Yes, they were below the glidepath, and yes they blew the approach and had to go around: but this is hardly seconds from disaster or even a close thing. 600' at a normal approach speed is not "close" to the ground and 3.8 NM is more than 3 minutes at Vref which is certainly adequate time to respond.
There are several reasons why this is an important story:
- Yes, they were more than two minutes from touchdown, but that does not mean two minutes crashing: the descent rate determines that, and according to Flightaware, they were descending at 480ft/min. Which gives a little over a minute before crashing;
- They were way below the glideslope on a visual approach, and apparently not aware of it. It took ATC to warn them, with a little over a minute to spare; If anything would have blocked that radio transmission (another station, perhaps: remember Tenerife), they may even have hit the water;
- They were headed for the same runway as the Asiana flight, under the same conditions: ILS unavailable, but other aids still working (especially PAPIs). This simply shows that the crew lacks the experience to safely conduct an approach and landing under these circumstances.
In short, no, there is not. There is a problem with the airline putting inexperienced dumbasses in the left seat to save money.
That is the structural problem. A lot of pay2fly, inexperience crew and magenta addicts on the flight deck. It is no longer an incident, it is a structural issue. At least the FAA saw that and increased the minimum flight time from 250 to 1500. That's 1250 hours more stick and rudder before you get access to a flight deck (I hope).
To be further in tune with the facts here.... There are more approach aids than the ILS
Any of these *should* have been enough to safely land.
And that is the problem. Visual approaches are becoming increasingly difficult for the magenta addicted flight crew. If a heavy gets directions from ATC which will make their life very difficult, she (the pilot announcing the go-around was female) must have only one response: "unable".
The question is whether or not the probability of dieing is significantly higher when you are about to appear at a hacker converence to discuss the hacking of implanted medical devices.
Maybe he accidentally caused a kernel panic on his own pacemaker while he was preparing his slides??
I spend most of my life at sea these days. Unless it's really foggy, I can generally detect an anomalous course change by looking out the window. I'll bet airplane pilots in VFR conditions can do the same.
When I fly VFR, I don't need GPS, it just helps me avoid airspace that I should not be in. However, when it comes to IFR conditions, GPS is really helpful. Chasing the magenta line, as professional pilots call it (I'm just a low-life private pilot). When that Magenta line is off by 1 kilometer, that can become a serious issue. For example here in the Bay Area.
since some people say routers are moving towards Software defined Networks.
Yeah, insert buzzword here. Do you think the current networks are not defined by software? How do you think BGP works? Magical monkeys or a programmed algorithm?
That little sentence shows that you have no clue how the entire immigration system works.
The H1-B program is part of a larger immigration system, and that system is simply broken. The new proposals will only make it worse. Not because of the rules, but because of the numbers.
Today, the number of "new" H1-Bs is limited to 85000, where "new" means people who apply for an initial visa. This means that renewals are not included in the limitation. While the H1-B is theoretically limited to 6 years, there are exceptions to this which make it possible to renew the visa indefinitely in increments of 1 and 3 years.
A think it is no secret that 95% of the H1-B holders will seek permanent residence (green card), which they are allowed to as the H1-B is one of few visas which are "dual intent" (google it). And this is where the problem lies:
As the article stated, and is commonly known in the Bay Area, 50% of available H1-Bs will typically go to people from Indian origin. If you look at the statistics, this means a green-card application influx of an average of 40,000 per year since 2002. At the same time, the number of green cards are limited as well. The number of green cards which can be given to people of Indian origin is approx 265 per month per category (EB1, EB2 and EB3), about 9500 per year. So that's quite an oversubscription., leaving many Indian H1-Bs waiting 10+ years for the green card. 10+ years in which their spouses cannot work, and they have a lot of difficulties switching employers so they are pretty much locked in with their current boss. Would you give someone a raise in that situation?
No, assume that the new H1-Bs will be limited to 180,000. Can you imagine the wait for the folks from India?
