsite) even have meetings with Netmeeting. It works with Project, another package my users are good at. Granted, I could replace the systems I have with Mac systems... it's a viable option. It's an option I've considered over and over. The problem? It's nice to have a single set of problems... having Macs and Wintel mean two sets of problems to deal with. Replacing all the systems with Mac is not a cost-saving option.
The users -- being the biggest security risk (as you correctly state) are the biggest problem no matter which OS we choose. Since security is a process, not a button, choosing Linux does not make it more secure. Granted, running Linux properly is more secure than running Windows properly -- no question in my mind.
I have Windows and Linux in my server room. I have Windows on my desktops. I do have a couple Macs on the desktops too... these seem to be required tools of the artistic types.:-)
I personally have a couple of test-desktops with Linux only, and as time permits I attempt to to accomplish every daily task on them. I have Codeweavers for Project. I have Ximian's connector for Evolution. I have RDP for the SQL-based application. I have OpenOffice.
After purchasing Codeweavers and Ximian there is little money savings over the Wintel solution. Therefore I have to sell the Linux/Mac variant to my boss based on theory and reports from other organizations. That ain't easy... and I have it better than most because my boss it technically savvy and approves of Linux (he's an ex-programmer).
Filtering mail is great and all, but not needing to filter it is even better.
I wouldn't remove the filter simply because I had Linux. The requirement would disappear, surely, but the need wouldn't.:-)
$100 per machine again over and over and over again.
True. Which means that I will be spending $500 extra during budget year 2004 to keep up with the new staff. In an organization with 70 employees that's not much... and when the boss doesn't consider $500 a barrier then there's little to push us to go all OSS.
Windows requires significantly more work to keep running.
Cold, hard facts, please. I don't visit my workstations unless the user has a question or the hardware fails. Hardware failure is not a Windows thing, it's a computer thing -- therefore I have spare workstations on hand to keep people running in case of problem. My time is best spent with the users, not dealing with computers. That's how it should be; that's how it is at my organization.
And you only have to train an employee once.
I prefer to consider training a process in the same way security is a process. We cross-train, and believe me when someone calls in sick or has to leave due to injury/illness there's nothing like a crew of employees that know their stuff and pick up the slack. The missing employee is missed, for sure, but we don't suffer for it.
It's a security risk. You have to deal with viruses.
Did I mention I used linux in front of the network to filter mail, etc? Besides, it is just as easy to admin a Linux network poorly as it is to admin a Windows network poorly.
I'm no MS zealot. I merely use the tools that make sense for the job.:-)
A another poster mentioned, there is not much need to get the hottest equipment. Nonprofits should do what they can to spend as little as possible. That said...
Many nonprofits (i.e. a 501(c)(3)) get a deal from Microsoft. Office costs ~$75/ea. Windows server is $150. CALs for server is $10. You get the idea.
Some stores such as Tigerdirect have recent-model PCs with XP Pro preinstalled for $600 with a three year warranty. Add an LCD and you have a $1000.00 low-energy computer that's easy on the eyes and includes service for 3 years.
I work in a nonprofit. I use Linux where it makes sense: relay to Exchange, web serving, etc. As a nonprofit the cost-barrier for MS just isn't there. And since the boss doesn't see the $100 savings-per-computer as a reason to leave when most (all?) of the savings will be spent on training.
I'm working on something similar... Exchange/OWA on the net.
There are a couple people who just need to POP their email while away. Perdition POP3-proxy over SSL is a decent solution. Setup POP3 proxy box on a separate network (ie. DMZ) from the Exchange Server and you're set.
There are a few that must have OWA access. For them, set up a reverse proxy with Apache/Squid and get a certificate for this server to communicate with your Exchange/OWA/IIS box.
And forgoodnesssake relay all your email thru something before it hits your virus-protected Exchange box. I suggest a Postfix / Spamassasin / ClamAV setup.
Sadly, you are better off than the majority (?) of people. Ironically, it's possible you're more likely to fall prey to a bad MS Patch than anything else.
If your virus software is kept up to date then your Linksys will serve you well. Keep a good backup of your data for the times that your antivirus update comes after the virus/trojan/worm infection.
I might suggest your worst enemy is a coworker or familymember of said coworker.
I'm a hard worker... and I consider myself a professional and courteous employee. I was once told to arrive 15 minutes before I was to clock in.
When I refused (that is, when I didn't show up 15 minutes early, but rather right on time), I was written up.
I was written up 5 times, the sixth time mean termination. This all went down within one pay period.
