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Keyboards - Dvorak or Qwerty?
A voice from the mass of Slashdot Anonymous Cowards asks: "A friend of mine has been using a dovark keyboard for about 3 months. He says that his that it has increased his speed almost double. From what I understand the qwerty keyboard was designed to slow people down when they used type writters. Now, since they are on computers, why is the world (US) not using them ? Do you think it is worth using it. I work as a computer tech. if I go to fix some guys computer, is he going to look at me strange becuase I can't type on a qwerty keyboard. I wanted to see everyones opinion on this one. " Um. Are you going to look at me funny because I can't type on a Dvorak keyboard? Do they even make Dvorak keyboards for computers? If so, where can I find such a beast?
Well, I've had a few friends swear by it, even just today. They even claim it keeps wear down on the fingers and wrists.
As long as you can use QWERTY as well, I see no problem... Mac OS supports it, so I guess I'll be seeing how easy it is to pop off the keys on the little toy keyboards Apple ships nowadays.
Classic Urban Legend. It's actually supposed to be only 15% more efficient than QWERTY.
An even better question is if you can get an ergonomic Dvorak keyboard for a computer.
Ive read about 3 studies in the last week calling Dvorak's speed a myth, but read about 200 eyewitness accounts (most on /.) claiming it is superior, I know who Im going to believe.
QWERTY is really not slower than Dvorak, or rather if it is, it's by a small amount. One thing nice about learning Dvorak, though, is that if you're too lazy to move around the keys on your keyboard, it forces you into learning proper touchtyping. :).
As for actual benefits, Dvorak is just more comfortable for me. I don't know if it's faster; I don't know if it's helping me avoid CTS; I couldn't care in the least. It's more comfortable, and I'm happy with that. It could be a placebo, and once again, I couldn't give a flying fuck.
And as for forgetting QWERTY: if you actually enter the real world once in a blue moon, you won't have the chance. The world is wired on QWERTY, and using anything besides your own computer will force you to keep in top QWERTY form. FYI: I was about 100wpm QWERTY before I learned Dvorak; now I'm about 80wpm QWERTY and 100wpm+ Dvorak. You can be sure I'll never willingly go back to QWERTY, though
They are not designed to slow you down per se, but to reduce the likelihood of type levers jamming in an old-fashioned manual typewriter. Also, it has been pointed out that you can type "typewriter" with just the keys on the top row, a hack that at allowed early typewriter salescreatures who could not themselves type, show the machine off. My opnion: So what. I can type on this faster than I can think as it is.
I've never used a Dvorak, but I think I might try it. If you've been typing QWERTY for a while (and I have), it should be really easy to switch back and forth. I can switch virtually unconsciously between QWERTY, AZERTY (the 'French' layout), and Sun's keyboards (CAPS + CTRL switched, among other things) without slowing down...sure, it took a while at first to get used to them...but once you learn it, you know it.
Sorry but I do not buy that. I'm using an ergonomic keyboard right now and bought the first available one years ago. It took me some time to get used to it but it was and is well worth it. If someone feels better with a type X keyboard than so it shall be. People first, technology second and the costs ... what about health ? In addition with so many people with machines at home lots of them would get used to their keyboards on the fly. A computer is a tool and I do not want to adjust myself to a "thing".
And enjoy the ride!
There are companies that produce Dvorak keyboards. I don't recall names. But why pay for it when M$ already includes at least 3 types of Dvorak k/b layouts in WinXX ( US - Dvorak 2 hands, US - Dvorak LH, US - Dvorak RH ). Start->Settings->Control Panels->Keybaord->Language->Properties The cheapest way to remember the keys is to buy some of some lettering from an office supply company and then use clear nail polish to seal it. ( Even cheaper is a felt pen ).
>Also, it's been discovered that the >alternate-hand version of typing is >actually very speedy. While one finger >is whacking one key, the other is moving >into position. Conclusion: just stick with >QWERTY. It works, Your conclusion doesn't jive with your evidence, dude. Dvorak is all about alternate-hand typing. You should have said, "Since alternate-hand typing has been proven to be very speedy, we should all be using Dvorak." I use Dvorak keymapping on an MS Natural keyboard, and if I ever need to type one handed because I'm holding a book or using the mouse or something, it is comparatively rare for successive keys to be on the same half (corresponding to a hand) on the keyboard compared to using QUERTY, where it is often easy to type whole words with one hand. Dvorak layout was designed to optimize alternating-hand typing. That's one of the reasons that all the vowels are on one side, because it is very common to have a alteration of vowels and consonants.
It may cost a lot to force people to change, but it costs nothing for people to change on their own. The same goes for the metric system. We just can't expect things to change overnight is all.
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards.html
they make a DVORAK version too. I use their QUERTY version and haven't actually timed myself but it certainly seems I can type much faster.. it does take some getting used to, but once you get going it's really comfortable. And I don't have a problem switching to normal flat keyboards after using this.
skip the expense of finding/buying a dvorak keyboard...just get comfy with xmodmap. sheesh. spend money when you could be browsing manual pages instead?
I'm sorry, but do people really think about these things? Isn't there something better to do? Keyboards? I have an exam to take....
From someone who actually does know both, I can say you're wrong. It is no harder to know both of them than it is to know one of them. It does take some learning, though. These same arguments could be applied to learning a second human language (e.g. Korean, Italian)...would you say it's of no use to know two languages?
Do pull the keys off of your keyboard and rearrange them. Then you can call it a dvorak keyboard in the software. You can find Dvorak layouts with any search engine.
You obviously don't know Dvorak. Even if my typing speed were halved, I would prefer Dvorak over QWERTY. There's a reason why people buy luxury cars over sports cars.
The Apple //c had a switch on the top of the unit, right near the keyboard, that let you specify QWERTY or DVORAK. You'd pop off the keys and rearrange them to spec if you went DVORAK. Real horror show. bp
When you learn French, do you forget English? When you learn Dvorak, do you forget QWERTY?
I have some contradictory advice. Do NOT buy a Dvorak board, Dvorak stickers, or move around the keys on your keyboard. For once in your life, learn to touchtype properly. The one month of hell is worth the umpteen years of more comfortable typing.
Access to the , or are a little more convenient than QWERTY, they correspond to the w and e on QWERTY. / is a little more convinient as well, it goes where [ or { is on QWERTY. The {} are unfortunately a bit worse on Dvorak, they go where the - or _ and = or + keys would be on a QWERTY board. The symbols that you get from - remain the same. The position of the {} is the only thing that I think is worse with Dvorak. In all other respects I prefer it.
The keyboard layout is easy to find. However, since you're obviously far too important to do any of your own research, I might as well tell you. The $ is where it is in QWERTY. The {, } are where the _, + are in QWERTY. The are where the W, E are in QWERTY.
Should have hit preview. That last line should read "The are where the W, E are in QWERTY."
OK fuck that; I give up on Slashdot.
QWERTY keyboards are junk!! They have held their monopoly long enough...I switched to DVORAK a while ago and after about 18 months of typing like a guy with no arms...I am now typing about 10-15% faster.
Kill the evil QWERTY!! the world will not be a safe, productive place until that useless, illogical hunk of junk is gone forever!!
I equate a QWERTY user with an M$ user...you fær change and except the status quo.
You can get some info at The Straight Dope
Here's a quote from the site:
"They point out that (1) the research demonstrating the superiority of the Dvorak keyboard is sparse and methodologically suspect; (2) a sizable body of work suggests that in fact the Dvorak offers little practical advantage over the QWERTY; (3) at least one study indicates that placing commonly used keys far apart, as with the QWERTY, actually speeds typing, since you frequently alternate hands; and (4) the QWERTY keyboard did not become a standard overnight but beat out several competing keyboards over a period of years. Thus it may be fairly said to represent the considered choice of the marketplace"
It seems to me like many people switch to Dvorak because it has a high "nerd factor" instead of it being a Good Idea (tm). Kind of like why many people switch to the current Unix of the month.
Just get an old style IBM clicker keyboard, or get it from www.pckeyboards.com and pull the keys and swap em. the legendary Northgate keyboard also does that. Why would you buy a cheap, overpriced, membran "Dvorak" keyboard? it does not make sense. you want to start with a good keyboard first.
Hmm, it has eaten my less than sign. "...worth [less than] $0!"
There once was a man from Verdun
QWERTY keyboards are junk!! They have held their monopoly long enough...I switched to DVORAK a while ago and after about 18 months of typing like a guy with no arms...I am now typing about 10-15% faster. Kill the evil QWERTY!! the world will not be a safe, productive place until that useless, illogical hunk of junk is gone forever!! I equate a QWERTY user with an M$ user...you fær change and except the status quo
Yd. EKRPAT t.fnafrgy co k.pf .aof yr jdabi. cb
oruy,ap.v Cy-o a obal yr jdabi. cb cber,o 98v
(oops, had wrong layout selected)
Sounds like a good way to prevent RSI as well. Why exactly is DVORAK mentioned in relation to RSI anyway? That it feels more natural is hardly a good reason, two finger typing feels perfectly natural... clicking a mouse doesnt feel unnatural either. We've had enough "meant to slow down typing is urban myth" threads now... somoene do a "DVORAK prevents RSI is urban myth" thread :) (or not if somoene can give some actual proof)
Sounds like a good way to prevent RSI as well. Why exactly is DVORAK mentioned in relation to RSI anyway? That it feels more natural is hardly a good reason, two finger typing feels perfectly natural... clicking a mouse doesnt feel unnatural either.
:) (or not if somoene can give some actual proof)
We've had enough "meant to slow down typing is urban myth" threads now... somoene do a "DVORAK prevents RSI is urban myth" thread
I suggest playing some Dvorak while you're typing. That always speeds my typing rate up. Everybody likes his Slavonic Dances.
Andrew Lankford
Anyone have any thoughts about CUA stuff like ctrl-X,C,V ? I use this a lot on Win, Mac, and FTE with Linux. Looking at the layout, the X,C,V keys make a nice triangle which look like they would work well with the left hand holding control, and the right hand hitting the X,C, or V. But the again, I like doing ctrl-X,C,V with only the left hand on those occasions when my right hand is using a mouse. I guess I could remap the J,K,X keys to do this. Ant thoughts anyone?
Yes... Linux (and Unix in general) support dvorak. For X-windows, you can use xmodmap to change the keyboard layout with the correct xmodmap dump. From the console, you can set the keyboard with the correct keysym file and whatever command it is (look in your system startup scripts, where the keyboard is initialized...). Redhat ships with the console keysym file for dvorak, and a couple others.
I've always wondered this.
Until the advent of C, this had to be one of the least used characters in the English language.
Wouldn't it be more sensible to have something like 'e' on the homerow?
I tried Dvorak for a couple of weeks and dropped it. Missed having L on the home row, and the choice to put U, not I, under a finger is bizarre.
Next time I remap the keyboard, it will be for Perl/C++. Appearing on the Home row: {[*/$ '":]}#
I'm a little confused. I didn't think qwerty was designed to slow people down, but rather to space out the most used keys physically so that they wouldn't be hit at the same time (Notice how "I" and "S" are at opposite ends). In the old fashioned typewriters, the swinging arms were arranged according to the keyboard layout (which doesn't make sense if it was causing problems, you could just as easily rearrange the letters on the arms and have a slightly more complex path from the arm to the key. Wait a minute, that would require effort on the part of the manufacturer in an age where companies weren't even bound by truth in advertising.) It wasn't to slow people down, but to give the more frequently used keys space so that their typeface-arms could swing freely, or so I thought. It makes more sense that way. I just don't see how the particular arrangement of keys can be faster to a person. Does the brain more naturally understand Dvorak? Is there, somewhere in your primoidial cerebellum, a deep and intimate knowledge of a now obscure keyboard? Typing isn't a natural thought process, folks. It has to be learned. Rearranging the letters is *not* going to make it natural, it's just going to make it in a different location.
The thing about it is that learning Dvorak and keeping your QWERTY skills must be weird. After a while, you would probably make lots of mistakes when you went back to a QWERTY, which you will find almost everywhere.
I'd rather get a BAT keyboardInfogrip. Sure you only get around 30-50 wpm, but you can use your mouse at the same time with your other hand(actually, I got a trackball a while ago and it works great!) and it can be linked to a regular keyboard when you really need the speed (I would assume copying something?). Since all your fingers are always in the same place, you reduce risk of RSI and stuff like that. Their FAQ says that BAT skills are proven to be different than keyboard skills, so it won't interfere with your regular QWERTY typing. I can type 80 wpm at max, but I rarely do when I'm doing something for school, because I'm thinking at the same time. I don't think I could think up an essay as fast as I can type.
Of course, you could always get the insanely priced Datahand. They use a QWERTY layout, but you probably can't tell from the picture. Basically, everything is right beside your fingers.
Fuckin sure there is, baby! From the console: loadkeys dvorak loadkeys -d You can even set up /etc/inittab to make alt-ctrl-del loadkeys -d, so you don't even have to be logged in, unlike the guy who suggested 'aoeu' getting you back. If you do this loadkeys thing and then start X, X will be in dvorak as well. The only problem now is video games that use raw keyboard handling. I wrote a patch for svgalib to give it dvorak support, but it turns out the newest version has it anyway. I suggest someone does the same for any game API that supports raw keyboard under linux that they want to use. /me uses dvorak emacs :)
One of the main design goals of Dvorak was to encourage and ease the use of these "ballistic" typing actions. Dvorak wasn't really designed for speed as such, though, but more for comfort. All of the most often used keys are on the home row so you don't have to move your hands as much. I've been able to get up to 140wpm on qwerty a few times in those typing tutors, but I can only do that for so long before my hands start to ache horribly. When I was trying out dvorak for a few weeks, my hands wouldn't get so pained, but the frustration of screwing up so often and typing at a measly 40wpm on average made me sick of it and I've been using qwerty since. Though, I might try Dvorak again sooner or later. Maybe when I can find my way out of the house and pop out to buy a dvorak overlay or cheap keyboard.
A while back I started learning to type dvorak, but after awhile gave up. The reason is not because it is inefficient or whatever, it is simply because coding is setup for qwerty. All the emacs keys are setup for dvorak. Even stuff like cut, paste, etc is setup for qwerty. Besides that, people can't even code faster than they can think, and if they can they're in a job too low for them :) OTH if you're a typist secretary or whatever go for it!
Actually, I prefer the "lack" of movement while using the Dvorak layout. My fingers/wrists don't tire as quickly, so I can type faster/longer.
The MS Natural keyboard is just about the ONLY good thing Microsoft's done, alongside the MS Sidewinder Gamepad (perfect for emulators..) Odd how they only thing they can get right is hardware, yet they're supposed to be primarialy a software company..
You say: ...
A voice from the mass of Slashdot Anonymous Cowards asks
The anonymous slashdotters like myself are the ultimate symbols of freedom that the slashdot community and the open source comunity can ever have represent them. Why? Because ... anonymity is the ultimate symbol of freedom. In a "free society?" we can not what your race, age, religion, sexual preference, or name is. We only care that you express yourself freely. And slashdot is about freedom. As you may note the free-est expressions come from the anonymous ones. I vote that we change our name from "Anonymous Coward" to "Freedom Fighter". Any seconds?
Yours truly,
AC
Dvorak is easier on the hands, as your fingers do not deviate as much from the home row (especially your left hand.)
For anyone seriously interested in ergonomics, I would highly recommend the kinesis contour keyboard. I bit hefty in terms of price, but considering how determined I am to prevent RSI, I think its worth every penny. The layout is hardware switchable (on QD models) so you don't have to futz with software.
Check out the Kinesis homepage and take a gander. But beware... If you decide to invest in one (or more) of these beasties, you will never hear the end of "what a funky keyboard... how do you type on that thing?"
"You know what makes America great? Everyone has the right to be wrong!"
Give me a Point-Of-Sale keyboard so I can type one handed, play games with multiple keys in use, and have a button to order a pizza.
faster != better.
Yes, the { is where the F3 is in QWERTY. The [ is where the NumLock is. The } and ] are the same key (you have to hit } four times to get ]) and it is shift-tab.
Does anyone have an elliptical cryto keyboard.
I don't know about your keyboard, but the / and the . are next to each other on my keyboard (which, but the way, is one of those spiffy hardwired dvorak and qwerty keyboards) Jeremy
To quote Abe Simpson, "The metric system is the tool of the Devil. My car gets 40 rods to the hogshead, and that's the way I likes it!"
