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Microsoft Sued Over Alleged Xbox 360 Defects
richdun writes "Reuters is reporting that a Chicago man who was lucky enough to purchase an Xbox 360 has filed suit against Microsoft over the overheating and crashing some users have experienced. The man is seeking unspecified damages, litigation expenses, and replacement or recall of all Xbox 360s. While more suits or a class-action is probably on the way, others have sought less litigious solutions."
Xbox Burn your house down edition.
Jeez, you would think that you could just unload the piece of junk on ebay.
Curb CO2 emissions: Kill yourself today!
But it's going to set a dangerous precedent if this clown wins. He wants damages? With a defective product, the company isn't liable for anything beyond replacing it, unless there's some signed contract prior to purchase in which the manufacturer guarantees certain things.
Problems included screens going black and the appearance of a variety of error messages.
Black Screen Of Death?
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
I love that the submitter's comments seems to imply that it is somehow more noble for consumers to take the responsibility for defective products on themselves, as opposed to holding the manufacturer accountable.
Anyone can sue anyone else no matter how stupid it is, and there won't be any repurcussions except more money for the lawyers. What we really need is some system in place where the loser pays to further discourage stupid lawsuits.
I think there's some sci-fi book where the loser and his lawyer dies. That might work too, but I don't think most people would go for that.
360 must mean 360 degrees....right?
If you aren't happy with the 360 why not just take it back? Why does everything have to resort to a law suit?
Conserve Oil, Recycle, Boycott Walmart
The X-Box is working perfectly fine ... in fact I'm posting this from my X-Box's web br*%$#)$%&({@{($*#){[NO CARRIER]
"...others have sought less litigious solutions."
Oh they have
didn't see this one coming...
come on people! you know that by suing microsoft for admitting mistakes, you are only going to encourage them to cover up future problems instead of addressing them!
Bill, is that you?
Consciousness is a myth. Trust me.
I think it is about time someone took a stand against companies pumping shit out to the customer before it is ready. Especially since it is obvious this was done to beat the Xmas season...
In addition, I don't like the way it was posted... "a Chicago man who was lucky enough to purchase an Xbox 360"... OH PLEASE!!!! "lucky enough" You make out to be some amazing thing... It's JUST a GAME BOX!!! Hello!!!
WoW!! When playing games is THAT important life must be truly sad.
Actually, I'm glad I didn't rush out and invest that kind of cash on the 360. I can't remember, but I don't seem to recall any horrible defects reported when the N64, PS2 or Dreamcast came out. Could this be because of the haste for hype and market penetration?
"You smell that? Do you smell that?... litigation, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that. I love the smell of litigation in the morning."
No matter where you go... there you are.
Many articles claim that M$ was rushing out the Xbox 360 to beat rivals Sony and Nintendo. I found that slightly odd since neither of them ever planned to release until next year. M$ was really trying to get that overpriced box out by Christmas and ca$h in. I bet some hackers will find the problems and have a patch out before M$ even admits a problem.
gasmonso http://religiousfreaks.com/Then again, maybe they'll just tell you too keep it in the mini-fridge, with your beer.
This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
Behold the power of bottomless pockets!!! Waste time with R&D or even a beta test? Hell know why? because when the issues come up you can just throw money at the problem! First to market is truly the only thing that matters.
First iPod Nano then Xbox 360.
Am I seeing a commercial trend where hardware companies are increasing confident to roll out their products even if they are not thoroughly tested, simply because these companies know they have enough fanboys to buy anything they sell?
It's also interesting to see that these hardware companies are also software companies, who are regularly rolling out "beta" software to the public.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
Would anybody be suing Microsoft for a overheating console if they weren't sitting on a mountain of cash and losing money on every XBox 360 console sold? Sheesh...
Just buy a cheap fan to cool down the console. Did that for the Dreamcast and Playstation when I was working at Accolade/Infogrames/Atari. Of course, those consoles weren't design to be running 12 hours a days.
Unfortunately it is a class action lawsuit. The individual(s) will recieve a $1.25 check 10 years from now while the lawyers rack up $400/hr fees. Microsoft will issue a non-mea-culpa and continue life as usual, short $100 million, a drop in the bucket.
One ring to bind them - should probably have more fiber and less rings in their diet.
I agree. This loser should just return the unit then, but I bet he bought it on ebay for $2500, which makes him an even bigger loser.
Is it a design defect if you're specifically told what the 'problem' is and how to avoid it?
FYI I'm not talking about chainsaws that can accidentally cut your face off, more like a car owners manual that says "keep your radiator topped off or else your engine will overheat." Or in this case, don't put your Xbox in certain places, or it will overheat.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Oh the PS2 had plenty optical drive issues. The PS2 still has issues. The slimline ones don't work with some older games.
Conor "You're not married,you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart
If Microsoft just recalls all of the power adapters (which seem to be most of the issue), and replaces them with a different design that allows airflow underneath, they can basically stop this lawsuit and any others that are bound to come up. The other option would be to provide a free plastic base to all XBox360 owners that would snap on the bottom of the system and raise it up an inch from the surface.
People who sue over this stuff are worse than companies that unknowingly release a faulty product. There are better resolutions than calling a lawyer, like returning the system, waiting on a recall, or hacking it up with a string.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. --Winston Churchill
So in exchange for an overheating and crashing Xbox 360, he will be facing the wrath of an overheating Balmer (sweaty armpits, soaked forehead) and his crashing chairs in the courtroom? :)
For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother.
It would be very popular if it was just the lawyer who died. Yay, a reason to litigate at last.
Have things really gotten to the point when everytime we don't like a product we sue the manufacturer? What happened to the days when if a product wasn't what we expected it to be we simply told our friends not to buy one and didn't buy from that manufacturer again? Are companies required to produce products that every single person in the world likes otherwise be victims of a lawsuit? Are standard defects valid causes for suits? We (well Slashdot population) all know that no process is 100% defect free, even a 6 sigma process still has 3.4 defects per million opportunities. Are we that litigious? How long before someone sues a restaurant because their steak was medium instead of medium rare?
This is absolutely insane.
The SNES that melted down when someone plugged in their new copy of Super Metroid and tried to play it. On the other hand, I think it was BBSpot.com that best said it when "Microsoft (was) bridging the gap between Consoles and PC's" when they released the 360 Crash edition.
I wonder if the person is really thinking they'll win this or if they are just trying to smear micro$oft's name. Anyone have any more info?
Really, generally I am anti-lawyer and against frivolous lawsuits, but thi sis not one of them. This is a legitimate complaint and I believe that when the final numbers are known, that the number of defects will be much larger than MS is claiming. Also, MS support has been absolutely terrible when it comes to dissatisfied 360 owners, simply telling them to unplug and replug the system and call back.
To build such hype and such "demand" and then release a rushed faulty product should be punished. People need to stop this before everything is "beta" quality and we are all testers. What will become even worse is this Dec. 25th and the following days, I believe there will be many more unhappy folks once little Suzy and Tommy unwrap their shiny new Xbox 360 and it fails to operate or crashes continually or destroys their games... which is another thing: If you have a Xbox 360 and it destroy's your game by leaving the "360" degree circle of death scratch, MS's great response is that they will send you a free copy of PDZ. Umm, my copy of PGR3 is scratched... have a free PDZ! Not quite stellar customer support.
The 360 and PS3 amount to basically a giant pissing match between Sony and MS... the problem is that they forgot what the real aim of a console is: Easy, Fun, Enjoyment. Not Ghz, RAM, Polygons FTW.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
And I am waiting for someone to claim that a neighbor used more than his share of air.
On another note, if a car company would sell efective products, you bet that someone will seek damages. Why not in IT? Because MS owns most of the industry and has deep pockets.
Umm... you really didn't pay attention to the PS2 launch did you?
I don't see how there could be any grounds for a case. There certainly is no way that this guy can demonstrate that Microsoft hasn't been acting in good faith with customers or that there's been any sort of cover up. The Xbox360 has been out barely a week.
Not to mention that the first generation of anything often has problems. This certainly isn't unique to Microsoft. This is what happens when consumers crap themselves over something new and have to be the first ones to get it. They get screwed waiting in long lines, paying more than they should and having a potentially defective unit on top of all that.
Anyone with a little sense would wait a few months until those initial problems were addressed and then waltz into any store and choose from one of the dozens of unclaimed units sitting there on the shelves.
Not that I'd ever waste money on an Xbox360, or a PS3 or a Revolution for that matter. They should all stop screwing around and just start developing for the PC directly, because thats what those consoles are turning into anyway.
I suppose someone always has to be an early adopter, and they're the ones who are going to encounter the problems first, and it's because of them that these problems are discovered. However, if you can't get rid of the ants in your pants then you'd better learn to deal with the consequences. Too bad you cant sue someone for stupidity.
The man is seeking unspecified damages, litigation expenses, and replacement or recall of all Xbox 360s.
Why is that 'The Man' always has to ruin it for us?
While suing M$ is probably a very extreme thing to do, he does raise a very valid point on defective merchandise. If you take a look at the polls released on most XBox sites they all seem to be asking the same question: "Is your 360 FUBAR?". The numbers that come back are showing 1 in 5 360s have a problem. I'm not sure what numbers M$ has over there at the QA Help Desk, but if they are regarding 20% as a "very, very small fraction" then such a matter should be taken to the public. They are playing down what is apparently a huge problem, but then this is in line with most M$ product releases. Just look at Windows ME, maybe in comparison 20% IS a "very, very small fraction". Meanwhile we can rest assure that both Sony and the Big-N are kicking back laughing at the XBox 360's release problems and polishing their systems properly.
If all we had left were Vulcan Jedis... would they say: "Live long, prosper, and may the force be with you?
In addition, I don't like the way it was posted... "a Chicago man who was lucky enough to purchase an Xbox 360"... OH PLEASE!!!! "lucky enough" You make out to be some amazing thing... It's JUST a GAME BOX!!! Hello!!!
Tell that to the Apple fanatics. Those people see nothing wrong with spending half their lives wiating in line for each new plastic gadget that Apple makes every few months. "Sure I waited in line for 2 hours! It was OS X version 1.2.5.5! It's MUCH better than 1.2.5.4, and it ONLY cost me $200!"
You get bad units, it happens with any products. Microsoft are replacing all units which exhibit any fault, for example overheating. They overnight you an empty box, you put the defective unit in and overnight it back, then they overnight you a new unit. Total time elapsed: less than a week, total cost to you: zero dollars. That's better than most return policies in my experience. So far MS have been saying that the return rate is around 3%, which is below industry average. So again - what's the problem here? A company produced a product which has lower than average failure rates and is happily and rapidly replacing any defective units for free.
This guy doesn't wany justice, he wants free money. He's a greedy ass and should be brought to book for encouraging this insane litagation culture to feed his own pocket.
And the last thing I want is a recall - mine is working perfectly.
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
then try this on for size.
The RIAA takes you to court, pays outrageous legal fees (which they can afford), files for extensions, appeals and whatever until you run out of money and can no longer defend yourself.