I was let go. And I was happy about it.
You see, when I asked the boss for a reference, he gave me a glowing reference simply to keep me from squealing. I kept good notes, a copy of the employee handbook, and each of my writeups. I had his balls in my fist, and I wasn't afraid to squeeze.
He knew I could cause lots of trouble for requiring me to show up early and unpaid.
I now work at a great job where my boss doesn't feel the need to keep tabs on me. We have a good working relationship that has led to my asking "how high" when he says "jump" on the occasions he needs something special done. Otherwise, he leaves me alone.
We finally turned it off. We had gone through 3 sets of ink and only a couple hundred pages. Now, if someone needs a print, we turn it on for them , they can print to it, and we turn it off again. It costs much less that way.
Repeat after me: I will never cycle the power on my solid-ink printer again.
Those things waste lots of ink on power cycles. Leave it on, and you'll be fine. I've printed nearly 110K on mine, and have emptied the waste try exactly twice.
Not today, but Telly's features don't stop. We will always push the envelope, enhancing features and adding new Telly capabiltities... and being able to make personal use copies of DVDs is on the list!
If they push the envelope like they claim they will, this will be one excellent box. At $899.00, it's pricey for all but the serious buyers... however it's tough to come in cheaper for a do-it-yourself solution.
Why would hardware be more secure than software, when (if my facts are straight) some hardware solutions are merely software hard-coded on the chip? By your rationale, an OpenBSD firewall is (by default) less secure than a Linksys firewall.
This is a serious question from someone who wants to learn.:-)
Don't overlook Hash's Animation Master. It's inexpensive at $299.00, works on PC or Mac, has a great modeler, a decent renderer -- network rendering optional, and can export DXF.
By your rationale, shouldn't RBLs and the like quit blacklisting an entire/24 when only a/28 or/29 is offending us with spam?
Yes.
I agree also. One of my clients managed to get a/28 within the same/24 with a 'spammer.' I posted this info and a request for an update to the mail-abuse section of groups.google.com and got an earful of reasons why my client should be penalized for their 'neighbors' actions. And good luck getting removed from the blacklist in any reasonable amount of time.... the offender was kicked from the ISP 4 months ago and my client's IP block is still listed. And my client is bound by a contract to boot -- no way do they have the resources to fight Sprint on this issue.
Not that i approve of the spam, the spammer, their ISP for allowing it, or disapprove of the RBLs for doing something about it -- but crossing a network boundary is extreme and less than truely helpful, if you ask me.
I might not understand your point correctly, but... if I do, then:
By your rationale, shouldn't RBLs and the like quit blacklisting an entire/24 when only a/28 or/29 is offending us with spam? I can think of a few who do.
Slashdot Mirror
The 10% figure was based on a 15" LCD vs. a 17" CRT. I wish I had mentioned that...
A 19" CRT has what... an 17-18" viewable? So if you compare the price/power of an 18" LCD things get more favorable. Perhaps no the 10% I quoted, but definitely under 25%.
Now add the cost of cooling the cubicle farms... since a series of CRTs will heat up a lot more than the LCDs, it costs less to cool a cube farm of LCDs.
Then consider real-estate on the typical desk.
Then consider the ergonomic value -- LCDs are easier to place directly in front of people; most CRTs I run across are cornered on the desk ~45 degrees offset from the keyboard. LCDs are also easier on the eyes.
And one last bonus. For some reasons LCDs have status-value... even still today. People at my work get exciting when they get an LCD, and are happier to boot.
BTW my two Dell monitors have Sony tubes. They're hardly 10 years old -- and they are looking sad.
Cheers,
-sid
Something else to consider... cost to own. LCDs cost more up front, but use maybe 10% of the electricity. At a savings of 100W/hr, 8 hours/day, 5 days/week, how long until you have saved the $delta between the CRT and LCD?
Two years? Three? At least in three years the LCD will have the same picture quality; versus the CRT which will look dim.
I have two Dell 19" monitors, identical age -- less than three years old. One is turning pink on me. It's aweful.
-sid
87 Billion for Iraq?
That assumes the troops and their equipment would have cost *nothing* had they remained quartered.
-sid
I'm going to pick on you here. Not personally, but just because the mood strikes and your post is perfect.
Slashdotters should take the queue from the "pros" and develop an alternative to sell to your boss.
You see, we complain about the big salaries our bosses command, and complain that they don't know the tech they use, and leave it at that.
Instead, perhaps we should be building our bosses (and their rich friends) alternatives to the $15K do-all box for $10K and charge $5K labor to install it in their homes.
