Sorry, but this is not even remotely a fair comparision--a CD (in mint condition) from fifteen years ago holds roughly the same perceived value as a CD just released, whereas a computer of the same age doesn't even come close (as you quite accurately showed).
Admittedly, people who do a lot of file trading/etc. now tend to think that CDs in general are not worth as much--but that was not your argument. With cost balanced by inflation, CDs have probably come down somewhat in price (I don't have the actual inflation rates in the US for the last fifteen years, and am basing this statement on costs of general goods I have purchased in that time)... Is it down enough? That's another question entirely...
Chasing Amy takes place two years past Clerks/Mallrats--you can peg together the timeline on the three movies by the references to Julie Dwyer (the girl who died of an embolism in the pool). I think that Kevin Smith talks about this in the liner notes of the Chasing Amy laserdisc, too...
From Holden's comments, I'm thinking this is at least 1-2 years after Chasing Amy, actually...
The Handspring Visor is build w/USB, not the serial connection in Palm handhelds.... I have a couple of USB->RJ-45 adapters lying around in my apartment right now--just need to get a driver together to make the Handspring recognize TCP/IP...Sure, it's not going to be anywhere near as fast as a 100Mbps card, but who really needs to swap out the entire memory of their handheld 1.5 times/second?hmmm... new project for me, I think...
I think I know what he means here, or at least what I tend to think about most of it...
Anyway, my view on moderation tend to depend on what I'm after--if I want everything, flames, trolls, and all, I can get it--and frequently do. However, if I want something resembling civility (to steal a phrase) or a quick run-through, I set my threshold higher. I used to run at -1 flat mode, but changed it because I just got tired of lots of crap... and yes, I will admit to kicking back down to -1 just to read good trolls...;)
I think this would go double if I was actually writing articles here--I'd always have my threshold at -1 when reading threads on my own stuff, and probably higher (0/1) when reading other comments...
[initial note: I pretty much agree totally w/the first reply to this comment, I just had a little more to throw in]
Due to the wonders of modern technology and old-fashioned bureaucracy, anyone can get the method for making LSD, without even buying the Anarchist Cookbook. If anyone's actually looked (I did in high school, years ago), the formula written in that book is a direct quote from the U.S. patent that was filed way back when... It's an interesting thing that the formula for an illegal (in the U.S.) substance is locked in the public record...
I think that a lot of what people here aren't noticing yet (mostly 'cause it involves a lot of reading the Zero Knowledge/Freedom docs, etc.), is that Freedom isn't for anonymous internet, it's for pseudonymous use--if you're not careful (e.g. by switching to another pseudonym while on a site which actively places/updates cookies), you can have your pseudonyms connected together--or to your real name, if you shut off Freedom while surfing...
You can check out their page for lots of details on what they have going on.... It can take a little digging, but there's lots of info there...
Liberty exists in proportion to wholesome restraint. -Daniel Webster, Speech at the Charleston Bar Dinner, May 10, 1847.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania
In the first case (child porn), you have to either accept that either you're going to trample on people's rights, or someone's not going to be as "safe" as they otherwise could be. I realize this sounds rather callous, especially in regard to children, but it's the truth. This (along w/terrorism) is one of the most often used arguments against privacy, especially on the internet. Of course, as soon as you start somewhere, you hit that lovely slippery slope fallacy--where does it stop? While a fallacy in a logical sense, people aren't always logical--far from it--so it applies, at least to some degree... Basically, it comes down to the question of how far are you willing to let the government (or anyone w/the resources to do so) pry into your affairs? Then ask yourself this: even if you say that things should stop there, why should your opinion of where to stop be any more of a limit than someone who draws the line at watching for people with "unhealthy" but perfectly legal habits?
On the flip side of this, Freedom can make it safer for children by keeping any personal information away from prying eyes, specifially those of child molesters, etc. So now which is more important, protecting children from child molesters, or to make it easier to track child molesters? It'd also make it easier for the police to do stings in chat rooms, etc., because they can create a relatively untraceable pseudonym...
On the happier and less controversial note of spammers, Freedom does reserve the right to pull 'nyms that are associated w/spam, etc.--a lot of spammers seem to be using either free email services until they get caught, or their own servers, so it'd get pretty expensive to pay $10/each for new names...
