First of all I feel sorry for the professor, nobody wants that, but really apart from that I balk at the name Society for Open Minded Atheists and Agnostics. Most atheists and agnostics I've talked with are no more open minded than the dogmatic religious ones; not at all. It's very surprising considering what being an agnostic actually means, then again I guess a lot of people just make up their own definition (they kind of have to to want to share a society with atheists, agnostics and atheists are no more correlating than agnostics and those who are religious).
Could you clarify that statement? I'm just curious. I can't speak for agnostics - which does strike me as a sort of intellectual fence-sitting - but I am an atheist myself, so I can speak to that.
Here is what I found curious about your experience with atheists. I find it continually bizarre that I need this word at all, to define myself by something I am not. But people find it handy. I enjoy discussing religion and ever so often I do find theists seem exasperated, like I'm being obtuse - much like your reaction ("no more open minded than the dogmatic religious ones"). Now, I would describe myself as quite convinced of my point of view, given that I've spent a lot of time examining and thinking about the idea of God. I would also describe myself as absolutely open to any kind of sign or evidence presented at all (beyond seeing Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich, etc).
So in other words, I am absolutely dogmatic about it, in the classic dictionary-definition sense, in that I hold it to be axiomatic that no on has ever proven the existence of God. Your convictions should be proportional to your evidence, that's my whole point of view; is that really so closed-minded?
Alyx Vance, for example? She was a brilliant scientist who knew her way with a gun and built huge robots for fun. If she is not a strong female character, I don't know who is.
Good point.
Another game comes to mind - Beyond Good and Evil. Great game. Strong, un-exaggerated female lead character (well she had big eyes, it was the style of the game). Fell on its face in sales numbers though.
We look forward to having you back, by the way! While there are those here on/. who opposed the war, politically, I think we all wished you (and all the other soldiers there) nothing but the best.
Those two things are not mutually exclusive; I oppose the war(s), and I wish all the American troops nothing but the best. Honestly.
Time is indeed valuable, but where in a professional setting would the equilivent of "lol" be acceptable?
Absolutely, positively anywhere. Here's why: IM is not any kind of 'formal' presentation or interaction at all. CEOs do not chat over IM. Prime Ministers and country leaders do not chat on IM. Your project manager sends you a picture of a kitten with a sniper rifle over IM. Ergo: lol. Instant Messaging has no formal application whatsoever. That's what email is for.
Dude you are completely missing my point. Thanks for the physics lesson; now back to what I was actually talking about.
In brief: yes, I know thermal design is difficult. No, I do not think it is insurmountable. No, I do not think Microsoft did a good job here, the power brick is ridiculous and there are a lot of complaints. No, I don't own an X360. Yes, I am aware that the reports are anecdotal. Key thing here: no, I do not believe it is (pay attention now) reasonable to require special circumstances of the user that differ from what users could expect of their consoles in the past.
So to be very clear now, the attitude (and I daresay hubris) involved in writing this statement:
But otherwise, the problem is not with the console, it's with you.
... is the problem. And MS is going to find out the hard way when Nintendo and Sony ship powerful consoles that don't fucking melt.
MS has two choices. Don't make a next-gen machine, or print in the manual the warnings. And they did the latter (at least mostly). So why is it MS' fault again?
Because I think there is a third choice: to meet the design challenge. Yes, it is hard, very difficult, but that is the space for you, it is highly coveted and there is going to be stiff competition. If you have to go with such hardware, and I think its clear that they did, they should have bit the bullet and made it as big as the original Xbox (with better cooling in other words) or otherwise designed that giant power supply to avoid the issue; make it round to avoid excessive contact with a plush surface, or place large clearly marked vents at the ends with labels denoting needed aitflow space, that sort of thing. Encourage the user to place it properly if it really cannot be designed any other way. I'm not an industrial designer. But I still believe creating what is (allegedly) an extra-hot console and then just printing "make sure its ventilated" in the manual is, realistically speaking, not enough.
So, lawsuit aside, when you evaluate your problems with 360, make sure you're not expecting MS to defy the laws of thermodynamics.
You are right of course. But the other, related point is: Microsoft needs to understand the user's expectations and design accordingly.