$15K either buys them a box they don't know how to use, *or* a box installed with training.
Not to mention, some of these guys (my boss and his friends included) think of things they want in addition to the built-in features. If you ask me, that sounds like an extra-cost feature.
Think about it...
-sid
What I want to know is: will security updates be offered in the same timely manner Redhat has offered them before? Their FAQ on the Fedora site is a little ambiguous. Quote their site:
He doesn't know what "Fedora" is.
-sid
(Emphasis mine) Repeat after me: Redhat is not Linux.
-sid
I agree, Windows is not a clear winner for most situations. It's not perfect. I don't apologize or defend it. But my network doesn't exibit the plethora of problems I read about here on
Did I mention Wintel makes my boss feel warm and fuzzy? It's hard to put a price on that.
I didn't mention that our major application -- the one that the entire organization runs on -- requires SQL Server. There truely are no replacements for this package on other platforms -- not with the level of support or integration they offer.
I suppose I could roll my own package... but developement, support, maintenance, etc would eat up any savings ($7,500 as you noted) by going with Linux. I have even picked out OSS apps that fill many of the needs, but integrating them is no easy task. The question of Build-or-Buy is already answered here.
Even if I did chose Linux, or Mac, or I would still have to find a way to run the software my users rely on at the workstation. One choice here would be Terminal Service. RDP? MS RDC for Mac? A great option. But none of these remove our need for Windows at the server.
Exchange. Haven't seen anything to replace that. And my users are good at Exchange. They use the Journal. They use the Calendars. A few of them (offsite) even have meetings with Netmeeting. It works with Project, another package my users are good at. Granted, I could replace the systems I have with Mac systems... it's a viable option. It's an option I've considered over and over. The problem? It's nice to have a single set of problems... having Macs and Wintel mean two sets of problems to deal with. Replacing all the systems with Mac is not a cost-saving option.
The users -- being the biggest security risk (as you correctly state) are the biggest problem no matter which OS we choose. Since security is a process, not a button, choosing Linux does not make it more secure. Granted, running Linux properly is more secure than running Windows properly -- no question in my mind.
I have Windows and Linux in my server room. I have Windows on my desktops. I do have a couple Macs on the desktops too... these seem to be required tools of the artistic types.
I personally have a couple of test-desktops with Linux only, and as time permits I attempt to to accomplish every daily task on them. I have Codeweavers for Project. I have Ximian's connector for Evolution. I have RDP for the SQL-based application. I have OpenOffice.
After purchasing Codeweavers and Ximian there is little money savings over the Wintel solution. Therefore I have to sell the Linux/Mac variant to my boss based on theory and reports from other organizations. That ain't easy... and I have it better than most because my boss it technically savvy and approves of Linux (he's an ex-programmer).
I wouldn't remove the filter simply because I had Linux. The requirement would disappear, surely, but the need wouldn't.
-sid
True. Which means that I will be spending $500 extra during budget year 2004 to keep up with the new staff. In an organization with 70 employees that's not much... and when the boss doesn't consider $500 a barrier then there's little to push us to go all OSS.
Cold, hard facts, please. I don't visit my workstations unless the user has a question or the hardware fails. Hardware failure is not a Windows thing, it's a computer thing -- therefore I have spare workstations on hand to keep people running in case of problem. My time is best spent with the users, not dealing with computers. That's how it should be; that's how it is at my organization.
I prefer to consider training a process in the same way security is a process. We cross-train, and believe me when someone calls in sick or has to leave due to injury/illness there's nothing like a crew of employees that know their stuff and pick up the slack. The missing employee is missed, for sure, but we don't suffer for it.
Did I mention I used linux in front of the network to filter mail, etc? Besides, it is just as easy to admin a Linux network poorly as it is to admin a Windows network poorly.
I'm no MS zealot. I merely use the tools that make sense for the job.
-sid
A another poster mentioned, there is not much need to get the hottest equipment. Nonprofits should do what they can to spend as little as possible. That said...
Many nonprofits (i.e. a 501(c)(3)) get a deal from Microsoft. Office costs ~$75/ea. Windows server is $150. CALs for server is $10. You get the idea.
Some stores such as Tigerdirect have recent-model PCs with XP Pro preinstalled for $600 with a three year warranty. Add an LCD and you have a $1000.00 low-energy computer that's easy on the eyes and includes service for 3 years.