You do not have to rely on hearsay to determine if Dvorak is better than QWERTY. Scientific studies have been done on this subject. You can read about them at Reason Magazine Timothy Roloff
I had an Apple //e that could be set to DVORAK layout by means of a jumper.I always thought the //c was cool bacause of the front mounted switch. The keys on the //e could be pryed up and rearranged, but because of the slight curvature of the keyboard the new locations would give the keyboard a lumpy feel.Using both layouts is only slightly harder than dialing the phone while using your 10 key,another completely different layout that I bet nobody ever thinks about.
I have to look at the keyboard while I type or my fingers get misaligned, but my max speed was measured by some computer program at 90WPM. My friends call me the fastest hunt and peckers they've ever seen, but I don't have to hunt per se... I know where all the keys are, I just need to glance at the keyboard occasionally to stay on track.
Yes, I type with a modified dvorak layout (so that
/[]{} are in better places. I have vim set up so when I edit C, the position of ; is moved as well.
Remapping keys under linux and X is trivial, and
I have a number of other changes as well, such
as console switch is plain fkeys without alt, caps
and control are switched (very useful), and caps
lock only locks and unlocks with shift, like some
typewriters.
Someone who doesn't take advantage of key remappings is to me like the person who laboriously type (and retypes) every file name on csh or sh when he could switch to a real shell in 5 seconds and use tab.
People are conservative even when it's inconvenient to be so.
Yes, the alternating of hands is a happy accident, but the dvorak layout improves on it by optimizing the positions of most frequently used letters to fall not only on the home row, but under the strongest fingers on the home row. Medium frequency keys are placed above the home row, not below it where the curve of the finger is awkward.
In most comparisons, there is a myopic obsession with speed. Even if dvorak is not faster, isn't it a good thing if it contributes to less fatigue and RSI?
As for the benefit of dvorak in a qwerty world, all I can say is your mileage may vary. If someone is curious, I say definately try it out, but I'm not an evangelist.
I discovered dvorak at the same time I was learning to type so unlike most people pondering dvorak now, I didn't have any touch typing to unlearn. I found dvorak much easier to learn but I can't really say if it is faster because I eventually dropped qwerty so I never properly learned it. So, r ight now I'm easily twice as fast on dvorak as I am qwerty, but I wouldn't claim that dvorak is twice as fast as qwerty.
Nooo.. The MS Ergo keyboard is pure evil.. :-) It just shows you where your homebrew typing system is "wrong" and gives a hard time for anyone who doesn't do the 100% correct 10-finger system.. Old IBM clickety-keyboards are the best for rearranging, as the keycaps can be totally rearranged without it looking bad. Some keyboards I've seen have different angles on different rows of keys so when you dvorakize it, the keys slant up and down, and it looks and feels terrible. Oh, by the way, a person called Matti Airas has created a version of dvorak suited for Finnish people.. Even though most of the page is in Finnish, you can at least see what the kbd looks like.
Manual dexterity and practice probably has more to do with speed than the layout of the keyboard. The QWERTY may originally have been designed to slow typists down, but with practice that can be overcome, as many can attest. Case in point: My mother is a concert pianist and when she was in highschool in the 60's and a secretary in the 70's, she tested at >150 wpm on a manual, and considerably higher than that on an IBM Selectric. Actually, on an old Mac SE, she could type faster than the response of the keyboard, so entire words in phrases would be missing, or consist of simply the first and last letters. Can't imagine that having a Dvorak layout would have improved that situation at all.
What about optimization for other languages than English? Is Dvorak going to help if you have to type something as strange as Finnish? A lot of the articles say that the layout was specially optimized for the Enlish language. Are there layouts designed for the rest of the world? I know that at least the Germans have their own variety of QWERTY.
Two of the guys here at work changed over to dvorak about a month ago. So far they seem to be still ajusting, I am yet to give it a try, but have typed on there keyboards with out to much trouble.
All they did was print out a dvorak layout and stick on the letters with tape.
that you find on all the "modern" keyboards, on a DVORAK keyboard???
The best keyboard series for this is an original IBM keyboard - the keycaps were designed to be popped off (in fact, they have keycaps _under_ the keycaps. :) ) - Chad
Yeah, I love my MS Natural keyboard... it is a god send... i see Logitech has developed a few now also... too bad they weren't available when I bought this. That and my MS Intelimouse Pro. Amazing mouse. I miss the wheel in Linux.... I hate throwing money at a big company like MS just like the next guy, but these two products are damnnnnn sweet. I've never been so happy with the money I spent...
The older IBM PS/2 keyboards had removable keycaps, so you could swap letter arrangements without incurring wrong tilt of the keys. I used one of these kbds for a spell, but the really solid, abrupt stopping of the keystroke when complete eventually hurt my fingers. I'm now using a Key Tronic FlexPro, although I rarely raise the "bulkhead doors". I bought a set of Hooleon adhesive labels, which in a way are really good, but had an extremely unfortunate problem. They are multilayer, and have a wear-resistant transparent top layer, probably polycarbonate. Problem is that the individual labels are die-cut. The edges of the top layer stick up in the air slightly because of the concave keytop surface. These edges drove me nuts! Couldn't successfully trim them off. Current makeshift is embossed letters (Hand-grooved) in the white opaque base layer, filled with India ink, but the ink (not surprisingly) doesn't stay. I expect to order a set of Dvorak keytops soon from Key Tronic. I might get a Dvorty Board. ("Dirty bird") Still using Moss Doss, believe it or not (shell account...)(with Codepage 819 for Latin-1). Downloaded GA0650.EXE from microsoft, and installed the two-handed version. Provided a programmer doesn't cheat by using raw key codes, it works flawlessly. Do I like it? I love it! All the letters are where they should be. Going back to Qwerty after a long spell of non-use is sheer misery; only after you use Dvorak exclusively for a while, do you then realize how awful Qwerty is. My technique is to look at the kbd (not a good idea, I know); eventually hope to learn touch-typing. Errors are now about 1% of what they were with Qwerty, although it took a long time to get my error rate so low.
*me gets a shiver down his spine*
It only takes about 15 minutes to rearrange your keyboard. All of my machines (BeOS, Mandrake OS/2 have Dvorak layouts.
For us who have developed a chaotic QWERTY style, what's it like to go to Dvorak?
I don't type touch, my hands move around a lot. Sometimes I use my right hand for dialing or picking up the phone, type with my left and suddenly my right hand is back typing on the left-hand side while my left hand is crossed under on the right side! Would Dvorak speed up this kind of typing?
Seems Dvaorak speeds up typing from the "home row". However, this is mainly for English typing. How about other languages with different character frequency profiles? I cam imagine some East-European languages using for instance z, c, v and b a lot more than English does. Very often computers are extremely US-centric, or at least slightly anglophile.
Personally I take a second to switch my mind between standard US and native language keyboard. Tried French AZERTY once and I could hardly write at all!
alias hu=ls
No, not simple. More easy to find without reading doco, perhaps. But typing 'dv' or 'qw', I find a lot simpler way to switch than the six steps you need in Windows. You even need to search through and pick from a list, every time, even if you know what you want to do, and do it every day. Shees.
Vim allows you to remap keys in any way. You can keep vi commands as if they were in qwerty. This way you won't have to re-learn vi for dvorak.
:-)
I was going to do it myself but well...
As for { and } I don't care that much. I prefer python anyway
I find vi quite useless with dvorak, but on the other hand I use vi only when using console with qwerty keyboard--with X and dvorak layout I use emacs. Even though emacs keybindings have been designed with qwerty in mind, it is usable after learning the new keys.
I once heard a rumor, that QWERTY key-layout was primarily put together such, that the sales-rep could type TYPEWRITER very fast, using only the top row of the keyboard.... Urban legend I guess..
Dvorak might be better for english typing,
but I dont get strain problems trying to
write text, it's when I reach for
and impossible combinations of
keys my joints really scream.
I strongly believe that it's not the QWERTY
layout that causes pain but microsoft short-
cuts like which were even
more damaging after keys came into
the picture. Not to mention all neccesary
key hidden under .
So what I really want is one of those
kinetic keyboard where at least and
seem to be at places where you don't
have to reach for them.
Dvorak might be good for speed, but there
are better solutions for speed typing.
You newer saw a subtitle writer using
a normal keyboard, they all use much
better keyboards typing in parts of
words by single strokes of combinations
of keys. This would really be useful,
especially for palmtops where a full
keyboard is out of the question.
Patrik Carlsson
Yeah - ever noticed that to type "Database" you use only your left hand? Qwerty was not designed for DBA's that's for sure :)
>> Personally, I'm not sure why we didn't get rid of QWERTY a long time ago > Same reason we didn't get rid of the metric system a long tome ago, probably.. So...should we be looking to NASA's Mars-lander programme for our Dvorak keyboards then?
Yeah, Kinesis are cool. I've had one for just a few months and although I'm no faster mostly because I was learning Dvorak, it's a lot more comfortable. I can barely stand using these ones now. I'm not totally convinced of Dvorak's superiority over QWERTY (well, I know QWERTY isn't better, but I don't think the difference is all that great) but Kinesis contoured are a lot better. On the other hand, if all you want is a standard Dvorak keyboard, you can just buy a QWERTY, change the layout in software and change the keys around. That'd be a lot cheaper.
I've found that having the mouse pointer and buttons integrated into the keyboard makes me much more efficient in today's GUIs. No more moving the hand to the mouse, then moving back to the keyboard. I like the IBM Trackpoint keyboards; there are other similar designs out there as well. The only downside I've found is that you'll want a mouse for image editing; the Trackpoint keyboards I've used let you attach a mouse to the keyboard so this is not a problem.
I have recently tried a Dvorak layout out.
I don't (quite) touchtype on Qwerty yet, but can type well enough to do my work.
A few point I'd like to mention:
1) Windows has great support for it, as does Linux - only thing is, in linux one has to set X and console seperatedly.
2) It is a better layout (for english), and I have started learning from scratch, this time forcing myself to touch-type.
3) One has to keep in mind that learning takes time: And switching keyboard types undermines the learning process - so only try this when you have time, and don't switch keyboards constantly.
4) When you are *have* to work on a Qwerty, and you really want to use Dvorak - why not just switch the keyboard configuration without swapping the actual keys? Since you will be touch-typing it won't matter! (In NT this is a quick setup - RedHat 6.0 was not as simple... had to hack)
Two points: 1) I'm not sure that most unix commands are optimised for any keyboard. I'm sure Dvorak offers less benefit for command lines than it does for English text, but I doubt it causes enough of a problem to make anyone stick with QWERTY if they were otherwise going to use Dvorak. 2) What you say about shorcuts etc. needing to be relearned may be true, but only if you already know them. If you don't, you might wan't to think about switching before you did. However, it is true that some things are in places that make no sense when you switch layouts. For example, the Windoze cut, copy and paste shortcuts are all over the place on Dvorak instead of right next to each other, and the directional keys in NetHack make no sense at all (although that's not much of a probleb unless you gon't have a numeric keypad - the one thing I don't like about Kinesis.
The cheapest I could find them was at https://secure.vscape.net/officeorganix/kenis1pr.h tm Just be glad you don't live in Europe. There's one place in the Netherlands, so I imported mine from the site above. Kinesis list suppliers on their site, and some have websites you can order from.
Thought about it once, but decided against it, for the simple reason that it would mess up vi's keystrokes. I've used vi for so long that it's as natural as touch typing (when I use MS notepad, I often type "jjjjjjj" when I want to move the caret down several lines - my wife wonders what the hell I'm doing). I could never switch to Dvorak for the simple reason that I would have to re-learn vi. The same applies to you Emacs users as well (C-x probably wouldn't be such a nice combo on Dvorak). Maybe you could somehow re-map your editor's keys (Emacs definitely can, it's vi I'm not sure about), though it would be a pain.
Hi all, I remember there was a time in which Apple tried to introduce Dvorak keyboards to the masses through the addition of a switch to my beloved Apple //c. Pushing the switch would conver thte unit to Dvorak mode, possibly ahead of its time. I for one am so used to QWERTY (as are millions of people) that it would be next to impossible to get us to switch.. Yeesh the type writer metaphor created the 'pushable' key in the first place. I highly doubt we'll see a change any time soon.
Look, these disputes aren't resolved by argumentation. The Fable of the keys cites studies, Brooks argues with the studies. The real test would be to do new studies instead of jawboning about one keyboard's superiority to another.
Well, I know I would have a very difficult time using a Dvorak keyboard, simply for the fact I've used QWERTY for about 10 years, and I know instinctivly where all the keys I want are. I'm not a bad typer, I get around 40-70wpm, depending on the circumstances (keyboard responsiveness for one, at home I type faster because my keyboard is a lot more 'clickety') I too find a marginal increase in speed if I look at my keyboard, but I think that may just be because I am more certain that way of which key I'm pressing. I much prefer to type without looking at the keyboard because it allows me to see what I'm typing and fix any mistakes as the occur. And I agree with the last reply, for things such as documentation, and listing, I type at a decent speed (for my needs) but when I'm programming I prefer to sit and think as I type, so I only get 20-30wpm unless I'm flying. zx75~GoW~
The truth is that Americans get by just fine with our system. You euros don't get by any "better" with metric.
To each his own, yes?
Speaking of Logitech and mouses/mice/whatever, check out the Logitech MouseMan Wheel. Four buttons (including the wheel, of course), and it's disgustingly egronomic to boot :)
The only problem is it's retail price: $50.
Most keyboards nowadays have little not notches on the f & j keys so you can feel them and align your fingers properly without having to look down.
irona
I do believe all the hype and I'm interested of trying Dvorak out, but are there any standard Dvorak layouts for the ones of us not in US? I really can't abandon my precious characters with rubbish on top of them. Yes, I could make my very own layout, but I'd prefer something which I can easily change to no matter where I am or what I'm using. Do I have hope?
Im again just posting to say I love Dvorak. Ive posted about htis a number of times so Ill make this one quick. Been using it for a year and a half, just because I like using what is best and makes the most logical sense. Im on qwerty right now touch typing slower, but typing without looking none the less. I do not understand why people use qwerty anymore.
I can't imagine playing nethack on a dvorak... (I use the "hjklyubn" keys)
Note that some keyboard's keys are different shapes and sizes. I had a no-name QWERTY Win95 keyboard on my 386, and re-arranging the keys caused them to not be level. Instead I made little stickers for each of the keys with a roll of masking tape (took me a while).
I have a Dvorak keyboard for sale. A guy in California manually reworked the keys on a Honeywell. It works perfectly. I am a computer teacher and cannot just walk up to any machine and expect to use Dvorak on it. It is very easy to switch in NT 4.0. To be clever, you can activate two key layouts using US-English for QWERTY and Carribbean English (or other English) with a Dvorak layout. This can leave an icon at bottom right of screen that you can click with the mouse to switch, or just use a key combination. Windows 9X also supports easy switching. I find the Dvorak much more comfortable than QWERTY. Unfortunately, even Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing Software has dropped Dvorak. But there is freeware to learn to use it!
I could type about 80-90 WPM before. My speed has been the same since I switched to Dvorak, but my accurary is much better. If you're a fairly fast typist, I probably wouldn't go through the bother of retraining without some problems typing on a QWERTY. The interesting thing, when you're in transition, is that when you have to type on a QWERTY, you feel like your fingers are flying all over the place because they have to move so much farther.
For programs that use adjacent keys for things like motion, such as vi, you just press different keys on the Dvorak layout. It's not strange once you're used to it. I thought it would be bothersome at first, but the only thing is that I have to find the little bump with my index finger because I never relabeled my keyboard. :)
i don't consider myself touch type, because i don't use the correct form (i.e. i don't always use the right fingers for each key, i don't sit down with my index fingers on F and J...). but i can type moderately fast, faster than most people i know. i think he meant that he could type quickly, but it wasn't the way you'd learn to if you took a typing course...it's just that he types so much he knows where every key is. if you switched to a different keyboard layout, you would be slower for at least a while (depending on how much you type...if you don't have to type a lot it might be weeks or months before you got up to speed). after that, i don't think it would really matter, actually. i guess you could design an efficiency-conscience keyboard by taking, for instance, the entire OED and figuring out which letters were most common, and then arranging them to minimize the amount of movement (so your index fingers would naturally go to E and T, with other common letters close by, eventually getting to X, Z, and other uncommonly used letters on the edges). but i don't think that it would really increase your speed much, unless you STARTED OUT on such a keyboard. the benefit of several years on a qwerty probably outweighs the better design of the keyboard... so yeah, i guess typing speed is more limited by hardware, not wetware...