Whether or not you like the H1-B program as it is, the current system is broken and hugely unfair for Indians on a humanitarian level.
I consistently drive 10 miles over the speed limit, which generally keeps me with the flow of traffic and you'll be ignored by the CHiPs. 15+ and you're risking it. 20+ and the law will be enforced.
I've had 1 ticket in the three years I've been in California, and on the highway I'm consistently over the speed limit as well. That one ticket was for 83 on I-280 and the cop even gave me a break as I was going well over 90 when I passed him. I guess it pays to be courteous and honest about it.
In fact, outside of rush hour it's just dangerous to go 65mph on the Bay Area as just about everyone will go 70+.
Cisco manufactures most of their stuff in China, with some production in other nations, not sure if US has any at all. I suspect its competitors are no better.
Well, I work for a Cisco competitor and have worked for other vendors in the past. Not all telecommunications equipment is manufactured in China. Mexico is a popular country to have line-cards assembled, for example.
yeah... he mistrust only really impacts foreign countries buying our products and services. Individual foreigners and companies will likely still happily take our money to sell us products and services.
Exactly. Remember the hype surrounding US companies buying Huawei equipment because of spy concerns? It seems to me that the roles are reversed now... The Chinese government has an excellent argument to ban US manufactured equipment from their networks and country.
In the city I'm at they don't even consider it a fine. They consider it a surcharge that you have to pay to the company that owns the red light camera's. The city probably gets a cut from it but you can't fight it in court because it's not a recognized fine under local or state laws. However if you don't pay the surcharge, they can still suspend your license because not paying the surcharge is recognized in the law. So you can go to court when they suspend your license during which proceedings (6 months for the next court date) you don't have a license (which in the US is practically a death sentence). You can then get your license back on a constitutional technicality (right to a speedy trial) but since the surcharge remains pending, every 12 months they'll re-suspend it.
You, sir, have chosen the wrong politicians. If this was my city, I'd campaign until they have been thrown out of office with tar and feathers.
You may have smelled smoke, but the headline is not necessarily true.
The Li-Ion batteries that have caused the Dreamliner so much trouble are in the lower front part of the plane, below the front doors.
The news pictures show a problem on the upper side near the tail section. If there was a fire, it could have been anything, an isolated incident not connected to the battery issue.
If these researchers want to take the wrong side in this fight, let them.
Why does everything always have to be a "them against us" when it comes to these types of debates. I am in no way affiliated to any government organization, and I definitely do not like government intrusion in my private life. However, government security is as much in my interest as in theirs. Afterall, if they do legally obtain some of my private information for whatever reason, I'd sleep a lot better knowing that at least it will be safe from some 12 year old Chinese hacker.
Or perhaps it will take an asteroid hurdling towards Earth for you to side with "the feds" and work together on a solution?
Let's get some facts straight here. I am not an elitist, nor a McCarthyist. However, I am very close to someone who was a very bad teen. He was sent to a rehabilitation camp when he was 17, and came out when he was 20. He is now an upstanding citizen with a college degree, steady job and a family.
Moral of the story: rather then instantly condemning someone to death, check to see whether or not there is potential in these youth.
And my Volt, which has the same performance as your Boxster does 250 MPG at half the price of your import. This VW is Volt with poor performance. Nothing to see here folks, move along.
Don't think so. I paid less than $10k for my 2000 Boxter. Your Volt is more expensive, and uglier as well. Ask any chick to choose between a ride in a Porsche convertible or a Dad's Chevy, and I'm sure I'll be the one with the blond next to me.
Moral of the story: all these electric cars are great, but not sexy. And only environmentally better if they run renewable energy, not electricity that came from a coal power plant.
P.S., I seriously doubt that your Volt has the same performance as my Porsche.
1.6l engine, 48hp, 1753 lbs sounds a lot like my 72 beetle that has a 1600cc engine 54hp and weighed 1800 lbs. Of course, it only gets 27mpg around town and about 32 on the highway, Besides, it's fun to drive by the school yards and watch the kids all punch each other in the arm and yell "Slug bug!"
