Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Plans to Create Local Language Software
zensufi writes "CNET News has a story stating that Microsoft has announced plans for a program to help governments produce local language versions of key Microsoft applications, giving the software giant a hedge against a growing international threat from open-source software." The piece explains: 'The Local Language Program will provide local and regional governments with "language interface packs" that government and academic developers can use to produce localized versions of the Windows XP operating system and Office 2003 productivity package.'
What antimonopolistic evil behaviour!
Actually customizing their products to different markets. UN FRICKIN BELIEVABLE.
Now throw yer tantrum kids.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Please, like it or not, MS is already light years ahead of OSS in terms of localization and supporting foreign languages. We've got a lot of catching up to do before we're even in the ballpark!
The NorCal local language pack will add the words hella and and shit in as many places as it can.
"Ah man, now I get it. The help files are hella easy to understand 'n shit. So if you wanna shut down, click the start button, and select Shut Down And Shit"
Meanwhile, the Southern Californian Localization will feature such items as "Shut Down - It's Just Called Shut Down"
language packs?
creating them now? i've already got one, it's called "Windows XP Multilingual User Interface" kit.
Heh.. that sounds liek them wantign the OSS kind of workforce without payign the price...
...pause... for 1000 nerds to think up devious MS policies :)
...the schmoe who has to translate all the stupid shit Clippy says into other languages.
Is being antimonopolistic a bad thing now? OH NO, LOWER PRICES ARE BAD mmkay?
I've got more mod points and GMail invi
Where can I get my hands on these development tools so that I can start on a ROT13 version of Office?
Vg nccrnef lbh ner gelvat gb glcr n yrggre. Jbhyq lbh yvxr zr gb uryc?
If my answers frighten you, stop asking scary questions.
I don't know exactly what this "hedge" is. Open-source software has been translated by locals for a long time already. It seems that something even more important to these locals would be the price and reliability of their machines. GNU/Linux might be the better system for them to run, given limited resources.
I have two eyes, I have two feet.
Well thats what happens when we tout diferent laguages as an opensource strength.
On the other hand, this kinda shows Microsoft could be getting worried about open source software.
Of course they already translate their products, but now what they are trying to do is make the governments do it instead, saving huge amount of money.
Countries like China have local regions which don't speak either Mandarin or Cantonese, yet these are most likely the only 2 Chinese languages that Microsoft localizes their products for.
Vonal Declosion
How Do you say General Protection Fault in swahili?
EEEEeeeeeeeeeee!!!!
ThunderBird. Nuff said.
You could have at least said "Premier commentaire!" to be on topic or something. These guys don't even try anymore.
Trolls dont like to be Flamebait, because they burn so well. Protect our Troll heritage!
So Microsoft is giving us the priviledge of letting us translate their products for them. For some reason I don't think this will work well commercial product. You paid for it, why should you work more? Obviously for open source, it's diffrent.
For $400 a pop you would have thought they could have done this themselves.
Help fight continental drift.
The MUI (Multi-Language User Interface) Pack has beena available for the US-English version of Windows for years.
Localized versions of Windows have been available for years as well.
Now they DARE to Localize Applications?! THOSE BASTARDS!!!
...Also, I didn't know Buggalo could fly.
Give them some credit where it is due. Microsoft has always pushed multi language support at every level long before OSS was a serious contender. All their OS API's support unicode, multi language versions of their OS's and many applications have been around a long time.
ala the old RedHat installer.
For doing this. Not all people speak English, and this just helps them to get their productivity up to speed.
I wonder if somewhere down the line MS will turn around and lock up users into only opening files made under a certain language something a-la DVD "scheme" (yea dual use term that word scheme). So user Wong in China creates files in China to send to his brother Ming in America. Will user Wong also have to buy an addon somewhere in the future?
MoFscker
The Israeli government chose OpenOffice.org?
It's funny how they always use their "innovation" to support the idea of closed source software. However, it seems like all the stories I see nowadays is how they're scrambling to catch up to what open source software has been doing for years.
Microsoft didn't even want to support Icelandic,
in spite of the government wanting to fund the
whole project.
Now, with Linux supporting all sorts of weird
stuff like Welsh and a zillion Indian languages,
Microsoft is losing out in places. All those
little annoying-to-support markets add up.
So, what license is to be used for these translations, written by third parties? Will Microsoft try and demand ownership, or at least commandeer a right to unlimited use of the translation?
If it is legally possible, it would be a really interesting experiment to write a translation and release it under the GPL, then sit back and watch the reaction.
...is is a free upgrade?
there's no place like ~
This sounds to me like they're just outsourcing the task of translating their software to different languages to other small countries that wouldn't make it financially worth it for microsoft to do it.
Microsoft has announced plans for a program to help governments produce local language versions of key Microsoft applications
Shouldn't that be the other way around? Why should governments be doing Microsoft's work? If Microsoft wants to sell in upper Mongolia, it ought to make the effort to localize its own damn software for that market.
If you ask me, this is just one more example of Microsoft's incredible hubris.
I'm in China and I've never seen a non-pirate version of any piece of software, including on computers of reputable companies. Not only is there no respect for copyright, there is no understanding of the concept. The increase in profit will not be that great because everyone will use the new localised software... but in pirate copies with no money going to MS... but I guess that's ok if you rate it by convenience to humanity.
There is nothing monopolistic about making your product available to as many people/organizations/governments that you can.
Where I come from... we call this competition! You know, where different organizations tailor their products to a given market and duke it out to see who succeeds.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
Unfortunately MS fails to realize that simple translation may not be enough. Take Office v.X on the Mac for example. It's lack of full RTL and Unicode support means some languages can't be supported, even if just the interface is translated. Rubi for Japanese is another language feature that may require access to the source code itself. Not to mention other tasks like modifying their English grammar checker to support new languages...
Merely providing the ability to make a "Language Pack" and translate the strings on the screen does not provide enough access to really support foreign languages. Without full access to the source code, foreign languages will still remain second class citizens
ed
Dialectizer Wizard
Please choose a language...
( ) Elmer Fudd
( ) Redneck
( ) Jive
( ) Cockey
( ) Sweedish Chef (my favorite)
( ) Moron
( ) Pig Latin
( ) Hacker
(BTW, this is from The Dialectizer site - Microsoft currently blocks them - no sense of humor)
I think what they intend to do is lick some govt ass and trick them into using localized language software and what happens eventually is that the govt files an anti-trust kind lawsuit againt MS! that would be nice.
Lord of the Binges.