I think your argument here hinges on your use of the word "intuitive," as well as the fact that you don't seem to apply it to technical issues.
At an intuitive level, we all know generally what's right & wrong, and the law should basically state that on paper & make people accountable for it. You seem to be generalizing all applications of law into a basic "what is right v. what is wrong" category--something that works great in a monolithic, single-culture society with laws coming from a single person. Unfortunately, laws cover all sorts of things which just don't have a corresponding facet in the "feeling from the gut" area. To top it off, one person's right/wrong compass can be oriented in a totally different direction than many other people's--while most people don't have much problem with "don't kill another person" falling into the wrong category, things get more muddled in areas like, say, trademark law.
Why shouldn't trademark/copyright law apply to domain names? First-come, first-serve is just fine w/a relatively small user base (say, five yeras ago), but now the net's becoming a part of mainstream culture in many parts of the world--all those laws that apply in the "real world" apply just as much on the net, because it's no less a part of the real world as a library... People (on both sides of the issue) seem to refuse to believe/accept that the net isn't some separate reality, but is rather just another aspect of that one we're all walking around in...
If techies refuse to think in terms of interhuman interactions when working with the net, then there's a serious problem here--even in terms of your "intuition" with right/wrong, if you're not thinking about anything other than the technical aspects of things, you're not going to be thinking in a legal sense at all. Your example of "ftp vs www" is a key example of this...
I also want to make absolutely clear that I'm not siding for or against anyone here--I just don't think it's fair to simplify things to "everyone has a instinctive understanding of law, but technology takes learning and thought"... If that was the case, we wouldn't need lawyers--just laptops w/an indexed copy of laws/precedents on a couple of CDs...
To me, it seems that the biggest problem is that people with one aptitude (lawmakers, lawyers) are forced, by the nature of their aptitude/vocation, to make decisions in fields which may or may not be outside of their realm of knowledge. The crucial thing is, there's no one else to do it; unless some of those people who love technology and have an innate "feel" for it are willing to give up a career in that field to pursue one in law, to make sure appropriate laws are passed/enforced/defended...
*sigh*
okay, I think that's about as far as I can go w/out wandering far afield...
Actually, my roommate and I watch DVD movies on our computers all the time.... as do several of my friends, for that matter (esp. on laptops)....
As for the "quality DVD player for $300", I already have a computer, my TV is 15 years old, and I found a DVD drive for $30 (2x, no hardware decoder)... Tack on a software decoder, and I abruptly have the ability to watch movies on a better screen than my TV provides... To top it off, I already use a recliner for my computer chair, so comfort isn't exactly an issue...;)
seriously, though, I think that it is something of a big deal that this is going on--if they'd opened up the crypto, had it peer reviewed, and the patented it, I'd have no real argument ('cept that I couldn't watch movies on my computer anymore)--but they didn't. Trade secrets are just that: secrets. If the secret gets out through something other than industrial espionage, well, that's just too bad...
actually, my oil filter (like most cars) is just down on the bottom of the block--so that the oil will drain out when you remove it, thus killing two birds (changing oil & filter) with one stone...
The rest of what you were saying is pretty much on the money, though... I can't even change my own spark plugs, 'cause I have to remove part of the fuel injection system to get to'em... and I'm not about to do that in the parking lot of my apartment building... of course, if I had my own garage (i.e. one attached to a house, not an auto-repair place), I'd probably do it anyway... I think it's more of a measure of how far you're willing to go, rather than making it impossible...
on that note, think of those older computers (e.g. Packard Bell) that used to make it so that you had to have special tools and three hands (literally) to open up the case... gak...
Also keep in mind that a good-sized chunk of NASA's technological advances come in the realm of metallurgy, plastics, life support, etc. Using 5 year old technology in the complex systems they design makes it even easier to implement them in the "real world".... Which is better, a system that does the job superlatively which costs $500 to build, or one that costs $5000 and can play Quake3 while doing its job?
Admittedly, if I was using it on my desktop, I'd like to be able to do other stuff at the same time; for a dedicated system, I'd rather have it be simple and capable of doing its job... There's just less to go wrong that way...
>Of course, all he said was that the White House >would be involved. He didn't say which way. >Nice, bland, noncommittal, non-responsive >response. Perfect candidate.