Geesh. You people. I swear. Look at: http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/contspec.html Not only can you get dual-labeled qwerty/dvorak keyboards, but it comes on the finest keyboard *I* have ever used, and I've used a few. In one week of using one of these things, I went from 'ow, it hurts to type for more than 10 minutes' to 'What - 5000 lines already?' Highly recommended. And it only slowed me down for about a week while I learned it. Afterwards, I'd say I sped up by about half.
Sorry, something just made me chuckle when reading the following comment: "I bought mine for 70 bucks two years ago, and now I see that they're only 50 bucks. Well worth the investment." The word "investment" seems to refer to a $20 loss! "Dvorak keyboards are worth $0" Yes, I know what you really meant. ;)
"It works, everyone uses it, and it's a headache to learn a new system" Hmm, sounds like FUD from a certain software company about a certain operating system I know of. Doesn't seem like much of a reason to stay with the old system, IMHO. If one way works better, don't stay with the old way cuz you're used to it, if we all did that, most of us would still be using ::shudder:: Windows. Ew.
Having been insired by this article to give Dvorak a try, I just followed one of the links to get a print-out of the Dvorak layout, told Win95 that I had a Dvorak keyboard and started typing.
The first thing I noticed was that I was slow. That is something that would change with time though.
The second thing I noticed was that most of the words I was typing fell naturally to the 'home' position. In case you haven't noticed, most typing on a Qwerty keyboard requires real gymnastics of the fingers. Almost every word requires a stretch in one direction or another. Most of the mis-types I make as a use-taught (rather than tutor-taught) touch-typist are due to tired hands not stretching far enough.
I'm only 22, but already I get sore hands after a day of coding and report writing. The sooner I can get some speed up on this more-relaxed keyboard layout the better.
Duncan.
Fighting Ignorance since 1973!
I think that probably, the English language has changed to match the Qwerty keyboard.
Those words that are especially hard in it have been dropped, those that are easier have become more fasioinable.
Live languages change all the time, so this isn't really that surprising.
mo pralbem jhere!
Being blessed with a nerd father I learned to type simultaneously on Dvorak and Qwerty. I already knew some Qwerty, obviously, but couldn't type any faster than 20 WPM. As soon as I knew all the letters I began to leave the computer set on Dvorak. I could still type a little faster in Qwerty, but Dvorak *felt* much better (and I'm not referring to wrist strain or anything, which obviously wasn't an issue). Dvorak just feels a lot more natural.
:) Trust me, you'll be happier with your eyes on the screen rather than the keybard!
I do type significantly faster in Dvorak now, although I have probably used Qwerty keyboards as much as Dvorak. For me the issue wasn't speed, accuracy, or time to learn - I use Dvorak because it is less awkward. This factor is very hard to quantify, but nonetheless quite significant!
Some people have Qwerty too deeply ingrained to switch comfortably. If you are one of them, don't! The speed isn't really that important (unless you're a really fast thinker also). What's more important is what allows you to interface more naturally with your computer. When I type in Dvorak it feels like my fingers are dancing over the home row. Qwerty feels like playing twister!
Bottom line: give Dvorak a try for a month or two, and see what feels better after that period.
Nobody should care either way (except your poor aching wrists, hehe).
Another issue raised is that it is hard to acquire a Dvorak keyboard. I actually think it's a bad idea to have one. If you are relearning to type (even if you look at the keys now), it isn't hard to learn w/o seeing the keys. I found Mavis Beacon does an excellent job of teaching Dvorak - and it even runs under Wine (!). Another thing you can do is simply tape letters over your keyboard or buy a Dvoark overlay. Once again, I'd recommend against this - but you shouldn't need it long term. Let your fingers memorize the key positions, not your eyes. Think of it as a chance to start over w/ better typing technique
-Seth
If you would like to buy a hardwired keyboard check out Hard-Wired Keyboards.
Recently I got a Kinesis ergonomic keyboard that it hot swappable between qwerty and dvorak. It's also an ergo keyboard and the best peripheral for my computer I've ever bought. I highly recommend their contoured keyboards.
Something that you may want to keep in mind is that a lot of unix command line commands are optimized for qwerty, like ls, as well as emacs and vi.
Okay, the subject line will get me a wierd look to begin with. What I would really like to see is a one handed keyboard layout (based somewhere mid center on the keyboard). I often find myself typing with only one hand (more laughing from anyone reading this) Not just for that, but for mouse / coffee / anything else with my other hand. I find typing with one hand, either left or right, doesn't matter is possible with qwerty, but a pain in the butt. Real world example (without purchasing phone headset) say you are talking on the phone, you can try balancing it on your shoulder, which kind of works but leaves you totally lopsided and goes against all computer posture standards. Typing becomes labored, (ENTER ONE HANDED KEYBOARD LAYOUT) Right now im sitting with my feet on my desk, keyboard on knees and both hands typing, if I want to get a drink or call someone im stuck with a tough layout. (ENTER ONE HANDED KEYBOARD LAYOUT) Anyone know if such a keyboard setup exists? That would make my life quite simple.
Yes, there are keyboards with a "native" dvorak layout. There are also (or you can make) transparent stickers to put on the keys so you can see both the dvorak and qwerty meanings of the keys.
You can also often manually remove the keys from the keyboard and rearrange them. However, this is often not sensible, because the keys in modern keyboards have a contour that makes them only really fit their original place.
In any case, all of these are really not necessary, and could even be considered harmful. Dvorak, unlike qwerty, is designed for touch-typing. You aren't even supposed to look at the keyboard when typing. So when you don't see the letters anywhere, you are forced to learn them by heart. Yes, it's hell for a month or so, but then you get used to it pretty quickly.
As for the relative merits of dvorak, I recommend it heartily. Dvorak may not be the "perfect" keyboard layout, but at least it has a sensible idea behind it. The only merit of qwerty nowadays is that everyone knows it. This "merit" finds a convenient analogue from the software world in M$ products.
As for myself, I've been using dvorak for about two years now. It took me a couple of months to learn it acceptably fluently, and currently I get a bit over 70 wps. Then again, I didn't know qwerty touch-typing when I started, so I had less to unlearn. YMMV.
Hope this helps.
It's actually pretty easy to change the keyboard layout on Windows boxes (and you can do it all with the mouse, so you don't have to worry about finding the right keys ;-)
Get to the keyboard control panel, select the "Language" tab, and change the layout from 'United States' (or whatever it is) to 'United States-Dvorak' The keymap changes immediately..
Of course, it might be nice for someone to make a single-click systray application..
--
*shrug* I tend to consider those programs 'broken' since they don't understand arrow keys or anything (but it does suck when you come across them..)
Programs like that should not map directly to the assumed keyboard layout.. In the very least, there should be an easy way to change the settings..
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My mom has been a desktop publisher since I was born. When I was born, she took leave for 17 years to raise me, and practiced desktop publishing for the whole time. Eventually, she become so fast at typing, she was able to type over 200 wpm. We had wondered if she could break the world record, so we sat down at timed here. Continuously typing "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog." (followed by two spaces, and repeated) yieled a time of 227 wpm (over a period of 1 minute). We never really followed through with it because she was always so busy, she never had the time to attempt to break it officially. However, my World Record book was from 1991, so I'm unsure as to what the time is. She uses QWERTY and the proper hand layout. As for me, I never took a typing class, and my fingers have just memorized where all the keys are. Even though my hands are all over the keyboard hitting keys in unison, it never really looked that pretty. I can type about 90-100 wpm this style. I'm sorta scared to try DVORAK, b/c I have to use my school's computers and all.
A neat idea for DVORAK users, would be to create a small program that changes the registry value on the Windows 9x machines automatically. Just run the program, and go at it. This makes switching from one computer to the next easier. Also, maybe a thin, plastic cover that you could fit over standard win9x keyboards; however, this would be impossible because many keyboards come in wierd shapes. The latter idea isn't really needed because most DVORAK users would know where the keys are located and wouldn't have to look down.
Anyways, just thought ya'll would like to know that DVORAK isn't always the fastest...;) I doubt DVORAK would let her type 300 wpm...:) MmMmM...efficiency.
After reading a bit on how the dvorak layout reduces the amount of distance your fingers have to travel, I thought it might be a good idea to try and learn it.
However, after attempting to write code with a dvorak keyboard, I switched right back over. While the placement of such keys as "{};&>.[]+=-*%!" is not exactly optimal on a qwerty keyboard, they are much easier to hit on qwerty than dvorak.
Unix commands which aren't necessarily english also seem to be easier to type on qwerty for some reason ls, ps, pwd, chgrp, ftp, etc...
Hopefully keyboards will be outdated by some decent voice recognition software or human neural interface before my hands cramp up and die from all the typing I do.
--
The world is neither black nor white nor good nor evil, only many shades of CowboyNeal.
On my 1984 Apple //c it's even easier. There's a button on the keyboard to switch back and forth (it's hardware-based...when you switch to Dvorak, the key labeled "s" now sends a "o" charcode, "d" sends an "e" charcode and so on with the other keys).
If modern computer were like that, it'd be nice. That way, I could learn Dvorak and completely forget QWERTY, and if I wanted to use a public terminal or a friend's computer, I'd just press the button to switch, and toggle back when I was done. Unfortunately, modern computers aren't as good as my Apple =)
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
The other problem is that those xmodmap solutions don't do you a bit of good on the console screen.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
I don't have any hand injuries but I have noticed the difference.
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com
check out the contour
Yes! Dvorak layout is a COMMUNIST conspiracy to replace us from the God-given QWERTY layout, which is what the ancient biblical scribes used to record the Word to paper in the first place.
Once they convert us over to Dvorak, then there's nothing to stop them from changing over to Metric, free software, the French language, and Godless communism!
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Dvorak makes a dog's breakfast out of your vi command layout. For starters, hjkl movement keys end up scrambled.
An alternate keyboard layout might be manageable for people who only type text, but more difficult for users who use keyboard driven programs. Part of the problem is that when you type commands in a program like vi, you don't think of the letter that you are typing. When I want the cursor to go up, I just do it, I don't think ``okay, going up means letter K''. The motivation to move the cursor automatically translates to the right key. I suspect that even if I learned to type words instinctively on a Dvorak keyboard, I would still be tripped up when it came to editor commands.
Yes, it is true that the hammers ultimately hit at the same place. However, a jam occurs before the hammers actually strike the paper. Those hammers that are close together are more likely to jam because of the acute angle between their paths. There is simply more opportunity for them to hit each other. Hammers that are far apart have a much smaller opportunity for jamming, since their paths intersect much more obliquely. Get it? When I was a child I would play with these typewriters, trying to see under circumstances I could produce a jam. I distinctly remember that it was far easier to produce a jam by simultaneously, or nearly simultaneously, striking keys whose hammers are close together than to produce a jam using keys that are far apart. The timing had to be much tighter. You could type an alternating sequence of letters far apart very quickly without jamming, but not so for letters close together. So distribution obviously matters.
From what I understand, QWERTY was supposedly designed to prevent jamming, not necessarily to slow typists down. Or perhaps to maximize speed while minizming jamming. The left to right hand alternation actually helps your speed---or so I have seen it argued in the Dvorak-vs-QWERTY articles that have been linked from /.
The problems on old typewriters occur when you strike two keys that are in close proximity at about the same time; that's when the type heads get all stuck together. So it's not entirely about speed but about how the strokes are physically distributed. It's not hard to see that a design which distributes the load to prevent jamming could also have a beneficial effect on typing efficiency.
Go to FOLDOC, and look up the term ``race condition''.
xmodmap
Don't know if it helps, you probably got it fixed by now.
When you don't know where any of the keys are, cut and paste is your friend ;-)
People know QWERTY and are comfortable with it. It's not the best out there but it works for most people. The cost of retraining all those touch typists out there would be astronomical. If a switch were made what would happen in the transition period? Would each console have two keyboards?
Just because a "better" way is developed isn't allways enough if the "old" way works passibly well.
In The Design/Psychology of Everyday Things Don Norman does a comparison of various keyboard types including qwerty, Dvorak and Chorded keyboards. Most, if not all of the alternatives rate higher than qwerty in terms of typing speed and training.
Norman also points out that no matter how good a new kind of keyboard is, it will never replace the standard qwerty style. It would simply cost too much money. Retraining users, replacing hardware, rewriting software (in some cases), rewriting documentation etc. It all adds up. There are similar reasons why the metric systems hasn't been adopted world wide.
Also, how much more efficient does a keyboard have to be to justify a change in keys? IMHO, the qwerty keyboard is good enough. I look forward to the day when I don't have to tap away on this anymore. Bring on what-you-see-is-what-you-think!- --------------------------------------
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my blog: good times, man, good times
If two layouts are somewhat similar, they *can* slow you down and increase your error rate. For two or three years, I used both German and U.S. layouts (where maybe six or eight letter/punctuation keys are different, as i remember) on different machines. They slowed me down a bit and i would make certain types of errors in both systems.
Similarly, i have toggled to and from environments where i had to use either the IBM or Mac layouts for Arabic. They're about forty percent different for letters and frequent diacritics. The confusion between the two and constant quick thinking about where such and such a key is on the system i was using meant that i never really got fast typing in Arabic. I tell you this as someone who actually was in a typing competition in high school!
I imagine that this is much less of a problem when the layouts are *very* different, as might be the case with QWERTY and DVORAK.
You raise a good point (which keyboard would be better *specifically for programming*). Dvorak keyboards were designed with the most common letters on the home row, and the common vowels on one hand and common consonants on the other (to encourage alternation). But a number of the common Unix commands were shortened (to reduce typing and teletype ribbon consumption :-) by removing the vowels. On the Dvorak keyboard, this would eliminating the use of one hand's home row altogether.
... (think cd, cp, ls, bc, mv, rm, gcc, gdb, ftp, etc).
Therefore I would suspect that using a Dvorak keyboard to type at a shell prompt might not buy you much
(This isn't to say that I don't believe in the Dvorak keyboard... I only tried it once, when I knew the Qwerty layout and was moderately fast but not a speed daemon-- by remapping my Commodore 64 keyboard of all things!-- and within a few few hours I had my Dvorak speed up to my Qwerty speed or better. But at the present time I switch between systems too often to want to try Dvorak again).
Didn't we just see a huge article describing exactly the level of bullshit on the meter about this dvorak stuff? I've got a bunch of friends who have gone to dvorak, and none of them have shown much improvement over qwerty that I can see.
The benefits of Dvorak keyboards are in a position similar to that of Linux's reliability: the best evidence is anecdotal.
/feels/ more natural and more comfortable. It is certainly better than the "Natural Keyboard". Also, I was able to learn dvorak to get up to my normal (90 wpm) speed in about 4 weeks.
Let me add to the pile of anecdotal evidence. A year ago, I came down with carpal tunnel syndrom. Not wanting to become unemployed, I took a number of drastic actions, including learning to type dvorak and getting Dvorak keyboards for all my computer (I'm sorry, but keycaps suck, especially since Windoze NT doesn't activate your keymap until you are logged in).
My Carpal got better.
Two months ago, I took the leap, became radically overpayed and inredibly worthless, and started consulting. My main client does not really allow for me to use an alternate keyboard without a lot of stress.
My carpal is back.
I know, I know, that's not conclusive. But I will tell you that typing Dvorak
Give it a try -- if you don't like, all ou've lost is an xmodmap command! If you do like it, you've saved your wrists.
-- Slashdot sucks.
How do you like that for a lock-in?
I think that the Dvorak layout is more comfortable. I've been using it on a Kinesis Classic QD for over a year now and every time I type on a qwerty keyboard I notice how annoying it was. I really doubt my speed has increased much. I'm certainly not any slower.
Deja Vu: Most recent Slashdot article.
--I hate people when they're not polite -"Psycho Killer", Talking Heads
I read somewhere that the QWERTY keyboard is designed the way it is because typewriter salesmen could type the word "typewriter" using only the letters on the first row of the keyboard. Is there any truth to this?
I fully agree with petrov's assessment. I tried out dvorak a while back. I was able to type decently after only a few days, but switching back and forth was tough. I code for a living, and often have to use QA's keyboards, so it was particularly difficult. And I think QA woulda killed me if they couldn't type on my machine :)
Citizens Against Plate Tectonics
Which has a funny coincidence with the net's most popular reason for typing one-handed :)
Citizens Against Plate Tectonics
The QWERTY layout was designed to put letters that are often adjacent in English words under opposite hands (or something remarkably like that; I am not a typewriter historian). This was necessary to prevent the jamming that happens when you type two adjacent characters on a manual typewriter: the little arms try to go on near-congruent paths to the same point, failing miserably, causing you to get typewriter ink on your nice cuffs when you unstick them. This had the effect of allowing much faster typing without jamming, and much faster typing period because so many common words and syllables were now typed with alternating hands.
