author:[q]You let him access your Explorer. I thought that was something special between us.[/q]
m$w:hey but then by that time you were forcing me into two somes with that naughty grub & linux !!
That was bad, really really bad,..
how could i ever forgive u ??
[quote*]All the technological innovation that took place in Europe and America - satellite technology, rocketry, etc., has been picked up and used without all the preliminary development having to be repeated.[*quote]
Are you aware that Indian space program was at the receiving end of sanctions by US from 1970? That also meant that India was denied the technology that you say has been picked up, almost all the time. Even now the ISRO is under sanctions by the US [check your sanctions list] even after being an ally of US for quite some years, We effectively had to reinvent the wheel again, again and again due to these policies. If India can thank any one for at least some portion of their rocketry to any one , it is the erstwhile USSR and Russians who provided a lot of help in the maturing years of ISRO.
Please do not assume that any technology developed in the world, be it in the sphere of Rocketry or Nuclear programs is immediatly derived from the US, because there are other countries in the world that have the same knowhow and resources to develope the same independently.
I am not at all familiar with indian astronomy , and i'll take your word for it on the dcoument:), as I had noted before, It was just the first result of a google search page,:)
How ever my contention was that "The authors (or the maintainors - of these texts) never left their names in the body of literature or text." : - which is different from texts like geethagovindam by jayadeva, which says explicitly "Ithi jayadeva virachitham" *In the body of text* with out which the text would remain incomplete.
I also mentioned that "We can only guess at the people who created those ancient texts from other sources." - which is also to say that people of their time probably knew who the authors were, and recorded them in their own communications or works, much as we know who the author/s of "vi" or "emacs" is even if they dont include the change logs or credits screen. [they do include but try and imagine they dont:)]
I do not refute your contention " there have been none where the author seemed to have willingly chosen to remain anonymous;" as I have explained above.
probably this: - "There is an ancient hindu tradition of creating anonymous works." - is the confusing part, If it is, please read it with the explanation above.
Hey, even in oss world, not every one has commit rights to every tree.:)
ps:
from here some anonymous texts on astronomy: Candracchayanayanopavah, Chayaganita (four different volumes), and Suryacchayadiganita (two different works), [result of a google search.:) ]
dont take it as authoritative source.
How about vedas and upanishads ?, though they speak of people, it never mentions the ones who'd done it:),,
Other than that I dont have any specific works i know of, [mostly because I got the idea from the essays I have read on the subject, and I am unable to check if the authors have really left their name in the works due to my inability to understand classical sanscrit.]
but I do not think that they are going to make another lisp or scheme. They are writing perl and
the perl6 language feels very different from scheme or lisp programs.
On the approach of perl6 to language design, I find the approach taken in apocalypses and
exegesis to be quite good in explaining what they are thinking about and what they want to implement,
and are on par with the essays and responses that you have archieved on your site. They too are
taking the slow road to implementation, with emphasis on each and every aspect of the language, from
VM to syntax.
While groups like ll1 and langsmiths have quite interesting languages, most of them do not provide a
consistent and integrated approach to all problems, (most explores some interesting ideas to the limit,
but does not look at other aspects or is founded on a consistant approach.)
I do not see many interesting new ideas in the common-lisp world, or in the scheme world.
(the RnRS process seems to be dead for some time.) and the language you mentioned (Goo) does not seem
to offer the kind of ideas that you look for in a next generation language.
From what I know, Arc, and perl6 seems to be the only? initiatives that promices to go forward
on implementing a better general purpose language and Arc is the only one from the lisp family, and that
is the reason for many of us are anxious to know more about Arc.
My gut feeling is that you may not have to worry about the ecosystem that has grown around current
successful languages, but rather, about the people that you want to reach with your language, and if languages like perl are able to claim all the features that we claim to be what makes lisp different, then you might as well expect a lesser mindshare in the target group.
(I believe that it is not just these features alone that makes lisp what it is but the whole
language, the way it is designed, the freedom it gives, and the way you can think in it, etc. but you still need to advance and you still need to attract the people who will be able to appreciate it, and adding all the features that you have outlined in you essays (including macros) to perl or python for that matter,
wont make them lisp. (it may make them better languages, but not lisp.))
