Former Health Secretary Pushes for VeriChip Implants

An anonymous reader writes "Tommy Thompson, the former Bush Health Secretary after implanting a chip into himself, is going to submit a proposal within the next 50 days to promote it for everyone in the USA. VeriChip spokesperson John Procter said 'virtually everyone could benefit from having a chip inserted.' Enjoy your assimilation in the land of the free, citizen."

Comments

Medical Purposes Only

[DosBubba]

Of course, VeriChips are for medical use only.
This will be introduced as optional and quickly become as voluntary as credit cards, drivers licenses, and cell phones. Sure, you can opt-out of these, but you will never be accepted at a job that requires them.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[derEikopf]

According to Procter, the chips can also be used for financial transactions.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Potor]

This puts the consumer loyalty card thread into perspective, now, doesn't it?

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like Social Security numbers? Hah!

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[RailGunner]

This will be introduced as optional and quickly become as voluntary as credit cards, drivers licenses, and cell phones. Sure, you can opt-out of these, but you will never be accepted at a job that requires them.

Now where have I heard that before?

"He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666" (Rev. 13:16-18).

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[canuck57]

As you point out:

Sure, you can opt-out of these, but you will never be accepted at a job that requires them.

We can add that a credit card is necessary to travel. Sooner or later this chip, or one like it will be required. Saying it is optional is kind of a misnomer if you want a life.

I recently attended a "National Identity Card" presentation and the subject of implants was raised. I initially walked into the conference thinking it was a good idea. But after listening to the speakers it became quite clear this is about population control by government. Business will love it as they can profile you for insurance (all kinds), purchasing habits, travel patterns and target marketing.

I walked out realizing liberty and freedom are in fact at risk from with-in.

Lets realize the fact that 95% of the terrorists of 9/11 and more recent bombings in London had valid papers. They could also have had valid implants too. It is a myth these new technologies of tracking people are any more effective than a tried and relatively cheap passport. Techo hype companies don't like this fact and the population is getting marketing, and not reality message. Good security is about people keeping their eyes open.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Anonymous Coward]

"A stupid child is ruin to a father, and a wife's quarreling is a continual dripping of rain." (Hebrew, Proverbs 19:13)

Man the bible is like a history book but for the future. If god were like a guy living in like today he would be a novel writer person of future.

"When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)

Man this book is filled with a ton of morals and prophecies. Jesus you are the head of me, my bitch wife with one hand is but the servert of thee. Now taketh your implantith awaith from meith. I now understand why people base their knowledge on their bible, they never fuckin read the whole thing.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Oculus Habent]

I see no reason that a chip like this couldn't be carried. Embed the chip into a card or an ID bracelet. Sure, then some people won't have their ID on them at all times, but you can save plenty of lives without tracking people.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Xyrus]

This will never make it out of a commitee. The religious fundis would immediately seize upon this as "the mark of the beast". It's dead even before being submitted.

~X~

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[NitsujTPU]

Yeah, what a campaign:

This product has nice features like "hugs" and "kisses"

Just remember, before you get it implanted, ask the CEO of Verichip "Do you renounce Satan and all of his empty promises?"

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, VeriChips are for medical use only
This will be introduced as optional and quickly become as voluntary as credit cards, drivers licenses, and cell phones. Sure, you can opt-out of these, but you will never be accepted at a job that requires them.

Yes, you've taken the first thinking step, but you've failed to advance beyond it, along with all the other posts in this vein.

Guess what? Like it or not, you already have a unique identifier buried in that body of yours. Given enough time and resources I'm sure a machine could be assembled to read/parse it quickly and possibly even from a distance.

Welcome to the wonderful world of DNA.

The difference between DNA and this chip, of course, is that chips can be programmed. At this juncture you're unlikely to be able to reprogram your own DNA to fake out the analyzer. Identity theft aside, however, it's only a matter of time before you -- yes YOU -- are uniquely identified by your DNA.

Right now it just happens that the chip solution is far more economical. Whatever the eventual identifier is, it will have privacy problems associated with it, and they need to be addressed. Create solutions, don't bitch about the inevitable.

One possible solution to hacked ID chips: make the chip ID reflective of the DNA of the bearer of the chip; if identity needs to be determined, verify the DNA against the code in the chip.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Dun Malg]

This will never make it out of a commitee. The religious fundis would immediately seize upon this as "the mark of the beast". It's dead even before being submitted.

I must say that it is indeed fortunate that the book of Revelation happened to have that little bit about the mark of the beast. For all the absurdity of its source, it's done a respectable amount of work fending off the government's desire to "mark" people with some sort of permanent ID. Some things truly deserve to be "demonized"...

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[pthisis]

We can add that a credit card is necessary to travel.

What does this mean?

I've travelled post 9/11 by plane, bus, and train without a credit card.

As far as a job goes, the only things I've ever been asked for are SSN and proof of citizenship. Never a credit card, drivers license, etc.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, DNA is not absolutely unique in each individual. Identical twins have identical DNA. Interestingly though, their fingerprints are different.

Of course, if someone *really* wants to identify you, there are always going to be ways - some are just much harder than others. All these chips implanted in everything make it much easier, and therefore accessible to anyone that can afford a scanner. Theoretically every time you walk into a store they could log your entry/exit as well as scan your backpack for whatever things you are carrying. The ultimate marketing profiling tool, all without your consent. Very scary indeed.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Wizzmer]

Sure, you can opt-out of these, but you will never be accepted at a job that requires them.

I would never accept a job that requires them.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[SA Stevens]

I have personally and deliberately Opted Out of any job that requires a cell phone.

For that matter, I don't remember being required to show a credit card when applying for my current job, either.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Torham]

I'm really not sure, but can you buy your tickets with cash?

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[aywwts4]

Can you book any decent* hotel without a credit card?

Nope.

Decent defined as a national chain or hotel that does not charge 'by the hour' have vibrating beds and a tub filled with roaches.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Wontsomebodypleaseth]

and maybe we can invade your privacy while there at it those crazy americans

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Anonymous Coward]

But most people will, so all jobs will require them, and you'll be unemployed.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[manboy9]

You mean like the Medicalert bracelets that have been available for years?

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Tim C]

Lets realize the fact that 95% of the terrorists of 9/11 and more recent bombings in London had valid papers.

As I understand it, the London bombers were British citizens. They didn't just have valid papers, but a cast-iron legal right to be in the country. No amount of ID can protect from a legal citizen with no record "suddenly" turning suicide bomber.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Catbeller]

Don't forget drug testing. Purely voluntary -- if you don't mind being unemployed. Of course, only people showing signs of drugging themselves will ever be tested... wasn't that the original purpose?

Man, I thought I was a pessimist. But they're moving so fast towards a corporatist police state that even I'm shocked.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[hackwrench]

I keep telling people that the Drivers License/State I.D. and your signature are the marks of the beast and some people accept it.

Arguments in favor:
It's hard to believe that the preposition 'on' instead of 'of' would make that much difference.
The I.D is the mark of the forehead, and the signature is the mark of the hand.
Your relationships and your ability to influence and do things for people, and their ability to influence and do things for you are things of the spirit and things that happen in that area of life that benefit you are hard to track. However your body is a much more trackable item, and what is a body without spirit but a beast, and your I.D. and signature are generated by direct interaction with your body and thus are marks of the beast.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Allnighterking]

No the fundies will be the sheep that support it. No amount of truth has ever stood in the way of reality. Jim Jones proved this in Guyana. The worship of a god might be strong. But it seems to me that the worship of a "man" (used in the all inclusive sense not the sexual sense) seems to lead to all sorts of fanatical actions. The fundies are lead by people who'd primary function is raising money. Cut or threaten this and you will end up with massive support for all sorts of radical projects no matter how much they conflict with truth and for those who understand, that which is beyond human.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Sancho]

It's not showing a credit card that's the issue... it's simply having one.

Many prospective employers include a credit check as part of the hiring process. The idea is that a stable credit history implies that its owner will be a stable person, more responsible, and less likely to rob the company due to a high financial burden.

It's very difficult to build up credit without a credit card. As such, while most companies don't require a credit card per se, some of them effectively require it by mandating good credit to work for them.

Then there are also companies that require that you pay for your own travel, etc. even when it's on company time. These usually require a credit card with at least an X limit, even if they will later reimburse you.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Marillion]

That's brilliant.

The big thing that scares me about any kind of implant is that it requires non-physical contact to activate. Calling it an implant doesn't change that it's RFID all dressed up. It's pretty obvious has to have some means of being triggered and read from a distance. Even if it's only two feet, that's close enough for some one to detect it in a crowded area.

Assume for a moment that something like this is inevitable - which currently isn't too hard, I'd want something that is completely dormant until I chose who gets to read it.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[myke113]

> Of course, VeriChips are for medical use only.

That's funny.. so is my Cannabis.. =)

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Hosiah]

I walked out realizing liberty and freedom are in fact at risk from with-in.

Well, allow me to congratulate you on your new-found wisdom. Though you are a step behind some very few others, you have still improved your lot immensely over those who do not see it at all!

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Anonymous Coward]

I see don't any of this as an issue of rights, religous prophecy, or freedom. It is simply an issue of use your brain (or in some cases whats left of it.) This is being introduced by a former government hack, who is now part of a company who is going to profit greatly from the technology. What better way than to show the benefits of it's many uses such as being able to rid one's self of all ID and other assocciated plastic. Well before one considers the implied benefits ALWAYS take into account all of the possibilities for misuse or criminal acts. If we think Identity Fraud and theft are a problem now imagine what a nightmare it could become under this senario. Of course it also require the necessity of a DNA database to back it up , etc. and who would be responsible for overseeing all of this ? Well only the government could manage such an endevor. The same people who are winning the wars on poverty, iliteracy, teen pregnancy, drugs, terror, illegal immigration, and on and on and on............

I feel I have made my point. But then it would only be used for a single purpose wouldn't it, just like your National and corporate identification number, Opps! I meant your Social Security Insurance number.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[JimBobJoe]

Of course, VeriChips are for medical use only.

And if that's what Tommy Thompson is going to sell it as, then here's my proposal to him.

Any VeriChip enabling legislation has to come with an amendment to the US Constitution saying...

a.) No person shall be required to have a VeriChip if they don't want one

b.) Verichips may contain useful health background data, but they may not carry personally identifiable information. (Such as name, bday, SSN, et cetera.)

If that occurs, and passes, you may possibly have my support.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[pthisis]

Yes. You can walk into the airport the day of the flight and buy a one-way ticket in cash if you want.

You'll probably be flagged for extra security screening if you do this.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[fbjon]

In Finland, just about everything can be bought with cash. I don't have a credit card, and if I get one, it will only be for internet shopping purposes. With American companies. Bastards.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[takeya]

DosBubba, as much as people may mock christians who say that this is the mark of the beast, you make a very good point (even if you didnt imply that it is the MOB)

Point being, these won't become mandatory. The book of revelations forecasts people rejecting these, implying that they were not forced at gunpoint not to have them (even though the lack of them led to several deaths).

These have potential to become so mandatory that those who reject them are considered extremists, prevented from living freely, from travelling, etc. How many people do you know who refuse to carry a cell phone, refuse to have a credit card, and don't carry a drivers license (and may or may not drive anyway), and cite religion as their reason for doing all this?

Probably not many, and if you did, you might think they were a lunatic. So you see how quickly not accepting this tech could lead to someone's persecution.

Social ostracism is a powerful tool, whose utilty is often underestimated.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[fbjon]

As I said in a previous post, I can buy most things with cash in Finland. Last week, I was at the flight carriers ticket seller at the airport with my frined, who needed money for a 200 euro ticket. They wouldn't take my Visa Electron card though (not a credit card, note), so I went to the ATM a few steps away, withdrew the money and paid.

A few years ago, I was at a shopping mall buying tickets for a different route, for both me and one of my other friends, total of about 1150 EUR (that's 1723CAD, 797GBP, 1417USD). I had my daily spending limit set too low at that time, so I had to go down one floor to a bank office, personally withdraw 1200EUR, and go back up and slap the money on the counter. No problem.

So there: Hotels are peanuts. ATM's are everywhere. Credit cards are not necessary. If I would need any small loan, I'll go and take a small loan.

Any questions? :)

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[thewiz]

Lets realize the fact that 95% of the terrorists of 9/11 and more recent bombings in London had valid papers. They could also have had valid implants too. It is a myth these new technologies of tracking people are any more effective than a tried and relatively cheap passport. Techo hype companies don't like this fact and the population is getting marketing, and not reality message. Good security is about people keeping their eyes open.

You are absolutely right; good security IS about people keeping their eyes open and noticing when things don't seem quite right. Having work in secure environments for several years, it has always been people who have noticed something amiss that stopped a problem before it happened, not gadgets that were installed to "secure" a building.

Technology and gadgets can only let you know about something bad happening AFTER the the intrusion has started. Human beings have the ability to sense when something is out of place, suspicious, or not quite right before something bad happens. Remember, an FBI agent tried to raise an alarm as to the number of people from the Middle East attending piloting school. Unfortunately, no one in the administration paid attention to it.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[KtHM]

You know, SS is *supposed* to be optional...

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[aywwts4]

Okay, Maybe I should have specified, Hotels in America, You need a credit card on file so they can charge for damages if you break anything. I ran into this problem on a road trip a year ago, I had cash, But I had to sleep in my car. Tried a ton of hotels too.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[pthisis]

Not under current federal law it isn't. Well, not in any meaningful way.

Despite the protestations of tax evaders to the contrary, federal law requires a SSN (or another form of TIN for resident aliens, etc) for everyone who makes any income. Refusal to disclose it to employers will incur fines (and potentially jail time.)--and they are legally required to ask you for it and report refusals to disclose. Even the self employed are required to include it on all tax returns.

This has been the case at least since 1996.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[fbjon]

Aha, but they won't even take a deposit? Sounds like bad business..

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you say "Discrimination"?

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[takeya]

yes, but how is that discrimination.

nobody has successfully claimed that the government was discriminatory by requiring that all citizens carry licenses to drive, or that many businesses only accepted credit cards, or that a workplace could discriminate based on whether you had an SSN (which you dont need to work, by the way)

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Clockwork Apple]

"It's hard to believe that the preposition 'on' instead of 'of' would make that much difference."

If a man was "on" your wife (a lover/rapist/dead skydiver) you might be a bit more upset than if the man was "of" your wife (a son).

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[TheoMurpse]

You don't think the "religious fundis" are really trying to uphold their faith, do you? No. It's all about power, and as soon as their faith won't help them gain more control over the citizens, they'll dump God in favor of the technology that will benefit them.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[ultranova]

According to Procter, the chips can also be used for financial transactions.

Cue heated debate about the Mark of the Beast.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Reteo Varala]

Wow... the advantage of the current administration's religious leanings!

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[hackwrench]

Completely different situation that doesn't even work as an analogy.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[technos]

I've never had that problem with any hotel in the US. When they ask, I say one of a couple things..

This works nearly every time, especially when I'm nicely dressed and it's a nicer hotel.

"I lost my wallet in [place] two nights ago. Thank god I had my license in my money-clip with my cash, or I'd be totally screwed."

Used this a couple times at your standard flea motels.

"Bud, I drive a [antique piece of shit]. Do you really think if I even had a credit card, it wouldn't be maxed out?"

When I was younger, I used to use

"Ma'am, I'm [twenty something] and in college. I don't really want the temptation of the damn things till I get out in the real world and can actually, y'know, pay them off. Now I'm really tired, I've been driving since this morning. Can I just get a room already, so I can sleep?"

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[malex23]

In all seriousness, I sometimes wonder if the Fundimetalist "Left Behind" fans would be happy to accept a identification mark on, say, the _left_ hand...

I mean, if they're being Literalists, then it only makes sense that they'd be Literalist all the way.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Clockwork Apple]

I was trying to point out that the words have a very different meaning and usage...for a reason.

Using them interchangablly makes the whole christian bible seem even less valid. Are you trying to make it (the faith) seem revisionist? Or is this just how you think christians read and study the bible? Or are you identifying yourself as a christian who thinks this way?

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because Revelations is a political commentary on ancient Rome, not necessarily religious. It has been misinterpreted many times over by the fundie crowd, but Revelations is actually telling the story of a corrupt, tyrannical government, and the consequences of it getting out of control.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[hackwrench]

I believe that Jesus died on account of the sin of everyone, and that it was part of the process to awaken us from our sin. I also believe the Bible has been poorly translated. I also believe that the purpose for the marks is more important than the conditions for the marks. I also recognize that they didn't have the technology back then for I.D. cards. I also believe that most christians ignore huge chunks of the Bible, and that they read in punishment where none occurs. For example, the Tower of Babel, it doesn't say that God is punishing them by confounding their languages, but it is usually interpreted as such. Diversification is actually an asset. http://www.cresourcei.org/thirdheaven.html incredibly twists the meaning of 2 Corithians 12, and most people do not study it.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Anonymous Coward]

Guess why they put combination locks on safes. No, really, take a wild guess. Last time I checked they did not stack bank notes behind people. Figured it out yet? GUESS!

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Anonymous Coward]

Um. This is being proposed by the administration. Or at least a former member of it.

And it wouldn't be the first time a Bush administration official said they wanted every citizen to have an RFID tag. IIRC Tom Ridge said it too. He's no longer a part of the administration, but it's an indicator as to what they are thinking.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Scarletdown]

Would it help to point out to those bastards that refusing cash is illegal? You can do that by pointing out that little statement on all U.S. bills: This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[rblum]

You are aware that religious fundamentals *want* the second coming, right?

The apocalypse is the precursor to judgment day, when the righteous will enter paradise, while the rest go to hell. If you consider yourself righteous, what's not to like?

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[/dev/trash]

Until you reach a point where you need to eat.

+++
I once was a great hacker.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[chicago_bulls]

i agree. does anybody out there think that the hijackers who attaked the world trade center would have let something like a little microchip stop them?

i mean they think it will help with security?!? just look at iraq...130,000 u.s. troops for security and people STILL find ways to blow themselves up.

personally, i will not get ANYTHING like that. i won't get a national id card if they have one. i won't get some microchip. i won't put a microchip in my dog.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[/dev/trash]

Wait, that was when Clinton was President. How did THAT happen????
+++
  My new Home

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Anonymous Coward]

ID CAN track them.
Britain may choose to be free of Muslims one day...

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Scarletdown]

Hell, the "True Believers", aka fundies, would probably support this in hopes of helping to bring on the Apocolypse and the so-called Second Coming.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Oculus Habent]

I'd want something that is completely dormant until I chose who gets to read it.

And when you come in on the stretcher, unconscious, the technology does no good. That's the argument. I am, however, all for a shorter-range read (maybe 2-4"?).

The thing about being able to detach the id from you is that it becomes essentially useless for anything you don't choose to use it for. If everyone can get the tag (and, indeed, is issued two, free of charge (a bracelet or other tag as a child, and a card as a teenager/adult) it would be possible to assign the code to other uses (can you say Social Security Number?) However, this system would (hopefully) allow for the replacement of a stolen number... all it has to do is be a unique ID for a medical record.

If we allow the tags to be external to the body - though people could get implants - it makes it easier to change them, and to prevent tracking. Ultimately the tag doesn't contain the data, just the key. If we can prevent it from being used in other ways (like SSNs) it wouldn't really matter much as far as theft... all an individual could do was get a doctor/hospital to pull up your records. The government, however, could still track the hell out of you if they were sufficiently easy to read.

The benefits of the system are clear - direct, assured access to your medical records whenever it becomes important to have it. The potential abuses of the system should scare the hell out of anyone.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[ayumi-chan]

They've been talking about putting these chips into soldiers' hands for years... In some cases I see this as a big help, because we have a big problem where I'm stationed: people getting wallets pick-pocketed simply for those oh-so-spiffy white military ID cards, not the credit cards or the cash. Its happened to me 4 times this year. Also, they lay the hammer down on us when we have to report it missing... Hey, we've already lost most of our rights as citizens when we joined the military, what's losing the right to privacy matter when we no longer have it anyways. However I do see how this can be a problem if we were captured and happened to be a high ranking officer, but that could be alleviated by high encryption or simply leaving the rank out of the infomation in the first place.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[notyourmom]

666 - Mark of the Beast, anyone?

im not a conspiracy theorist, but this does sound a lot like the 666 bit. Lemme see here, this chip will go into the back of the right hand or the forehead, according to Revelations... Does that sound about right??

Even if this isnt the apocolypse, Im sure any of the Roswell nuts will be marching on DC and the White House any day now.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[smchris]

I see no reason that a chip like this couldn't be carried.

Fewer people will cut out their implants than leave their records in a drawer.

When I first saw a JumpDrive, I thought, "Wow. There's a business. Medical/legal documents you can carry with you around the world." First person I mentioned it to said, "I'm not carrying my medical records around."

Once HMOs require this, I wonder how likely it is they'd let me keep the data on a JumpDrive instead?

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[pthisis]

I have no idea when it was passed, I just know that that part of the tax code was last revised in 1996. That's why I said it goes back to at least 1996; it could predate that by decades, but I didn't feel like trying to find old versions of the US Code to compare.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[pthisis]

Untrue.

If they let you stay there and then you go to pay with cash, they can't refuse it for payment of your bill.

But as a private company, they have every right to refuse to do business with you for practically any reason (race and gender discrimination excepted). And they can certainly require a credit card beforehand.

IOW, if you actually have a debt with them, you can use legal tender to pay it. But they have no obligation to let you run up a debt in the first place.

See:
http://www.treas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal- tender.shtml

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Kadin2048]

And as a private enterprise, they don't have to rent you a room. So go ahead and point that out to them, as well.

Of course they can't discriminate against you based on race, age, sex, religion, etc. ... so maybe you could tell them that credit cards are against your religion?

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Kadin2048]

Why don't you give us an update on how you feel, when you move out of your parents' basement?

Seriously, with the exception of some agricultural jobs (the ones where they typically hire illegals anyway) and are willing to pay you in cash, it's nearly impossible to make a living without disclosing your SSN. I've tried, because I hate giving the damn thing out, but in order to get a job or a bank account or line of credit, you need to give it up. I understand how you could live without the last two items, but being permanently unemployed doesn't appeal to me too much.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Kadin2048]

Actually at least in my state, you don't need to carry your driver's license in order to drive. You just need to have one.

Of course, if you get pulled over and can't produce it immediately, then you have to actually show up in person at the courthouse within some set time limit (I think 24 or 48 hours) to prove that you have one. So it's really an issue of "you don't have to carry it, but we'll make it easier on you if you do."

The chip thing is somewhat disturbing to me, and frankly I can't see the benefit of it. If you're allergic to aspirin/peanuts/penicillin, get yourself a medical bracelet that says so. It's even indirectly readable: all you have to do is bounce some light waves off the reflective surface and into these funny receptor cells conveniently installed in our heads, and you can tell what they say!

If I had some complicated medical condition which made it likely that I'd be rendered unconscious, and where a common hospital treatment could kill me, I'd be thinking of getting a tattoo long before some sort of implanted chip. At least with the tattoo, you don't need a specialized piece of equipment to read it back, so EMTs as well as ED personnel can benefit by it. And it's a whole lot less creepy (Holocaust references aside).

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Marillion]

Actually, we're not that far apart. I intended to say the same thing. A bar code would be an excellent example of a "dormant" technology. If I'm hauled into a hospital, a bar code is still useful.

One of my big concerns is foreign travel. I've had the good fortune to travel to ten countries and Americans stick out enough as it is. Given the recent, abrasive US policies, I fear that there are those with increased motivation to find and harm US citizens.

Something like RFID doesn't have an "off switch." Whether implanted, in my passport, or anywhere the problem is you can't prevent someone from strolling along Le Champs-Ellesse waiting for his "American Detector" to go off.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Sparr0]

Since when is a credit card necessary to travel? I have paid by cash or check every time I have booked a flight other than online, as recently as this year. I of course take your statements to mean you make the stupid travel==flight connection. Busses and trains still exist, afaik.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[takeya]

Just out of curiosity, which state is that?

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Tesla Tank]

Unless you monitor their thoughts...

Oh shit, I didn't mean to give them any ideas.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Feztaa]

I see no reason that a chip like this couldn't be carried. Embed the chip into a card or an ID bracelet.

Better yet, since the chip is just an ID number and doesn't carry any actual data, you could just get a bracelet with a barcode and written numbers on it. This would be cheaper to implement since you wouldn't need special equipment just to read the number (anybody with eyes could read the number, and also a barcode scanner would make it easier to read but wouldn't be necessary for reading).

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Xyrus]

And that's what I love about the hypocrisy of the fundi's.

Anyone who truly understands the bible realizes that no one on Earth has the ability to judge righteousness save for God.

If anything, they're following the "beast" already (if you believe in their religion that is).

Ah well. I don't follow religions that say you should feel guilty for living. Live life, do unto others and all that jazz, and enjoy it while your here.

~X~

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[notsoanonymouscoward]

If that is the case, then I guess all us lefties out there are the meek who shall inherit the earth when all you righties get sent to hell?

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Anonymous Coward]

Since when is a credit card necessary to travel?

Try renting a car without one? What do you do at hotels that will not reserve a room without one?

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[tabrnaker]

Nice to see people helping out other people to lie and decieve.

Must give you that warm fuzzy feeling inside eh?

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[juan2074]

What? Tommy Thompson is the Beast?

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Anonymous Coward]

looks like you haven't either

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Some_Llama]

"... and your I.D. and signature are generated by direct interaction with your body and thus are marks of the beast.

Actually in Revelations, the beast is analogous to a sculpture or icon, and is given power and "life" by Satan (so those who say 666 is the number of the devil obviously don;t know what they are talking about).

Something about it amazed people because it came to life, and was mortaly wounded but survived.

So the mark must represent this "Beast" and couldn't represent the actions of people as you describe...

A lot of interesting stuff in revelations... like it says that the beast will rise from the ocean, so could that mean an island or coastal state (like japan or california?) and ten kings with ten crowns will worship the beast (something akin to the euro? i dunno), it will be come mortaly wounded but still survive...

SO men won't be forced to worship the Devil, but this "Beast" which is given it's power by the Devil.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Anonymous Coward]

Because you're a jerk?

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[Anonymous Coward]

Quote: "Furthermore 'a book written 1990 years ago' is NOT capable of predicting what is about to happen, and it HAS not predicted it."

HA ha ha!

Thanks, guy. That's the best grin I've had in days. :)

Seriously: You're one of those I-hate-Christians-and-their-Bibles-having-never-re ad-it types, aren't you? It's a lot easier to deny/decry the truth if you avoid laying eyes on it.

It's not like the Bible predicted numerous ancient events that can historically verified (via secular sources) that later came to pass, is it?

Oops. Actually, it is.

Well, the Bible certainly didn't predict that the Nation of Israel would be restored, just as she was in the 20th century... Uh oh. God got that one right, too.

Few Christians see the Verichip as the mark of the beast, but clearly, the world has reached a historic point: The Verichip's existence hallmarks the physically possibility for what has puzzled many for centuries. Until Applied Digital (and their sponsors/predecessors) came along, a lot of post modern Christians tended to view the mark as metaphorical. Now, thanks to credit cards, the Lucifer cypher, the Verichip, and other factors, it's increasingly concievable to many that the day has dawned when a global government (think world criminal court, world bank, et cetera -- the framework's in place, ready to be brought online) can dictate that no one will be able to buy, sell, or trade (even medicenes for survival) without taking something into their hand or forehead that retains their banking information, credit history, and so on.

If you can't handle the spiritual truth, the worldlier side of it all (including the war on personal privacy and freed-... er, I mean the war on "terror") is that the closer we get to imprisoning ourselves under a police/surveilance state, the more Orwell (author of 1984, a must-read for these times in which "terrorism" is used as an excuse to establish a totalitarian state, slowly but steadily) is proven to have been almost prophetic: We're a national disaster/emergency away from the declaration of martial law now and (I'm neither a Leftie nor a pacifist but) "peace through war" is, essentially, our national motto. Don't hold your breath for that to be relinquished, no matter how sweet the promises, once our streets are garrisoned (by our troops, UN/NATO "peacekeepers", Chinese ground forces... it won't matter a ton whom).

If you really want to know all that you may, however, the Bible's a play book that factually, verifiably predicts the mark, globalism, the return to Europe in the top seat of world power (it's coming, believe it or not), rising costs for human survival (a day's wage will be the cost of a jar of wheat, in time), the attack on Israel (coming to a Middle East near you, thanks to land-for-peace appeasement foolishness combined with aid from Russia and China) -- and even the fact that Israel is now walling herself up (just as the prophet Daniel predicted). At some point, possible before long, someone will come forward, seemingly from out of nowhere, with a peace plan that seems agreeable for Israelis and Arabs. Watch like never before then: He'll only honor that pact with Israel for seven years, after which he'll betray them and reveal his true colors.

The plain truth is that there are hundreds of prophecies that God gave in the Bible and which came to pass. The harder aspect of it, especially for those who'd rather avoid the whole picture of reality in favor of their own childishness, is that the remaining prophecies get pretty ugly. Only those who are reconciled to God through Jesus Christ (not Allah, not Budda, not "The Force", not Lucifer, not Oprah, not karma, not Gaia, not yourself, not "Reverend" Moon, et cetera; those surrendered to Jesus alone) have anything positive to look forward to beyond the Last Days.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[mink]

Sounds like the "colition of the willing" and the "war on terror" to me.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[mink]

Don't forget that most rental car companies wont do business in cash as you could be a terrorist.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[mink]

It would appear, now that the terrorists won, good security is about finding someone who is non white and gunning him down in cold blood. Then lie through your teath about the facts in the hopes no on investigates.

Re:Medical Purposes Only

[mink]

Even better.

IF you want to not get raped by the state board of workmans compensation (from the standpoint of running a business), you have to submit to state anti-drug policy (45 % reduction in rates if you do mandatory random testing and a whole bunch of other crap).

No matter what kind go work you do, you have to follow federal guidelines for levels of drugs and alcohol. These levels are set to regulate interstate truck driving.

So an IT worker I have to never go above a .04 BAC as thats the limit for truckers. Even off the job if I go above that and for some reason a mandatory test (random or due to an accident) happens before my BAC can go down far enough. The federal .04 level must be followed even if I am living or drinking in a municipality that has a higher BAC as the limit for safety.

Newsflash

[daveschroeder]

Newsflash 1: Director[1] of company that makes RFID chips extols virtues of RFID chips!

Newsflash 2: There is a revolving door between executive-level government and industry!

Newsflash 3: A former government official might use his contacts to lobby for his benefit!

Newsflash 4: Company in question presents its product in a positive light!