You should see those kids if I drive by in my Porsche Boxter:)
Technology doesn't fix social problems, it changes them. Take away guns and people use knives. Take away knives and they use big rocks. And so on. It's the same with any technology, for any social behavior. You can't fix relationships with technology, and fundamentally, all social problems can be expressed in relational pairings.
That said, the better question is -- are we willing to allow the government to change its relationship with us, the citizens, and if so, what will be the new boundaries for such a change? There must be things that are in and out of bounds -- and there needs to be more discussion than is happening now. Otherwise, we're going to wakeup one day and find that we're all wearing the Emperor's clothes, not just with the government, but with each other as well!
when gang members are identified, eliminate them. Simple and fully effective. let their worthless parents cry about how they were turning their life around blah blah blah.
I don't think you fully understand the problems of gangs. In some neighborhoods, young kids almost have to join a gang in order not to become a victim. It is a matter of becoming a predator vs prey, and those youngsters don't always have the world view that adults have to distinguish right from wrong in that situation, and the potential impact on their future.
Equally effective and simple would be to isolate these folks by taking them out of that situation. Move them to some flyover state in the middle of nowhere, where they can be drilled in a youth detention center. Not as a punishment, but as a form of education.
While it would be unfair towards the parents who were unable to raise their kids, I'm sure they would prefer to have the state take care of them, rather than execute them. Not to mention the cost of the death penalty, or difficulties in proving gang affiliation.
If it was the older and more experienced pilot who screwed up and failed to note the dangerously low airspeed, pretty much any trainee pilot from any culture would've figured his trainer knew what he was doing. The Korean Ministry of Transportation has already stated that ultimate responsibility lay with Lee Jeong-Min, as he was the trainer on the flight.
As far as I know, there were four pilots on the flight deck. Each pilot, even a pre-solo student pilot, will know that speed + altitude = life. If you are flying at low speed at a low altitude, you're in danger. The PNF should have been monitoring airspeed, but the other pilots had a responsibility as well.
When I was a student pilot, I witnessed flight instructors mess up as well. On my second solo I almost crashed into another airplane with 1 CFI and 2 student pilots on board, when I had the right of way (I was in the pattern doing t&g's). Moral of the story: everyone on the flight deck has a responsibility. An accident is not a single event, it is a chain of events, and a multitude of people not paying attention. There is no single person to blame.
Political correctness has no place on the flight deck of an airliner. If the co-pilot due to cultural reasons does not dare to speak when his captain is about to crash the plane, it is posing a danger.
Racism is not the same as racial discrimination. Racial discrimination is where one values one human lower than another based on nothing more than race. The simple fact that some cultures have different values than others does not have anything to do with racism. And when a co-pilot does not dare to speak to his captain for cultural reasons, that fact is becoming a matter of great importance to understand, but more importantly, mitigate.
A flight crew is a flightcrew for a reason. If only one pilot was required, it was a lot easier. When there is a crew, someone must be in charge. However, even that someone in charge is making a mistake, he or she needs to be corrected. And if the person is not getting corrected due to cultural values, that has absolutely nothing to do with racism. It has to do with the lives of people boarding that aircraft, and the people on the ground. And even if for whatever reason you would think it still is racism, I would argue that saving lives has a higher priority.
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Yes, they were below the glidepath, and yes they blew the approach and had to go around: but this is hardly seconds from disaster or even a close thing. 600' at a normal approach speed is not "close" to the ground and 3.8 NM is more than 3 minutes at Vref which is certainly adequate time to respond.