Funny that it took so long for MS to realize they'd been had... I remember a friend of mine translating KDE documentation in french about 4 years ago... Not to mention the fact that asian fonts have been almost constantly present under linux, as far as I can remember. Besides, China already has Dragon Linux, and they wouldn't switch back to windows for anything else than a nuclear war threat... and even then it'd be a tough challenge! So guess what: that's not going to make a difference in the long run. MS has lost the initiative, and they're trying to make believe they still have it... I hope we can prove they're behind the Opensource community, and have been ever since linux came to being!
---- I am certain of only one thing : I know nothing else.
So one wonders what kind of antiquated practices MS is using that requires a 'special' program to allow localization. Could it be that perhaps MS is not competing against OSS, but is continuing it's fight against best software engineering practices. [And I know that many at MS know how to write code. I have their books. OTOH, we see many cases where corporate and monopoly market interests contraindicate best practices.]
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
When Alpha was struggling, MS helped kill it by porting only part of its portfolio, and making difficult for other people to port theirs.
Now, MS WXP and MS Office... what about countless other apps? And is it as easy for ISVs to translate theirs? Then, can they ship a binary with multilanguage built in as in POSIX systems?
And even if people could translate all that mass of software, will they do proprietary software vendors' work? Perhaps for MS Office and WXP, but I doubt for anything else.
In the end, we still have an edge here. MS actually progressed just a little.
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
Yes, very witty PARENT ... however, it really goes to show how Open Source has really rocked the industry (especially Microsoft),
I think this will be the first of a whole series of changes, which should be good for everyone who doesn't depend of closed IP.
pantalla azul de la muerte!
e.
Build Your Own PVR/HTPC news, reviews, &
there is sky and people and stuff if you get outside a bit more, even if its only for munchies at the 24hr store
The Amiga did this over a decade ago with it's "locale" settings. Anybody could produce a localised translation of application menus etc. In fact there are hundreds of such "locale" settings on aminet.
Their language packs wouldn't be complete without these languages/alphabets:
- Ebonics
- Pig latin
- Esperanto
- Elvish
- Klingon
- Linear B
I guarantee you Microsoft won't support any of these. But the open source community is certainly not above it, and will surely be the only recourse for anyone needing to localize software in those languages. And I'm sure there's more I haven't named here.
why does localization in .NET suck so hard? compared to how Java handles internationalization (not perfect by the way), the support in .NET feels weak. In fact the project I'm on now has completely foregone internationalization because it isn't sufficient. Instead, there's development teams in other countries, who localize it for other languages. Often, they end up rewriting most of the application. Internationalization is hard and isn't simple, but having a good framework isn't just supporting Unicode. Supporting Unicode is the minimum requirement.
I read an account in 1999(?) detailing how the government of Iceland wrote to M$ about when they expected to develop packages to run the OS in Icelandic. M$ replied "Well, hmm, never". Not enough by itself, but I just remember that this was the straw that broke the camel's back for me.
...when the market speaks, even BeelzeBill listens.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Yeah I mean really, does everything they do translate into a cynical prediction?
So this is a lot like the Qt Linguist, right? Only Qt Linguist is here already, open source, and good for any Qt/KDE application.
Once again, Microsoft at the forefront...
The Local Language Program will provide local and regional governments with "language interface packs"
Yep, and they will seamlessly be installed at no extra cost by a worm.
These are the pains one feels when writing software using a beta version language.
Got Code?
The BSOD. It's universal.
PO files in Debian for each language
http://www.debian.org/international/l10n/po/
crap by any outher name would still smell as sweet
sad when company is too lazy to support it's own products, eh?
How many new buffer overflows will all these previously fixed-length strings introduce? A zillion?
What a strange bird is the pelican, his beak can hold more than his belly can.
[ ] I AGREE.
[ ]I DO NOT AGREE.
Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
Microsoft has just admitted that they need to catch up with open source.
What about languages that don't have direct translations for key words like "security hole", "patch", "bug", "unstable" and "hotfix"?
"Now we can help Microsoft to translate their software at no extra charge!"
That's their notion of free software community. The community doing their job for free.
While we argue and sue each other over dinosaur mascots...
While we debate Open Source versus Free Software versus GPL versus LGPL...
Microsoft is adding more features to their products...
What percentage of the desktop does MS own now? 90%? 95%?
Wonder why? I don't.
We could always stop majoring on the minors and make better software... but's that just me.
Agile Artisans
Their hungarian warts?
Yay! now we can get the:
pantalla azul de la muerte
(Blue Screen of Death - Spanish from the fish)
For a while now, they've actually been producing local-language software, in a desultory and half-assed way, specifically in response to (usually much better) local-language free software. See, for ex., http://www.kyfieithu.co.uk/item.php?lg=en&item_id= 79 for Welsh, Nynorsk (the *other* Norwegian), and Catalan.
The first thing that comes to mind is this story that MS refused to support Hebrew for Mac Office. There's some theory that they can't do that due to political reasons (trying not to piss of another group of customers, though pissing off Israel people in the mean time). If this program applies to Mac products as well Israel people can make their own version, though I don't see why they would want to support MS if they are treated so poorly.
Actually you're confusing the spoken language with the written language.
Most computer program uses the written language rather than the spoken language. After all, how often do you ran a program that had a southern accent...
But there are two versions of written Chinese-- they're called traditional and simplified. The latter was created in the middle of last century.
Unlike spoken Chinese, you don't have the numerous dialects to deal with. So it is a reasonable thing for Microsoft and RedHat to target just these two versions of written Chinese.
-cmh
Microsoft is far ahead of open source projects in terms of language support in products BUT...
There is usually a version in your local language.
Microsoft Windows China version compleate with anti-Chinese slurs.
One of the first things local governments do with open source is translate the error messages and directions into something the staff can understand.
American companys are legendary for exporting crap. They don't even begin to understand local sensibilitys and insult or piss off everyone.
Microsoft is known for ignoring the sensabilitys of people INSIDE THE UNITED STATES and end up insulting or pissing off anyone who dosen't use Microsofts products and a larg part of the people that do.
American trampling of local culture plus Microsofts apathy twords anything not directly related to Microsoft culture equals an unholy nightmare in the error messages, system prompts, docs and anything else any Windows user has to deal with on a daily basis.
American:
Hit Ctrl+Alt+Del to log in
Vogon:
Punch the guy next to you to urinate on the system
Annother example: "All your base are belonging to us"
It sounds like the bad guy is saying "We captured all your military instalations" or something like that.
Now would YOU want to deal with "All your base" every freaking time you logged in?
And that presumming you didn't bumble into a cultrally significant notion.
Picture a Vogon pushing Control then Alt then Del.. not all at once but in sequence as if Control, Alt and Del were each letters to a word.
(Did I mention Vogons are stupid?)
Purely becouse of the context...
