I think the date on Rubber v. Glue is wrong, because I remember that one being cited during several cases in the Jefferson Elementary 1st Grade Circuit Court as early as 1972.
I discovered that #1 was available to anyone for the asking. #2 would've been moot just 10 years later. If I were 10 years younger, I might have never gone to college. I did eventually get around to finish my degree.
So, you'd be prejudiced against me, who paid for 90%+ of his college degree out of his own pocket (no student loans!), going to class from 8am to 1pm, working from 3pm to 11pm, coming home at midnight to split wood to heat his house for another day so he could get up at 6:30am the next day to do it all over again? Yeah, a damn shame I wasn't a self-motivated go-getter.
I can tell you for a fact that a proper college education has nothing to do with spoon-feeding. A person who knows how to learn also knows that sometimes just having a book and a computer isn't enough and you need a mentor to push you to the next level. College isn't the only source for such people, granted, but it's none the worse for its nonexclusivity.
I agree that a degree doesn't make someone a good IT person, but to hold it against them sounds to me like reverse snobbery.
I clearly realize that addressing misconceptions are important. I'm not questioning your motives, or your work (which is damn fine, IMHO). I'm just believe your tactics are off. With respect to Google and open source, you are a 4 to 5 star general. To stretch the military analogy (too far?), replies to individual posts are something that should be handled at the squad level (okay, Slashdot might need a platoon or even a whole company:-). Generals shouldn't go beating the bush hunting snipers. What are you going to do when 20 people post things like this? 100? Are you going to read at -1 to make sure you get everyone? I'm sure you've got better things to do with your time.
I still disagree with you about "credentials", though. I believe you get off your high horse yourself when you do that. I think you make your point better (and more succinctly) without resorting to it. You can just point to all the work you guys have put out to the open source world. Some people will be bound and determined to hate you no matter what you do. Some people will praise you and always believe you do no wrong. Most people will make decisions based on what they see and when someone perceived to be at the top takes a defense "well, what have YOU done" tone, I believe it works against you. If you want to clear up misconceptions, then you should very much care about Google's under/overdog status. People perceive what you say differently given on how they view you.
I'm coming off like I'm bagging on you, and I'm not meaning to. I'm trying (in my own way) to help. I think that most people realize the things you've done and you damn well deserve credit for them. All I'm saying is just stress what you've done and not worry about what your critics have done.
Can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. When you're visible, you make a good target. Sorry. It's not fair, but that's life.
Chris, you're going to have to come to the realization that Google is not perceived as any sort of an upstart or underdog anymore. You and your company are likely best served by just letting people rant a little. I appreciate your position, but don't fall into the trap of criticizing muckrakers. Your "what have you done" comment is really beneath you. I understand your anger (and think you have some justification for it), but there are some people who make many contributions to open source projects but not feel a special need to brag about it. It's this close to asking him to whip it out and see who has a bigger dick.
On the other hand, searching both for "dead puppies" yields a "dog training secrets" ad at the top of Yahoo's, but from Google (on the ad bar on the right side), I get an offer from ConsumerIncentivePrograms.com for $500 and dead puppies "enter your zip code and get yours".
I'm really not sure which is worse, but they're both pretty damn funny. Of course, I'm a sick bastard, so...
Don't build your life around hating the "wrong people" so much you reject their donations to a patent pool.
A careful reading of what Perens said will reveal what he meant by "wrong people". The people who would put such patents in a pool are already friendly to open source, and are thus least likely to start trouble for open source products.
I see his point. Putting patents in a pool like this is a noble gesture, and it's certainly useful that these patented techniques will be allowed in open source software, but it doesn't buy open source much in the way of legal protection.
Mine is only 60, but my parents are still on dialup and they live (according to yahoo maps) 2064 miles away. I have no doubt my dad could handle it today, but he also has some work related Windows only programs (don't ask me what they are, I don't know except that they're proprietary to his employer) , and I can't give him very good support given distance plus bandwidth restrictions.:-)
If you do, you'll be surprised how quickly computing's holy wars cease to be of interest.
I wonder if that's a function of just getting older. I'm almost 38, and still primarily a technical professional, and it's not really that interesting to me either. I do happen to use Linux at home because I've just always liked to work with Unix-like things. I buy Windows software and run it under Cedega or Crossover mostly because I hate dual booting. No freaking way am I going to tell my Dad to run Linux. He's not computer technical at all, and I wouldn't do that to him.
