You're absolutely right - there's no doubt that we are Very Rare.
But on the other side of that coin, the entire Universe is Very Large - and the vast majority of it is completely unmapped / unexplored (from our perspective) to any reasonable degree.
I'd argue that our two "Very"s cancel each other out nicely.
The odds of us being fairly Unique? They're probably pretty high. But the odds of us being COMPLETELY Unique?...
And plus your argument of timing is very good. But I'd argue that the finding artifacts from a long-doomed alien civilization would be almost as tasty as finding the civilization itself.
Certainly if they were already gone, at least we wouldn't have to worry about forming (and maintaining!) good relations with them.
I never said they'd NEVER get out of it - but yes, it is a Chicken and Egg problem.
The day that the availability of pre-loaded Linux systems is the same as Windows boxes (and yes, I know there's a trend here) - The day that most consumer hardware has OFFICIAL support in Linux - The day that all software has OFFICIAL Linux versions - Linux will work just fine as a Desktop environment for the average user - even if the base software never improves from where it is right now.
But as it is, you're asking users to be too self-sufficient by giving the Linux.
Right now the people who run Linux are the people who cna handle running Linux on their own. The people who run Windows are the people who can't.
Seems about right to me.
Whether that's the way things SHOULD BE, or ALWAYS WILL BE aren't for me to say. Maybe in ten years Linux will be everywhere and Windows will be a bad memory. Who knows? I don't care which way things turn out.
EXACTLY. Windows comes preinstalled. So why do you compared preinstalled Windows with non-installed Linux?
What's your point?
People don't know Linux, so they don't choose Linux no matter how userfriendly or easy. And somehow it's Linux's fault that it isn't widely known?
We're back to my original point now. The reason I'm comparing preinstalled Windows to non-installed Linux is because 90% of the desktops out there right now have windows installed.
The act of switching over to Linux is difficult for the average user. There is no similar "switching over" to Windows.
And besides the install, once you get it all up and running - there's no more Tech Support safety net that average users NEED.
Have a DSL problem with Windows? Tech support will help you. Tell them you're running RedHat? You're on your own.
Same with hardward. Problems running it under Redhat? Not supported. You're on your own.
And how many average users install Windows themselves? (Those who can certainly aren't average users.)
Oh come on... When you buy a computer off the shelf, it comes pre-installed with Windows. No Installation necessary. If you bought any funny hardware, the techs at the shop better make damn sure it works before giving it to you.
And before you say it - YES - those same people could just as easily have ordered a computer pre-loaded with RedHat or whatever. But why should they? Why WOULD they?
In most cases, they read a flier for "COMPUTER SALE - $599" and they went in and asked for "That one".
If they were Geeky enough to even ask for RedHat - this argument becomes moot.
Well you just have bad luck. Linux have been working perfectly fine on all computers I installed it on.
OK, sure. I have bad luck. What then? If some new user tries the install, has bad luck (non-standard hardware, whatever), where does that leave him? Reading man pages.
That's all I'm saying.
Not everybody needs 100%. Have you ever considered that? Of Course you're right. The 90% install may very well be enough for a lot of people - as long as the last 10% isn't something you care about.
I'll give you a specific example. Running the latest Gentoo, could NOT getting networking to work to save my life. My network is DHCP enabled - Windows boxes detect it just fine, Knoppix detects it just fine, Linspire detected it just fine. But Gentoo? Forget it.
Looked high and low, tweaked, read man pages. Any n00b in my situation would've been left with the exact same prospect - debugging, tweaking, and reading man pages.
That is FAR BEYOND even the geekiest of us can reasonably expect a non-Geek to do.
You're dead on. I recently installed Debian for my 8 and 10 year old sisters because they had tinkered with their Windoze install and acquired so damn much malware that it was irreparably broken.
All these examples of "I, a knowledgable Geek, installed Linux for person XYZ and they can use it easily!" are all fine and dandy, but do nothing to dispell the degree-of-difficulty of Linux.
You're doing all the heavy-lifting for them. You're configuring the devices, you're setting up the shortcuts that make it easy.