Mr Dvorak's own studies found his layout to be a great improvement over QWERTY. I don't buy it, myself - it seems to me that the QWERTY layout is near optimal for English, people are used to it, it's not a bad deal. I'm sticking with it.
-- Jeff Paulsen
I use a Contured Kinesis keyboard set to use the Dvorak layout. I still use QWERTY on my flat keyboards. That has allowed me to switch easily between the two. The keystrokes are different on the Kinesis, so I just intuitively know that I should use the Dvorak layout. Sure, it took me a couple months to get up to speed on it and I wouldn't say that I'm any faster on it than I was on QWERTY, but it just seems more logical. It also helps that the Kinesis has both the QWERTY and Dvorak legends on the keys. . .
Another poster commented that programming on it is a pain. That was my first thought too, but after a couple months I got used to it. The period and quotes are in a much more logical place and I think I use those more often than {} anyway.
Finally, I think most unix commands got their esoteric names based purely on the QWERTY keyboard (like ls which is two home row strokes on opposet hands, but not that easy on the Dvorak). Good keyboards let you remap anyway, and there are always aliases.
-"Zow"
NO. it was arranged such that we can type QWERTY really fast while discussing this same old crap over and over... sheesh QWERTY is a bit slower inherantly but they are ubiquitous... switch to DVORAK if you want... see if i care!
80 words a minute and you aren't touch? I would have to say that is an all out lie, but you never know.. Logistically, your mind would have to be working pretty hard to concentrate on what you were type and looking for the right keys to press at the same time.
And it is all personal preference. I have seen reports that say dvorak is no faster, if not slower, than qwerty. Then again, I have also seen reports that say NT is more stable than Linux.
Those who seem to type way faster using dvorak keyboards are probably like that because they were fast on qwerty already, but then read about this amazing dvorak thing and worked really hard at getting good at that. It has more to do with personal drive than the keyboard layout in this situation.
Not to mention the fact that you have to take into consideration which keys that you press most often (I am talking about vocabulary and such).
If you want to type fast, go to a swap meet and find the clickiest, most responsive keyboard you can find.
And I would like to take this chance to say that Slashdot has seen this discussion about 150 times already. Too bad slashdot is not accumulative knowledge wise. I bet you could find this whole discussion already done with in the archives if you simply typed 'dvorak keyboard' into the little search field. Save Ask Slashdot for real, unanswered questions.
-- DrZaius - Minister of Sciences and Protector of the Faith
"Even genius needs a competent technique."--Robert Fripp
If you take away all the effort needed to press the keys, I think you can easily double the speed.
<brag> Oh... and I can touch-type at about 100-120WPM. </brag>
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- My typing speed didn't noticably improve. I was pretty fast on qwerty, and I'm pretty fast on dvorak.
- My hands don't bother me (RSI stuff) as much when I use dvorak, I think it's cause I'm not stretching all over the keyboard
- if you are in an environment where you are using other peoples boxen (e.g. sysadmin stuff in Windows shop, or university comp labs), then it's a pain until you learn both (which surprisingly took me a good bit longer than just switching)
- It's pretty easy to pop the keys off a normal keyboard and rearrange them in a dvorak arrangement. for an ergo keyboard, you'll need to use stickers or paint.
- It's next to impossible to login (as you can't see your password) with the keyboard set to the wrong setting
- it only took about 2 weeks to forget qwerty and be good on dvorak. it took about 4 months to be comfortable using both,
:-( it's like speaking two languages, it just takes a mind shift when you sit down.
bottom line: if you use your own workstation exclusively, then switch. If you have to hop machines, then stick with Qwerty.--sam
--sam
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
Do the search, follow the links, read the making of the myths. Like the man says, it's learning to type that does the trick in a switchover, not the keyboard itself. The horse is dead, flesh is stripped, bones have been pulverized, all that's left is the urban legend.
--
Infuriate left and right
If you're really interested in either increasing typing speed or decreasing typing injury (they're intrinsically linked) you should look into other kinds of keyboards.
My personal favorite (except for the cost, of course) is the DataHand which significantly decreases finger travel distance as well as pressure you need to apply. (those things will help you type faster.) It also lets you keep your wrists straight, which will help to reduce injury.
The DataHand is primarily designed to reduce injury, but once you learn it well, you'll be able to type faster; mostly due to shorter finger travel distance.
It's designed with an almost QWERTY layout, but you can always set it up as Dvorak and stick little notes onto the template (I think they'll even sell it to you with a Dvorak template.) The built in "mouse" is okay for cut-n-paste, but I'd suggest using it in addition to another pointing device (I prefer trackballs -- less arm movement required, even if they do suck for quake) (you can do this with GPM, under Linux) for when you're doing more mouse-intensive activities. (Like netscape)
If you're a computer programmer (like myself) and something like that could lengthen your career by one month, the cost is worth it. It's more likely to increase a career by, at least, several years.
Try out imwheel. http://solaris1.mysolution.com/~jcatk i/imwheel/
Free Mac Mini. Yes, I'm
One reason that I prefer qwerty is that I can move my fingers to widely varying parts of the keyboard frequently.
With Dvorak, which I have tried briefly, I barely seems to move my hands sometimes.
Now with RSI, isn't it supposed to be worse if you don't vary what you're doing as much? With QWERTY I find that movement is constant.
Please send them a mail and tell them what we want, or we will never be able to buy one.
A friend of mine is a convert and he runs an NT network (and hates it). The domain controller/fileserver with 20+ gigs of NTFS raid 0 disk in it had both qwerty and dvorak keyboard layouts set up on it. His clueless boss needed to log in after the screen was locked so he pressed ctrl-alt-delete, typed in the domain administrators password. Wrong password. Mmmm. Try again. Nope still wrong password. Try really carefully. Wrong password. Machines obviously fallen over. Switch off, switch back on again.... Wait nearly an hour and a half for chkdsk to finish and still have no clue as to what went wrong.
BTW I also use dvorak after having learned to touch type qwerty at high school. Using dvorak in the hunt and peck style (even if it is really fast) is a total waste of time, you may as well be using qwerty. As previous posters have said, dvorak just feels better and IMHO seems to put less strain on wrists and hands.
Nerd: Derogatory term typically directed at anybody with a lower Slashdot ID than you.
I also spend a lot of time working on other peoples computers and still constantly (just yesterday) get comments on how fast my typing is. (although admitably my DVORAK isn't *that* much faster, it's more a comfort thing; I've been on DVORAK for almost a year)
Essentially I have an acer ergo keyboard that I set as DVORAK (don't worry about the keys! How often do you look at your keys in qwerty? Also when learning to type don't you remeber continually getting scolded for looking at the keys? Just attach a dvorak diagram to the monitor while your learning, take it off after a couple weeks!)
My qwerty on this keyboard is slower than a cheetah; who lost it's legs. It's slightly anoying when I boot back to dos, but at that point I just look at the keys. Other than that I'm always in DVORAK. When I go to someone else's standard keyboard (or even an ms-ergo keyboard) QWERTY still comes totally naturally.
I tried dvorak for 2 1/2 months. I tracked my speed. (I type average 95-100wpm on qwerty, and when I really try on a good keyboard, I can average about 110wpm. My burst record is 131 wpm for 200 characters. Slower than two friends of mine still. Yes, I want more speed! Avoiding a mouse speeds me up for raw input speed anyway.
.xinitrc ;)
Who the hell needs to type much faster unless they're data entry people or write more email than they should? I dont know anyone who writes verbose long unix pipes faster than they can type: mebbe they should use shorter pipes. And for coders, I really doubt that you can code at a constant 110wpm! If you can, we have a job for you.)
Dvorak rates for my conversion effort:
end of 1st day: 7 wpm (what a hellish day)
end 1st week: 22wpm
end 2nd week: 31wpm
end 3rd week: 38wpm
end 4th week: 43wpm
end 5th week: 46wpm
end 6th week: 48wpm
end 7th week: 49wpm
end 8th week: 50wpm
end 9th week: 50wpm
end 10th week: 51wpm
I couldnt handle it anymore, and kept on naturally 'forgetting' to put my machine into dvorak mode (i was lazy and never setup my
Eventually I gave up because I was only at half my rate. Mebbe I just cant learn anything new cuz I've been typing qwerty for the last 19 years on computers and Im an old dog.
Im happy with qwerty I guess, at 100-110wpm, for the most part. I wish there was something that would net me something more like 300-500wpm, but I think we'd have to move away from fingers. Mebbe not: I think keyboard chords would be better, but would be far harder to learn.
Mathboy.
--
"Sometimes two [harmless] words, when put together, strike fear in the hearts of men -- Microsoft Wallet." - Dave Gilbert
stewardesses
;-)
Don't ask me where I found that out... I have no idea.
BTW my opinion on dvorak vs. qwerty is this : LEAVE ME ALONE!!! I JUST LEARNED QWERTY!!!
- 8Complex
I have looked around for a few years and have yet to come across an AT or PS/2 compatible keyboard with the DVORAK layout.
Personally, I think as long as you type well now on a QWERTY keyboard, a DVORAK keyboard should provide a bit of difficulty to start out. But once you are used to it, then switching back and forth should be a minor change when typing. The main problem I see though is not being able to use the DVORAK layout on a laptop easially. I use my laptop more then I use a desktop computer anymore, and I don't feel like pulling of all the keys, rearranging them, then figuring out a way to remap the keys under Windows and Linux.
-----
It's relatively easy just to build your own, i did this to an old AT keyboard. I just took a screwdriver and followed the keymap on: http://www.cs.brown.edu/~scs/dv.html from there (in win95) i just set it to dvorak, and i was on my way. I only used it like this for a week, because i was painfully slow on it (because i had never used it before), and i switched back because the rest of the world is QWERTY. I have to go to school and use their keyboards, my dad, my sister, my grandparents, my friends, they're all qwerty. There's no sense in having to learn/know 2 different keyboard layouts. It's much easier to use 1.
All you do is pop off the keys and arrange them in the dvorak pattern. Then you have to remap all the keys in your operating system - this would involve a different process depending on what operating system you use. I might be mistaken because I've never tried, but I was under the impression that it is rather trivial to do this in Windows, look around you may even find some software that'll give you schematic and remap the keys for you.
/. not too long ago about it, some say it's highly overrated, stating that true results are only a mere fraction better than Qwerty in most people. If you're already used to Qwerty, you would probably never reach your potential on a Dvorak keyboard because you'd be fighting the conditioning you already have.
:) So I'm not gonna gobble the hype.
Now, as for the benifits of the Dvorak keyboard: opinions are very mixed. I believe there were debates here on
Myself... I've never had the desire to type faster because I'd just end up making mistakes more quickly
"I love the smell of a burnt CPU in the morning"
The console already supports keyboard remapping; check out "loadkeys", and the keymaps dir named in its man page. My Redhat box came with a few dvorak files: normal, one-handed (one for left-handed, one for right-handed), and the changes for ANSI's stacked braces/brackets. I haven't tried the dvorak layout with it, but Emacs was much happier after I "fixed" meta handling. :-)
Forget making an alias, there's an even easier way -- map it to an Fkey. I'll try to dig up my old .Xmodmap file, but it comes down to this: make two functions in the file, one to set QWERTY keycaps and one to set Dvorak keycaps, and assign them to two Fkeys (say, F11 & F12). (Or, if you prefer a toggle, assign one to a single Fkey, and have each function assign the other to the Fkey as part of the remapping.) That way, you don't need to be in a shell to change between the two.
Ask Slashdot: Has anyone seen where I left my glasses?
For a review of research on the QUERTY and DVORAK keyboards, and the more recent improved design by Lillian G. Malt, see:
http://www.teleprint.com/keyboard/history.html
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler. -Albert Einstein
This is offtopic, but...
When you are programming or writing configuration files, vi(m) is *much* faster - and when you are used to it, easier to do those things that programmers and admin need to do.
PICO is not a satisfactory solution in these situations.
Remapping the vi mode commands would work fine though (although those semantic mappings like 'r' are lost, an experienced user doesn't need them).
--
I've heard so many things on QWERTY vs DVORAK that I don't know what is real. Some say that the story about QWERTY being designed to slow typists down is a urban myth, some say that DVORAK has *really* helped them increase their speed. In any case, it doesn't matter these days unless you want to be different.
As for DVORAK manufacturers, here is what I have seen: Northgate used to make the really nice OmniKey keyboards that had a dipswitch that could switch between DVORAK and conventional QWERTY layouts. Unfortunately they supposedly went under several years ago. (Does anyone have the details, exact date, etc?) If you look hard you can find used Northgate keyboards around.
As for speed, most people these days do not need to type 100 million wpm at the typewriter. Most of the time I write a couple of lines of code, examine what I'm doing, then continue writing. Sometimes I get into those coding frenzies where I just can't type fast enough, but I rarely forget what I'm trying to type.
And the ultimate question: What the heck do you do to move around in vi? hjkl are right under the hand in QWERTY style, I'd hate to have my fingers dance around when moving around a document in vi.
_ _ _
I found Kinesis Ergo somehow a few years back (I don't really remember where or why) has been making probably the most advanced keyboards I've seen in a while. A totally cross platform design with Mac/PC/Sun support that allows switching on the flying between most major keysets, including Dvorak and Qwerty I have been using a qwerty keyboard for about 12 years now, since I was 6 or 7 years old. I naturally adapted to touch typing with it and now I can type a sustained 120wpm on it. I still have yet to try a Dvorak keyboard layout because I haven't had a need -- I type more than fast enough, and typically when I'm programming I don't hit my peak 120wpm just because I'm either thinking while I'm typing or the key combo's are virtually impossible to hit while I'm speeding along. My peak recorded speed has been at 144wpm, without falling below 90% accuracy. The QWERTY Vs. Dvorak debate seems to me to just be a simple case of personal preference -- while the Dvorak is a superior layout design (15% more efficient) it's mostly due to the person controlling it. Thank you, total is $0.02, pay at the first window.
-= Making the world a better place =-
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
My friend is a master of dvorak, I pale when I see how fast he can type. He dosen't seem to have any problem switching back and forth, either. He explains that it's just like learning another language. Maybe he's just good at it tho.
,reverse qq;):zrekcahzlrepzrehtonaztey; );"
I know they do make dvorak keyboards, I've seen them on sale, but only at surplus stores.
- Paradox
Man of the C!!!
perl -e "print join q( ), split(q.z.
Slashdot. It's Not For Common Sense
Second, there have been no conclusive studies that Dvorak typists are any faster than QWERTY typists. The article at http://www.reasonmag.com/9606/Fe.QWERT Y.html gives a reasonably good summary of the non-evidence of Dvorak superiority.
Lastly, my personal experience is that a friend who has switched to Dvorak said "It's a nightmare of pain relearning a new layout for no benefit whatsoever. Go ahead and learn Dvorak if you don't know how to type, but don't go through the psychic trauma of rewiring your fingers if you already are using QWERTY. Its not worth it."
Anyway. Use whatever keyboard makes you happy.
Peter
I actually switch hit between Dvorak and Qwerty. I've been a Qwerty touch typist for about 18 years, and a Dvorak touch typist for about 1.5 years. Surprise, surprise, I'm actually faster with Qwerty! :-) BUT... I'm about 90%+ as fast with Dvorak, and either Dv or switching back and forth has resulted in greatly increased comfort in my hands and wrists.
:-)
I also switch mouse and trackball, left-hand and right-hand. (Sanity hint: Don't mess with the mapping of your mouse buttons, just use the default right-handed config.) I'm the most ambidextrous PC user I know!
By the same argument you use to defend QWERTY, everyone should stick with Microsoft because...
It works, everyone uses it, and it is a headache to learn a new system for a mere 4 LCPD (less crashes per day).
Conclusion: Just stick with Microsoft!
Just as a lark, a year or two ago, I taught myself Dvorak. After a few months, I was as comfortable with Dvorak as with Qwerty (as others have mentioned, the only really tough part is re-learning the control keystrokes for vi, menu item selection, etc). Now I use the Dvorak keymap under Windows NT at work, and the Qwerty keymap under BeOS at home. I type about the same speed in both keymaps, but there are other advantages to knowing Dvorak:
- It keeps your co-workers from messing with your computer. "Hey, your keyboard's broken! It's typing gibberish!"
- It makes it really easy to choose hard-to-crack passwords. Just choose a relatively "easy" password, but type it in using the "wrong" keymap.