-I think you are going to find perl6 targeted towards the same segment of people that Arc is targeted to-
I would really like to see some articles on what you have implemented in Arc, and why they were done so,
or what you are thinking would be nice to do, I request this because it gives us a better and deeper understanding of many facets of the language on following through the discussions or articles that details why some thing was done a particular way. It makes the language a lot more transparent and a lot less imposing if I can find some discussions or articles on the approach taken.
you do not have to think of it as a dead line but more as an ongoing discussion or a philosophical argument if that will help it.
There is an ancient hindu tradition of creating anonymous works. The authors (or the maintainors) never left their names in the body of literature or text. We can only guess at the people who created those ancient texts from other sources. The reasoning for doing that [i guess] was that, the work if it can, will survive because of its own ability and the fame for that work is same as fame for its author. It is perhaps the same thing that prompts us to contribute to the OSS - so that we can feel that at least a part of our selves survive through them.
The space elivator project needs materials strong enough to with stand the tension of its own weight, and we already have carbon nano fibers that provide 60-70% of the strength needed to make it a reality. If this new technique can get us to the magic strength, we are probably in the threashhold of a new era.
?the "average user" of Orkut is Brazilian,"
No, The last time i looked the brazilians were only 43% of the total users. The average users are *international* not brazilians.
Did any one try it on Freebsd ?
I got around to compiling and installing it [with a little tweaking of ldflags perhaps]
now I am stuck at starting Xwnc
It says It is unable to bind to listeners, and I am unable to find *any* docs on Xwnc..
any one?? any one??
I haver read that this kind of thing (finger-prining foreigners) was in use in india under the british rule during the world war times.
It was stopped when some japaneese who visited India was forcibly finger-printed, which caused Japan to forcibly finger-print and leg-print! some english visitors to the country.
[I wish more developers however would come together under one roof
and make he all-in-one super-ninja-hop-chop-socky OS]
According to what standards ? or better whose standards? Do you honestly think that all the needs of the diverse environments can be filled by a single os? Think of the difference between the server , desktop and mainframe,
Second, is the cross-distro-platform thing desirable always? doesn't it also mean that you get the denominator of all but not the 100% for the particular platform?
Third, what happens when the super-ninja approach is proved wrong, or when it hits a wall (where radical innovation is no more possible or is painful) as it seems to be happening in X servers
surely it is better to have on of the alternatives at hand (that may not have the limitations) than having to invent something from the scratch
It would be cool to see this thing use a unicycle like embrio
Since that already have balancing techniques etc built into it, it might be even easier to use it.
may be by the time we feel thoroughly bored, we could die by choice, that wont be too bad considering the fact that you have seen all you want to see and had utilized the life to the full.
Eclipse was one of the IDE's i tried and i liked its ability to manage the ant files. It is slower than JBuilder , but as i said I was not comparing JBuilder with other Java IDE's but with the IDEs that are implemented natively.
I had to start with JBuilder 5 and now on 8 but i prefer the faster native text editors to do the coding any time.
*Speed, try JBuilder (every C++ user complains about how horrible java is, then they code in JBuilder, and bitch again. Then you tell them JBuilder is built COMPLETELY with java, not C++, and they don't believe you).*
Yes I believe you, because i have the misfortune of coding in Jbuilder - Yes in java - and i hunger for an ide that is a little more responsible to my commands These days i make do with textpad when i can help it.
Before talking about jbuilder's speed, run the visual c++ 6 ide, or the visual java ide (now defunct but still gives you a feel of how responsive an ide can be), and see the difference (I dont know what happened for the VS.net because it is again painfully slow.)
another point,
i am not sure how many people actualy use JBuilder for coding in c++ There are so many better IDE's available for c++? And who does not understand that it is not native:P i mean the difference is there for all to see - at least in windows platforms, the absence of native widgets is a dead give away,
I do my coding in a p3 in office and the p2 i have at home, recently i had the chance to try out one of the p4s. Even in these the response of this IDE is nothing to romp home about , It has become bareable that is all.
Perhaps you are fortunate to code in the latest p4's but not every one does it that way.