Once you take all the "Ease of Use" know-how that you've got right now, inject it into the installation so that it requires NO Heavy Lifting from ANYONE - THEN you'll really have something.
They can! This is something you already can do with a preinstalled, preconfigured Linux system! In fact, my parents have been using Linux to browse the web for years. Honestly, have you ever tried?
Let me ask you this simple question - Did your parents do their research as to which preinstalled/preconfigured system was right for them?
Did they load it up themselves?
Did they get all their drivers and devices working themselves?
Do they maintain the box themsleves?
.... Or do you do all of that for them?
I'm willing to agree with you as far as this - once you've got a nice stable Linux box set up exactly the way you want it, it's trivial to use. It's trivial for ANYONE to use.
It's getting the box TO that point that STILL is difficult, and STILL requires geek-knowledge and man pages and whatnot.
Just in the past month I've tried the lastest of Gentoo, Linspire, and RedHat. NONE OF THEM worked 100% out of the box on my machine.
80%? Sure.
90%? Sure. But THAT is the problem. There's always the one little detail that won't work without knowledgable tweaking.
I stand by what I said - it's not reasonable to expect the average person to do their own tweaking. And it's ALSO not reasonable to expect the average person to hire a geek just to get their Linux box up and running 100%.
There is no denying that it's harder to use than Windows. Yes, getting widget X to work is just a matter of looking in the man page and finding the correct command and args - and hell, that may not even be hard for you or anyone else here. But it's still not something the average person will ever do.
Besides that, it's ignorant to EXPECT an average computer user to just accept the fact that they need to start learning nifty commands XYZ - why should they? Why WOULD they? Most of the slashdot crowd probably learned it because they wanted to. Linux was something they wanted to use, and they wanted to learn to use it well.
All the average user wants is to be able to send an email, or browse the web for porno, or whatever. LET THEM.
Different tools for different jobs. Use Linux if you want to be an uber-1337 power user. Use Windows if you just want to check your mail and surf porn.
Just like if you want to measure the height of a wall, all you need is a yardstick (Windows) - you don't need a damn laser-guided-super-gadget (Linux).
Sure, the super-gadget is arguably "better", but 99% of the people on earth don't need one, don't want one, and will never be inclined to learn to use one.
I hate to be the wet blanket, but think about it. If you make any kind of money at poker, you do so becasue you're consistantly winning against the other players well above average. And the law of averages says that you're probably winning somebody elses rent money.
So what? A winning player can only control the fact that he is winning - not who loses to him, or where the money comes from.
If some welfare idiot loses his last $25 desperately trying to win his house back? It was his choice to risk the $25 in order to turn it into more.
Nobody is forcing anyone to play beyond their means.
A couple months back I bought a couple DVDs from Future Shop - Yes, I payed for them - but the de-magnetizing thing didn't do its job.
Walked through the door - Alarms went off - but just for the hell of it I kept walking like I didn't notice (Yes, I DID pay for everything). Just one of those things where you want to see what happens.
Both sets of automatic doors still opened for me, I think I heard one clerk yell out "Sir! Sir!", and that's it.
Calmly walked through the parking lot, nobody followed me.
Even went back to the very same shop the very next day to pick up a PS2 game, and nobody said shit to me.
MS isn't saying they won't support Pirated versions - that implies that they're somehow changing their security scheme regarding service packs. They're NOT.
The installation hurdles that existed in SP1 will be back again for SP2 - no more, no less.
I've had a lazy eye since long before these things first became popular in the early late 80s/early90s.
All my friends kept telling me how cool they were, and I literally spent dozens of hours trying every stupid method. Putting it behind glass, buying special "helper glasses", etc...
There's some things in this world us lazy (eyed) people were never meant to experience.
A person shouldn't buy this "anonymous registration" service expecting that nobody will ever be able to track them down. There is nothing that you can do to keep the FBI (or whatever Law Enforcement Agency) from tracking you down.