- Impresses the girls at parties. (oh, okay, I lied on that one)
One other thing I noticed is that there is some kind of low-level link in my mind between the desktop I see on the screen, and what my fingers will type. Previously had two NT systems, one using Qwerty and one with Dvorak, and I was forever using the wrong keymap and ending up with random characters. But now that I've segregated my keymaps to coincide with the OS (NT=Dvorak, BeOS=Qwerty), there's no problem. Hmmm...
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
The thing about it is that learning Dvorak and keeping your QWERTY skills must be weird. After a while, you would probably make lots of mistakes
when you went back to a QWERTY, which you will find almost everywhere.
Now that you mention it, that's absolutely true. For a few weeks at the end of my Dvorak learning curve, there was a period where I couldn't type well in either Dvorak *or* Qwerty (this after having been doing 80WPM on Qwerty for years). I kept switching back and forth between keymaps in the middle of sentences (usually after an 'a' or an 'm' character, which are the same in both keymaps). After a while though, my brain managed to get both mappings sorted properly again. What's striking is that this is *exactly* how a neural net behaves when you give it a new data set... more evidence as to how my brain is implemented, I think...
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
I ordered the same model from Safe Computing for $236.25.
Safe Computing's site presents the various models with the same image and description (no info on the differences), so you should know the model you want in advance.
I am considering trying it out :)
;-)
The worst keyboard that I ever used has to be something made by Keytronic.
The tips of my fingers hurt for several days after I used it. And my friend claimed he loved it, I suspected otherwise
Anyways, I want to try this layout out as well. I already type 80 wpm (and can type "broadcast all We're going down!" "clear station xxxx" even faster;-).
Now if I could only find a keyboard to mess with, all I have is MS Natural Elites here.
--
Leonid S. Knyshov
Network Administrator
Leonid S. Knyshov
Find me on Quora
I understand that if you're frequently typing at much more than 50wpm on a regular qwerty keyboard, you run the risk of some stress based injury.
Assume using a Dvorak keyboard does let you increase your typing rate. Is the risk of RSI or similar, increased, because of the increased speed, or decreased, because of the more efficient key layout?
Hope that makes sense.
Richard
--
Quantum Linux Laboratories - Accelerating Business with Linux
* Education
* Enterprise Integration
* Support
*Condense fact from the vapor of nuance*
I use the following commandline, which should work on any system running XFree86 3.3.3.1 or better (may work with older versions, I dunno):
/usr/X11R6/bin/setxkbmap -symbols 'en_US(pc_universal_nodeadkeys)+dvorak'
IIRC, this works out-of-the-box and lets you use the RWIN key (assuming you have a 105-key keyboard) as a 'compose' key: all accented characters can be typed using the compose key and a combination of two letters (a + " => ä).
It may not be a more ergonomic solution if you type in a language other than English, but if you type mostly in English and use other characters only sparingly (like I do, typing occasionally in Spanish AND French), it's a great general solution...
Well, I was in the same situation a year ago. I'd been programming and doing other typing for years and years, and never learned to touch type. I TRIED! I took a class, practised, and never got it. Every time it came time to do some serious typing, I'd go back to looking at the keyboard.
Switching to Dvorak had several advantages, one of which is that the labels on my keycaps where now incorrect, so it didn't do me any good to look at the keyboard. Another is that it really is easier to learn! With Dvorak, you don't have to be typing some asdfjkl; garbage to be useing and learning the home row, and that alone makes all the differance in the world.
The advantages that I have found in finally learning to touch type (by whatever means neccessary) are mainly in accuracy and speed. No matter how fast you are with a hunt and peck technique (I used the three major fingers on both hands, and was faster than most people's touchtyping) you WILL be faster, make fewer errors, and (since you are looking at the screen) you will correct the errors that you do make much quicker.
Having been in your situation, I found learning to be most worthwhile.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
I use Dvorak because, as several people have
commented, it reduces strain dramatically.
Also, I have to add my enthusiastic support for
the Kinesis Ergonomic keyboards. Awesome boards;
I have about three.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
x.jago. ru ydco apycjn. c o,cyjd.e yr ekrpat abe C nrk. cy!!! ,acyv :) smily faces will take awhile to get used to in dvorakvvv heh heh... S)
rdw
ahem.
because of this article I have switched to dvorak and actually really like it!!!
but, one has to wonder what my parents will say when they see I wrote the dvorak keymap right onto my keyboard. UH OH!!!
heheheheheheh...
If you think you know what the hell is going on you're probably full of shit. -- Robert Anton Wilson
jdube is who
I learned how to use a dvorak keyboard out of boredom about two years ago. Almost all modern operating systems have hooks in place to use a software dvorak layout (so you can use a standard qwerty keyboard).
Affix a little post-it note to the side of your monitor with the keyboard layout so you don't have to waste any valuable screen real-estate on a graphical map. You can paste some keytops onto your keyboard, but IMHO there's no real point. The keys are supposed to be under your fingers, and well out of sight.
If you ask anyone who's used qwerty, then dvorak... they'll tell you its like riding a bicycle. You never forget qwerty, so you really don't have to worry about that. You may get rusty with time, however.... I generally use dvorak in linux (where I spend most of my time) and type qwerty in WinFro.
loadkeys can change your console keyboard layout, and setxkbmap can change your x11 keyboard layout.
I typo (hehe) at approximately the same speed in both qwerty and dvorak, but I can type much more comfortably and longer with a dvorak keyboard. I read somewhere that about 70% of your keystrokes are on the home row(pretty good cache hit ratio for you asm programmers). I havn't tried anything statistical, but it feels pretty close to the truth.
for more information, check out Dvorak International.
Don't listen to the naysayers till they actually have something constructive to say.
We all know that Dvorak was the one who published the great results about the Dvorak keyboard. Of course the results were biased. But that doesn't mean it's a worse keyboard.
You have only to look at a QWERTY keyboard to see that it was not designed to be easy. Notice that you can type "typewriter" using only keys on the top row. You think that is a coincidence? Also, see how many words you can type on the home row with QWERTY. Not many. How many with Dvorak (it's aoeuidhtns for those who don't know).
I have never heard of anyone who learned Dvorak "properly" who regretted the change, myself included.
Studies? We don't need no steeenking studies.
...is to buy a keyboard that can do both.
Kinesis keyboards (http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/) sells them. All you have to do is execute a three button keystroke and the keyboard automatically remaps itself from Qwerty to Dvorak and vice-versa.
I recently bought the Classic QD model and am very happy with its performance. Originally it was purchased with the thought of learning Dvorak, but my Qwerty typing improved so greatly that I've stuck with it. The keys seem so much closer to your fingers and there is rarely that uncomfortable stretching trying to hit those hard to reach keys. I really didn't see the point in going to Dvorak after seeing the improvement just from the new keyboard. Maybe someday I'll brave it...
If you don't mind spending the money and getting past the initial week learning curve, this is definitely the way to go.
A personal observation, based on my music background (viola, bass and piano). It's a lot easier to play a sequence of notes using multiple fingers on a single hand than single fingers on alternating hands.
I think it's a synchronization thing. Try drumming the finger tips of one hand on a table top. Now try alternating hands, tapping one finger with one, one finger on the other, etc. It can be done, but the average person is more likely to trip up and tap fingers on two hands at once.
So, while I do agree with the hammer-jamming reason, I don't agree with your speed through alternating hands conclusion. YMMV, as always, and I do agree that it would be an extreme hassle to relearn a different layout after using QWERTY for so long.
--The more you know, the less you know.
beyond.com has a keyboard that can switch between Dvorak and QWERTY, and comes with typing software to learn Dvorak.. for only $36
Another one for $49 at PC Connection
a pretty wild looking one.. "Comfort Keyboard System", which is available in dvorak, qwerty, sun and mac (Sun Qwerty? Wild!)
As a dvorak typist, I can attest to the benefits of this layout. Though there is some hastle using other peoples' computers b/c of not knowing qwerty, I must say that it's still worth it. I have never known qwerty; I learned dvorak as my 'first language' at the age of 10. Though it's been a while since then and I can't be sure, I would estimate that it took about 2 months of practicing about a half hour a day to be able to type 40-50 wpm. Now (I don't practice, only type when there's a reason to) I type about 80wpm with very few errors. My main reason for continuing to use the dvorak keyboard is because I'm not interested in RSI or carpal tunnel syndrome, which both my parents had to have surgery for.
To address Cliff's query diretly, YES, DVORAK keyboards are available. DvortyBoards makes a keyboard that is hard-wired for both dvorak and qwerty. The keyboard I use is from their company, though it's an older model. It is a MS Natural-esque keyboard with a rocker switch to switch from dvorak to qwerty. The newer model has an extra key (actually, it's borrowed from one of the legacy keys though I can't remember which one) that switches.
For those of you using linux, this keyboard is an excellent choice. There is no need to mess with keysym files, set up bash (csh, tsch, sh, etc.) and X separately, just hit the toggle key.
For windows users, no need to screw around with the control panels or bitch at MS when you use a dos app (dos requires a separate driver, and MS didn't think to trap keyboard events and convert to the appropriate keyboard layout before passing the key to the dos app, so all of dos is in qwerty).
I'd cite statistics / etc. to show that dvorak is the superior layout but statistics can be so easily argued, so I'll just say that only a few thousand words can be typed on the qwerty keyboard without moving fingers to the top or bottom rows. With dvorak, over 30,000 words can be typed without moving the hands.
High-speed Road Trip (18.000KPH)
I echo the above sentiment that the best thing to do is to try it, and find out if you like it. It will take some time. I have been typing on a Dvorak board for five years or so, and I love it. I'm still as s-l-o-w as I was on a Qwerty. I never learned to type on a Querty, and really, the Dvorak keyboard feels so natural to me, as far as layout, that I didn't have to 'learn' how to touch type. It just came naturally. I haven't clocked myself, but I'd guess I tripled my productivity. It's hard to quantify the pain and suffering aspect, as I don't have any RSI, but read some material on the layout; it makes sense that you won't get it as bad/as soon because of the way the home row is arranged.
I am a very strong advocate of the Dvorak layout, but as I alluded to before, it's not for everyone. If you're an IT type and have to mess with 50 different keyboards a day, it's probably not worth the time. I rarely have to type on other keyboards than my own, so I benefitted greatly at work and at home from switching.
And finally, you need to know where to get one. The one I have I got here:
http://www.dvorty.com
I love it. It's hard-wired, and has a Dvorak - Qwerty toggle key so you can switch on the fly any time you want. It's completely hardware driven and works on ANY computer you can plug it into. It's great for multi-user households. I bought mine for 70 bucks two years ago, and now I see that they're only 50 bucks. Well worth the investment.
If you're still not sure, pop the keys off your keyboard, rearrange them and find an xmodmap file to remap your keys. Try it out for about a month. I was admittedly pretty lame at typing before I started with Dvorak, but it took me about two weeks of medium use to get up to the same speed, and another week or two to blow my old speed away.
-mattyj@cts.com
What if I have a UK QWERTY keyboard?
it's about time we didn't even need keyboards. who wants to use their fingers to write text all the time anyway.
The Dvorrak vs. QWERTY case reminds me of the VHS vs Betamax case. It's not necessarily the best that wins, it's what gets the support at the end of the day. I feel that if I start to adapt to a Dvorak keyboard it will probably mess up my brain even more. I'm left-handed and living in a right handed world is enough of a pain as is.
OK, QWERTY vs DVORAK. Who cares? I think everyone can aggree Dvorak is slightly faster in 'proven' studies. Both of them SUCK (in my mind).
They were both designed for TYPING. As in, words. Not WORD PROCESSING or even using the keyboard as simply an input method.
This leads me to the following conclusion: The best keyboard would be a keyboard designed for COMPUTING. With easy and ergonomic shortcut keys (alt and control should be in the center of keyboard between a split spacebar in a split-style keyboard IMHO).
Also, I beleive that keyboard layouts should be customizeable with a universal mapping format standard (like HTML). I havn't programmed C in years (went the Sysadmin route instead). That means I hardley ever use the semicolon! I wish I could just remap my semicolon to be a regular colon for when I type in all those ftp: http: and https:
I know this could be done, but it would be nice if I could just save the format to some standard file and bring it to whatever PC I wanted (that ran whatever OS). Or even a little USB keychain thing (you seen those? they're neat!) that I could plugin that would switch my keyboard on the fly.
My ideal keyboard:
Control and Alt in the center (split-style)
Back and Forward keys (for varying purposes-not just web browsers)
NO FRIGGIN NUM LOCK. ALWAYS ON DAMNIT!
Shortcut keys (a-la MS Internet keyboard) but have EVERY one programmable. Not just a few.
USB hub (at least two extra ports coming out)
USB cable detatchable
LCD display for programmers to play with (it could display your current WPM or the CPU temp)
--------------------------
-Riskable
-Riskable
"Those who choose proprietary software will pay for their decision!"
Most of the symbols and little used letters are grouped on the top and bottom rows on the left hand, with the vowels in the middle. The right hand gets the most common consonants.
A mirror script DVORAK might be nice, but for now I'll stick with my Qwerty.
mrlefty
Is there a script to do this without xwindows? I'd love to have something that transposed through a tty.
Then again, if you had this running on your physical machine, then performed the permutation again through your telnet session, you'd end up typing in a double cipher that uses the QWERTY and DVORAK mappings as encryption keys!
I wonder how much faster/slower *that* is...
Kevin Fox
I've never used a Dvorak, but was curious enough to dig around Google to find a place. Here's my favorite:
DvortyBoards -- interesting site. They sell a switchable board (i.e. swap between Qwerty & Dvorak on the fly). US$50 plus shipping & handling. Apparently the translation is done in the keyboard itself, so it would be compatible with any OS.
--Mid
The Myth of QWERTY discussed in April
"there once was a big guy named lou
If you wish to do it without X windows:
/usr/lib/kbd/keytables/i386/dvorak/dvorak.map.gz' /usr/lib/kbd/keytables/i386/qwerty/us.map.gz'
/usr/share/keymaps/i386/dvorak/dvorak.map.gz' /usr/share/keymaps/i386/qwerty/us.map.gz'
(assuming US locale)
RedHat:
alias asdf 'loadkeys
alias aoeu 'loadkeys
Debian:
alias asdf 'loadkeys
alias aoeu 'loadkeys
Remember, with both these systems, if you fsck it up, you can reboot and restore your default keymaps. In addition, check to make sure that those paths are right - I did it from memory, and it is possible that your system is different.
Perhaps, but while the deficiancies of Windows are well-documented, the evidence that QWERTY is deficiant is less scientific and less definite. If someone produces a study that proves that DVORAK is _significantly_ faster or more accurate than QWERTY, maybe then it will be time to reconsider
There was an article very very recently on just this subject. Basically, the tests that proved that the Dvorak system was superior were performed by Mindcraft, or if not them, Dvorak himself. Also, it's been discovered that the alternate-hand version of typing is actually very speedy. While one finger is whacking one key, the other is moving into position. Conclusion: just stick with QWERTY. It works, everyone uses it, and it's a headache to learn a new system for a mere 4 WPM gain. The reason your friend showed such improvement is probably because he learned to type correctly on that system, instead of a bastardized typing scheme that many people learn on their own. For instance, I hit the y key with my left hand as opposed to my right, and I don't use my right pinky except to use the shift key. If I learned DVORAK, I would learn it correctly, and gain some speed.
From a country that can never seem to make the migration the metric system (to the detriment of a Mars probe). Do you actually think that the dovark keyboard will ever be more than a pricey "option?" Sometimes, we can't let go of what were are used to just to grab onto something better. Can you say 1.4M Floppy?
Just my $.02,
"Perhaps most amazingly, votaries of 'diversity' insist on absolute conformity." -- Tony Snow
I've never used, or even seen a Dvorak keyboard (I don't think). Obviously I currently use QWERTY - but I wanted to know:
Anyone out there know of any general typing speeds attained on the DVORAK system? I'm a pretty fast typist - in fact I average at 120wpm. I'd love to know if using DVORAK would be faster - but after getting so familiar with QWERTY I'm not terribly keen to attempt it unless someone knows of people who can type faster than 120wpm on DVORAK keyboards.
Thanks
BlueSky
I use to use the Dvorak setting on my old Apple //c. That was back when I was just learning how to type, so it was no different then learning qwerty. Of course, that was also when my father got me those killer $9.95 typing tutor programs so that my time on the machine was actually 'useful'. ;)
I think its easier to stick with just one keyboard layout. After going through school and work with qwerty, I think it would be a pain to try to pick up Dvorak again. If you practice long enough, you should be able to pick up a decent speed, even on qwerty...
-- toolie
I forgot to mention that listing files in a UNIX directory requires 3 key strokes, all with the same finger:
"l"
"s"
*enter*
So, even if you alias "l" -> "ls", you still have to jump to the *enter* key with the same finger.