There are several reasons why this is an important story:
- Yes, they were more than two minutes from touchdown, but that does not mean two minutes crashing: the descent rate determines that, and according to Flightaware, they were descending at 480ft/min. Which gives a little over a minute before crashing;
- They were way below the glideslope on a visual approach, and apparently not aware of it. It took ATC to warn them, with a little over a minute to spare; If anything would have blocked that radio transmission (another station, perhaps: remember Tenerife), they may even have hit the water;
- They were headed for the same runway as the Asiana flight, under the same conditions: ILS unavailable, but other aids still working (especially PAPIs). This simply shows that the crew lacks the experience to safely conduct an approach and landing under these circumstances.
In short, no, there is not. There is a problem with the airline putting inexperienced dumbasses in the left seat to save money.
That is the structural problem. A lot of pay2fly, inexperience crew and magenta addicts on the flight deck. It is no longer an incident, it is a structural issue. At least the FAA saw that and increased the minimum flight time from 250 to 1500. That's 1250 hours more stick and rudder before you get access to a flight deck (I hope).
To be further in tune with the facts here.... There are more approach aids than the ILS
Any of these *should* have been enough to safely land.
And that is the problem. Visual approaches are becoming increasingly difficult for the magenta addicted flight crew. If a heavy gets directions from ATC which will make their life very difficult, she (the pilot announcing the go-around was female) must have only one response: "unable".
Is there any backup for GPS or other information source in IFR conditions?
Yes, much actually. VOR/DME and ADF are radio based navigational aids. And then there is of course the simple compass.
It sure is a good thing that England controls the entire Internet and that no one anywhere will be able to publish this information now.
Yeah, next thing you know they'll be banning porn!
The question is whether or not the probability of dieing is significantly higher when you are about to appear at a hacker converence to discuss the hacking of implanted medical devices.
Maybe he accidentally caused a kernel panic on his own pacemaker while he was preparing his slides??
I spend most of my life at sea these days. Unless it's really foggy, I can generally detect an anomalous course change by looking out the window. I'll bet airplane pilots in VFR conditions can do the same.
When I fly VFR, I don't need GPS, it just helps me avoid airspace that I should not be in. However, when it comes to IFR conditions, GPS is really helpful. Chasing the magenta line, as professional pilots call it (I'm just a low-life private pilot). When that Magenta line is off by 1 kilometer, that can become a serious issue. For example here in the Bay Area.
since some people say routers are moving towards Software defined Networks.
Yeah, insert buzzword here. Do you think the current networks are not defined by software? How do you think BGP works? Magical monkeys or a programmed algorithm?
That's only true until they get their green card.
That little sentence shows that you have no clue how the entire immigration system works.
The H1-B program is part of a larger immigration system, and that system is simply broken. The new proposals will only make it worse. Not because of the rules, but because of the numbers.
Today, the number of "new" H1-Bs is limited to 85000, where "new" means people who apply for an initial visa. This means that renewals are not included in the limitation. While the H1-B is theoretically limited to 6 years, there are exceptions to this which make it possible to renew the visa indefinitely in increments of 1 and 3 years.
A think it is no secret that 95% of the H1-B holders will seek permanent residence (green card), which they are allowed to as the H1-B is one of few visas which are "dual intent" (google it). And this is where the problem lies:
As the article stated, and is commonly known in the Bay Area, 50% of available H1-Bs will typically go to people from Indian origin. If you look at the statistics, this means a green-card application influx of an average of 40,000 per year since 2002. At the same time, the number of green cards are limited as well. The number of green cards which can be given to people of Indian origin is approx 265 per month per category (EB1, EB2 and EB3), about 9500 per year. So that's quite an oversubscription., leaving many Indian H1-Bs waiting 10+ years for the green card. 10+ years in which their spouses cannot work, and they have a lot of difficulties switching employers so they are pretty much locked in with their current boss. Would you give someone a raise in that situation?
No, assume that the new H1-Bs will be limited to 180,000. Can you imagine the wait for the folks from India?
Whether or not you like the H1-B program as it is, the current system is broken and hugely unfair for Indians on a humanitarian level.