Once I sell my house, I'm very likely to get a full-time Windows machine up for development work. My last Microsoft project (not counting a brief stint as a glorified typist and NT power toggler in 1999) was in Visual Basic 3.0. I've got a lot of catching up to do.
Never is a word that has a way of biting one in the ass. I totally agree with you... today. Even in the next 10 years, you're probably right. Within the next 50? I don't know if that's a sure bet.
I recall a website that allowed people to bet on future events and put their money where their mouth is. I would be willing to put down a $1000 bet that a chip implantation in humans bill will pass a house of the United States Congress in the next 40 years if you'll pay 5 to 1? Should be easy money for you if you really think it would never happen.
Clarification: My bet is such a rule will only pass either the House or the Senate, not actually become law. I would also be willing to index the bet to inflation, because I think we're likely to have a large bout of inflation a couple times between now and 2045, and it would be good to keep the bet interesting.
Of course they had the right. I don't know how it works for terrestrial based projects, but in space missions, a team wins a contract with NASA to fly an experiment on a spacecraft. The gist of the contract is: We will put your experiment on our spacecraft. We will give you money to operate in and maintain it. In return, you will release all data to the public after a certain period of time (typically 6 months). I imagine the terms are similar in essence, if not in detail, for research done from Earth.
This gives scientists good reasons (funding, prestige, and first crack at the data) to come up with interesting instrument proposals and in return, we (the human race) eventually get all the data.
Regardless of this contract, it always behooves a scientist to cautiously verify their observations and conclusions. Look up Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann as a hard example of what happens when scientists jump the gun on making discoveries public.
Google makes its income through advertising by having a good search engine. This guy from Microsoft isn't just any Microsoft guy. He was the vice president who was responsible for MSN search. It's pretty clear to me there's a conflict here with even the most reasonable of non-compete agreements.
Much as it pains me to say it, I think Microsoft is the good guy in this instance. Google trying to use the fact they're based in California as an excuse to nullify the contract is pretty shady, IMO.
I really believe that if one were to take what's going on here and s/Microsoft/Red Hat/ and s/Google/SCO/ that more people here would be other side of the issue.
Or, maybe, you could, y'know, ask before you accept the job if you'll have to sign NDAs or non-competes and to have them before you formally accept the job. And if they say there aren't any, maybe get that in writing, perhaps in your formal offer letter?
If you jump to a new job without at least a few months (at least 3, 6 is better) emergency reserves, especially if you relocate, and especially if you have a family depending on you, you're playing with fire while soaked in gasoline. Even without contract surprises, you're still likely a probational employee, and the last hired. One decision by the board like "we have to cut payroll by 10%" and you're out the door.
If I were to ever use a computer and a laser printer for counterfeiting purposes, you can be damn sure I'd never *ever* hook either system up to any network.
I don't remember to send in rebate forms half the time anyway.:-)
Erm, how about leaving people in other countries the fuck alone and not prop up the dickheads that run their countries?
There's a lot that devout Muslims don't like about western culture, but it's not Showtime soft porn and non-Halal spicy chicken soft tacos that's driving some of them to kill.
But, I understand that actually minding one's own business just isn't fashionable anymore, so we can't do that.
but if your code work does not either cut expenses or add revenue to your employer/client by at least the cost of your labor, expect to be out of a job soon*. That's all "value added" really means.
Also, comments matter as much if not more than the code. I'm not talking about stupid crap like:
i++;// increment i
I've seen stuff like that, and it's worthless. But real comments stating what problem you're trying to solve, and how you're solving it. Without that, what's to say the code is right or wrong? It's so easy to duff up a complex condition with misplaced punctuation or an AND in place of an OR. Explaining this condition in the code will help yourself and others understand what you mean when the code isn't quite saying it. Meatspace is still the Real World(tm), no matter how much we might wish it were otherwise.
* - an obvious exception is basic research work where it's pretty hard to quantify the value of what's done. Another exception is stuff one writes for the pure joy of it.
I don't know about you, but for me, hard != uninteresting. In fact, I think that for me easy = really boring. I surely don't want to implement recursive binary tree traversal, because I've already worked through it, understood it, and moved on. It was fun at the time, though, because it was all new then.
Just for clarity: Being a libertarian and being a member of the Libertarian Party are not synonymous. Like any other broad political ethos, there is considerable disagreement within it on various points.