To all you guys out there saying "they didn't RTFM, you're not supposed to put it on carpet, or in an entertainment center" are completely off the mark (you did not say this, original poster, I'm speaking to the larger Slashdot audience). People have ALWAYS put their console under their TV, or on the floor, right back to the original Atari and Nintendo systems and that is what people reasonably expect to do with the X360.
If it can't sit on carpet, the power supply should have come with a stand, or big feet, or SOMETHING. It is not reasonable to expect anything different from the users. There will forever be users who are clueless and try to put it in their fish tanks, sure. But on the floor on carpet is simply not that crazy. They could do it before. They don't KNOW that there are three PowerPC cores and way more power (wattage). So of course they are perplexed, and it is Microsoft's fault.
Second, do I care if other people's kids watch crazy amounts of TV? Not in the slightest. If parents want to stuff their kids with junk food, sit them in front of the TV for hours, then teach them that evolution is crap and God created all I don't give a goddamn. The great thing about freedom is that it's their choice to make. Their bad decisions shouldn't effect me or my own so long as I'm careful, so what's the big fucking deal.
The big fucking deal is that these people get voted into office and then want to make that way of life the law of the land.
TVs already display live TV. The idea is that this can be a replacement for your DVD player and CD player. It lets you easily play music, movies, and TV shows and other video you buy online. I think they are hoping to basically do an end run around the cable and satellite companies. Instead of subscribing to cable, you just buy the shows you want rather than a subscription to a bunch of shows you don't want and a few you do. The main drawback is the cost per show (which seems high). The main advantage is it lets you have a permanent copy and see it whenever you want, instead of on a fixed schedule.
I think you've hit it on the head. Front Row is going to be a really big deal.
And a big reason I think this is because of Steve Jobs - let's recap what we know about him, aside from his famous temper:
- does NOT agree that television and computers will have 'convergence' in the way it is usually described; he thinks more of a co-habitation if you will, with the computer as the ultimate master to all other media slave devices
- HATES the entrenched media companies (Yes. See: Disney negotiations, major music label negotiations)
- wants control over the entire user experience
- is infamous for finding 'end-run' solutions as you put it to sticky delivery problems (or more recently, bailing/sabotaging if it doesn't work, see: ugly dysfunctional iTunes-capable Motorola phone)
And its been so obvious for old Apple watchers like myself, the pieces have been marshaling for a long time. Right back to the ratification of the QuickTime container for the MPEG-4 spec at NAB, moving through the entire evolution of iTunes and the iTMS. They've got the hardware that everyone thinks is cool; they've got the premiere online model for selling digital content (not even a web page! in their own 'browser', iTunes!); they've got an ancient, highly respected and super-capable media container format; they've got a Disney-level brand. Only thing I think they are missing right now are the video-capable Airport Express and some (admittedly tricky) content deals.
They could totally kick ass with this thing if they execute well, but its a very weird situation, since the main competition for Living Room Celestial Jukebox are game consoles from Microsoft and Sony. Those are game machines, and Front Row is not, but all these projects have the LRCJ as a major design goal.
These are all things I use on a daily basis and I think that they should be included in any media centre, and Apple's offering barely meets any of those.
Well, there is no offering. Its just a rumour.
And if Apple could compete with your custom-built MythTV setup that you personally configured, well, they'd really have something there.:)
I've been proclaiming for weeks that the big announcement the day the iPod with video came out was not the iPod but was that Apple is going to start doing media center stuff. Nobody listened to me.
Ditto. I made a comment here about what (I thought must surely be) raised eyebrows at Microsoft, vis a vis the Front Row as possible competiton for the Xbox360 media center effort... and got modded thru the floor. It's gonna be big though, Apple knows what they are doing in this area.
Based on this: http://www.anandtech.com/systems/showdoc.aspx?i=26 10&p=7/
"Microsoft has their own license to use and manufacture the CPU used in the Xbox 360, and thus we see their logo on the chip itself."
Yes of course, MS has licensed the chip from MS. The original post claimed that MS had designed the chip. The 'manufacture' bit strikes me as a bit funny, as where else is MS going to go for PPC chips? Its either IBM or Moto, and we know about Moto's track record here... Its not like MS has chip fabs or anything.