Newsflash 5: Melodramaic slashdot sumbission contains no actual news at all.

Frankly, there could be benefits from and novel uses for a universally globally unique identifier that is always with you and can't be lost. But the potential for abuse, obviously, outweighs those benefits. (In fact, if it could only be activated and/or read when you explicitly wished, it might be a good, albeit voluntary, idea. But that's not how this system is applied.)

And further, it's probably not a bad idea for health applications. However, like the Social Security number, it's bound to get misappropriated and misapplied for all manner of other uses. Some of which we

So far, where has it been used? Bars and clubs as gimmicks.

So what does this all mean?

We have a former government official with no official standing or position in government whatever promoting a product of a company of which he's a member of the board.

Stunning.

Bottom line: Sure, absolutely: be vigilant. But there will never be compulsory "implants" that will be required for all. Does that mean a company that would benefit massively from such an idea wouldn't try to promote it? In fact, I'd be worried if a for-profit company operating in a quasi-capitalist society didn't attempt to promote its products. (And no, having national standards for state driver licenses and identification cards was/is not a bad idea.)

[1] Tommy Thompson, while he incidentally may have been the former HHS secretary, is a director of the company that makes the RFID chips.

Re:Newsflash

[Anonymous Coward]

So, how many shares of VeriChip do you own?

Re:Newsflash

[daveschroeder]

None, dumbass.

I'm pointing out that it's no surprise a company is promoting its own products.

Of course, naturally, I'd expect everyone here to miss that point.

Re:Newsflash

[Anonymous Coward]

Tommy Thompson is also a Republican, conservative pissant apologist daveschroeder.

Re:Newsflash

[daveschroeder]

And how does that change anything I said?

What's that?

It doesn't?

Ok, thanks!

Re:Newsflash

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pointing out that it's no surprise a company is promoting its own products.

I thought the surprising part was the obvious lack of good taste. Are we to be cattle so that some agency can "brand" us with these things? Is it right for a former Health secretary to be peddling what appears to be all manner of anti-freedom chip implants?

Is it sane to want to stay away from technology like this? Will it be sane in 10-20 years when this stuff is manditory?

But you know, whatever. Lets just pass it off as what you say it is, and what is appears to be. Just schmucks selling some info tracking stuff. Good for us, right. No downsides whatsoever..

God, I hate people.

Re:Newsflash

[slavemowgli]

But there will never be compulsory "implants" that will be required for all.

While I agree with most of your post, I'd be careful with statements like that. Never say never - there's already lots of stuff going on today that people probably wouldn't have believed would ever happen some 230 years ago.

Re:Newsflash

[Anonymous Coward]

Bottom line: Sure, absolutely: be vigilant. But there will never be compulsory "implants" that will be required for all.

Oh really. What about required for some??

We have a former government official with no official standing or position in government whatever promoting a product of a company of which he's a member of the board.

No official standing huh?? Well he must be clean then with all those close ties removed and all.

So far, where has it been used? Bars and clubs as gimmicks.

Say no more.

Re:Newsflash

[Anonymous Coward]

What you neglect to say is as important as what you say.

Re:Newsflash

[nkh]

Frankly, there could be benefits from and novel uses for a universally globally unique identifier

Being treated like cattle is not a benefit. This is a step backward. What happens when everyone has an implant and I refuse to have one?

Re:Newsflash

[flamingnight]

be vigilant. But there will never be compulsory "implants" that will be required for all

Just as there will never be internments for all Japanese- or German-Americans in certain states, or random searches on the NYC subways.....

Re:Newsflash

[sgt_doom]

Ya know, I'm all for every member, past and present, of the Bush Administration have one of those chips shoved up their a$$.

Re:Newsflash

[Taladar]

...or prison camps beginning to resemble Nazi concentration camps built and used by the USA...

Re:Newsflash

[Atzanteol]

It's not so much being treated like cattle... For some time we've had the need to prove our identity to people we don't know and don't meet in person. How would you privacy nuts solve this problem? We don't live in a society where eveybody meets people they do business with anymore.

Thus some form of identification card (A really good, difficult to forge one using PKI or some such) would be much more of a benefit than a hindrance. We already have crappy ID's (CC numbers, Soc Sec., etc) and they're not effective.

How *do* I prove to the mortgage company on the phone that I am who I say I am? And why would it be bad to be able to do so?

Re:Newsflash

[robertgeller]

Again, like some others have said, it's not the ostensible *idea* that's bad -- in fact, the idea itself is superficially good -- but the inevitable abuse that will occur with the issuing of such implanted chips.

At least to me, it seems glaringly obvious that these cards will be pushed for sex offenders, "so they can be tracked at all times;" for small children, "so their parents know where they are at all times;" for mentally and physically handicapped persons, "for their well-being and safety;" for air travellers, "for our safety and security;" for convicted felons, "for our safety and security;" and the list just goes on, as more politicians can think of more ways to institute the chip.

On the other hand, like you said, there are some good things to be said for such a chip, like unified credit cards, drivers licenses, personal information to verify identity, credit reports, etc. etc. etc. But what happens when hackers get into people's chips? Your entire life can be ruined. What happens when there are new, initially "optional" programs that allow government agencies to track you "for your safety?" I'd bet you that half the country would be willing to sign up for that, right off the bat. They've already demonstrated that will with the PATRIOT Act.

Re:Newsflash

[IdleTime]

Gitmo is a concentration camp. Check the definition of a concentration camp in any dictionary.

It's not called a concentration camp because it's by USA and the name sounds nazi, yet Gitmo IS a concentration camp per definition.

Re:Newsflash

[Anonymous Coward]

Are we to be cattle so that some agency can "brand" us with these things?

If you ever walked to Chicago Union Station at rush hour you would have no doubt that we are cattle. Now moo for me!

Re:Newsflash

[Seumas]

Frankly, there could be benefits from and novel uses for a universally globally unique identifier that is always with you and can't be lost.

Such as what? I can't think of any possible uses that would be of interest to the average person. So they can identify my body quicker in the event that I'm burned to a crisp in a terrorist attack. Big fucking deal. Or the hospital will be able to gather my medical records a few minutes quicker and I'll have one less form to complete at the hospital. So what?

The only way they're going to get these into people is by implanting them in CHILDREN before they are old enough to complain or refuse. They'll convince parents that their children will some how magically not be raped or abducted or run away or get lost if only you implant a magical chip in them. And if they do, at least you'll find the body quicker. What with that drastic rate in which 90% of children are either raped or kidnapped during their childhood, of course.

It'll be like those idiotic parents who go to the police sponsored "protect your kid" things at the mall where they gather all of your baby's vital statistics and then get finger prints of the child to put on record as if having fingerprints in a file somewhere is a magic shield against abduction.

There is absolutely nothing to be gained by use of an implanted chip that you can't gain through less intrusive methods, such as an RFID national ID card or a wristband or lapel pin with the same technology in it. Not that I'd wear or carry any of those things either, of course.

Then again, this sort of thing would help the police avoid that whole fourth amendment thing. You'll never have to worry about being stopped and asked by the gestapo to present your documents (which you must carry on you at all times, citizen!). Nope. They'll just scan you from a distance and find out what they wish without your knowledge or consent.

Re:Newsflash

[darkonc]

Does anybody have his chip ID? It'd be lots of fun to set up a bunch of alarms to go off whenever he walks by certain spots.

Actually, it just hit me. This could be NASTY. If these things become law, then the best way to impersonate someone would be to take the ID chip -- almost literally -- out of their cold, dead hands.

Re:Newsflash

[MrShaggy]

Hm The downfall with the whole thing is that can someone honestly tell me that with all the recent privacy foul-ups (missing credit cards), identity theft(coolweb), and Im sure that the list goes on and on. How can you tell me that a company isn't going to sell their servers,and forget to wipe the data? Or someone break in?

why would something like this be linked at all ? If I am allergic to pennicillan, Id be happy to have alocalised chip to say that. Why would it need to go beyond that ? Mediic-Alert Braclets are the same idea.

Re:Newsflash

[Zak3056]

...or prison camps beginning to resemble Nazi concentration camps built and used by the USA...

Let me know when the chimneys are being raised and the forced labor begins.

I'm not happy iwht the things my government is doing right now, but it's a far cry between the current policies of the US government and that of the Nazis of the 1930s and 40s.

Re:Newsflash

[Floody]

I think the core problem is this: Everyone likes identification. Identification is useful. What people tend not to like is being unable to control who has identification/information on them and to what ends its being used. Perfectly understandable given humanity's "unsavoury" past.

What ever happened to the branch of comp sci directly involved w/ personal identification crypto, e.g. The now-aged pgp "web of trust" concepts? It seems like nothing new has happened in that arena in quite some time.

Imagine some sort of security "vetting service" tied in with something along the lines of kerberos. I'd be willing to give out identification/limited personal information to others as long as I:

1. Knew who was asking and was able to authorize only proxies I trusted to reveal this information.
2. Was able to get reciprocal data on the requestor.

If such a "vetting" organization made transactional information publically (electronically) available, with nothing but pure transaction #s (i.e. no actual personal information revealed publically), this could be privately and publically spot checked against the systems actually handing out the real data; perhaps even automatically, by concerned individuals and watchdog groups. I grab the portion of the logs/transactions that pertain to me and match them up against what was privately handed out and they damn well better match. How does this help? Well, for one, I would be hesitent to get on a flight with a person who wasn't willing to "swap" id data with me.

Yeah, ok, it's not a completely thought out idea and probably has numerous flaws, but the point should be clear. ;)

Just like "many eyes make shallow bugs", so do "many eyes promote honesty." (or at least tend to catch offenders rapidly)

As it stands, it seems the trend is currently to deploy technology against the people, rather than for them.

Re:Newsflash

[cryptochrome]

Frankly, there could be benefits from and novel uses for a universally globally unique identifier that is always with you and can't be lost. But the potential for abuse, obviously, outweighs those benefits.

You just described all biometrics in a nutshell (Appearance, fingerprint, retina scan, dna, etc.) And even without a National ID companies are still tracking and analyzing you.

My point being - these applications are coming whether you like it or not. Personally, I have nothing against a single National ID/Cash/Credit/Key card. If done right it would make identity protection and verification much easier - two matters that are definitely becoming serious issues. How's that mantra go? Something you have, something you know, something you are.

Government involvement is not necessarily a bad thing either. As a matter of legislation citizens would have clear legal rights and channels to influence and clarify appropriate use of the card and associated data, unlike now when you are largely subject to the motivations of the various corporations involved.

As a bonus, it would also eliminate the need for wallets. An implanted RFID chip could serve the same purpose but of course it has its own benefits and limitations in convenience, and of course even such a mild surgical procedure should not be mandatory. Futhermore, with any RFID technology, you should always have the option of shielding to prevent scanning, which is impractical with an implant but rather simple with a card. An independent chip - in a necklace, bracelet, or earring - would be a simple compromise.

Re:Newsflash

[Anonymous Coward]

"Frankly, there could be benefits from and novel uses for a universally globally unique identifier that is always with you and can't be lost."

And the spoofing thereof! Who else wants to be William F. Gates?

This technology is useful only on sheep. Wolves will eat it, rather than participate in it.

Therefore, it is entirely useless.

Re:Newsflash

[ChrisMaple]

And further, it's probably not a bad idea for health applications.

Wanna bet? What percentage of these won't be sterile when implanted? What percentage will cause an allergic reaction? What percentage will cause poisoning to someone hypersensitive to the trace elements in the chip (such as arsenic)? How many people, furious at the invasion required by implanting the chip but afraid to resist the implantation, cause their own deaths digging it out afterwards?

How many people have to die because of this piece of tyrannical idiocy?

Re:Newsflash

[Anonymous Coward]

But it's not too far off from the Nazis of the 1920s...

Re:Newsflash

[Anonymous Coward]

First, there is no use in this id (whether it includes PKI or not) to be embedded in our bodies. Unless we really do want to be treated like cattle and stand in lines at the organization requesting ID. This stuff has to work over the phone. And it cannot, because the only scheme that is feasable would be a reader in your home, that transmitted the encryption verification info over the phone line. And then hackers will just hack the reader units and you're in the same mess as having a CC #. It's the same probelm that will face the upcoming Trusted Computing Platform that will lock down future computers using PKI. But since it uses public key encryption, this means every private key stored in the TC chip must be the same. So how long do you think that key will remain secret? The only solution would be to use a national public/private key registry for everyone in the US. Do you really trust that to be updated and secured properly? (Do we require turists to be added? think of all the updating and how many operators do you have to trust...lots of $$$ in swapping peoples keys. or do they just get away saying they are a turist?) Not to mention the overhead. There has to be some way to pair private keys with identities and trust that pairing.

Re:Newsflash

[Anonymous Coward]

> there's already lots of stuff going on today that people probably wouldn't have believed would ever happen some 230 years ago.

230?

30 years ago, I wouldn't have believed that the US would become Soviet America, with travel papers required for citizens to move between the SSRs -- er, I mean states -- and with international notoriety as a country of torture.

Re:Newsflash

[Shadowlore]

In fact, I'd be worried if a for-profit company operating in a quasi-capitalist society didn't attempt to promote its products.


Agreed. However, when they want the government to start down the path of establishing mandatory markets or getting the government to pay for their R&D and/or marketing, there is a problem.


(And no, having national standards for state driver licenses and identification cards was/is not a bad idea.


Yes, actually, it is. It is a bad idea because nowhere in the constitution is this a valid and authorized power fo the fedgov. To do it anyway is a further offense to the constitution and violation of the very foundation of the government. Continuing to undermine the constitution in this way only leads to further undermining of it.

Further, the establishment of federally determined minimums produces what is called an "unfunded mandate" to the state governments. It forces States to do additional tasks while the money to do it still gets bled of the fedgov.

Not too dissimilar from the state requiring you to have insurance on your car. Now imagine them adding more such mandates. Meanwhile they continue to take the fruit of YOUR labor. They effectively tax you w/o it being obvious. That is what so-called "national standards" do.

Bottom line: Sure, absolutely: be vigilant. But there will never be compulsory "implants" that will be required for all.

And years ago it was said the same regarding other things required today. Such as the SSN, various insurances, and so on.

See, technically, you are not legally required to have a SSN to work in this country. Yet it has become "required".

It is not illegal to have a child w/o a SSN. But if you go that route be prepared for it to cost you a lot more money. For example, w/o a SSN you are not allowed to claim your child as an exemption and/or credit on your income tax return.

See how it works? They take stuff away from you (that they have no consitutional, moral, or legal right to), then tell you that if you want it back you have to submit to things they know they can't require you to do otherwise.

And then they call it "voluntary".

Poor? Need food stamps or other welfare benefits? How long till you are required to have one of these (under various guises/justifications as cost savings, fraud prevention, etc.)?

How about to travel on airlines and/or trains?

How about from international travel such as passports currently do? They'll claim it is better because it is implanted, etc. and that it'll "save us" so much money and lives ("...if it saves one life...").

How about the disarm-you nuts? How long before it starts making it's way into gun control laws? Especially when they start mandating guns be tied to the owner's RFID signature. That way they can "prevent" accidental shootings.

How long before it is used on people who the public doesn't care about, such as criminals?

Now we've got it "required" for "optional" activities such as travel, criminals, poor people, and people otherwise exercising their legal rights. Toss in mandating it for soldiers, who won't be given a choice and most non-soldiers won't care.

Now who is left? Police organizations as well as emergency rescue people. They can be mandated into it based on the alleged benefits it would provide. Especailly if they require it to qualify for their health benefits plans. Still "optional" in that "you don't have to" travel via plane, be a criminal, be a soldier, be an emergency worker, or apply for/accept government welfare.

Next up, all federal workers. Again, since it can be used for financial purposes, it will be used as a cost savings justification. Not to mention it would become required for "security scanner" use.

Following the successsful federal deployment ("hey, it's still not required since you don't HAVE to work for the fedgov you know), soon will come mandates to the states. Let us revisit your "national standards" comment.

Re:Newsflash

[i_am_not_a_bomba]

There a lot of stuff going on today that wouldn't have been believed even *10* years ago.

My own country (Australia) has just taken a turn for the worse with the government posing to give powers to security agencies that are simply authoritarian.

The power that they seek (and will get) is faaaaar beyond anything that the US or the UK currently have. I can only imagine that ten years ago if you had of said that in this country, in ten years, a secret police whose employees cannot be identified under penalty of prison can haul ANYONE they want off the street for up to three months without telling anyone and with out *any* civilian oversite. That person no longer with the to remain silent, faces up to five years in prison if they choose not to speak, cannot contact family or friends and can only contact a lawyer if they know the lawyers name, and even then the lawyer can be denied at the agents discretion, the lawyer is also not allowed to tell any one where they are. Anybody ten years ago would have laughed "not in this country" they would have said.

Of course, that's just one of the many frightening things happening in this country, the government is banging a drum now making noises that expats should be able to be deported if they criticise the government...

Of course it's all in the name of tough anti-terror laws, never mind that we have never been a target, that they already introduced a swath of crazy laws after september 11 (that have never been used, although how could we ever know?) and now they want more.

Then there's the national ID card, the secret searches, the fact that Australian security forces used more wire taps last year than the entire United States, this in a country of 20 million, i could go on and on.

The icing on the cake? The government now runs both houses of parliament, we are currently in a one party state and just one month after gaining total political power they are already seeking to expand their powers to frightening lengths, the media refuse to perform their duty, with the government dangling changes in media ownership laws to become like the US like a carrot, there is no questioning happening.

It all scares the absolute *hell* out of me, fortunately people are starting to ask questions, it was actually talked about at a family get together last week, my family is definatey not one to talk politics, they all seemed to see the laws for what they are and none were impressed, so maybe there is hope yet.

Anyway, ten years ago, you simply would have been called a kook if you stated that there would ever be a secret police force in this country, and well, here we are...

Re:Newsflash

[Anonymous Coward]

All remaining males in Fallujah after the US assault were to be made to participate in forced labour reconstruction schemes. Also look at the "citizen processing centers". Isn't "democracy" wonderful?

Re:Newsflash

[Atzanteol]

That is an interesting idea. But it involves a little too much effort on the part of your average human being.

I just don't think people care that much about their privacy. They *do*, however, care a *lot* about conveniance. :-\

Re:Newsflash

[Heian-794]

There is absolutely nothing to be gained by use of an implanted chip that you can't gain through less intrusive methods, such as an RFID national ID card or a wristband or lapel pin with the same technology in it. Not that I'd wear or carry any of those things either, of course.

And this is what the governments are banking on. Scare people with implants, and then nobody minds a few years down the road when it's "good thing they're only instituting mandatory RFID cards instead of those horrible chips!"

Threaten to someone with unjust execution and suddenly an equally unjust prison sentence is looking downright palatable.

Company spokesman endorses own product

[The Hobo]

In other news, umbrella manufacturer thinks everyone could benefit from an umbrella.

Film at eleven.

Re:Company spokesman endorses own product

[Senjutsu]

In other news, umbrella manufacturer thinks everyone could benefit from an umbrella.

If they're only thinking that, they're doing it wrong. They should be paying off some dumb-ass politician so that he can introduce legislation mandating that everyone has to buy an UmbrellaCo brand umbrella.

Re:Company spokesman endorses own product

[Anonymous Coward]

Ugh, better start stockpiling guns, ammo, and typewriter ink cartridges.

Re:Company spokesman endorses own product

[Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki]

"That's why i support this legislation, gentlemen. Not only would the toilets be cleaner if people where made to pee out the windows, we would be selling umbrellas by the MILLIONS"

Re:Company spokesman endorses own product

[Triple Click]

When they start embedding umbrellas in people's heads, then I will start to worry.

Right...

[Radish03]

"Nothing for you to see here. Please move along."

Only if it includes DRM

[liquid stereo]

I want my freedom restricted.

Re:Only if it includes DRM

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh great...Digitally Restricted Movement. Now I can only enter doors they want me to enter...

Re:Only if it includes DRM

[Anonymous Coward]

BINGO...that's the idea; all in the interest of Homeland Security.

They thought they were free, Mayer.

Re:Only if it includes DRM

[kihjin]

You mean Managed, right?

Re:Only if it includes DRM

[ChilyWily]

Yes, but only if you're in Region 1.

Oh God.

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder what the reaction will be to this from that part of the extremist christian set that honestly believes the events of Revelations will come true in our lifetime...

Re:Oh God.

[Anonymous Coward]

Many of them believe in doctrine of "immanentising the eschaton" i.e. it's their duty to make as much of the book of Revelations true as early as possible to bring on the Rapture when men shall ascend to heaven. From their perspective, this would just be getting the bad stuff in Revelations out of the way early.

Mainstream christians reject the doctrine of immanentisation of the eschaton as a grievous sin, as it would be man telling god what to do.

Re:Oh God.

[tyrus568]

I think it's called the Bible Belt.

Look at the popularity of that atrocious "Left Behind" series and tell me there would ever be compulsory chip implementation of any kind in the US.

Re:Oh God.

[sgt_doom]

I suspect they believe that when they are "raptured" back to wherever it is they are "raptured" to, the chip won't follow them - boy, are they ever going to be surpised to find themselves still 'chipped'....

Too easy

[AndroidCat]

I know where spokesperson John Procter can insert his chip!

Re:Too easy

[pyrrhonist]

I know where spokesperson John Procter can insert his chip!

The best part is that his last name is derived from the Greek word proktos, which means anus.

Re:Too easy

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you, Captain Obvious!

Re:Too easy

[Anonymous Coward]

proktos .. so what's greek for retentive?

Re:Too easy

[Anonymous Coward]

No problem, Corporal Rumpranger!

Re:Too easy

[Karma_fucker_sucker]

You a missed a perfect opportunity to post the goatse guy and have it be on topic!

Re:Too easy

[toonces33]

Something I read somewhere: I tried an internal modem once, but it hurt when I walked.

Re:Too easy

[Anonymous Coward]

You deserve every point of karma coming to you. Excellent post!

My RFID is blinking red....

[Nick of NSTime]

Will I be renewed?

Re:My RFID is blinking red....

[grazzy]

Due to multiple failures to pay your monthly wal-mart login fee this account will be TERMINATED.
*bzzppp*.

Re:My RFID is blinking red....

[kannibal_klown]

There is no sanctuary!!

Re:My RFID is blinking red....

[pyrrhonist]

That Red's gonna run, I can always tell.

Re:My RFID is blinking red....

[mink]

But Walmart is where I get all my fish, plankton, sea greens and protein from the sea. Fresh as harvest day.

Be very afraid...

[rob_squared]

...but within reason:

-As long as it's not passed.

-As long as the procedure is optional.

-As long as it doesn't become a rider.

Re:Be very afraid...

[daveschroeder]

- It's not even any kind of proposed bill.

- It's a member of a company's board of directors promoting its products.

- Even in some kind of alternate universe where compulsory, mandatory implants for all residents of the United States were a rider on ANY bill, no matter WHAT the bill, it would NEVER pass.

No, really.

Even for those people who think (wildly erroneously, I might add) that the US is a totalitarian police state and one step away from 1984 (or already there).

Re:Be very afraid...

[Gavin Rogers]

Even in some kind of alternate universe where compulsory, mandatory implants for all residents of the United States were a rider on ANY bill, no matter WHAT the bill, it would NEVER pass.

Who said it would need an act of Congress? Get yourself chipped and get a decent reduction in insurance premiums in return and people will wait in line to get one.

Get chipped and you don't have to wait in line at the supermarket.

Get your kids chipped and you can tell where they are at all times and protect them from baddies...

Don't need a law to make it compulsory. I reckon the free market will do just nicely.

Re:Be very afraid...

[berzerke]

...Even in some kind of alternate universe where compulsory, mandatory implants for all residents of the United States were a rider on ANY bill, no matter WHAT the bill, it would NEVER pass...

This assumes people know it is there, and even then it's an iffy assumption. Remember, riders can be added quite literally at the last minute. Slip it in a 100+ page bill that's up for a vote in less than a day, and watch it slip under the radar. It's happened before and will probably happen again.

Re:Be very afraid...

[daveschroeder]

Ok, I'll stipulate to all you've said.

It's this kind of technological advancement that suddenly seems to turn slashdot into anti-technology luddites.

The same technology that brings us everything that you think is great also brings us things like subdermal implantable RFID chips.

The same philosophical arguments people make for things like why P2P is "just a tool, not inherently good or bad" can equally be applied to RFID.

With the internet, the web, things like Google's creations, and tools that have vaulted us beyond anything we thought possible just ten years ago, is it any surprise that such technology can be applied in ways you personally might not agree with?

RFID, even implantable RFID, is not inherently bad.

Nor are the examples you cited to promote it.

Before binoculars, a law enforcement officer might not have been able to see you from as far away.

Before telephones and computers, a government agency might not have been able to as effectively do its work.

The bottom line is that companies and government are going to use and promote technology that will continue to advance.

So what do we do? Outlaw technologies? Outlaw uses of technology? This is a very valid question. With all the outcry of a company attempting to promote a technological product, I'm really curious what an actual answer might be (short of "get rid of all the Republicans") in this very situation. We've got a perfect example right here. So, really, what would you do?

Re:Be very afraid...

[rk]

Never is a word that has a way of biting one in the ass. I totally agree with you... today. Even in the next 10 years, you're probably right. Within the next 50? I don't know if that's a sure bet.

I recall a website that allowed people to bet on future events and put their money where their mouth is. I would be willing to put down a $1000 bet that a chip implantation in humans bill will pass a house of the United States Congress in the next 40 years if you'll pay 5 to 1? Should be easy money for you if you really think it would never happen.

Clarification: My bet is such a rule will only pass either the House or the Senate, not actually become law. I would also be willing to index the bet to inflation, because I think we're likely to have a large bout of inflation a couple times between now and 2045, and it would be good to keep the bet interesting.

Re:Be very afraid...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what's worse: that your post is incredibly funny, or that it's incredibly insightful...

Re:Be very afraid...

[sgt_doom]

QFC and allied food stores are now offering discounts to customers who have been "chipped."

Re:Be very afraid...

[daveschroeder]

Well, I'll agree with you, too. Today, and 50 years from now.

Here's the problem: technology marches on.

Along with the march of technology will inevitably come better ways of, for example, tracking people. Tools that will allow law enforcement agencies or government entities to see farther. Store more. Track discreetly. Listen further.

What is important is how we use those tools. These tools will ALWAYS be abused. But to presume that abuse is the default; that abuse is the intent; is somewhat pessimistic.

Look at all the ways we can be monitored today, instantly. Have they been abused, at times? Sure. Have they been used properly countless more times? Absolutely. The difference may be that I'm willing to accept some abuse - yes, even if it involves me personally, as it has in the past - as just the nature of things. That the good and/or positive benefits massively outweighs the bad and/or abusive uses. The threshold of some folks might be lower than mine, or zero. I simply think that a zero-threshold is impossible, and wishing for it is counterproductive.

ANYTHING can be abused by governments or law enforcement agencies. The technology is NOT the key. It's our system of checks and balances and oversight in our model of government that we hope keeps government in check. I know we have a lot of tinfoilies among us who, quite literally, think the Constitution has been shredded, and Republicans' sole mission is to remove as many rights as possible, and that our civil liberties are disappearing in droves by the second. They're apparently reading a *tad* too much indymedia and truthout, but, nonetheless, I value their eternal vigilance. The fact of the matter is that sometimes there are abuses. Sometimes there are bad provisions in law. Our system of government and application of law is extremely imperfect. But doing away with technologies is not the answer. If you're not advocating that, then how, reasonably, do we prevent technologies from being promoted and used? What if someday we had an implantable device that could only be read with your explicit approval? Would we still be against it? Or would we recognize it as the march of technology?

As a side note, that's the only thing I find wrong with implantable RFID: it's the equivalent of being required to wear outwardly visible identification at all times. You CHOOSE to whom you identify yourself. If you could make the same conscious, explicit choice with a future RFID technology, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. It's just yet another technology that can be both used and abused.

Re:Be very afraid...

[Tim C]

Get chipped and you don't have to wait in line at the supermarket.

You're going to have to explain how that one would work, I'm afraid, as I just can't see it. How does being uniquely identifiable remove the need to queue to purchase things in a busy shop?

Get your kids chipped and you can tell where they are at all times and protect them from baddies...

Again, you'll have to explain it. You can tell where they are if and only if:

1) they are in an establishment that scans the chip
2) that establishment somehow publishes the list of people currently within it
3) there is no way to leave or enter without being scanned (eg bathroom window)
4) no "baddies" go for your kids at any point on their journey between such places
5) you can tell the difference between your kids leaving voluntarily and being forced to leave with a baddy

The list goes on. I despair of people as much as the next misanthrope, but even I can't see significant numbers of people being blind to the fact that there can be almost no safety benefits from having your kids chipped.

Re:Be very afraid...

[grozzie2]

Actually, it's a lot closer than you think. In another year, if you want to fly internationally, you will require a passport, with biometric information encoded on it. It is only a matter of time before some jerk-ass in the department of homeland security decides that an implant chip like this will be mandatory for folks to climb into airplanes in the us for domestic travel. Once that's happened, half the population will be voluntarily tagged.

Once half of the population is tagged voluntarily, a bill to enforce tagging on the other half will pass easily. That tagging will be masqueraded as voluntary, but, lack of a tag will prevent access to all sorts of facilities. After they push it thru for air travel, the next step will be public transit, and then after that, it'll be for access to stadiums etc. Again, all voluntary, but only in an abstract sense.

When they have everybody tagged who flies, commutes on transit, or goes to the ball game, who will be left?

Re:Be very afraid...

[darkbit]

Who said it would need an act of Congress? Get yourself chipped and get a decent reduction in insurance premiums in return and people will wait in line to get one.

In the 1970's it was: "Who cares if gas prices are going up, just get a diesel car. Diesel is a LOT cheaper my friend."

Of course the price of diesel is comparable to gasoline and has always been within pennies of each other. There's no financial benefit here that can't be taken away easily.

The chipping story is merely to scare people. It is a ridiculous idea giving a false sense of security to people who don't understand computing. And the reasons for scaring people won't be discussed here.

Re:Be very afraid...

[Gavin Rogers]

While I was just throwing around some ideas about possible ways companies might want to encourage take-up of RFID implants, Get chipped and you don't have to wait in line at the supermarket is an easy one.

Link the unique ID to your bank account details and with RFID tags on groceries, you and your shopping could walk straight through the RFID gate past all the people who have to fumble with cash or cards.

What is possible right now is fairly limited, but if RFID readers become widespread and networked - which is probably a reasonable assumption - it would be easy to track the whereabouts of any tagged person, just datamine the RFID scanner logs.

Re:Be very afraid...