Then you lose.
Now you have your legal fees, plus theirs!
Do you still think making the loser pay all legal fees is a good idea?
We have always been at war with Eurasia!
C'mon, people. Will you never learn? What happened was a lawyer needed a new 12 person hot tub in his winter palace^H^H^H^H^H^H home, so he found a mark ("a man" in this story). If the case is won, the lawyer gets his hot tub and the man gets a $5 off coupon for an MSCE manual or something.
Or could it be because of an increasingly complex device (with vastly more complex chips)? The PS2 had plenty of issues (disc drive problems anyone?) at launch.
I would draw a spectrum like this:
NES/SNES/Genesis/N64/Dreamcast | PS2/Xbox/PS3/Xbox360
For the Xbox, PS3, and Xbox360, you have the addition of very powerful GPUs. That chip alone is a vast increase in complexity and HEAT. The PS2 kind of rides the fence because--on one hand--you have a complex system... On the other hand, the clock speeds and heat generated was very low and that helped reduce some of the issues we're now seeing with the next-gen systems.
XBOX sues you!
Why would you buy a machine with a $99 return policy?
From what I've heard on other sites discussing the power pack problem, the warranty requires you to submit a $99 payment with the system when attempting to receive repair or replacement.
WHY would someone buy a product with such lousy coverage??
-Patrick
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
The way to hold a manufacturer accountable for a new product taht doesn't work as advertised is to take it back. If you buy something that is supposed to work one way, and it doesn't, take it back and get something else (or do without).
Lawsuits should only be for cases where a failure developes out of warantee that is systemic, and the manufacturer refuses to fix the problem. For example a bunch of Canon cameras receantly had failures due to bad CCDs. They were out of warantee, but it was a defect in all of them, thus they were fixing them for free. Had they not, that would have been an appropriate situation for a lawsuit.
This is just a money grab, nothing more. A videogame console is not a necessity of any kind, and even if you bought it opening day you are still well within the return period. Just take it back, and tell them why.
If you can get the single lawsuit to go forward, they may be able to legally compell Microsoft to say how many reports of malfunctions they have had. Then, they figure out the size of the class action lawsuit and really go for the throat. That basic strategy is used more than you might think.
Unlikely, since (a) it is a hardware defect, and (b) MS has already admitted that some manufacturing defects occurred, and are replacing the faulty components.
If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
But what if he can't take it back? That's the thing that really pisses me off about electronics, software, and music: once you open the fucker, you can't return it in many cases. It really pisses me off regarding the EULAs for software, either accept it or don't use it, either way you bought it and therefore the publisher and retailer gets their money! I'm sure for that reason, EULAs can't be enforced in court - at least with store bought software.
I don't know what my point is. I've stopped buying electronics and music. I only buy software when I really have to. Otherwise, I live without it.
Are you implying you play PC games on a mac?
lol.
The next version will go from XBox 360 to XBox 411 - the temperature at which games will burn.
Odd, they seem to do massive recalls or advisories all the time and don't get sued. What happy fun world are you living in?
I'll buy it off of you for retail price and pay for shipping. I'm sick and tired of calling bestboy,and target everyday to get my hands on one.
Have you ever been to a turkish prison?
That's for a non-critical item. That's better service than we get on some computers here at work, and those are at least somewhat important. A console is entertainment only. If this was a life support device, yes lawsuit. If this was a critical server, maybe. A game console? Hell no. If the company is offering less than a week turn around on reparis, I'd say you have nothing to whine about. You can either accept that, or simply take the unit back (all units are less than 30 days old).
Talk about a lot of fuss over an entertainment device.
I guess I'm referring to the original ps2....I do recall the problems with the slimline version.
So... because you don't have your priorities straight and you raised lousy kids you have a right to sue? Idiot.
-everphilski-
When will the avg American figure out that class-action lawsuits only benefit big-time litigation attorneys?
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
Oho! He doesn't read slashdot.
I think there are too many lawyers in the world.
Sure, you should try "fixing" your new $400 device (plus the cost of feeding it) with string. Of course, this will likely void your warranty, and when the damn thing kills someone or burns your house or entire appartment complex down Microsoft can point to what you did as the cause. Or maybe you could just ask Microsoft nicely and share the pure joy in the laughter of their response.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Anyone remember when MGS 2: Solid Snake came out?
In it, the "X" button meant "cancel" and the "O" button meant "select", in a reverse of the normal, expected way.
At my local Gamestop, hundreds of copies of the game were sent back as "Defective" because "I can't go forward in the menu, it just goes back," even though it said, right there on the screen, "X: cancel, O: select".
Now somebody's suing microsoft for the "Defect" in the XBox 360 which he wouldn't be experiencing if he'd read the freakin manual.
Retards.
I wonder if this guy is on Sony's payroll
There is a Roman Law principle which says that 'the law does not concern itself with trivialities'. So in most other countries, crap lawsuits are simply thrown out by the judges and the lawyers are admonished for filing them.
Oh well, what the hell...
What a f#$##ing loser. If this case hurts microsoft I'm getting the hell out of this country so it can burn in its own socialist hell.
Aaah, but here is the golden ticket:
If I bought a new car and then later found out that I have to put 50/50 in the radiator all the time, I'd be pissed too.
Repeat after me: Being pissed does not give you the inherant right to sue. Thanks.
-everphilski-
I don't like this law suite.
Me either. My old frivolous law suite had a great view, a nice leather couch, an oriental rug, and several nice pop art pieces on the wall. The new suite my firm moved me into is in a dank corner of the building and contains nothing but a desk and some file cabinets.
* spills coffee in lap *
God Bless America!
Dark Reflection
The fact is, if you post something on /., you are now ineligible for protection from ridicule on your improper use of homophones. Instead of "lack their of" the parent comment should say "lack thereof." Take some time to check out the definitions of thereof, their, and of.
I'll be your candy shop of infinite deliciousity if you'll be my discotheque of endless rump-shaking.
Please read http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=170258&c id=14188093 and shut up. Thanks.
-everphilski-
The solution which works much better is to have the litigant pay standard rate legal fees of both sides if they lose. Then if someone big sues you, a lawyer can take your case and defend you, offering only to charge you if he succeeds in your defense (and then he gets paid by the litigator, eg RIAA rather than you).
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
Now, I know some are just plain defective. That'll happen when you ship hundreds of thousands. There might even be more defective units than would normally be expected. That could happen to, due to manufacturing difficulties.
1 24290
But a design defect? I just don't know if we're there.
I know it gets hot http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=169465&cid=14
But it gets hot because it does so much. Its regular level of consumption is 160W. That's a lot, and it all turns into heat. Despite this, the Xbox 360 has a great cooling system. It really keeps itself cool.
But, like all devices, a cooling system just moves the heat somewhere else, in this case ouside the case. So if you put it in a confied area or block the vents, it will be unable to cool itself. There is NOTHING MS can do about this.
Perhaps you'd like Xbox to take less power (PS2 uses 50W). I can understand that. But it's not going to happen. PS3 will be the same. These super-capable game machines are pushing the limits of technology and so they use a lot of power and generate a lot of heat.
So, lawsuit aside, when you evaluate your problems with 360, make sure you're not expecting MS to defy the laws of thermodynamics.
BTW, I got together an EXECELLENT cooling system for my 360 in my stereo/video game cabinet now. I'm considering writing it up. Costs a fair bit, but instead of 116F inside there with the front panel cracked an inch, now it gets to 78F (67F ambient in the room) in there with the front panel completely closed. It's so much quieter now.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Alternatively, people could try to get a clue and be smart consumers and not be early adopters who are going to suffer from all the crap. If manufacturers' early sales start to hurt from crappy first releases, their quality will go up.
I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
Apple had bad PR about its Li-Ion batteries dying right after the 90 day warranty expired. Apple fixed the battery problem and to improve the customer's confidence increased the warranty to 1 year.
Actually as far as I understand you can be liable for a product you manifacture & sell if either 1) it has knowingly a default 2) it does not respect the local norm/standard 3) it does not work as described in the manual/package (please notice that I do not say it does not work as adverstised!). Liability can involve depending on the country from replacement of the unit, partial or complete refund and in the most extreme case, recall or even severe fine and damage (mostly in case of default endangering a life).
Now this US situation is this : you can sue ANYBODY. Naturally a judge might throw your claim out, or even kick you out of the court for contempt, your claim might not even go beyond a first hearing or whatnot. Suing does not guarantee you have a claim, it only means you THINK you have a claim. See for example each year the tax protester suing the federal governement (NONE get beyond the judge throwing the claim out or even laughing and in one documented case calling the claimant a fool). So in that case, since a solution already exists (replacement of the unit) then the lawsuit won't probably go very far. That is, unless he can prove 1) that he can't get a replacement or a refund from MS/reseller or/and 2) the overheating unit involve a life risk and/or already damaged a person and/or possessions(items).
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
I don't understand how you sue M$. You didn't even buy it from them. I would think the chain of lawsuits should go as follows: Consumer->Retailer->M$->PowerSupply OEM. Also Shouldn't the link be "less litigious solutions" and not just "litigious solutions" Yes I know the less is right there but it still seems like the link will take you to "litigious solutions". Also how many Watts does the XBox 360 use? I think the original bigger PS2 uses around 75. Whats this monster eating?
M$ was really trying to get that overpriced box out by Christmas and ca$h in.
Yeah, since they're making $ -126 on every console, if they sell enough they could cash in to the tune of almost negative a hundred million by christmas! Those bastards!
The problem with loser pays is that a little guy with a genuine beef against a big guy will be utterly unable to get legal remedy. Lets say that I buy a new car and the transmission fails in 6 months. My reaction would be to get them to fix it, and sue if they don't. If loser pays I can't do that- their legal bill would easily be 5+ figures. Even if I have a 75% chance of winning, that remaining 25% chance makes it too risky to try, especially as I now need another new car. With big megacorps able to hire as many attorneys as they want, they can easily make legal fees sky high to eliminate suers too.
A better idea is SLAAP laws. At the judge's discretion, he can fine a person/company bringing suit for abusing the court system. The problem here is that you have to trust the judge, and hope he isn't corrupt. But its still a better idea than pure loser pays.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
My brother had no intentions of buying the 360 on first release, for this very reason(I am a PS2 person, he has xbox.) We simply assumed there would be issues with it and would just wait until they were taken care of. PS2 had optical drive issues, but if I recall most of those where in the Japanese release, I could be wrong however. I got mine fairly early in the release and it still works perfectly, and I have not treated it nicely at all. As someone mentioned before, this is definitely giving Sony and Nintendo plenty of laughs, but I hope it is getting them to make sure their products are tip top.
What you mean like an iPod? Yeah those aren't successful AT ALL...
So the guy is wrong in suing MS, maybe. But somewhere I hope this will make the major manufacturers avoid selling crap they haven't properly tested first. [The following sentence is not flamebait so please] If they can actually sell a console that overheats in less than 20 minutes without knowing of the problem, it's scary to think how they handled their OS design, where flaws are less visible but can be just as bad.
