Sometimes I really hate/. The sheep writing post-after-post about the gold-digging intentions of Christopher Tolkien when they don't have a friggin clue....
Agreed, but Tolkien purposefully left loose ends. This, he knew, made the reader... read. He knew it empowered the story. Tom, of all things, is the most loose of all ends. There just about every possible explanation for who he is including Eru, or the primary god himself. I highly recommend that massive page I linked before considered the authoritative source on TB.
But we can all see his conclusion, and your attempt to refute his method of obtaining the answer without challenging the answer itself is further evidence that you do, in fact, bless communism.
I love The Silmarillion. It is actually my 2nd favorite book of Tolkien's after the Hobbit. I prefer LoTR 3rd. And/or, really, I would say 4th after UT.
I really love the movies. But, when first I heard they were actually making 'em, my first thought was fear. I was afraid they would screw it up. Nice it was they did not, but exceeded expectations.
Still, one minor thing that bothers me -- not too big a deal -- is how people tend to think the movie is the book. I think it was a quote on/. that said, "never judge a book by its movie." This is never more truer than with LoTR or Tolkien's work.
The movies are simply that and nothing more. They are not the books. They are another person's interpretation of the books. Frankly, as I'm sure you know, Tolkien's official opinion on dramaticizing the books was a resounding "no!" They are "uniquely unfit for a drama," I think he said.
So, when people make statements that Tom didn't fit that is a post-movie statement. I don't ever remember hearing much of that -- if at all -- before the movies. Now, it seems Tom is fighting to remain a part of the story. But, indeed, if we consider the work itself, and that Tom is there and integral, then we are done with the matter....
Good luck finding their utopia for children. I think if you compare the life of a child in an industrialized country today, to centuries past (child labor abuse, etc.) -- heck, even to other children in underprivileged countries, I think a little video gaming is not that bad....
Actually, I'm prejudiced about just about anything and a rather bitter, negative person. It comes with age (almost 40), experiences (divorce) and I've "heard" (hopefully) being slightly intelligent....
To the person who wasted an admin point on that post: please read the instructions on mod points. There are plenty of good posts in this thread for you to push up instead of wasting one on a post that wasn't meant to be that big a deal anyhow. Seriously, why?
When I have mod points, and when I use them, I always go to older news articles in the same day, browse for good posts that made it late into the thread, and try to push them up. I think that better fits the intension of the system.
Wasting a point on a post that had no points to start with is not good.
This truly boggles the mind. I work at a large corporation and watch/put up with insanity every day. It seems, at times, that the higher up you go the more insane things are. The old tale of "The Emporer's New Clothes," where insanity leads to a king walking naked down the streets, and only a child can see the truth, applies greatly.
I could write volumes on things that have happened in my career, but this HP debacle takes the cake. And the thing is, they feel entirely in their rights while they were doing it, after they were doing it and on up until they realized that they really had to explain themselves. They are confessing now because they got caught, not because they really felt it to be wrong. Thus are the ills of capitalism.
As a wise man once said: "Capitalism is the notion that evil men, doing evil things, will bring about the greatest good...." Or something to that effect....
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in essence, this is the boss attaining your private information -- stuff of yours that's yours, outside of your work, and stuff that you had no say whenever they got it.
It's one thing when the government abuses power (patriot act, federal investigators prosecuting if you lie to them, but they can lie to you to also charge with a crime), but it's another when, now, "the man" is doing it. What's next? Paying you in company notes instead of real money -- where you can only shop at "the company store?" This whole incident opens up a huge can and everyone who participated should be promptly fired....
Changes in the law have made liquidation under Chapter 7 much more difficult: Bankruptcy filings fall to lowest level in 5 years
Yep. And health care is more expensive than ever. And gas is more expensive than ever. And lenders at car lots can loan money to people who shouldn't be getting a loan easier than ever. And the minimum wage is lower than ever. And labor is less represented and able to help the working man than ever. And now housing is falling, so the only asset most folks have who don't have anything is worth less and less. And college is more expensive than ever. Etc., etc., etc....
So, basically, the common man with a wife and kids who could have a 3 bedroom home, one new car and support all of that on the minimum wage 50 years ago can't dream of the same today. No, indeed, "the man" will loan him money he can never repay and now the only thing he ever had to have any hope of finanical security -- bankruptcy -- is now gone too.