[Money for Nothin']

  - It's not even any kind of proposed bill.

From TFA:

Thompson, now a director of Applied Digital Solutions, the company that makes the chips, intends to publish the proposal in the next 50 days, by which time he plans to have had a VeriChip inserted in his arm.

No, it's not a proposal -- YET. But it will be soon.

- Even in some kind of alternate universe where compulsory, mandatory implants for all residents of the United States were a rider on ANY bill, no matter WHAT the bill, it would NEVER pass.

100 years ago, people said the same thing about a national ID.

Now we have Social Security Numbers. And national ID cards are almost here., having been approved by the REAL ID Act of 2005

Those of us in our 20s will be required by the U.S. federal government to be chipped by the time we are dead. Mark my words.

Even for those people who think (wildly erroneously, I might add) that the US is a totalitarian police state and one step away from 1984 (or already there).

Compared to other nations, we are not a totalitarian police state, true. But we are without a doubt traveling along a trendline in that direction.

Re:Be very afraid...

[Anonymous Luddite]

>> Get your kids chipped and you can tell where they are at all times and protect them from baddies...

Two things;

• knowing where someone is isn't the same as protecting them.
• You can already get GPS on your kid's cell phone.
  (mine have it, I don't pay for it though. much better to just call and talk to them...)

Re:Be very afraid...

[Money for Nothin']

It's this kind of technological advancement that suddenly seems to turn slashdot into anti-technology luddites.

Just because a particular technology is invented, does that mean it should be used?

Should the atom bomb really have been dropped on Japanese civilians after all?

Technology is neither good nor bad; it just *is*. The problem lies in how we use it. And there, it is a far more problematic question:

* Guns can justifiably be used to save people from dangerous animals and dangerous people. They can also be used to unjustifiably murder people.

* Cars can be used to transport people from one place to another. They can also be used to willfully commit manslaughter, deliver suicide bombs, and so forth.

* Computers can be used to perform all kinds of calculations, process more information in 1 second than an army of people could in a year, and so on. Improperly secured (due to human incompetence), they can also be used to shut down key components of our modern infrastructural institutions (electricity, etc.), to publish words damaging to somebody which may not be true, and so on.

And on and on in endless combination. Blind faith in technology -- like yours -- is an idiotic position to take.

But what would people who write and use software for a living (like the majority of Slashdotters) know about technology anyway?...

Re:Be very afraid...

[Stelminator]

--don't have to wait in line at the supermarket.

put chips in the barcodes, put a chip in you, and put a chip scanner at the door. scanner totals everything up, accesses your credit info, and poof, done! You can even have it print a receipt, so nobody ends up cheated by being charged the wrong amount.

EZ Pass for food.

(for those who don't live in NY/NJ, EZ Pass is an RFID for paying highway tolls, velcro one to your windshield and drive through toll booths without stopping.)

Re:Be very afraid...

[robertgeller]

Just because something is invented doesn't justify its widespread use. It has been made quite obvious by the majority of Americans in the past several years that they are the metaphorical sheep in the herd.

With possible abuse by government and free-market corporations alike, it is quite essential to be cynical. After all, who in history has turned the tide of the slippery slope but cynics?

Re:Be very afraid...

[Anonymous Coward]

Get yourself chipped and get a decent reduction in insurance premiums in return

Or forego the insurance. Get used to the fact that life sucks, sometimes you will hurt badly, injuries can be permanent and eventually you will die.

Get chipped and you don't have to wait in line at the supermarket.

Or be patient and go through the line. Or go through a self-checkout line. No need for implants.

Get your kids chipped and you can tell where they are at all times and protect them from baddies...

Or be sure you get to know your neighbors, put limits on where your kids can go, keep an eye out for them when they are young and so forth.

Sheesh, why is it human beings have survived lo these millions of years and NOW they suddenly have to get chips just to live to the next day? Get a grip, folks.

Re:Be very afraid...

[inode_buddha]

If my info is worth that much then why aren't I selling it myself?

Re:Be very afraid...

[rogabean]

I will be left. While I don't engage in any of these activities now...I might one day. I would continue to choose to never engage in them if such a measure was required to do so however.

Re:Be very afraid...

[Anonymous Coward]

Brings a whole new twist to 'Chipped Beef on Toast'.

Confuse the Man -- get 5 or 6 RFID's implanted.

Re:Be very afraid...

[cliffski]

not far off. one of the big supermarkets in the UK has faster checkouts with mroe staff on them if you have signed up to pay with your store card doodad that records all your purchases.
grrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Re:Be very afraid...

[lifeblender]

I can't find any information about that. Can you post a link or something? Or just name a city where it's happening?

Re:Be very afraid...

[sgt_doom]

It was a joke, dude - although, very shortly....it could be for real.....

Re:Be very afraid...

[lifeblender]

Oh, okay. I found all sorts of interesting stuff about the subdermally implanted RFID chips while searching, though.

No one seems to be using them on people exactly, but it seems to be a pretty big threat. And by threat, I mean it's an invasion of privacy that doesn't help us be more secure, and the way it's pushed may actually work. I for one, will not get something implanted into me that anyone can read until I have some particularly strong need to be IDed everywhere I go.

All the examples they give in support of subdermal RFID are bad. A lot of people with severe medical allergies wear bracelets stating that so the paramedics can read them. Only a government-funded initiative could put RFID readers in every ambulance in the country. Of course, that's how RFID is being pushed, with the aim of securing a high-level government initiative. Me, I'll buy my own scanner, find the thing in my body, and pull it out with my bare hands if I have to.

On a related note, I think the thing to watch for in this campaign would be an attempt to make some form of RFID reader illegal to own for personal use, with some sort of government-issued license required. That's how they could justify the (non-useful) security.

Re:Be very afraid...

[tsotha]

Yeah. After awhile it really will be like credit cards. Sure you have a legal right not to have a credit card, but unless you're driving and sleeping in your car, you can't travel without one anymore.

Once some critical mass is reached in terms of the people who are chipped, companies and the government can make policies expecting you to have one.

"Don't have a chip? Oh, sorry, you'll have to wait in that line to get a "non-chip-person" exception. It has to be signed by my boss, and he's on vacation. You'll have to pick up your heart medication next Tuesday."

Re:Be very afraid...

[Murasaki Skies]

Why not 666?

Re:Be very afraid...

[sgt_doom]

AGREED!

Re:Be very afraid...

[mink]

As someone who does not live in NY or NJ, EZ Pass is uses all over the United States, AFAIK all toll roads that have automated cashless systems use EZ Pass.

This enables someone to drive from IL to NY and not have to fumble with 5 different autopay systems.

Take a trip sometime and check out the rest of the US, there is a lot of keen stuff out there.

Just a "health chip"?

[Gavin Rogers]

From the article:

"According to Procter, the chips can also be used for financial transactions."

Which reminded me of:

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to
receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Easy access for doctors to our medical records or an easy way for someone to control everything we do, go or buy? "Sorry sir, no chip, no entry". hmm.

What does the Electronic Frontiers Foundation say about all this?!

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[bigalsenior]

it's electronic freedom foundation

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Anonymous Coward]

What does the Electronic Frontiers Foundation say about all this?!

They think it's a great idea because it will allow them to more easily monitor abuses of freedom...

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Electronic Frontier Foundation fucktard.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[EEBaum]

it's electronic freedom foundation

No, it's Electronic Frontier Foundation. http://www.eff.org/

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Laptop Dancer]

Wait, the Republicans are the party of the Anti-Christ??

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, the Republicans are the party of the Anti-Christ??

Now wouldn't that be ironic!

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Monkelectric]

I am a complete and unappologetic athiest. However, were a bill like that to pass. I'd be watching out for some horsemen.

I have a weird thought thou. Bush is a fundie, and it is known that Bush things we *are* at the end times. The reason that fundies support Israel, is the bible says the isrealites will be in the holy land and the end times. Could/would he promote a bill like this to inch towards the end times, which he firmly believes in?

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Dachannien]

You may think it odd, but most Christians actually want to stave off the end times, because most of the signs of the end times involve Satan subjugating the world to his will. Being in opposition to Satan, Christians generally want to prevent these things from happening.

That doesn't necessarily mean that all Christians will oppose things like implantable RFID tags. Some will see it as representing the mark of the Beast and all that, and others will see it as just another piece of technology.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't surprise me. They pretend to be the "Jesus Party," but in the end their real "god" is cash.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[enosys]

IMHO that should be modded funny. Saying that the Mark of the Beast is an implanted chip is a very unreasonable interpretation of Revelations. Read the passage and then think about it. The idea that those who accept an implanted chip would be tortured eternally for it is even more crazy. Then there's the question of whether Revelations talks about the Roman Empire or some future events, and how literally it was meant to be taken. Plus, those who are not Christian should be wondering if it's all random psychotic rambling. Attempts to oppose implanted chips for privacy and other reasons should never be linked with such ideas. They could only destroy credibility.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Mattintosh]

Actually, the Bible says no such thing about the Israelites.

The Bible says that "spiritual Israel" will exist, that is, the people who actually want to serve God will be his approved people and will have his protection. It also says that the "war of the great day of God the Almighty" will happen when they "gather at the place that is, in Hebrew, called Har-magedon". That literally translates to "mountain of Megiddo" but there isn't a mountain anywhere near the plains of Megiddo.

Megiddo was a place where many decisive battles took place in ancient times. A battle on a mountain would be something everyone would see for miles around. So when all the nations gather at the "mountain of Megiddo", expect a battle of all the nations of the world vs. God's kingdom army. Everyone will see it, and it will be a decisive battle. As it says numerous times in Ezekiel, "and they shall come to know that I am Jehovah." There will be no escape from this conclusion. It will be completely evident to all onlookers, and that will include everyone in the entire world.

The nation of Israel has no more to do with this than any other nation. They'll be destroyed like all the rest. Why? Because God rejected them when they rejected and killed his son. Their rulership was "cut down" in 607 BC, but they were restored to freedom. But when they out-and-out rejected the Messiah, that was the end of any favor shown to them by God. The Romans destroyed their "nation" in 70 AD and there wasn't even a fight. Even when they were "punished" in 617-607 BC, there was a 10-year fight. The literal nation of Israel no longer has any backing from God. Heck, they went completely out of existence for almost 2000 years.

Of course, you're correct in your assertion that Bush (and the rest of the world's leaders) are pushing toward that final battle. "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." So said the apostle Paul in an inspired letter to a first-century Christian congregation. Satan has control of the political, economic and religious systems of the world. That makes George W. Bush a tool of the devil. (Along with every other president in history, and all other kings, chancellors, prime ministers, premieres, dictators, etc...)

Jeremiah 10:23 states that "It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step." Man should not, cannot, and will not rule himself. Only God's kingdom has the ability to rule mankind. And that is the issue here.

People think that the number "666" is going to literally show up on tax forms or something. It's not. 6 is a number that signifies something falling short of heavenly perfection (which is symbolized by 7). 3 is used for emphasis. So the number 6 repeated 3 times is something emphatically deficient. The failing governments of the world fit that bill perfectly.

Perhaps you're an atheist because of all the "fundie" idiots out there that sound crazy. (And truly, they are!) Don't misunderstand the Bible and reject it because people have twisted it. Read it. Study it. Perhaps you too may learn what it says and why it says that. Then you can calm down, enjoy life, have a happy hope for the future, and laugh when people start mingling conspiracy theories with biblical allusions. (Yes, I laughed before I posted all this. It's quite refreshing to be able to laugh and shrug something off when it's as disturbing as this story is.)

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[knewter]

I'm staying out of the conversation in general. However...

Credibility is a funny thing. Lots of incredulous ideas turned out right. Also, credibility of the sort you refer to seems to be a very fluid thing - remember how heliocentricity was a stupid idea? Yeah, the worst part is, there are things that we think of today as just as incredulous, and we're wrong. Very wrong. So I try to avoid people saying things like that within my hearing, because screw credibility. Just be right.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Bible says that "spiritual Israel" will exist, that is, the people who actually want to serve God will be his approved people and will have his protection.

Hmm.
Bush: "[you] are either with us, or against us"
And he is focusing on having volunteers in the armed forces.
He installed Mr.Bolton when congress was out of session.

I think it's safe to say he has some preferences among people.

Anyway, I liked your post as I have considered the bible, for this day and age, to be taken as more symoblic rather than literal. It's amazing how this document has influenced thinking and behavior for a couple thousand years.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[roman_mir]

As I am sure that people hundreds of years ago could not predit microchip implants, I am convinced that the scriptures are historical documents and should be regarded as such. Thus a question: were there occurances in history preceeding this particular revelation, when and where people were required to prove that they are allowed to buy/sell goods in specific areas (for example maybe you could only buy/sell stuff if you already paid some tax to the local government.)

This seems to me as a much more plausible explanation to this particular question than an assumption that the bible actually is correct in predicting the future (which I certainly don't believe at all.)

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Misanthropy]

As a future doctor (2nd year med student), I can see how this sort of thing could help in an emergency situation. But I think that the potential for abuse is too great.

As of now I'm volunteering to remove anyone's implant at no cost (after I get my MD of course :).

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[demachina]

"most Christians actually want to stave off the end times"

Did you do a poll or something to figure this out? What was the results 56% against Satan taking over the earth, 44% for and 10% have never heard of Satan?

This source, which I am sure is as above reproach as your data says 85% of bible scholars believe in the rapture. The rapture is a BOOMING business in fundamentalist Christian circle these days, especially thanks to the Internet.

To use your phrasing, and with the assurance my poll has as much validity as yours... "most" born agains who subscribe to the rapture are bursting with anticipation of the end times so they can be called to heaven and on the way up can have the last laugh as all the non believers and worshipers of false gods burn in hell.

"That doesn't necessarily mean that all Christians will oppose things like implantable RFID tags"

I wager "most" can with suitable conditioning(i.e. nightmare scenarios of danger and insecurity) be made to see this as essential to their security, essential to "protect the children", essential to being able to identify bad elements in society. Pre 2001 I would have though it impossible that Americans would stand for national ID cards and those were authorized as an obscure provision in the recent nation intelligence "reform" act and are now nearly inevitable, and will no doubt be chipped in one way or another.

If this company wants a slam dunk way to get support for this all they need to do is point out all sex offenders will have these tags, their tag information will be made available on the Internet, and they will market do it yourself readers so you to can instantly identify if there are sex offenders within 100 feet of your home. You could hook it up to an alarm so if sex offender gets near your home alarms will sound and the police will be notified.

Another slam dunk way to sell it, with tiny ethical problems, you could maybe put mandatory religious preference and ethnic identifiers in the chip so you could setup alarms to go off if Muslims, Atheists, or whatever ethnic or religious group you despise gets to close to you, your children or your home.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[demachina]

"a very unreasonable interpretation of Revelations"

Could you point me to some reasonable interpretations of Revelations?

"if it's all random psychotic rambling"

I'm pretty sure whomever wrote that book must have gotten a dose of ergot mold off some rotten rye (the natural precursor for LSD was).

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Zeromous]

If you want a good laugh read:

Christ Clone Trilogy by James BeauSeigneur

Entertaining if you can get past the long drawn out character sketches. BeauSeigneur obviously has researched both his conspiracy and biblical theory and woven a creative tale incorporating the two. Like any tale of this magnititude, the story weakens as the finely woven threads come together, but still, this series is an accomplishment in consolidating conspiracy and the bible without completely disrespecting true believers.

Both parent posts should check it out!

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm living pretty well and happy w/out those beliefs . I don't have to wonder if anything is being misinterpreted, or any passage is being missed, before wondering whether I'm in a diety's grace.

On the number 666 though .. It doesn't match up with other sources I've read. It's much more likely to be ancient numerology for the emperor of Rome (Nero, I think?). It's much more fitting of the times, and the superstitions.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[deathy_epl ccs]

I think you'll get a lot of takers on that... especially if you can team up with someone who can blank (i.e. no digital identity in the system) them at the same time.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[__int64]

Most incitefull thing I've heard all week, now if only the rest of the Earth's population could imbibe such a thing.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[revscat]

I don't think that is accurate at all. There are far too many members of my family who are "Left Behind" nutbags, and who quietly acquiesce to crap like this because they believe it "inevitable". Why fight it if the Bible says it is going to happen? Indeed, wouldn't they get a little egotistical thrill out of this? "Look! I'm right! Yay now we get to wear RFID chips in our skulls! PRAISE GOD!"

And don't try and tell them they have misinterpreted the Bible. That's just crazy liberal talk.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Jasin Natael]

I agree. Take a lot of the Bible as general, (often good!) principles for making people participate in a successful society, but don't say that this or that will literally happen because it's written about in the Bible. The Bible is a long-running story, but at the same time it's a general commentary on what people discovered about human nature in the course of 5,000+ years of recorded history. It also deals with a society (the Israelites) who kept meticulous records, protected them, and valued education.

So, I agree with the parent that it's not prophecy as much as retelling. But remember that it doesn't render the text meaningless. Rather, it just makes it that much more forceful. It's as if someone is trying to say, in a way that common men will heed, "All the rules we've given you for society are good, in our judgement and those of our fathers. Here, we present elements of human nature that people will exhibit in large groups -- and which you, as a society, will have to battle collectively to ensure your survival."

I can imagine that this probably occurred dozens, if not hundreds of times. And since it got written down in this context, take it for the sincerest warning it is.

--Jasin Natael

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Anonymous Coward]

""The Romans destroyed their "nation" in 70 AD and there wasn't even a fight. Even when they were "punished" in 617-607 BC, there was a 10-year fight. The literal nation of Israel no longer has any backing from God. Heck, they went completely out of existence for almost 2000 years.""

Last I checked, we're still here. Where are the Romans again?

Exactly. God is still taking care of us.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Dachannien]

A lot of Christians don't believe that the Rapture will happen before the seven-year "tribulation", but instead right in the middle or at the end. Those people generally don't want the events of the end times to come around, because they believe that they'll get into heaven when they die anyway. In other words, there's no need to suffer for 3.5 or 7 years just to be raptured away, when they (and zillions of other Christians) could just live a long and happy life and then die without the massive persecution of Christians prophesied to occur during the end times, only to arrive at the same result.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[demachina]

Well all I can say to this is any religion where people seriously ponder, expect or at worst promote an imminent and apocalyptic end to all life on earth is pretty much psychotic.

It just never ceases to amaze me what people will accept when its shovelled by a religion, especially one that has achieved a dominant and majority position in society.

I have a pretty high confidence if Judaism and Christianity hadn't existed until now, and something resembling a cult were to try to propagate Christianity, and the books of Revelations, from a standing start today they would be persecuted mercilessly, like for example David Koresh was in Waco, or like the early Christians were by the Roman empire.

Apocalyptic religions are simply nuts, and when their believers gain control of a government with apocalyptic weapons its beyond nuts, its immensely dangerous.

If you get people with an apocalyptic belief system in charge of government you can be sure they wont care about things like global warming because they are of a mindset that life on earth wont be around long enough for it to matter anyway.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[enosys]

Where I mentioned credibility I meant in the context of convincing people to oppose implanted chips. There it definitely matters. Many people would have doubts about an organization which insists that the chips would be the mark of the beast, yet they would agree with other reasons against them. For example look on Slashdot.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[HiThere]

Well, there was that line about
"...shall show great signs and wonders so that if were possible he should deceive the very elect".

If you wanted to claim that, there's scriptural evidence making you claim plausible...to the extent that people believe such evidence.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Your Pal Dave]

Could you point me to some reasonable interpretations of Revelations?

PBS Frontline had an interesting episode called "apocalypse!" which has a background essay which you might find interesting. Alas, they don't have the entire show online, just excerpts.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[TheGavster]

Don't misunderstand the Bible and reject it because people have twisted it. Read it. Study it. Perhaps you too may learn what it says and why it says that.

There is no reason to follow your religious text more than any other. In fact, you could follow a non-religious text of sufficient volume and get much the same result. As long as you can pick out sentences to say "we should all get along, and by the way the government is evil. oh, and don't forget to hate people who aren't like you". Can you honestly come up with any other themes from your personal escape of choice?

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're new here, aren't you?

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Sancho]

It makes sense for evangelists to want to stave off the end for as long as possible, in order to save every soul they can. Yes, it is inevitable, however that doesn't mean there isn't work to be done before the end.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[demachina]

That was sarcasm friend. Revelations is pretty much devoid of reason so I don't think you can produce a "reasonable interpretation".

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[daspriest]

"People think that the number "666" is going to literally show up on tax forms or something. It's not. 6 is a number that signifies something falling short of heavenly perfection (which is symbolized by 7). 3 is used for emphasis. So the number 6 repeated 3 times is something emphatically deficient. The failing governments of the world fit that bill perfectly."

Except nowadays, the number of the beast has been downgraded from 666 to 616(which alternately is the area code of a few towns in michigan, coincidence?).

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Cally]

Zarking fardwarks... it's threads like this that make me despair for humankind and indeed the rest of life on this planet. Personally, I'm relying on a bottle of champagne and a couple of spliffs for a few huors' happinesss. Well, hopefully I'll be able to forget there are otherwise rational intelligent people who persist in believing in fairies.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[slothman32]

The problem with reading the Bible, and other texts of that nature, is that it is too subjective. Most people will say, "Well you can't just read one verse. You have to read the whole thing." They then tell you that you "just have to know." In other words if you don't agree with them you didn't interpret it correctly.
Even if I read it, what do I do with that information?

What does:
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. (1 Corinthians 2:9 KJV)
mean? I assume that is correct. I just copied it from another site.

Do I need to know other parts to interpret it? Is it like DNA where you have to know everything to figure out the creature? Or can only one part be interpreted at a time?

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Thing 1]

Similarly, if you can convince your followers that those who aren't your followers, also aren't human, then you can cause your followers to do some pretty horrific things.

Witches weren't human, they were somehow supernatural, and therefore should float when normal people should sink (the tragedy is you're dead either way--so avoid being accused!).

Scientologists believe that it is okay to steal from, lie to, and even kill non-followers. I won't link to any of it but there's evidence a quick Google search away.

Not only is apocalyptic-style religion bad, but also any religion which promotes "life after death". This then leads to thinking that killing people isn't all that bad, because if they were good they they're "in heaven" and if they were bad then they deserved to die anyway and would be "in hell" and never again seen by "the good people".

I think this could be the end times, and much evidence points to the Bush administration being directly or indirectly involved in the attacks (he kept reading the book to the 2nd-graders; and then he flew 124 Saudis out of the country--instead of questioning them!)--so I would not be surprised if he began a nuclear war before the end of his presidency.

Then again, this could just be the next challenge. I'm sure there were plenty of people who thought Hitler was the beginning of the end times, but we got by him and then we invented computers, and totally changed communication on the planet.

We can get by Bush, as well.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Anonymous Coward]

That gem got missed, LOL

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[revscat]

The desire to see our egos affirmed outweighs any altruistic motives evangelicals may hold.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Jane_Dozey]

'"Sorry sir, no chip, no entry"'

"Screw you then, I'm going to the corner store that can't afford a reader"

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[scottv67]

As of now I'm volunteering to remove anyone's implant at no cost

What if we come to a point where boarding a form of mass transit requires that a passenger have a chip implanted? A human attempting to board without a chip will set off an alarm.

The real demand won't be physicians who can remove the chips, it will be for "connected" physicians who can remove the original chip and then successfully implant a new chip which provides a new, generic identity: "Welcome aboard Northworst Airlines Flight 739, Mister John Doe"

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Your Pal Dave]

You really should read the linked article, then. A lot of scholars argue that Relevations is really a comment on the Roman politics of the day.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[TheoMurpse]

Duh.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[TractorBarry]

By the brine addled bucket of our righeously indiganant saviour "K.P. Nuts" - What is it with you Americans and your bloody Bible quotes ? "Oooh look somethings happened just like it sez on the good book". Fuck me you'd think you were some tribe of Papua New Guineans who (whilst having a splendid oral culture) had just seen their first book.

Wake up you numptys. There's more to life than a hodge podge collection of middle eastern fairy tales...

Go read the Bhagavad-Gita.

Go read the Koran.

Go to the Dharma.

Honestly your obsession with the Bible makes you look like morons to the rest of the world.

As it clearly states in St Bobius 14th: And lo it was written, in the fifteenth day of the great closing down sayle of the temple, that upon the face of the waters there came to pass a great wind. Yea beloved verily t'was it written that whomesoever shall experienth this wind will be given eternal knowledge of it's windiness and shall henceforth and unto this day be blessed by the one true LORD (or one of its chosen representatives - check catalogue for availability) itself

Ho hum... Meanwhile back at the ranch...

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Anonymous Coward]

An interesting thing though:

{
Megiddo was a place where many decisive battles took place in ancient times. A battle on a mountain would be something everyone would see for miles around. So when all the nations gather at the "mountain of Megiddo", expect a battle of all the nations of the world vs. God's kingdom army. Everyone will see it, and it will be a decisive battle. As it says numerous times in Ezekiel, "and they shall come to know that I am Jehovah." There will be no escape from this conclusion. It will be completely evident to all onlookers, and that will include everyone in the entire world.
}

Everyone in the entire world seeing an event take place just was not physically possible, feasible, or even imaginable until about 50 years ago when television came into vogue (for the first almost-50 years television existed it was not much more than a scientific curiosity and a toy for uber-rich geek hackers of the time), and a good long while after that until live worldwide transmissions were possible.

Just an observation on the tangent you brought up.

I'm a Christian Fundie, BTW, but I don't buy into any of the end times theories. Remember: Fundamentalists believe the basic FUNDAMENTALS of a teaching. Extremists are the wackos who take things out of context and get into fanatacism and start killing doctors at clinics, bombing nightclubs, and (in the case of Islam) start hijacking aircraft to attack major civilian targets.

For the future? I believe that if there is a GOD that He wins, bad guys (Devil/Satan/Lucifer/whatever) loses, and those who trust in Christ win with Him. Everything beyond that is pointless bickering and only leads to bitterness.

It'll be more interesting to not speculate and get caught up in trying to compare every event to Revelation (abomination of desolation already took place by the way: see siege of jerusalem in Josephus' writings), but to watch and see who's right and what actually happens.

For all I know GOD may really just be a fable; if so, then no harm done, right? (See Pascal's Wager).

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[omasum]

Most people will say, "Well you can't just read one verse. You have to read the whole thing." They then tell you that you "just have to know."

Reading the surrounding verses or the chapter for context usually helps. I disagree with needing to read the whole Bible (assuming "whole thing" means "whole Bible") to understand most of the Bible, and nobody "just knows" anything God or the Bible (the verse you quote below refutes their logic).

In other words if you don't agree with them you didn't interpret it correctly.

Having an interpretation of some Bible verses that differs from someone else or from an orthodox position doesn't necessarily mean the interpretation is wrong. It's important that the interpretation is supported with scripture and doesn't contradict scripture. For example, someone could quote Leviticus 24:20 (the "eye for an eye" law) to justify an act of personal vengeance (similar to saying "I'm allowed to murder because a judge can issue a death sentence"), but Christ argues against that reasoning in Matthew 5:38-39. This may not be the best example out there, but taking verses out of context like this is commonly used to argue that the Bible says something that it doesn't.

Even if I read it, what do I do with that information?

The Bible claims to be the recorded words of God that he gave to (literally "breathed into") His prophets and apostles (2 Timothy 3:16). This is my summary of the most important points in the Bible: Adam's sin (Genesis 2:17, 3:6) has corrupted mankind (Romans 5:12) and sentenced his descendants to physical death (Romans 6:23) and hell afterwards (Matthew 13:47-50). To atone for their own sins, God's people had to make certain animal sacrifices (e.g. Numbers 15:22-24) to Him. God sent His Son Jesus Christ, to be born of a virgin (Matthew 1:18-25), as a final sacrifice for the sins of whoever would follow Him (Matthew 10:32, John 3:14-21, Romans 10:9, Ephesians 5:2, Hebrews 7:27, 1 John 1:9) to escape judgment. The Jews rejected Him as the Messiah who would save them, and had Him crucified (Matthew 26:59-27:56, Mark 15, Luke 23, John 18-19). Jesus was buried, but rose again three days later (Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, John 20-21). (I have the verses listed out in my journal if you want to read them in one spot.)

Most of the Bible ties into the above points in some way, either describing the history that lead up to Jesus (the Old Testament books), the events of His time (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John), or the first century church Christian writings (the rest of the New Testament). Depending on what you read, you could determine (with God's help through prayer or with the help of Christians who don't say "you just have to know") how it ties into God's plan to send His Son or the results of following Him. The verse you quote below is a good example...

What does: "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. (1 Corinthians 2:9 KJV) mean? ... Do I need to know other parts to interpret it?

In verses 1-8 before this, Paul explains that when he met the Corinthians (that he's now writing to), he wasn't aiming to impress them with worldly wisdom, but to share God's wisdom.
Verse 10 says:
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Verse 9 and 10 say that nobody knows with worldly wisdom (e.g. seeing, hearing, or just knowing) the reward of being a Christian / follower of Christ ("them that love him.") since only His Spirit shares that.
Verses 12 through 14 continue, distinguishing God's wisdom that His Spirit gives with wisdom that the world teaches:
(12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
(13) Which things also we speak, not in the words whic

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[demachina]

I read the essay, it was interesting in a way, and it was informative that it was common style of writing and might have been about contemporary events around the year 90. But it was also tedious and ripe with speculation like all interpretations of Revelation. Not sure I would call it reasonable interpretation either. It was massive guess work too.

If it really was entirely about Roman persecution of Christains in their early years it makes all the current obsession with it even more insane. Unfortunately we get to live with the interpretations of modern Scofield bible variety which is leading people with mental problems to obsess about the end of life as we know it and the second coming.

Conclusion, revelation is written in such a way that you can read pretty much anything in to you want.

Re:Just a "health chip"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't the Koran a "hodge podge collection of middle eastern fairy tales"? Or is it from some other locale?

hacking

[gid13]

Well, if it's easy to misuse the system to track people, at least you'll know where to find the people responsible. ;)

Re:hacking

[cbreaker]

The problem is, the people responsible for abusing such a system would probably be well known - government leaders that you elected. Go figure.

Re:hacking

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is, the people responsible for abusing such a system would probably be well known - government leaders that you elected.

Such credulity, it's touching...

Re:hacking

[Shajenko42]

Although not meant to be serious, I'll respond anyway.

Most likely the people responsible will exempt themselves from the system, as they always do.

Oh god

[utopianfiat]

When is someone going to say the three words we've all wanted to say to this:
WHAT THE FUCK?

Re:Oh god

[germanStefan]

I think you just said it

Re:Nah, just for immigrants.

[pwnage]

Don't bother us native born people with it.