Microsoft is offering to let local governments to do the translations instead of doing it themselfs to address cultrally significant issues in the way things are put.
Open Source projects automatcly do this becouse the translations are handled by locals.
On the other hand....
Yes most Open source projects don't support more than one language for lack of someone in a diffrent locality than the project leader.
I don't actually exist.
But here we have a company with over $60 billion in the bank, pulling in more than $1 billion per month in pure profits, raking in unheard of profit margins on their products, and they are asking local and regional governments to provide them with gratis localization services.
Shameful.
-- My choice of computing platform is a symbol of my individuality and belief in personal freedom.
Bill's viewpoint is that other companies exist to write the stuff Ms doesn't want too...if they get too big [or too popular] it's their "responsibility" to sell out to MS...for the greater good of cheap stuff!
i mean, i remember getting windows updates when i was running win95 boxes and having about a gazillion language packs as "recommended updates" available for download...
01100111 01100101 01110100 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110100 00100000 01101101 01101111 01110010 01100101 00101110
Might follow the Microsoft "Open Source" model.
Imagine how much harder physics would be if electrons had feelings! -Feynman, maybe
Even knows what hungarian warts are.
That went right over your head, didn't it?
The Local Language Program will provide local and regional governments with "language interface packs" ...
....
Oh, so it's only "governments" that rate, hmm?
No help for the Esperanto community, I guess.
Though it wouldn't surprise me to find Microsoft courting the Klingon-speaking community
-kgj
-kgj
did anyone(i'm assuming you're ranting at a comment poster as your message is attached to one) mention monopolies? the first poster was simply trolling, of course it's competition, it's a move to counter the competition microsoft are seeing from the Linux i18n teams who are rallying round to serve up a free desktop in the most peculiar form of script you could imagine.
Software Freedom Day!.
Is this MS saying "We're sick of all your complaints about incorrect rtranslations, so we're going to let you do your own translations, so we don't have to pay these translators any more."
MSS: Microsoft Support, how can I help you?
Non-US User: Hi, there are three buttons on this dialogue box I'm getting which translate to "Next", "Yes" and "Ok". How do I know which one to press?
MSS: I'm sorry, we don't support foreign language issues. Please call your local technical support and talk to your translation team.
Politas
you make a very persuasive arguement
Giant software company with history of flipping off its customers gets on the stick when bottom line threatened.
I said this four years ago. MS only, _only_ reacts to financial threats. Not legal threats, not constitutional threats, not appeals to higher ethics. They're cash whores trapped in a mature business model.
For what it's worth, I also said you kids won't believe how dirty they'll fight to win this (not that they can win), but I'll let you find out for yourselves.
Nobody listens; I'm just a little mac-y user without a modded case and a fashionable blog.
meh.
A.C.
They'll love this back in Soviet Russia
Microsoft is doing this to compete with Linux. Since there aren't any decent grammar checkers for Linux, they are not going to worry about it.
I've been following the Welsh translations of KDE (odd hobby, I know), and they've been discussing these "Language Interface Packs". Apparently, installing them converts Windows into that language, yes. But that doesn't mean that one user can use Welsh (or French or German) and another individual use English (or German or French). So, you're locked into ONE LANGUAGE PER WORKSTATION. Other projects (like KDE) allow users to switch languages back and forth.
There's an article (in English) on their website.
Years ago I sold a package called Win/V that allowed you to run native Japanese applications on Windows for Workgroups. This was significant since there was never a Japanese WfW but the Japanese users wanted the networking features.
What made Win/V different is that it didn't just modify the interface to support a different language as the MultiLingual Packs do, but added the underlying code that localized versions of applications need. This way you could run the Japanese version of Excel for example and get all the local features like rubi and Japanese dates but still be running on an English version of the OS. Embassies loved this system as the underlying OS and network would be supported from the home country.
Macs have had this for years with their Language Kits and I don't think Windows has ever matched it. What happens if you try to install Japanese Office 2K on English XP?
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
when spyware edits these language files it will be awesome for the platform.
[ABORT],[RETRY],[FAIL], [GOOD DEAL ON XYZ]
[Unable to Reach %s host, perhaps the viruses are the cause, click here for the solution]
members are seeing something, your seeing an ad
If I had mod-points, I'd use them here.
In the yeras I've been reading Slashdot, this is the first post that's ever moved me to use the stupid "Friend" button.
The ping-ponging moderation should be proof enough that there's a serious problem in the Slashdot/Linux community.
Of all the pro-Linux people - Half are knee-jerk zealots, and the other half are shaking their heads in disbelief.
Ignorantly spouting idiocy hurts your own damn cause, people. Ignoring this fact doesn't make it go away.
Go ahead and mod me down, I've got Karma to burn.
...Also, I didn't know Buggalo could fly.
m$ really knows how to sell simple (and already established) solutions as innovative, simple because their products did neglect such needs till now. the l18n issue is soooo damn old, and everyone knows that it takes such a little effort to implement (it's mostly about externalizing strings from your source and managin' formatting objects in a centre place, like dates). it's nothing what i couldn't do with my eclpise in 5 minutes. but the average business person will still think that m$ did invent the whole thing. (which they didn't, btw)
Hey...another round of ameri-bashing. Actually, a lot of companies export crap. First off, they might just start out making crap, so they can't help but export it. Secondly, they just might not be clueful enough to make things un-offensive. But in no way are these things exclusively american. I've been getting crap from outside the US for a long time...But I don't bash every company in a given country just because one is bad.
Wait, what am I doing. You can't even spell and some of your sentences don't even make sense.
I think this is great for MS, great for the world, and great for linux, because without Linux, this would NEVER HAVE EVEN HAPPENED.
Who is this Anonymous Coward character, how does he post so much, and why is he always such a whore?
thats technically 3 words isnt it?
You consider strategically allocating funds for translations to languages that have the largest userbase to maximise their returns to be shameful? Remind me not to hire you as CEO.
Localization costs money and at some point a line has to be drawn. At least this move gives someone with the open source spirit to step in to fill the gap.
Here's what I've heard on the street, and I could be highly inaccurate, but here it is anyway:
Some weeks ago, CNet came out with an article on localization, using Rwanda as an example.
Within a day or two, Microsoft had reps in that country, and offered the government all the MS software it wanted at $2 (US equiv) a CD. Also, resellers would get a sweet deal, to either increase profits there, or lower the cost of computers.
So, news of providing hooks to make locally localized versions seems natural. Microsoft isn't stupid, and it isn't sleeping either. These are decidedly tactical moves.
You can look at it this way, also: Competition between Linux and MSoft is resulting in a boon to poor countries: much cheaper software.