OH PLEASE!!!! "lucky enough" You make out to be some amazing thing... It's JUST a GAME BOX!!! Hello!!!
Correction: It's a game box that sells for a few hundred bucks over retail price on eBay. It's an investment.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
If someone brings suit, and loses, and is deemed, in the eyes of the judge (or some group of judges, or some other body) to have filed a stupid lawsuit, then I think yes, they should have to pay.
/. style summary it'll sound stupid. So it very well may be that it would cost more in time and effort to determine what is in fact stupid and what is just being made to seem stupid. (And the reverse is also true - many things that are absurd can be made to sound quite reasonable if you choose your terms carefully.)
In the case above, the RIAA could bring suit, but the person *being sued* would not be liable for any legal expenses but their own (unless they agree otherwise in the settlement) - RIAA would be on the hook for it.
If I take an action and that action is injurious to others AND "stupid" (whatever that means) then I should be responsible. But if I take no action - if someone else sues me over something "stupid" - then I shouldn't be responsible as I didn't initiate anything.
Granted, all of this hinges on what's "stupid" - on the surface, many lawsuits sound phenomenally stupid - hell, you can spin anything to make it sound stupid - Roe v. Wade, Miranda, whatever, pick any piece of landmark adjudication and if you give it a
Anyway - my thought is that this particular lawsuit is pretty silly for several reasons:
1) Microsoft is actually trying to address the problem. Why sue someone when they're already taking what actions they can to fix a problem?
2) It's a game console. What "damages" could there possibly have been? I have not heard a single report of houses burning down or any kind of *real* damage from this. Loss of play time is not, in my opinion, a damage.
3) Forced recalls - why, exactly? Many people *aren't* having problems. The ones who *aren't* having problems have no need to send their units in (and probably just wouldn't comply with a recall). People who *are* having problems will be getting their units replaced. What, exactly, would a recall do that isn't already being done? Shame them or something?
It just doesn't make *any* sense to me. If MS were to have said "Hey, fuck you - caveat emptor and all that shit" then yeah, sue em. But they sound like they're being pretty reasonable about how they're handling the problem, so again, what's the point? Lawsuits are there to force actions when the appropriate action isn't being taken, which is not the case here. (Or doesn't seem to be)
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
Personally, I think seeking personal damages may be not so legit. However, he does want some other things that ARE legit.
1. A recall.
2. Compensation for his legal fees. After all, if the court finds that Microsoft must issue a recall, they should pay for not having done it voluntarily and making this guy put up money for legal expenses to make it happen.
I find this utterly absurd, and upsetting too.... This is what our country is coming too? You just get to sue anyone you want to and try to get rich?
To be completely honest, I don't care if his xbox is freezing up from overheating, I don't recall microsoft promising that the xbox would not overheat, and there have yet to be any cases of the system starting a fire or some such thing, so If its not dangerous, then there is no legal case.
Every time someone bought a computer that overheated and shut down they could sue the computer company for damages? At the most, you deserve a new system, or to get yours repaired, and thats it.
I'll also add, that in my opinion, all the cases of xbox overheats are cuased by end-users that are not smart enough to keep it in a well ventilated place. It is an incredibly powerful computer dissipating several hundred watts of power. It is simply impossible for it to work in a closed cabinet, or if the power supply is set behind it wherein the xbox draws in hot air.
Sorry to go on a rant, and I'm not defending consumer electronics companies that send out flakey hardware, but you took a risk on buying one of the first units off the shelf, and regardless of whether or not it works you have no right to file litigation against the company. Get a refund for your box, i'm sure they'll be happy to give you one, and thats all.
Big ones, small ones, some as big as yer 'ead!
Give 'em a twist, a flick o' the wrist...
... run about 3% and are being replaced for free; please read http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=170258&c id=14188093 and shut up...
-everphilski-
"I think there's some sci-fi book where the loser and his lawyer dies. That might work too, but I don't think most people would go for that."
Unfortunately, I think too many of these intellectually defunct cases win, in which case, the winner should be killed with thier legal team. There are people that will go for it, but lawyers won't. It's the same reason why the lawyers that give law a bad name vote against any legislation that would fine a lawyer for bringing a case that is an ultimate waste of time and heated breath.
Keep in mind, I don't have an actual prejudice against all lawyers, but there's a saying that 99% of lawyers give the rest a bad reputation. I'm not buying that percentage, but enough rotten apples have spoiled the bunch (i.e. Jack Thompson) in the public eye. In the realm of ethics for legal practice, the current situation should be given some greater scrutiny. Just look at all the sour legal BS in technology patents and copyright. I think any career should have a strong ethical review of some sort, but law takes the cake because most violations of said ethics usually have to pursue recourse through the courts.
Perfecting Discordia
www.stevenvansickle.com
...nevermind.
Please read.... http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=170258&c id=14188093 ...
-everphilski-
You know, it saddens me that an entire new generation of geeks is coming into the world and will never actually grasp the meaning of #@Sg8FG$%$#(([NO CARRIER].
*sigh* The memories...
Oh... In Soviet Russia, the modem carrier drops YOU!
"You smell that? Do you smell that?... litigation, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that. I love the smell of litigation in the morning."
"Smells like... power supply."
I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
Well, there is this friend of mine who is well, waay adipose and chronically out of a job.
;)
This guy spent four days in front of his classic Xbox only stopping the game when his wrist had a fracture.
Man, if only I'd live in the United states and not in germany we would have gotten rich together. I would have made this a case to remember:
"Look at that sad man, no love, no job, no perspective and your freakin' large controller even ruined his gaming experience!". But well, in germany this gets you nowhere....
Looks like I gotta look for another way to cash in on other peoples misery... Any ideas welcome!
A friend of mine made a post on our IRL pals forum that I thought I'd share...
"""
Lets be fair here - i'm no fanboy, but even I have to admit its not just Microsoft.
Sega Genisis - Crashes games
SNES - at launch batteries were being drained faster from cartidge then supposed to (not sure what this means)
N64 - At launch wouldn't read some cartridges
PSOne - Wouldn't read some games, laser would lways fall out of alignment, and system would overheat
Dreamcast - Overheating
PS2 - Scratch the hell out of people's DVD Movies as well as some games, majority of systems at launch would overheat
XBox - Overheating problems on some systems
XBox 360 - CPU not functional, overheating, scratching disks
"""
MoM++ - A Classic Expanded - [Master of Magic 1.5]
http://mompp.sourceforge.net/
What I hear is that the xbox over heats, possibly because it's in an enclosed space.
Microsoft has designed a home entertainment system. Despite what the manual says about placement, is it reasonable that MS could expect users to stack the device with other audio/video equipment in a living room cabinet?
Nah! Just kidding! If anything, Sony and others selling consumer electronics are also sweating bullets as suing the manufacturer over every little thing becomes the first course of action rather than the last resort. Having lawyers more than willing to take on every such case does not help matters. So this isn't a Sony plot, but if Sony gets sued on the PS3 launch, well now that's another matter because we all know how evil Microsoft is...riiiiight?
Seriously, I don't expect this to have very long legs at all. Without admitting any design defect, Microsoft will probably roll out a modified model that will probably cost them less to manufacture and run cooler in about six months. That's usually how these things work out. So owning the first generation of new console hardware usually isn't the best idea if you can stand to wait.
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
it seems that there is a new simple factor to know if
the legal system works or not.
It doesn't work when:
The victim screams "I"m going to be billionaire!" in front of his defect machine.
I think there's some sci-fi book where the loser and his lawyer dies. That might work too, but I don't think most people would go for that.
You might be thinking of the Gowachin courtarena in "The Dosadi Experiment". It's nicely described here. Good book.
"Anyone that has ever gotten an idea based on any of my work and done something better with it-good for you."--J.Carmack
Frank Herbert, either Whipping Star or The Dosadi Experiment
The power supply is also a heat problem. That's what the lawsuit is about.
Unless you were personally holding the defective power unit when it overheated, thereby causing 2nd or 3rd degree burns, not be able to play with your new toy for a week or two is not grounds for emotional stress or pain and suffering.
I've had to deal with the microsoft hardware department a couple times myself for my mouse (plus a few times for work but I'll keep the corporate support seperate). Because of the way the cable was fed into the mouse it had a nasty habit of breaking the wires and causing the mouse to behave irratically. Both times I called them they sent me a brand new mouse, free of charge, and never asked for the old one back. The last times I even got one of the newer styles and haven't had a problem since. I've never had a hassle from them and never once thought about a lawsuit. From the sounds of it, their XBox support is about the same.
Anyone aware of the XBox or PS history should know that by buying the systems on the release date they are just asking for trouble. Best to wait for revision 2 or 3 to come around. Thats being said, I haven't heard the same about Nintendo and depending on price I will probably buy a Revolution as soon as it's out, but I also wouldn't be too upset if something like this happened then.
When you buy leading edge tech, you've essentially signed up to be unpaid testers. A lot of problems can only be discovered when you move from a few hundred test machines in controlled environments to thousands of machines out in the wild.
Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
And build a fucking wind tunnel around all Playstation 3 consoles, to prevent overheating.
as it were.
A blog about stuff.
Microsoft sued over alleged Xbox 360 glitch [headline]
/., who reads manuals), but if you take a 360 a stuff in a location that doesn't have good air flow then I'm not surprised the unit is crashing. FWIW, I have mine in an open AV rack that has plenty of ventilation and I've had the thing on for over straight hours at one point and it didn't crash on me. Not all that time was playing games--the last 2+ hours of was playing it and MCE 2005, but when you can justify the purchase to the wife by streaming HD pr0n onto the HDTV, it's worth the time.
"A Chicago man who bought Microsoft Corp.'s new
Xbox 360 has sued the world's largest software maker, saying the new video game console has a design flaw that causes it to overheat and freeze up...."
My car has a glitch/design flaw as well. If I start it and leave the keys in the ignition and then get out of my car and lock the doors, I can't get back into my car without modding my car's window or calling in "experts" (legally registered tax paying business, or the type registered by the sheriff's department).
I have a 360 and it does run hot....they need to have proper ventilation, probably more so than any other computer or A/V component I've ever owned. I'm not sure how well the manual states this as I never read them (hey this is
Now was it wise of MS/partners to design it this way (to run as hot as it does and require so much ventilation)? Who knows what their design specs say. But just image taking your tower PC, shrinking by a factor of 4-5 times and then cranking up the CPU/GPU full throttle and think about how much heat would be generated. I'm not saying it's an excuse, but owners of some of the new high powered high tech toys may need to be educated on how well this ptoys work as a space heater.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a fat white guy who is threatened by change."
I know that this will be modded down, but, seriously, I find it really ironic that just because MS has made something that ./ers like, suddenly a majority of posters think they shouldn't be held accountable for outputting crap.
If this were any other Microsoft product, everyone would be supporting this guy/joining the suit/boycotting Microsoft.
sigh..