My point about vi is not about typing the name of the vi executable, but using all the vi commands within the program.
Vi is an incredibly powerful editor but before you can experience the power, you need to train your fingers use all key commands in command mode and colon mode. Vi is operated entirely from the keyboard. What I found when I switched to Dvorak is that even though I knew where all the Dvorak keys were, my fingers still went for the old key locations. For example, h-j-k-l are the standard vi cursor keys which are conveniently located side by side on a qwerty keyboard. On a dvorak keyboard they are scattered all over the place.
There are hundreds of keystroke commands for vi that I've stored in my fast access memory, but they need to be re-learnt for a dvorak keyboard. This is difficult, besides, the vi keystrokes are optimised for the qwerty keyboard. Even if you learn them for dvorak, they don't feel optimal.
Another problem I found when programming is that the "{" and "}" keys are too far away, and these two keys are used a LOT in popular programming languages such as Java, perl, C, C++ etc.
But apart from all that, the reasons I gave "for" using a dvorak keyboard lead me to want to switch to it again at some point in the future. But unfortunately, not until I give up my beloved UNIX command line.
I learnt dvorak once and was surprised to reach a speed of 60wpm in less than three weeks (my qwerty speed is much faster but that's because I've practiced it more). It is definately much more efficient for typing English sentences, but not much good for programming (see below).
The reason you can type English sentences much faster is because dvorak was designed to take advantage of the way English words are spelt:
1. All vowels are on the left side of the keyboard and nearly all consonants are on the right side of the keyboard. This means that (compared with qwerty) if a particular character is typed with the left hand, the next character in the word is more likely to be typed by the right hand. By alternating hands more frequently, this gives the idle hand more time to move to where its next character will be.
2. All the common letters are on the home row so you don't have to move your hands as much. For example, look at the layout of the keyboard: http://www.ccsi.com/~mbrooks/dvorak/layout.html and work out how to type the word "the". Then compare with qwerty. I picked a small word because that makes the exercise easier. Pick a larger word if you wish and count how many times you need to stretch beyond the home row.
3. Even when you do need to stretch beyond the home row, there are easy regions to stretch to and hard regions to stretch to. Dvorak puts all the rare characters in the hard to reach places.
Qwerty, on the other hand seems to have been designed to make it easy to type the word "qwerty". If you're a one fingered typist.
But back to dvorak and UNIX hackers. I said before that dvorak makes it easy to type English sentences. Anyone who programs knows that programming doesn't involve many English sentences, or even English words. The UNIX command line is full of cryptic commands with all the vowels taken out. For example "ls" on the qwerty keyboard is easy to type because you alternate hands: "l" in the right hand, and "s" in the left. Because dvorak assumes that most words have consonants separated by vowels, you end up having to type all of "ls" with one hand, and unfortunately with the same finger in this case. Since this is one of the most popular commands in UNIX, this can be irritating.
For the moment, I have switched back to qwerty because too many things in UNIX are difficult to do with a dvorak keyboard (especially vi!). I plan to switch back to dvorak again in the future once I have an operating system as powerful as UNIX/Linux but which doesn't rely on typing in cryptic commands. For example, www.jos.org, a Java based operating system (shameless plug!).
:-)
--
Ryan Heise
Accually in RH 6.0 its /usr/lib/kbd/keymaps/i386/dvorak/dvorak.kmap.gz /usr/lib/kbd/keymaps/i386/us.kmap.gz
:) :)
and
of course still alias asdf ' ' and alias aoeu ' ' as above.
(in most shells if your using bash its alias asdf=' ' for those newbies out there
Between standards and least common denominator. You are talking about the latter.
---
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(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
Here's how to set up your Unix machine to try out the Dvorak layout. You need X windows to do this.
:)
First, print out a picture of the Dvorak layout. A GIF and a PDF version are on Marcus Brooks' page.
Now, follow these instructions IN ORDER (or you'll have trouble changing back to Qwerty). Download the following xmodmap scripts:
Qwerty and Dvorak
Then, make an alias to change back and forth easily:
% alias asdf 'xmodmap ~/dvorak.xmodmap'
% alias aoeu 'xmodmap ~/qwerty.xmodmap'
I chose the alias so the same four keys are typed in either Qwerty or Dvorak mode. So just type "asdf" to toggle between them. Then you can decide for yourself and avoid all the flame-ridden commotion.
Ummm...
alias list=ls
alias l=ls
alias ll=ls
I don't get the point about vi either. Both Qwerty and Dvorak alternate hands on the v and i.
Mike Babcock's link explains how.
I switched to Dvorak about 6 years ago. At first I put little stickers with the dvorak label on my keyboard. When they fell off I found I didn't need them any more. Now I'm faster on Dvorak than I ever was on Qwerty (and I'm 100% a touch typist since the labels on the keys match Qwerty instead of dvorak), and I can easily switch between Dvorak and Qwerty. The only problem is when somebody needs to use my machine and I forget to put the keyboard back to Qwerty for them. I'd recommend learning it, but realize that for two weeks you will be a hunt and peck typist again...it's excruciatingly painful to go back to that, even though it is only for a little while.
I also purchased a Dvorty board. I agree, the quality of the keyboard is fair-poor.
The keys are mushy, the backslash is in the "wrong" place, and after two days of using it, the tilde key started getting stuck for apparently no reason. I would recommend not purchasing this keyboard -- possibly sticker overlays or the Kineses-Ergo keyboard are better solutions.
The existence of FUD about Dvorak is beyond understanding. The Dvorak keyboard layout was reasearched and designed for optimally for American English. With certainty, Qwerty was not. It's a relic dating to the development of punch cards. We've moved beyond entering data with punch cards, now it's time to move beyond entering data with Qwerty.
ug, why on earth would you want to use the UNIX 'visual editor'? I mean, if you can train yourself out of QWERTY, I'm sure you could lean another text editor...
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I think he was talking about using commands in vi, not starting it
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I assume you ment '' you get those by typing in < and >. I won't tell you how to get the '&' character though :)
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Its similar, but the keyboard Control pannel is diffrent. Click the 'language' tab, and then click add. Add some other form of 'english' (such as english british, you can't use English US twice). Then click on the propertys button and change the layout.
you can configure win9x to switch on the fly with the left-alt+shift or control+sift if you want
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
For those of you that want to try Dvorak and/or /.). This requires some trivial editing of your dvorak.map file.
ar going to remap you're keyboard. Consider swapping the minus/underscore and the slash/question keys. When working Unix you just happen to use slash a lot. (it's also fast for typing
I've seen a few posts saying "Oh yeah, I went to a Dvorak and my typing speed increased by 10-15%"
I'm not sure about anyone else, but if I switched to a Dvorak keyboard (I've played with some of the Java applets that make your keyboard emulate one), I'm sure my typing speed would _decrease_ by more than 10-15% !
Yeah, yeah, If I used it for awhile, I would get used to it, yeah, yeah. WHY BOTHER?!? I consider myself an exteremly fast typist (sp?), but since I never had any formal keyboarding lessons, I sorta have my own style of typing. But it took years for me to get to where I'm at now, and it would probably take longer to unlearn the QWERTY way and re-learn the Dvorak method. For something as trival as the arrangement of letters on a keyboard, I certainly don't think it's worth the effort.
That can explain why there are a lot of life stories about improvements.
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
I'm pretty sure that was supposed to be a joke.
Shaun
I don't know if anyone has posted this link yet, but you can find a good web based Dvorak typing tutor at:
http://www.mit.edu:8001/pe ople/jcb/Dvorak/dvorak-course/For the first week or so, I could only type about 5wpm on dvorak (look-at-chart-then-type-letter mode) but the second week I was at 10 and the third week I was at 20. A month after I switched I was at 35 (fast enough to be useful) and a month after that I was at full speed again.
After you reach this point it really doesn't matter what the keys on the keyboard are labeled - in fact I'm typing this right now on a dvorak-mapped qwerty-labeled Microsoft Natural keyboard.
Also, you'll learn much faster if you can resist the urge to switch back to qwerty for every huge task that comes up (just hang out on IRC for a while in dvorak mode, a few afternoons will suffice)
I've also strapped a foam pad to the back of my mouse to support my wrist (keep it level and stationary instead of on the desk), at least on the windows machines I have to use. Since I'm a console junkie the mouse doesn't get used in linux much.
I would think that typing faster might increase the chance of repetitive stress injuries. I know Dvorak is supposed to help because overall the fingers move less, but it seems that since the rate of keypresses goes up, the rate of injury could still increase. Has anyone experienced this?
Also, how does the Dvorak layout work with programming? How convenient are the keys for {, }, <, >, $, etc?
If you have to ask "why vi over pico" you have a wonderful vi learning experience to look forward to.
Entering text into a workstation is a long way from being "yesterday's problem". Any proposed replacement for that role would need to at minimum deliver equal speed at equal cost. Dvorak delivers this whereas your proposals seem unlikely to do so.
Even better, hows about an 3l337 keyboard, in which all the numbers are on the home row? ;)
grab those warez in double quick time!
Qwerty wasn't designed to slow things down, it was designed so that keys which were often hit in sequence were not next to each other. There were lots of typing contests conducted back when the market was still EXTREMELY supportive of changing the layout, and qwerty simply won normally. Why exactly is it that there is always an attraction to the obscure, especially in this community? Sometimes, things are the standard simply because they are better.
As far as the typing speed doubling or whatever, all I have to ask is have you ever heard of a placebo? Never underestimate the power of the mind.
I'll look for a link to the comparison I saw before
but ergonomic keyboards screw up my nethack game. The damn b is on the wrong side of the keyboard.
...but a friend up the hall re-arranged his keyboard (manually) as a Dvorak. He also claims it increases his typing speed by a factor of 2. I think I'll stick with my natural keyboard though. It's one of the only good things Microsoft has ever done, IMHO. At least when you get used to it.
-Will
If you need a DVORAK keyboard, simply remap. It is very true what they save about dvorak. I use to type 82wpm when I used qwerty, but now my speed is at 147wpm with Dvorak, the only problem is that it is not standard. It is easy to build a device that you plug a keyboard to, this will convert qwerty input to dvorak input, this is useful in environments where you cannot remap the keyboard, I am too lazy to look for the link where I found the device, search the web.
------ Curiosity killed the cat. {satisfaction brought it back | it didn't die ignorant | lack of it is killing mankind
I am, and always have been a big fan of standards.
:))
/. poster #104543567
People rag on me for using sh and vi, but they are everywhere. Not once have I walked up to a unix machine and not been able/comfortable using it because my favorite shell/editor wasn't there (zsh/ksh/emacs/whatever). Same thing goes with desktops. I usually just leave my WM alone, and use what is there. I'm very used to the HP/SUN windowmanager ui's, because I use them every day. (Ok, so I run a combo of E with BlueSteel over a minimal gnome dekstop - but i get by!
The same theory applies to keyboard setups. While one may be faster, glitzier or whatever, the other is EVERYWHERE you go.
My point is - If I am using what I know will be everywhere, I will be comfortable there. I don't have any special key-bindings/macro/aliases setup and I like to keep it that way.
-stax
http://www.urbanlegends.com/misc/dvorak.html
Points to two articles on the differences and
explains where the legend originated. (They
don't specficially classify it as a "legend"
buts they've at least got some hard info on
the topic.)
http://www.dvortyboards.com/dvorak.html
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Let's switch to the metric system and then after that we'll have the right to critize the keyboard layout.
Also, a 15% raise in speed for people who type long texts does not mean a 15% raise for the speed of coding. Nobody (except Slashdotters ) uses the {}[], so I'll bet they are hidden somewhere hard to reach on the Devorak keyboard.
From the Avatar of The Sect.
you know, if you really wanna type faster, all you gotta do is become an irc addict. that ups your wpm by 30-40 or more easily.. I know this, because I'm a recovering addict myself, and have addicted entirely too many friends.. they all say they type much faster since starting..
"Short, tall, fat, skinny, from the highest king to the lowest man, everyone uses the potty." - Brak
but, IMHO, the metric systems is a Good Thing (tm), as opposed to the "English[/American] system of measurement, because the metric system has a standard base from which all measurements are taken. You know, from orders of magnitude, relative sizes. We know because we've lived with the American-ized system our whole lives. I mean, think about how scewered our system is:
12 inches in a foot
5280 feet in a mile (I think, can't remember...)
3 feet in a yard
etc, etc......
yet, the metric system has a concise, orderly way of measuring things, that is simple to use once you remember what the prefixes mean..
just my $0.02 worth
Insert mind here.
yeah, i knew that...
(faux pas of the grandest sort)
*hands head in shame*
well, darn it, i got on my matchbox, and look what it did for me
Insert mind here.
Yes!
I'd like to begin by asking a rhetorical question: What does my religion have to do with anything? (Did I bring it up in my discussion? If I did, I apologize now, and profusely, but I don't think I did).
To continue with my retort, I am an American. Ha!
Where does "You euros" come in this discussion, eh? Unless you meant that as an outward statement against all Europeans who might be thinking as I was/am. I "get by just fine" with "our system" because I've been accustomed to it all my life, but even then, there are many units that I can't convert (within the "American system") because I can't remember them all. Why? Well, it could be that
or
My point is, I'm going to say that it can and will always be a matter of preference, because you can't make people do what they don't wish to do. Still, I remain firm in my belief that the metric system is superior to the "American system."
Insert mind here.
I changed over to the Dvorak layout about a year ago after reading about how superior it was ( in terms of speed and comfort ). It took me +-3 weeks to be up to the speed I was with QWERTY. I have no regrets about learning Dvorak, but that is only because it fulfilled 50% of my expectations - namely comfort. It is significantly more comfortable to type on. Your fingers definitely stay on the home row more than with the QWERTY layout. If you're looking to avoid strain on your hands, then Dvorak is quite possibly worth learning.
However, I have not found it to be any faster than QWERTY. If it's speed that you're looking for, then your time would be better spent practicing your QWERTY typing, rather than learning a new layout.
If you do decide to learn Dvorak and you want a Dvorak keyboard, then I recommend purchasing one of the classic 101 key IBM PS/2 keyboards ( using the buckling-spring switches ). I'm sure that you can find a second-hand one quite easily. If you want a new one, then try Unicomp. This is the company that bought the buckling spring technology off of Lexmark ( spun off from IBM ). They sell these keyboards for $69.
The reason I recommend this IBM keyboard is because all the keys have the same angle and shape, so you can rearrange them to a Dvorak layout easily. It took me five minutes to do mine. Another nice feature is that you don't have to pull the whole key off. Each key has a hollow shell on top of the key that you can remove, without pulling the whole key off. Another bonus is the fact that these keyboards have the best 'feel' out of any keyboard I've ever tried.
After you've rearranged your keyboard, you'll still need software to remap the keys. It isn't hard to do under Linux or Windows. The only problem that I've found is that certain Window's games use the original layout ( and ignore your modified keyboard map ). So, for these games you might have to customize the controls. Also, don't forget the QWERTY position of the keys that you need to use for LILO. Both your BIOS setup as well as LILO won't know about your Dvorak layout, which causes problems if you've actually changed the physical keycaps.
The issue about using QWERTY keyboards on the other systems that I have to work on is not a problem. When I actually tell people that I don't use QWERTY it usually impresses the heck out of them ( Of course, the other technical people might be skeptical, but the "people-in-suits" look at me in awe. They think I'm some kind of god for being able to type on keyboards that they can't use. Go figure. ).
To conclude, I actually believe that the quality of the keyboard will usually make more of a difference to your typing than the layout you use. Try not to use the mushy keyboards that are so common today. If you can find yourself a keyboard with good tactile response, then your typing will be infinitely more pleasant, whether or not you use Dvorak.
Regards,
Peter K.
Typing in Dvorak, I more often enter letter pairs backwards, because I have more fingers moving at a time.
Typing in Dvorak significantly reduced the pain in my wrists. Maybe Dvorak is better. Maybe learning to type all over again helps you avoid the bad habbits you got into the first time you learned to type.
A Dvorak keyboard is almost as good as a locking screensaver for keeping other people away from your computer.
To type in Dvorak I look at the screen. To type QWERTY, I look at the keyboard. I cannot type in QWERTY on a keyboard labelled in Dvorak. I could type in Dvorak on a completely blank keyboard.