I consistently drive 10 miles over the speed limit, which generally keeps me with the flow of traffic and you'll be ignored by the CHiPs. 15+ and you're risking it. 20+ and the law will be enforced.
I've had 1 ticket in the three years I've been in California, and on the highway I'm consistently over the speed limit as well. That one ticket was for 83 on I-280 and the cop even gave me a break as I was going well over 90 when I passed him. I guess it pays to be courteous and honest about it.
In fact, outside of rush hour it's just dangerous to go 65mph on the Bay Area as just about everyone will go 70+.
My rule of thumb: no more than 15 over the limit.
Maybe if they could make a F-35 that absolutely positively won't asphyxiate you they would get more interest from pilots?
Maybe they could add some normal flight instruments so I could fly it with my PPL!
Cisco manufactures most of their stuff in China, with some production in other nations, not sure if US has any at all. I suspect its competitors are no better.
Well, I work for a Cisco competitor and have worked for other vendors in the past. Not all telecommunications equipment is manufactured in China. Mexico is a popular country to have line-cards assembled, for example.
yeah... he mistrust only really impacts foreign countries buying our products and services. Individual foreigners and companies will likely still happily take our money to sell us products and services.
Exactly. Remember the hype surrounding US companies buying Huawei equipment because of spy concerns? It seems to me that the roles are reversed now... The Chinese government has an excellent argument to ban US manufactured equipment from their networks and country.
Also, Windows for Workgroups 3.11 was the first truly good consumer level version of Windows.
I hope this does not mean that Linux is only 20 years behind Windows...
It is not. More people run Linux than ever, even if they don't really know it (think Android for example).
In the city I'm at they don't even consider it a fine. They consider it a surcharge that you have to pay to the company that owns the red light camera's. The city probably gets a cut from it but you can't fight it in court because it's not a recognized fine under local or state laws. However if you don't pay the surcharge, they can still suspend your license because not paying the surcharge is recognized in the law. So you can go to court when they suspend your license during which proceedings (6 months for the next court date) you don't have a license (which in the US is practically a death sentence). You can then get your license back on a constitutional technicality (right to a speedy trial) but since the surcharge remains pending, every 12 months they'll re-suspend it.
You, sir, have chosen the wrong politicians. If this was my city, I'd campaign until they have been thrown out of office with tar and feathers.
"Well, I was pretty sure I smelled smoke!"
You may have smelled smoke, but the headline is not necessarily true.
The Li-Ion batteries that have caused the Dreamliner so much trouble are in the lower front part of the plane, below the front doors.
The news pictures show a problem on the upper side near the tail section. If there was a fire, it could have been anything, an isolated incident not connected to the battery issue.
If these researchers want to take the wrong side in this fight, let them.
Why does everything always have to be a "them against us" when it comes to these types of debates. I am in no way affiliated to any government organization, and I definitely do not like government intrusion in my private life. However, government security is as much in my interest as in theirs. Afterall, if they do legally obtain some of my private information for whatever reason, I'd sleep a lot better knowing that at least it will be safe from some 12 year old Chinese hacker.
Or perhaps it will take an asteroid hurdling towards Earth for you to side with "the feds" and work together on a solution?
WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK ARE YOU THINKING?!
Let's get some facts straight here. I am not an elitist, nor a McCarthyist. However, I am very close to someone who was a very bad teen. He was sent to a rehabilitation camp when he was 17, and came out when he was 20. He is now an upstanding citizen with a college degree, steady job and a family.
Moral of the story: rather then instantly condemning someone to death, check to see whether or not there is potential in these youth.
And my Volt, which has the same performance as your Boxster does 250 MPG at half the price of your import. This VW is Volt with poor performance. Nothing to see here folks, move along.
Don't think so. I paid less than $10k for my 2000 Boxter. Your Volt is more expensive, and uglier as well. Ask any chick to choose between a ride in a Porsche convertible or a Dad's Chevy, and I'm sure I'll be the one with the blond next to me.