"Microsoft controls the IP of the GPU; meaning, Microsoft can manufacture and do what it wishes with Xenos (although we're assuming that they can't stick it on graphics cards and start selling it to the public)."
You are correct - I had not addressed the GPU. This is unsurprising considering the craziness that went on with nVidia the last round.
It was sold at a loss when it launched. It wasn't a surprise because every console system back then sold for a loss during its first year. Some information in the Cost and release date section here:
Sorry - you linked the PS3 page. There doesn't seem to be anything about unit cost on the PS2/Wiki page. No one really knows but Sony, although I would maintain most knowledgeable sources I've spoken to anecdotally (game store managers etc) do not believe Sony ever lost money, or if so then it was a tiny amount. It is very possible the cost was basically 'wholesale' when it launched. I dispute your 'every console sold at a lost back then' claim; I don't think that was true of Nintendo at any point.
Hi guys. I am happy that you now have a date for your Revolution. I myself am greatly looking forward to seeing how Nintendo's controller gambit pays off.
I see a lot of animosity towards the PS2 and Xbox360 camps from Nintendo fans (and vice versa). Since your console will be arriving last, there will be rampant speculation about its capabilities and gameplay. The Revolution will be something interesting, no doubts there, but until it arrives we should refrain from direct comparisons.
Yes, we know Nintendo has a track record for innovation. Yes, they have accomplished many controller firsts (although I still maintain that the PS2 controller is the greatest thumbstick controller ever to grace the earth). But there are really serious questions around the gyro controller - arm fatigue, accuracy, etc. We just don't know a damn thing about how it will actually be. Assuming the controller works great, we don't know whether the games will truly take full advantage, enough that people will say "Damn, I MUST own that." It's a big question mark. Porting other popular titles with more typical controller schemes will be a challenge.
And Nintendo is certainly not without its failures as well. Virtual Boy anyone?
My request is this. Don't be dismissive of the other two consoles until we know what the Rev is actually like to play. That's it. Voice your hopes, your dreams, how you think it may be the most brilliant thing to come along in awhile. But don't tell me I'm an idiot for not waiting. Odds are the Rev will be cheap and will be the 'crossover' console - i.e. many will buy a Rev AND an Xbox OR a PS3.
I'm as curious as anyone else about the Rev controller but I also recognize that it is seriously uncharted territory. I thought a lightpen was the most mindblowing thing ever (C64 baby!) until I used one for about 10 seconds and my wrist started to cramp up.
FireWire is already digital. You need an external analog-to-digital device (e.g. digital camcorder, converter box) to convert analog video to FireWire. The iMac just processes it.... And FireWire came with the iMac DV, in October, 1999. iMac rev. A-D do not have FireWire.
I stand corrected. I am not too familiar with the actual FireWire transfer process. I suppose what you are saying, in this case, is that the D-A conversion happens in the camcorder. I had forgotten about the original iMac not having FW.
If Apple wants to be at the center of the A/V world, I suggest they build a machine that can physically sit at the center of a typical A/V ensemble. The mini's size makes sense on a crowded desk. But putting a mini on top of your tower of A/V components looks silly and feels cheap.
Just out of curiosity - do you happen to own an Xbox 360?:)
But the Mac Mini as we know it is not a PVR. The obvious problem (mentioned in the article) is the use of laptop hard drives, a very bad choice for a PVR. Then they need somewhere to put a tuner for analog signals, and hardware video compression circuitry. They need a digital audio out, plus composite, s-video, and hopefully component video outputs. In other words, of all the specialized requirements for a PVR, the Mac Mini hardly meets any of them, and doesn't have any room inside for expansion.
Your point is well-taken, although they are not as far away as you think. The mini has the ability to put out composite/s-video with a $10 dongle available from Apple (as do all the recent models, including the iMacs/PowerMacs). Component output would simply require another dongle with the right jacks. Also, while not standard on the mini yet, the iMacs and G5s have a nifty dual-use audio jack that doubles as analog line-out and optical minijack. Finally as we know any Mac made since the original iMac has no trouble digitizing FireWire video via iMovie in realtime, so perhaps they do not need dedicated circuitry. Really, all they would need the full-sized harddrive for performance/cost issues.