Geez. Fifteen years and we still haven't taken over the world.
hey, I'm first poster for once! neet!
but seriously.. if dvorak keyboards help, then I say use them. but if you're like most people (learned to type on a qwerty), it might be hard for you to relearn how to type... especially if you're like, a unix greybeard and you remember when ARPAnet had 4 nodes (christmas 69 or 70, I do believe). I've never seen dvorak keyboards for sale..
warren
Anybody know about running Dvorak with none-American keyboard layouts? I realize that it can't really work as planned, since Dvorak is designed after the English languages use of letters, and since letters not used in English have to be moved to the side (öäå, three common letters in Swedish, are all on the right side of l and p on Swedish qwerty), but I write _mostly_ in English anyways.
All the xmodmap scripts I have seen seem to be likely to screw up non english keyboards, however. Does Dvorak dictate the position of the non alphabetic characters?
-
http://www.ccsi.com/~mbrooks/dvorak/ is a good starting point if you're interested in the Dvorak layout; I tried it this past summer, and found it to be much easier on my hands, although I was reduced to a hunt-and-peck typist. One of these days I want to actually start learning to type on a Dvorak as quickly as I can on a QWERTY..
You may also want to check out the official page for the Dvorak keyboard layout at http://www.dvorakint.org, although it seems to be down at the moment.
There was also a handy little utility I had for Win9x that would let you switch layouts on the fly and learn to type with a Dvorak without buying one, but I've lost the link to it.. I'll post a followup if I find it again.
This is a not very well known fact about France, but there people do not normaly use QWERTY keyboards, but AZERTY keyboards.
;q;q !!!!
Just imagine a QWERTY keyboard were you swich the A by the Q, the Z by the W, the ; by the M, put the numbers in a way that you need to use the SHIFT key to type them and finally add some other smaller but not less stuped changes and you get an AZERTY keyboard!
Then imagine the pain of trying to type _anything_! Just try to writhe mama and you get
In my opinion this is the siliest thing ever. At least with a Dvorak keyboard most of the keys are different (I think!) and so you know you can not type as you would with a QWERTY keyboard. But with AZERTY they are close enought so that you end up typing as usual and making lots of mistakes.
Luckily most Unix stations do have proper English QWERTY keyboards!
Angel
P.S.- As an Spanish that I am, when I think that the European Union asked Spain to remove the from keyboards so that they were not different from the rest of the UE members, but nobody has said anything to France about their AZERTY keyboars I realize how stupid politicians can sometimes be...
P.S.2.- As a kind of discharge I must say that in theory AZERTY keyboards let you type easily in French by assigning keys to the accents like é or è, but for coding they are just terrible. And this could also be done by using a combination of keys, like in Spanish QWERTY keyboards.
I recall that the major paper pushing the efficiency of Dvorak was done in the 30's or something by the inventor of the Dvorak keyboard. No studies since then have found any major differences between Qwerty/Dvorak AFAIK.
If we were going to do a new keyboard layout, why not loose the hunt'n'peck alltogether and introduce chorded keyboards where you have ten keys giving 2^10 combinations without shifting a single finger from the home row. This is sorta like arguing about what tyres work best on a horse cart.
x.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
You are absolutely correct. In fact, I mentioned that in my comment right after I mentioned all the options users have. I myself learned best from just touchtyping. I found it easier to just go "cold turkey" and not look at the keys at all.
Got HTML? Want LaTeX? Try html2latex
In closing, I just have to recommend to everyone the most fantastic keyboard I have ever scene: The Acer Future Keyboard I don't work for Acer or anything, I just think this keyboard is the best thing since sliced bread. I know it looks funny, but having a touch-pad right in the middle of the keyboard with the cursor keys is really great for everyday use (although, I admit it is terrible for playing Quake).
Hope this helped!
Got HTML? Want LaTeX? Try html2latex
I can believe it. I don't touch type because it's awkward, especially on a standard keyboard. I have a natural keyboard at home that I use two handed, and tend to type one-handed at work on the standard sized boards. (I have rather large hands)
Intolerant people should be shot.
Having used both dvorak and qwerty + microsoft ergo style keyboards and still suffered really badly with RSI, I can't suggest anything other than the Kinesis Contoured ergo keyboard; takes a while getting used to but once you are, it's fast and more comfortable than anything else. It took me 4 days of typing to get back up to 110wpm.
I'm not paranoid - everyone really is out to get me.
For you, both the QWERTY and the Dvorak keyboard makes sense, they're designed to type english words. :)
English words?! I wonder how many percent of the QWERTY keyboards out there are being used for different languages (especially if you count computer ones...
On my swedish keyboard the [;' keys are replaced with åöä (swedish vowels). First of all, that's not a very good place for commonly used vowels (at least not for my rather passive right pinkie), and secondly, to get the characters that are there on english keyboards, I have to do all sorts of strange stuff (alt-shift-8 for a '{'). As for unix hacking it's a mess. '/' is located on shift-7, and '' are next to the 'z' key.
Couldn't someone invent a good swedish keyboard?
or even better (rambling) invent a keyboard that had little LCD:s on each key, to display how it was currently mapped. This would let everyone use their favourite key-mapping anywhere (assuming of course that everyone in the whole world bought one of these "cheap" little buggers).
Think of the number of annoying programs one could write! A program that analyzed how you typed and dynamically moved the characters around... hmm, perhaps I should stop rambling now.
But anyway, I think that the problem of foreign (meaning languages with only a few more characters) keyboards has been forgotten. And unfortunately I don't see this changing.
A while ago, I had a sudden urge to change something hardware on my comp, and, since I didn't exactly have to money to buy a new K7, I decided to try a dvorak keyboard. After a half-hearted attempt to find one in local stores, I found out I could remove the keys on my keyboard. So, as a weekend-adventure, I laboriously plucked each key from my keyboard (with the help of a screw-driver), and put them back in according to a picture of a dvorak keyboard I had found. I then did a "loadkeys dvorak.kmap" and started out a tutorial I found on freshmeat. It works great. The only real side-effect: a somewhat "hilly" keyboard. At least on my (cheap) keyboard, the keys in each successive row are tilted a little bit more. It looks a tad odd when rearranged, though I, truthfully, can't tell the difference while typing. Also, the transition isn't all that hard if you can touch-type, as long as you never have to look at your keys. I can't really comment on increased speed, as I have not even finished the tutorial yet. Still, it's quite fun to see the expression on your friends' faces when they try to use your comp. ;)
Auknight Colather
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"Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant; they too have their story." --quote from Desiderata
Well, I wouldn't recommend totally forgetting
qwerty. It's what everyone uses. Try Dvorak. I personally don't like it - then again, I'm not a touch typist, but still get about 80 words a minute. It's all personal preference...
A preposition is a terrible thing to end a sentence with.
I use the dvorak keyboard layout and it has increased my typing speed immensely. I just type on a qwerty keyboard with the keys changed. It doesn't really matter if you can touch type.
Phluid!
I use the dvorak keyboard layout and it has increased my typing speed immensely. I just type on a qwerty keyboard with the keys changed. It doesn't really matter if you have a realy dvorak keyboard as long as you can touch type.
Phluid!
Take a look at www.dvortyboards.com they make really nice keyboards that you can switch between dvorak and qwerty mode with the press of a button. It works all in hardware, so you'll have no problem with whatever operating system you use.
If you just want to dvorak, I sugest that you use stickers or that you change the keys on your keyboard. You'll also need to change the keymap, but hey ! what a deel !
resilience is futile
Dvorak was designed with the english language in mind.. Does anyone know about an Dvorak-like keymap with accentuated caracters to type in french ?
resiliance is futile
resilience is futile
80 sounds excessive, but I once tested my typing
skill (when interviewing for a job in high school). 55 WPM, using 3 fingers + thumb. I can
only touch type about 30.
One day a while ago I was going to look up RedHat's stock... I didn't notice I was in Dvorak keymap, and typed in "rhat" but it displayed as "pday" and I imediatly thought "PayDay" funny, yet true.
Douper
Here's another reason, probably not true, but here goes. Supposedly, typewriter salesman wanted to show off how fast their new machine was, and how much than the old quill it was. They all sucked at typing though (typing at 50WPM was a big deal and considered superhuman). So, the keyboard was arranged so that only the top row is required to spell out T-Y-P-E-W-R-I-T-E-R.. easy enough for any salesman to learn to type quickly :-)
Or just cover them up or ignore them.
Then you have to remap all the
keys in your operating system - this would involve a different process depending on what operating system
you use.
So who's up for writing a hack for the linux keyboard driver to remap the keys for DVORAK under stty control? (Assuming it isn't in there already.)
You can do it in X but that doesn't help when you don't have X up.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Dvorak is nice, but it solves yesterday's problem.
Wearable computers are coming, and we need an input method that you can use while walking down the street. The Twiddler is just a first-generation example.
We need an input device that can be used in any position (sitting, standing, lying down), and that allows rapid input of not just ASCII, but extended characters (accented letters, etc).
A truly sophisticated input device would make full use of the neuromuscular capabilities of the hand for the highest bandwidth... consider playing the violin, and try to imagine doing it on a keyboard or using a mouse. Perhaps in the future, kids will spend years learning how to use input devices (just like the violin), and will use them to do truly amazing things at very high speed.
> Are there any programs like "Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing" that will teach Dvorak?
r .gz), the keyboard practicer. Well, KP doesn't have lesson files, and therefore is pretty worthless. Learning to type without prepared lessons is hard to do. KP also is a bit annoying, since it doesn't simply map keysyms to dvorak keycodes, but depends on a US keyboard layout.
;-), because I had to move away from the home row quite often - not nearly as often as with QWERTY, but more often than it deemed me neccesary.
I did a short search and find a program for the Mac (I don't have one), and a tcl/tk program KP (ftp://stampede.cs.berkeley.edu/pub/kp/kp-0.97.ta
I've tried about half an hour, and got to 10-15 wpm on one of my own (english, technical) texts. I didn't feel all too comfortable (ok, first half hour
I decided to do a histogram over my texts, because that would reveal which letters *I* really need on the home row. The result was (most frequent on middle finger, next on index finger, then ring finger, small finger, index finger one off, and for right hand small finger one off):
My english texts: oaeiu cstnrl
My german texts: uaeio hrntsd
My programs: iaeou drtsnl
Hitchhikers guide: ioeau rnthsd
Original Dvorak: aoeui dhtns-
I used a copy of "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" to check against a real native speaker, and a non-technical text (my german texts are non-technical, too). I miss the r and l keys on the home row, but I think I could go with standard Dvorak, though. The other question is, do I have the time to do the training? Uhm, I doubt.
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://www.ccsi.com/~mbrooks/dvorak/
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Most modern operating systems will let you switch keyboard layouts easily. On Mac OS 8.5/8.6, Dvorak is already loaded, so you just go to the Keyboard Control Panel, select Dvorak and you're ready. It also enables a menu icon allowing you to easily switch back and forth between the two should you need it. And as someone else said, once you learn the new layout, you won't even have to look at the keyboard to type.
On the flip side, the benefits of Dvorak are marginal at best. It's never been proven one way or the othe which layout is better. I stick with QWERTY though, since it'd be rough for me to switch mentally back and forth when I have to use the campus computers.
If you do decide to switch, but want both layouts, i would recommend popping the caps off and writing the dvorak letters on the FRONT of the keys so you don't wear them out as quickly. It's also unobstrusive for the qwertietes that borrow your computer. Use whatever layout-switching advice you find to go with it.
/. posts, philosophy or english papers, and so forth. May not be faster, but it certainly FEELS more comfortable, more rhythmic, and more error-free. It also caused my non-typist friend to more easily learn how to type.
I use "aaa" (as in what the bloody hell?) to switch to qwerty, and "mmm" (as in mmm... forbiden donut) to switch to dvorak
Yes, coding can be a pain, but quickly got used to it, sucked it up for the benefit of writing emails,
Sorry, only anecdotal evidence from me.
I've seen this comment a few times now in this discussion - how do I remap my keyboard?
:)
Win NT:
Open Control Panel
Open Keyboard Settings
Click on the Input Locales
Select your location
Click Properties
Choose US-Dvorak from the List
Win9x should be similar
Simple, innit?
Consultancy: If you're not part of the solution, there's money to be made in prolonging the problem
I think the original purpose of QWERTY on typewriter keyboards was to prevent people from typing to fast and having keys or hammers get stuck.
Not abandoning QWERTY when typewriters got better (like the IBM ones with the spinning ball instead of those hammer thingies) or when computers came out probably was done to make it easier to use the new devices.
There are people who can't find things if they rearrange something as simple as a desk or fridge. Could you imagine changing around 30 or 40 keys on them?
There is more to life than making it go faster - Gandhi
To err is human,
To really screw up, you need a computer!
In Windows98, just look in the Keyboard control panel. In Linux, do "loadkeys dvorak". On Macs, download a dvorak layout and add it to some folder somewhere.
I've been typing on Dvorak for about a year, and the huge benefit is *comfort*, not speed.
Sure, dvorak certainly faster. But it's not faster by more than a factor of 1.5-2 times. And furthermore, most people are far below the speed limit that either layout imposes; they'd benefit more from taking some typing lessons than they would from learning a new layout.
But even so, switch to dvorak. You're hands will love you. And, it only takes about a month to do it. What's a month, compared to however much time you plan to spend using computers in your life?
And incidentally, it's *not* that hard to remain able to use both kinds of keyboard layout. I certainly can type okay on Qwerty, though it feels slow and awkward....
Unfortunately, one has to repat this again and agian. The article called "The Fable of the Keys" to Dvorak is what recent Microsoft's "Linux Myths Explained" to Linux. Pure FUD.
...I strongly feel that the present keyboard has not been fully exploited, and I am out to exploit it to its very utmost in opposition to the change to new keyboards."
For the Nth time, peruse this link: http://www.ccsi.com/~mbrooks/dvorak/dissent.html
To quote a poster to a different story, "All of the current anti-Dvorak hype stems from a _single_ paper, The Fable of The Keys."
And guess what, an overwhelming majority of posters to this story mention "The Fable of The Keys" as the only source of proof.
Alas, many don't bother to follow the above link either, so I'll just summarize a few key points:
- The Fable of The Keys is based on very sketchy and weak evidence. The most referred-to study in that article is the 1956 GSA study conducted by Dr. Earl Strong, who was an anti-Dvorak advocate. It's best illustrated by what Strong said a few years before the study:
"I have developed a great deal of material on how to get this increased production on the part of typists on the standard [QWERTY] keyboard.
Again, to provide analogies with Microsoft vs. Linux battle, that "convincing" 1956 GSA study is same as that recent Metrowerks "Windows NT vs Linux" comparison test--paid by Microsoft, biased, etc.
- The paper talks about "lack of solid evidence that Dvorak is objectively better." Damn, this angers me so much: so many people have reported great or just-as-good results with Dvorak, so many people reported hard, undisputable numbers that Dvorak reduces hand movements and thus has a great potential to increase typing speed and especially decrease typing injuries, that anyone talking about "lack of solid evidence for Dvorak" automatically has their IQ dropped to 20 in my mind.
- The reason you don't see Dvorak bundled with new computers (or otherwise be popular) is because it traditionally has been difficult/expensive to switch typewriters to Dvorak. The mechanisms were often hardwired for a layout and rearranging it was quite a costly process. For a similar reason, because it was not too easy to convert from Windows to Linux (e.g. when there was no UMSDOS or friendly installation programs), Linux did not gain such a wide acceptance as it deserved to.
- Just like the British system of measurements, QWERTY is outdated but too common to be easily replaced. QWERTY was designed to slow down (PERIOD), plus it was also designed so that salesmen could type "TYPEWRITER" using the top row only, saving them the semi-embarrasing task of hunting and pecking.
It is really upsetting to see such FUD and crap as "The Fable of the Keys" (again, comparable to Microsoft's "Linux Myths Explained") appear on the net and gain wide acceptance.
.
I've read the "Dvorak Myth" article and think it's a bunch of bull. I might not agree with every "scientific" statement from Dvorak and others, but I know from personal experience that the Dvorak layout is far superior to Qwerty.
It takes time to get comfortable with Dvorak (though considerably less than Qwerty), and if you are willing to give it time, it's well worth it.
I can do about 130 words per minute consistanty with Dvorak while still maintaining 65+ on Qwerty keyboards. Two years ago, before switching to Dvorak at home, I could do 85 wpm with Qwerty, but had to sacrifice that speed to learn Dvorak. I learned both on my own without any of that touchtyping nonsense they try to teach in schools. My error rate is relatively low on both, but the greatest benefit to me is the low strain on my hands when using Dvorak.
Dvorak forever,
Flips
I have just started using the dvorak layout today and here are some observations:
/,b,i,. - does any dvorak user have a solution to this? I don't want to remap every program's shortcut keys. What about passwords? I remember my passwords by key locations, not what they actually are...