Sounds to me like they are just trying to outsource some work. Nothing comes from MS with no strings attached :)
Can I still hate Microsoft, regardless?
With all their billions in the bank, why can't they just pay for the translations? I can't believe that a government would spend resources doing translation work for Microsoft.
Of course, M$ is going to try to get away with not having to pay for it. But I doubt governments (and of course just those of relatively low-population countries) will want to assist funding for them, seeing as how they have such a huge war chest.
I feel confident that gov's will prefer to fund translation on Linux, and M$ will be forced to pay for the their own translation anyway, if they want to get into the market.
Cheers, Michael From sunny Toronto
DichDaq pa' taH tlhIngan?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The story is a dupe, the topic is boring, the facts weren't checked. WE GET IT!!
CNET News has a story stating that Microsoft has announced plans for a program to help governments produce local language versions of key Microsoft applications, giving the software giant a hedge against a growing international threat from open-source software.
With a pair of Chinese and Japanese software companies developing a version of Linux for the Asian market I'm sure that M$ can already see their potential market shrinking. I'm also pretty sure that many at M$ are worried about the desktop deal that Sun has struck with China. So M$ tries to counter these moves with a language pack? I'm sure that M$ is going to have to try a lot harder than that!
Free Firefox news reader.
Everyone uses the same set of written character in China. The difference between traditional and simplified character is not really that big. The analogue is traditional always write the words in long form (like photograph, information, see you) and the simplfied is always in short form (like photo, info, cu)... Mandarin, Cantonese etc etc are just dialects.
Come back to something more onto the topic... The localisation work in the OSS world still have quite a long way to go... In many cases, the localisations conflicts with the rest of the program... For example, if I set locale as Big5 (Traditional Chinese font), I can read the name of the songs in Chinese, but the English words simply appears as blanks....
Wait a minute. You didn't say "anti-competative". You didn't say "monopolistic". You said "antimonopolistic". Huh.
Wow. You're right. Microsoft competing in a market by delivering features to match their competition. The Microsoftie/trolls must be foaming at the mouth; this isn't proper behavior for Microsoft at all.
Heres a picture of their first product...o rd.jpg
http://www.rhps.org/stuff/microsoft_w
Microsoft on Tuesday announced plans for a program to help governments produce local language versions of key applications, giving the software giant a hedge against a growing international threat from open-source software.
The Local Language Program will provide local and regional governments with "language interface packs" that government and academic developers can use to produce localized versions of the Windows XP operating system and Office 2003 productivity package, according to a Microsoft statement.
As previously reported, Microsoft is facing a growing challenge from overseas adoption of open-source software, which can be adapted to local languages as long as there are a few developers willing to invest the time and effort to do so. OpenOffice, an open-source alternative to Microsoft's Office, is currently available in more than 30 languages, with projects for twice as many more under way. Office 2003, by comparison, is available in 34 languages.
Microsoft has responded to open-source challenges overseas on a case-by-case basis, with efforts such as programs to provide Thai and Malaysian consumers with a $40 package that combines stripped-down localized versions of Windows and Office.
The new Local Language Program will allow the company to take a more comprehensive approach to addressing international needs. The company expects the program to double the number of languages supported by major Microsoft products, including support for Ethiopia's Amharic tongue and the Ukranian language.
"Empowering communities and individuals around the world to reach their full potential is a top priority for Microsoft," said Maggie Wilderotter, senior vice president of business strategy for Microsoft. "Through the Local Language Program, we hope to provide opportunities to people of all regions, locales and languages and enable them to realize that potential."
Government customers have turned into one of Microsoft's most troublesome markets, with bodies ranging from the German city of Munich to a coalition of Asian national governments going with plans over the past year that favor open-source competitors.
Good ol' OSS community.
Every version of Windows since Windows 3.0 supported modification of string resources in the binary. With a resource editor (free from MS) you could add string tables for a code page (language), and it would be utilized if you selected that language in the control panel.
Yes, as you have discovered .Net makes heavy use of the "Facade" pattern - providing just enough functionality to make you think you have a real platform, until you try something more complex than a static page with static form fields.
Just like you need IIS installed to make outward SSH connections, or the event model flames out just when you need it most, so too does the localization support falter if you try to make use of it - for who needs localization? At least for now.
Don't worry though, Longhorn should have it licked.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Umm, you have to either ship a seperate language DLL for that, or you have to ship a new exe (depending on whether the string tables were in it or the dll). A localized version.
And it's not as easy as "changing some string table entries in the exe". Some language families use fixed-with fonts for english, making it very hard to make sure your dialogs, etc. are sized properly in that language.
You also have to worry about "unsupported" characters in some language versions when you're using anything that's not unicode (CString anyone?). Certain characters (like some Japanese chars) have 0 value first bytes for wide characters. This fucks all kinds of stuff up.
Sure, you can change the text of the language - but single-byte ASCII apps will NEVER run properly on multi-byte versions of the OS unless the language you use is single-byte. EFIGS only, and only certain fonts and sizes. So what's the point? Perhaps this is something _better_ than that shit. Windows NT based systems are all unicode internally, and AFAIK all the stuff that an NT build consists of is unicode. Translations are a lot easier.
The copper bosses killed you, Joe. 'I never died', said he.
> Can I still hate Microsoft, regardless?
Yes, in more languages than ever before.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
rest will be pirated !!
I believe that phrase summons Cthulhu
As a user who has to deal every day with importing 1.23 in an excel sheet which expects 1,23, I can tell you we have a long way to go. How about checking the 100 most used apps and make a list of all items on the menu(s)? Remove doubles and synonims. Build it into a GUI toolkit so menu points can appear in a local language without extra effort from the coders... Something you can do NOW: when transforming floats into strings (clipboard, CSV) use the format "000000E+00". No decimal separator, imports correctly into every spreadsheed on the fucking planet!!!
10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then
Umm, you have to either ship a seperate language DLL for that, or you have to ship a new exe (depending on whether the string tables were in it or the dll). A localized version.
No, you don't. Win16 resources supported multiple string tables within the binary, one for each supported code page. One binary can support multiple localizations, with the Control Panel configuration specifying the default code-page for the application. The app could use the API to format dates and times. Many of the important localization tools debuted in Windows 3.1.
You're right about the dialog sizes. Dialog metrics have always been a problem, even for plain old ASCII apps.
In Win16, nothing was Unicode - they used code pages (an IBM standard I think), which did support multi-byte characters.
You also have to worry about "unsupported" characters in some language versions when you're using anything that's not unicode (CString anyone?).
CString has supported Unicode and other multi-byte sets since MFC 3.0 - when NT 3.1 was released. When was that - 1994?