You mean, like Tim McVeigh?

I see it now...

[mrMango]

I'm sure you could opt out of these things, but I'd bet most employers would require them. Sounds like a precursor to GATTICA to me.

Re:I see it now...

[Anonymous Coward]

It was GATTACA (all the letters represented DNA molecules)

I don't know what scares me more...

[no_pets]

I don't know what scares me more, that the chips have been developed and are being promoted or that the general public will probably believe that it's a good idea.

Let Dubya be '666'

[Anonymous Coward]

ha ha

No way.

[TheOtherAgentM]

The only chip that goes inside my body is the potato kind...possibly the tortilla kind too.

Re:No way.

[elwin_windleaf]

I can just see the future Slashdot headline...

"VeriChip and Ruffles join, create new RFID 'chip'"

Re:No way.

[Zak3056]

I can just see the future Slashdot headline...

"VeriChip and Ruffles join, create new RFID 'chip'"

To be followed shortly thereafter by "Intel merges with Frito-lay. New company to focus on 'system on a chip' designs."

Re:No way.

[OldManAndTheC]

It would be even better if former Homeland Security chief Tom Ridge and his wife bought the chip company.

Then the headline would be "Ridges have Ruffles!"

This is a terrible idea

[ReformedExCon]

There are many reasons why this is a bad idea, the first and foremost that it violates the 4th Amendment. Americans have the right to be secure in their person. It's the first right laid out in the amendment.

The second problem is that there is very little benefit compared to the cost. The cost being the pain and suffering involved in getting implanted in addition to the medical costs involved in having it inserted.

Add to this the amount of conspiracy talk that's bound to arise, and you're looking at a real lashback from the populace.

You'll find me in favor of the government doing a lot of things, but this is not one of them. It's a poorly thought-through idea and should be resisted as much as possible.

Re:This is a terrible idea

[Anonymous Coward]

The cost being the pain and suffering involved in getting implanted in addition to the medical costs involved in having it inserted.

This is the only part that's not totally accurate... it has an obvious and immediate benefit in healthcare, where it would make it immensely easier for emergency treatment providers to instantly know what medicines you're allergic to, what your medical history is, etc., which could very easily save lives.

Can you do the same thing carrying your info around on a card? Sure... but it's faster and less prone to forgetting it somewhere.

Now, obviously one benefit doesn't make it a great idea... but the idea that there's no benefit to this is simply wrong and an exaggeration.

Re:This is a terrible idea

[ReformedExCon]

I didn't say that there was no benefit, only that the benefits do not outweigh the cost. There are benefits, as you've rightly mentioned.

But that aside, why would you have this implanted in your arm? Arms can be severed, crushed, shredded in combines, and otherwise destroyed. Wouldn't somewhere like the back of the neck be a better place to put the chip? If your neck becomes injured to the point that the chip is unreadable, then it's probably a safe bet that you won't make it.

Re:This is a terrible idea

[berzerke]

...Can you do the same thing carrying your info around on a card? Sure... but it's faster and less prone to forgetting it somewhere...

Gee, ever heard of a medic alert braclet? I've even seen people with them. "Cards? We don't need no stinking cards."

Re:This is a terrible idea

[berzerke]

There are many reasons why this is a bad idea, the first and foremost that it violates the 4th Amendment...

Since when has violating the various amendments stopped, or even bothered, "our" government anymore?

Re:This is a terrible idea

[IceCreamGuy]

What are you talking about? This is not some huge circuit board they're talking about implanting in people, it's a tiny sliver of platic and metal far less than the size of a dime; http://www.adsx.com/prodservpart/graphics/verichip .jpg. These costs you're talking about won't be any more than a prick in the arm and a minimal charge, especially if you have health insurance. This isn't major surgery or anything. From a Wired magazine article: "The rice-size device costs $200. Those implanted must also pay for the doctor's injection fee and a monthly $10 database maintenance charge, said ADS spokesman Matthew Cossolotto." (http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,55999,00 .html) If this is a govornment-backed movement, then the price would be even less than that, as no doubt the database they are talking about would be govornment-maintained, so we're talking about a $200 initial fee, plus an injection fee (note "injection," not "expensive surgery"), all of which would likely be subsidied by the govornment, so pretty much a minimal cost to the end user. I mean, I can understand being freaked out by the idea, but there's no need to be alarmist. -Julius

Re:This is a terrible idea

[Anonymous Coward]

There are many reasons why this is a bad idea, the first and foremost that it violates the 4th Amendment. Americans have the right to be secure in their person. It's the first right laid out in the amendment.

It's a violation of the 4th Amendment for a company to promote its product? News to me. Clearly you didn't read the article, I guess. The director of the company who makes the chips is promoting it. The CEO of the company who sells the chips is promoting it.

Of course, since this is /., I guess that the fact that Tommy Thompson was a former Bush cabinet official makes it "news". If Thompson's name hadn't been mentioned, then we wouldn't be reading about it here.

For those who claim a vast right wing conspiracy to promote a national ID system, I'll just point out that the Republical controlled Congress ditched President Clinton's national ID program pretty handily. And Social Security (with its accompanying number) was most definitely not a creation of the right wing.

Now it's time for the liberal apologists and fanboys to pop out of the woodwork and throw some of their usual pretzel logic at the situation.

Have at it, boys! I'll just sit back and chuckle at the hystrionics.

Re:This is a terrible idea

[TheGavster]

There is a risk of infection associated with any sort of implantation. Heck, you could lose a limb if there's a little piece of the right stuff on the end of a needle getting immunized. The difference is, the risk of limb loss from dirty needles is less than the risk of dying from tuberculosis of you don't get immunized. These chips don't have quite the same positive effect on life expectancy.

"We finally got it right"

[Loundry]

"We've been working on this for years, it almost feels like an eternity," quipped thompson while lighting a cigar. "It took us 665 iterations before we feel like we got it right. Now we think everyone should have it. Now."

Re:Nah, just for immigrants.

[Stonent1]

Well then if that's the case, lobby for everyone to have it. I'm willing to take the chance and just tag non-native citizens.

Can this be used for remote control?

[GoatSucker]

I hope the chips have a remote control receiver - I'm definitely signing up for this!

Re:Can this be used for remote control?

[Sancho]

You want to be remotely controlled?

Way ahead of you!

[jfengel]

I've been wearing my stylish tin-foil hat to keep the mind-control rays OUT. Fortunately, this flexible and fashionable garment also serves to keep RF identifiers IN.

And if they decide to plant the chip in a more sensitive place, my tin-foil cup has been protecting my precious bodily fluids for years.

(Yes, I know that RFIDs respond to outside RF, not generate it themselves. The gag is funnier my way. Relax.)

Re:Way ahead of you!

[Shook18]

Tin-foil cup!? So... h... CHAFING!

Re:Way ahead of you!

[amigabill]

Yea, perhaps a whole new tinfoil fashion industry will come into being here. Tin foil shirts, tin foil boxers, tin foil suits... Hey, with all this RFID protection going on, could you not also be your own Man-Tenna for all your mobile wifi gear?

Amputees

[Anonymous Coward]

"Thompson, now a director of Applied Digital Solutions, the company that makes the chips, intends to publish the proposal in the next 50 days, by which time he plans to have had a VeriChip inserted in his arm."

I am an amputee, you insensitive clod!

Re:Amputees

[Anonymous Coward]

I am an amputee, you insensitive clod!

Don't worry, with the coming of the New World Order, you'll get it in your head.

Movie reference!

[kc0re]

Doesn't this remind you of.. Arnold... Mars... Had to pull the thing of out his nose... wtf was that movie...

Total Recall.. Doesn't this remind you of total Recall?

Re:Movie reference!

[kannibal_klown]

Well, in the movie, that in-the-nose thing wasn't in everybody, just him. They tagged him so they'd always know where he was.

A better example would be Demolition Man.

Re:Movie reference!

[dtungsten]

Doesn't this remind you of.. Arnold... Mars... Had to pull the thing of out his nose... wtf was that movie...

You seem to be having TOTAL difficulty RECALLing the name of the movie.

What A Hysterical Submission

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice to see that the submitter didn't even bother to explain what these chips are or what they would be used for.

A chip containing information about a person's medical information would actually be useful in the event of an emergency. This would be more complete than medical bracelets that some people have now. Or verifying the identity of a person. There does some to be many beneficial uses for thie technology.

The submission makes it sound like this is some government program that is going to be chipping everybody in the near future, when it is just a private company selling it.

The last sentence in this summary was completely unnecessary and gratuitous. It seems the editors like trolling people as much as the the worse readers.

Re:What A Hysterical Submission

[EEBaum]

From TFA:

According to Procter, the chips can also be used for financial transactions.
...
The VeriChip is inserted at the club and means club-goers will no longer have to wait in line to pay to get in and will be able to use the chip to pay their bar bill.

This company hasn't started chipping yet, and they're already talking about using it for non-medical uses.

Re:What A Hysterical Submission

[Anonymous Coward]

The submission makes it sound like this is some government program that is going to be chipping everybody in the near future, when it is just a private company selling it.

There is no tinfoil in my wardrobe, but with the government we have now and the way things have been moving for the last few years, mandatory chipping of citizens is not an "if" so much as a "when."

The public may need to be frightened into accepting it by another large-scale terrorist attack on US soil, but the day is coming when the first thing a doctor does after slapping a newborn will be to implant the kid's chip.

Re:What A Hysterical Submission

[Potor]

Garbage. How is this more helpful than bracelets? Chronic conditions do not change that much, and bracelets are fine for such conditions.

Moreover, reading a bracelet requires a bracelet, and eyes. Applied Digital Solutions can't sell you the eyes, nor charge you (nor the gov't, nor insurers) $200 USD for a bracelet.

At best it is an example of industry and governmental collusion, aimed at sucking up the funds (your money) set aside by the prez.

At worst, it will be a campaign to desensitise citizens.

I fear the best, and the worst.

Re:What A Hysterical Submission

[Anonymous Coward]

So what happens when 6 or 8 companies come out with competing RFID chips? Am I going to have a handful of chips just to get into all my different clubs??

Re:What A Hysterical Submission

[EEBaum]

Am I going to have a handful of chips just to get into all my different clubs??

Indeed. Pretty soon Heroin addicts won't be the only ones with all sorts of needle marks in their arms!

"Dude, you should seek rehab. People can help you with your addiction."
"Addiction to what?"

New tech, same old issues.

[TripMaster Monkey]

There is no doubt that these chips can benefit a significant number of people...from medical information to bar tabs, the applications are endless. However, we shouldn't lose sight of one important application these chips are being pushed for...

From TFA:

Civil liberties groups such as Caspian in the US fear that the need for increased security in the wake of terrorist attacks could act as a catalyst for a more widespread use of VeriChips.

That's really what this is all about, isn't it? Unfortunately, although many may consider implanted RFID chips to be the security 'magic wand', this simply isn't the case. If a beach club can program and insert a chip for you, it's not too far a stretch to imagine terrorist groups programming and inserting bogus chips in their operatives. In the context of security, all this does is create a false sense of security.

The other major concern regarding implanted RFID chips is the increased danger of information/identity theft. If all a thief needs to do to lift your information, including your identity, medical records, and bar tabs, is stand next to you on the subway, we're going to see a whole new chapter written in the history of information theft.

Re:New tech, same old issues.

[jcr]

There is no doubt that these chips can benefit a significant number of people..

I'd rather a mugger demanded my wallet, than scanned me for my ID chip and cut it out.

This is a bad idea for anything but livestock. If anyone ever pressures me to get one of these, he will get a vigorous refusal, which may include the use of firearms.

-jcr

Re:New tech, same old issues.

[danila]

I always wondered how many people would actually resist when confronted with a carefully crafted scenario where their peers accept any ridiculous measure. I remember there were psychological experiements on peer pressure, where individual participants had a very high likelyhood of agreeing with a clearly wrong statement, provided that their peers (who were actors) agree with it first.

How cool would it be to run an experiement like that in an airport and ask random people to submit to an cavity search behind a translucent curtain after a few tens of other people (all actors) had to endure the same? I bet a surprising number of people wouldn't do anything if they are under the impression that everyone else has accepted the new measure.

Re:New tech, same old issues.

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

And as a liberal/Libertarian, this is why i've ALWAYS supported the right to own firearms.

Liberty can only be upheld by citizens that have the right to grab a gun and stand ground.

The government and our corperate leaders must be stopped and better representation is desperately required.

There is no way I would accept being forced to install a chip into me. FIRST OFF, how many people are squeamish about surgery? How big are these chips? Can they be injected, or do they need to be surgerically installed?

What is the long term health problems associated with it?

There is just no way :) It's crazy and Tommy Thompson can go fuck himself.

The point about credit cards, drivers liscenses etc is very well made. It may be volentary at first, but sooner or later.. it will be like having to give your social security number to get fucking "cable service". Yes you shouldnt have to give them your SS, but if you dont, they refuse service to you.

Re:New tech, same old issues.

[Anonymous Coward]

> This is a bad idea for anything but livestock.

What do you think we are to our rulers?

> If anyone ever pressures me to get one of these, he will get a vigorous refusal, which may include the use of firearms.

Why? The stockyards are not at war with the cattle.

Medical uses are realistic

[InternationalCow]

Before we all jump to the obvious conclusion that implanting chips will interfere with civic rights (which it can), it is worthwhile to consider that such implants can be useful. As a medical doctor I encounter patients everey day, who have no clear recollection of their medical history or the medication that they use. In the recent I've prescribed medication that was potentially dangerous because of interference with another drug that the patient was taking but forgot to tell me about when asked. If the pharmacist hadn't noticed there might have been a serious problem. The same applies to genetic conditions that affect medical care. These are often too complicated for the average patient to understand or report correctly. Adverse drug reactions, idem. An electronic patient file can solve these problems but one does not always have access to those. So, there are definitely opportunities here to improve medical care and ease the administrative burden for doctors. I would like to have this technology. As for the privacy issues - if you use a credit card to pay your way through life, you have already given up a lot of your privacy. Same goes for any other process that involves the registration of personal data (such as buying a car). Thorny issue, though.

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[Anonymous Coward]

"Before we all jump to the obvious conclusion that implanting chips will interfere with civic rights (which it can), it is worthwhile to consider that such implants can be useful. As a medical doctor I encounter patients everey day, who have no clear recollection of their medical history or the medication that they use. In the recent I've prescribed medication that was potentially dangerous because of interference with another drug that the patient was taking but forgot to tell me about when asked. If the pharmacist hadn't noticed there might have been a serious problem. The same applies to genetic conditions that affect medical care. These are often too complicated for the average patient to understand or report correctly. Adverse drug reactions, idem. An electronic patient file can solve these problems but one does not always have access to those. So, there are definitely opportunities here to improve medical care and ease the administrative burden for doctors. I would like to have this technology. As for the privacy issues - if you use a credit card to pay your way through life, you have already given up a lot of your privacy. Same goes for any other process that involves the registration of personal data (such as buying a car). Thorny issue, though."

You ( if you really are a doctor, which I doubt ) are living proof that even a dumb fuck can get a medical degree. There are plenty of ways to store data without resorting to implantation.

I really wish these discussions were face-to-face, so I could
bitch-slap your sorry ass.

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[CarrionBird]

Martial law can be useful too. Doesn't make it a good idea though.

Thing is, this could be put in a card or a brecelet and be only minimally less effective, with fewer bad implications.

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[serutan]

Doctor, you already HAVE this technology and you've had it all your life. It's called pieces of paper. People who WANT to keep a good record of their medical history have always had the ability to do it. It's a matter of their choice, not your convenience. It's certainly no reason to dog-tag the entire country.

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[Reverberant]

In the recent I've prescribed medication that was potentially dangerous because of interference with another drug that the patient was taking but forgot to tell me about when asked

Instead of storing this data in an implanted chip, why not encode this data on re-writable magnetic strip on a credit-card-type card (with no personally identifiable info) that you can keep in your wallet/purse/keychain etc?

It's a good idea to have this info available for legitimate medical uses, but an implanted RFID doesn't do enough to strike a balance between privacy and usefulness.

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[Anonymous Coward]

ease the administrative burden for doctors

...because easing the administrative burden is always in the best interest of the patient? I can understand your point of view, but there are better solutions than implanting a chip inside.

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[grozzie2]

I cant help but wonder, if the medical system wasn't pumping people full of various magic cocktails of drugs, would you still have this problem. Never ceases to amaze me when I see the adds on tv, how many people see those adds, have no clue what they mean, but go to the doctors saying 'i need drug x', and when the doc says 'no you dont', they go find another one, who will give it to them.

Seems to me, you are actually misunderstanding your own problem. If you dont know the cocktail of drugs a specific patient is already recieving, then what are you doing prescribing stuff that is potentially dangerous for them? Shouldn't you be referring them back to folks that actually have the records, or possibly getting a copy of those records BEFORE you prescribe yet more drugs into the cocktail?

In the case you describe, prescribing potentially dangerous drugs to patients that you dont have adaquate records for, is a systemic problem. You are not the victim of that problem, you are part of the root cause.

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[Anonymous Coward]

As for the privacy issues - if you use a credit card to pay your way through life, you have already given up a lot of your privacy. Same goes for any other process that involves the registration of personal data (such as buying a car). Thorny issue, though.

That's part of the problem. Too many people don't give a shit about privacy issues. We already register far too much personal info as it is, and most of it is unnecessary. If I try to buy a battery at Radio Shack, they want all my personal info. WTF! Instead of refusing most people will just hand the info over.

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[xutopia]

In Canada where I live they're talking about a centralised database for all medical records. They're thinking about how they can do it all while keeping people from needing a chip inserted in their body or having privacy issues about it. A way this could work is by having only emergency personel allowed to access the info without a key (PIN number you would key in) and everyone accessing the records would be logged in the database too so it would be traceable. It isn't implemented yet but they're thinking about it. Why would we need a chip for such a thing? The law here says you should have your ID on you at all times and people with severe allergies wear a bracelet if they choose to.

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[Anonymous Coward]

CarrionBird (589738) : Martial law can be useful too. Doesn't make it a good idea though.

Well whether or not it is a good idea sort of depends upon the circumstances now doesn't it?

serutan (259622) : It's a matter of their choice, not your convenience

Yes and no. The doctor doesn't always have a choice when it comes to treating the patient.

Sure a doctor can say "Brittney I'm not comfortable making your boobies one more size" and probably not be faulted for it.

But suppose a doctor treating an accident victim or a stroke victim or anyone who is unable to supply important information about their medical condition for whatever reason, makes a bad treatment decision due to not having timely acces to a patient's medical history that results in serious complications or death?

Doesn't seem like a matter of convenience for the doctor to have rapid access to the patient's medical history now does it? Seems more like a necessity.

The doctor just can't up and say "I don't have the information I need to make a properly informed decision regaring treatment so I'm not going to treat the patient."

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[WrongByDefinition]

I would like to have this technology This doesn't make the argument any more valid than saying Guns should be legal because they protect some people. Administrative woes? Well, that's more than worth the slight possibility (dripping with sarcasm, there) that the government, let alone criminals, might misuse it.

If this is such a concern, get the medic-alert bracelet people to extend their program to include chips, and make wearable (and disabled-by-default) chips for the rest of us. If you can't control the technology from a personal standpoint, then it opens the door to Gattica and Logan's Run and solves nothing. Everybody agrees there are positive sides to some arguments, like gun control (or gun ownership) and legalizing drugs, but weighing the successes against all the negative impacts on society, as well as the realistic benefits of blanket policies, is what is important. Missing the point of what the government would do with the technology is the sort of 1D thinking that gets this stuff passed into law.

P.S. I hope you aren't the first doctor to accidentally kill some petty criminal with a hacked/stolen RFID that he uses to get free cell phone calls or prescription drugs... 'Gee, officer, his chip said he was AB-, and I just assumed that it was correct...'

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[magarity]

I encounter patients everey day, who have no clear recollection of their medical history
 
Probably safe to assume lithium.

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[Dhalka226]

Instead of storing this data in an implanted chip, why not encode this data on re-writable magnetic strip on a credit-card-type card (with no personally identifiable info) that you can keep in your wallet/purse/keychain etc?

Because if you lose your wallet/purse/keychain, or forget it at home, or it gets damaged, or whatever, you're fucked.

With the chip implant, you can't forget it at home when you take that short drive to the grocery store that you don't need to put your seatbelt on for.

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[Reverberant]

Well, presumably if you're taking "that short drive to the grocery store" you going to have your wallet, your purse, and/or your keychain with you. ;) Point taken, but I like I said, it's about the trade-off between convenience and privacy. With an external carrier, you're at least in control.

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[loyukfai]

I suppose most people are not doubting its medical benefits. But that it can be mis-used easily should be alarming.

Every big thing starts with small steps.

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't need an implant to get drug history information... there are solutions out there that will link the point of care provider to the benefit manager for info (drug history, formulary, eligibility, etc).

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[CarrionBird]

Perhaps, but there are other ways of going about this. If someone does have a history that emergency personnell need to know about, they could wear a chip or a medic-alert style breaclet like people alreay do. (all the verichips do is provide a uniqiue id code anyway, the real magic's in the database)

Not everyone has some condition that warrants tagging them internally, those that do can be offered the option of wearing or carring one.

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[SA Stevens]

As a medical doctor I encounter patients everey day, who have no clear recollection of their medical history or the medication that they use.

Implanting an RFID does NOTHING to solve this problem. The problem you describe requires a huge centralized database infrastructure containing medical records, which could be indexed to any conventional identifying method that already is in place.

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[2008]

You could use that to scam free prescription drugs, such as methadone, by re-writing it/stealing a junkie's card. Though you can do that with the present system anyway...

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[foniksonik]

huh... there's a service by a company called MediKeeper that provides online access to your full medical history. Each time you go in for a checkup or have a procedure done or get a new prescription you can a) update the record yourself or b) give the doctor access to your account to update it for you (he/she can only add a new record).

Instead of needing a chip implant or a magnetic card or some other complicated means to access up to date medical history, you just keep a dog tag or wrist band with your account info and primary provider phone number (that person has account access).

Voila... worldwide coverage without the need for an expensive chip reader.

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[istartedi]

As a medical doctor I encounter patients everey day, who have no clear recollection of their medical history or the medication that they use

As a medical patient I encounter doctors, who have no clear recollection of my medical history or medication that I use, despite the fact that they are the ones who treated me and prescribed the medications.

And no, this is not with a different doctor. The same doctor. Many doctors are woefully behind the times with computer tech, but nevermind that--most of them don't seem to do a very good job of transferring records when you change doctors. Either that, or they never look at the records that get sent over. I'm sure I have several medical histories from when I was younger that simply got tossed out because I stopped going to a particular doctor.

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to wonder about your compatance as doctor, let alone as a thinking human......

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[ricky-road-flats]

Why depend on the medical data being with the person? An implanted chip is unacceptable on privacy terms, and what happens when people get other chips that block the real one, or remove or replace the real one, to confuse the authorities? What about the next time there's a really good reason to put another chip in people, or add some more data to the one that's in? A card can be lost, or carried by another person in error or for a million other good reasons. Keep that useful medical data in a central (here in England it would be the NHS) place, and use all the normal methods of checking identity (contents of wallet, etc.). Much simpler than with easily-abused chip nonsense. Once again, RFID is NOT the answer to all life's problems. Leave it for Walmart tracking crates of nappies.

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[danila]

Yes, but this is a hypothetical slipper slope fallacy. What if a person forgets his wallet/purse/keychain or bracelet/dogtags? Guess what - we won't be any worse off than we are today, when almost no one is carrying these. BTW, I am sure that people with important medical conditions pay a tiny bit more attention to these matters.

But the point is - we should only be discussing those hypothetical risks only after we've already done something, not now. Why do you think nothing was done yet (on a large scale) to integrate medical histories, provide to doctors universal access to it using a patient ID or a magnetic card or a bar code or something? Why do certain groups insist on jumping straight to the implantable chips? It's very suspicious, don't you think so?

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[Dhalka226]

But the point is - we should only be discussing those hypothetical risks only after we've already done something, not now.

I don't support the implantable RFIDs and I have absolutely no plans on getting one, now or in the future. I was simply stating one value over a card-type system.

For me, the privacy implications would far outweigh any conveinience.

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[__aailob1448]

The chip would have to be writeable if it's to be used as a medical history. Medical histories are not static afterall. Otherwise, it will just be an improved version of those silver bracelets people allergic to certain substances wear (allergy to peniciline for example).

If the chip is writeable (and I don't think RFIDs are) then there is always the possibility of someone unauthorized writing on it and potentially causing havoc.

  "Tadaaa! you're no longer allergic to peniciline fucker! HAHAHAHA"

  "You need insulin. Lots of it :D"

  "You have a very bad heart. Guess nobody'll operate on you now. muhuhuwahaha"

These are but a few of the very harmful (and no doubt, sometimes deadly) things people could do to you if they break the code.

Re:Medical uses are realistic

[juan2074]

The powers-that-be used to think lobotomies were useful too.

what ever happened to

[Anonymous Coward]

A conservative goverment that leaves its people the hell alone?

I Am Not A Number, I'm A Free Man!

[blueZhift]

Obligatory Prisoner Quote:

"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

Re:I Am Not A Number, I'm A Free Man!

[deathy_epl ccs]

Yes, but he didn't say anything about being chipped... ;-)

Re:I Am Not A Number, I'm A Free Man!

[Alsee]

You are number 652272. I am number 515537.
Who is number 1?
CmdrTaco.

-

Re:I Am Not A Number, I'm A Free Man!

[mink]

I am the new number 266117.

Yeah...

[kc0re]

But does it run Linux? Could you imagine a Beowolf Cluster of Humans? Wow.

Re:Yeah...

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn Microsoft!

Re:Yeah...

[Ponzicar]

A Beowulf cluster? This is slashdot, most posters would be lucky to be involved with a dual processor.

Re:Yeah...

[TheoMurpse]

Could you imagine a Beowolf Cluster of Humans?

And just about 1100 years too late. If you added cloning to the mix, you could have a Beowulf cluster of Beowulfs!

This is true

[Kainaw]

Procter said 'virtually everyone could benefit from having a chip inserted.'

Virtually everyone has an allergy of some sort, a medical problem of some sort, or a prescribed medication of some sort. If everyone who ever visited a hospital had a chip implanted with their medical data on it, there is a clear benefit. Assuming the /. crowd is mostly computer geeks, think of it as having the option of fixing a computer with a full history of what has been done to it or fixing a computer with no knowledge of who has used it or what has been installed on it. But, this is the "it is just so damn cool to claim everything the government (or a guy who used to be in the government) says" slashdot. So, there will certainly be plenty of "nobody benefits from this" posts.

I just had this argument with a coworker yesterday. He said, "I don't believe anything the government says." I said, "You're an idiot." He replied, "Oh, you trust everything the government says!?" I replied, "No. It is not a matter of believing. It is a matter of trust. I do not blindly trust everything the government says, but I do believe some things as true, some as partially true, and other things as false. Being able to filter information as such is a sign of intelligence. Claiming everything the government says is false is a sign of ignorance." He replied, "That's what I meant. You misunderstood me."

Re:This is true

[spisska]

think of it as having the option of fixing a computer with a full history of what has been done to it or fixing a computer with no knowledge of who has used it or what has been installed on it.

Yes, but the fix is the same in both cases.

Re:This is true

[Anonymous Coward]

The argument that people are too stupid to remember pertinant details of their health does not fly. You can extend that argument infinitely to cover all personal information, on the grounds of convenience or ease. Just TAKE AN INTEREST IN YOUR HEALTH!

Hell why don't I just drive to the corner store, or my neighbors house down the block, it seems more convenient.

basically sometimes Convenience != Benefit

I can see this potentially being useful for alzheimers patients and imbiciles, but otherwise this is a 'convenient' excuse to track peoples activities.

Re:This is true

[Anonymous Coward]

"Assuming the /. crowd is mostly computer geeks, think of it as having the option of fixing a computer with a full history of what has been done to it or fixing a computer with no knowledge of who has used it or what has been installed on it."

Who is going to maintain the database?

Re:This is true

[Anonymous Coward]

Assuming the /. crowd is mostly computer geeks, think of it as having the option of fixing a computer with a full history of what has been done to it or fixing a computer with no knowledge of who has used it or what has been installed on it.

Hey, thanks for explaining that in a way all us computer geeks can understand. Could you be more fucking condescending?

Anyway, your analogy is flawed. Humans != computers. In your example of "fixing computers", no one is concerned about "computer rights" or "the computer's best interests".

The real problem is that once the RFID chip is installed, who is to say that it will continue to be used only for medical purposes?

When the Social Security Number (SIN in Canada) was introduced in the United States, its use was supposed to be limited to the administration of the social security program. Now it is a de facto unique identifier for every citizen. Try getting a job, opening a bank account or applying for credit without a Social Security Number.

Exciting new opportunity!

[Laptop Dancer]

It's actually an intriguing possibility, because it would enable a new range of PRM (Personal Rights Management) services for seamless integration with Microsoft Vista.

Re:Nah, just for immigrants.

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet the native natives are kicking themselves for not inventing this in the 1500s.

Re:Nah, just for immigrants.

[Anonymous Coward]

Witty retort, but there's not much comparison between the handful of domestic nutjobs and the veritable flood of unknown persons (including a wide variety of felons and violent gang members) crossing in from Mexico each day.

Yes, yes, I know, they all just come here to work. Right. Which is why our prisons are overflowing with hardworking family men who happen to be illegals.

In the NEWS

[shareme]

In the NEWS ... Murder increasing by leap s and bounds as gangs figue out you can make money by stealing the new identity chip implanted in all US citizens.. Some gangs not even using a reader to check whether person ahs a chip.. beofre they shoot..

Re:In the NEWS

[TripMaster Monkey]

Why is murder necessary, when the chip can be extracted with a penknife?

Re:In the NEWS

[way2trivial]

So the vic can't complain and get the chip cancelled-- you gotta dump the body for the duration of the event you needed the chip for.

Re:In the NEWS

[arosas]

replace chip with wallet/purse, and penknife with force...

The mark of the beast...

[scharkalvin]

I'm surprised that bible thumpers haven't called in about the reference to the beast on this one.
Something along the lines of "no one shall be able to enter any commerce without the mark of the beast on his hand or forehead".

Re:The mark of the beast...

[Wyatt Earp]

Oh, the Bible thumpers have been going on and on and on about this crap and bar-codes and the EU and everything else.

Your moon-bat Bible thumpers like Jack Van-Impe carry on about this all the time. No one consults them because they are obscure and mad as hatters.

"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[mcc]

Bottom line: Sure, absolutely: be vigilant. But there will never be compulsory "implants" that will be required for all.