Anyone who expects to be able to run a site with illegal content expecting complete anonymoty is a damn fool, and failed to read rules when buying the service. They state quite clearly that if you break the law while hiding behind them, they will fully co-operate with the Police and turn you over.
The reason a person would buy this is to keep every other random asshole out there from being able to do a quick WHOIS and grab their email / postal address / phone number.
when asked if the methane was biological in orign
on
Methane on Mars?
·
· Score: 1, Redundant
The Parent poster made an Insightful quip - pointing out that Microsoft's advancement will no doubt draw Linux-Zealots crying foul.
Despite the fact that first bunch of posts to this thread HAVE BEEN Linux-Zealots crying foul, the parent poster gets modded down.
See the problem, yet? The Knee-Jerkers choose to deny that there's ANYTHING wrong with the community, and will mod down anyone who hangs a lantern on a problem.
I love it. Moderated as FlameBait almost instantly, when if you look at the first five comments there's already the crying and whining he's pointing out.
Unfortunately no.
Up here, all CD Media are the same.
You could be a Multi-Million dollar company ordering CDRs in Bulk with the provable purpose of backing up your computers (or whatever), and you'd still have to pay the levy on each and every one of them.
Slashdot Mirror
You're absolutely right - there's no doubt that we are Very Rare.
...
But on the other side of that coin, the entire Universe is Very Large - and the vast majority of it is completely unmapped / unexplored (from our perspective) to any reasonable degree.
I'd argue that our two "Very"s cancel each other out nicely.
The odds of us being fairly Unique? They're probably pretty high. But the odds of us being COMPLETELY Unique?
And plus your argument of timing is very good. But I'd argue that the finding artifacts from a long-doomed alien civilization would be almost as tasty as finding the civilization itself.
Certainly if they were already gone, at least we wouldn't have to worry about forming (and maintaining!) good relations with them.
How frigging arrogant would we have to be to honestly believe that in the ENTIRE universe, we are COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY UNIQUE?
Come on, people... Seriously.
I never said they'd NEVER get out of it - but yes, it is a Chicken and Egg problem.
The day that the availability of pre-loaded Linux systems is the same as Windows boxes (and yes, I know there's a trend here) - The day that most consumer hardware has OFFICIAL support in Linux - The day that all software has OFFICIAL Linux versions - Linux will work just fine as a Desktop environment for the average user - even if the base software never improves from where it is right now.
But as it is, you're asking users to be too self-sufficient by giving the Linux.
Right now the people who run Linux are the people who cna handle running Linux on their own. The people who run Windows are the people who can't.
Seems about right to me.
Whether that's the way things SHOULD BE, or ALWAYS WILL BE aren't for me to say. Maybe in ten years Linux will be everywhere and Windows will be a bad memory. Who knows? I don't care which way things turn out.
So uhm... don't use Gentoo? You are not Gentoo's target audience. Isn't it only common sense to use a product that targets you?>
You really believe that n00bs are capable of wading through all the bullshit, and chosing the one distro that's right for them?
EXACTLY. Windows comes preinstalled. So why do you compared preinstalled Windows with non-installed Linux?
What's your point? People don't know Linux, so they don't choose Linux no matter how userfriendly or easy. And somehow it's Linux's fault that it isn't widely known?
We're back to my original point now. The reason I'm comparing preinstalled Windows to non-installed Linux is because 90% of the desktops out there right now have windows installed.
The act of switching over to Linux is difficult for the average user. There is no similar "switching over" to Windows.
And besides the install, once you get it all up and running - there's no more Tech Support safety net that average users NEED.
Have a DSL problem with Windows? Tech support will help you. Tell them you're running RedHat? You're on your own.
Same with hardward. Problems running it under Redhat? Not supported. You're on your own.
And how many average users install Windows themselves? (Those who can certainly aren't average users.)
Oh come on... When you buy a computer off the shelf, it comes pre-installed with Windows. No Installation necessary. If you bought any funny hardware, the techs at the shop better make damn sure it works before giving it to you.
And before you say it - YES - those same people could just as easily have ordered a computer pre-loaded with RedHat or whatever. But why should they? Why WOULD they?