A more interesting point is Hi-Def support, which would definitely need some additional DSP-type hardware, and a better CPU, to pull it off.
You fail to see why? Maybe that's because you didn't read the manual...
Of course, consumers not reading the manual, what else is new? heh.
Aren't you clever. Of course, you were not reading my original message, but what else is new?
I never said I owned an Xbox 360. I said "it ought to be able to live where your stereo does". By which I mean they should have designed it better. I agree with you in that consumers must be expected to pay a modicum of attention to sophisticated electronics and their operational requirements, but this is a little much. People's expectations of consoles are pretty much formed by consoles that came before them.
It looks like the MS power supply could use some cooling fins, because dunking it in mineral oil (while effective) isn't particularly end user friendly.
Oooh!... if they had somehow designed it to float in a tray of dry ice, it possibly would have looked as impressive as people had been hoping for.:)
Now you can tell your girlfriend to keep blowing on your Xbox 360 power supply while playing.
I tried this - but initial tests revealed that I could create a greater vortex of airflow by requesting a 'sucking' of air from said girlfriend. Your results may vary.
It sounds like this one guy (is this the same one we heard about days ago?) just doesn't know how to properly ventilate electronics in the first place. Is he sticking it in some closed-off cabinet sitting between a cable box and a receiver or something?
I fail to see why this would be considered 'misuse' of the Xbox. It really ought to be able to live anywhere your stereo does. Especially with an external power brick that is dealing with much of the heat.
Actually it's not Microsoft users who love getting raped, it's early adopters. And a damn good thing too: without early adopters, we patient and reasonable consumers wouldn't get good products with all the design kinks worked out.
You are probably right... but if everyone was a 'patient, reasonable consumer' then maybe MS would have to fix their shit before they, you know, ship it? Otherwise no one would buy it. Just a thought.
Slashdot Mirror
Could you clarify that statement? I'm just curious. I can't speak for agnostics - which does strike me as a sort of intellectual fence-sitting - but I am an atheist myself, so I can speak to that.
Here is what I found curious about your experience with atheists. I find it continually bizarre that I need this word at all, to define myself by something I am not. But people find it handy. I enjoy discussing religion and ever so often I do find theists seem exasperated, like I'm being obtuse - much like your reaction ("no more open minded than the dogmatic religious ones"). Now, I would describe myself as quite convinced of my point of view, given that I've spent a lot of time examining and thinking about the idea of God. I would also describe myself as absolutely open to any kind of sign or evidence presented at all (beyond seeing Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich, etc).
So in other words, I am absolutely dogmatic about it, in the classic dictionary-definition sense, in that I hold it to be axiomatic that no on has ever proven the existence of God. Your convictions should be proportional to your evidence, that's my whole point of view; is that really so closed-minded?
Good point.
Another game comes to mind - Beyond Good and Evil. Great game. Strong, un-exaggerated female lead character (well she had big eyes, it was the style of the game). Fell on its face in sales numbers though.
Those two things are not mutually exclusive; I oppose the war(s), and I wish all the American troops nothing but the best. Honestly.
I often wonder if this is not what Alan had in mind from the beginning.
Absolutely, positively anywhere. Here's why: IM is not any kind of 'formal' presentation or interaction at all. CEOs do not chat over IM. Prime Ministers and country leaders do not chat on IM. Your project manager sends you a picture of a kitten with a sniper rifle over IM. Ergo: lol. Instant Messaging has no formal application whatsoever. That's what email is for.
Anyone remember "give me a cookie?"
In brief: yes, I know thermal design is difficult. No, I do not think it is insurmountable. No, I do not think Microsoft did a good job here, the power brick is ridiculous and there are a lot of complaints. No, I don't own an X360. Yes, I am aware that the reports are anecdotal. Key thing here: no, I do not believe it is (pay attention now) reasonable to require special circumstances of the user that differ from what users could expect of their consoles in the past.
So to be very clear now, the attitude (and I daresay hubris) involved in writing this statement:
But otherwise, the problem is not with the console, it's with you.