I work in a nonprofit. I use Linux where it makes sense: relay to Exchange, web serving, etc. As a nonprofit the cost-barrier for MS just isn't there. And since the boss doesn't see the $100 savings-per-computer as a reason to leave when most (all?) of the savings will be spent on training.
-sid
Hrm. I'm not sure about that.
When it came time to get Windows 2000 on the NT4 boxen, I plugged in the restore CDs and I was off and running with Windows 2000.
The Restore CDs ask which OS to install. The nice little sticker on the side of the case has keys for both.
I suppose it's possible I've broken a rule somewhere.
-sid
I have purchased dozens of Compaqs (just before the HP merger was all set) and they came with 2000 and XP installed.
:-)
Before that, I purchased dozens that had NT4 and 2000 as options.
YOu can only choose one (no dual boot), but that seems to answer your question.
-sid
I'm working on something similar... Exchange/OWA on the net.
There are a couple people who just need to POP their email while away. Perdition POP3-proxy over SSL is a decent solution. Setup POP3 proxy box on a separate network (ie. DMZ) from the Exchange Server and you're set.
There are a few that must have OWA access. For them, set up a reverse proxy with Apache/Squid and get a certificate for this server to communicate with your Exchange/OWA/IIS box.
And forgoodnesssake relay all your email thru something before it hits your virus-protected Exchange box. I suggest a Postfix / Spamassasin / ClamAV setup.
-sid
Sadly, you are better off than the majority (?) of people. Ironically, it's possible you're more likely to fall prey to a bad MS Patch than anything else.
If your virus software is kept up to date then your Linksys will serve you well. Keep a good backup of your data for the times that your antivirus update comes after the virus/trojan/worm infection.
I might suggest your worst enemy is a coworker or familymember of said coworker.
-sid
I'm a hard worker... and I consider myself a professional and courteous employee. I was once told to arrive 15 minutes before I was to clock in.
When I refused (that is, when I didn't show up 15 minutes early, but rather right on time), I was written up.
I was written up 5 times, the sixth time mean termination. This all went down within one pay period.
I was let go. And I was happy about it.
You see, when I asked the boss for a reference, he gave me a glowing reference simply to keep me from squealing. I kept good notes, a copy of the employee handbook, and each of my writeups. I had his balls in my fist, and I wasn't afraid to squeeze.
He knew I could cause lots of trouble for requiring me to show up early and unpaid.
I now work at a great job where my boss doesn't feel the need to keep tabs on me. We have a good working relationship that has led to my asking "how high" when he says "jump" on the occasions he needs something special done. Otherwise, he leaves me alone.
-sid
Repeat after me: I will never cycle the power on my solid-ink printer again.
Those things waste lots of ink on power cycles. Leave it on, and you'll be fine. I've printed nearly 110K on mine, and have emptied the waste try exactly twice.
-sid
Repeat after me: Exchange is not a mail server, it's a Groupware package.
:-)
Anyone using it strictly for mail deserves what they get. The rest of us deserve... well... erm. Nevermind.
-sid
If they push the envelope like they claim they will, this will be one excellent box. At $899.00, it's pricey for all but the serious buyers... however it's tough to come in cheaper for a do-it-yourself solution.
-sid
Oh, good... another "RTFM" post.
-sid
Fair enough.
But many people don't know how to setup qmail, or give up trying after grinding their teeth.
Postfix, OTOH, is relatively easy. And RAV comes in easy-to-configure RPM. Set and "forget".
-sid
Could you explain this to us clueless types?...
:-)
Why would hardware be more secure than software, when (if my facts are straight) some hardware solutions are merely software hard-coded on the chip? By your rationale, an OpenBSD firewall is (by default) less secure than a Linksys firewall.
This is a serious question from someone who wants to learn.
-sid
Don't overlook Hash's Animation Master. It's inexpensive at $299.00, works on PC or Mac, has a great modeler, a decent renderer -- network rendering optional, and can export DXF.
-sid
I agree also. One of my clients managed to get a
Not that i approve of the spam, the spammer, their ISP for allowing it, or disapprove of the RBLs for doing something about it -- but crossing a network boundary is extreme and less than truely helpful, if you ask me.
-sid
Any chance you have details on your efforts posted somewhere? I'd appreciate seeing them. Thanks in advance.
-sid
I might not understand your point correctly, but... if I do, then:
/24 when only a /28 or /29 is offending us with spam? I can think of a few who do.
:-)
By your rationale, shouldn't RBLs and the like quit blacklisting an entire
Just curious.
-sid
Or... find black paper and write your message in white ink. :-D
-sid