They should have left bankruptcy where it was and changed the laws on lending money. But, hey, that wouldn't've helped the money being paid to re-elect the dudes running this country that they gather from the people who own the companies that lend money.... Credit card companies, for instance, are one of the most unregulated industries in the country. Every 18 year old kid who shouldn't be getting it is given 10s of 1000s of dollars worth of credit card applications every day.
So, when they changed bankruptcy law, they should have named it The SITTLGALM Act: "Stick it to the little guy a little more."
Why is congress getting involved? Isn't this area sufficiently covered by state and federal law that they can leave it up to an Attorney General somewhere?
Congress is federal.
Also, and I've only read the blurbs, if it is true that HP attained private phone records that's fairly huge and well-worthy of the biggest attention. It's one thing when the government does it -- which rightly always a topic on/., but now your boss? What's next? Getting paid with factory notes like they did circa early 20th cent.?
The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, The Unbeliever was actually the series I read first, as a pre-teen. I was really sucked in by those monstrous books. When I read Tolkien, I realized how horribly Steven R. Donaldson had ripped on Tolkien. I mean, it was bad. I then realized that all modern fantasy writers do pretty much the same thing. On the back of the first book of the Jordan series (Wheel of Time) they actually put a comment by a critic who states Jordan expands on Tolkien's genre. I guess they realized that it's best to just admit the unescapable influence of Tolkien instead of trying to act like they are doing something new.
This says nothing of every RPG/MMOG that has mithril and orcs, etc. I played EQ for years. I loved it, but was always miffed by the entire lack of credit to Tolkien. Even Mickey Mouse has his law and can demand credit....
Second, Tom is able with ease to use the ring in ways that were not intended by its maker, for he is able to make the ring itself disappear.
Checking these facts myself as I hate getting it wrong, but I swear it does say, in the book, that he makes it disappear. Further, the great page on Bombadil states the same....
Linked from Glyphweb. Their Arda Encyclopedia is the best source, IMO, for Tolkien:
Note the, "Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron,".
I think the point here isn't that Tom would be conquered. He simply would be done with the world and move on. Tom is, indeed, powerful. He is, most assuredly, the most powerful being in ME. Some argue that he is Eru himself....
Interesting point on Merry's sword vs. the Witch King. I never made that connection before.
The thing about Tom is his mysterious nature. My initial forays into the Internet, in the early 90s, was to discuss Tolkien and I specifically remember the early and best dialogues concerning Bombadil. I have often thought that he is one of the most, if not the most, discussed aspect of ME on the Internet.
Tolkien knew the power of the unfinished tale (no pun), and indeed made a doosey in Bombadil. To read about Tom in LoTR is to not get bogged down by his appearance or nonsensical nature. It is instead to realize that these mask an incredibly powerful being, of great mystery, who is embedded in the mythos of Tolkien. Tolkien was no dummy, and knew exactly what he was doing when having Gandalf answer the question of who Bombadil was with "he is" (akin to the "Yahweh" of Judaism). I think Tolkien very cleverly added aspects from Norse & other religions into his work as George Lucas, and others, have learned to do.
Tom carries incredible influence over everything around him, and is the only being to not only NOT be tempted by the ring, but to actually play with it and even, inversely, make the ring itself disappear (to which he laughs). If all else were to fall to Sauran, Gandalf explains, there would be only Tom, "he was the first and will be the last" (alpha/omega reference?). (I'm pulling these quotes off my head, but they should be 99% accurate.
Others see Tom as a nature spirit or with other meaning, but the point should be that he marries the LoTR to the greater cosmology. Leaving him out of the movies has almost elevated his mystery IMO. I think it was a good move all around.
I certainly do not remember him being in The Hobbit, and although I've not read The Hobbit in years, I have read it a half dozen times. Still, I've learned the hard way on making pronouncements about Tolkien's works -- so avid are the fans as even Ebert pointed out....
Informative? Yes, on Tom not being in the Hobbit. A resounding "No!" on Tom as lame (of course, I think I'm eating troll bait here).
As I explained above, Tom was not necessary to the telling of LoTR & Jackson can be forgiven for not including him. He is irreplaceable to the cosmology -- that primary effort of Tolkien wherein is found LoTR, The Hobbit, et al.