Well, the company that makes them is lobbying to move things in the direction of making them compulsory for all. They may not ever succeed at this. But does that make it okay that they're trying?

Yes, the practice of ex-political officials entering industry and using their contacts for lobbying purposes is common. However just because it is a common thing does not make it a good thing.

At any rate, you are probably right that these things won't ever become mandatory-- in the United States. But there are lots of other places in the world. The government of China, for example, already has national "citizen identification" cards, and already has a precedent of compulsory medical care (for example abortions). Do you think it would be the least bit unusual if this kind of chipping became mandatory there? Because I don't.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[daveschroeder]

Well, the company that makes them is lobbying to move things in the direction of making them compulsory for all. They may not ever succeed at this. But does that make it okay that they're trying?

I don't have any problem with a company making a product attempting to promote it. Viewed in a vacuum, as I said, these products, like many others, could have positive applications. That they would try to promote the product in such a fashion as it would be used as widely as possible comes as no surprise to me.

If we expand the discussion to politics, civil liberties, and so on, I certainly can see how people who be disturbed by any such proposal, however initially benign it might be. But in a "free" country, as some who oppose this might be quick to sarcastically point out, as the submitter did, isn't a business free to make and promote products?

Yes, the practice of ex-political officials entering industry and using their contacts for lobbying purposes is common. However just because it is a common thing does not make it a good thing.

Here we can perhaps agree. But it's only natural, and frankly, to me anyway, expected, for very skilled and effective managers and leaders to be picked up from government by industry and vice versa.

At any rate, you are probably right that these things won't ever become mandatory-- in the United States. But there are lots of other places in the world. The government of China, for example, already has national "citizen identification" cards, and already has a precedent of compulsory medical care (for example abortions). Do you think it would be the least bit unusual if this kind of chipping became mandatory there? Because I don't.

And once again, companies involving themselves in the affairs of governments with questionable regimes (cf. US companies in Nazi Germany) is an issue much larger than what we're discussing here. If we agree that, say, China doing this with all of its citizens is a bad idea, what do we do? How do we respond? Make it against the law to make implantable RFID chips? Of course, this would only apply in the jurisdiction of the US. Oops, there's a business lost, too. Granted, that's kind of an oversimplified fringe example, but really, what would you propose we do?

I'd personally rather use the extremely imperfect system of democracy we've built to hopefully elect leaders that will make halfway decent decisions - keep in mind that non-ignorant, thinking conservatives (and no, not bible-thumping fundie ones, but honest to God reasonable conservatives - and yes, they do exist) are just as sure their philosophies on government, economics, etc., are just as likely to bring happiness to the widest amount of people as the liberals and progressives are of their policy. (Of course, if you're someone who believes that all US politicians are already bought and paid for, and cynically think that the entire government is a behemoth out to get you and we've already lost all of our freedom, then we're probably speaking on a slightly different wavelength here.)

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[Knome_fan]

"Yes, the practice of ex-political officials entering industry and using their contacts for lobbying purposes is common. However just because it is a common thing does not make it a good thing.

Here we can perhaps agree. But it's only natural, and frankly, to me anyway, expected, for very skilled and effective managers and leaders to be picked up from government by industry and vice versa."

I think the parent didn't try to make the point that it's wrong for them to enter the industry because they are experts, but that it's questionable to say the least if they enter the industry to help lobbying efforts with their old political contacts.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[ninjalex]

Well, the company that makes them is lobbying to move things in the direction of making them compulsory for all. They may not ever succeed at this. But does that make it okay that they're trying?

I don't have any problem with a company making a product attempting to promote it. Viewed in a vacuum, as I said, these products, like many others, could have positive applications. That they would try to promote the product in such a fashion as it would be used as widely as possible comes as no surprise to me.

That's bullshit. Lobbying the government to force people to use their product is not promotion of said product. It's racketeering.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[grozzie2]

The government of China, for example, already has national "citizen identification" cards,

Yah, but on this side of the pond they are called 'social security card', so that makes them completely different, and 'good' because a 'citizen identification' card is 'bad'.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[sfjoe]

At any rate, you are probably right that these things won't ever become mandatory-- in the United States.

Don't bet on it. Of course the first people to be tagged won't be Republicans. It will start with convicted felons. Then it will be required for other types of disenfranchised people, such as retarded citizens, "for their own good". Then it will be required for airline travel "for our own safety". Then there will be a knock on the door....

You never realize you're on the slippery slope until you've stepped on it.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[HardCase]

racketeering

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[NitsujTPU]

mcc said:
Well, the company that makes them is lobbying to move things in the direction of making them compulsory for all. They may not ever succeed at this. But does that make it okay that they're trying?

To which you replied:
I don't have any problem with a company making a product attempting to promote it. Viewed in a vacuum, as I said, these products, like many others, could have positive applications. That they would try to promote the product in such a fashion as it would be used as widely as possible comes as no surprise to me.

Which implies that you don't understand the difference between appropriate forms of promotion, and forcing the masses into using your product.

If Coca-Cola make it mandatory to drink Coke, and we would be imprisoned for refusing to drink Coke, then that would be a violation of our civil liberties, don't you think?

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[hazem]

but that it's questionable to say the least if they enter the industry to help lobbying efforts with their old political contacts.

That's not the worst. It's even worse when they do things to benefit their future employer while they are still a government official.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh? Of course it will be mandatory in US first. Well, maybe not mandatory, just as driver's licence is not mandatory. The rest of the world will follow. The countries that have actually had a totalitarian regime will be among the last.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[Uber Banker]

The two points you cited were not mutually exclusive, therefore there is no logical inconsistency. One can example and counter example about Coca Cola all one likes, but they do not make a generality.

What I believe daveschroeder (516195) meant was that companies trying their best to do their best is not a bad thing, in the same way a student at university trying their best is a good thing (best defined on many levels depending on subject/verb/object). Would we want companies not to do their best, and hence screw all of our savings plans and pensions (no, it is not 'them and us'); everyone doing their best increases productivity, technological progress, and national income.

There is something that exists that is called Government. Its role, in a capitalist country, is to allow free enterprise to thrive under an environment where the rule of law is layed down. Its role, in a democratic country, is to provide an environment its population, on majority, think is best for them (this best may not be best for a subset of society, or even as it turns out for those who choose them, but adults vote for a government and adults can make mistakes). The interaction effect, which I think gets a lot of /.ers gripe, is that more money can influence opinion (via media control, heuristic bias, etc), hence result in a form of path determinance, ironically non-democratic (if looking from a blank sheet).

The key, IMHO, is not to get upset with specific examples, but to rally against the concept as a generality, and to minimalise this interaction effect which may be disliked; special interest groups, as effective they are in their subset of interest, actually perpetuate and enforce this interaction.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[SA Stevens]

If Coca-Cola make it mandatory to drink Coke, and we would be imprisoned for refusing to drink Coke, then that would be a violation of our civil liberties, don't you think?

Your comment implies that you don't understand the difference between advocacy and mandatory government edicts.

Coca-Cola can campaign all they want to make it mandatory to drink their beverages. It's not gonna happen. We can frown on them for advocating it if we so choose.

It's a bit ridiculous to sputter with fury at the possibility, though. The kind of thing only fundraisers for Organizations Founded To Protect Our Rights (tm) benefit from.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[demachina]

"However just because it is a common thing does not make it a good thing."

Well its a "good thing" for ex politicians and ex generals. Its a "good thing" for the companies that hire them. If you outlawed it the number of people willing to enter government service would plummet. The actual pay checks for government service aren't the greatest by private industry standards. Aside from a few idealists, and a larger number of people who are already rich, most people enter public service with the intent of helping out their friends while in office and cashing in on their knowledge and connections as soon as they retire from public service. Its a well known fact that the second term for two term Presidents is often rocky. A key reason is many of the President's best people leave at the end of the first term so they can cash in on their power and connections while their friends are still in power in the second term. Tommy Thompson is just a classic example of this.

"At any rate, you are probably right that these things won't ever become mandatory-- in the United States."

You probably said that about National ID cards ... and you were wrong. They were for all practical purposes instituted in the intelligence "reform" bill in December 2004. This bill was 3000 pages long, most who voted for it hadn't read it and it passed 89-2 in the Senate and 336-75 in the house. In many respects it was more dangerous to civil liberties than the Patriot act and it was passed with 99+% of the American public completely oblivious to its implications.

All in all I think it would be GREAT if the Republicans passed a bill mandating chipping everyone. It would drive home to more people how much of a police state they are really living in today. Eventually you might create enough critical mass to mobilize Americans to take their government back. Its not likely but you never now what might be the trigger to wake people out of their slumber.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[CrowScape]

Well, the company that makes them is lobbying to move things in the direction of making them compulsory for all.

Now, I'm sorry, but I read the posted article and I didn't see the word "compulsory" in there, nor any of its synonyms. I see an article that says a whole lot of nothing while doing its best to use language to make it seem like something nefarious, but I would think that if the plan was going to be compulsory, the article sure as hell would have come out and plainly said it one or two or fifty times (my money is on the fifty). Is there another article out there that does come out and say it? Even better, is there an actual link to the language being proposed?

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[milktoastman]

Oh Republicans, Republicans. Let's see...I don't think the previous Democratic administration was too friendly to privacy or individual freedom. Who pushed for the Clipper Chip?

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[HiThere]

You are defintely right. The Democrats are more careful about their public image, and some of them actually appear to want to help people, but you sure can't say that for the party as a whole.

Generally the parties are for those things that increase the power of the political parties, and the one with the most leverage is the one currently holding power. ... But when they change shifts, don't expect any general improvement, merely a change of focus.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[Brandybuck]

Nice fantasy there. Any historical evidence to back up your scaremongering? I know it's in vogue to cast Republicans as the Ultimate Evil, but when writing a science fiction script, remember that suspension of disbelief will only get you so far...

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[DigiShaman]

You know of the Social Security number right? Now, try getting a loan from a bank, getting a new car, house, cable/teleco service, water, electricity....etc.

Fact is. You SSN *IS* your identifier. It's your second name in numerical format now. ...of course, it was explicitly stated that it was not be used as such when SSN was first introduced. But....

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[symbolic]

Yes, the practice of ex-political officials entering industry and using their contacts for lobbying purposes is common. However just because it is a common thing does not make it a good thing.

So true. I wonder how many people know about Mr. Donald Rumsfeld's connection with the approval of something for public consumption that was once proposed as an agent for chemical warfare. Check here for an explanation.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[danila]

At any rate, you are probably right that these things won't ever become mandatory-- in the United States.

Just like biometric pasports, right? I'd say that unless some radical (should I say revolutionary) changes happen in the US there is no way these things won't become mandatory. As soon as the technology is sufficiently mature (somewhere between 2005 and 2010) it will be gradually forced upon the citizenry. Yes, it may go the SSN way, without explicitly requiring everyone to carry one of those, but eventually more and more people will be forced to carry those.

It's simple. First you make all sex offenders (who are all dangerous and scary pedophiles) to get one. Then all felons. Then all pirates and copyright violators. Then all foreign tourists (the chips are sufficiently small, temporary and the injection is painless and quick). Then all criminal suspects, then all government employees... At that stage corporations are likely to have already forced everyone else to get a chip as well. It's a matter of perception. So far there is no irrational public outcry over this, so when the time comes the opposition will be weak.

I think it's time to start spreading some FUD. For example, "by getting a chip implant you are 1000 times as likely to get AIDS", "terrorists can make them explode", "child pornographers can download child pornography on them", "they have those in communist China". If we could engineer some good FUD memes out of these and [im]plant them well, we may stand a chance.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[bwalling]

You never realize you're on the slippery slope until you've stepped on it.

Well, technically, you weren't on it until you stepped on it.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[Brandybuck]

If you're going to pay taxes on it, you'll need your social security number. But there are still a thousand ways to get around it. Forget your banks and you loans, you'll need it there to set up an account.

But for a car? Easy! Use cash! It may not be as convenient, but if you don't want to use your social security number, isn't the inconvenience worth your liberty?

Cable? I don't have it. I do have a couple of video rental cards and none of them required a SSN. My DSL account didn't require it either. Telco? Didn't have to submit it. Electricity? Ditto.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[myowntrueself]

From what I can see, as a non-American, the Democrats and Republicans form a 'good cop, bad cop' team and are essentially on the same side.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[Anonymous Coward]

Be wary, slashdot posters! Sometimes that slippery slope is actually a logical fallacy!

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[scottv67]

I knew a guy a while back who liked to live "outside the system" like you do. I'm not saying that it's something I favor but I think someday it will be hard to do *anything* if you don't have an "electronic history".

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[NitsujTPU]

The quote said compulsory.

Lets pick apart this word.

Main Entry: compulsory
Pronunciation: k&m-'p&ls-rE, -'p&l-s&-
Function: adjective
1 : MANDATORY, ENFORCED
2 : COERCIVE, COMPELLING
(source: Webster.com)


Looking at the first definition, one could see that the company, as described in mcc's quote, would be forcing us to get one of these chips.

So, the Verichip is merely advocating forcing us to wear these chips. That isn't a company that is merely trying to push a product.

So, to rephrase the question, if Verichip makes it mandatory to get implanted with RFID, and you would be imprisoned for not getting an RFID implant, that would be a violation of our civil liberties, don't you think?

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[NitsujTPU]

Please see:
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=158246&cid =13260122

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[nastro]

"Of course the first people to be tagged won't be Republicans."

As stated in the header, Tommy Thompson (former Gov. of Wisconsin and Republican) already has the chip. Poor choice of words.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[nastro]

"Of course the first people to be tagged won't be Republicans."

Tommy Thompson (R-Wis) already has the chip. Either you are uninformed, or chose your words poorly. In all honesty, though, what is the point of this with medalert bracelets and the like?

Is there some sort of gruesome novely to having this embedded in the skin?

Yeeech.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[ninjalex]

I think it does. See entry 1 from dictionary.com:

Main Entry: racketeering
Pronunciation: "ra-k&-'tir-i[ng]
Function: noun
1 : the extortion of money or advantage by threat or force
2 : a pattern of illegal activity (as extortion and murder) that is carried out in furtherance of an enterprise (as a criminal syndicate) which is owned or controlled by those engaged in such activity --see also Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act in the IMPORTANT LAWS section --compare ORGANIZED CRIME

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[Uber Banker]

You seem to be trying to make a totally different point than the one you originally picked up. Please see conversation, the exchange of thoughts and ideas.

Writing something factually correct is one thing, construing it as a counter example to another point with no direct logical relationship between the two does not a valid argument make. Rather, it stinks of ego-sticking your own opinion to others', much like the one who tries to shout loudest in a crowd believes that because they shout loudest they are most correct.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[NitsujTPU]

That is absolutely not true.

This is the clip from the post as it originally appeared

Well, the company that makes them is lobbying to move things in the direction of making them compulsory for all. They may not ever succeed at this. But does that make it okay that they're trying?

I don't have any problem with a company making a product attempting to promote it. Viewed in a vacuum, as I said, these products, like many others, could have positive applications. That they would try to promote the product in such a fashion as it would be used as widely as possible comes as no surprise to me.

mcc was clearly pointing out that the company was lobbying to force all Americans to use this device, daveschroeder was obviously saying that this is fine, because it's a marketting tactic.

Your reply to all of this was that it's fine for companies to do this, and that the government should, at the end of the day prevent it.

That said, my answer to all of this is that that sort of conduct, on the behalf of companies, is at best immoral.

How am I breaking up the conversation anyway? I'm sticking to my orignal premise, that this is not a valid business tactic, and one that should not be humored. I've also allowed you to voice your opinion, and not said anything about you being barred from expressing it. I do think that you're incorrect... perhaps you can convince me otherwise.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[Anonymous Coward]

Well... The Dems haven't duped us into a bullshit war since 1964. And the last few wars they got us into (Bosnia, Kosovo) went pretty well. Contrast this with the shitfest that is presently Iraq. Do you think we'd be in Iraq right now if Al Gore were president? Hell no.

Yes, the Dems gave old George a rubber stamp with which to go into Iraq. But Bush came up with the idea and implemented it in a way that a dem preznit wouldn't have. (Al Gore, by the way, was vehemently against going to Iraq in 2002, unlike most dems at the time.)

Also, the GOP is more likely to give handouts to military contractors specifically. I'm talking about the trend that started with Reagan and continues with Bush. The reason the GOP has such a reputation for "strong military" is because they write big fat checks to weapons makers, and dems don't. Also, in the last few years, the GOP congress has really set new records for pork, which make the Dems look like fiscal conseratives.

I object to the meme that dems and reps are "the same side." Yes it is true to a large extent. But there are very significant differences in where your money goes with each, and who cares about what.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[HardCase]

So I was right. How 'bout that!

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of places get "suspicious" if you deal with large amounts of cash. Although, I've witnessed a lot of illegal immigrants dealing in large amounts of cash with no problems.

I had to give a social security number to get a driver's license. Right now I guess this can vary from state to state, but starting in 2008 it will be federally mandated by the Real ID Act, which was snuck into an Iraq spending bill last spring when no one was watching.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[chicago_bulls]

"Don't bet on it. Of course the first people to be tagged won't be Republicans. It will start with convicted felons. Then it will be required for other types of disenfranchised people, such as retarded citizens, "for their own good". Then it will be required for airline travel "for our own safety". Then there will be a knock on the door....

You never realize you're on the slippery slope until you've stepped on it."

you've got the right idea, but i think that the real backdoor that would work would be child molesters. i mean that would be a way to get people on board with little dissent. how many congressmen would stand up and say "No, we shouldn't track that child molester." i don't think very many would. i certainly doubt if the people on tv news would even protest.
and before you know it, we'd all be either criminals or slaves.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[Brandybuck]

You don't have to live completely out of the system. If you pay taxes, you can't, and will need your social security number for your bank. But you *CAN* get away without using it for most other things.

The quickest way to lose is to roll over and give up. The quickest way to be a loser is to roll over and give up everytime you encounter a pessimistic post on Slashdot.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[McPierce]

You SSN *IS* your identifier. It's your second name in numerical format now.

No, it's not. My children do not have any matching sequences of numbers compared to either themselves or to mine. So, would you mind citing a source for your claim?

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[smchris]

And sometimes societies start with the gypsies and homosexuals before getting to the Jews. Illogical behavior? Yes, darn them!

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[DigiShaman]

So, would you mind citing a source for your claim?

Ya sure. It's called living in freaken America your whole life.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[McPierce]

Ya sure. It's called living in freaken America your whole life.

So, IOW, you have no support for your claim. As I already pointed out, my children (which have the same second name as me) do not have any sequence of their SSN that matches mine or each other's, which shows your claim to be wrong.

"The Social Security number is a nine-digit number in the format "NNN-NN-NNNN." The number is divided into three parts...The first three digits are the area number....The middle two digits are the group number....The last four digits are serial numbers. They represent a straight numerical sequence of digits from 0001-9999 within the group. (Wikipedia search 'Social Security Number')

Notice there's absolutely nothing about any part of your name being encoded in your SSN.

Now, perhaps you can explain how "living in freaken American your whole life" makes you an authority on how SSNs are created? Because right now your statement is so much nonsense...

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[DigiShaman]

Notice there's absolutely nothing about any part of your name being encoded in your SSN

You see, that's your problem for not reading correctly. I said "It's your second name in numerical format now..." I never said anything about encoding. What I DID state was that your second name in American society is your SSN. Hence, a name in numerical format.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[McPierce]

You see, that's your problem for not reading correctly. I said "It's your second name in numerical format now..." I never said anything about encoding. What I DID state was that your second name in American society is your SSN. Hence, a name in numerical format.

Me not reading correctly? No. You not speaking clearly? Yep, quite obviously.

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I think you interpreted his text poorly. By your logic, the second name would be most peoples middle name, which would not carry to the childern anyway, so could not be imbedded in a ssn. (unlike the last name, whitch could)

And you can't accuse him of not "speaking clearly", he was obviously writing! lol

He obviously meant the government is giving a name in addition to the Birth Name most people are given. (a second name)

Lighten up

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[McPierce]

He obviously meant

"...it's obvious..." is a fallacy of thinking. It wasn't obvious, and I stated as much in my first response, which he apparently didn't bother to read himself. So, if it's a problem of reading comprehension then it's a mutual problem. And I'm light. I could give a fiddler's fart about the whole thing...

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[milktoastman]

I guess, with our 20/20 hindsight, we can say that bush admin dropped the ball preventing 9/11...but they responded actively...yes, they held out on dept. of homeland sec. for awhile, but all in all, they responded. Not perfectly, you say? Considerably better than Clinton. Token missile strikes that did nothing. I'm afraid Gore might have continued the trend. I sympathize, though. Look how the Left went after Bush for his promise of retaliation in Afganistan. It's a scary thing...thinking of committing to such historical action. Now, you may wonder why I went into issues unrelated to Iraq. Am I trying to pull a Hannity and argue about a sound, but unrelated, point to throw off attention from the real issues? No. Basically, all I'm saying, maybe the Dems have terrible intrinsic faults as well. Maybe their total sideline passivity would be as bad in the long run as that costly and irresponsible extra battle Bush put on top of the "war on terror."

Re:"MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE"

[Anonymous Coward]

Bush did a shitty job in Afghanistan. We went in there almost a month after 9/11. We stalled for a month. We gave Al Qaeda a month to prepare themselves, to flee, et cetera. When we got there, we did a half assed job, undercommitting troops and paying Afghans (some of whom were tied to Al Qaeda) to do the fighting for us. Then we declared victory and reduced our troop size, despite 90% of Al Qaeda and Taliban escaping.

When Clinton tried what you called "token military strikes" in 1998, the press and Republican legislators accused him of trying to distract from Monica. That's why there weren't any more. Before that, Clinton was trying to get the CIA to kill bin Laden with an armed version of the Predator manless spy jet, but they wouldn't do it. It's been mentioned in book after book that Clinton was obsessed with Al Qaeda but the military, CIA, and FBI didn't want to listen to him.

For people who say Clinton didn't do much on terror... Read "Against All Enemies" by Richard Clarke. It's quite interesting. Did you know Clinton was planning to invade Iran after the Khobar Towers incident, but decided against it because it would have too many consequences, insurgencies and what not? I wish Bush had thought like that about Iraq.

Now, if you say Clarke had ulterior motives in writing that book. That's GOP smear. Read the book. It contains stuff you just can't make up.

Dont do it

[Timesprout]

The English have been implanting chips in themselves for years and all it has done is made them fatter and depleted the oceans reserves of cod.

Re:Dont do it

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey...American's haven't shied away from chips either. How 'bout this for their new slogan:

"RFID tracking chips. Bet you can't implant just one!"

only when hell freezer over

[c-reus]

there's no way I'm putting a chip in me so that THEY would always have accurate data where I am and what I do.

Well, yes, they track us all anyway but this would make it much much easier.

So, sorry buds, I'm not into that stuff.

Re:only when hell freezer over

[sirra462]

Yeah, just carry it in your pocket and make phone calls with it instead.

Re:Nah, just for immigrants.

[fishbowl]

>You mean, like Tim McVeigh?

And how would having a dog tag have altered McVeigh's behavior? My dog has a Verichip. The thing is, the chip itself is nothing but a serial number. In order for it to be meaningful, it must be registered with one of several competing database vendors, which means a vet or animal control agency must be looking where your pet is registered. The chip itself doesn't contain any information about the animal, just a PK into some database, one that if you don't pay a monthly fee, it gets erased, so your pet just has a meaningless microchip in his neck.

It's happening...

[whitesaint]

There's been alot of messages from God regarding that the chip implants are "the mark of the beast" spoke of in Revelations. We are blind and do not see it but what was spoke of in Revelations is coming true right before our eyes. God says their going to try to talk us into getting a chip implant, and make it seem like it's for the good of everybody, but they want to control us further and it will go so far as into a one world order...Anybody who gets a chip implant will be going to hell... Here is just one of many messages from God about how to love...http://www.sofc.org/APOSTLEBK/am_ch17.htm>. .i cant find the messages about the third world war, the chip implants, and the prophecy of many things such as tidal waves the death of the pope and how the new pope would be the anti-pope...but its out there...from sister louise tomkiel i believe.... Time is running out our only duty now is to flee the U.S. or find the santuaries where we dont have to get the chip implanted to escape the US Government

get a verichip, go to hell

[couch_warrior]

In the book if Revelations, at the end of the Bible, it foretells the coming of a totalitarian world leader, known as the antichrist (the beast). This leader will force everyone to renounce belief in any god but himself, and to seal the deal, you will be required to have the "mark" or "number" of the beast implanted in your forehead or hand. As an enforcement measure, without this "mark" you will not be able to buy or sell anything. Revelations also says that anyone who takes the mark will burn in hell. SO welcome to armageddon folks, get a veridhip and go to hell.

Re:get a verichip, go to hell

[Anonymous Coward]

Almost, but the 'beast' in question isn't a person. Due to significant translational differences, it could be interpreted that the 'beast' is a system - capitalism / global commerce / the economy. In order to seal your belief in this system above and beyond God, the mark of the beast is given.

The bible (as translated) is pretty hot on anthropomorphizing God and lots of other things, but God is not a person, and neither is the 'beast.'

To paraphrase: You can only serve God OR money. You cannot serve them both. The mark of the beast symbolises the victory of a monetary society over a moral one.

As we see today, rights to good, healthy food, medication, clean air, a sustainable environment are all being sacrificed at the altar of economic expediency.

Ultimately, our morality will be defined by the expense of any particular action, not by its consequences. Already there are kids out there who have value systems entirely based around money, aquisition and consumer-led need. These kids will grow up to be next leaders of our world, and they are exponentially more screwed up, selfish and greedy than the post-war generation fuckups.

God is dead and we're all going to hell.

Re:get a verichip, go to hell

[deathy_epl ccs]

Your statement isn't quite what I'd call accurate... There was nothing in there about him proclaiming himself a god, but there WAS something in there about folks that claim to be good followers believing in this leader - that he would snow the population he is in actuality opposed to. Still, the thing is so open to interpretation that I know for damn sure I could be wrong.

Re:get a verichip, go to hell

[couch_warrior]

Try Rev 13:12 to 13:15, by inference

Er!

[CaptainZapp]

after implanting a chip into himself, is going to submit a proposal within the next 50 days to promote it for everyone in the USA.

After wanking myself and jerking off yesterday, I submit a proposal now to promote it for everyone in the USA.

What a creep...

Re:Er!

[Anonymous Coward]

You are going to jerk off everyone in the USA? Man, better have good carpal tunnel insurance! And a set of rubber gloves...

Embarrasment

[Anonymous Coward]

If you think that wearing cheesehats and hunting gear at Packer games is an embarrasing image for Wisconsin, you have never actually listened to Thompson, (Wisconsin's 4 time govenor) speak.

Big ass, beer drinking cheeseheads in their hunting gear is a minor embarrassment compared to having elected Thompson govenor four times.

He apparently has incredible political skills but can barely put a complete thought together.

Cookies?

[venril]

Granted, these will certainly not store anything like cookies, but I gaurantee that if they become used, Akamai or Doubleclick or , heh, BodyCount (tm) will collect brick-and-mortar visit data, at first, and sell it. Easy to drop scanners at pedestrian choke points.

Which of these companies will be a 3-letter agency shell company? Or will they just give the collection companies an offer they can't refuse? Not right away, but inevitable if implimented laws offering protections or no.

Perhaps those who would impliment such a system would do it for the best of intentions, but every tool with the potential for abuse by the governament has been abused by the government eventually. Tools like those described in the article are a fascists wet dream and we accept them at our peril.

What's the difference between this and biokeys?

[HangingChad]

It would still be possible to spoof an RFID chip. Really this is nothing more than an implantable ID card. One that potential terrorists could, eventually, reverse engineer. With biokeys like fingerprints or retna scans it's much harder to fake, always on you and takes a willing effort by the person being identified.

The potential for abuse exists in either arena. Real progress won't happen until we stop trying to find an easy solution for security issues. Technology will only provide a false sense of security, we'll go back to sleep and be jarred awake by another 9-11 style attack.

In some ways the Israelis are way ahead of us in terms of their security paradigm. They're not dependent on gadget solutions. Certainly technology is part of the solution and can be a real help, but TSA's grand database ideas will never work right. RFID chips certainly won't do it, fingerprinting visitors is an insulting waste of effort and anything totally dependent on technology is doomed to failure.

As depressing as it sounds, it's people that have to be at the core of any security system. People at every level of the transportation process. Bag handlers, reservation clerks, fellow passengers, security screeners, gate crews, parking attendants...everyone. And when it comes to security in general, until we stop thinking about security as something that's up to the government or the cops, or the TSA we're never going to be any safer than we were before 9-11.

Re:What's the difference between this and biokeys?

[Anonymous Coward]

The only downside to the Israeli security paradigm is the rather fatal effects of false positives for the individuals in question. Not that I can really complain, given the UK's recent problems...

Re:What's the difference between this and biokeys?

[Anonymous Coward]

In some ways the Israelis are way ahead of us in terms of their security paradigm...

what are you refering to? Selective murders of people with helicopters/missils? or the contruction of the wall dividing palestina? Perhaps possesing nuclear, biological and chemical weapons and deniyng it? Sure the jewish are more advanced, like the germans during ww2.

Found the messages from God

[whitesaint]

http://users.skynet.be/courlisius/via_microchip_co mplete_control.html http://users.skynet.be/courlisius/reject.html http://users.skynet.be/courlisius/seize_this_minut e.html http://users.skynet.be/courlisius/martial_law_is_i mminent.html

Worst Abuse of All

[dthx1138]

Imagine it: somebody figures out a way to let past sexual partners 'rate' your performance.

Women would be walking around bars with scanners, knowing never to initiate conversation, just because of that one time last january when you *accidentally* crapped yourself, janet.

Sorry, nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, no chip going in me. Not happening.

Obligitory IBM slam.

[foolish_to_be_here]

IBM has been implanting chips inside their managements heads for years. They would be re-flashed when ever a reorg took place (every two years).

How Ironic

[DesScorp]

Slashdot and religious conservatives...agreeing on something.

RC's (some of them, anyway) think a chip like this might be the "mark of the beast"; if you don't accept it, you wont be able to work, eat, or travel. Amazing that I'm seeing so many similar predictions for slashdotters here...

Chips vulnerable to EMP?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are these chips vulnerable to EMP weapons?

What about MRI machines? Will we fortfeit the use of MRI machines because it'll screw up our identity (chip) ?

Re:Chips vulnerable to EMP?

[sexybomber]

More than screw it up, if the chip has any metal whatsoever in it, an MRI machine will rip that f***er out of your body.