Re:A (hopefully) unbiased opinion on Perl v. Pytho
on
Python in a Nutshell
·
· Score: 1
Have you tried doing any thing in perl or more possibly any other programming language other than python?
From your comment i get the impression that you have not touched serious code in your life.
How much hand holding do u need ?
Or is it that you have some problem with reading english?
The perl provides good documentation on how to use the features and libraries and has an efficient way of organising it. I dont have any thing against the python documentation or the language. It is different from other language and i like the difference. But that is not to say that other languages are full of shit.
If you really want to compare things , please do us a favour and try using the things first.
I have just finished the novel Prey by Michael Crichton. He too talks about nano bots (With the interesting idea of self replicating self aware swarms of nano bots that preys on other living beings thrown in..) The author of this article too seems to have read this book...
Please,
I use JBuilder 8 now(used most versions)
and have used Codeguide JDeveloper and what not, to find one that could give me the responsiveness i was looking for. My system is a P-3 with 512 mb of ram (Corporate developement envt.) but even with this much memmory it simply doesn't cut it. Yes i have seen these IDEs run a little faster in the latest p-4s but i wont say it is any where as fast as the native ones
why is tomcat an order of performance slower than apache ?
why have i never found an IDE implemented in java (even very general purpose ones like text editors) which provide the same response as that of editors implemented in native code ? (oh yes yes yes the native library thingies.. but try to understand why they are faster.)
Next,
Java is probably not a scripting language because it fails to provide the higher level of abstraction (I am not talking about OO here) so common of scripting languages.(Yes it provides a useful set of libraries but that is a different thing from abstraction)
and Last
What you said about pico java is totaly out of context. The printers implement a postscript intrepretor in their circuitory, does it make programing in postscript any more non scripting language ?. If that is what you want to do, just grab a c compiler and modify it to compile java programs into native code instead.
yes , I do work in java 1.4.1 , tomcat , and have tried most java IDEs. but i have seen better environments.
do you think it will hurt the open source movement one bit if the apple suddenly decides to - get up and go - ?? apple being a commercial company does not impact on their contribution in any significant way.
it is a cumulative process we have , cumulative on all parties.. , so long as we stay together , it benifits every body. the moment one decides to leave, he looses the share of developement that accumulates with other players in the ring. But what ever he has put in , remains with both him and community.
Slashdot Mirror
m$w:hey but then by that time you were forcing me into two somes with that naughty grub & linux !! That was bad, really really bad,..
how could i ever forgive u ??
I cant help thinking that it is in the same league as that of women wanting to marry death row convicts :=
[link]Morbid fascination ??
They can't do that, They have no right to be good. or who else do we look up to when it comes to evil?
Unlike NASA[link to orbiter loss] We, and the rest of the world actualy use International *SI* units :)
Are you aware that Indian space program was at the receiving end of sanctions by US from 1970? That also meant that India was denied the technology that you say has been picked up, almost all the time. Even now the ISRO is under sanctions by the US [check your sanctions list] even after being an ally of US for quite some years, We effectively had to reinvent the wheel again, again and again due to these policies.
If India can thank any one for at least some portion of their rocketry to any one , it is the erstwhile USSR and Russians who provided a lot of help in the maturing years of ISRO.
Please do not assume that any technology developed in the world, be it in the sphere of Rocketry or Nuclear programs is immediatly derived from the US, because there are other countries in the world that have the same knowhow and resources to develope the same independently.
How ever my contention was that "The authors (or the maintainors - of these texts) never left their names in the body of literature or text." : - which is different from texts like geethagovindam by jayadeva, which says explicitly "Ithi jayadeva virachitham" *In the body of text* with out which the text would remain incomplete.
I also mentioned that "We can only guess at the people who created those ancient texts from other sources." - which is also to say that people of their time probably knew who the authors were, and recorded them in their own communications or works, much as we know who the author/s of "vi" or "emacs" is even if they dont include the change logs or credits screen. [they do include but try and imagine they dont :)]
I do not refute your contention " there have been none where the author seemed to have willingly chosen to remain anonymous;" as I have explained above.
probably this: - "There is an ancient hindu tradition of creating anonymous works." - is the confusing part, If it is, please read it with the explanation above.
ps: from here some anonymous texts on astronomy: Candracchayanayanopavah, Chayaganita (four different volumes), and Suryacchayadiganita (two different works), [result of a google search. :) ]
dont take it as authoritative source.