Under German law, it's basically loser pays, but the winning party can't enforce their claims unless they get an extra statement from the judge ("Kostenfestsetzungsbeschluss"). The Kostenfestsetzungsbeschluss specifies a percentage of the winner's legal fees ("Prozesskosten") that has to be paid by the losing party. In practice, this works rather well; if the little guy sues the car company and loses, he only has to pay a part of their legal fees, usually a comparatively small one.
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
The George Foreman Grill: XBox 360 Edition. Fraggin' and fryin' galore.
Hades, PoD: Official Advocate
"If the company is only responsible for fixing the problem, then there is little incentive to get it right the first time."
I disagree. I find the ability to turn out quality products to be a consideration in my purchases. Others do as well I imagine.
How long will a company stay in business turning out broken junk?
(and yes I realize I'm talking about MS which is world renowned for turning out broken junk, but I think you'll agree the market is different for consoles)
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
Anyone can sue anyone else no matter how stupid it is, and there won't be any repurcussions except more money for the lawyers. What we really need is some system in place where the loser pays to further discourage stupid lawsuits.
Yes, but it costs time and some money to go through all of the red tape to get a trial started. The lawyer may do the work for free upfront with the only payment being a large chunk of the settlement. The lawyer is not going to waste his time with a "stupid" lawsuit. Its not worth their time or reputation.
To some degree, I do believe that the loser should pay for the expenses. But that too is built into the system. You don't sue people for money that don't have any money. Thats dumb. Large corporations that get sued can and have to pay to protect their reputation and their pocket book. They cannot just get eaten a piece of a time and just give people money every time they ask for it.
Also, judges can throw out cases. I'm not sure about how the lawsuit disappeared with the fat people suing McDonald's, but that went away. I've never really heard of too many frivolous lawsuits. Yes, there are stupid examples like the robber suing the house owner for getting hurt while robbing their house, or the guy suing a ladder company for falling from a ladder that was in frozen shit that melted or whatever. I'm not even sure if these are true or urban legends. But I don't believe that this is a frivolous lawsuit. Worse case scenario is that MS will win, but be extra careful before releasing an untested product.
Your right, I don't like the way it was posted either. It should have read, "a Chicago jackass, who is attempting to cash in on the usual failure rate of a new piece of consumer electronics, has sued Microsoft"... because that is all this is.
All new consumer electronics have a failure rate, I bought a Sony TV a couple of years ago that had problems with the bulbs blowing out on the new sets. It sucked and it was around the holidays and it was my christmas gift, but Sony had a number I could call and I could get a replacement bulb. Just like Microsoft has right now.
Until it becomes apparent that the 360 has an unusually high failure rate or Microsoft is refusing to replace defective units, I'm going to hold off on accusing them of "pumping shit out to the customer before it is ready".
As for "When playing games is THAT important life must truly be sad", get off your high horse and take a look in the mirror. That logic can apply to just about everything. "When you spend a chunk of your day posting on message boards, life must truely be sad", edit ad nauseum. I get it you don't think playing games should be that important. I DON'T CARE. Unless you spend your days having sex with supermodels or curing cancer or curing the cancer of the supermodels you have sex with, I think you're wasting your life as well. Your value judgements mean nothing to me. I'm not even going to toss out the usual disclaimer that I'm not a gamer, or I am a gamer, because that DOESN'T MATTER. Either way I think you're an asshole (see what I did there, if not then my point is entirely lost on you).
Yes this mensa probably expects everything to work 100% 24/7 365. Here's a clue you didn't have to buy it, nobody had a gun to your head and it doesn't mean life and death to you if it breaks.
he should take it back to the store, electronics are not perfect. It doesnt seem to happen to everyone, just a few
You obviously havn't lived in another country where you pretty much *can't sue* for anything.
I doubt this guy is going to get very much money, but thanks to him MS will probably work harder and faster to get those users who's XBox's are f*^& and get them replacements ASAP.
If it's like any of the other stories I've heard, MS is making him jump through loopholes saying his system is fine, and that if it isn't, he's still going to have to wait for X amount of months for a replacement. To me, that is being screwed over by the big guys.
In other countries I've lived it (and I love them), if you buy a defective product, your screwed. Unless it's a company who's very credible and wants to preserve their image more than abidding by the small amount of law that is required, then you're stuck with shit.
Until you get butt-raped by a company, I don't think you learn to appreciate what makes America so nice were you actually have a voice to fix things you think are wrong. All other contries I've lived in you would either be killed by the company, get death threats, or the judge would get paid off and you'd be even more screwed.
Just my 2 cents.
What about... (I have no knowledge of any kind about law but that hasn't stopped anyone else from posting so...) If you initiate the the lawsuit (You sue someone) and you lose then you have to pay all the lawyer fees plus some kind of Court Cost. Now except for a big company that would offer some kind of deterrence. At least it would to me.
~Should i be worried when the real world starts lagging?
Well, if you spill coffee you bought in your lap, and end up in the hospital for a couple weeks while they treat you for third-degree burns, and the place you bought the coffee from had repeatedly been warned that they were serving coffee that was too hot for human consumption when it was received by the customer, perhaps you'd have a lawsuit.
Anyone who claims that lawsuit was stupid doesn't know what the lawsuit was about.
"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
if I waited in line 6 hours, fought customers just to purchase a broken item for my kid who is crying, then if I called Microsoft and got the run around, hell yeah I would sue
Yah, sue them, that's totally the solution to your problem.
OK I'm trolling, but this comment really pissed me off. It's people like you who make this country of ours such a worthless pile of shit. Asshole.
Joseph?
Yes, these lawsuits are stupid, but there are two things to consider here (speaking in general, I don't know the specifics of this case, but I can say that this person _deserves_ no more than a replacement Xbox and maybe $100 or a few free games to make up for missing out on the launch day fun. What they'll ask for/get is, I'm sure, another matter): firstly, if any of us can make a significant amount of money from doing very little work - why not? The system's broken anyway, others are exploiting it, so maybe we shouldn't be so hard on these people for joining in. If someone told you that you could have $1000000 for nothing except exploiting a system that's getting fucked over anyway, would you really be that bad for taking it?
That leads to my second point: whose fault is it that the legal and social structures are fucked (i.e. a judge doesn't throw out ridiculous cases _and_ a jury sides with these people)? Could it be the big evil corporations that tell people what to think? I honestly don't know, but the likes of Sony, MS, McDs etc. who generally get hit by these lawsuits are all partially responsible for the state of the 'developed' world anyway.
Maybe I'm feeling extra cynical today, but it just looks to me like the system's screwed anyway, so just make the most of it. Corporations are the epitome of selfishness, and many people are going the same way. Perhaps it's time to give up and go with the flow, because I'm losing sight of any other way to 'win' here.
http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=170258&c id=14188093
-everphilski-
Microsoft invented the frying pan/game console. Play Quake4 and make you dinner at the same time.
WoW!! When playing games is THAT important life must be truly sad.
Did you say World of Warcraft?
Long Live Atari!!!
Anyone can sue anyone else no matter how stupid it is
Not exactly true, the civil judge examines the suit for grounds and validity, if the civil judge finds that the suit lacks one or both of these it can (and very often is) thrown out/dismissed and the lawyer(s) who filed suit is(are) sactioned for wasting court time.
Too many sanctions, and the lawyer gets disbarred.
Say bad words about my book, in cold oatmeal, or I shall sue!
I think it is about time someone took a stand against companies pumping shit out to the customer before it is ready.
...
It's JUST a GAME BOX!!! Hello!!!
Take your own advice.
Er, Ralph Nader?
-- I have a private email server in my basement.
I agree 100% about the lawsuit, pretty cheese ball, but didn't they have a similar problem with the power cords on the regular Xbox's earlier this year. AFAIK for 360 now it's the actual power supply, but you would think there would be more vigorous testing considering the recall earlier this year?
-- Brought to you by Carl's JR
"It's JUST a GAME BOX!!! Hello!!!
WoW!! When playing games is THAT important life must be truly sad."
And yet you think it's important enough to tie up the legal system over.
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
[In the year 2015]
:)
Doc: The justice system works swiftly in the future now that they've abolished all lawyers.
I guess we can all dream
I enjoy large posteriors and I cannot prevaricate.
In this example, if you get sued by the RIAA, and the RIAA wins, you were almost certainly guilty, and as such, were stupid to go to court with them. Obviously, the RIAA has had it's infamous screw-ups, but we're talking about judgements that result in criminal convictions, and those judgements are held to the whole "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard. The RIAA can have all the money in the world, but it's still illegal to draw out trials, and money won't affect any decisions made by the appellate courts to hear the appeal that the RIAA would make if it lost the 'first round').
But to be fair (I really am just playing devil's advocate here, IIRC, the RIAA doesn't try to recoup legal fees), this does rely on the presumption that the little guy can win against the RIAA if he's innocent. But then again, doesn't everything concerning convictions/payments/jailtime assume that?
A similar case was when DirecTV was suing people for having hacked cards to view all the channels for free. I have a "friend" who did this, and he was pretty much expecting the letter demanding $3,000 (the out of court settlement requested to avoid a trial). He kept very close attention to other's cases in his state, and until he found a case where the defendent was able to get the case thrown out (setting a precedent), he had is $3,000 saved up because going to court against DirecTV when he was guilty would've been stupid (and I believe this was a civil suit, which is held to a lesser standard ('preponderence of evidence')).
Why hasn't someone filed a class action lawsuit over defective SOFWTARE against M$?
There's nothing about that on the Xbox or Microsoft site.
Exactly it's JUST A GAME BOX and should not be something you can sue a company over. Admittedly Microsoft needs to step up and replace the defective units but as you said "It's JUST a GAME BOX!!!" and the guy should not get his panties in such a bunch over the game box. Is he going to claim dire stress and fits of anxiety over the box freezing up on him? So instead of trying to exchange a defective unit or just never buy from that manufacturer again we should sue them? That's your solution to the age old issue of bottom line superceding quality?
Why are people who bought an XBox from Microsoft unhappy about the defects, crashes and other problems ?
After all it is a "Branded Product", and a "Brand is a 'promise'" it is supposed to work a certain way, for instance an apple product is supposed to be "cool" a little bit different in usage, and a little bit more expensive, a volvo is supposed to be real safe, etc...
And of course a microsoft product is supposed to be full of bug, the real price of "ownership" is hard to find and to understand, and most of the average user cannot even figure out that there might be an alternative.
So for all this the Xbox delivers, it crashes, the price does not reflect the real price but do not worry microsoft will pull the cash out of the game writers (and no there will be no Free and Open Source Games running on it), and most of the buyer are far to alienated to understand that under no circumstance should you buy one.
Why do people keep perpetuating this myth? The PS2 had optical drive errors, yes, but they didn't happen at launch. They happened to launch units 1-3 years after purchase. I should know, I was one of them (on the 3+ year side of it). Personally, I'm quite happy getting 3-years out of most things. I mean, I don't think I've even willingly kept a computer that long before.