Same reason you can't have an MRI if you have a pacemaker, because when they fire it up, the pacemaker will leap out of your chest, not unlike the creatures from the Alien movies.

I can see it now...

[lendude]

...it'll be called "The Freedom Chip".

Re:I can see it now...

[Anonymous Coward]

Free to go anywhere you want with the Freedom chip.

You'll not be FREE without it!

Re:I can see it now...

[Dunbal]

not the FRE eDOM chip?

Federal Regulation of Entitlements, electronic Domination chip?

Re:I can see it now...

[amigabill]

> ...it'll be called "The Freedom Chip".

Well yea, because calling them "French Chips" would just be silly.

Re:I can see it now...

[Alsee]

The Freedom Chip

That is the UK version. Everyone knows that in the United States 'chips' are called 'fries'.

UK Freedom CHIP:
Certified Human Independance Passport
Communication Hand Information Platform
Citizen Harmony ImPlant
Common Herd Instinct Peasantry
Conspiracy Hoax Inflaming Paranoids
Control Halter Implementing Passification
Catastrophe Horsemen Invocation Pentacle

US Freedom FRIES:
Friendy Radio Identity Empowerment Service
Federal Response Implementing Enhanced Safety
Fully Realworld Integrated Echelon Surveillance
Fries Recursive Initialism Spelling Error
Facist Rights Infringement & Extermination System
Fuehreh Registration Injection Enforced Security
Forehead/Righthand Inscription Evoking Satan

-

Re:Nah, just for immigrants.

[TechyImmigrant]

Witty retort, but there's not much comparison between the handful of domestic nutjobs and the veritable flood of unknown persons (including a wide variety of felons and violent gang members) crossing in from Mexico each day.

Yes, yes, I know, they all just come here to work. Right. Which is why our prisons are overflowing with hardworking family men who happen to be illegals.

uh, so you're going to tag all the illegals? I'm sure that'll work real well.

All together, now !

[Anonymous Coward]

Find a prosperous and/or unindited Citizen, then:

1. Scan Citizen's chip
2. Clone Citizen's chip
3. Remove own chip and replace with cloned chip
4. Profit!

Re:All together, now !

[Dunbal]

1. Scan Citizen's chip
2. Clone Citizen's chip
3. Remove own chip and replace with cloned chip
4. Profit!

Even easier:

1. Kill citizen
2. Swap chips with the body.
3. ???
4. Profit!

Right to privacy

[Anonymous Coward]

This is what happens in a world in which Roe v. Wade is "overturned" and there is no right to privacy.

Nothing to see here...

So what is the benefit over asking them their SSN?

[AmazingRuss]

An rf tag doesnt hold records...it just holds a uniquely identifiable number that is used to look up electronic records stored someplace else...just like an SSN. A medalert bracelet could server the purpose as well. Those of us that don't have medical allergies dont need either.

I really don't see how rf tags in humans are all that usefull for anything. The tags can be fairly easily removed or inserted, which means they don't really serve as unimpeachable identification. All they could do is save you whipping out your ID or saying your social security number.

hardware security

[geoff lane]

Exactly how do you do a product recall when your product is injected into the bodies of 300 million people?

Assuming the guy hasn't been misquoted, he is a fool who hasn't given a single second of thought to the failure modes of the scheme.

This is apart from the stupid idea that you deal with the bad guys by treating all the good guys as if they were the bad guys.

Re:hardware security

[NOPteron]

*I* think the guy must be an Agent, for the super-secret "Get Humanity-ITSLEF a Darwin Award" conspiracy/organization:
you-know, the one that has agents in many publically-elected, and other oft-visible, points-of-leverage?. . .

Question: When a herd stampedes off a cliff, does its immense Assumed Authority(tm) make it *important* in its broken-heap, at the bottom?

Alternate Question: Do enough of us care to move steadily at-an-angle to what authoritative-idiocy wants, to ensure that we survive?

Inserted where?

[j_w_d]

I was thinking of just two words.

that guy was joking

[Anonymous Coward]

That guy Tommy Thompson was just joking. Don't worry about any plans like that and trust in Bush.

Remember, he is the same guy who is a major shareholder of Aventis-Pasteur and has ordered to buy millions of doses of flu vaccine last year from that company.

Can we trust a character like that?

Long way to go...

[jmking1]

We don't even have patient medical records in electronically-exchangeable form yet. How many times have you gone to a new doctor and had to fill out the same damn form listing past medical history, drug allergies, current medications, etc.?

I think implementing a huge medical database with this sort of information without chips would be a great boon to the medical field. There are plenty of ways to ID someone without implanting a chip in them.

Re:Long way to go...

[Savantissimo]

It's coming - the VA computer system is being released as open source and adapted for general hospitals and doctors' offices. When it does, count on your medical records - including any notes your psychiatrist takes - being available to anyone in any hospital or government agency.

Dont forget...

[saur2004]

that ID frequency to indicate the presence of an RFID at 6.66 Mhz ;P

Given the alternatives, I'm not so sure he's wrong

[crovira]

Imagine a world where, after a subdural implantation of a chip in your head,
* 'they' always know where you are when 'they' need to know,
* can know if there are two of you (one's got to be an impostor!)
* can free you from carrying cash (they can issue a transaction against the bank of record,),
* where losing your wallet is not a problem, if fact it can be dispensed with altogether,
* where applying for a job, a loan or a credit card is not a process that somebody else can do "for you" with forged credentials and/or forged ID.
* where access to your credentials, medical records, employment history, military records, driving record, shopping preferences etc. travels with you,
* where there are no more pesky user IDs and/or passwords to forget,
* where its easy to identify and extract your burnt body from the wreckage.

Billions of shiny capsules containing RFID chips, shining in the post apocalyptic wasteland.

Welcome to "The Twilight Zone."

Needs a Foot Implant In His Ass!

[Anonymous Coward]

He's temporarily fascinated by the possibilities: someone give him a big slap or throw some cold water in his face.

Then you have stated that you refuse to join in.

[crovira]

That means that you have opted out. And that's going to cost you something while giving you something else. Its a trade-off.

Hope you have fun out there, THX-1138.

Why must it be in an RFID chip?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why can't one's medical record be stored unobtrusively on a credit-card sized data storage device? They could carry it around with them in their wallet. No RFID tag, problem solved.

Just make sure not to charge pornography to your medical health record card. Doctors don't like that.

Mark on the Beasts

[Doc Ruby]

I sure hope these chips have a field for the homo sapiens injectee's religion, like their predecessor, dogtags. With extra precision datatypes. Then, when we finally get the Rapture Thompson's bosses in the Republican Party promised us in the last couple of elections, the government can help the apocalypse along, maybe by separating out the chosen from the infidels, "for our own mutual, eternal convenience". I sure would hate to have a glitch send me to some heaven with only 27 virgins, especially when they turn out to be me and 26 suicide bombing men.

Re:Mark on the Beasts

[SA Stevens]

I sure would hate to have a glitch send me to some heaven with only 27 virgins, especially when they turn out to be me and 26 suicide bombing men.

Is this your subtle way of coming out as still being a virgin?

Re:Mark on the Beasts

[Doc Ruby]

I am a born-again virgin.

The same Voluntary as our IDs?

[WindBourne]

Back in the 40's, when they started requiring driving license, citizens argued against it. They said that ultimately it would lead to our government to impose IDs on all its citizens similar to the way that Hitler operated (hitler did not make changes overnight). This was esp. thought so with SSN being required. If the feds required DL and SSN, they would have a huge control. So the feds (dems and republicans) said that they would never ever take control in such a fashion. In particular, the idea of branding humans was absolutely abhorant.

Well the good news is that animal branding is disappearing. It is being replaced by rfid chips implanted under the skin (typically the ear).

You call it voluntary. I see the fourth reitc.... time that this occured happening in D.C.

Our grandparents were wiser than citizens today.

booming new markets

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't see the forest for the trees if you've missed the potential for the booming new industry in the 'fake chip' arena. Thousands of new jobs in the backroom-implant sector where for just a few hundred dollars you can have a good-guy chip implanted, one with a really high FICA #.

Infection? Naaaaa...

Surprising?

[Mensa Babe]

It's all in Revelation: "And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." The mandatory chips are only a matter of time. See: [1] [2]
[3]

Re:Surprising?

[Dunbal]

and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

It's 029A that I'm worried about... (666 in hexadecimal for those who can't count to F)

to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Still, if I get it in the left hand, or the butt, I guess I'm ok, right? RIGHT???

Re:Surprising?

[Anonymous Coward]

> > to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Still, if I get it in the left hand, or the butt, I > guess I'm ok, right? RIGHT???

It's "right" as in "appropriate".

Re:Surprising?

[Dunbal]

It's "right" as in "appropriate".

      Oh and I guess "foreheads" means "before their heads", in front of their faces, not specifically their forehead. You can try to twist meaning all you want with religion. So can I. It's all a load of bollocks anyway. Hey I know, why don't we kill each other over it?

      Check out the translations of the bible in different languages - languages that don't have the same confusion between "right" and "correct" that English does. It's right hand as in NOT the left hand. Either that or all the translators were on drugs.

Re:Surprising?

[Anonymous Coward]

My God, you're such an idiot. It's explained later that the "right hand" is the one near the heart in case of good people and the one far from the heart for bad people. What sense would it make to mark everyone in the same way, smartass?

Bleh, the RFID chip is easy to disable

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

just stick your arm in the microwave for a minute.

No wait...

remote controled goverment?

[Kattana]

Will these implants recieve radio waves? if we combine this with the device to control humans by radio waves and put up a nice web interface maybe we can finaly give the people some control over their goverment, or at least some extra absurdity.

Quiet down 652272!

[Anonymous Coward]

anonymous cowardice is freedom

Re:Nah, just for immigrants.

[Anonymous Coward]

uh, so you're going to tag all the illegals? I'm sure that'll work real well.

Actually no.. the solution is to shoot all illegals. By definition they are criminals and not US citizens.

Cycle some Marine snipers into the US from the Iraqi front and smoke every fifth person sneaking across the southern border (leaving more than enough folks to tell the tale) and it'll stop.

New Agers did a good job at warning us,

[Anonymous Coward]

otherwise there probably wouldn't be so much resistance. Trust me, with this Mark of the Beast stuff going around, especially in the concept of religions, no way something like this would be accepted. Maybe if they tried this 10 years ago, it might have happened, but here in 2005, no.

Re:New Agers did a good job at warning us,

[Dunbal]

Maybe if they tried this 10 years ago, it might have happened, but here in 2005, no.

      10 years ago people were saying exactly the same thing about bank cards and a "cashless society". Some places I have been recently have actually told me that they don't accept cash anymore because of the risk. You'd be surprised what people will accept, only in small increments. This is coming, too. And when it does you will have a choice. But they'll mandate it for newborns, just like vaccines and the basic screening tests every newborn gets.

      Why would you oppose this, citizen? It's for the good of society. You wouldn't be a terrorist sympathizer would you? I'm afraid I will have to report this.

GWB-666

[Anonymous Coward]

GWB-666
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

GWB-666 is the acronym for Great Western Beast 666, which is the central computer of the Illuminati in Robert Anton Wilson's Schrödinger's Cat trilogy. [Dell, 1988] Coincidentally, according to many sites on the web, George Walker Bush (GWB) is the Antichrist (666).

Re:Disgusting

[Urchlay]

Seriously - KEEP YOUR RELIGION TO YOURSELF!

Speaking as a life-long atheist, I find that most religious texts carry some wisdom, even though I don't believe in their literal truth ("Let him without sin cast the first stone" is a good tenet to live by, whether you believe in the godhood of the guy who said it or not).

In the same vein, I find a lot of wisdom in works of fiction without believing in their literal truth (go read Dune sometime, or anything by Vonnegut).

In this case, I'd say the Revelations comment is relevant: the book describes a nasty situation, whether you look at it as prophecy, allegory, or the ravings of a lunatic. It's a situation we don't want to get ourselves into, regardless of what we believe.

No chip in me.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no RFID scannable chip being implanted in my body - it will not ever happen while I'm alive.

They will be compulsary

[jurt1235]

It just took a few years after the chips became usuable for inside a creature to become compulsary for pets in several countries around the world.
The people did not object of a chip put in the animal for identification purposes. The chips in anti theft (vehicle tracking) are a second example were there are no objections but every movement of a vehicle, and with potentially a person, can be traced. People do not object to this either.

Now just imagine the following: There is a way to track sex offenders with this chip, reaction of the public: Do it now (the discussion is already going on!)

Imagine the following small addition: If my kid has such a chip, we can always check where it is, or if it gets kidnapped by the previous sexoffender, the first critical hours can be used much more efficient to find the kid, parents reaction: I want such a chip in my kid, it will make it much safer for the kid.

Be assured, once this discussion starts going, the people who read Big Brother & some other books by the angry young men already lost this discussion and can just apply for your own chip next time you want the travel inside the country or abroad.

Re:They will be compulsary

[Dun Malg]

Imagine the following small addition: If my kid has such a chip, we can always check where it is, or if it gets kidnapped by the previous sexoffender, the first critical hours can be used much more efficient to find the kid

OK Einstein, tell me how you'd "check where [your kid] is"? Magic satellites? You're confusing RFID tags with tracking devices. An RFID tag is no more useful at finding a lost or kidnapped kid than a barcode stapled to the kid's forehead. If there's no one there to read it, it's useless.

Re:They will be compulsary

[SA Stevens]

He probably advocates scanning devices at the entries to all buildings and at all traffic intersections.

Otherwise, you're right. He's rambling about nonsense.

Re:They will be compulsary

[WindBourne]

Stores are starting to switch to RFID for theft.
Schools will probably use rfid shortly to keep out hoodlums.
My car uses rfid was it passes through a tool road.
Basically, we are going to see RFID sensors showing up in a number of areas. That way if a child passes through them, it will be known.
BTW, the next question should be, so what if all these sensors are everywhere. The gov. does not use them, right? Look up PATRIOT ACT I and II.

Re:They will be compulsary

[jurt1235]

Progress is still there too. At this moment parents in some countries (Japan, and some in the US) track where there kids are by knowing where the cellphone of the kid is.

Sex offenders and some other criminals get ankle braces with GPS tracking so they can be followed everywhere. The last can easily be combined with an RFID scanner so you know if a person is close to the criminal. Darn, I should patent this one, because it is a "good" idea.

Re:They will be compulsary

[shmlco]

Remember Minority Report? There will be readers: to get on public/private transportation, when entering buildings, renting a room, above roads and highways, in malls, and so on. I would expect to prevent fraud and for "security's sake", you'd need to prove you're you for every type of transaction.

As far as that goes, with enough logging of said readers and enough processing power, you could probably figure out everyone who was around the kidnapped kid.

Coincidence

[T.E.D.]

Does anyone else find it interested that this story was posted on the same day as the story about radio controlled humans?

Re:Disgusting

[operagost]

Why don't you keep all your opinions to yourself, then? Why must religion be targeted? For that matter, how is quoting one passage from a written text considered bible-thumping? I thought bible-thumping (i.e., evangelism) required interpretation and/or opinion? Guess what -- the right to free speech is for everyone, NOT JUST YOU. If you don't like what others are saying, please feel free to cover your ears and sing "LA LA LA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

Re:Disgusting

[revmoo]

I HATE people that have tolerance for views that differ from their own.

railgunner wasn't pushing any agenda, he was simply pasting a bible quote. Is it really THAT big of a problem for you to even VIEW religious text?

Not to mention, his post was actually on-topic and discussion-provoking, as opposed to your off-topic juvenile rant.

May not be the "Mark of the Beast" as you think it

[Imposter_of_myself]

The "Mark" may actually be YOUR personal identifier. I am NOT a Greek scholar, but I do know a little Greek. The Greek words may point to humans GIVING the BEAST their personal identification. The "mark" word in Greek is also used for like a "signet" ring that someone sealed an envelope with - to mark as their's and their's alone - their identification. This thing carrying your personal identification could be the mark described OR, it could be a DNA sample given by humans to the BEAST. Then again, I could be wrong and it could be an actual mark from the beast. Just an FYI.

Marked Sheep.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Your moon-bat Bible thumpers like Jack Van-Impe carry on about this all the time. No one consults them because they are obscure and mad as hatters."

Until it's too late. Besides if we appear to be "mad as hatters"? How do you think the YRO section of slashdot appears to the layman? Pot, kettle, black.

Re:Given the alternatives, I'm not so sure he's wr

[robertgeller]

That's pretty much along the lines that I was thinking when I read this article. I don't understand how some people can support this -- unless, of course, you're a rabid Christian fundamentalist who believes in the GWB and all that.

So its true

[lexanx]

The mark of the beast is real!

This Diarama Brought to you by...

[johnnytv]

Doctor: He's crashing! I don't know why...where is that scanner?
Nurse: I'm trying...the database is down...
Doctor: Again????
Nurse: ..All is says it SQL database error...unable to connect to localhost....
Doctor: Please send an email quickly and have the sysadmin reboot the server....

I think your coworker was semantically correct.

[AntiCopyrightRadical]

"I don't believe anything the government says." can mean a number of things. It can mean he doesn't believe 'anything the government says'. or
he doesn't automatically believe what the government says.
It's possibile that he is an idiot, and originally meant that he believes the opposite of whatever they say, but I think it more likely that he meant to say that the government is a very unreliable source of many kinds of information, and you should get your facts from other sources. (preferably a variety)

Re:I think your coworker was semantically correct.

[Kainaw]

I agree with you, but you have to know the source of the quote "I don't believe anything the government says." He is also the source of great quotes such as:

"Now that Bush has ruined the stock market, nobody will ever invest in it again."

"The Bush war in Iraq is an absolute and complete failure."

"The Patriot Act will allow anyone access to your library records without ever telling you."

"Why should I pay taxes when I don't want any of the things that taxes pay for - even the police. I can protect my own property."

"If rich people are so depressed, why won't they just give me their money?"

(after getting a 6% cost-of-living raise) "Great. Now everything is going to cost 10% more."

I could continue, but I think you can see that this person wants to secede his property from the United States as long as he is also given an unlimited supply of cash so he can buy things when he travels into US territory to shop.

Re:Nah, just for immigrants.

[pwnage]

It wouldn't. I don't support microchipping anybody.

The purpose of my post was to point out the stupidity of the OP in advocating microchipping a selective class of people.

Re:Disgusting

[Lisandro]

You forgot Heinlein. And you're very right too. Mod up!

Nice knowing you all

[Junior J. Junior III]

Have fun tracking my dead body, because that is the only thing of mine that they'll be forcibly implanting this chip into.

What's wrong with the bracelet?

[ansible]

Can someone explain to me what's so wrong and broken with the MedicAlert bracelet system?

Sure it's old-fashioned. But because of this, anyone can read the bracelet and get the needed information. Just call up the 800-number. No special RFID reader needed or Internet access.

Anything which is going to destroy the bracelet is likely to be fatal to me. So I wouldn't be worried about penicillin allergies at this point. And I don't see how an RFID tag is going to survive much better at that point.

Re:What's wrong with the bracelet?

[Anonymous Coward]

>Can someone explain to me what's so wrong and broken with the MedicAlert bracelet system?

1) you can (yourself) READ all the data on it? So it's BORING information not things like political affiliations, etc.
2) You can't be scanned/traced remotely
3) Your habits can't be sold on the private market quite so easily (where you've been, etc). Sometimes married people buy condoms using plain cash. Or maybe you spent too much time in the International Foods aisle. It may not be used for things like this but you would have to take it on FAITH it wasnt abused.

Even voluntary chipping is a threat

[garyebickford]

Chipping of humans, even voluntary, is a great threat and must be banned both nationaly (in _your_ nation) and by UN treaty agreement before it becomes trendy. Sure, such chipping could, for example, make it more convenient for us 'nice folks' who could then bypass the airport security lines - in theory. And that portends two problems.

Last first - the theoretical security advantages are illusory. Any security technology can be broken or bypassed. This has been covered by many authorities, so I defer to them. Suffice it to say that a chip can be moved, counterfeited or obtained fraudulently, among other things.

First last - I explain by telling a story: Let's say that the very wealthy get chipped, so they don't have to go through security checks. Then some 'trendy' stores that cater to them offer to allow them to enter automatically instead of having to be invited, or make appointments. Then a trendy nightclub begins using the chip to allow you to bypass the bouncer, and avoid the line.

This trendy new fad spreads. In a few years, the grocery store doesn't accept your plastic unless your chip matches the card ID. Then your kids can't get into the school building's metal detectors unless their chips are recognized by the school.

Thus, even if the chip is voluntary, the extent to which it is useful and convenient, is exactly the extent toward which it will become de facto mandatory to survive in the new society. And then, because all "nice people" will have one, anyone not having one will be defined as "bad people", and the forces to make it mandatory will become irresistible. Thus, to avoid this denouement, voluntary chipping should be banned now.

IANAL, but a law to that effect might be something like "No permanent mark or embedded device whether temporary or permanent may be used for identification purposes." Banning identifying marks follows a long liberalizing tradition that dates back to the cessation of such excesses as the Puritan's notorious "Scarlet Letter", the marking of slaves to identify them as property, and various 20th century practices that I won't go into.

Re:Disgusting

[Anonymous Coward]

"Is it really THAT big of a problem for you to even VIEW religious text?"

Yes. If you're going to quote something at least quote something that has some weight. You don't see anyone on here quoting Dr.Zeus on a regular basis.

Re: god or Money?

[Anonymous Coward]

To paraphrase: You can only serve God OR money. You cannot serve them both. The mark of the beast symbolises the victory of a monetary society over a moral one.

Proof that the bible has fundamental problems, even here. So what if one implants the chip and then never uses it, but instead moves into a christian reserve and worships for the rest of their life? According to the bible, you BURN just because of the chip!

These ridiculous all-sweeping generalities are full of holes. Just more stupidity. If the bible is that unfair and unrealistic, then following it is not a just thing anyway.

virtually everyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes ppl that can afford medical care are milked plenty, but other ppl than don't go to doctors unless they're dying are relatively allergy free and psychologically normal.
Look at the magazines lying around doctors offices and you will realize they are more 'wall-street'ish than 'newscientist'ish too.

FDA on VeriChips

[kcarlin]

The FDA's concerns on VeriChips are cataloged here http://www.spychips.com/reports/verichip-fda.html, and include chip dislocation (your little silicon buddy may wander on you) and issues with electromagnetic effects (if you think cell phones are a health issue...).

Not even new.

[VGR]

We already have technology commercially available that accomplishes this.

Remember those cheesy "MedSafe" (or whatever) pendant commercials that came on late at night, some years ago? Not the "I've fallen and I can't get up" ones; the later ones, advertising a pendant you could wear containing your medical information.

I'm pretty sure a number of elderly Americans actually wear these.

Why would anyone want a chip implanted, when a 10g pendant accomplishes the same thing with negligible inconvenience?

And how are lawmakers going to argue the case for such an obscenely Orwellian device, when a 10g pendant accomplishes the same thing with negligible inconvenience?

Re:Nah, just for immigrants.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's exactly what Osama bin Laden did. He smoked a couple of towers and left the remaining skyscrapers standing to tell the tale.

The dark side of the force is strong with you, young apprentice.

You forgot one

[bezuwork's friend]

* where there is a triving underground that kills you and takes your implant and becomes you until the next time they need to change identities in order to evade the law or get access to funds.

Not-so-hidden agenda

[AutopsyReport]

Come on folks. This has nothing to do with Thompson being a former health secretary. This has everything to do with Thompson being a major part of Applied Digital Solutions, which manufacturers the chips. It's in his best interest (a hefty raise) to promote these chips utilizing the platform of "former health secretary" to convince people this is good way to spend $200. He's not promoting more safety for US citizens, he's promoting the product with a deceptively-good sales pitch.

This is about financial progression and not health improvement. Hopefully people will recognize this in due time.

this is a good thing

[Madd Scientist]

eventually you'll all realize that without proper organization our country will fall behind countries that do properly organize themselves. assuming a non corrupt police force, and changes to the legal system making all victimless acts non-crimes, no one has anything to fear. anyone who has built any sort of organized system of any kind realizes that people need unique identifiers.

Thank God for the Bible

[Edmund Blackadder]

I am really glad the bible has this text about a mark of satan, because that will prevent any such scheme of succeeding.

Usually a big portion of americans will gladly surrender all of their freedoms in order to "protect them from terror", but I really doubt they will surrender their soul to satan.

Re:Thank God for the Bible

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope you're right. I'd mod parent you up if I wasn't anonymous.

FCUK! YOU!

[CranberryKing]

see subject

Rip off Reg story... no attribute... go to hell

[Quirk]

it's not nice to rip off a quote from the reg and not attribute it. it's biting the hand of the hand that bites the hand that feeds it.

I want my opteron...

[Sfing_ter]

I want an opteron... this is america and if i must have a chip i want to choose :)

I can see it now, holy wars over who makes the better chip, and if there is a vichip there better be an emacschip too!!

At least it might lead to universal health care...

[Sefert]

RFID chips are easy to replicate. You bounce a signal off it, it bounces a unique signal back. (This is the same technology used in stores to detect when goods are being stolen). Set up a portable unit to capture a whole bunch of unique signals, create your own RFID chips using them. Find someone with kick ass insurance and sell copies of that chip to dozens of people.

RFID has it's uses, but this isn't it. This technology is stupid on so many levels:

1. It doesn't allow any form of security, unless you're using a second form of authentication (thumbprint to correlate against, for example.) In which case, why bother in the first place. 2. People put a lot of faith in technology. If the chip says it's so, it must be so. This bodes very poorly in case of a problem. 3. If it's implanted, there's no off switch.

The earlier posting was correct though - if it becomes common enough, it'll become like a drivers license or credit card. You'll need them to perform virtually any function.

Tommy Thompson's real reason

[Simonetta]

Mr. Thompson needs lots of chip implants to keep track of all his illegitimate children.

Re:Tommy Thompson's real reason

[demachina]

This is known as an ad hominem attack. Rather than form a cogent argument against the message, you tilt off in to a vicious attack against the person. Its most often resorted to by people who can't form a cogent argument for the topic at hand.

Potential Good

[Anonymous Coward]

While the chip has a huge potential to be misused it could also save alot of lives.

If your going to have a chip why not make it removable? Something like a bracelet.

fuck Tommy Thompson in the eye

[justdrew]

no verichip for me thanks tommy boy

Re:Disgusting

[LordKazan]

Oh i'll agree that all religious texts have a few gems of wisdom buried in them here and there - that was not one of them though: it was just a pasting of dogma

http://www.russiananimation.com/food.jpg

[so sue mee]

http://www.russiananimation.com/food.jpg

3 ways to chip me....

[Wizzmer]

1) At gunpoint.
2) Getting four guys to hold me down long enough.
3) Killing me first.

But there is only one way to make it stick. And that is #3.

Wood Chipper!

[billstewart]

Oh, wait, this isn't the poll! Probably still a good idea, though...

Euro answer

[anonieuweling]

No way Jose! Over my dead body. Don't know what Big Brother *really* is? 'Useful for medical blabla'.. As if medical care is so good anyway. There is no good reason for people to carry stuff like this in their bodies.Especially at this early stage of this technology. Did you think about security, rights, etc? No way!

Re:Disgusting

[Anonymous Coward]

Asshole.

No, seriously. You're a fucking asshole. The "bible thumper" raised a valid point - many people who call themselves Christians will be in support of things like this, if it is presented to them as a way to fight terrorism. However, this is in direct contradiction to their professed belief system.

Once the Gov't has the information, it's theirs.

[JamaisVu]

The problem with a government collecting information of great detail on its citizens is that even if that current government would use that information in ways that only benefit you, governments (like anything else) are not permanent. So if you volunteer for a chip, and that chip can be read and more details put on it as uses are found and applied to this type of identification technology, that information could be used later by a government to harm you.

Think Nazi Germany or worse, Sadistically Opressive East Germany. Or the way the Soviet Union had a reputation for treating its dissenters. Or the way Mugabe handles people who aren't willing to agree with policies they believe are unfair.

This is my most basic, logical argument against this sort of thing, but there is an infinite array of other arguments against this sort of practice.

As much as I'd like to believe that we're at a point where the civilzed world is just that, and that our societies would never be able to devolve into some sick and opressive police state, I don't believe that. I'm sure that Germans wouldn't have believed that their government would get up to what it did if you had asked citizens or soldiers 30 years prior.

This is outside of the concerns of RFID being snagged by someone, anyone at all who has a device in RF proximity.

This is my rationale.

What do you think?

Sorry, but..

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't misunderstand the Bible and reject it because people have twisted it. Read it.

I hate to be rude, but I just couldn't let this one pass. The best antidote for Christianity is to sit down and read the Bible. Yahweh is a vengeful, murderous tyrant, and refusing to believe in transubstantiation doesn't change that. It's not about literal interpretations of scripture vs. figurative interpretations. It's about Yahweh's behavior.

Imagine that during Saddam's upcoming trial, it comes out that, on his orders, soldiers marched into every town in Iraq and murdered the firstborn child of every family which did not have a picture of Saddam in the window. You would justly call him evil. A child murderer. You wouldn't try to make up excuses for him. It would be clear as day.

Yet this is just what Yahweh commands in the story of Passover.

And this is just one example of hundreds. Even the most forgiving reader who actually reads the Bible will come away with the correct impression that the being described within it would not be worth worshipping even if it did exist. (If you'd like to get a start right now, go ahead.)

Re:Sorry, but..

[Mattintosh]

I wouldn't call him a murderer of any sort. I would call him someone who was judging people who were willfully disobeying his orders. And what's more, this isn't just some two bit dictator, it's God Almighty. Someone disobeying God deserves to die. Why? Is that cruel? No. He made the rules. Live by them or don't.

And as for the "child murderer" thing, no. The judgement wasn't upon children alone. It was upon every firstborn, and not just males, or even just humans. For example: my father was the firstborn of his parents. My mother was the firstborn of her parents. I'm the firstborn of my parents. Our cat was the firstborn of the litter. In that situation in ancient Egypt, all of us would die, including the cat! Unless, of course, we did the smart thing and put the blood of a sacrificial lamb on our doorposts and ate the meal of lamb and unleavened bread with our loins girded.

So, I hate to be rude, but you misunderstood the Bible and have twisted it. And by the way, only a non-student of the Bible would use the name "Yahweh" since the modern spelling is "Jehovah" and the words it's derived from are "ye hawah". If you had studied anything more than your navel lint, you'd know that. And yes, I regard those links to be nothing more than navel lint.