1. My right hand is being used more than usual, especially my little finger. Maybe I'm just not used to it, but it's actually getting a bit tired.
2. I am typing lots of groups of letters with one hand. This doesn't feel good at all. With qwerty, you are more likely to type each letter with the alternate hand, which feels much better on your hands.
3. It is not hard at all to learn dvorak. After a few hours, I am not up to my old typing speed, but I am well on the way. I cannot see how retraining could be much of a barrier. Of course, there will always be some users who will resist any training and make it take longer than it should.
4. The s key is located where the ; is in qwerty. I am using my little finger about 50 times normal. My hand is starting to hurt whenever I type an s. Hopefully this will go away once I get used to the layout.
5. Our beloved shortcut keys are now all over the place. The Ctrl-z,x,c,v used to be conveniently located in sequence, now they're in locations
6. WinNT's keyboard remapping doesn't work in real time. What I mean is, if you open a program in qwerty mode, then switch to dvorak mode, the switch only affects the actual program in the foreground. This is especially annoying with sending mail in ms exchange. I change to dvorak, then move to the next field, and it's in qwerty! IE, I have to switch to dvorak in every text field ?!?! Maybe those fancy $300+ switchy keyboards are the way to go. (but they're $300+)
You know, the most frequently used letters/words/etc will be different for every language, of course. In addition to that, the words programmers are likely to use are vastly different to what consumers typing a letter would use. In that sense, someone should come out and design a keyboard layout for programmers using say c++/java/whatever language you like...
eg. Dvorak has thrown our frequently used {} braces to where the -= are in qwerty. For C/C++ programmers, these keys may be better off somewhere on the home row!
What we really need is or a group to start now and really design superior keyboard layout. qwerty may be old, but dvorak isn't so young either. Our needs are obviously different now with the level of computing in the world.
But: That program is from 1992, so it seems as if it isn't very popular... :-(
-- There is no place like $HOME.
I've collected several links to dvorak keyboard sellers and dvorak ressources.
Due to the US-english dvorak layout is only different in the positions of the keys on the board, you may create your own dvorak keyboard by just switching your key caps around. And for X11 you can use xkeycaps and xmodmap to tell your computer that you've done that... :-) You'll find an dvorak-xmodmap at Peter Amstutz' Dvorak page.
But if keyboard doesn't allow to switch the key caps around you can also relabel them...
Dvorak Keyboard Sellers:
The Dvorak Layout in comparison to the qwerty layout can be found at Introducing the Dvorak Keyboard .
There are also efforts on creating non-english dvorak layouts.
-- There is no place like $HOME.
Does anyone know of any links that have info or sell Dvroak Keyboards for PCs. Also does Linux support these keyboards?
As the proud owner of both Dvorak and Qwerty keyboards, I have read a bit on the subject. First, some history. The idea behind the Dvorak keyboard is that it assigns important keystrokes evenly between hands, and orients those keys most often used to the 'home' row. Qwerty keyboards were designed so that the stream of keystrokes was alternated between hands, so that the mechanical hammers on 19th century typewriters wouldn't clash together quite so often.
Heres where the efficiency issue gets fuzzy; The Dvorak keyboard was designed to be efficient, but the Qwerty was efficient by mistake. It seems that the alternation of hands allows the brain and hands to get a jumpstart on the next key. The travel may be greater, but the hand is already there when the key needs to be pressed. Studies have shown that the two schemes show near identical results with 'new' typists.
Also at issue is the time spent retooling the brain to accept the new keyboard; Back in the 1950's, the US government (they were hoping to save a buck on typists) conducted a study where some Qwerty typists were trained on Dvorak keyboards, and others were re-trained on Qwerty. While both groups showed improvement, the Qwerty re-trains improved more than their newly converted Dvorak brothers/sisters (have to be PC here). What it comes down to is the fact that you are activly trying to increase your speed, and not schluffing along. I'm sure your friend was trying quite hard to learn the Dvorak layout and show to himself that it was faster! That constitutes training, in a way.
One last myth before I submit. Many people seem to think that Qwerty survived for all the wrong reasons. Qwerty keyboards were NOT the only ones available at the onset of typewriters, nor were they produced by the biggest company. Qwerty killed quite a few other keyboards (Hit IBM's patent search; there is an ingenious one laid out like an organ, with a key for each case of letter) and mostly won on merit.
As for myself, a dual typist? My speed on the Qwerty is faster than on the Dvorak, but only slightly. I use the Qwerty layout much more, and suppose that is the reason for the edge. I was suprised to notice that every time I walked away faster from the Dvorak my speed on the Qwerty was also marginally better. I'd be interested to find out if your mate has also noted this.
.sig: Now legally binding!
Who is to say that QWERTY is outdated? Its personal preference. I use qwerty, I don't type in the traditional since, I hunt and peck, and I hunt and peck damn fast, so why should I change? The reason why QWERTY is used more than DVORAK is probably similiar to the reasons why Unix and its variants aren't being used more (by consumers).
People are comfortable with what they are using now and do not wish (or want to change) and do not want to learn something new (even if it is more efficient!)
Quid rides ignare?
Quoting from "The QWERTY myth": "Economists adore a nice case of market failure. The dogged persistence of the standard typewriter keyboard, held to be a technological anachronism, is a great favourite. Yet the charges against QWERTY were long ago disproved"
- 99/fn7745.html
see http://www.economist.com/editorial/freeforall/3-4
Has anyone remapped their keyboard with a custom layout? Maybe someone could come up with something better for computing needs. Something that takes heavy use of []{}|~ into consideration would be nice. Hmm...
numb
My Linux box at home and my NT box at work are both using the Dvorak keyset on a QWERTY keyboard. So you can't look at the keys, but soon enough you don't need to. (For learning, I brought up a window showing the keyset.)
I love the Dvorak keyset, and it's not true that it's impossible to use both - all the servers at my work use QWERTY, and I switch back and forth with no problem. I'm not as fast at QWERTY as I used to be, but I'm faster with Dvorak, so...
Incidentally, I've read that QWERTY wasn't designed with slowing people down specifically in mind, but instead the designer tried to space out the hammers as much as possible on common letter pairs. Not sure how much truth there is in that.
(The sentence beginning "Not sure..." contains 6 keys not typed from the home row or space bar.)
-=Best Viewed Using [INLINE]=-
The idea that the qwerty keyboard was made to be slower is urban legend. Neither is faster, unless of course you ask Dvorak. My speed nearly doubled when I went to the natural type key board.
No hour on a horse is ever wasted. Winston Churchill
I remember seeing on the History Channle a little snippet about why typewriters used the QWERTY design. It had something to do with the little hammers that strike the ink-ribbon. It turns out that if the keyboard is laid out in Alphabetical order, typing the letters would cause two hammers to activate at the same time and jam up the type writer (anyone that ever did this knows how hard it is sometimes to un-jam it). So typewriter designers changed the layout to accomodate such a problem. i can't really remember the snippet, but i'm pretty sure QWERTY wasn't chosen so you could type "typewriter" faster. In that case, shouldn't it be on the home row?
As for Dvorak, I never tried it... i'm a coder in perl/html/C/C++/Java and i don't think it would help me much.
What we really need is reliable and CORRECT speech recognition... get rid of keyboards all together, (since I talk faster than i type anyway) and just use keyboards for coding any other miscellaneous input.
"Fuzzy Wuzzy was a bear, Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair... Fuzzy Wuzzy wasn't fuzzy was he?"
I don't think that Dvorak keyboards are in high production, but you can get one of the old IBM keyboard with the moveable key caps. I've tried that, but unfortunately, I couldn't get used to it. Also, other people (who don't know Dvorak) use my computer from time to time. I don't know if the old IBM keyboards can still be bought, but there are probably a number of people just throwing them away. Try local high schools. They seem to have piles of these keyboards
SEE!
The amazing stuff on my web page!
SEE!
The cool pictures on my projects page!
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Me...in...space.....
(insert Mel Brooks tune here)
I am Me. No one else is Me, but Me. You are You. Get over it.
I made the switch to a Dvorak keyboard about six years ago (using a Windows driver), based only on its novelty and peer pressure. After a week or two of heavy use, I was quite happy typing English text and C code. True, my Qwerty speed had dropped a bit, but you can always look at the keys if you really need to (A tip though: don't look at the keyboard, just touch type; it'll came back as easily as riding a bicycle, especially if you've spent more time at a keyboard than on a bicycle.).
It was only a while, after I had impressed myself by a moderate increase in typing speed, that I realized the true reason to switch to Dvorak: comfort. Your fingers can move much more naturally. They don't get kinked up reaching for punctuation and common letters on the bottom of the keyboard; you can make little runs to squirt out common sequences of letters (runs: kinda like drumming your fingers on the table; start at the pinky and tap each finger in turn) ie "th", "ch", "cr", sh", "nt".
The emphasis on comfort and natural movement has been backed by a friend with carpal tunnel syndrome; switching to Dvorak has made his life as a sysadmin much happier.
--mark
hey, it's a halfway decent security, too!
I never type faster using Dvorak, 'cause I was raised as a qwerty, but, I can type much longer on dvorak without getting tired.
Also, you don't have to be in X to switch
"loadkeys dvorak" will do fine from the console (i'll let you figure out how to get back yourself =)
cheers
sky
The common myth that the QWERTY layout was designed to slow down the average typist is blatantly false. Because early typewriters were susceptible to jamming, the QWERTY layout was designed so that when typing common English words, the letters that make up an average word would be separated from each other. This design doesn't slow down the average typist, it just causes he or she to have to constantly use all five fingers on both hands in order to type efficiently. The QWERTY layout allowed early typewriters to jam less frequently without causing us to have to artificially slow down the speed in which we type. Its design goal was not to slow typist down, just to spread out the keys that are pressed.
Sig goes here
Both Dvorak and Querty are outdated.
/././././././././././././.
= -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
How about a keyboard that gives the proper level of attention to those character we geeks are typing every few seconds?
Like at (@) and dot (.) and slash (/)? And for programmers, let's not forget #, %, &, = and !.
Hell...for most geeks the stupid punctuation symbols should be on the home row!
Speaking of home row...if we do get an Internet keyboard (around the time the US adopts the metric system) then I vote we put the slash key and the dot key be right next to each other so we all can shamelessly kiss up to our favorite news site
che-tongue-ek
- JoeShmoe
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-- I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
Are there any programmers out there who would reccommend Dvorak over QWERTY for coding purposes?
Is it any easier?
Does it produce less typo's?
And on a separate note - does anyone know how to remap the keys in a DOS box under Windows? No matter how I try, I can remap them under Windows, but the change doesn't effect DOS boxes. (Don't blame me - just the tools I have to put up with at work - we program under OS9 and use PC's - the only way we have at the moment of accessing the OS9 boxes is through a DOS box)
http://harridanic.com
Personally, I'm not sure why we didn't get rid of QWERTY a long time ago. QWERTY was designed to slow us down so that when we typed, the type heads wouldn't get all stuck together. Dvorak was designed to speed us up. When's the last time you were typing on a typewriter PERIOD, much less one old enough to actually have the too-fast-typing problem?
The Dvorak keyboard may be superior but I doubt if the change would really be worth it. Here's an analogy. Microsoft products are inferior but we use them because everyone else uses them. (Well, we do at my job, unfortunately.) It's painful and agonizing to use Microsoft products! Every day I find another reason to hate them!
QWERTY, on the other hand, may be inferior, but I've never once in my life felt any anguish, agony, hatred, or fear because I was using a QWERTY keyboard.
Besides, on Dvorak keyboards, you can't type "QWERTY" nearly as fast!
--- Dirtside
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
Dvorak keyboards are great, and much faster, especially for those of us who are not touch typists. The problem is that if you ever use someone elses keyboard, you go nuts switching back and forth.
I tried Dvorak, and found it easy to learn and much more comfotable when I was writing documents.
But...
Using hard-coded or hard to change Alt-* and Ctl-* keys gets annoying. One example is Ctl-C, which is very useful to type while another hand is on a mouse, but impossible to do with the left hand without moving it to the right Ctl key. Not to mention that now various special keycodes can't be seen on the keyboard (the one case where almost everyone is hunk-and-peck).
My coding also slowed down due to the placement of keys for written text. I used to type with one hand on the editing keys (arrows, del, end, etc) and the other hand typing out keywords (Try it, it's pretty cool). The ping-pong back and forth typing with Dvorak made this nearly impossible to do easily with one hand.
So...
Try it, esp. if you type words more than you type commands, and don't use inflexible programs that use a lot of mouse work. Then just pick what you like best...
By the way, let me thank the braindead Apple people for popularizing ZXCV for cut and paste, simply for their placement, making changing keymaps a royal pain in most OS's.
But how would one go about learning how to touch type on a Dvorak keyboard? I've never seen classes that teach Dvorak.
Are there any programs like "Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing" that will teach Dvorak?
It took me about a week to be comfortable with the dvorak layout, so learning it is not that big a deal. I wouldn't switch back. I haven't noticed any increase in my typing speed, but I think that's because my brain refuses to think any faster. I have, however, noticed a BIG difference in typing comfort. I feel that I have to put only a fraction of the effort into typing when using the dvorak layout opposed to qwerty (except when typing "ls -l". All the keystrokes for this command are done using the little finger of the right hand.) I love the dvorak layout and think everyone should use it.
http://www.cse.ogi.edu/~dylan/dvor ak/dvorak.html
http://www.ccsi.com/~mbrooks/dvorak/
Many more, I'm just to lazy. Use altavista '+dvorak +keyboard'.
If you're looking for information or suppliers of Dvorak or other insane keyboard layouts you might want to check out www.tifaq.com. They have some of the coolest junk you can get. Look under the alternative keyboards section.
This site has information on changing your keyboard to Dvorak with software. It has information for remaping many different platforms including X mappings & windows Software.
I have seen Dvorak keyboards that you can plug in in the place of a normal PC keyboard. For a tech this would solve all but the most obscure problems since you could take your keyboard with you everywhere.
I personally think the key advantage is probalby comfort more than speed. With the dvorak keyboard, you use your weak fingers much less often.
I wonder how it would effect CTS. My guess is that that it would be a wash with the increase in speed canceling the decreased use of weak fingers.
I think I lose a lot of time and mental momentum when I get tripped up typing important keys for coding, namely: _+;:"'`&$!@%|, etc. (no particular order). Many people who type a lot will mostly be keying text, and the punctuation is a very minor part of that... but for those of us who code for a living... Well, I tend to use other characters a lot. I also have to correct myself a lot.
Is there a keyboard layout that would be better suited for this kind of work?
Additionally, is there any sort of keyboard system that is coder-friendly? I looked into it a while ago, and the closest thing I could find was a completely user-definable chord/paddle based keyboard (here), or contoured keyboards ( here), but both seemed lacking for what I do most of the time (as well as pricy).
Does anyone else have any leads? Any thoughts on the matter?
I recently converted my CAPS LOCK key to a control key at work, and I've noticed a huge gain in comfort and usability, and I'd love to find similar gains for general coding and typing.
-Jason
ps. Obviously I could create my own 'coders keyboard layout', but I'd rather have the backing of some serious usage studies on the matter...
...jcg3
i just tried a dvorak java example and think that its pretty hard to use when u use the keyboard in graphics tool with lots of left hand qwerty shortcuts... what is your experience about that?
I changed to using a Dvorak keyboard about a year ago. It didn't take long at all to get used to them. I think it has made me type a bit faster than before. And I can use a Qwerty keyboard without problem still. I converted a IBM keyboard but Keytronic sells "real" Dvorak keyboards.
Erik Dalén
As Dvorak seems to be designed for english text. How does it work for other languages. Does it still have its "pros"?
cu
--== Jerri ==--
Homepage: http://www.jerri.de/
It have been designed to accelerate the typing of the most frequently used English characters and some frequent English pairs of characters, like "th".
These characters are different in other languages, and Dvorak don't take in account the accented characters.
So, until someone designs keyboard layouts for specific languages, I will stick with the AZERTY (French) layout...
Anyway, the idea is basically good, but actually impraticable: to be really efficient, if you write both in English and in French, for example (I do, I maintain my sites with both languages), in theory, you must learn a Dvorak layout for both languages... Plus the QWERTY and AZERTY layouts... Don't think about multi-lingual translators!
I've written a rough tray util for Win 9x (NT's being stubborn) that toggles layout 'tween Qwerty and Dvorak and also displays a popup window of the layout (complete with cheesy graphics). Helped me learn the Dvorak at work when I couldn't reassemble my keyboard or have a business case for buying a special board.