IMHO It would make a LOT more sense (both economically and proving in court) to mass-sue M$ for their main products.. M$Windows (pick any variant) has repeatively been proven buggy (and dangerously insecure) and needs constant Upgrades. Also that OS needs to be re-purchased every two/three years.. In last 10 or so years ... Windows 95, 98, SE, ME, Win2k WInXP ... and each time you'll not only have to pay the OS but also all Applications (Office being the biggest culprit with Outlook) and a new or expensively upgraded hardware so that it could been kept running even allmost decent speed.
And it's not even over.. sometime soon (2006) one needs to buy all new PC+monitor to run their next Bug-fix release (vista)...
Eat it. My balls that is.
At minimum the court should require Microsoft to send every owner of one of these units a piece of string, with instructions. It wouldn't cost them that much, but it's the principle of the thing, now isn't it?
Of course, at their option, Microsoft could instead offer replacement units (without the problem) instead of the string-fix kit. Their marketing, legal, and financial departments could duke it out over which way to go on that.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
The XBox 360 and power supply were designed poorly. Quit acting like it's some cutting edge piece of hardware that shouldn't be held to the same standards as any other game console that came before it or will come after it. I hate these ridiculous law suits just like most other rational people, but at least I'm against it for the right reasons.
...it's an obvious cash-in on this XBox 360 shortage-hype. So I find myself secretly hoping that the lawsuit meets with some small degree of success, and says to those launching future consoles "SEE! THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MACHINES TO MAKE ANYTHING BUT A HALF-ASSED LAUNCH! Now quit screwing your customers and ship enough units." ...and I realize there's a logical disconnect in there somewhere, but hey, a guy can hope.
Right. Pay-your-own-fees means people can't afford to win, and loser-pays means they can't afford to lose.
The solution, obviously, is to make lawyers work for free.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
I seem to run across at least one defective product almost daily, and I think our society has come to the point where they have just almost started to accept defects for the most part. This subpar outlook towards the products we purchase as consumers has lead towards manufacturers lowering their standards even further. I congratulate this guy for suing Microsoft if they released a product for $400 to early and never disclosed that it was going to have the overheating/crashing issues that many owners seem to be having.
Thank you Microsoft for now bringing me reminders of what my desktop PC is like running Windows XP, it wasn't enough that you had taken over my cell phone as well, but now you are goinbgn to screw up my living room.
While true that the devices are becoming more complex, wouldn't one expect quality control/processes to evolve with the more complex devices?
Like I said, lawsuit aside. Does the power brick not work on carped?
My unit can at times exhaust 140F air. If you put the brick behind the unit, it will shut down. Does MS mention this specifically in the manual? No, and they should.
But it has a 3-foot cable. If you put it in your entertainment center, you're crazy. It's even difficult to do, since the cable is so thick and so long, it's like coiling up a cobra in your entertainment center.
Put the behind the entertainment center (I did), even on carpet, it will work. You do not have to put it on strings. Just because you read that on the internet doesn't mean it's true.
As to people always putting their console "under the TV or on the floor", well, yeah, I understand that. But things will be different now, and it isn't MS' fault. This thing uses more power than my PC does. It's simply not going to work like the video games you're used to, no matter how much you wish it were so.
MS has two choices. Don't make a next-gen machine, or print in the manual the warnings. And they did the latter (at least mostly). So why is it MS' fault again?
If you reasonably expect to put your video game under your TV in an enclosed space, then you need to get a PS2. If you want a video game that doesn't run hot, get a PS2. That's the only real answer. You cannot wave a wand and make the unit produce less heat or consume less power, not and do what it is capable of doing. I completely understand if someone wants to "opt out" of the current generation of video games, at least until they get smaller process chips to reduce the power consumption. But I cannot understand that people want to have their cake and eat it too.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
I think a fair judgement would be to force Bill Gates to stand out in the cold for a week in line with hundreds of his coworkers for the oppurtunity at midnight on the 6th night to get trampled by people rushing to get their refunds from his wallet.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
When you purchase a product expecting it to work and it doesn't you are denied entertainment. Time spent playing a game only to have it lock up is time lost that could have been invested in a competitors game much like the video could have been rented to someone else.
Wanted: Clever sig, top $ paid, all offers considered.
Demand Bill Gates to serve as human support for your XBOX's power supply.
:D
Best of both worlds!
These machines are still under warranty and most stores will even let you turn them in for a 100% refund in the first month or so without a restocking fee.
All MS has to do to short-circuit this is to announce a generous you-have-until-2-weeks-after-Christmas return-by-mail policy and bribe stores to do the same.
This will take almsot all the wind out of the lawyers' sails.
As for damages to furniture due to overheating, that can be done on a case-by-case basis.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
nt
We seem to have very high standards for say auto manufactors whenever there exists a problem. Why shouldn't a company who is pushing a electric consumer product be under the same scrutinty.
Well, we don't hold them to the same scrutiny because when autos fail, they kill people. When entertainment devices fail, you're just frustrated.
If legal action is what it takes to get them to make good on the promises of their system, so be it. But in general, I think that the damages awarded for a lawsuit shouldn't be vindictive. In other words, if I'm suing about a bad Xbox, and it took me basically three work weeks to bring my case, they should pay me three weeks worth of my normal salary, replace my system, issue an apology and a recall, and go on with life. Nobody should become a millionaire.
Someone might say, "yeah, but if you don't make them pay big time, they won't reform." But in a sane world, a company that makes a truly bad product would pay big time in the form of lost sales - and that would make them reform faster than anything. There is no law that says you have to buy something, regardless of the hype.
This was posted before!
oops... my bad. Not a dupe, that one was about the old XBox.........
Given the reports recently and the extreme eagerness to sue, It is possible the guy might have known about the defect and bought the console just to sue. If I was a Microsoft lawyer I would certainly look into this possibility.
Conveniently nicknamed XBox 911.
Because the majority of units sold were bought to be resold on Ebay and haven't been played yet.
It sickens me to see the morally ignorant champion the cause of the unjust and wicked. It seems that the younger generation lacks any back bone at all for what's good and correct in the world. More and more often I see a sub 30s something argue in favor of stealing, cheating, lying and even murder. This is downfall of our modern society and the doom of our future unless we that know what is good and just stand and fight for those things we know to be correct. This is more than simply an Xbox that over heats this is about a company that knowingly has stolen from the public more than once and continues to do so as a business model. Microsoft was well aware that the Xbox was prone to overheating I assure you. They may not have found out till close to the release date and decided to roll the dice that more consumers would simply roll over and take the inferior and broken product rather than protest it. It would have cost MS far more to simply correct the problem and delay release than to see how many would actually return the ill designed units for repairs. Law suits sadly are the only way to force large companies to do what is right since they refuse to do it on their own so file away and let them suffer the pains of lost profits until they learn the lesson of honest business practices and good customer relations. For those that continue to argue in favor of the theft of my hard earned money I say shame on you.
Karma: a simple way of silencing those with unpopular views regardless how correct or just that view might be.
I think the general issue here is you're putting an environmentally sensetive device in the hands of the masses, and as I'm sure 90% of the IT professionals here that have served tech support can tell you, the masses are flaming idiots.
The XBox360 itself does run very hot. Mine I keep in an open AV cabinet with plenty of ventilation and I keep the PSU in a cool area as well. The XBox360 itself is pretty much a super-charged PC in a space 1/10th a standard PC's size. So of course it's going to run hot, and people should take the proper measures.
The design of the XBox360 was one that had to meet a few goals.
1) Had to look cool
2) Had to be smaller or as small as original XBox
3) Had to have adequate cooling WHILE not producing excessive noise from fans and other cooling elements
So Microsoft had to compromise on #3. They had to have the fans run quiet enough so people wouldn't yell, "OMG, ITS TOO LOUD!".. yet have them run fast enough where people wouldn't yell "OMG, MY XBOX IS OVERHEATING NO MATTER WHAT!"
With any manufactured device, there are going to be failures, be it mechanical failure or failure due to the manufacturing process. I'm sure if someone wrote CNN every time one of their Hard Drives died, or every time they got a bad pixel on an LCD, you'd see many other CONSUMER ALERTS for MASS HARDWARE FAILURE, but you don't. Because we've all been using computers long enough to know that with anything, sometimes you just get a bum device and have to get a new one.
Why is the XBox360 different from other computer devices? Well, as I see it, two reasons:
Reason #1 -- It's Microsoft, easy target for hate from some people.
Reason #2 -- There's nothing we can do. The reason Intel doesn't get sued because their CPU's run too hot, is because as consumers we can crack open our case and swap out the cooling with a solution that better fits our needs. Unfortunately, we cannot do this with the XBox360 because there are no alternatives to the cooling and it would void your warranty.
What are we to do?
Well, personally, I haven't had a single issue with the Xbox360 that was worth even getting on the phone over. It has locked up twice, but this isn't the first time in my 24 years that a console game as locked up on me. I recall RC Pro-AM locking up on level 98 and almost having a stroke.
For those of you having issues, explore every option in making sure it's in the proper environment before immediately pointing to hardware defect. If this still doesn't work, just call Microsoft and open up an RMA. Their process takes no more than 4 days before you'll have a new Xbox360 in your hot little hands.
I think the whole point is that when you don't have to worry about legal fees in a situation where you'll win the lawsuit, you won't get to a point where you run out of money and cannot afford to defend yourself anymore.
quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
What no 420 edition?
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Business/story?id =1341972&page=
Note the number at the bottom, for troubleshooting and replacement.
I think it's stupid to do a lawsuit when you can just get another one. Is it because his ego was damaged due to his imperfect xbox after he stayed up all night waiting in line to get it? Seriously, it is a game console; if you stayed up all night that is your problem, and if it doesn't work right you have the right to get one that does work, but not to sue because you weren't able to impress all the 1337 ch1ck5 on your block. Lemon law man... you don't sue the car company that offers to replace the car because it wouldn't start after the first day of use... it's not like you had emotional scarring (and if you did, over a malfunctioning xbox, then you have bigger issues).
Ok, after about 2 weeks of this i have had about enough. As an Electrical Engineer i am furious that geeks everywhere are irate about power supply issues. Now correct me if i am wrong but isn't it standard practice to give electronic components plenty of ventilation. I mean i knew this when i was little. I use to put clothes on top of my component stero because it was convient. Low and Behold months later the stereo become hot and died. Didnt take a Genius to figure out what the cooling slots were for. Dont all you geeks run zalman coolers on your processors, and create water cooled wind tunnels for your computers! I mean did you expect a 3.2Ghz processor to just consume a measly 100mw ? We shove 500 W power supplies in our computers and still complain about not having enough power. Nvidia and ATI require extra 12V power connectors because they chew so much. yet we didn't go on a suing band wagon when pc's crashed because they overstressed power supplies.