Re:Given the alternatives, I'm not so sure he's wr

[Anonymous Coward]

where 'they' can block your access to your money at any time 'they' wish, locate your location at any time in the ubiquitous computing/tracking environment, determine your affiliations, and quite possibly evolve this 'simple chip' into a dual purpose device, a direct input to your mind/body and a measurement device for many of your biological functions.
Oh but you won't have to carry your wallet...oh how convenient! ...like sheep to the slaughter..you know they tag cattle too so that they can control them more easily before they go of to 'retirement' oh I mean the slaugherhouse..........
Oh but you won't have to carry your wallet...oh how convenient!

Re:Then you have stated that you refuse to join in

[Dr. Droolius Drool]

I understand that freedom is not free.
But why should I allow the widespread and mindless acceptance of new ease of use technologies, if opting out will harm me? Why not just fight them from the beginning?

Case in point, I work and live in a cash economy. I am, like most living in poverty, without a bank account. I do not have a credit card. If I wish to travel by air, because I pay in cash I am subjected to being pulled and run through the security apparatus.

What you are saying is that it is a personal choice for me, not joining in modernity means strangers are allowed to fondle my prostate.

Which is something I consider every time I must travel. This is a choice that the rest of America made for me, I dont like it. I dont like anything that even vaguely smells as if it may be similar 20 years from now.

BTW before you attack my economic status, I am speaking of cheap flights, Specifically Independence air. I realize that even with that price I 'could' get a bank account. If my credit and income had not placed me in a state of debt slavery.
I grew up working class in D.C. Try paying your bills on a minimum wage job there now. I stupidly tried to fight basic market economics, I.E. not be forced out of the neighborhood I grew up in. I lost, badly. I am slowly paying my way out of debt, but still owe the next two years of my life to the forces of gentrifuckingcation.

Re: god or Money?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a literal reading, though. And anyone who professes to believe the bible without interpretation is a loony, because you have to interpret it to know what it says. So I wouldn't put much faith in the exact words written in the bible, but rather the ideas and concepts put forth. By your logic, a believer who has the chip implanted without their knowledge will go to hell, and only the most extreme fundamentalists would believe that.

Re:Disgusting

[Abcd1234]

For example, Jesus is not commonly granted godhood. He is the son of a god.

I take it you're unfamiliar with the concept of the Holy Trinity?

When 50 Cent hears about that...

[game kid]

"You can find me in the club, forearm full of chips..."

(I'll let somebody else complete that, I'm tired now...)

Security?

[Anonymous Coward]

Having seen heard and poked at a hospital's Electronic Medical Records system, I have to say security is paramount for these guys. Numerous hardware and software firewalls, many backups, and surge protectors like you wouldn't believe. Security at a hospital is pretty good. I'm afraid I don't know what the OS they were running but I do know that they have end users who connect in via Linux and Windows. Simply put, it is easier to walk into the hospital and break into the server room than to hack in from the outside because you would have to have the correct client, information for the login client, and not look suspicious on the logs which are checked by a computer to see if there is someone who has been logged in for too long, etc. And passwords are changed weekly, monthly, or on a set rotation depending on the security level the password allows access to.

Knowing that this is where my records are held with all my data going back until I was born makes be feel fine, since I know about the safety of them.

But these RFID tag thingies? I don't want to have to go in every 2 months for a "firmware update" to it so that it is more secure. I don't want some guy to sit in his window, capture my information, and then reflash his own chip to become me. I want this thing set up like the hospital. Secure beyond belief.

I am posting Anonymous and not mentioning names, but what I said about the hospital is true. I just don't want to get myself nor other people in trouble. They're good friends and I don't think they'd appreciate me posting this on Slashdot with their names. ;-)

Congress didn't approve of a war, either

[DogDude]

If the President could start an illegal war without Congress' consent, this would be a walk in the park. It won't be Bush, but I bet it'll be another Jesus-Freak idiot that all of the Jesus-Freak idiots in the country elect after George.

"Praise Jesus and pass the RFID chips! After all, it's all of our jobs to protect the children from terrorists"

also shoot shoplifters, speeders...

[Anonymous Coward]

Shoot all illegals: shoplifets, speeders, people who don't signal, people who leave their dog shit on someone else's lawn, people who did not file their taxes last year.

Re:Once the Gov't has the information, it's theirs

[Anonymous Coward]

I ABSOLUTELY agree.

Let's say I trust George Bush (OK, but work with me here) - who's to say I trust the guy after him, or the one after him or the one after him?

The problem with data centralisation is that once the genie is out of the bottle, it DAMNED HARD to put it back again.

Food for thought...

[MsGeek]

Even though George W. Bush protests loudly that he is a Born-Again Christian, the FDA approved Veri-Chip implantation in humans on his watch, during his administration.

The approval was given even though it was an election year, where GW Bush faced a Democratic opponent who had an excellent chance of winning. If the Dems had a spine and/or a strategic bone in their bodies, they would have left fliers in the parking lots of Fundie Christian churches trumpeting this fact. However, we tend to play fair, unlike Karl Rove, and this opportunity was sadly missed.

GW Bush was re-elected largely on the strength of the "faith-based" vote. Wouldn't it be just hilarious if he wasn't really "on the side of the Angels" but "playing for the Other Team?"

Note: I don't believe in Christianity, the Bible, or the Book of Revelation as prophecy. However, if someone ever tells me "You've got to have this chip implanted or you can't buy, sell or have a job," my response will be simple: "You'll have to kill me first."

I for one welcome our new innerlords.

[Anonymous Coward]

It had to be said. :)

Problems with identity theft

[Anonymous Coward]

If we already have many problems with identity theft, I don't want to imagine what will happen when people get the chips...

Re:Disgusting

[MrShaggy]

>>et him without sin cast the first stone"

This is preatty scary tho. I mean if the government does the old embrace and extend thing (Like usual), i wouldnt want to see it. So much for pee-testing.

WHAT THE FUCK?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did I just wake up in an alternate reality?

PEOPLE ARE GOIN FOR THIS?

*Smacks forehead*

Re:Newsflash - Camp sites

[Anonymous Coward]

There are quite a few documented holding sites around the US. Their official purpose remains unclear, but they are capable of holding large quantities of people.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/camps.html

Many of the web sites that document these places are prone to predetermined answers that feel over the top, but our government is prepared to place large quantities of people in long term lockup if need be. Currently, they are probably focused on "if a large war happens, where do we keep everyone that we capture?", but with the current connections between corporations and government people who are "dissidents" could easily become cheap labor.

All it needs is a catchy name...

[DbZeroOne]

It won't be long until they start calling it the "Freedom Chip" and tell every citizen that they're helping fight the "War on Terror" by having one implanted.

Wow! You really have me convinced by your clarity

[hackwrench]

of logic. But seriously, your logic is as badly formed as most of those you want to stop pushing their goods. There is a good way and a not good way, and it's not too hard to reach the conclusion that those who are going the not good way aren't interested in deviating from their course, so your pleas will largely go ignored. Furthermore, it is not unreasonable to conclude that those who are going a good way would want others to do so as well, so it makes some sense that the good ways are among the sets of those being promoted by others. Counterarguements, anyone?

Re:Disgusting

[Anonymous Coward]

Should I be forced to learn the tenets of Scientology before I condemn it as a dangerous cult?

NP.

[WindBourne]

commit a crime, and it will be severely restricted.
Well, that all depends. If you steal billions like Ken Lay, or Anshutz, and you have the right connection, then you are in ok shape.

Re:NP.

[/dev/trash]

Ken Lay is, contrary to popular belief, going to jail.

+++
  My new Home

Funny???

[RoboProg]

You think you're funny, but you're not!

I can see why this was modded up, but not sure about the "Funny" part.

This sounds like EXACTLY the kind of BS our esteemed federal govt would pull.

Al-Queda searchbot

[harvey the nerd]

I think that Tommy Thompson should be reported as a ghostwriting co-author for "Satanic Verses". Perhaps an al-Queda searchbot will show the fallacy and dangers of this trojan chip...

What! I thought implants was just for breast?

[gwcommander]

Look at here people im only going to say this once. This is the dumbest idea ever. Great for goverment and business bad for you. Sure you can always have some form of id on you but you want a guy named "Proctor" sticking stuff in your head. And the guy quoting the bible is right it will end up being a requiered thing to do if you dont got one you cant do jack. Note he is a former Bush adviser. And most of them are as smart as he is (not much) Bush probably let him go because he thought he was dumb. If an idiot thinks someone else is an idiot then he must be. Besides most of the Reps are so called chrstians even bush so they most likely would shoot it down. But if it passes im moving to Canada with all the liberals and gay people.

Dear Mr. Thompson,

[pair-a-noyd]

Fuck you very much.

Have a great day asshole!

It could

[GoClick]

Oh so it's ok to believe it as long as they only believe it as something distant right?

You know just because Christianity was the prevailing religion in north america for a long time doesn't mean it's any more ok to poke fun at it than it is to poke fun at any other religion.

The Bible says that the events of the end times will come but not when and Christians are to watch for the signs.

If you don't agree with someone's faith you can take it up with them but to publicly assault it is something best left to facists and communists. Now then you wouldn't want to be associated with either of those scarry groups would you?

Re:It could

[mink]

People claiming to be Christians seem to quite often publicly assault faiths they don't agree with. Seems to me people like them and some other groups want to be free from all criticism while being allowed to denounce all others.

mua haha hahaha ha haha haha ha

[cryptocom]

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA....LMAO.....*breath* *whew*...that was a good one. i've always wondered what happens to all the drugs that are confiscated by the DEA. now i know. they're given to our lawmakers.

This is a Monday morning article!

[intnsred]

Hey, what's up with posting this on Saturday?

Is it just me, or does /. routinely post political and privacy/civil liberties-type articles on the weekend?

IMHO, this should have been a "Monday morning" article. :-(

Good luck

[DragonHawk]

"If anyone ever pressures me to get one of these, he will get a vigorous refusal, which may include the use of firearms."

I don't disagree with you. But, if this sort of thing becomes "mandatory by law", that reaction will generally mean you either get killed in the shoot-out, or incarcerated -- and doubtless when you are incarcerated, you get implanted involuntarily. So it's death or implantation. Maybe you'll choose death. I might just make that choice as well, if it came right down to it. But I suspect most people won't make that choice, and I'm not just talking about the mindless sheep. Most people value their lives more then their freedom.

Re:Good luck

[istartedi]

Of course, if you throw in Revelations, most people read it such that anybody who accepts the mark is damned. Nevermind freedom. Also, if the people knocking on the door are chipped, they are already damned, so Christians who would ordinarily think twice about killing a soul that might be saved won't hesitate to blow away somebody who is already damned.

Re:Good luck

[lifeblender]

There are a fair amount of people that would feel this sort of thing crosses the line, specifically crossing the line into their bodies. I'm not suggesting that a mass uprising would occur, but a minor one probably would, spearheaded by the truly paranoid and followed by the concerned.

That's the thing, really. There are always causes spearheaded by fanatics. If something happens that makes concerned people agree with fanatics, THEN you get an uprising or a cult. It doesn't have to be big, but one fanatic announcing their decision would probably attract some highly concerned people, and if the fanatic in question was charismatic enough, well, then you have the makings of a small army.

This particular issue seems like it could fall into the category where concerned people start agreeing with fanatics, so don't be surprised (assuming it happens) that a lot of people actually use physical force to defend themselves en masse.

Re:Good luck

[kenji_watanabe]

Most people value their lives more then their freedom.
I wholeheartedly agree. I have always believed in trusting the lesser evil.

Re:Good luck

[Chrontius]

Death before dishonor. Coffee before both.

Woa, hang on a minute here!

[pair-a-noyd]

I recently had surgery and am now full of titanium rods and bolts in my spine. (ouch...)

Before the surgery I had to have all sorts of MRI and cat scans. They questioned me about any sort of medical implants or tattoos that I might have.

While it's not so much a problem with CAT scans, the MRI scanner can cause you very serious problems if you have metal in your body or certain tattoo ink that has a metalic powder in it. It won't suck the ink out of your skin but they say it can heat up and become extremely uncomfortable and unbearable.
Metal implants, pacemakers, pumps, etc. can cause serious problems under MRI..

I've never heard anyone mention how RFID and MRI are going to get along with each other.

And by the way, they can take the RFID chip meant for me and implant it up their asses, sideways with a chainsaw.

Be fair in your blame

[DragonHawk]

"If the President could start an illegal war without Congress' consent..."

Hey, I don't like the war in Iraq, and I think President Bush is a moron, but let's be fair here. Congress voted overwhelmingly to support whatever military action the President might take, and they never revoked that privilege. They never even considered it. They should be held accountable, too.

Re:Disgusting

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't realize that people on /. can easily say that Dr. Zeus and writing that date back to the 3rd century, which many people have died protecting, not to mention the first liturature ever printed on the printing press (The Gutenberg Bible) is the same...

You must really find Dr. Zeus inpsiring...

Re:Disgusting

[KDR_11k]

You do see people quoting Orwell's 1984. Just as fictional but certainly relevant.

Re:"These aren't the droids we're looking for"

[arbitraryaardvark]

Any historical evidence to back up your scaremongering?
1935: ss#'s issued, "not to be used for identification"
1941: concentration camp guests tatooed with identification numbers.
2000 hospital tries to prevent mother from leaving with her baby until it's been issued a ss#.
1990: i don't want to have a ssn on my driver's license. they tell me there's no form for that. i make up a form, it works.
2002: i go to vote. official tells me i have to give my ssn before i can vote. i say "cool! then i get to sue you." in the end, i vote.
2004: Hiibel v Texas: supreme court upholds man's arrest for failure to display pedestrian license.
2003: i forget who it was who's been trying to adopt a dog that doesn't have a chip.
2004: i was arrested, bonded out. they ask my ssn, i respond, as always "i don't give that out without a privacy act statement." They put me in solitary, no food. I know they're bluffing, and they let me out the next morning, after "losing" my legal files and other personal possessions.
2005: chips in passports to reenter from canada.
yesterday: i'm at my bank, and notice a notice that due to terrorism, i can't rent a box or open an account without giving up certain info, which i expect would include ssn.
20xx: chips in babies. think of the children!

i like the new slang possibilities

[comicnerd]

I like the possibilities for new slang, like maybe "hacking my arm up" would mean loading linux and sshd on the chip.

Re:Disgusting

[lsommerer]

No apostrophe needed either. It's just not plural. *ducks*

This can bring us all together...

[The Breeze]

This is a wonderful idea, if for no other reason than we finally have an issue that unites the most atheistic, rabid Slashdot privacy fanatics squarely with the fundamentalist Christian religious right.

Seriously, the fundies are going to go apeshit if this even makes it into draft legislation - and the atheists and agnostic pro-privacy people can join them. The Christians have the grass roots political network to block this with a bit of help - I hope that both sides (athiest privacy advocates and Christian fundamentalists) can put aside their differeces long enough to defeat stupidity like this, and, perhaps learn a bit from each other.

Oh, yeah, it's not enough to stop this from becoming law - you also have to pass NEW laws banning insurance companies from discriminating against those who don't get the chip, which is most likely the real danger.

-Steve

Re:This can bring us all together...

[Rekrapt]

My ass. "The Man" can chip my cold, rigid corpse as they track it to the processing plant.

Soylent Green is People!

Re:This can bring us all together...

[TheoMurpse]

atheistic, rabid Slashdot privacy fanatics
atheists and agnostic pro-privacy people
athiest privacy advocates

You don't have to be athiest or agnostic to be pro-privacy. I'm quite sure there are Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists and other religious practitioners that are too numerous to list who are pro-privacy.

Re:This can bring us all together...

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet, you, Rekrapt, are still a fascist piece of shit!

Re:This can bring us all together...

[The Breeze]

Agreed, 100%.

However, many Slashdot pro-privacy people are indeed athiests, judging by their posts. I find it amusing that on this issue fundamentalists and athiests/agnostics are most likely united in spirit.

Re:This can bring us all together...

[Oracle of Bandwidth]

I for one am a rabidly pro-privacy fundie.

Re:Disgusting

[xSauronx]

yeah except that he has a right to free speech as well, even if that means him bitching about something someone else posted. he didnt have to get aggravated, he didnt have to reply, but hes allowed to, and so are you, and so am i.

America wake up

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is the truth about chips

Please wake up to what is happening. Please read up on everything that is going on in your country and the world.

Stop tolerating it, stop hoping it will go away. Don't be hamstrung by what your friends think. Don't be afraid to take a stand.

Start asking questions about who benefited most from the atrocity of 9/11. Are you perfectly satisified with the official line, the history of the CIA, the reasons for invading Iraq, the motives of your politicans ?

And if you don't give a damn about your freedom think about the generations ahead.

You are literally building your own prisons.

Wake up before it is too late.

Re:America wake up

[SpacePunk]

So, Anonymous Coward, what do you suggest the people do? The government has all the firepower, the corporations and banks own everything, even our movement is limited. It's easy to say that something needs to be done without offering any solutions. Especially behind the mask of anonymity.

Re:Disgusting

[JimBobJoe]

Thank you for your post. You just solved a conundrum I've had for the few years.

Re:Once the Gov't has the information, it's theirs

[slothman32]

Don't compare the Good Ol' US to any of those other countries! The US can never be worse than those! [yes joke, it can be hard not in person] Well except for the slipperly slope that most people don't even know about. Even if we delved into a total 1984-esque type place it would somehow still be better than those others. Or at least most people would think so.
Fortunately the US is still better, mostly, than those other countries. For how long I don't know.
RFID is just one indicator of it. I can't think of any others right now. d'oh

No, they won't

[Anonymous Coward]

At least most of the ones I know that have talked about it. Implantable microchips are just not going to fly, and it's a line in the sand that will have people reaching for their deer rifles to avoid it. Me personally, no way will I take one. "War on terrorism" or not, those chips ARE considered the mark of the beast and millions will not take them, even if mandated by government. You apparently hate christians so much (or simply don't understand them, that there are a wide range of political POVBs inside christiantiy) that it's easy to tell that you might only know a few, you certainly haven't come up with anything remotely true.

  And the shrubs war is RAPIDLY losing favor with many Christians, they can see how they have been lied to, but are STUCK the same as you with "what to do about it". Check the latest polls, he's (his admin and policies in total)lost a *ton* of support in the last year, and it keeps dropping. Now here's big hint, think hard about this now, just take a sec to ponder it. He never had the liberals or non christians support much,did he, yet he's "dropping in the polls". How can that be then?? So, where is the ONLY place he can be losing support?? It's in (mostly) Republican circles and in some Christian circles.

I think you'll find people are really getting sick of neocons, limousine liberals, and the entire capital D and R scam conjobs.

Millions might be scared or faked out into taking the chip, but a lot WON'T, and will resist, and resist as hard as they can.

Take it from there sparky

Re:No, they won't

[penix1]

"War on terrorism" or not, those chips ARE considered the mark of the beast and millions will not take them, even if mandated by government."...
"Take it from there sparky"

Even though I'm not sparky I'll take it....

tinfoil hat mode on...

It won't be mandated as such...

It will be "voluntary" to the point that services will be denied if you don't have one. In short, it is the "if you ain't with us you're against us" mentality. There are other ways to lead sheeple to the well than with a stick. You do it by making any other choice unpleasant.

tinfoil hat mode off...

B.

Re:No, they won't

[Anonymous Coward]

But that's in line with the passage. It describes people with the mark being able to buy/sell goods and those without... Wheter it's voluntary or involuntary, I think christians will be equally upset.

You need help!

[Anonymous Coward]

So lets see if I understamd. You hate people simply because they believe in something you don't, and you think they shouldn't post their ideas simply because they have faith and you don't. Congrats, you have the same attitude as Stalin and Hitler and every other petty dictator.
Here's a clue, my anti-christian bigoted friend, failure to protect the right to speak for those you hate, means soon your right to speak will be gone as well.

And besides, don't you find it interesting that a book written 1900 years ago is capable of predicting what's about to happen. In science, if a theory predicts events accuratly we call that proof.

Feel free to write what you like. No matter how vulgar I find you I shall not tell you to keep your bigoted, anti-christian, ignorance to yourself. I believe in freedom and liberty, even for you.

Re:You need help!

[LordKazan]

Listen Mr Godwinner - I hate people who insist on thumping their religion-text-of-choice as often as they can. I don't mind the quiet unassuming religion person who leaves other people the first ago. Furthermore "a book written 1990 years ago" is NOT capable of predicting what is about to happen, and it HAS not predicted it. Feel free to believe what you want, but no matter how convinced you are of your own beliefs superiority keep them to yourself, out of government and away from places of learning you antiknowledge son of a jackal.

Re:You need help!

[Doctor_Jest]

Then don't listen.

Change the channel.

Leave.

Works both ways, Mr. Intolerant.

Re:You need help!

[LordKazan]

If i was intolerant i would be trying to outlaw their existance. The fact of the matter is I'm not.

Clue meet Doctor Jest, Doctor Jest meet Clue.

Re:You need help!

[Doctor_Jest]

Then why do you advocate silencing them?

Clue, meet LordKazan... wait.. come back!

The fact of the matter is, you have no rebuttal but to tell them to shut up, so in effect, you've lost.

Thank you... come again.

Livestock

[mpesce]

This is a bad idea because it turns people *into* livestock. And all the bovine hordes will simply be tagged because Big Daddy Gummint sez it'll protect them from them thar "terrorist" types.

Christ, cattle in the stockyards -- and who's the scapegoat?

Inserted chips never going to happen

[qaffle]

These inserted chips are never going to happen in the USA. Why never? As the comment titled 'Just a "health chip"?' mentions, for the christian church this is a sign of the end of the world (see Mark of the beast for more info).

I'm not an amazingly religous person, but with the large christian populace in the USA I can't see someone ever getting enough support to put something like this through. As soon as this became somewhat common place, a large chunk of the us citizens is going to hear sermons (or second-hand hear) about the oncoming end of the world and how whoever's backing this is either working for or is the anti-christ.

Like I said, I'm not an amazingly religous person, but even my seeing this raises an eyebrow (maybe I should go to church this week...).

Re:Disgusting

[Anonymous Coward]

I know, I know, I KNOW this is off topic and flamebait, but....seriously, Dune?

You reached for a secular tome overflowing with universal wisdom and you found Dune?

Grand rhetoric does not a philosophy make, my friend.

calls for Tommy Thompson to leave politics

[Anonymous Coward]

Tommy Thompson is a shady character and should finally get out of politics. If you do a bit of research you can dig up tons of dirt about him. I was shocked about his involvement with Aventis Pasteur etc. and I was only scratching the surface. To know that a character like this was actually able to become US Health Secretary and that he is still politically involved makes me sick to the stomach. He should publicly apologize and leave politics ASAP.

Bill Gates' reaction:

[Petronius]

"Unless the chip contains your Passport userid, it's useless."

Re:Disgusting

[betsywetsy]

"Let him without sin cast the first stone" is a good tenet to live by, whether you believe in the godhood of the guy who said it or not

IANA Biblical scholar, but I don't think they know who said that piece. The whole woman-taken-in-adultery episode is missing from early manuscripts, and many consider it inauthentic.

identity theft with a knife

[Anonymous Coward]

I want to be you. I kidnap you and cut the chip out. Duh.

In two years, the current administration of treasonous war-criming murderer thieves will be gone. Many aggressive neo-cons are actually fairly stupid. What they have in common is a lack of morality.

I'll pay ten bucks for slashdot to stop promoting this type of bait. Actually, I will not pay ten bucks. This site seems on a slow downhill roll. Where's the intellect? Who went on vacation? Now to type the code word, "spurted." How appropriate.

This might come in handy in Iraq ?

[budword]

Could this be used to locate a missing soldier or kidnapped aid worker ? If I understand the tech right, the chip is powered by radio waves from the scanner itself, if the scanner was powerful enough, could it be used to locate someone ? I don't want one myself, but if I was a contractor in Iraq, and it could be used to find me if some of "god's holy warriors" dragged me off for one of Allah's special haircuts, I'd be first in line.

If it's ok for a quarter million Americans to die for French freedom, why is it not ok for 3000 Americans to die for Iraqi Freedom ?

Re:Disgusting

[Bodysurf]

"I HATE people who thump a bible every chance they get

WE DON'T CARE ABOUT WHAT RELIGION YOU WORSHIP. Just stop trying to push it on other people by thumping your bible every five minutes, and for the love of humanity DON'T try to push it into government.

Seriously - KEEP YOUR RELIGION TO YOURSELF!"

Doing that would be contrary to Christianity:

"All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world" (Mt. 28:18-20 ASV).

BTW, he was just pointing out another Biblical prophesy that may be coming true soon.

Re:Disgusting

[Anonymous Coward]

First, if you feel the need to hit the caps lock key to make your point, then you probably don't have much to say.

Second, your name is LordKazan. Are we to believe that you think of yourself as a diety? Maybe you should keep your religion to yourself and change your name, or quit posting on Slashdot.

Is that legal?

[lsommerer]

Some places I have been recently have actually told me that they don't accept cash anymore because of the risk.

Is it legal [in the US] for people to say you can't pay for something with cash? It says on the bills, "this note is legal tender for all debts, public and private". It actually says it in all caps, which must make it important. What does that mean if it doesn't mean that you have to accept this as payment? And if it means that, do businesses have to accept larger denomination bills without question?

As I recall, you're on the hook if you take counterfeit(sp?) bills.

Re:Is that legal?

[raoul666]

A business can refuse a sale for any reason they choose. However, if they agree to make said sale, they must accept legal tender (cash) with a few provisions. (This is for Canada, btw.) Pennies, you are obligated to accept no more than 50, nickles, 40, dimes, 50, quarters, 40. As for bills, you may refuse to take any bill you believe to be counterfeit. Essentially, any old, large denomination bill, I'll refuse at sale, just because it COULD be counterfeit. Want to buy something? Use tens and twenties. It's easy and it works.

Let us all help eachother!

[kermitthefrog917]

you know what? I fully respect anyone who has the courage to beleive in something, doenst matter what, instead of concentrating so much effort trying to bring others down... putting religious duties aside.... maybe you should take a step back and look as whats going on... on the one side.... the religious people are trying to (according to what they beleive) bring you up and bring happiness into your lives (whether you find them successful or not is irrelevant at the moment)... on the other side... you anti-religious people work so hard to tear us down in our beliefs... what ever happened to good intentions and common coutesey... even something as simple as manners.... if you dont agree with the religious ideas... you can just ignore them... its not that hard... but dont attack them... dont waste energy dragging people down... its just not polite....

Re:Let us all help eachother!

[Anonymous Coward]

I like .. You like ..... these are dots .... ...... I'm surprised slashcode didn't stop you.... ... ... .... geez dude.... ... chill with the..... dots...... they never intended on being so many of them..... .. .. . you're gonna break that key off.....
Is it morse code or something? geez.

Lay off the dots!.......

Re:Let us all help eachother!

[kermitthefrog917]

Glad you read what I wrote. I can tell you really took it all in and are really trying to not bring people down. (total of 2 dots)

Re:Disgusting

[penix1]

Besides, it is "Dr. Seuss" not "Dr. Zeus". One is the author of children's books the other I presume is the doctor of the gods...

B.

Re:Disgusting

[rpresser]

"Let him without sin cast the first stone" is a good tenet to live by, whether you believe in the godhood of the guy who said it or not

Please define "sin" in a self-consistent way without resorting to deity.

Mod Parent Up

[scottv67]

He speaks the truth.

The idea is that a stable credit history implies that its owner will be a stable person, more responsible, and less likely to rob the company due to a high financial burden.

I've belived the same thing for quite a while. It seems that co-workers who have terrible personal credit also turn out to be very sloppy when it comes to technical work. They also seem to spend an extraordinary amount of time on the phone (when they should be working) trying to get their home phone/cell phone re-connected or talking to collection agencies.

I don't know about other lines of work, but techies won't can control their personal finances usually don't do that well at work either.

I also agree with your comment on traveling. Every place I've ever worked required me to use my own credit card when travelling and then I would be reimbursed. If someone has no credit or their card is maxed-out, how are they going to go to a conference or to a class in another city?

Last week I was having lunch with the president as well as the head of technical services for a local technology firm. I happened to bring up the credit check thing and they confirmed that they run a credit report on each person who interviews for a job. A bad credit report means you don't get any further in the interview process.

I've worked alongside I.T. people from all different kinds of backgrounds (male, female, black, white, gay, straight, etc.). But it has been the people with poor control over their personal finances who have consistently turned-out to be poor performers on the job.

Re:Mod Parent Up

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a difference between having "bad credit" and having "no credit history because you don't borrow money". The latter should certainly show that you can control your finances.

If a company that I worked for demanded that I loan them some money whenever they wanted, and that they'd fire me if I didn't comply, I think I'd have a reasonable wrongful termination case. If they want me to use a credit card, they can issue me a company one. If they want me to always have a cell phone, they can buy me one to use.

Re:Mod Parent Up

[scottv67]

I don't think you'd be fired for "failing to loan your employer money". But you'd find going to training classes and conferences very difficult. And you would be labeled as a "troublemaker".

Yes, it's possible to get cash advances from some employers for travel. But usually involves a large amount of paperwork. "Company credit cards" are also usually hard to get and end-up in the hands of managers if they exist at all. (In this discussion, I'm talking about techies who travel occassionally for training - I'm not talking about road warriors who make their living on the road.)

As far as "wrongful termination", I am a salaried I.S. person and we are "at-will employees" in this state. We can be terminated at any time. The case may be different in your state but it's made quite clear during employee orientation that we can be fired at any time. I don't think you'd have much of a chance in court with your "wrongful termination case". [The only exception would be if you are lucky enough to be a salaried I.S. person *and* be part of a union.]

Now, if you were fired because you are a minority, because of your sexual orienation, because of your gender, because you refused sexual advances from your supervisor, etc. then you have a case.

I love how the "big talkers" on Slashdot say "Well, I'd never take a job that required me to be a corporate drone. They can shove that job up their ass!" Please keep that attitude going. You will find yourself unable to get anything more meaningful than a job at McDonald's (if you can stand their "requirement" that you wear a uniform).

Let's take a step back for a second, my post said that some employers run a credit check (just as some run drug tests) on prospective employees. If your credit history looks "funny" compared to another equally-qualified candidate, things do not look good for you to get that job. As I said in my previous post, the techies that I've worked with who had severe performance problems also had very bad problems with their personal finances (both in the past as well as ongoing).

There's a difference between having "bad credit" and having "no credit history because you don't borrow money". The latter should certainly show that you can control your finances.

I agree with you there. But even if you have paid for everything with cash, you will still have some sort of credit history. If you have a "clean slate" with no store charge cards, no cars that were financed, no other loans, that tells me that you were at least diligent in paying your phone bill (both home and cellular) as well as your rent, your utility bill and everything else that is required in life. So even a "blank" credit report does tell a story (in this case, it's a "positive" reference).