I feel Microsoft finally got their act together for locale support with NT - an OS that was natively Unicode, and then with Office 2000, which properly supports Unicode. As for the defense of Win16 -- I was just rebutting the assertion that string tables are something new for Windows. They're not.
It sounds incredible to me that Microsoft actually tries to get governments to translate their software for them free, while Open Source localization groups are desperate with getting governments to participate or provide even little funding.
Perhaps we would need to organize better?
For some time, I've been trying to find out if there exists a collective effort for localizing open source software, which covers both all softwares and all locales.
Currently, we seem to have two types of localization efforts: software-specific and national efforts. For example, the major OSS softwares, such as KDE, Gnome, and OpenOffice have organized translation efforts. Then there are some national efforts. For example, in Finland, we have organized a joint national effort as a working group, which gathers the different Finnish localization teams together and aims to provide them publicity, recruiting, funding, other resources, and generally a channel for cooperation. We currently have KDE, Gnome, OpenOffice, Debian, and some other translation teams working together on common issues such as quality, vocabulary, and tools. I have noticed that there exists also some other national or language-specific efforts, such as for Arabic and South-African languages. However, I haven't found any cooperation effort between these national efforts, where we could participate.
So, what I'm looking for is a universal effort that covers both all the different localization projects for different softwares, and for the different languages (or nationalities). There exists some more-or-less generic efforts, such as the Translation Project, but those which I've seen cover only a limited set of software products (TP covers some 100 but it's still rather limited).
If you know about such an universal cover effort, please tell me.
Otherwise, perhaps the time is ripe for starting to plan for such an effort. I'm not talking about any massive organization, just a loose, light-weight organization that would serve as a center for information sharing and cooperation. Well, basicly a well-structured web portal would suffice.
I begun to wonder about this last fall, when I started designing a portal-based information system for the Finnish national localization effort and did preliminary organization analysis. I noticed that many of the tools we would need would also be useful for others. Well, of course it may be difficult to unify such tools between different efforts, as different efforts have their own preferences, but it would be nice to get to know what other efforts need and what they could contribute.
Our Finnish national effort is still slowly forming, but we are quite active in certain areas such as quality assurance. We have had one joint workshop event so far and have planned to have one twice a year (next one is scheduled for May). Last year, we produced a 26 page report about the status of different Finnish localization projects. We have also tried to make contacts with translation departments of universities. Our effort for getting funding is still in infancy.
We would very much like to share "patterns" of organizing national and software-specific efforts and serving the actual translation teams.
So, is there anyone interested in world domination?
...for years
Windows is only $500 if your time is worthless.
Click... "Luser! What are you doing running this unsecure, bug-ridden, monopolistic M$ piece of crap? Click Debian to install a real OS, click Suse to install another real OS."
File|Save... "Your document has been moderated as troll. Click OK if you think Bill Gates is evil, or pay $699 to Darl."
Click... "Luser! What are you doing running this unsecure, bug-ridden, monopolistic M$ piece of crap? Update by MSVCRT.DLL: yeah it's dupe!"
Click... "In Soviet Russia the computer localizes you!"
Run... "Missing beowulf cluster. A beowulf cluster could not be found, you're not a nerd! Access denied."
Now throw yer tantrum kids.
Tantrum? I'm delighted. In order to protect their monopoly on all fronts they are spreading their resources thinner and thinner in order to combat the various threats from competitors, open Source and open standards (for instance Linux, Open Office/Star Office, Java, XML, Mobile platforms) This means loss of focus, low quality, delayed releases. And hopefully their downfall.
Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die
It's I18n and L10n, because there are 18 letters between the I and the N in Internationalization and 10 letters between the L and the N in Localization. There is no such thing as L18n.
Also, what you're talking about has got nothing to do with localization itself, it's an issue of incomplete internationalization (i.e. the underlying support for localization) within the OS.
Brilliance. The King will not die.
BabelCode Project investigates a new methodology of controlled translation and makes it available for practical use.
http://www.babelcode.org
Having said that, it's certainly a start. I think we will see Microsoft, and other proprietary software vendors, forced to provide localisation in the future, to compete with Open-Source software which enables this.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
What with them having argued so strenously (in USia and EUia) that these are "an integral part of the OS". Let's see how that assertion pans out in practice.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Suddenly the cultural connection between D'ohl McBride and Microsoft snaps into focus!
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
We used the local language support fact to persuade our government to use Open Source. Now, Microsoft feel the heat and tried to pursue the same path as ours!
Shame to them! They are really a cheap imitator. ;)
Me - Fedora, Mandrake, Nano and Abiword translator
The current localization efforts are so lame. I want my language skins. Please...
Jacek Artymiak
freelance consultant and writer
master of many a page
What antimonopolistic evil behaviour!
Actually customizing their products to different markets. UN FRICKIN BELIEVABLE.
Now throw yer tantrum kids.
Actually it is likely a smokescreen. Microsoft has long touted their localization efforts while in reality avoiding numerous locales even when they have lots of customers in those locales. In the case of Hebrew, they declared there would never be Hebrew language versions of their software even though the Israeli government offered to pay for the development and ultimately even to supply the developers if that is what it took. Microsoft said NO.
Now they are claiming they will work with local governments in localizing MS Software? I will believe it when I see it.
As usual, MS is not acting without self interest. The fact is that the closed source business model cannot profitably cover all concieveable niches. This gives open source hidey holes to grow in.
...one word misspelt in the whole post, and he goes and puts it in italics so all the sarcastic pedants notice. Silly boy. ;-)
What happens if you try to install Japanese Office 2K on English XP?
It works, assuming you have a font. Not surprising, since I was able to type Chinese and Japanese on the same Windows machine back when Linux had trouble with the concept of a character more than 1 byte long (much of it still does, and yes, I have used KDE in Japanese).
I also remember discovering MacOS Language Kits. Compared to just installing relevant fonts on Windows and being ready to go, it did _not_ impress. Thank the lord OSX FINALLY understands Unicode (mostly).
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
I hate really hate the attitude of Micro$oft:
a Dutch translation of the Macintosh version of Office was deemed uneconomical.
So a lot of dutch-speaking Belgians and Dutch people were (and are) reluctant to buy a Macintosh because the only application they need (...under pressure of peers...) is not in their native tongue.
This in turn dampens the sales of Office vX in Benelux.
And now they feel the heat of the community, they 'appear' to solve the problem, but i guess they will only allow translation of Wintel products.
After all these years there is still no English version of Windows or Office.
Office has an English dictionary option but the application itself is in American (U.S. English). This is the nearest a Microsoft application comes to English.
60 million speakers of English in the UK and no local translation! We still have to put up with "favorites" and "color", while even the few Welsh speakers get their own version!