Most libertarians are instinctively antiwar, as it is generally recognized that war is the activity that usually gives the most power to the state. If you've ever seen this site, while they publish opinion from all over the political spectrum, it is run by a libertarian organization (but not the LP).
My libertarianism is one that is against capital punishment, not so much because it's morally wrong, but the state cannot undo it or pay a commensurate price if it executes an innocent person. Others have different views.
To answer your question, "will the LP help me?" In my opinion, not really. I used to be a member, but left about 8 years ago when I figured out that they're just as corrupt as other political parties, except they don't have the power to actually screw with my life. I still consider myself a libertarian, with a decent anarchist streak.
Well, I probably just stirred up a nest of flamethrower wielding hornets, so I'll just leave it at that.
Translation: I disagree with you, therefore you must be psychotic or ignorant.
To dip my toe in ad hominem for a moment, did you buy that low ID on Ebay, or what?
I don't think the GP was talking about the rank and file. I work with a guy who used to work for Microsoft. From what I've seen, he's damn fine engineer. I've seen (and occasionally worked for) companies that are chock full of bright, motivated engineers and designers but still managed to put out substandard products because of higher ups who were either incapable or unwilling to listen to engineers who would say "This isn't ready as a product yet" or "there are problems". This happens so often it's practically cliche'.
Hmmm, I'm a libertarian and I don't believe any such thing. In fact, I recognize a corporation for what it is: A governmental construct and as such, it is eligible to be created, regulated, modified, and destroyed by said governments. I assert that where a corporate interest collides with individual liberty, that individual liberty should hold sway.
As a libertarian, I believe in free markets, not this corporatist-mercantilist monster that they pass off as free markets. I firmly believe the corporations have too much power and something needs to be done to check this power.
You were warned about the switchover nearly (maybe even more than) a decade ago; you have had plenty of time to prepare
But the warning was in the basement, in the bottom of the bottom drawer of a filing cabinet, in an un-used lavatory with a placard stating "Beware of Leopard."
Slashdot Mirror
I think the date on Rubber v. Glue is wrong, because I remember that one being cited during several cases in the Jefferson Elementary 1st Grade Circuit Court as early as 1972.
For my part, I went to college for two things:
I discovered that #1 was available to anyone for the asking. #2 would've been moot just 10 years later. If I were 10 years younger, I might have never gone to college. I did eventually get around to finish my degree.
So, you'd be prejudiced against me, who paid for 90%+ of his college degree out of his own pocket (no student loans!), going to class from 8am to 1pm, working from 3pm to 11pm, coming home at midnight to split wood to heat his house for another day so he could get up at 6:30am the next day to do it all over again? Yeah, a damn shame I wasn't a self-motivated go-getter.
I can tell you for a fact that a proper college education has nothing to do with spoon-feeding. A person who knows how to learn also knows that sometimes just having a book and a computer isn't enough and you need a mentor to push you to the next level. College isn't the only source for such people, granted, but it's none the worse for its nonexclusivity.
I agree that a degree doesn't make someone a good IT person, but to hold it against them sounds to me like reverse snobbery.
Yes, it's certainly a crippling blow to the mainframe industry that IBM's mainframe sales grew a paltry 18% to 5.3 billion dollars from '03 to '04.
Yes, death of the mainframe predicted. Film at 11.
On a scale from 1 to 5?
I clearly realize that addressing misconceptions are important. I'm not questioning your motives, or your work (which is damn fine, IMHO). I'm just believe your tactics are off. With respect to Google and open source, you are a 4 to 5 star general. To stretch the military analogy (too far?), replies to individual posts are something that should be handled at the squad level (okay, Slashdot might need a platoon or even a whole company :-). Generals shouldn't go beating the bush hunting snipers. What are you going to do when 20 people post things like this? 100? Are you going to read at -1 to make sure you get everyone? I'm sure you've got better things to do with your time.
I still disagree with you about "credentials", though. I believe you get off your high horse yourself when you do that. I think you make your point better (and more succinctly) without resorting to it. You can just point to all the work you guys have put out to the open source world. Some people will be bound and determined to hate you no matter what you do. Some people will praise you and always believe you do no wrong. Most people will make decisions based on what they see and when someone perceived to be at the top takes a defense "well, what have YOU done" tone, I believe it works against you. If you want to clear up misconceptions, then you should very much care about Google's under/overdog status. People perceive what you say differently given on how they view you.