Other than that I dont have any specific works i know of, [mostly because I got the idea from the essays I have read on the subject, and I am unable to check if the authors have really left their name in the works due to my inability to understand classical sanscrit.]
I would point you to these two links as an answer to your question.
perl macros
Other things they are thinking about
but I do not think that they are going to make another lisp or scheme. They are writing perl and the perl6 language feels very different from scheme or lisp programs.
On the approach of perl6 to language design, I find the approach taken in apocalypses and exegesis to be quite good in explaining what they are thinking about and what they want to implement, and are on par with the essays and responses that you have archieved on your site. They too are taking the slow road to implementation, with emphasis on each and every aspect of the language, from VM to syntax.
While groups like ll1 and langsmiths have quite interesting languages, most of them do not provide a consistent and integrated approach to all problems, (most explores some interesting ideas to the limit, but does not look at other aspects or is founded on a consistant approach.)
I do not see many interesting new ideas in the common-lisp world, or in the scheme world. (the RnRS process seems to be dead for some time.) and the language you mentioned (Goo) does not seem to offer the kind of ideas that you look for in a next generation language.
From what I know, Arc, and perl6 seems to be the only? initiatives that promices to go forward on implementing a better general purpose language and Arc is the only one from the lisp family, and that is the reason for many of us are anxious to know more about Arc.
My gut feeling is that you may not have to worry about the ecosystem that has grown around current successful languages, but rather, about the people that you want to reach with your language, and if languages like perl are able to claim all the features that we claim to be what makes lisp different, then you might as well expect a lesser mindshare in the target group.
(I believe that it is not just these features alone that makes lisp what it is but the whole language, the way it is designed, the freedom it gives, and the way you can think in it, etc. but you still need to advance and you still need to attract the people who will be able to appreciate it, and adding all the features that you have outlined in you essays (including macros) to perl or python for that matter, wont make them lisp. (it may make them better languages, but not lisp.))
-I think you are going to find perl6 targeted towards the same segment of people that Arc is targeted to-
I would really like to see some articles on what you have implemented in Arc, and why they were done so, or what you are thinking would be nice to do, I request this because it gives us a better and deeper understanding of many facets of the language on following through the discussions or articles that details why some thing was done a particular way. It makes the language a lot more transparent and a lot less imposing if I can find some discussions or articles on the approach taken.
you do not have to think of it as a dead line but more as an ongoing discussion or a philosophical argument if that will help it.
There is an ancient hindu tradition of creating anonymous works.
The authors (or the maintainors) never left their names in the body of literature or text. We can only guess at the people who created those ancient texts from other sources. The reasoning for doing that [i guess] was that, the work if it can, will survive because of its own ability and the fame for that work is same as fame for its author.
It is perhaps the same thing that prompts us to contribute to the OSS - so that we can feel that at least a part of our selves survive through them.
The space elivator project needs materials strong enough to with stand the tension of its own weight, and we already have carbon nano fibers that provide 60-70% of the strength needed to make it a reality. If this new technique can get us to the magic strength, we are probably in the threashhold of a new era.
?the "average user" of Orkut is Brazilian,"
No, The last time i looked the brazilians were only 43% of the total users. The average users are *international* not brazilians.
Did any one try it on Freebsd ? I got around to compiling and installing it [with a little tweaking of ldflags perhaps] now I am stuck at starting Xwnc It says It is unable to bind to listeners, and I am unable to find *any* docs on Xwnc.. any one?? any one??
cant find the google link right now
I haver read that this kind of thing (finger-prining foreigners) was in use in india under the british rule during the world war times.
It was stopped when some japaneese who visited India was forcibly finger-printed, which caused Japan to forcibly finger-print and leg-print! some english visitors to the country.
and make he all-in-one super-ninja-hop-chop-socky OS]
According to what standards ? or better whose standards?