Because I think there is a third choice: to meet the design challenge. Yes, it is hard, very difficult, but that is the space for you, it is highly coveted and there is going to be stiff competition. If you have to go with such hardware, and I think its clear that they did, they should have bit the bullet and made it as big as the original Xbox (with better cooling in other words) or otherwise designed that giant power supply to avoid the issue; make it round to avoid excessive contact with a plush surface, or place large clearly marked vents at the ends with labels denoting needed aitflow space, that sort of thing. Encourage the user to place it properly if it really cannot be designed any other way. I'm not an industrial designer. But I still believe creating what is (allegedly) an extra-hot console and then just printing "make sure its ventilated" in the manual is, realistically speaking, not enough.
You are right of course. But the other, related point is: Microsoft needs to understand the user's expectations and design accordingly.
To all you guys out there saying "they didn't RTFM, you're not supposed to put it on carpet, or in an entertainment center" are completely off the mark (you did not say this, original poster, I'm speaking to the larger Slashdot audience). People have ALWAYS put their console under their TV, or on the floor, right back to the original Atari and Nintendo systems and that is what people reasonably expect to do with the X360.
If it can't sit on carpet, the power supply should have come with a stand, or big feet, or SOMETHING. It is not reasonable to expect anything different from the users. There will forever be users who are clueless and try to put it in their fish tanks, sure. But on the floor on carpet is simply not that crazy. They could do it before. They don't KNOW that there are three PowerPC cores and way more power (wattage). So of course they are perplexed, and it is Microsoft's fault.
The big fucking deal is that these people get voted into office and then want to make that way of life the law of the land.
I think you've hit it on the head. Front Row is going to be a really big deal.
And a big reason I think this is because of Steve Jobs - let's recap what we know about him, aside from his famous temper:
- does NOT agree that television and computers will have 'convergence' in the way it is usually described; he thinks more of a co-habitation if you will, with the computer as the ultimate master to all other media slave devices
- HATES the entrenched media companies (Yes. See: Disney negotiations, major music label negotiations)
- wants control over the entire user experience
- is infamous for finding 'end-run' solutions as you put it to sticky delivery problems (or more recently, bailing/sabotaging if it doesn't work, see: ugly dysfunctional iTunes-capable Motorola phone)
And its been so obvious for old Apple watchers like myself, the pieces have been marshaling for a long time. Right back to the ratification of the QuickTime container for the MPEG-4 spec at NAB, moving through the entire evolution of iTunes and the iTMS. They've got the hardware that everyone thinks is cool; they've got the premiere online model for selling digital content (not even a web page! in their own 'browser', iTunes!); they've got an ancient, highly respected and super-capable media container format; they've got a Disney-level brand. Only thing I think they are missing right now are the video-capable Airport Express and some (admittedly tricky) content deals.
They could totally kick ass with this thing if they execute well, but its a very weird situation, since the main competition for Living Room Celestial Jukebox are game consoles from Microsoft and Sony. Those are game machines, and Front Row is not, but all these projects have the LRCJ as a major design goal.
Well, there is no offering. Its just a rumour.
And if Apple could compete with your custom-built MythTV setup that you personally configured, well, they'd really have something there. :)
Ditto. I made a comment here about what (I thought must surely be) raised eyebrows at Microsoft, vis a vis the Front Row as possible competiton for the Xbox360 media center effort... and got modded thru the floor. It's gonna be big though, Apple knows what they are doing in this area.
Well said; poetic, even. Cheers.
http://www.anandtech.com/systems/showdoc.aspx?i=2
"Microsoft has their own license to use and manufacture the CPU used in the Xbox 360, and thus we see their logo on the chip itself."
Yes of course, MS has licensed the chip from MS. The original post claimed that MS had designed the chip. The 'manufacture' bit strikes me as a bit funny, as where else is MS going to go for PPC chips? Its either IBM or Moto, and we know about Moto's track record here... Its not like MS has chip fabs or anything.
"Microsoft controls the IP of the GPU; meaning, Microsoft can manufacture and do what it wishes with Xenos (although we're assuming that they can't stick it on graphics cards and start selling it to the public)."