While the actual statement about White House involvement was noncommittal (and somewhat superfluous, considering that the DoJ is in the Executive branch), he pretty much flat-out said that he supported the DoJ's prosecution:
. . . he said he supported the nation's antitrust laws and that the laws applied to software companies as well as other industries . . . "If dominance in one area is used to prevent competition in another area, that is wrong,"
Sorry, but there's just not much ambiguity there...
I think that you also need to keep in mind that "illegal search and seizure" only applies to acts performed by government agents (e.g. police, FBI, etc.). Information gathered by civilians is admissible in a courtroom, regardless of how it was gained.
Basically, since CMU is a private school (or at least I'm fairly certain it is), they can use said info, whether it was on their systems or on the students... Of course, if it was gained illegally, they could theoretically be in danger of litigation from the students--but I somehow doubt this is going to happen (if nothing else, it's probably in their network connection contract to be able to access connected systems at will)...
Not to burst too many bubbles, but barring the multiple screwdrivers, it doesn't seem all that different than the Victorinox knife in my pocket--most of those tools've been on several of their knives for ages (I should know--I've used that thing to tear apart I-don't-know-how-many computers).... Check out their page of Swiss Army knives to see what I mean... I carry around a Craftsman (variant of the Handyman), for sake of comparison...
Admittedly, having all those swappable screwdriver heads stored in the knife is pretty cool--one less thing to have in my bag....;)
The problem with the right-to-left alternation doesn't work as well when you consider that the most often used letters (E, S, T, etc.) are on the left-hand side. Admittedly, so are Q and Z, but one of the reasons that all those letters (which should normally come fairly close together) are on the left-hand side is to force typists to use their left hands more frequently.
Since most people are right handed, well, it slows down most typists... With older lever-based typewriters, a right-handed typist would be slower, but the left-handed person would have more jamming--it evened out, speed-wise. Nowadays, lefties have an edge w/the QWERTY layout when using computers or more modern (ball-based) typewriters, because that pesky lock-up doesn't happen.
And, as much as a book reference w/out a hard reference is worth, there were comments in my old typing class "textbook" (and yes, I did take typing in high school, much to my chagrin) to the effect of companies choosing the QWERTY layout early on to slow down typists...
ummm... that's the solicitor, not the mystery man--if you read the text, you'll see that solicitor is listening, while the mystery man is holding the disk/hardcopy....
Speaking of sci-fi, isn't this remarkably similar (in form, even) to the nano-assembler tools used Neal Stephenson's Diamond Age? A friend of mine and I were talking about the startling nearness (time-wise) of the tech in there (you can figure it out if you check out things like historical references and people's ages)--but with things like this coming about now, it seems like Stephenson's time-scale (at least on the nanotech part) might be right on the button...
I don't know--if this was a huge factor, then why hasn't some other country without the United States' limitations done it? You seem to be assuming that the only paper production/printing companies in the world are in the United States... If there are companies out in the rest of the world doing exactly this, I'll happily stand down, but I haven't seen anything along these lines myself...
While I agree with your sentiments, I'd still like to point out an earlier post. Personally, I'd like to see more hard numbers on this, as opposed to people just tossing around propagandized statistics from both sides.
Slashdot Mirror
Sorry, but this is not even remotely a fair comparision--a CD (in mint condition) from fifteen years ago holds roughly the same perceived value as a CD just released, whereas a computer of the same age doesn't even come close (as you quite accurately showed).
Admittedly, people who do a lot of file trading/etc. now tend to think that CDs in general are not worth as much--but that was not your argument. With cost balanced by inflation, CDs have probably come down somewhat in price (I don't have the actual inflation rates in the US for the last fifteen years, and am basing this statement on costs of general goods I have purchased in that time)... Is it down enough? That's another question entirely...
Chasing Amy takes place two years past Clerks/Mallrats--you can peg together the timeline on the three movies by the references to Julie Dwyer (the girl who died of an embolism in the pool). I think that Kevin Smith talks about this in the liner notes of the Chasing Amy laserdisc, too...
From Holden's comments, I'm thinking this is at least 1-2 years after Chasing Amy, actually...