Such statements as you make reveal that you assume LoTR was Tolkien's main effort. It was not. He wanted, and indeed first did, create a cosmology wherein he placed a history and languages and then, oh yes, he decided it needed some stories and thus you have LoTR, The Hobbit, etc.,... almost as an afterthought.
This is why Tolkien is so rich and so landmark and arguably the creator of an entire genre -- modern fantasy (yes, yes, my English prof & I argued on that point, but he was responsible, if nothing else, for publishing fantasy abroad and birthing the modern form of it).
The main reason LoTR has such staying power is the layers underneath, and these layers are language built on history built on cosmology (and mythos). Lucky you are if you read other fantasy writer's beforehand. I messed up and made Tolkien my 2nd journey into fantasy as a teenager (I'm now near 40). I cannot enjoy any other fantasy now. It all goes back to Tolkien & so do I (ok, ok, Jordan is good stuff too)....
As one friend told me, "I really messed up and read Tolkien first, now I can't stand those other books."
As I explained to a friend who argued _for_ the removal of Tom from the movies: he is not essential to the story (i.e., LoTR). He is irreplacable to the cosmology -- Tolkien's primary, encompassing effort wherein LoTR, The Hobbit, and everything else finds itself....
I'm a big netflix fan. I got into it in order to re-watch the entire xfiles series last year. I also like the story of its origins: someone finally got sick of ridiculous late-fee charges, and in answer, blockbuster lost mega business. Blockbuster countered with its own service which I thought was not doing well against netflix. This latest news seems to indicate otherwise.
But netflix using patent laws this way is crazy. Blockbuster should counter with the charge that they own the ability to perform the action of receiving monetary units for analogue and digital copies of light and audio produced theatrical and documentary events....
Slashdot Mirror
Please give this man one more mod point up and complete his "5" so that the universe will make sense. He is spot on....
Good points all.
/. The sheep writing post-after-post about the gold-digging intentions of Christopher Tolkien when they don't have a friggin clue....
Sometimes I really hate
And getting modded up!
If others can write books based on Tolkien's work, why can't Christopher?
Hi, this is the dam tour. I'm your dam guide. Let me know if you got any dam questions.
You got any damn bait?
Agreed, but Tolkien purposefully left loose ends. This, he knew, made the reader ... read. He knew it empowered the story. Tom, of all things, is the most loose of all ends. There just about every possible explanation for who he is including Eru, or the primary god himself. I highly recommend that massive page I linked before considered the authoritative source on TB.
But we can all see his conclusion, and your attempt to refute his method of obtaining the answer without challenging the answer itself is further evidence that you do, in fact, bless communism.
Your name isn't Vicini is it?
Good dialogue.
/. that said, "never judge a book by its movie." This is never more truer than with LoTR or Tolkien's work.
I love The Silmarillion. It is actually my 2nd favorite book of Tolkien's after the Hobbit. I prefer LoTR 3rd. And/or, really, I would say 4th after UT.
I really love the movies. But, when first I heard they were actually making 'em, my first thought was fear. I was afraid they would screw it up. Nice it was they did not, but exceeded expectations.
Still, one minor thing that bothers me -- not too big a deal -- is how people tend to think the movie is the book. I think it was a quote on
The movies are simply that and nothing more. They are not the books. They are another person's interpretation of the books. Frankly, as I'm sure you know, Tolkien's official opinion on dramaticizing the books was a resounding "no!" They are "uniquely unfit for a drama," I think he said.
So, when people make statements that Tom didn't fit that is a post-movie statement. I don't ever remember hearing much of that -- if at all -- before the movies. Now, it seems Tom is fighting to remain a part of the story. But, indeed, if we consider the work itself, and that Tom is there and integral, then we are done with the matter....
...
uuaah, my head asplode.
Good luck finding their utopia for children. I think if you compare the life of a child in an industrialized country today, to centuries past (child labor abuse, etc.) -- heck, even to other children in underprivileged countries, I think a little video gaming is not that bad....
Nice Churchill quote. Good points you make.
Actually, I'm prejudiced about just about anything and a rather bitter, negative person. It comes with age (almost 40), experiences (divorce) and I've "heard" (hopefully) being slightly intelligent....
Me faulting capitalism does not equal me blessing communism. Your logic set is flawed....