Now about the PSU. yes it shouldn't overheat, but as it is becoming obvious there are various suppliers and other distributors of this psu. Wouldn't it be reasonable to suspect that the design was fine in testing but a batch of bad parts is the cause and not the design itself! You geeks kill me. As soon as something crashes you criticize it because it doesn't run linux or some OSS software. Then you go on a tirade about the design being flawed and if you were the engineer you would have considered such things. As an engineer i have seen products fail hundreds of times not because the design is flawed, but because some part distributor supplied a bad batch of parts. In a power supply it just takes one diode or a bad inductor or even a faulty cap, and then you get motorboating and unstable voltages, and guess what happens when that occurs. Yes you guessed it lots of HEAT! And that assumes if the device even powers on.
Now this doesn't absolve Microsoft from responsibility. They still need to replace the faulty units / or power supplies. However, this doesn't warrant a lawsuit. Especially when the manual warns you to place in a ventilated area. I am sick and tired of companies getting sued because end users are not reading the frickin manual!
Just a small clarification: NO suit that the RIAA files against an individual is anything but a civil suit. Private individuals and corporations don't get to "sue" criminally. If they want criminal charges, they have to bring a complaint to the appropriate prosecutorial authority (federal/state/local) and that authority will then send anchoose whether or not to file charges.
Some folks get confused because the basis of the RIAA lawsuits is potentially a criminal act (depending on the particular jurisdiction) but the lawsuit itself is entirely a civil matter. The RIAA doesn't get to sue anyone into jail.
Right now the judges already have the power to throw out frivolous cases. I don't know why they don't use it but I would not trust a judge to decide what is and what is not a frivolous case. I think that should be left up to a jury.
evil is as evil does
http://hardware.teamxbox.com/movies/2738/Xbox-360- Scratches-a-Disc/
Looks like another law suite in the works....damn defective consoles.
oh..wait...didn't read the instructions
"IMPORTANT:
To avoid jamming the DVD drive and damaging discs or the Xbox 360 console:
-Remove discs before moving the console or tilting it between the horizontal and vertical positions.
-Never use cracked discs. They can shatter inside the console and jam or break internal parts.
-When the console is vertical, do not use discs that are smaller than standard DVDs and CDs."
Guess they should have included something about not placing your 3.2 GHZ CPU and 500 W PSU in the same unventelated drawer under you TV or burried in 3" shag carpet under a pile of cords.
Yeah, you ship 1/2 million of any product and there will be some defective ones. To amplify the defective issues is also the fact the MS sold all 1/2 million units on the exact same day - hell, same morning. None of that is indicative of a flaw in the design and has more to do with the manufacturing process - and you don't need a 6Sigma black belt to tell you that.
I am really just in awe of how easily the media, and more so /.ers, put their all trusting faith into forum posters and polls - none of which are not crediable news sources last time I checked.
MS hating, like so many of you love to do, is one thing but at least have some validity and not just stupidity behind your hatered.
Or if the controllers spiked your hands, or emitted powerful electric shocks
Dude, that's a feature.
It is a solemn thought: dead, the noblest man's meat is inferior to pork.
Liberalism: See Conservatism
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
> The solution, obviously, is to make lawyers work for free.
Which outlines the greastest problem with the Western legal system:
Justice should not cost money!
Let me repeat that:
Justice should be free!
Don't want it to get too warm in mom's basement.
You know, I saw some reporter make this $99 statement on the nightly news when the story first broke, but I can't find any written proof of such thing. Horrible misreporting on her part, and mine. Oops!
-Patrick
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
So you take it back to the store and exchange it, or you call up Microsoft and arrange a RMA, same as *ANY OTHER DEFECTIVE PRODUCT EVER*. Suing is stupid. It doesn't change the facts (you can still exchange/RMA the product), but now you've made a lawyer rich for nothing as well and wasted a whole ton of people's time.
Comment of the year
Sure, become a cog in the very system you despise. Then you won't even have to leave home to make these sort of complaints about the world you live in! "Hey, I'm an asshole! Wow!" The next obvious step is to file suit against yourself for slander! Wow! This kind of life can be yours, if only you chose to be the lowest common denominator!
I do and it works fine... PDZ and Cal of Duty 2 haven't yet been a problem..nor has the overheating. I'm willing to bet that 99% of the people yipping about Microsoft here don't have a 360 and only believe what they read. I'm willing.
Excessive litigation against corporations is actually good.
Corporations "invented" excessive litigation it does not hurt to feed them with their own medicine.
I wish that part of the sales taxes were to be set aside in each country for a fund to create consumer protection legal fees for easier class action suits. I am quite certain that it could have substantial influence on corporate behaviour.
That would indeed offer some kind of deterrence.
Perhaps too much.
emt 377 emt 4
As an engineer, I see this primarily as blindly grasping at form and fumbling function as a direct consequence. I don't think it is excusable; I don't have a problem with requiring reasonable vent space on the main unit, but having to hang the cord tumor by string... that's way, way, way over the top. Can you imagine trying to use one of these in an apartment without air conditioning? Probably set the bloody building on fire. :/
I'm really glad I waited. I have five to buy — three sons, one for me, one for the lady of the house — I think MS really impregnated the canine, here. We'll see what batch #2 looks like. In the meantime, XBox1 will do.
And BTW... All of our PS2's are original launch units -- and they're all still working fine.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Maybe I should follow suit (hehe pun intended) and sue apple for my iPod screen scratching too easily.
Consumers right number 1 - The product must be capable of performing the task for which it was sold! It seems to me, that Microsoft have been marketing this as a living room, multimedia/game centre and as such should expect it to be put into video cabinets and tv units... where it promptly overheats! They should recall them all and redesign the power unit or cooling so it can perform the task it was designed to do in the expected environment for this type of unit. /.ers trying to insinuate that the blame is with the stupid end user for putting it in a cupboard with his dvd player is nonesense. This is precisely where Microsoft want to be in your TV cabinet and that is how they marketed it.
They blew it and should fix the mess up with a recall.
(that would be the right thing to do, but we all know they will not do the right thing)
With respect to placing iPods in pockets, you're completely wrong here. I have many friends that own full size iPods or Minis (I have a Mini) and I can tell you that we plop those badboys in our pockets (or worse in the case of my female friends - purses) every day and I have yet to see a friend's be in the same condition as a fresh out of the pocket Nano. Heck, I've even dropped my mini riding on a bike at 15 mph onto asphalt (ahh good times, good times) with less damage than my buddy's two day old Nano.
Maybe I'm just lucky, and maybe my friends are abnormal to keep full sized iPods in their pockets, but you shouldn't be overgeneralizing like that...
The penny just dropped that USians are currently in winter - makes you wonder how many more irate xbob owners there will be when summer comes around and brings ambient tempts up a good 10 degs (celsius, naturally!) or so.
Has anyone thought that maybe it's not the heat that's making the 360's crash and maybe just the fact that it's running Microsoft software?
invested in a competitors game
Playing computer games is not an investment. It's fun and not a bad way to chill for a couple hours, but it is no more an investment than watching T.V.. An investment implies that at somepoint you be rewarded by receiving some form of returns.
Was the 8-hours you spent playing the game before it crashed fun? If yes, than playing a competitor's game wouldn't have made a difference. If no, why are you spending time playing things that are no fun?
This issues does deserve to have some attention called to it. Not just the power supply heating problem though, but other design defects/flaws/bad choices that really just shouldn't be there in a $400 piece of equipment.
The major issues with the X-box 360 seem to be:
1) The power supply can overheat. It seems most often this is due to poor placement of the power supply. Still, no mention is made anywhere about this problem. So what happens when your average Joe Shmoe consumer or kid gets their Xbox 360 and runs into this problem or sets their carpet on fire because they aren't told in the packaging of a design flaw?
2) Some Xbox 360's just outright have crashing problems not related to the power supply. This seems to be more the case of first batch of a new generation hardware defects. These happen all the time and can't be helped. And when you ahve a low supply like the 360 has, these tend to be more glaring than they really are. This is just an issue of replacing the system for a non-defective one. It stinks, but it happens.
3) Moving the 360 from a horizontal to vertical position, or vice versa, while a disc is spinning will result in serious disc scratching. Now, we're all tech guys so this is sort of no-duh to us. I mean all our PC's and similar hardware all are mostly the same way for that style of drive loading. That said, again it is a case of your average Joe probably won't realize this. I mean the unit is advertised as being equally useful in both a vertical and horizontal position. Sooner or later some dude is going to either accidentally knock the xbox into horizontal position, or move his 360 while in a game and ruin a game disc. Accidents happen, but Microsoft, again, has not advertised that this can even happen. So design choice, flaw, or what have you, it's still their problem.
Again, I think the suit is dumb and either some guy is going after cash or he or someone who paid him has an anti-microsoft agenda. But that doesn't change the fact that the issues are there and MS at the very least needs to make a more concerted effort to at least tell it's consumers what isn't recommended to do to avoid these things happen. That's just common sense business ethics right there.
You are who you are, let no one tell you different. But, never close your mind to a new point of view.
I sold all 4 of XBox 360 at SEARS, with 20 more people in line and 400 people calling on the phone...
These dudes don't need a game system,
they need to go out on some dates!
The only good thing I can say about the new XBOX
Well, At least it's not a SONY product!
It cools itself VERY well. It has far better cooling than the original Xbox.
Do you understand how cooling works? You can't "make cold". You just move heat out to somewhere else. Now, where do you move it to? Well, outside the Xbox 360 itself. The problem is, if you put the 360 in another box (a stereo cabinet), that stereo cabinet now contains all the heat generated by the 360. Unless this cabinet is designed to move the heat outside itself, the cabinet will overheat. The cabinet has completely defeated the cooling system of the 360.
Let's do another check. How is the cooling in your refrigerator? Pretty good, eh? It can get down to 10F in there! But the trick is, it is moving the heat to the back of the fridge, to the coils. So, now lets put that entire fridge in a box. The box contains not only the cold part (the actual fridge inside part) but also the coils too. The only thing breaching this box is the power cord, which supplies plently of power to inside the box. Where does that power go? It turns into heat, which is now all inside the box. So the box heats up. As the box heats up, unless the box can get rid of all its heat by radiation, it will eventually heat up inside until although the inside of the fridge is cooler than the outside, the inside is warmer than ambient outside the box.
I say again, are you sure you aren't asking MS to violate the laws of thermodynamics? Are you sure you even understand them?
The only solution to this problem would be for MS to reduce the power useage of the Xbox 360 until it is lower than the amount that a typical unvented stereo cabinet can radiate. They could surely do that, but can it be done with next-generation performance?
As to the power supply, if it truly overheats on regular carpet, then that's a shame. But honestly, I just don't buy it. Maybe on shag or something. But its vents are on the top, and not likely blocked by carpet. It even has fans in it (I hear). If it overheats when placed right behind the unit, or in an overwarm unvented stereo cabinet, then the solution is simply to move it out. The cable is long enough. Do it. MS really should state this in the manual, I'll grant you that.
But otherwise, the problem is not with the console, it's with you. If you don't feel that a box this hot is appropriate for your living room (and I do understand that), then don't buy it. You'll have to stick with PS2/Xbox 1/Gamecube type performance for now, because PS3 will have similar power dissapation, count on it. Later the PS3 and Xbox 360 will probably be put on a smaller geometry (65nm?) and thus use less power.