In most cases, they read a flier for "COMPUTER SALE - $599" and they went in and asked for "That one".
If they were Geeky enough to even ask for RedHat - this argument becomes moot.
Well you just have bad luck. Linux have been working perfectly fine on all computers I installed it on.
OK, sure. I have bad luck. What then? If some new user tries the install, has bad luck (non-standard hardware, whatever), where does that leave him? Reading man pages.
That's all I'm saying.
Not everybody needs 100%. Have you ever considered that? Of Course you're right. The 90% install may very well be enough for a lot of people - as long as the last 10% isn't something you care about.
I'll give you a specific example. Running the latest Gentoo, could NOT getting networking to work to save my life. My network is DHCP enabled - Windows boxes detect it just fine, Knoppix detects it just fine, Linspire detected it just fine. But Gentoo? Forget it.
Looked high and low, tweaked, read man pages. Any n00b in my situation would've been left with the exact same prospect - debugging, tweaking, and reading man pages.
That is FAR BEYOND even the geekiest of us can reasonably expect a non-Geek to do.
You're dead on. I recently installed Debian for my 8 and 10 year old sisters because they had tinkered with their Windoze install and acquired so damn much malware that it was irreparably broken.
All these examples of "I, a knowledgable Geek, installed Linux for person XYZ and they can use it easily!" are all fine and dandy, but do nothing to dispell the degree-of-difficulty of Linux.
You're doing all the heavy-lifting for them. You're configuring the devices, you're setting up the shortcuts that make it easy.
Once you take all the "Ease of Use" know-how that you've got right now, inject it into the installation so that it requires NO Heavy Lifting from ANYONE - THEN you'll really have something.
They can! This is something you already can do with a preinstalled, preconfigured Linux system! In fact, my parents have been using Linux to browse the web for years. Honestly, have you ever tried?
Let me ask you this simple question - Did your parents do their research as to which preinstalled/preconfigured system was right for them?
Did they load it up themselves?
Did they get all their drivers and devices working themselves?
Do they maintain the box themsleves?
.... Or do you do all of that for them?
I'm willing to agree with you as far as this - once you've got a nice stable Linux box set up exactly the way you want it, it's trivial to use. It's trivial for ANYONE to use.
It's getting the box TO that point that STILL is difficult, and STILL requires geek-knowledge and man pages and whatnot.
Just in the past month I've tried the lastest of Gentoo, Linspire, and RedHat. NONE OF THEM worked 100% out of the box on my machine.
80%? Sure.
90%? Sure. But THAT is the problem. There's always the one little detail that won't work without knowledgable tweaking.
I stand by what I said - it's not reasonable to expect the average person to do their own tweaking. And it's ALSO not reasonable to expect the average person to hire a geek just to get their Linux box up and running 100%.
There is no denying that it's harder to use than Windows. Yes, getting widget X to work is just a matter of looking in the man page and finding the correct command and args - and hell, that may not even be hard for you or anyone else here. But it's still not something the average person will ever do.
.
Besides that, it's ignorant to EXPECT an average computer user to just accept the fact that they need to start learning nifty commands XYZ - why should they? Why WOULD they? Most of the slashdot crowd probably learned it because they wanted to. Linux was something they wanted to use, and they wanted to learn to use it well.
All the average user wants is to be able to send an email, or browse the web for porno, or whatever. LET THEM
Different tools for different jobs. Use Linux if you want to be an uber-1337 power user. Use Windows if you just want to check your mail and surf porn.
Just like if you want to measure the height of a wall, all you need is a yardstick (Windows) - you don't need a damn laser-guided-super-gadget (Linux).
Sure, the super-gadget is arguably "better", but 99% of the people on earth don't need one, don't want one, and will never be inclined to learn to use one.
Why is that such a bad thing?
.... AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....
Beautiful - hope this is the start of a trend.
I hate to be the wet blanket, but think about it. If you make any kind of money at poker, you do so becasue you're consistantly winning against the other players well above average. And the law of averages says that you're probably winning somebody elses rent money.