I'm coming off like I'm bagging on you, and I'm not meaning to. I'm trying (in my own way) to help. I think that most people realize the things you've done and you damn well deserve credit for them. All I'm saying is just stress what you've done and not worry about what your critics have done.
Can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. When you're visible, you make a good target. Sorry. It's not fair, but that's life.
Chris, you're going to have to come to the realization that Google is not perceived as any sort of an upstart or underdog anymore. You and your company are likely best served by just letting people rant a little. I appreciate your position, but don't fall into the trap of criticizing muckrakers. Your "what have you done" comment is really beneath you. I understand your anger (and think you have some justification for it), but there are some people who make many contributions to open source projects but not feel a special need to brag about it. It's this close to asking him to whip it out and see who has a bigger dick.
On the other hand, searching both for "dead puppies" yields a "dog training secrets" ad at the top of Yahoo's, but from Google (on the ad bar on the right side), I get an offer from ConsumerIncentivePrograms.com for $500 and dead puppies "enter your zip code and get yours".
I'm really not sure which is worse, but they're both pretty damn funny. Of course, I'm a sick bastard, so...
Don't build your life around hating the "wrong people" so much you reject their donations to a patent pool.
A careful reading of what Perens said will reveal what he meant by "wrong people". The people who would put such patents in a pool are already friendly to open source, and are thus least likely to start trouble for open source products.
I see his point. Putting patents in a pool like this is a noble gesture, and it's certainly useful that these patented techniques will be allowed in open source software, but it doesn't buy open source much in the way of legal protection.
Mine is only 60, but my parents are still on dialup and they live (according to yahoo maps) 2064 miles away. I have no doubt my dad could handle it today, but he also has some work related Windows only programs (don't ask me what they are, I don't know except that they're proprietary to his employer) , and I can't give him very good support given distance plus bandwidth restrictions. :-)
I wonder if that's a function of just getting older. I'm almost 38, and still primarily a technical professional, and it's not really that interesting to me either. I do happen to use Linux at home because I've just always liked to work with Unix-like things. I buy Windows software and run it under Cedega or Crossover mostly because I hate dual booting. No freaking way am I going to tell my Dad to run Linux. He's not computer technical at all, and I wouldn't do that to him.
Once I sell my house, I'm very likely to get a full-time Windows machine up for development work. My last Microsoft project (not counting a brief stint as a glorified typist and NT power toggler in 1999) was in Visual Basic 3.0. I've got a lot of catching up to do.
Never is a word that has a way of biting one in the ass. I totally agree with you... today. Even in the next 10 years, you're probably right. Within the next 50? I don't know if that's a sure bet.
I recall a website that allowed people to bet on future events and put their money where their mouth is. I would be willing to put down a $1000 bet that a chip implantation in humans bill will pass a house of the United States Congress in the next 40 years if you'll pay 5 to 1? Should be easy money for you if you really think it would never happen.
Clarification: My bet is such a rule will only pass either the House or the Senate, not actually become law. I would also be willing to index the bet to inflation, because I think we're likely to have a large bout of inflation a couple times between now and 2045, and it would be good to keep the bet interesting.
Of course they had the right. I don't know how it works for terrestrial based projects, but in space missions, a team wins a contract with NASA to fly an experiment on a spacecraft. The gist of the contract is: We will put your experiment on our spacecraft. We will give you money to operate in and maintain it. In return, you will release all data to the public after a certain period of time (typically 6 months). I imagine the terms are similar in essence, if not in detail, for research done from Earth.
This gives scientists good reasons (funding, prestige, and first crack at the data) to come up with interesting instrument proposals and in return, we (the human race) eventually get all the data.
Regardless of this contract, it always behooves a scientist to cautiously verify their observations and conclusions. Look up Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann as a hard example of what happens when scientists jump the gun on making discoveries public.
in a transfer of overinvoiced funds from the Lagos Oil Trust Bank in Nigeria. Your discretion is appreciated.
(Pretend the last paragraph was in all caps.)
Google makes its income through advertising by having a good search engine. This guy from Microsoft isn't just any Microsoft guy. He was the vice president who was responsible for MSN search. It's pretty clear to me there's a conflict here with even the most reasonable of non-compete agreements.
Much as it pains me to say it, I think Microsoft is the good guy in this instance. Google trying to use the fact they're based in California as an excuse to nullify the contract is pretty shady, IMO.