Do you honestly think that all the needs of the diverse environments can be filled by a single os? Think of the difference between the server , desktop and mainframe,
Second, is the cross-distro-platform thing desirable always? doesn't it also mean that you get the denominator of all but not the 100% for the particular platform?
Third, what happens when the super-ninja approach is proved wrong, or when it hits a wall (where radical innovation is no more possible or is painful) as it seems to be happening in X servers
surely it is better to have on of the alternatives at hand (that may not have the limitations) than having to invent something from the scratch
It would be cool to see this thing use a unicycle like embrio
Since that already have balancing techniques etc built into it, it might be even easier to use it.
may be by the time we feel thoroughly bored, we could die by choice,
that wont be too bad considering the fact that you have seen all you want to see and had utilized the life to the full.
Eclipse was one of the IDE's i tried and i liked its ability to manage the ant files. It is slower than JBuilder , but as i said I was not comparing JBuilder with other Java IDE's but with the IDEs that are implemented natively.
I had to start with JBuilder 5 and now on 8 but i prefer the faster native text editors to do the coding any time.
Yes I believe you, because i have the misfortune of coding in Jbuilder - Yes in java - and i hunger for an ide that is a little more responsible to my commands
These days i make do with textpad when i can help it.
Before talking about jbuilder's speed, run the visual c++ 6 ide, or the visual java ide (now defunct but still gives you a feel of how responsive an ide can be), and see the difference (I dont know what happened for the VS.net because it is again painfully slow.)
another point, i am not sure how many people actualy use JBuilder for coding in c++ There are so many better IDE's available for c++? And who does not understand that it is not native :P i mean the difference is there for all to see - at least in windows platforms, the absence of native widgets is a dead give away,
I do my coding in a p3 in office and the p2 i have at home, recently i had the chance to try out one of the p4s. Even in these the response of this IDE is nothing to romp home about , It has become bareable that is all.
Perhaps you are fortunate to code in the latest p4's but not every one does it that way.
cute sig.
From your comment i get the impression that you have not touched serious code in your life.
How much hand holding do u need ?
Or is it that you have some problem with reading english?
The perl provides good documentation on how to use the features and libraries and has an efficient way of organising it. I dont have any thing against the python documentation or the language. It is different from other language and i like the difference. But that is not to say that other languages are full of shit.
If you really want to compare things , please do us a favour and try using the things first.
I have just finished the novel Prey
by Michael Crichton. He too talks about nano bots (With the interesting idea of self replicating self aware swarms of nano bots that preys on other living beings thrown in..) The author of this article too seems to have read this book...
Please ,
I use JBuilder 8 now(used most versions) and have used Codeguide JDeveloper and what not, to find one that could give me the responsiveness i was looking for.
My system is a P-3 with 512 mb of ram (Corporate developement envt.) but even with this much memmory it simply doesn't cut it. Yes i have seen these IDEs run a little faster in the latest p-4s but i wont say it is any where as fast as the native ones
If all you say is true
why is tomcat an order of performance slower than apache ?
why have i never found an IDE implemented in java
(even very general purpose ones like text editors) which provide the same response as that of editors implemented in native code ? (oh yes yes yes the native library thingies.. but try to understand why they are faster.)
Next,
Java is probably not a scripting language because it fails to provide the higher level of abstraction (I am not talking about OO here) so common of scripting languages.(Yes it provides a useful set of libraries but that is a different thing from abstraction)
and Last
What you said about pico java is totaly out of context. The printers implement a postscript intrepretor in their circuitory, does it make programing in postscript any more non scripting language ?. If that is what you want to do, just grab a c compiler and modify it to compile java programs into native code instead.
yes , I do work in java 1.4.1 , tomcat , and have tried most java IDEs. but i have seen better environments.
four legs good two legs baaaddd!!!!
do you think it will hurt the open source movement one bit if the apple suddenly decides to - get up and go - ??
apple being a commercial company does not impact on their contribution in any significant way.
it is a cumulative process we have , cumulative on all parties.. ,
so long as we stay together , it benifits every body. the moment one decides to leave, he looses the share of developement that accumulates with other players in the ring.
But what ever he has put in , remains with both him and community.