So what? A winning player can only control the fact that he is winning - not who loses to him, or where the money comes from.
If some welfare idiot loses his last $25 desperately trying to win his house back? It was his choice to risk the $25 in order to turn it into more.
Nobody is forcing anyone to play beyond their means.
A couple months back I bought a couple DVDs from Future Shop - Yes, I payed for them - but the de-magnetizing thing didn't do its job.
Walked through the door - Alarms went off - but just for the hell of it I kept walking like I didn't notice (Yes, I DID pay for everything). Just one of those things where you want to see what happens.
Both sets of automatic doors still opened for me, I think I heard one clerk yell out "Sir! Sir!", and that's it.
Calmly walked through the parking lot, nobody followed me.
Even went back to the very same shop the very next day to pick up a PS2 game, and nobody said shit to me.
MS isn't saying they won't support Pirated versions - that implies that they're somehow changing their security scheme regarding service packs. They're NOT.
The installation hurdles that existed in SP1 will be back again for SP2 - no more, no less.
Nothing has changed, Move along, Move along...
All you need to know about Canada : Less Handguns, More Beavers.
I was eating lunch when I read your comment - Honest to Jebus you made me laugh chili out of my nose.
You think Milk / Coke is painful? Wholly Crap.
Still totally worth it.
No dice, guy.
I've had a lazy eye since long before these things first became popular in the early late 80s/early90s.
All my friends kept telling me how cool they were, and I literally spent dozens of hours trying every stupid method. Putting it behind glass, buying special "helper glasses", etc...
There's some things in this world us lazy (eyed) people were never meant to experience.
YOU KNOW WHAT, THERE IS NO EASTER BUNNY! OVER THERE - THAT'S JUST A GUY IN A SUIT!!!
(Before modding me down as off-topic, consider for a second that you just don't "get it".)
You're missing the point.
A person shouldn't buy this "anonymous registration" service expecting that nobody will ever be able to track them down. There is nothing that you can do to keep the FBI (or whatever Law Enforcement Agency) from tracking you down.
Anyone who expects to be able to run a site with illegal content expecting complete anonymoty is a damn fool, and failed to read rules when buying the service. They state quite clearly that if you break the law while hiding behind them, they will fully co-operate with the Police and turn you over.
The reason a person would buy this is to keep every other random asshole out there from being able to do a quick WHOIS and grab their email / postal address / phone number.
"I think it is, myself personally"
It's GOLD Jerry, GOLD!
Here, I'll spell out the problem for you.
The Parent poster made an Insightful quip - pointing out that Microsoft's advancement will no doubt draw Linux-Zealots crying foul.
Despite the fact that first bunch of posts to this thread HAVE BEEN Linux-Zealots crying foul, the parent poster gets modded down.
See the problem, yet? The Knee-Jerkers choose to deny that there's ANYTHING wrong with the community, and will mod down anyone who hangs a lantern on a problem.
Get it yet, or should I use smaller words?
If I had mod-points, I'd use them here.
In the yeras I've been reading Slashdot, this is the first post that's ever moved me to use the stupid "Friend" button.
The ping-ponging moderation should be proof enough that there's a serious problem in the Slashdot/Linux community.
Of all the pro-Linux people - Half are knee-jerk zealots, and the other half are shaking their heads in disbelief.
Ignorantly spouting idiocy hurts your own damn cause, people. Ignoring this fact doesn't make it go away.
Go ahead and mod me down, I've got Karma to burn.
I love it. Moderated as FlameBait almost instantly, when if you look at the first five comments there's already the crying and whining he's pointing out.
It's called "+1 Insightful", Morons.
The MUI (Multi-Language User Interface) Pack has beena available for the US-English version of Windows for years.
Localized versions of Windows have been available for years as well.
Now they DARE to Localize Applications?! THOSE BASTARDS!!!
Unfortunately no. Up here, all CD Media are the same. You could be a Multi-Million dollar company ordering CDRs in Bulk with the provable purpose of backing up your computers (or whatever), and you'd still have to pay the levy on each and every one of them.