The Handspring Visor is build w/USB, not the serial connection in Palm handhelds.... I have a couple of USB->RJ-45 adapters lying around in my apartment right now--just need to get a driver together to make the Handspring recognize TCP/IP...Sure, it's not going to be anywhere near as fast as a 100Mbps card, but who really needs to swap out the entire memory of their handheld 1.5 times/second?hmmm... new project for me, I think...
There's a lot of similar quotes between the two, really...
Anyway, my view on moderation tend to depend on what I'm after--if I want everything, flames, trolls, and all, I can get it--and frequently do. However, if I want something resembling civility (to steal a phrase) or a quick run-through, I set my threshold higher. I used to run at -1 flat mode, but changed it because I just got tired of lots of crap... and yes, I will admit to kicking back down to -1 just to read good trolls... ;)
I think this would go double if I was actually writing articles here--I'd always have my threshold at -1 when reading threads on my own stuff, and probably higher (0/1) when reading other comments...
-cicatrix
Due to the wonders of modern technology and old-fashioned bureaucracy, anyone can get the method for making LSD, without even buying the Anarchist Cookbook. If anyone's actually looked (I did in high school, years ago), the formula written in that book is a direct quote from the U.S. patent that was filed way back when... It's an interesting thing that the formula for an illegal (in the U.S.) substance is locked in the public record...
Just thought I'd throw that in...
-cicatrix
you seem to be ignoring the "minor" detail that using said software will be illegal in the US soon, regardless of its nation of origin...
:) Thanks--hadn't heard the Emerson quote before... Off to dig a bit more on people I quote...
I think that a lot of what people here aren't noticing yet (mostly 'cause it involves a lot of reading the Zero Knowledge/Freedom docs, etc.), is that Freedom isn't for anonymous internet, it's for pseudonymous use--if you're not careful (e.g. by switching to another pseudonym while on a site which actively places/updates cookies), you can have your pseudonyms connected together--or to your real name, if you shut off Freedom while surfing...
You can check out their page for lots of details on what they have going on.... It can take a little digging, but there's lots of info there...
Liberty exists in proportion to wholesome restraint.
-Daniel Webster, Speech at the Charleston Bar Dinner, May 10, 1847.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania
On the flip side of this, Freedom can make it safer for children by keeping any personal information away from prying eyes, specifially those of child molesters, etc. So now which is more important, protecting children from child molesters, or to make it easier to track child molesters? It'd also make it easier for the police to do stings in chat rooms, etc., because they can create a relatively untraceable pseudonym...
On the happier and less controversial note of spammers, Freedom does reserve the right to pull 'nyms that are associated w/spam, etc.--a lot of spammers seem to be using either free email services until they get caught, or their own servers, so it'd get pretty expensive to pay $10/each for new names...
At an intuitive level, we all know generally what's right & wrong, and the law should basically state that on paper & make people accountable for it.
You seem to be generalizing all applications of law into a basic "what is right v. what is wrong" category--something that works great in a monolithic, single-culture society with laws coming from a single person. Unfortunately, laws cover all sorts of things which just don't have a corresponding facet in the "feeling from the gut" area. To top it off, one person's right/wrong compass can be oriented in a totally different direction than many other people's--while most people don't have much problem with "don't kill another person" falling into the wrong category, things get more muddled in areas like, say, trademark law.
Why shouldn't trademark/copyright law apply to domain names? First-come, first-serve is just fine w/a relatively small user base (say, five yeras ago), but now the net's becoming a part of mainstream culture in many parts of the world--all those laws that apply in the "real world" apply just as much on the net, because it's no less a part of the real world as a library... People (on both sides of the issue) seem to refuse to believe/accept that the net isn't some separate reality, but is rather just another aspect of that one we're all walking around in...
If techies refuse to think in terms of interhuman interactions when working with the net, then there's a serious problem here--even in terms of your "intuition" with right/wrong, if you're not thinking about anything other than the technical aspects of things, you're not going to be thinking in a legal sense at all. Your example of "ftp vs www" is a key example of this...
I also want to make absolutely clear that I'm not siding for or against anyone here--I just don't think it's fair to simplify things to "everyone has a instinctive understanding of law, but technology takes learning and thought"... If that was the case, we wouldn't need lawyers--just laptops w/an indexed copy of laws/precedents on a couple of CDs...