You are correct - I had not addressed the GPU. This is unsurprising considering the craziness that went on with nVidia the last round.
It was sold at a loss when it launched. It wasn't a surprise because every console system back then sold for a loss during its first year. Some information in the Cost and release date section here:
Sorry - you linked the PS3 page. There doesn't seem to be anything about unit cost on the PS2/Wiki page. No one really knows but Sony, although I would maintain most knowledgeable sources I've spoken to anecdotally (game store managers etc) do not believe Sony ever lost money, or if so then it was a tiny amount. It is very possible the cost was basically 'wholesale' when it launched. I dispute your 'every console sold at a lost back then' claim; I don't think that was true of Nintendo at any point.
I see a lot of animosity towards the PS2 and Xbox360 camps from Nintendo fans (and vice versa). Since your console will be arriving last, there will be rampant speculation about its capabilities and gameplay. The Revolution will be something interesting, no doubts there, but until it arrives we should refrain from direct comparisons.
Yes, we know Nintendo has a track record for innovation. Yes, they have accomplished many controller firsts (although I still maintain that the PS2 controller is the greatest thumbstick controller ever to grace the earth). But there are really serious questions around the gyro controller - arm fatigue, accuracy, etc. We just don't know a damn thing about how it will actually be. Assuming the controller works great, we don't know whether the games will truly take full advantage, enough that people will say "Damn, I MUST own that." It's a big question mark. Porting other popular titles with more typical controller schemes will be a challenge.
And Nintendo is certainly not without its failures as well. Virtual Boy anyone?
My request is this. Don't be dismissive of the other two consoles until we know what the Rev is actually like to play. That's it. Voice your hopes, your dreams, how you think it may be the most brilliant thing to come along in awhile. But don't tell me I'm an idiot for not waiting. Odds are the Rev will be cheap and will be the 'crossover' console - i.e. many will buy a Rev AND an Xbox OR a PS3.
I'm as curious as anyone else about the Rev controller but I also recognize that it is seriously uncharted territory. I thought a lightpen was the most mindblowing thing ever (C64 baby!) until I used one for about 10 seconds and my wrist started to cramp up.
I stand corrected. I am not too familiar with the actual FireWire transfer process. I suppose what you are saying, in this case, is that the D-A conversion happens in the camcorder. I had forgotten about the original iMac not having FW.
Just out of curiosity - do you happen to own an Xbox 360? :)
Oh. Well, that settles it, then.
(In the fine Slashdot tradition.)
Your point is well-taken, although they are not as far away as you think. The mini has the ability to put out composite/s-video with a $10 dongle available from Apple (as do all the recent models, including the iMacs/PowerMacs). Component output would simply require another dongle with the right jacks. Also, while not standard on the mini yet, the iMacs and G5s have a nifty dual-use audio jack that doubles as analog line-out and optical minijack. Finally as we know any Mac made since the original iMac has no trouble digitizing FireWire video via iMovie in realtime, so perhaps they do not need dedicated circuitry. Really, all they would need the full-sized harddrive for performance/cost issues.
A more interesting point is Hi-Def support, which would definitely need some additional DSP-type hardware, and a better CPU, to pull it off.
Of course, consumers not reading the manual, what else is new? heh.
Aren't you clever. Of course, you were not reading my original message, but what else is new?
I never said I owned an Xbox 360. I said "it ought to be able to live where your stereo does". By which I mean they should have designed it better. I agree with you in that consumers must be expected to pay a modicum of attention to sophisticated electronics and their operational requirements, but this is a little much. People's expectations of consoles are pretty much formed by consoles that came before them.
Oooh!... if they had somehow designed it to float in a tray of dry ice, it possibly would have looked as impressive as people had been hoping for. :)
I tried this - but initial tests revealed that I could create a greater vortex of airflow by requesting a 'sucking' of air from said girlfriend. Your results may vary.
I fail to see why this would be considered 'misuse' of the Xbox. It really ought to be able to live anywhere your stereo does. Especially with an external power brick that is dealing with much of the heat.
You are probably right... but if everyone was a 'patient, reasonable consumer' then maybe MS would have to fix their shit before they, you know, ship it? Otherwise no one would buy it. Just a thought.