100% Overrated
/Forgive-off-topic
To the person who wasted an admin point on that post: please read the instructions on mod points. There are plenty of good posts in this thread for you to push up instead of wasting one on a post that wasn't meant to be that big a deal anyhow. Seriously, why?
When I have mod points, and when I use them, I always go to older news articles in the same day, browse for good posts that made it late into the thread, and try to push them up. I think that better fits the intension of the system.
Wasting a point on a post that had no points to start with is not good.
This truly boggles the mind. I work at a large corporation and watch/put up with insanity every day. It seems, at times, that the higher up you go the more insane things are. The old tale of "The Emporer's New Clothes," where insanity leads to a king walking naked down the streets, and only a child can see the truth, applies greatly.
I could write volumes on things that have happened in my career, but this HP debacle takes the cake. And the thing is, they feel entirely in their rights while they were doing it, after they were doing it and on up until they realized that they really had to explain themselves. They are confessing now because they got caught, not because they really felt it to be wrong. Thus are the ills of capitalism.
As a wise man once said: "Capitalism is the notion that evil men, doing evil things, will bring about the greatest good...." Or something to that effect....
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in essence, this is the boss attaining your private information -- stuff of yours that's yours, outside of your work, and stuff that you had no say whenever they got it.
It's one thing when the government abuses power (patriot act, federal investigators prosecuting if you lie to them, but they can lie to you to also charge with a crime), but it's another when, now, "the man" is doing it. What's next? Paying you in company notes instead of real money -- where you can only shop at "the company store?" This whole incident opens up a huge can and everyone who participated should be promptly fired....
Say hello to 1920....
Changes in the law have made liquidation under Chapter 7 much more difficult: Bankruptcy filings fall to lowest level in 5 years
Yep. And health care is more expensive than ever. And gas is more expensive than ever. And lenders at car lots can loan money to people who shouldn't be getting a loan easier than ever. And the minimum wage is lower than ever. And labor is less represented and able to help the working man than ever. And now housing is falling, so the only asset most folks have who don't have anything is worth less and less. And college is more expensive than ever. Etc., etc., etc....
So, basically, the common man with a wife and kids who could have a 3 bedroom home, one new car and support all of that on the minimum wage 50 years ago can't dream of the same today. No, indeed, "the man" will loan him money he can never repay and now the only thing he ever had to have any hope of finanical security -- bankruptcy -- is now gone too.
They should have left bankruptcy where it was and changed the laws on lending money. But, hey, that wouldn't've helped the money being paid to re-elect the dudes running this country that they gather from the people who own the companies that lend money.... Credit card companies, for instance, are one of the most unregulated industries in the country. Every 18 year old kid who shouldn't be getting it is given 10s of 1000s of dollars worth of credit card applications every day.
So, when they changed bankruptcy law, they should have named it The SITTLGALM Act: "Stick it to the little guy a little more."
Why is congress getting involved? Isn't this area sufficiently covered by state and federal law that they can leave it up to an Attorney General somewhere?
/., but now your boss? What's next? Getting paid with factory notes like they did circa early 20th cent.?
Congress is federal.
Also, and I've only read the blurbs, if it is true that HP attained private phone records that's fairly huge and well-worthy of the biggest attention. It's one thing when the government does it -- which rightly always a topic on
The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, The Unbeliever was actually the series I read first, as a pre-teen. I was really sucked in by those monstrous books. When I read Tolkien, I realized how horribly Steven R. Donaldson had ripped on Tolkien. I mean, it was bad. I then realized that all modern fantasy writers do pretty much the same thing. On the back of the first book of the Jordan series (Wheel of Time) they actually put a comment by a critic who states Jordan expands on Tolkien's genre. I guess they realized that it's best to just admit the unescapable influence of Tolkien instead of trying to act like they are doing something new.
This says nothing of every RPG/MMOG that has mithril and orcs, etc. I played EQ for years. I loved it, but was always miffed by the entire lack of credit to Tolkien. Even Mickey Mouse has his law and can demand credit....
Second, Tom is able with ease to use the ring in ways that were not intended by its maker, for he is able to make the ring itself disappear.
Checking these facts myself as I hate getting it wrong, but I swear it does say, in the book, that he makes it disappear. Further, the great page on Bombadil states the same....