To me, it seems that the biggest problem is that people with one aptitude (lawmakers, lawyers) are forced, by the nature of their aptitude/vocation, to make decisions in fields which may or may not be outside of their realm of knowledge. The crucial thing is, there's no one else to do it; unless some of those people who love technology and have an innate "feel" for it are willing to give up a career in that field to pursue one in law, to make sure appropriate laws are passed/enforced/defended...
*sigh*
okay, I think that's about as far as I can go w/out wandering far afield...
As for the "quality DVD player for $300", I already have a computer, my TV is 15 years old, and I found a DVD drive for $30 (2x, no hardware decoder)... Tack on a software decoder, and I abruptly have the ability to watch movies on a better screen than my TV provides... To top it off, I already use a recliner for my computer chair, so comfort isn't exactly an issue... ;)
seriously, though, I think that it is something of a big deal that this is going on--if they'd opened up the crypto, had it peer reviewed, and the patented it, I'd have no real argument ('cept that I couldn't watch movies on my computer anymore)--but they didn't. Trade secrets are just that: secrets. If the secret gets out through something other than industrial espionage, well, that's just too bad...
okay, I'm done ranting now--back to work...
The rest of what you were saying is pretty much on the money, though... I can't even change my own spark plugs, 'cause I have to remove part of the fuel injection system to get to'em... and I'm not about to do that in the parking lot of my apartment building... of course, if I had my own garage (i.e. one attached to a house, not an auto-repair place), I'd probably do it anyway... I think it's more of a measure of how far you're willing to go, rather than making it impossible...
on that note, think of those older computers (e.g. Packard Bell) that used to make it so that you had to have special tools and three hands (literally) to open up the case... gak...
Admittedly, if I was using it on my desktop, I'd like to be able to do other stuff at the same time; for a dedicated system, I'd rather have it be simple and capable of doing its job... There's just less to go wrong that way...
a;slkdfja;slkdfja;slkdfj
hmmm....
>would be involved. He didn't say which way.
>Nice, bland, noncommittal, non-responsive
>response. Perfect candidate.
While the actual statement about White House involvement was noncommittal (and somewhat superfluous, considering that the DoJ is in the Executive branch), he pretty much flat-out said that he supported the DoJ's prosecution:
. . . he said he supported the nation's antitrust laws and that the laws applied to software companies as well as other industries . . . "If dominance in one area is used to prevent competition in another area, that is wrong,"
Sorry, but there's just not much ambiguity there...
Basically, since CMU is a private school (or at least I'm fairly certain it is), they can use said info, whether it was on their systems or on the students... Of course, if it was gained illegally, they could theoretically be in danger of litigation from the students--but I somehow doubt this is going to happen (if nothing else, it's probably in their network connection contract to be able to access connected systems at will)...
Admittedly, having all those swappable screwdriver heads stored in the knife is pretty cool--one less thing to have in my bag.... ;)
Since most people are right handed, well, it slows down most typists... With older lever-based typewriters, a right-handed typist would be slower, but the left-handed person would have more jamming--it evened out, speed-wise. Nowadays, lefties have an edge w/the QWERTY layout when using computers or more modern (ball-based) typewriters, because that pesky lock-up doesn't happen.
And, as much as a book reference w/out a hard reference is worth, there were comments in my old typing class "textbook" (and yes, I did take typing in high school, much to my chagrin) to the effect of companies choosing the QWERTY layout early on to slow down typists...
ummm... that's the solicitor, not the mystery man--if you read the text, you'll see that solicitor is listening, while the mystery man is holding the disk/hardcopy....
Speaking of sci-fi, isn't this remarkably similar (in form, even) to the nano-assembler tools used Neal Stephenson's Diamond Age? A friend of mine and I were talking about the startling nearness (time-wise) of the tech in there (you can figure it out if you check out things like historical references and people's ages)--but with things like this coming about now, it seems like Stephenson's time-scale (at least on the nanotech part) might be right on the button...
I don't know--if this was a huge factor, then why hasn't some other country without the United States' limitations done it? You seem to be assuming that the only paper production/printing companies in the world are in the United States... If there are companies out in the rest of the world doing exactly this, I'll happily stand down, but I haven't seen anything along these lines myself...
While I agree with your sentiments, I'd still like to point out an earlier post. Personally, I'd like to see more hard numbers on this, as opposed to people just tossing around propagandized statistics from both sides.