Moral of the story: all these electric cars are great, but not sexy. And only environmentally better if they run renewable energy, not electricity that came from a coal power plant.
P.S., I seriously doubt that your Volt has the same performance as my Porsche.
1.6l engine, 48hp, 1753 lbs sounds a lot like my 72 beetle that has a 1600cc engine 54hp and weighed 1800 lbs. Of course, it only gets 27mpg around town and about 32 on the highway, Besides, it's fun to drive by the school yards and watch the kids all punch each other in the arm and yell "Slug bug!"
You should see those kids if I drive by in my Porsche Boxter :)
I would abstain from the profanity used, but I think that banning internet cafes should be susceptible to a constitutional challenge.
Technology doesn't fix social problems, it changes them. Take away guns and people use knives. Take away knives and they use big rocks. And so on. It's the same with any technology, for any social behavior. You can't fix relationships with technology, and fundamentally, all social problems can be expressed in relational pairings.
That said, the better question is -- are we willing to allow the government to change its relationship with us, the citizens, and if so, what will be the new boundaries for such a change? There must be things that are in and out of bounds -- and there needs to be more discussion than is happening now. Otherwise, we're going to wakeup one day and find that we're all wearing the Emperor's clothes, not just with the government, but with each other as well!
Mod parent up!
when gang members are identified, eliminate them. Simple and fully effective. let their worthless parents cry about how they were turning their life around blah blah blah.
I don't think you fully understand the problems of gangs. In some neighborhoods, young kids almost have to join a gang in order not to become a victim. It is a matter of becoming a predator vs prey, and those youngsters don't always have the world view that adults have to distinguish right from wrong in that situation, and the potential impact on their future.
Equally effective and simple would be to isolate these folks by taking them out of that situation. Move them to some flyover state in the middle of nowhere, where they can be drilled in a youth detention center. Not as a punishment, but as a form of education.
While it would be unfair towards the parents who were unable to raise their kids, I'm sure they would prefer to have the state take care of them, rather than execute them. Not to mention the cost of the death penalty, or difficulties in proving gang affiliation.
If it was the older and more experienced pilot who screwed up and failed to note the dangerously low airspeed, pretty much any trainee pilot from any culture would've figured his trainer knew what he was doing. The Korean Ministry of Transportation has already stated that ultimate responsibility lay with Lee Jeong-Min, as he was the trainer on the flight.
As far as I know, there were four pilots on the flight deck. Each pilot, even a pre-solo student pilot, will know that speed + altitude = life. If you are flying at low speed at a low altitude, you're in danger. The PNF should have been monitoring airspeed, but the other pilots had a responsibility as well.
When I was a student pilot, I witnessed flight instructors mess up as well. On my second solo I almost crashed into another airplane with 1 CFI and 2 student pilots on board, when I had the right of way (I was in the pattern doing t&g's). Moral of the story: everyone on the flight deck has a responsibility. An accident is not a single event, it is a chain of events, and a multitude of people not paying attention. There is no single person to blame.
That's because you are racist.
Political correctness has no place on the flight deck of an airliner. If the co-pilot due to cultural reasons does not dare to speak when his captain is about to crash the plane, it is posing a danger.
Racism is not the same as racial discrimination. Racial discrimination is where one values one human lower than another based on nothing more than race. The simple fact that some cultures have different values than others does not have anything to do with racism. And when a co-pilot does not dare to speak to his captain for cultural reasons, that fact is becoming a matter of great importance to understand, but more importantly, mitigate.
A flight crew is a flightcrew for a reason. If only one pilot was required, it was a lot easier. When there is a crew, someone must be in charge. However, even that someone in charge is making a mistake, he or she needs to be corrected. And if the person is not getting corrected due to cultural values, that has absolutely nothing to do with racism. It has to do with the lives of people boarding that aircraft, and the people on the ground. And even if for whatever reason you would think it still is racism, I would argue that saving lives has a higher priority.