Re: god or Money?

[Anonymous Coward]

I posted the parent comment that got this little thread started, about monetary vs. 'moral.'

Would like to say that I'm not of a uber-christian mindset, myself. I have my own interpretation of the bible (having seen many different translations and some knowledge of the history and difficulties in translating the New T, as well as significant historical background regarding the Old T) and I do not believe in God, Heaven or Hell.
To me, the things described in revelations, and the idea of hell, are just a path humanity could find itself going down. We tend to forget that, when these ideas were first being shared, humanity was at a very primitive level of rational thought, experience and knowledge. As a result, things were taken and understood on a much more personal level. At the time of a lot of the Old T. stories, people didn't even realise that sex could produce babies. Seriously.

Ultimately, some fundies do take it all literally. But it's just a book with some interesting ideas that you can interpret yourself, just like any other. I consider it a personal story about mankind's cognitive history and possible future choices and their hypothetical consequences (discovered through hallucinogenic substances).

Fini.

Re:What it really is

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not call it what it really is? A livestock tag.

An interview in post-chip world

[relaxrelax]

7 June 2007. Post-implanting world.

You come up to an interview at IBMicrosoft online (or whatever is big enough to get access to hush-hush technology). The post is being a night-shift janitor in a level one tech support service (the level where they deal with clueless newbies).

So you go to the building.

The security guy in front looks up a display screen that only he can see (he has special glasses) and announces you don't get the job.

Why not? Oh pick one of these:

-There is a 12% chance of developping acute schizophrenic paranoia in your family. You won't because you adopted and your medical record doesn't say, but the company doesn't take chances...

-The internal insurance company in this company objects to your constant McDonald's habits. Your medical records, which are listed as missing on the chip, are suspected to be hidden since you never got sick at all.

-You're an immigrant and you didn't get chipped yet. You won't get an explanation, or you will get it only in technical english. Sorry!

-You're diabetic. They think you'll be missing at least half a day of work more than the average employee, which is accurate. Tough luck, every companies hiring janitors is using the same discrimination because this is the preprogrammed example... discrimination suits will fail as they will claim buggy software or human error.

-You are the perfect employee, but since you're detected around gay bars (where you're a janitor) you're considered possibly incompatible with your boss who has been detected around ultra-conservative anti-gay churches every sunday.

-Some lonely geek hacked the thing to allow only women 18 to 25 at the job. There is plausible deniability since he cut-and-pasted some of the top-chairman's receptionist wanted profile to get all those "dynamic and hardworking" bland profile things. The guy eventually got fired over another hack, but the discrimination hasn't left the company when the discriminator was fired!!

-You have the same name as one of the people on the blacklist. The security guy thinks you are an ex-husband from hell. He didn't bother to check at pictures because he was lazy.

-You were detected at a women's rights demonstration, an anti-fur club, a conspiracy nut journal's headquarter, three labor unions, one school for the handicapped, a linux conference, and a swinger club all in the same week. (i.e. you were a journalist back then). They won't hire you because you think you're heavy into politics or weird stuff.

-You are the perfect employee, but since you're detected around ultra-conservative anti-gay churches (where you're a janitor) you're considered possibly incompatible with your boss who has been detected around gay bars every sunday.

-Some kind of really fishy algorithm bases on fishy statistics said you were 1 point short of an interview. Some of the scoring relates to your astrological sign. You lost points for not working or studying for 2 years in 2004-2005, where you helped your brother learning to walk again after an accident.

-You are the perfect employee, but since you're detected around gay bars (where you're a janitor) you're considered incompatible with your boss who has been detected around gay bars (where he delivers the beer on weekends) and the boss one level up can't stand the idea of man-man kissing in the company. So he added some kind of anti-aids-spreading bias to the fishy scoring algorithm.

-You worked for open source 14 years ago. They suspect you will steal tech support level one material ("to close a window click the X in the up right corner").

-You are a blogger. Any kind of blogger. They suspect you would retroblog everything if you leave the company.

-You have recurring acne on you medical record, and the policy is that first-floor employees should look good for when journalists come by. Of course they don't know the acne is on your back and chest, which they wouldn't discriminate again in person even if they knew.

-You were never

Re:Disgusting

[Anonymous Coward]

"Yes. If you're going to quote something at least quote something that has some weight. You don't see anyone on here quoting Dr.Zeus on a regular basis."

'I do not like green eggs and ham, I do not like them Sam I Am!'

there ya go.

a simple solution

[Anonymous Coward]

and the new geek chic fasion accessoy of the month is: Lead arm bands!

Re:Disgusting

[Clockwork Apple]

"BTW, he was just pointing out another Biblical prophesy that may be coming true soon."

ANOTHER prophesy? There was one that actually did come true? Details please.

Re:Disgusting

[Urchlay]

Please define "sin" in a self-consistent way without resorting to deity.

I define it as "deliberately doing something I believe is wrong", usually "because I wouldn't want it done to me". Example: murder. I don't do it, and I hope nobody does it to me. Yes, there are fine shades of meaning I'm leaving out: is it murder to execute a murderer? What if he's a mass murderer? What if he killed your wife/kids? How about if you're drafted and forced to fight in a war where it's kill or be killed? What if you believe in the cause the war is about? You have to answer these yourself, honestly, and there will be no quiz after class. I won't hate you for answering them differently than I would, and I won't try to force you to see things my way.

I don't believe there is an easy yardstick to measure this stuff by. I also know that not everyone agrees, and I don't believe everybody should agree. I can only be responsible for my own choices and my own behaviour. Yours are up to you.

There is no "one size fits all" morality. You've asked me to define "sin" in a self-consistent way, but it's not self-consistent, any more than concepts like "love", "hate", or "fear" are. I decide what's right and wrong for me, and you decide what's right and wrong for you... or you accept a predefined "right and wrong" model from a religion (or maybe you start with a template and customize it a bit). Life is full of this sort of illogical stuff. To deny it, or to try to assign meaning where there is none, is an exercise in self-delusion.

At this point, a religious man would say "that's because God/Buddha/Allah/Odin/Whoever made things that way". I don't know the reasons (and neither do the truly faithful: they have faith, which doesn't require knowledge). I'm just stating what I've observed: the Universe doesn't always make sense to me (and to a lot of other people).

Sometimes I do ask myself, "What would Dad do?"... sometimes I call him up and ask. But ultimately I'm responsible for my own actions... because I hold myself responsible. (I find circular logic makes me dizzy, don't you?)

Wow, that was a long off-topic ramble. But you did ask...

Re:Disgusting

[Anonymous Coward]

Most Christians are tolerant of other religions

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

You are joking, right?

Re:Disgusting

[Winkhorst]

As were all the Egyptian kings pro forma sons of Amun-Re. I suspect that the average Egyptian in the street at the time knew damn well these characters weren't REALLY sons of the composite sun god and city god of Thebes. At least the ones who could think their way out of a paper bag could. There are always idiots who think any old mumbo jumbo is real.

Good enough for dogs

[TheSync]

If it is good enough for my puppies, it is good enough for me. Chip away!

Yes, but...

[OakDragon]

...can it run Linux?

Citizen ?

[ultranova]

Enjoy your assimilation in the land of the free, citizen.

Don't you mean consumer ?

Disney, Microsoft and VeriChip are citizens. You, on the other hand, are just a human being, and therefore merely a consumer. After all, government is supposed to be "by citizens, for citizens", and who's interests is it looking out for - yours or Mickey Mouses ?

Voting does matter

[beforewisdom]

If it is one lesson the Bush Administration will teach everyone is that voting and who you vote for counts.

I'm a Republican

[Anonymous Coward]

...and the thought of this scares the hell out of me as well..lol.

I can see the potential benefits of this chip...you'd have to be blind not to see how this could help with things like identity theft, etc..especially if it was encoded with DNA sequences; the benefit in the medical field (imagine having all your medical history in your hand for emergency personal to access);The benefits in making CC's obsolete and more secure financial transactions; And much more..

BUT, even I, as a stunch conservative Republican can see the inherit flaws and ability to abuse the technology. It dont' matter WHAT party is in office, they are all the same no matter what they say, when it comes to abusing these types of things. :(

It's a shame too, because it could do so much good. But I"m also afraid that it WILL come to pass in the next 25 years or so that you will be implanted at birth. :(

Re:Disgusting

[Anonymous Coward]

Please define "sin" in a self-consistent way without resorting to deity.

This is easy and painfully obvious. I'm geetting sick of reading posts by people who are clearly reading "attacking christianity for dummies". I'm not a xtian either, it's just gotten retarded now.

Okay, here goes. See if this makes any sense to you at all. SIN IS WHATEVER YOU THINK IS WRONG. There, self consistant. If you see someone doing something wrong, and you have never done anything you think is wrong, then by all means, cast the stone and judge and condemn. But be warned, the measure you use will be measured unto you, and if you judge and condemn another according to your own idea of right and wrong, others will do it to you.

It's really easy to see in life without having to be a xtian. Now, let others believe what they want to believe. You are in no position to correct anyone elses religious beliefs, because none of us are.

Re:Disgusting

[flosofl]

Please define "sin" in a self-consistent way without resorting to deity.

First off, you missed an article in that sentence: a deity. Without it, you sound like Madonna :)

The best definition of "sin" I ever saw was in Carpe Jugularum by Terry Prachett. I'm paraphrasing, but I beleive Granny Weatherwax said sin is treating other people as objects. No more, no less. All "sins", whether of a religious basis or not, flow from this one thing. Murder, theft, lying, etc..

Real Deal

[t_allardyce]

Obviously this wont be mandatory and I would be first in line for spontaneous riots if it was. In fact no-where does this guy say that he intends for it to be mandatory but what's suggested in the article is the serious, real and far far more scary thought than government mandated chips: society mandated chips. Think about how 'useful' these things, or in fact any human identification system would be. As they said, no more waiting in lines, paying bills, going through security etc, it would be useful for finding your kids, monitoring cheating partners, and a whole host of both useful and disturbing things.

What happens if normal people start choosing to use these sort of things? what happens if people are paid to use these things or their company mandates it? sooner or later allot of people will start to have them and suddenly if you don't have a chip or an iris on a database you're left out, maybe you will have to wait in security lines or be handicapped in various ways, then soon you could be left out entirely, turned away by shops just as a tramp would be now. Perhaps new entertainment content will use DRM tied to your chip so you wont be able to get all the things 'normal' people enjoy. This is mandatory ID the free capitalist way, the market and society will decide what everyone does and if you don't go with the flow you will be subject to a lower quality of life.

Re:Disgusting

[smparadox]

Please define "sin" in a self-consistent way without resorting to deity.

Easy. "Sin" means "without".
Oh, you meant in English...

Re:Disgusting

[Digital Pizza]

It may be off-topic, but it was very well said; I'd mod you up if only I had points right now.

Re:Nah, just for immigrants.

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean, like Tim McVeigh?

Like he couldn't have paid someone to swap out his for a fake id.

I could see it now... They feds go over the records at the truck rental company and get the identity of the chip they scanned at the transaction. Hours later the FBI, ATF, SWAT, Army, Navy, Marines, National Guard and Janet Reno are staking out a ranch in Crawford, Texas.

"We know it's him, those ID chips don't lie!"

Applied behind your mastoid....

[meburke]

Combine this with the video of the radio-contlled woman, and you have a winner for the totalitarinist forces of evil!

if it were me.

[/dev/trash]

I'd be watching for Isiah. Then again I'm more into the Old Testament end times.

+++
  Husi is where's it at

Resistance is Futile

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a great plan! Combine this with the remote control people article, US Corp,er , government dream come true. I have a great great idea that can stem from this! What Hollywood and the music industry not only want, but need, since without huge government support their businesses are unviable, this also applies to large US software firms, as they have 0 confidense in their products security, they need laws like DMCA and patents to keep the competition out. We need to put chips in people's brains , and give Hollywood the intelectual property rights to all vision, and the US music industry the broad intellectual property rights on all sound. Now if refuse to pay your hollywood/music/microsoft taxes the chip clicks in and people are left blind and deaf, but you know, sight and sound aren't NEEDED to live, after all. That should teach those IP thieves not to see or hear without payment! Imagine being blind and deaf and curled up in the fetal position screaming, Tom Cruise and Fred Durst need more money!

The EFF?

[/dev/trash]

They're off defending some guy's right to download kiddie porn.
+++
I once was a great hacker.
+++
http://www.drudgereport.com for the truth.

Anything Else You Need To Know About This?

[Master of Transhuman]

"Thompson, now a director of Applied Digital Solutions, the company that makes the chips"

If you can invade Iraq so your cronies in Halliburton can clean up, why not force everybody in the world to have a chip in your arm so your company can clean up?

Is there any doubt that the cyberpunk sci-fi vision of corporations running the world is now a reality?

What we need now are the cyberpunks, shadowrunners, and heavily armed street gangs to keep the corps honest - or dead.

The Digital Vanity Plate

[dos4who]

Awesome! I'd like one that spits out hex code "29A"! I'll save you from dusting off that scientific calculator... in decimal, it's "666". ~m

Doctors are only afraid of being sued

[Anonymous Coward]

Face reality, medical dude: when we take all the glitter from apparently stellar statements like "implanted chips are useful because it keeps medical history data", all I see is that doctors are just trying (as everyone else -- this is not exclusive to doctors, but to any US citizen) to cover their asses, since there's a huge legal burden in case of malpractice.

Also, labs have also created tests for all stuff you mentioned (adverse reaction to drugs, for instance).

See, I think that everyone is just getting lazy. Perfect medical history is no guarantee that a complicated case will be solved, since its interpretation lies in human hands.

In the same token, perfect surveillance by the government will also not extinguish terrorism, since the implementation of said policies are dependent upon the human factor.

The only party that still does refute to accept this fact is the courts of law and their corresponding lawmakers. And here's news: the law also depends on humans to carry on their proceedings. But the law refuses to acknowledge this!

I smell catastrophe!

Re:Disgusting

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep your extreme secularism to yourself.

Amazing how your response shows your true fanaticism.

Am I the only one that sees a problem here?

[Chrontius]

From the front page:

Former Health Secretary Pushes for VeriChip Implants
"Tommy Thompson, the former Bush Health Secretary after implanting a chip into himself, is going to submit a proposal within the next 50 days to promote it for everyone in the USA.

and...
Researchers Create Radio Controlled Humans
As the story explains, when a weak electrical pulse is delivered to the mastoid behind your ear, your body responds by shifting your balance towards it. If the current is strong enough, it not only throws you off balance, but alters the course of your movement.

Am I the only one that sees the problem here?

Re:Disgusting

[kberg108]

" Global Warming. Darwinism" ???

How are these based on faith? Last I checked both are products of scientific study. Now the "Earth Worship (save the trees, lower the temperature)" is an action, based upon the faith, that the described behavior will make a difference which is the basis of all religion and also the rift between all religions.

Here goes any kharma i have

[bxbaser]

Global Warming. Darwinism and Earth Worship (save the trees, lower the temperature) are as much a religion as Christianity or any other.

It's on faith that each are based.

based on faith ?
what kind of crap is that. faith is something you have if you have nothing ,the nothing meaning proffs and facts. Last time i looked global warming is a proven fact. save the trees, lower the temperature another fact.

Most Christians are tolerant of other religions.
Yea sure, so tolerant they come to your door to attempt to tolerate you right into thier religion.

Re:Here goes any kharma i have

[Bradmont]

Tolerance is not the same thing as agreement. Being tolerant means you recognise a person's right to hold a differing view, not belief that that view is valid or true. To require a Christian to believe that other religions are equally true is to be completely intolerant of Christianity, and contradicts everything the Christian believes. And indeed, forcing the Christian to not try to convince you of his beliefs is tantamount to having him deny his beliefs.

Really, if someone thought I was going to hell, even if I didn't believe in hell, I'd be offended if he didn't try to help me escape that destiny...

The Traveler

[Ixitar]

Maybe we should start referring to Tommy Thompson as General Nash. He seems to fit the bill.

Mmmm, Disgusting Digital Pizza

[Anonymous Coward]

Mmmm, Disgusting Digital Pizza

Prophecy

[m0rphm0nkey]

Well...having read the old testament a time or two, there are a lot of prophesies about this Jesus guy that seem to have worked out. But that could all just be Jewish conspiracy right? I mean, maybe hitler was right "old testament, new testament,or just the sayings of Jesus, it's all just the same old Jewish swindle". Personally I don't think so but I have to admit Hitler definitely had his say about it.

Now talk about your conspiracies. I suppose the jews must have been conspiring to get us to submit to government authority or maybe treat each other the way we would want to be treated or something crazy like that.

Ya know it's kind of funny that the jews of Jesus' time mostly thought that their religion was a conspiracy to create this super guy that was going to wipe out all the romans. A LOT of them were REALLY pissed off when Jesus actually showed up and said "No, the Roman occupation of Israel is fine, render unto cesars that which is cesars, don't worry, be happy." Turns out it was just a conspiracy to try to get people to treat each other less crappy, and to be willing to die for it, and even more perhaps...to live for it.

I'm curious how many people (I suppose more specifically you clockwork) reading this have had dreams that came true. I'm not talking about snow white dream come true or "deja vu" or any of that crap I mean like technicolor full length dreams about stuff that has then happened as described in the dream. I'm curious because I'd like to know if I'm the only one reading slashdot that this has happened to (and on multiple occasions).

In one instance I wrote it down and still have the record. I'd written it down and forgot about it then in recalling it after I'd proposed to my wife I realised I'd dreamed about my future wife in such detail that I couldn't deny that it was the case. Call it personal prophecy if you will.

Now granted dreaming about stuff thats going to happen a millenia or so from now, or even anything thats going to happen to anybody else for that matter, is something I haven't experienced, but it doesn't seem crazy or impossible to me, just an extroardinary extension of an ordinary incident.
Kind of like how going to the moon was just an extroardinary extension of the very ordinary incident of setting off a bottle rocket.

A lot of people don't "get" shakespeare anymore because language and verbal memory aren't as important to our lives as they used to be when evidence in courtrooms was almost strictly "heard" and ones life and livelihood often depended greatly on remembered rambling details of conversations and being able to verbally relay and remember all kinds of things that we take for granted in written form. Funny how literacy seems to some extent have had some detrimental effect on our ability to appreciate what are considered to be some of the past masters of language.

Perhaps in that same way we as a species have lost some of our ability to dream or believe in dreams because we rely so much on the "visions" that others entertain us with. Bread and circuses etc, Rambo, James Bond, XXX, porno whatever. Perhaps thereby losing some of our ability to appreciate prophecy.

I suggest this because I noticed (upon forcing myself away from commercial media entertainment for a while) I started dreaming again after a long hiatus from the same. Not necessarily the "prophecy" kind, which seem to have a specific "texture" if you will (at least in my case) but just dreams of any kind. I hadn't woke up and vividly remembered a dream in so long that is was sort of a shock to wake up one morning and do so.

Anyway, I suppose my point is that I can understand someone thinking that prophecy (generally in the form of recorded dreams or visions) is just not possible if they haven't experienced it at any level. Try it, maybe you'll like it. If you can. I couldn't really say if it's possible for you as (hence my question about others dreams) I don't know what percentage of the population this happens to

Re:Prophecy

[Clockwork Apple]

I dont think the writers of the bible were any more prophets than I think Orwell was. Did he get lots of things right? yeah sure he did. Could have gone (could still go) another direction though, and self-fulfilling prophesy is a whole other ball of wax.

The self-fullfilling type is the varieity we usually see. Could also call it a passive conspiracy I guess. Monkey see, monkey do, whatever...

The question was mostly rehtorical though. I dont expect there are any verifiable prophecies folks are going to be able to find. Kind of like the science behind ID, it's only there for people who want to see it.

I dream, I just dont think of my dreams as the revealed word of god, which is why I probably dont think your dreams or Bush's or the Pope's are either. Have I ever had dreams that seemed to come true? Sure, But I have seen situations from old TV shows play themselves out in reality too, doesnt make the screenwriters who wrote them into the creators of that reality.

You dont have to be a prophet to see that, given the tech at our beck and call, the rulers of nations (especially this one) would find ID/Tracking chips a usefull tool for population control. Its eazy to understand that people in power wanting to keep their power, give them tools and laws to enforce their use and you dont need a message from the kind old man in the sky, or Orwell.

We bought all that fear they sold us a few years back and we need now we need to buy the accessories that go with it. The "mark of the beast" is one of them, it should go well with our terror alert color code and our soylent green (new for next season).

C.

Welcome to Carousel

[Anonymous Coward]

> Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to
receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads

And we only have to see Logan's Run to see the drawbacks of that

Too easy

[Anonymous Coward]

So who says the government will be the only ones to know how to program the information on these chips?

Hey look, my implanted chip says I'm Bill Gates. Gimmee gimmee gimmee!

VeriChip Implant reply

[Anonymous Coward]

If I can remember correctly, President Bush ordered 300 million Verichips the week after 9/11/2001. This idea that every American should get implanted should come as no surprise to anyone. This plan has been in the works since 2001.
The trouble comes when our leaders try to impliment this plan. There are too many advocacy groups warning of the coincidental nature of this biochip and the "Mark of the Beast" written in the pages of the Bible. How do you convince a nation of the benefits of the Verichip when you have large percentage of your population believing that they will go to Hell if they take it? Fear may be the only way to change the population's view of the Verichip. An event that is so large, so frightening that it causes young and old to flock to the verichip for protection would do the trick. We have seen that Americans are willing to give up their freedom for a feeling of protection. How much are they willing to give up? Stay tuned, and we will see.

ID Only, No Data

[Oculus Habent]

But you aren't taking the data with you, only an ID. Unlike the JumpDrive, a stolen ID can only help someone if they know how to access the medical databases.

Re:Nah, just for immigrants.

[Stonent1]

I'm glad the P.C. bleeding heart people who had mod points today decided to tag my original post as Flamebait. I'm so glad to know that dissenting opinions are not tolerated here. If you happen to have come from another country who was not very nice to its citizens and have attained US citizenship, consider yourself very lucky. If you come here legally, I say "Welcome!" , but if you use any other means other than the legal way, I don't think you deserve the protection of our constitution.

Taking Over...

[Fotinakis]

Get your chip implanted today, it's FREE! Sponsored by ... Google.

MRI Machines could pose a problem

[Bhodi]

Privacy and Mark of the Beast issues asside, if this is for medical reasons what are you going to when this person needs a MRI?

Re:MRI Machines could pose a problem

[buford_tannen]

They'll ban MRIs, thus putting me out of a job.

Actually, this is something we've discussed at work a lot. There is no easy answer AFAWK, as the magnetic field and/or the RF emissions would do nasty things to the chip, the patient, or both.

The magnetic field isn't the only problem here. Ever put an rfid (like the larger ones embedded in newer college id cards) in the microwave? Imagine something like that from the imaging coils. (A 3.0T RF amplifier can produce as much as 35kW ERP if you bypass the safety controls).

Re: The definition of "Sin"

[some guy I know]

Granny Weatherwax said sin is treating other people as objects. No more, no less.

So I guess that Granny Weatherwax doesn'r consider beastiality or animal cruelty to be sins.
I'd be more inclined to agree with him (or, at least, acknowledge some validity in his statement) had he used the phrase "others", or perhaps "other animals" or "other beings", instead of "other people".

So we punish the healthy and innocent... AGAIN!

[hacker]

Let me be the first to say that we already have a system in place that solves this exact problem. Its called the MedicAlert System (commonly found in a metal bracelet).

My wife, a diabetic and celiac, wears one, and it works perfectly for identifying and retrieving the medical records of the patient in seconds. No need for an invasive, implantable chip, and the best part... you can take it off if you don't want to wear it (such as when attending rallies where carrying identification can be a problem).

Why should we enforce people who are not sick or those who do not have a "rough" medical history, to have a chip implanted in them?

I'll be the first in line to be gouging this out of my arm with a very sharp scalpel or other object. Sorry, I prefer my 4th Amendment Rights to remain true:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

No thank you, you can't have my encryption keys (and yes, I would rather die before giving up those keys, even if they simply secured my cornbread recipe), and you most-certainly can NOT have my medical history, without my direct consent or approval, even in life-or-death situations.

Call me when ...

[cfuse]

Civil liberties, who cares? Call me when I can store my files on it - I would voluntarily get a storage device installed. Preferably wireless and able to play my Mp3s directly into my ears.

Re:Disgusting

[On_fire7]

The last book of the Bible is also not pluralized.

Actually it is sometimes, it is a matter of prefernce, and depends on the situation.

VeriChip, is it the Mark of the Beast?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are two types of 'marks' in the old and new testements. Natural and un-natural. Natural:birth/burn etc. Un-natural: Tatto or live stock showing ownership/property. In the AKJV the mark was 'in' the hand or 'in' the forehead and no one can buy or sell without it. So here was the 'mystery' the mark was IN not ON. People knew what a mark was but one that was IN? So some thought God really meant ON. Changed the word and copywrited it and made lots of money. Anyway, so we know what a mark is but now the number. 666. hmmmm long story short, in hebrew 666 can be written as WWW. John was "Hebrew."

Buy or sell without an internet ID? Social Security number anyone?

I see your point

[AntiCopyrightRadical]

That was hysterical.

You made my day.

Something interesting...

[cr0sh]

RFID chips are easy to replicate. You bounce a signal off it, it bounces a unique signal back.

They don't really bounce a signal back, but rather they detect the presence of a power signal (they are powered up), and then start broadcasting on a different frequency their information. The signal/frequency used for power may also act as a carrier wave for commands to the chip as well.

But your statement got me to thinking...

What if, similar to a hologram, you could encode useful data into an interference pattern. I am certain this can and has been done before. You can probably encode a ton of information. So, in a "barcode" like situation, a laser is shown on a reflection interference pattern "sticker", and the laser is reflected and information is relayed back to the receiver via the interference pattern, for further decoding into useful information.

On a silicon chip size device, perhaps the interference pattern is generated via some special pattern etched on the silicon which combines informational content with effective reflective RF antenna design (possibly etched via x-ray lithography or something?) to generate the interference pattern as "noise" which can then be processed by the receiver to extract the data...

Not sure if any of this would be feasible, but the concept of storing a ton of information onto a simple sticker or chip, which doesn't require an external or internal power source, which utilizes simple reflection (either laser or RF) similar to radar, might be an interesting and marketable invention for certain industries.

Too bad I don't have a ton of cash to patent this (although, knowing today's world, it had probably already been patented in a ton of forms and uses)...

Re:Something interesting...

[Sefert]

Hm... the RFID tags they stick in CD's and clothes and stuff are not powered. They do generate unique identifiers when they're designed right. Key fobs, or those scannable ID cards are all examples of the type of RFID you are describing. So yes, it's been patented, methinks.

Re:Something interesting...

[cr0sh]

No, they most certainly are powered, by RF. Like I said, the RF powers the device, wakes it up (and maybe sends commands over the RF), then the device transmits the data requested back wirelessly (but on a different frequency from the power RF). It works basically the same as an AM crystal radio, except with a very low-power transmitter and cpu grafted on, and at different frequencies from AM radio, of course.

What I was describing was an interference pattern radar-like bounceback system, where the returned signal would look much like "noise", with data buried in the interference pattern generated in the reflection. It would be a passive device only (basically a very high resolution bar-code), thus it might be cheaper to manufacture and deploy while retaining much of the value of current RFID tags.

Even so, the likelyhood that it is an idea that is currently patented by other individual(s) is rather high...

Re:Disgusting

[tabrnaker]

To find the definition of sin you have to look where it's defined. Pretty easy eh?

Sin in the catholic church is evil. Sin in the bible and it's translation is something which COULD POTENTIONALY have a bad effect.

Same with being 'unclean', situations where it's possible to transmit diseases.

sigh, these discussions would make a hell of lot more sense if everybody just read the bible. It never ceases to amaze me how people can dismiss something without knowing what it's about, or argue against it with no direct knowledge of what they're arguing against!

Re:Disgusting

[tabrnaker]

um, yes, scientific study ==faith. Any good scientist knows that. We have faith that the results will stick to the theory. A good scientist knows that science can certainly make good predications about reality, but it can never touch truth.

Re:Disgusting

[twray]

Yes. Is that so bad? Geez, as humans we're supposed to be curious. Yes, read about Scientology. Talk to one. Call Tom Cruise. Learn the history and current practices, rituals, requirements and tenents. Then make a decision. This applies to anything including Nazi's, operating systems, red-heads & "I can't believe it's not butter!(tm)". You're not allowed to say you're bored until you know everything. Get back to me when you're done.

Re:Disgusting

[Some_Llama]

"IANA Biblical scholar, but I don't think they know who said that piece. The whole woman-taken-in-adultery episode is missing from early manuscripts, and many consider it inauthentic."

Whent he catholic church was deciding whether or not a book was authentic enough to be included in the "offical Canon of the new testament" they made the decisions by comparing the different texts of the different books, and which ones were held up or supported by other texts and/or the old testament...

I believe the passage you are referring to only existed in one of the 4 books (mark matthew luke john) but jived witht he rest of the new testament and thus was decided to be kept... I read something about this in one of my bibles which give insights into some of the passages as a footnote... so it might not be exactly what they were saying but it is close.. the passage was seen in one/some of the writings but not all of them, so there was some contention about it's authenticity.

Re:Disgusting

[Some_Llama]

"It never ceases to amaze me how people can dismiss something without knowing what it's about, or argue against it with no direct knowledge of what they're arguing against!"

Amen, it should be required that in order to post an argument for or against the Bible or any religon, you have to at least RTFM!!!

*dreams*

Re:Disgusting

[jdwoods]

Robert Heinlein wrote in The Notebooks of Lazarus Long (taken from interludes in his novel, Time Enough For Love):

Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful--just stupid.)

Re: what sin is

[seventhapex]

You cannot define sin without acknowladging The one true God of isreal and real christianity, Morality and Sin are two competely different things. Sin is only defined in the Holy bible and the Tora (the first 6 books of the old testiments)... Mass media has totally juped everyone regarding this word. You hear it in asian films referencing morality. Most of the world has no idea what the word sin means. It means "seperated from God" nothing more. it's a huge mistake to say "I have comitted sin" You can be cought up in sin "seperation from God". Sin is the effect not the cause. So you can't define sin and omit God "the isreal Christian God" you can however Omit Allah, Budda, Zuse, ect. Morality however is proof of a central universal balance. it's up to us individually to figure out what that balance is.

Re: what sin is

[mink]

Vishnu says otherwise.