I really believe that if one were to take what's going on here and s/Microsoft/Red Hat/ and s/Google/SCO/ that more people here would be other side of the issue.Or, maybe, you could, y'know, ask before you accept the job if you'll have to sign NDAs or non-competes and to have them before you formally accept the job. And if they say there aren't any, maybe get that in writing, perhaps in your formal offer letter?
If you jump to a new job without at least a few months (at least 3, 6 is better) emergency reserves, especially if you relocate, and especially if you have a family depending on you, you're playing with fire while soaked in gasoline. Even without contract surprises, you're still likely a probational employee, and the last hired. One decision by the board like "we have to cut payroll by 10%" and you're out the door.
If I were to ever use a computer and a laser printer for counterfeiting purposes, you can be damn sure I'd never *ever* hook either system up to any network.
I don't remember to send in rebate forms half the time anyway. :-)
Erm, how about leaving people in other countries the fuck alone and not prop up the dickheads that run their countries?
There's a lot that devout Muslims don't like about western culture, but it's not Showtime soft porn and non-Halal spicy chicken soft tacos that's driving some of them to kill.
But, I understand that actually minding one's own business just isn't fashionable anymore, so we can't do that.
but if your code work does not either cut expenses or add revenue to your employer/client by at least the cost of your labor, expect to be out of a job soon*. That's all "value added" really means.
Also, comments matter as much if not more than the code. I'm not talking about stupid crap like:
I've seen stuff like that, and it's worthless. But real comments stating what problem you're trying to solve, and how you're solving it. Without that, what's to say the code is right or wrong? It's so easy to duff up a complex condition with misplaced punctuation or an AND in place of an OR. Explaining this condition in the code will help yourself and others understand what you mean when the code isn't quite saying it. Meatspace is still the Real World(tm), no matter how much we might wish it were otherwise.
* - an obvious exception is basic research work where it's pretty hard to quantify the value of what's done. Another exception is stuff one writes for the pure joy of it.
I don't know about you, but for me, hard != uninteresting. In fact, I think that for me easy = really boring. I surely don't want to implement recursive binary tree traversal, because I've already worked through it, understood it, and moved on. It was fun at the time, though, because it was all new then.
Just for clarity: Being a libertarian and being a member of the Libertarian Party are not synonymous. Like any other broad political ethos, there is considerable disagreement within it on various points.
Most libertarians are instinctively antiwar, as it is generally recognized that war is the activity that usually gives the most power to the state. If you've ever seen this site, while they publish opinion from all over the political spectrum, it is run by a libertarian organization (but not the LP).
My libertarianism is one that is against capital punishment, not so much because it's morally wrong, but the state cannot undo it or pay a commensurate price if it executes an innocent person. Others have different views.
To answer your question, "will the LP help me?" In my opinion, not really. I used to be a member, but left about 8 years ago when I figured out that they're just as corrupt as other political parties, except they don't have the power to actually screw with my life. I still consider myself a libertarian, with a decent anarchist streak.
Well, I probably just stirred up a nest of flamethrower wielding hornets, so I'll just leave it at that.
60.31.216.151 is an address for the Asia Pacific region. I'd tell you more, but APNIC doesn't seem to work for me right now.
Translation: I disagree with you, therefore you must be psychotic or ignorant.
To dip my toe in ad hominem for a moment, did you buy that low ID on Ebay, or what?
I don't think the GP was talking about the rank and file. I work with a guy who used to work for Microsoft. From what I've seen, he's damn fine engineer. I've seen (and occasionally worked for) companies that are chock full of bright, motivated engineers and designers but still managed to put out substandard products because of higher ups who were either incapable or unwilling to listen to engineers who would say "This isn't ready as a product yet" or "there are problems". This happens so often it's practically cliche'.
Hmmm, I'm a libertarian and I don't believe any such thing. In fact, I recognize a corporation for what it is: A governmental construct and as such, it is eligible to be created, regulated, modified, and destroyed by said governments. I assert that where a corporate interest collides with individual liberty, that individual liberty should hold sway.
As a libertarian, I believe in free markets, not this corporatist-mercantilist monster that they pass off as free markets. I firmly believe the corporations have too much power and something needs to be done to check this power.
But the warning was in the basement, in the bottom of the bottom drawer of a filing cabinet, in an un-used lavatory with a placard stating "Beware of Leopard."
Bless you! I have noticed this trend for some time and this thread was enough for me to sport a new sig.