However, stating that MS messed up and that this should be cooler and MS is interesting but shows a complete lack of the technical issues.
So, again, either learn to live with it, or wait it out. But either way, it, is like it is because that's how power and thermodynamics works, and no amount of bitching at MS is going to change it.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
So what is the next step for Microsoft? I think they have 3 options:
I think they will opt for #3.
That both the overheating and the disc scratching are things mentioned in the manual adn are easily avoided? This is just some frivilous lawsuit that will make some lawyers rich (if it even gets that far) and not change a damn thing. If the PS3 and Rev are as powerful as the 360 you can bet they are also going to have heat issues, not to mention they will most likey also have warnings about changing orientation while there is a disc in the unit with the power on. This guy could have just phoned MS and got a replacement, but no he had to be a jackass and file a lawsuit. It's a well publicized launch without any competing next-gen machine to compare it to. So, everyone is jumping on the OMG!! bandwagon, when in reality it's most likely not that many units that are having major issues. We all know that people will complain loudly and praise faintly.
Disc scratching is Xbox problem (Thomson manufactured those drives), PS2 had no such problem.
It's not to hard to prove that MS hyped the Xbox360. Now suppose that this guy claims "I believed your advertisements" in court. What are they going to do, tell him not to trust their advertising?
PS: I wait a good year or two before buying any Shiny New Toy (TM). This helps sort the gems from the crap, and I don't think I'm missing out much -- it's just as if I were a year older, no?
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
Since when is it cheaper to produce a flawed product and then fix it rather than producing a product that works the first time?
... nowhere NEAR as cheap. Like, so dissimilar as to be a laughable analogy if you didn't seem so serious about it.
Didn't you just lose money fixing the problem that could have been avoided in the first place?
Hardware repairs are not so cheap as a simple software patch that can be posted online and downloaded
You don't even consider the damage to a company's reputation which, though Microsoft is disdained amongst geeks, most consumer's expect quality from.
What if MS had put a fridge in the Xbox 360? Surely, that'd be a good enough cooling system, wouldn't it? It'd have to be the best they could possibly do at any price, right? And it'd get down to below 32F in there! Surely, we're set up!
But what happens if you put this fridge-designed Xbox 360 in an entertainment console which doesn't vent any air? Since the "hot side" and "cool side" are now in the same box, it does nothing. And since the system is taking in energy, both to be a game machine, and also to (uselessly) move freon around, it will heat up in that box. The temperature in the box, even the cool side will rise until the box it is in can radiate heat well enough to maintain a stable temperature.
I will say it again, for the millionth time, you don't understand thermodynamics. No matter how good or poor MS' cooling system is, you completely defeat it (actually make it work against you) if you put it in a stereo cabinet that has no ventilation. Your fridge would not work if put in an enclosed space either. You simply don't have an enclosed space large enough to put it in. It will work in a corner, it won't work in a box. And also to note, it doesn't have anything inside it that is generating 160W of heat. It has stuff inside it that is generating exactly 0W of heat. It simply has to fight entropy, not fight actual heat generation.
As to this fridge you speak of using less power than an Xbox 360, a typical fridge in 2002 uses 440KWh of power per year http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/equipment/english/page16.cf m?PrintView=N&Text=N. That's 1200Wh per day. That's 1/3rd what an Xbox 360 would use if it were turned on all day (160W*24h/day = 3840Wh/day). And the Xbox 360 takes up only about 1/3 of a cubic foot, a standard fridge probably is about 20 cubic feet (on the outside), thus it has many times the surface area with which to radiate/convect heat away, oh, and unlike an Xbox in a sealed container, it can blow exhaust air to eliminate heat. So I mention again, are you really understanding what is going on here?
Again, the laws of thermodynamics don't give you the choice of making a completely enclosed cooling system work. It gives you a couple options:
1. Vent the enclosed space. This is the best option, but it isn't under MS' control.
2. Make the 360 work at the temperatures it could possibly reach if fully enclosed. If this were possible, then the Xbox 360 wouldn't even have a fan in the first place, because radiative/convective cooling would be enough to keep it running in all conditions. Note that since the exhaust temps on my 360 can reach 140F, that means making the 360 work when the entire system is significantly hotter than that.
3. Make the 360 use less power, and thus heat up less. This is definitely possible, but if done, it would make the system not a better performer than current generation systems.
4. Make the 360 large enough that it won't fit in any enclosure people are likely to have around (stereo cabinets). This would suck since the DVD drive on it is so damn loud. Plus it would cost too much to ship from where it is made.
So, 1 can't be done by MS. 2 can't be done by anyone. 3 & 4 make the unit unsellable.
What is your suggestion again? Oh, that MS should mention that you can't put it in an enclosed space. Did you perhaps check page 2 of the manual? http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/re trieve.cgi?attachment_id=581228&native_or_pdf=pdf
Xbox 360 doesn't overheat unless you restrict its good cooling system from working (by putting it in a box or possibly the power supply on deep shag). It's in the same place as your fridge, despite being at a significant handicap as to power dissipation and surface area.
I do think it's a shame that video games now use so much power and em
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Considering most of the hardcore-types spent the entire evening in the bitter cold in some Target parking lot waiting to get theirs first, maybe they should just set the tents back up and Mother Nature keep their systems from bursting into flame... ... or maybe they should set the tents up in Redmond...
I'm collecting overheating stories at http://www.xboxoverheating.com/ for anybody who has one to share.
basically i find its just a waste of our time not to mention a waste of the courts and microsofts time to sue them. if they are going to replace the units for free then why would you piss them off by suing them. im definately thinking that some greed is again setting in. i do agree that they shouldnt put out crap but i also think that suing them is just stupid. i mean it is the tax payers that pay for the courts right? so when you start suing there goes your tax dollars. you are literally paying to sue someone for money? so really you gain no profit and wasted a good month of your time in a pointless legal battle.
*peace,love and all that jazz* -Gary
hmmm, something tells me Playstation 3 will have a HUGE fan..
Products have kinks, sure. But releasing a games console that overheats is just negligence and disrespect for customers. They could easily have left one running a benchmark and figured out how hot it gets. In fact, I can't think of ANY way to believe they didn't know about this and the crashing, and the reduced product lifetime, and release it anyway because they care more about profits and the christmas kiddies' (read: future microsoft consumers) deadline.
People are so quick to blame Microsoft these days. I work in an automated warehouse which imports most of the consumer electrics in my country. And the guys who pack the merchandise aren't always very gentle, not to mention that a product can drop from the shelf from 8 meters and the package (usually) looks intact, so all you need is some worker who doesn't give a shit (and there are plenty of those everywhere, I tell you!) and just puts it back to the automation. And besides I think guys here are gentle here compared to postal service guys :)
So even if you didn't order the product by mail but bought it from the store, it still means it has had some rough trips earlier.
It is easy to put down anybody, but it takes some guts some intelligence, some courage to uplift people.
- Sri Sri Ravi Shankar
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
If you take responsibility for your own life, you don't blame anyone for "hyping" you up, or similarly. With a bit of introspection you see an honest mistake for a mistake and don't do it again. One mistake is natural, but we should strive to let it be a coin of lesson and not a pattern in our life.
Who can fix things when you blame someone else? You give away all your power to them. Only they can repair the imaginary "damage".
We are so quick to identify with the smaller situation we are in, forgetting the larger picture. Don't sell your smile so cheaply. Often we sell our smile for the slightest remark, or slightest loss. Instead, let it be the most precious thing you own, never selling your smile cheaply. Then you can go through anything with an adamant smile.
Then life can truly become Art of Living.
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
Please let Bill sleep in his own bed tonite! Please! Please!
No doubt he meant free *for those that need the legal help*.
;-)
"Judges, prosecutors, or cops" are not payed by neither the winning nor the losing party, after all. (And luckily so). They are paid by the state...so maybe lawyers should be too?
Maybe hat suggestion would come closer to what the parent poster had in mind, and *not* that everyone had to work for absolutely nothing.
Of course, I actually think he was just making a joke anyay.
Giving a bad opinion on a product isn't effective with only a few competitors.
I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
You go to a super market, buy a bag of 15 tomatoes, and tell me that you wont find 1 that is crapped out, or not eatable, or too raw.
Either live with $3 tomatoe bags with some flaws, or go to your organic farmer and pay $9 for a perfect bag, with him making $6 profit.
Compare the xbox to what you had retail in 1905 - you are damn lucky.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Humans give birth every day, and if the usa standard is 1/1000 failures, does that mean the human
was a failure in design? ok 1 in 30000 then....
If it fails, replace it, if the birth dies, you make another.... you dont try to reclone it/fix it.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Your case isn't as clear cut as you pretend. Which is also apparent by numerous class-action suits for similar issues.
Using another analogy, if you bought a car, and a day, while driving, later it rains and you put on your windowcleaners - but then they sudenly borke of. If you then check the manual, where it is said "windowcleaners should not be engaged if the car is driving above 50km/h"...are you then seriously suggesting no legal recourse is possible? Or even that no one would have the legal (let alone moral) right to sue?
I seriously doubt that.
Yet, according to your claimed reasoning it was 'in the manual', and the windowcleaners worked as specified (as long as you stay under 50km/h). Yet, I doubt any judge would side with the carmanufacturer in that case. why not? Because, as the parent poster already stated, there is a reasonal expectation about when and how a product should work, *regardless* of what they put in the manual.
That reasonable expectation is always a bit arbitrary and depends on the judge(s), which in turn usually base themselves on the usage of similar devices and the expectations *those* created, but it *is* something that is counted with.
When we invest time into an activity we expect a return from our developed skill. However, you're being pedantic and you know it. It is a common turn of phrase to suggest one "invests time into doing something". The point is only that it is time lost because the other side did not hold up their end of the bargain.
I'm not btw, arguing that suing is the right solution, I'm only suggesting that the grandparent's argument doesn't wash. I'd elaborate, but I don't care all that much.
PS: Don't make the absurd assumption that I'm talking about myself, I don't even own a tv set let alone a video game.
Wanted: Clever sig, top $ paid, all offers considered.
If you google the phrase "temperature of coffee", you'll find dozens upon dozens of sites (unrelated to the McDonald's case) recommending what temperature coffee should be brewed at. Here's one example: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/DianaGendler.s html. Here's a study on what temperature people prefer their coffee: http://ift.confex.com/ift/99annual/techprogram/abs tracts/3583.htm.
The range that McDonald's brewed its coffee at is right about at the range most people recommend, and only slightly hotter than the average temperature people prefer to drink it.
~ roscivs
Then we would have a system where only the rich could afford to sue and you would have absolutely no recourse if something bad happened. Not a good idea, we need to get away from the "I have more money and can afford more lawyers than you" situation that we are in today. Though I agree that this guy is just making a cash grab (microsoft is trying to replace defective units), people are getting sick of MS's promises only to be disapointed when the product ships. What we need is something to discourage lawyers from approaching people and talking them into filing frivolous lawsuits. How did ambulance chasing become on honorable endeavor for lawyers?