Crazy!
MS-Windows and MS-Office are still MS' only two cash cows. MS' high market share is the result of choices made by hardware manufacturers, which make up 90% of Windows sales and 68% of Word and Excel sales. Unlike MS-Windows which gets 90% of its sales from OEMs, only 68% of MS-Office sales come from OEMs, presumably leaving 32% who buy it separately. This 32% has a choice, at least in theory. Hardware sales have been flat for a while and if the U.S. does more outsourcing or tips into a full depression, then it will be flat for a while longer. There is the risk for MS - market choice and flat hardware sales.
If you look back at the 1980's and 1990's there where many options for productivity packages, even in different languages. These have all been crushed through various monkey business. For example, Quattro and Lotus 1-2-3 weakened after MS-Excel and MS-Word started being bundled together, though at the time both Quattro and 1-2-3 appear to have been much better products. So the choice since then whether you buy a different version depends on which versions you can read. Which in turn has pretty much limited which version of files you write ... until recently.
OpenOffice.org not only has an open, well-documented file format, but also runs on multiple platforms and has full support for many languages. All of which means less work over time, which means lower cost over time, both of which are highly attractive to both businesses and public agencies.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
!Microsoft! EEEEeeeeee!
...and he grinned, like a fox eating shit out of a wire brush.
Why do strings have to be embedded in the executable ? our company's projects (defense apps) all have the following requirement: all text must be in external files, so as that by changing the file, a new language is supported.
But programming languages do not support this functionality, it has to be done by hand. It is a shame.
If such technology was available, Microsoft wouldn't have to provide 'language support' for its products. A local code shop would provide the translation files without access to the source code, a job that could easily be done in a very short amount of time.
I prefer the term "Person of pre-Columbian American Ancestry".
So I am 100% Native American (I was born in New Jersey; you can't get more Native American than that), but only 1/64th Person of pre-Columbian American Ancestry.
Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
Even the die-hard Windows fanatics should be grateful that Linux is around to give Microsoft a big kick and wake it up out of its non-competitive slumber.
They will benefit, and we won't even charge them - Microsoft will!
I am anarch of all I survey.
So the job of translating Office to Indian languages will be outsourced to India!
Who would have thought of it!
Certain characters (like some Japanese chars) have 0 value first bytes for wide characters.
That is just nonsense. I am aware of no character in any widely used character set that has a zero byte for the first byte of a multi-byte character - except for Unicode's first 256 entries, which contain... English!
In Shift_JIS, the character set used by Japanese Windows, a null byte will never occur anywhere in a multi-byte character. You can use it perfectly safely in C without any special handling whatsoever.
IMPORTANT R3AD CAERFULY THIS AND-US3R LIECNSE AGREMANT (AULA) IS A LEGAL AGREMANT BTWEN U (EITH3R AN INDIVIDUAL PARSON OR A SNGLA LEGAL ANTITY WHO WIL B REFERED 2 IN THIS EULA AS U AND TEH LIECNSOR FOR DA MICROSOFT R TECHNOLOGY TAHT DISPLAYS THIS 3ULA INCLUDNG ANY ASOCIAETD MEDIA PRINTAD M8RIALS AND 3LECTRONIC DOCUMENTATION DA SOFTWAER)!11!!!1 OMG WTF DA R ALSO INCLUDAS ANY R UPDAETS AD-ON COMPONANTS W3B SERVIECS AND/OR SUPLEMANTS TAHT TEH LIECNSOR MAY PROVIED 2 U OR MAEK AVALEABL3 2 U AFT3R TEH DAET U OBTANE UR INITIAL COPY OF TEH R 2 DA AXT3NT TAHT SUCH IETMS R NOT ACOMPANEID BY A SEPARAET LIECNS3 AGREM3NT OR T3RMS OF USE1!!! OMG BY INSTALNG COPYNG DOWNLOADNG ACESNG OR OTHARWIES USNG DA SOFTWAER U AGRE 2 B BOUND BY DA TARMS OF THIS 3ULA!!!!1 LOL IF U DO NOT AGRE 2 TEH T3RMS OF THIS 3ULA DO NOT INSTAL AC3S OR US3 DA SOFTWAER111!!! FOR PURPOS3S OF THIS EULA DA TERM LIECNSOR R3FERS 2 MICROSOFT CORPORATION EXCAPT IN TEH 3V3NT TAHT U ACQUIERD DA R AS A COMPON3NT OF A MICROSOFT R PRODUCT ORIGINALY LIECNS3D FROM DA MANUFACTURER OF UR COMPUTER SYSTEM OR COMPUT3R SYST3M COMPONENT THEN LIECNSOR OR RAFERS 2 SUCH R MANUFACTUR3R1!!111!1 BY INSTALNG COPYNG DOWNLOADNG ACESNG OR OTHARWIES USNG DA SOFTWAER U AGRE 2 B BOUND BY DA T3RMS OF THIS EULA!1111!1 OMG LOL IF U DO NOT AGRE 2 DA TERMS OF THIS AULA LIECNSOR IS UNWILNG 2 LIECNSE DA SOFTWAER!11!1 OMG WTF LOL IN SUCH 3VANT U MAY NOT INSTAL COPY DOWNLOAD OR OTHERWIES US3 TEH SOFTWAER111!!! OMG
---- Take the Space Quiz!
Like:
File > Save = File > Store on disk before application crashes
Exactly how many people consider Esperanto their native language? Seriously... what is your point, and why is it modded 'insightful'?
My point is whoring for karma.
Why the 'insightful' mod? I have no idea -- my intention was to whore for 'funny'.
-kgj
-kgj
Though it wouldn't surprise me to find Microsoft courting the Klingon-speaking community .... more like ferengi....
...
Good point.
For that matter, Microsoft would sell out to the Borg -- "because it's an efficient business model"
-kgj
-kgj
Here's the BBC's take on it:
Buses stop at a bus station
Trains stop at a train station
On my desk there's a workstation....
If so, it must be humongous.
If not, it is incomplete.
Who needs all of these error messages, anyway?
An 8-bit exit code should be enough for anybody.
Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
So how do you say:
"This application has performed an illegal operation..." in Icelandic?
#|
Microsoft only does work on their products if it is commercially viable. In the past making their products available in different languages of which sales were likely to be small made it not viable (don't forget they'll have to hire translators who can do simple development).
But if a rival product gets established in that market it could likely take over, this is what they're worried about, so the potential losses in business make it commercially viable to create this translation tool. However there's a big difference between having an open-source app which is ready to run and having to spend hours translating software.