Who is Tom Bombadil?
"The Last as he was the First" (Rings, 1:279)
From Who Is Tom Bombadil
Linked from Glyphweb. Their Arda Encyclopedia is the best source, IMO, for Tolkien:
Note the, "Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron,".
I think the point here isn't that Tom would be conquered. He simply would be done with the world and move on. Tom is, indeed, powerful. He is, most assuredly, the most powerful being in ME. Some argue that he is Eru himself....
Interesting point on Merry's sword vs. the Witch King. I never made that connection before.
The thing about Tom is his mysterious nature. My initial forays into the Internet, in the early 90s, was to discuss Tolkien and I specifically remember the early and best dialogues concerning Bombadil. I have often thought that he is one of the most, if not the most, discussed aspect of ME on the Internet.
Tolkien knew the power of the unfinished tale (no pun), and indeed made a doosey in Bombadil. To read about Tom in LoTR is to not get bogged down by his appearance or nonsensical nature. It is instead to realize that these mask an incredibly powerful being, of great mystery, who is embedded in the mythos of Tolkien. Tolkien was no dummy, and knew exactly what he was doing when having Gandalf answer the question of who Bombadil was with "he is" (akin to the "Yahweh" of Judaism). I think Tolkien very cleverly added aspects from Norse & other religions into his work as George Lucas, and others, have learned to do.
Tom carries incredible influence over everything around him, and is the only being to not only NOT be tempted by the ring, but to actually play with it and even, inversely, make the ring itself disappear (to which he laughs). If all else were to fall to Sauran, Gandalf explains, there would be only Tom, "he was the first and will be the last" (alpha/omega reference?). (I'm pulling these quotes off my head, but they should be 99% accurate.
Others see Tom as a nature spirit or with other meaning, but the point should be that he marries the LoTR to the greater cosmology. Leaving him out of the movies has almost elevated his mystery IMO. I think it was a good move all around.
I certainly do not remember him being in The Hobbit, and although I've not read The Hobbit in years, I have read it a half dozen times. Still, I've learned the hard way on making pronouncements about Tolkien's works -- so avid are the fans as even Ebert pointed out....
Informative? Yes, on Tom not being in the Hobbit. A resounding "No!" on Tom as lame (of course, I think I'm eating troll bait here).
... almost as an afterthought.
As I explained above, Tom was not necessary to the telling of LoTR & Jackson can be forgiven for not including him. He is irreplaceable to the cosmology -- that primary effort of Tolkien wherein is found LoTR, The Hobbit, et al.
Such statements as you make reveal that you assume LoTR was Tolkien's main effort. It was not. He wanted, and indeed first did, create a cosmology wherein he placed a history and languages and then, oh yes, he decided it needed some stories and thus you have LoTR, The Hobbit, etc.,
This is why Tolkien is so rich and so landmark and arguably the creator of an entire genre -- modern fantasy (yes, yes, my English prof & I argued on that point, but he was responsible, if nothing else, for publishing fantasy abroad and birthing the modern form of it).
The main reason LoTR has such staying power is the layers underneath, and these layers are language built on history built on cosmology (and mythos). Lucky you are if you read other fantasy writer's beforehand. I messed up and made Tolkien my 2nd journey into fantasy as a teenager (I'm now near 40). I cannot enjoy any other fantasy now. It all goes back to Tolkien & so do I (ok, ok, Jordan is good stuff too)....
As one friend told me, "I really messed up and read Tolkien first, now I can't stand those other books."
As I explained to a friend who argued _for_ the removal of Tom from the movies: he is not essential to the story (i.e., LoTR). He is irreplacable to the cosmology -- Tolkien's primary, encompassing effort wherein LoTR, The Hobbit, and everything else finds itself....
It was a newt!... It's not now ... but it was....
I'm a big netflix fan. I got into it in order to re-watch the entire xfiles series last year. I also like the story of its origins: someone finally got sick of ridiculous late-fee charges, and in answer, blockbuster lost mega business. Blockbuster countered with its own service which I thought was not doing well against netflix. This latest news seems to indicate otherwise.
But netflix using patent laws this way is crazy. Blockbuster should counter with the charge that they own the ability to perform the action of receiving monetary units for analogue and digital copies of light and audio produced theatrical and documentary events....