Interesting, you assert that MS could reduce the power consumption by smartening up the design. Could you perhaps explain how it is that you arrived at this conclusion? Could you please describe the research you did to determine the MS design is suboptimal and perhaps the steps you'd take to improve it?
As to reducing the polygon count, I don't happen to agree that is a viable option. It is an option, but MS needs to beat PS3 in the marketplace, and surely they don't feel that having a lower-performing console will do that for them.
As to it not crashing when overheating, I agree that would be ideal. Note that the console itself has a signal for overheating (it's very cryptic, two red lights on the front, but you can find it in the MS knowledge base). However, there are technical issues to detecting overheating. Basically, you need a temperature sensor in the place that the overheating happens. You cannot just have temperature sensors in every chip, it would mean having custom versions of every chip in the unit, which wouldn't be cost effective, for example you couldn't even use commodity RAM.
One place we seem to know they don't have a sensor that can report and let it put up an error message is in the power supply. I say this because some people (apparently) had the power supply (PS) overheat and the PS just turns off, turning off the 360 with it. That means you get no error message, which is puzzling. To have the PS indicate to the unit that it is overheating would have added additional cost to the unit, it's also mildly dangerous, if the PS is overheating, it is going to stay on so an error message can be displayed for 30 seconds? I'm not sure that's safe, I mean what if the PS is smouldering, and it says on for 30 more seconds and catches fire? Additionally, I'm not sure you can pass UL or other safety regs if it works that way. But perhaps this is possible, I think that neither you or I can say though that we have all the info to say that MS made the incorrect decision there. Heck, neither you nor I even know what percentage of the time this problem is occuring? You'd be able more able to justify a better temperature reporting system if 5,000 out of 1 million systems are reporting heat problems than if 5 out of 1 million are.
Also, having done electrical design myself, I can tell you it is likely not possible for MS to switch off the GPU completely. Removing power from the GPU means it will be backpowered by any signal lines to it that are not grounded. That will make the chip latch up and it won't fix itself until all the lines are lowered for a second or so and back up (generally that means turning the unit off). Adding the ability to ground all lines to the GPU takes extra design, and can be problematic in very high speed designs (which the 360 is). MS could probably halt the GPU to a low power state, which would reduce power consumption to less than 1% of peak.
Additionally to this, I think that it is likely that people are reporting just plain "busted unit" problems as heat problems, simply because the unit runs hot. Just because it crashes and it is hot doesn't mean it crashed due to heat. MS would know better here, and I'm sure the unit in question ended up in their hands for investigation. I note http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=169465&cid=141 24290 that my unit was running in a 116F box with exhaust temps of 140F and not even glitching, so there's plenty of temperature headroom on these things, if yours isn't defective.
Well, I have to say I have no way to be sure that PS3 will use as much power. But I would bet significant amounts of money on it. By "as much", I mean within 25%, for a rated of 160W, 120W typical. This would also be too hot to run in a typical unvented stereo enclosure. With an NVidia graphics chip in there, plus the Power PC, plus 8 coprocessors it's not going to be a cool device either. I mean, check the power usage ratings on current NVidia graphic
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
I understand if you think Xbox 1 is powerful enough. I also agree games aren't about graphics. But your idea of a not-improved console doesn't fit MS' business plan. MS wanted to produce a console with graphics head and shoulders above the rest. As I said, your suggestions make the console unsaleable, or at least not in the space MS aimed for.
Xbox 1 was hot, but it wasn't 110W (well, not typical). I'll put the Kill-A-Watt on my Xbox 1 tonight and tell you how much it takes. I do agree Xbox 1 was a bad design, from a hardware and cooling standpoint, for what that's worth.
As to PS3 having more connectors, and being hardware superior in general, I agree, I expect will be technically superior. It also will get hot too.
As to your comment about making sure if a part crashes at 80, make sure it doesn't reach 70: this shows AGAIN you have no idea what is going on. Let me explain again, if you put the 360 in an unvented stereo cabinet, it will hit 116F ambient (this was with the front cracked open). That means that there is no spot inside (since there is no compressor-based cooling system) in that box that is less than 116F ambient. And you talk of trying to keep spots below 70? Again, I'm sure MS did all they can to cool it, it really cools itself well. But if you put it in a box, it defeats the cooling system.
The PS2 does have good power usage. But note that the PS2 currently on sale (slimline) has an external power supply. And PS2s before that with the possible exception of the PS2+ (full-size, but no i.Link port on the front) used a lot more than 50W. I'll put my original PS2 on the Kill-A-Watt tonight too and see how it does, and I'll put my PS2+ on there (which I bought because it was quieter) on there too.
An internal power supply is convenient, but it actually is bad for cooling. It concentrates more heat in a smaller area. It however is more efficient, since running 20A at 12V across 3 foot of wire (like 360 does) is expensive and inefficient.
I still think you're mistaken about the PS3 power usage (and heat production). They may run the video chip slower whenever possible to keep heat and power useage down. That'd be great. But I don't think they'll limit the top speed, and the cooling system has to work at top speed. No one wants a console that can play only some games without crashing/overheating (if placed in a stereo cabinet).
As to your comments about the launch games sucking on 360. Launch games always suck, especially if the console makes its worldwide debut in your country (like PSP did, and the games SUCK). Note that PS1 and PS2 debuted in Japan months before the US, and so by the time it came to the US the games were better (although the PS2 games still largely stunk).
Just because the launch titles suck doens't mean made a bad design.
If the Xbox ran at 80% clockrate, it would only save about 30W (assuming video chip takes 80W, and you can reduce clock rate 20% and the voltage 20% and there is zero leakage current). I assure you 130W isnt much better than 160W. It will likely still overheat if placed in a closed space.
Anyway, most of your comments come to "I think older consoles are fast enough, so 360 doesn't need to be so fast." That's fine for you, stick with the current consoles, there's tons of great games on there. I don't think that one person's opinion that "we don't need that much performance" is necessarily means that the whole marketplace feels that way, and it doesn't mean that strategy would work in the face of fierce competition from PS3.
In summary, if your argument is "to me, the increase of heat isn't worth it for the additional power", you are expressing a personal opinion, one that you should act upon by not buying a 360. But leave other people to make that decision for themselves, okay?
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Look, your view of an improved console is not the same as MS' or Sony's. I totally respect that. But that doesn't mean that MS made a bad or faulty design. And it doesn't mean other people agree with you. I highly recommend you not buy a 360, it doesn't seem appropriate for you. But your arguments on this are good for those in your position only. Since HDTV resolution is 3-4X times that of regular TV, I personally am looking for more than "several times" faster equipment. It would take that just to tread water, graphics-wise at HDTV resolutions, and I (and MS) think improved graphics are a better idea than that.
As to you not being clear about cooling, you again, for the 3rd time just don't know what you are talking about in this area. If you put the unit in a box it will heat up far above normal temperatures. You can't ensure you have headroom if you can't control the cooling solution, and if the user puts the unit in a box, you can't control the cooling solution. Okay. Do you get it now? I also explained why you cannot always warn the user. I explained a few practical reasons why not and a legal/liability one. I finally took the time to explain that you have NO IDEA what the incidence of the problem is. If it happens 5 times out of a million, then MS shouldn't spend a single dime fixing it. If it happens 5,000, it's quite important. Until you know which it is, you should refrain from explaining how MS did a crappy job and you'd do better.
At room temperatures, heat doesn't produce significant changes in electrical resistance in copper, tin, etc. We're not talking about superconductors here. Also note that there is no evidence that more heat makes chips wear out quicker, at least not until you get to the catastrophic failure mode. Additionally, as a 360 owner, I can say that your comments about "robust operation" are pretty presumptive. You just have no idea if they are unreliable. Mine is reliable at at least 116F-140F. Frankly, that seems pretty good to me. So step off about your comments as to Xbox 360 would be more reliable if it ran cooler.
Finally, all those comments are AGAIN tangential. MS felt they needed a certain level of performance. That level of performance generates a certain amount of heat. Putting that much heat in a stereo cabinet doesn't work. So no matter how much you complain, you're not going to change the situation. It seems likely to me MS did about as well as reasonably could be done given the cost and design constraints.
And making it "a few percent" slower would only reduce the power consumption by a few percent. For example, look at an AMD A64. http://www.amdcompare.com/us-en/desktop/ Select 90nm from CMOS and A64 (regular) from processor. Also look at http://techreport.com/cpu/ for the voltage ratings.
A 90nm 4000+ runs at 2.4GHz and 1.4V and has a design power of 89W. A 3700+ runs at 2.2GHz and runs at 1.4V and has a design power of 89W. A 3200+ runs at 2.0GHz and 1.4V and has a design power of 67W (make sure to use socket 754 version, other suffers from reduced performance due to bad FSB).
Power is proportional to frequency and with the square of voltage. So, let's calculate. Performance is proportional to frequency.
So, a 3700+ is 91% as fast as a 4000+, and uses 91% as much power.
A 3200+ is 83% as fast and uses 83% as much power.
If a 3200 could run at 1.3V (not impossible, it would than take (1.3/1.4)^2*(2.0/2.4) as much power. That'd be 71% as much power.
In that case, I'd save as much as 20W (30%), but lose about 20% of my power. If you go by TDP ratings on AMD's site, it comes out to about the same (62W TDP versus 89W, for about 70% as much power, although these are rough numbers, AMD seems to class TDP ratings by what heatsink they use, not actual TDP). Anyway, how does this jive with your statement that it would use MUCH LESS than 80% of the power?
It just happens to be that personally, you don't find the tradeoffs
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
I play video games (time allowing) so I have nothing against them.
But if I play a game for 10 hours and have fun, having an unfixable bug at 11 hours doesn't render the first 10 hours fun. Sure, I will be disappointed that I can no continue to enjoy the game, but it doesn't nullify the previous enjoyment nor does it mean that the first 10 hours was wasted as the parent implied.
Sure it does, or can.
If you are returning the game because it's flakey, and, supposing all 360s are flakey, that is, it is a defect. Then you won't be able to continue playing that game from where you left off. You will have to start the same game over on a different system, assuming it's available.
Further, if the game is not available the knowledge you have gained from that game is not applicable to a different game, it is lost. You are making the assumption that the only thing you get from ten hours of gaming is ten hours of fun, but that's not true. You get ten hours of gaming fun plus ten hours of mixed experience divided between general skills and game-centric skills. If you are going to return the 360 for a different brand, or, all 360s are defective, then you cannot capitalize on the game centric skills, they are essentially useless. Think of them like a gift certificate that expires that you were told had no expiration date. You expect it to have value tommorow, but it may not. If the game did not have manufacturing defects, you would not have lost those skills.
You may say the skills have little value, but I don't think a one day late $10 minimum payment creates $25 dollars or more worth of damage for the credit card company either.
Wanted: Clever sig, top $ paid, all offers considered.
I just saw this on Fox 8 News in Cleveland Ohio. It's officially a large story. M$ is getting all sorts of free publicity for the 360. Shame it's mostly bad...