So if I understand this article correctly, when the technology grows enough, you could attach this to someone and question them, and you might get what they're really thinking. It could go beyond lie detecting, and actually pull out the truth (or what that person thinks is the truth).
--
Luck is just skill you didn't know you had.
Uhm, right. So it takes a threat from open source to get them to do something that they most likely would have done a long time ago if they weren't a monoploly.
Sorry I don't see your point.
The Register On Windows, Nynorsk, Sami and Catalan: ... First ask yourself if they teach Catalunyan in school, see if the government in Madrid approves of a Catalunyan version of the software (or would it be common-sense just to keep ALL offices Castillian and not create issues between versions), and then see if M$ would make money out of it. Basque is another thing altogether... :| (as well as Galician, Andaluzian etc...)"
Paul Taylor writes "So why Nynorsk, and not Catalan? Little chance of the Catalans getting their own language in Office... it's not a matter of economics, it's a matter of politics. Nynorsk is an "evolution" of Norwegian as far as I know, and M$ can hide behind the "Bright Shield of Progress" and getting some merit from the overall hack community. Catalunyan is really a political matter. Solved only with Madrid's approval
Oscar del Pozo Triscon, Softcatala writes I've read your poignantly funny (article about Microsoft Office in Nynorsk. I couldn't help laughing out loud while reading the last paragraph, a sort of call to arms to us Catalans. Well, I'm happy to report you that we have been fighting to have a powerful, honestly-priced Office suite in our language, and we have succeeded indeed. Softcatala, a not-for-profit organisation that localises free software into Catalan and advocates its use (and to which I obviously belong), localised OpenOffice 1.0 to Catalan a few months ago in cooperation with Sun Microsystems, and recently distributed 70,000 CDs with it through a Catalan newspaper. As a result, the Education Department of the Catalan Government is looking very closely to OpenOffice to replace Microsoft Office in all schools throughout the country. So, surprise, surprise, despite all previous arguments and PR rubbish, Microsoft have promised the Catalan Government a localised version of Microsoft Office this year. Of course, we all know how strongly committed Microsoft Corporation is when it comes to minority languages. So we will keep releasing Catalan versions of free software, just to prevent their very strong moral fibre to be tested by the absence of competition. By the way, we'll be glad to give technical assistance to other organisations looking to translate OpenOffice or other free software to a "non-profitable language". OpenOffice.org catalan version
Miquel Strubell writes Dear Drew, Within 24 hours of your article "Windows comes to Nynorsk" being posted on the Internet, it received coverage in Catalonia. Thank you for raising the issue once again. Microsoft translated 1.0 versions of Windows 95 and 98, which they then failed to update. These versions were not introduced into their catalogue and were extremely hard to find in the PC corner shop. They also signed a third agreement with the Catalan government, this time without an exorbitant invoice attached to it, to produce a Catalan version of Windows XP. What they didn't say was that the vesion translated would be the network format, so it turns out out that the home user has been cheated! Nynorsk has achieved a version of Office, an area where Microsoft have entrenched themselves in refusing to produce a Catalan version. Good for Nynorsk speakers! More and more Catalans are turning to alternatives such as open code products, which www.softcatala.org distribute free of charge.
BBC:Boycott threat
In both instances, Microsoft pointed to the large cost of translating computer programs.
But the Norwegians had an ace up their sleeve.
The main organisation working for the Nynorsk language got most of Norway's high schools to threaten to boycott all Microsoft software if they didn't come up with a New Norwegian version of Office.
Many more users of minority languages will no doubt be inspired to fight a renewed battle for their
-= If you fight Dragons long enough, you will become a Dragon =-
"In the case of Hebrew, they declared there would never be Hebrew language versions of their software even though the Israeli government offered to pay for the development and ultimately even to supply the developers if that is what it took. Microsoft said NO."
In some of the better software products, you can just take the messages file and translate it yourself, without any need to request that the vendor enables that feature for you.
"Free Software", I think they call it. Hey, you even get freedom of language thrown in...
Somehow I think someone with the open source spirit would prefer using open source to translating the OS he or she probably hates very much.
When will they get an elvish or klingon desktop? C'mon, we're lagging behind KDE here...
I can't see why the Huron, Iroquis, Apache etc. would want to associate themselves with some long dead European (Spanish IIRC) explorer - Amerique Vespuci [sic] - spelling weren't never my forty - grammer nether...
why not just call them Huron, Apache etc., they called themselves that long before old Vespuci was even a twinkle in his GRANDFATHER'S eye..
Kind of reminds me of that Monty Python skit about a game show called "Predjudic" (told you I can't spell) where people had to think up derogitory terms for various nationalities, and when the Belgium came up, one viewer wrote in "Let's just call them Belgians"
That's why I always check "Native American" on those race survey questions. "I was born in America, so naturally I'm a Native American."
If they get bitchy about it, ask them if they're Anti-Semitic. That usually shuts them up.
I'd tell you, but Slashfaggot doesn't allow any non-patriotic characters. Remember, citizen: if you use anything other than 7-bit ASCII, the terrorists have already won!
There is nothing monopolistic about making your product available to as many people/organizations/governments that you can.
Even if you do it at a net loss to your company?
You could call that "generating goodwill" and I'm sure there will be people calling it just that. Company shareholders will tolerate some goodwill as long as they can be convinced it translates into the bottom line at some point. OTOH, I could take a fair hit of ill-will as a company as long as I was making billions of dollars per year in profits, so goodwill is only so valuable.
But having been through the school of TANSTAAFL I would be suspicious of a profit-making entity just giving something away. They don't do it without a well thought-out profit-minded reason.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Who needs all of these error messages, anyway?
You misread what he wrote. He didn't say error messages, he said messages. Quite different really.
On the other hand, I'm fairly sure you're a troll.
you can choose from:
Bork, bork, bork!
Elmer Fudd
Hacker
Klingon
Pig Latin
i'm sure it beats the hell out of microsoft.
Live your life each day as if it was your last.
Until you get more than 255 possible errors! Duh!
Er...wait. I guess that would be a bad thing, wouldn't it?
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
===--===
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
...I'm just wondering when they're going to openly admit that to themselves and the public.
For years I've been wondering why Microsoft doesn't join the corporate fray of OSS, on the way mixing it with their branding and doing a branding variant of the 'embrace and extend' thing they're into. After all, nobody gave a damn about licensing until MS started ranting about the GPL being anti-american and at the same time screwing up their licensing as to piss everybody off.
Anyway, I've narrowed in on some optinal answers to this question:
1) MS is to big, slow and stupid and the chiefs are to Windows-focused that they don't see the light.
--I don't think this is the real truth. It fits into a typical MS rant and would fit to a megacorporation the size of MS, but considering that they actually are a software company, and a quite succesfull one I think this answer is to simple.
2) MS couldn't care less. Even if they only hopp on in 2 years from now when they've milked the last proprietary cow, they'll just throw in a few billion, by the one or other Linux company, mix in a little DirectX and Exchange for Linux and squish RH, SuSE and Madrake along the way.
--This seems more likely. But then again, if that's their plan, they would have started this much earlier. And I dont think they could gain foothold any more, neither now or 2 years from now.
3) The MS revenue stream relys so much on markting hype and exclusive Windows branding that MS has no other choice than to take up the fight, even if they're going to lose in the end anyway. They'd rather shoot themselves than admit that OSS has them by the balls and start an ordered retreat out of the proprietary software market in the long run. Taking every money they can get on the way and pushing forth into embedded and home entertainment systems.
--I would think this to be the best answer. Yet even this way it's a dead end for MS as a monopoly. No way in hell can they stand up to a Sony & Matsushita tag team who've just decided to use Linux as their prime embeded system for home entertainment - because it's cheaper and has less lock-in.
Either way you put it, MS as the master-blaster-of-all-things-Computer is done with. They'll either manage to get the curve into a major service and embeded vendor and strengthen their strong branding in that area or they're going to end up like Commodore or something simular.
My 2 Eurocents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Here is My comment about winXP UI apeared in local newspaper
2 004/3/16/itfeature/7484361&sec=itfeature
http://star-techcentral.com/tech/story.asp?file=/
-- Hasbullah bin Pit (sebol)
Bjork Bjork photographer *high kick* Bjork Bjork
Dear friend,
...
I am in need of urgant assistance and advice. My name is David Fault, son of the great millitary and computer hacker leader General Protection Fault.
Music is everybody's possession.
It's only publishers who think that people own it.
Fuck Beta
~John Lenno
Exactly how many people consider Esperanto their native language?
There are a few native Esperanto speakers. The exact number is not known, but is believed to be somewhere between 200 and 2000. They are referred to within the Esperanto community as denaskuloj, a word that doesn't translate simply into English. It means roughly "people who from birth", with the fact that it is referring to speaking Esperanto being implied. I've personally met two of them. They are all multilingual at a very early age.
Fucking awesome, d0od. Way to point out that groupthink.
I read Slashdot comments for the humor.
GO AHEAD! BUY 1,000,000 X BOXES mod them for loonix, and PUT MICROSOFT OUT of Business!
I got the impression M$ are making it easier for other people to customise M$ software for other languages. Bit lame if M$ isn't going to do the translations itself.
GrimRC
There is nothing monopolistic about making your product available to as many people/organizations/governments that you can.
Sure there is, especially if you control all the main distribution channels (i.e. OEMs).
Fred
"A fool and his freedom are soon parted"
-RMS
So you get the tools to translate a software that you must pay for? C'mon, what m$ will do next, ship a windows version without icons and you must create the icons for them to sell you it back?
End result - anyone who wanted to program here in Quebec wanted to do so in english. Oh, well ...
But will there be an ebonics version?!
Homer and Krusty look like clones because it was supposed to be a Groening in-joke about Bart not respecting his dad but idolizing Krusty... I can't say I get it, but that's what they tell me :)
If they die quickly, it will hurt the economy. If they go down slow, with other solutions from other companies picking up the slack all the way down, it might be better for everyone.
Qualitas edurus commercium, nullus penitus net rimor, nullus deus beneficium
Heh. Ever notice that most of the big names in open source (and computer science for that matter) don't seem to particularly hate Microsoft?
That kind of stuff is reserved for tools who feel some need to prove that they "belong" to the open source community.
I don't know why some people are hostile to this. The articles are a bit skewed, but think of it in this way: Microsoft is providing a toolkit to modify their applications to do what the user wants them to do (in a limited case that applies to the one scenario that's a pain point now). How is that different than open source on a limited bases. If I spoke Romansh for example and wanted Linux in my language, I could do it. I get a copy of Linux, and translate it. Now I can do the same with Windows. Create an interface pack that people can use to make their English application Romansh for example. And this can open the door for more customization in the future. I see this as a good thing.
I prefer "First Immigrants".
Nothing less would get Microsoft off their collective butts for such a small market. Iceland became something of a "martyr" to corporate indifference, so Microsoft was forced to localise for PR reasons (KDE has long had Icelandic). Linux and KDE (and probably GNOME, I don't normally use it) have long been fully or partially localised for much smaller "markets", so Microsoft is very much chasing the tail-lights here.
This is another reason for our dear friends, the convicted monopolists, to be hell-bent on stamping out all competition. Their competitors make them look bad in the same way sunlight shows up stains. The problems were there all along, but now they're obvious.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
There is nothing monopolistic about making your product available to as many people/organizations/governments that you can.
Actually, there is. Section 2 of the Sherman Antitrust Act states that "every person who shall... attempt to monopolize... any part of the trade or commerce... shall be deemed guilty of a felony." In the 1945 antitrust case United States v. Aluminum Company of America (ALCOA), Judge Learned Hand judged that "It was not inevitable that it (ALCOA) should always anticipate increases in the demand for ingot and be prepared to supply them. Nothing compelled it to keep doubling and redoubling its capacity before others entered the field. It insists that it never excluded competitors; but we can think of no more effective exclusion than progressively to embrace each new opportunity as it opened, and to face every newcomer with new capacity already geared into a great organization, having the advantage of experience, trade connections and the elite of personnel."
Perhaps you meant to say that there's nothing wrong with what Microsoft is doing.
That was supposed to be a joke, a take-off on "640K should be enough for anybody", attributed to Bill Gates (although he denies it).
(For anyone who doesn't know, POSIX exit codes range from 0 to 255 (excluding termination by signal).)
In fact, the whole post was supposed to be mildly amusing.
I don't see how 61000 messages (error or otherwise) could be reasonably documented, especially when i18n is considered.
OTOH, I think that 61000 messages is a horribly large number of messages.
60000 would be my limit.
Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
The problem with that is that I am not an immigrant at all; my ancestors were.
Also, I believe that there were three waves of pre-Columbian immigrations, according to paleontologists (four if you include the Vikings).
So you would have to use "Descendants of First, Second, or Third (and/or maybe Fourth) Wave of Immigrants" to be accurate.
Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
I don't see how 61000 messages (error or otherwise) could be reasonably documented, especially when i18n is considered
Some of these messages are documentation themselves, like "mouseover tips" explaining (translated) options.
Yes, yes, IHBT'ed and I'm H(ing)AND thanks.
the secret password is DONGZZZZ
please make a note of it.
Thanks for the info.
Well, that's very different, then.
Never mind.
Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana