What a ludicrous comment. Was the effort a nice one? Sure, I guess you could say that.
Does it mean it was good? Nope. Do you often go purchase dvd that you know have good intentions but come out terribly and say, "Oh well, the whole thing may have been stupid and contrived, but damn, they tried hard, so it was still worth it!"
If you're going to try and make a game with philosophic ideals behind it, you better damn well make sure you know what the hell you're talking about. You want to know what MGS2 is like in geek terms? Remember that movie Hackers, and how unintentionally hillarious it was at how bad and inaccurate the whole movie was to anyone with a clue? THAT'S MGS2.
In other words, if you're going for bang-whiz entertainment, go full throttle and no one will judge you against heavy duty philosophic pretentions. For example, Splinter Cell never said they were about anything but a fun, conspiracy-bent stealth game, which is why we DON'T bitch about its story (it's just a fun jaunt). MGS2, on the other hand, tries to wax philosophical at EVERY SINGLE CUTSCENE and fails *miserably* trying to tell us how profound our lives are. It's not just trying to be mindless and entertaining, it's trying to say something meaningful... and it completely misses the mark. Therefore, you judge it on a completely different scale. If you still don't grasp the concept of comparing apples to oranges, this thread will never end.
Try not to get your panties in a bunch simply because a bunch of realize that MGS2 was a poor excuse for a game, with a half-assed pathetic plot.
Hahahaha! No offense, but if you think MGS2's story was deep, you haven't read very much literature.
Let me explain. MGS2 attempted to take an almost nihilistic view and mix it with post-modernism (someone else mentioned that as well). For someone that doesn't know much about either, the story probably seems interesting... however anyone with a remote handling of the philosophical views Kojima was apparently trying to explore would laugh the game into oblivion (awful philosophic reference intended) at how convoluted and confused it mixed various schools of thought into a not very satisfying plot. Not only that, but the same thing us repeated over, and over, and over, AND OVER, as if we didn't get it the first 20 times.
It only supports my opinions more when you say that you can't seem to grasp the deep storyline in Soul Calibur because it's shown through "simplistic" methods. Maybe you ARE Kojima's unintended target audience; someone who needs ideas and views pounded into their head over and over until they submit.
And don't tell me I can't appreciate a game with a lot of cinemas. Once again, I'll point to the Panxer Dragoon series, Panzer Dragoon Saga in particular. The game was literally made up 50% of cutscenes, but it easily had one of the coolest stories ever, and one you could appreciate on a bunch of levels... everything from a love story to about 4 distinctly different philosophical schools, to a good vs. evil plot in on direction (and nothing but grey vs grey in another), to... well, it goes on. Did I mention that the gameplay did not suffer because of overly zealous and tedious banter?
I suggest reading some books on philosophy, then playing MGS2 again - the stuff you thought was profound previously will subsequently have you gaping at the TV wondering if Kojima took an intro to philosophy class and got Kant, Sarte, and Kierkegaard mixed up.
Unfortunately, the MGS2 story was terrible, which made the cutscenes that much more worse. Tell a story, fine, but a good editor is in order as well!
On top of that, the gameplay was very subpar , mainly *because* of the cutscenes that kept interrupting it. I find it ironic that you mention Soul Calibur, as the character development and backstory throughtout the series has been staggering, yet it feels nothing like a movie.
A well done story with plenty of depth doesn't need a crapload of cinemas (though they can help if implemented correctly. Ever played Rez? Any Panzer Dragoon game?
If a parent teaches their kid about morals, gray areas, why some things are considered right and why some are considered wrong, as well as take an active role in seeing what influences their kids to open up avenues of possible discussion later (video games, movies, tv, etc), then the child will most likely grow up to be well balanced enough to know that something like Manhunt *is* just a game.
For example, my parents never gave out blanket statements that "DRUGS ARE BAD - DON'T DO THEM!" Instead, when the subject came up, they would point out examples of drug abuse and out of control behavior, as well as why people ended up going in that direction. They pointed out exactly what made abusing drugs a danger and what the consequences were. So whenever the opportunity comes up to do whatever, I may still be curious, but I also know what the potential end result might be, and judgement calls come into play. It was never preachy stuff - it was just them being honest, and it worked wonders beyond saying "STAY AWAY!!!!" which we all knows just makes people want to do things more.
The problem is when parents just let their kids lose, don't pay any attention to what they're partaking in, and blindly buy them movies and games without even talking about the more controversial types (such as Manhunt) with them.
Video games are just like any other part of parenting - you're supposed to communicate with your kids and put things in context. Is this easy? Hell no. But no one said parenting was supposed to be easy in the first place.
...at the moment. I am optimistic that it will change, but there's always the danger of it being niche'd to death.
I am surrounded by bohemian types - writers, actors, all sorts of artists... and everyone's always doing one of two things; either 1) trying to get as close as they can to perfect in their medium (either through traditional or very untraditional ways) or 2) trying to find a new, original medium. Machiniama is interesting because the idea isn't new, but the implementation is.
The problem is we need something a bit more serious... something with real emotional investment (the stuff mentioned in the interview seems to be heading towards that). While redvsblue can be funny, there's only so much you can do with a bunch of guys swearing every other word, coming up with dialog that becomes repetitive and formulaic, and scenes that smack of the MTV school of "filmmaking" transposed onto a virtual environment. It's a new medium with plenty of room for exploration; now that the tried and true has been worked through, some people need to start embracing its intrinsic properties and turn them into art. And I don't mean that they have to be epic tales of loss and destiny, or heavy handed conversations about the nature of life; a piece of work can be great with humor, with violence, and with plenty of vulgarity (Pulp Fiction springs to mind); the key is in the charaterizations and the investment viewers inevitably put into what they're watching.
At the moment, 95% of machiniama looks and sounds like it's made by geeks who may be technically minded, but not very creatively inclined. In other words, the stuff looks like a video game, and is a lot less interesting than it could be.
that Richard Garriott is a complete tool? Now I fully credit him with creating a great set of games, however the extent as to which he BELIEVES himself to really be Lord British borders on psychotic. And my god, couldn't he have at least picked a better name? Lord British sounds like something an idiot would come up with to sound old, royal, gothic, regal, and middle agean. It's like if someone from the UK made a cowboy shooting game and named the main character "Cowboy American".
If anyone has a link to that story where all those brits look at him like a complete fool as he struts around overseas trying to portray lord british, i'd love to see it.
omg, you know NOTHING about japanese culture or attitudes regarding brand loyalty (you've simply stated a very dumb, american-popularized pov). The fact is that nobody buys the Xbox because as you said, there are hardly any games tailored to Japanese video gamers' tastes. The poor sales of the Xbox in Japan being and end with that simple reason, not blind love of japanese companies.
I am a closet GC fan...
While I agree that pushing a more grown-up view of their image would be beneficial, Nintendo by no means needs it; they have deep, deep, DEEP pockets, and even in their current state, they could go on for a very long time (this is no Sega situation; while Sega was just as good a producer as Nintendo, they were much less business savvy). Meanwhile, the rest of us who actually know about the games and how they play clamor around Nintendo and how great they are, because... well, they are.
Maybe you should get a backbone and stop worrying about what other people think when you play video games (of all things!), being 24 and all.
...what males are looking for, which is action, fighting, and girls.
Please go back to playing your PS2 and Xbox. Gamers look for *good gameplay*, not silly fetish quests (ie DOAXBV) or fun-for-five-minute games (GTA). Also, note that there aren't that many great fighting games out there to begin with as of late: possibly Virtua Fighter 4 Evo, DOA 3 (debateable), and Soul Calibur 2 (don't even bother mentioning Tekken).
While there are plenty of good games on other consoles, Nintendo's TREMENDOUS pull has been the fact that a majority of their games that come out for their systems literally STAY there, because those games are first party games. I consider it worth it just for that; so do many other people. Since your tastes obviously drift towards the mainstream mindless, why are you even bothering with the GCN?
This whole comment's last shred of validty goes out the window you mention Eidos leaving as a bad thing.
Sega... behind what? They don't make hardware (and when they did, you can't say their last console was behind the times), and their software is considered to be on par with Nintendo's in originality.
Oh please. Have you seen how many people currently play on the DC servers? A whopping 14 total last time I checked the US servers for fun. 14. The GCN and XB versions have magnitudes more people than that. Note that Sega even kept the DC PSO servers running *AFTER* they shut down 95% of the other DC online game servers, and even then, the population was tiny.
The reason they're shutting it down is for practical reasons. If they were still making $$ off of v2 hunter licenses, you'd bet your ass the thing would still be plugged in.
Mormonism? Being a mormon buff (don't ask), can I ask you for some references to that particular idea? I wasn't exactly a BSG fan and never really paid much attention to it (I do have the basic idea down), so I'm curious as to how it fits together.
Hmm, not having played any of those games on my PS2, I had no idea they used DTS instead of DD, which seems kind of backwards since I would've thought DD would take less processing power.
I know what DPL2 is, and even have it on my Denon preamp. I've used it once, and seen it in action a few times (mostly on a GCN), but the effects are subtle at best, it seems, and I've calibrated my speaker set for optimal seperation.
I wholeheartedly agree. Half of the praise GTA3 got was from the whole shock value aspect. And while there was some innovation in the open-endedness, it really don't go anywhere. Frankly, GTA3 is barely a step above POSTAL to me - a game hyped on controversey that didn't really deliver.
One of the most annoying things yes... try Daemon Tools and keep a CD image repository on your server. Works with every game I've had so far (though a few need a little tweaking), including the really really new SecureROM version.
Unfortunately, Sega has done this for years, and it's done nothing but make the mainstream think they have 'weird' games and contribute to them dropping out of the console hardware business.
Nintendo is just like Sega, with a bit more marketing savvy and a nice cash cow (the GBA) to help things along Of course, like Sega, they are also getting lumped into that "games for the hardcore but eh response from everyone else" group. Meanwhile, the PS2 and the Xbox garner the biggest mainstream attention. While certain games warrant this attention for those platforms, it is not proportional to the amount of originality found on the GCN, or even the Dreamcast.
So while if you build it, they will come is a nice dream, it's just that - a pipe dream. Dream field. Field of dreams. Er... Whatever.
Here's a tip for electronics makers. A phone that dosn't suck, plays stereo mp3+Ogg+FM radio, uses CF not SD, bluetooth and java games I can write/manage myself - I'm in again...
I think despite the fact that SD is more closed, they use it for the easier power requirements compared to CF.
Well, so can the Xbox. Run linux I mean. And despite the fact that you need to mod your box, the Xbox linux distros are much more useful than the "Gee, it's cool to pay $200 for a sandbox-ed version of Kondara!" PS2 version
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What a ludicrous comment. Was the effort a nice one? Sure, I guess you could say that.
Does it mean it was good? Nope. Do you often go purchase dvd that you know have good intentions but come out terribly and say, "Oh well, the whole thing may have been stupid and contrived, but damn, they tried hard, so it was still worth it!"
If you're going to try and make a game with philosophic ideals behind it, you better damn well make sure you know what the hell you're talking about. You want to know what MGS2 is like in geek terms? Remember that movie Hackers, and how unintentionally hillarious it was at how bad and inaccurate the whole movie was to anyone with a clue? THAT'S MGS2.
In other words, if you're going for bang-whiz entertainment, go full throttle and no one will judge you against heavy duty philosophic pretentions. For example, Splinter Cell never said they were about anything but a fun, conspiracy-bent stealth game, which is why we DON'T bitch about its story (it's just a fun jaunt). MGS2, on the other hand, tries to wax philosophical at EVERY SINGLE CUTSCENE and fails *miserably* trying to tell us how profound our lives are. It's not just trying to be mindless and entertaining, it's trying to say something meaningful... and it completely misses the mark. Therefore, you judge it on a completely different scale. If you still don't grasp the concept of comparing apples to oranges, this thread will never end.
Try not to get your panties in a bunch simply because a bunch of realize that MGS2 was a poor excuse for a game, with a half-assed pathetic plot.
Hahahaha! No offense, but if you think MGS2's story was deep, you haven't read very much literature.
Let me explain. MGS2 attempted to take an almost nihilistic view and mix it with post-modernism (someone else mentioned that as well). For someone that doesn't know much about either, the story probably seems interesting... however anyone with a remote handling of the philosophical views Kojima was apparently trying to explore would laugh the game into oblivion (awful philosophic reference intended) at how convoluted and confused it mixed various schools of thought into a not very satisfying plot. Not only that, but the same thing us repeated over, and over, and over, AND OVER, as if we didn't get it the first 20 times.
It only supports my opinions more when you say that you can't seem to grasp the deep storyline in Soul Calibur because it's shown through "simplistic" methods. Maybe you ARE Kojima's unintended target audience; someone who needs ideas and views pounded into their head over and over until they submit.
And don't tell me I can't appreciate a game with a lot of cinemas. Once again, I'll point to the Panxer Dragoon series, Panzer Dragoon Saga in particular. The game was literally made up 50% of cutscenes, but it easily had one of the coolest stories ever, and one you could appreciate on a bunch of levels... everything from a love story to about 4 distinctly different philosophical schools, to a good vs. evil plot in on direction (and nothing but grey vs grey in another), to... well, it goes on. Did I mention that the gameplay did not suffer because of overly zealous and tedious banter?
I suggest reading some books on philosophy, then playing MGS2 again - the stuff you thought was profound previously will subsequently have you gaping at the TV wondering if Kojima took an intro to philosophy class and got Kant, Sarte, and Kierkegaard mixed up.
Unfortunately, the MGS2 story was terrible, which made the cutscenes that much more worse. Tell a story, fine, but a good editor is in order as well!
On top of that, the gameplay was very subpar , mainly *because* of the cutscenes that kept interrupting it. I find it ironic that you mention Soul Calibur, as the character development and backstory throughtout the series has been staggering, yet it feels nothing like a movie.
A well done story with plenty of depth doesn't need a crapload of cinemas (though they can help if implemented correctly. Ever played Rez? Any Panzer Dragoon game?
er, typo - "let their kids loose", not lose :)
It's a bit more complicated than that.
If a parent teaches their kid about morals, gray areas, why some things are considered right and why some are considered wrong, as well as take an active role in seeing what influences their kids to open up avenues of possible discussion later (video games, movies, tv, etc), then the child will most likely grow up to be well balanced enough to know that something like Manhunt *is* just a game.
For example, my parents never gave out blanket statements that "DRUGS ARE BAD - DON'T DO THEM!" Instead, when the subject came up, they would point out examples of drug abuse and out of control behavior, as well as why people ended up going in that direction. They pointed out exactly what made abusing drugs a danger and what the consequences were. So whenever the opportunity comes up to do whatever, I may still be curious, but I also know what the potential end result might be, and judgement calls come into play. It was never preachy stuff - it was just them being honest, and it worked wonders beyond saying "STAY AWAY!!!!" which we all knows just makes people want to do things more.
The problem is when parents just let their kids lose, don't pay any attention to what they're partaking in, and blindly buy them movies and games without even talking about the more controversial types (such as Manhunt) with them.
Video games are just like any other part of parenting - you're supposed to communicate with your kids and put things in context. Is this easy? Hell no. But no one said parenting was supposed to be easy in the first place.
...at the moment. I am optimistic that it will change, but there's always the danger of it being niche'd to death.
I am surrounded by bohemian types - writers, actors, all sorts of artists... and everyone's always doing one of two things; either 1) trying to get as close as they can to perfect in their medium (either through traditional or very untraditional ways) or 2) trying to find a new, original medium. Machiniama is interesting because the idea isn't new, but the implementation is.
The problem is we need something a bit more serious... something with real emotional investment (the stuff mentioned in the interview seems to be heading towards that). While redvsblue can be funny, there's only so much you can do with a bunch of guys swearing every other word, coming up with dialog that becomes repetitive and formulaic, and scenes that smack of the MTV school of "filmmaking" transposed onto a virtual environment. It's a new medium with plenty of room for exploration; now that the tried and true has been worked through, some people need to start embracing its intrinsic properties and turn them into art. And I don't mean that they have to be epic tales of loss and destiny, or heavy handed conversations about the nature of life; a piece of work can be great with humor, with violence, and with plenty of vulgarity (Pulp Fiction springs to mind); the key is in the charaterizations and the investment viewers inevitably put into what they're watching.
At the moment, 95% of machiniama looks and sounds like it's made by geeks who may be technically minded, but not very creatively inclined. In other words, the stuff looks like a video game, and is a lot less interesting than it could be.
that Richard Garriott is a complete tool? Now I fully credit him with creating a great set of games, however the extent as to which he BELIEVES himself to really be Lord British borders on psychotic. And my god, couldn't he have at least picked a better name? Lord British sounds like something an idiot would come up with to sound old, royal, gothic, regal, and middle agean. It's like if someone from the UK made a cowboy shooting game and named the main character "Cowboy American".
If anyone has a link to that story where all those brits look at him like a complete fool as he struts around overseas trying to portray lord british, i'd love to see it.
omg, you know NOTHING about japanese culture or attitudes regarding brand loyalty (you've simply stated a very dumb, american-popularized pov). The fact is that nobody buys the Xbox because as you said, there are hardly any games tailored to Japanese video gamers' tastes. The poor sales of the Xbox in Japan being and end with that simple reason, not blind love of japanese companies.
I am a closet GC fan... While I agree that pushing a more grown-up view of their image would be beneficial, Nintendo by no means needs it; they have deep, deep, DEEP pockets, and even in their current state, they could go on for a very long time (this is no Sega situation; while Sega was just as good a producer as Nintendo, they were much less business savvy). Meanwhile, the rest of us who actually know about the games and how they play clamor around Nintendo and how great they are, because... well, they are.
Maybe you should get a backbone and stop worrying about what other people think when you play video games (of all things!), being 24 and all.
...what males are looking for, which is action, fighting, and girls.
Please go back to playing your PS2 and Xbox. Gamers look for *good gameplay*, not silly fetish quests (ie DOAXBV) or fun-for-five-minute games (GTA). Also, note that there aren't that many great fighting games out there to begin with as of late: possibly Virtua Fighter 4 Evo, DOA 3 (debateable), and Soul Calibur 2 (don't even bother mentioning Tekken).
While there are plenty of good games on other consoles, Nintendo's TREMENDOUS pull has been the fact that a majority of their games that come out for their systems literally STAY there, because those games are first party games. I consider it worth it just for that; so do many other people. Since your tastes obviously drift towards the mainstream mindless, why are you even bothering with the GCN?
This whole comment's last shred of validty goes out the window you mention Eidos leaving as a bad thing.
Sega... behind what? They don't make hardware (and when they did, you can't say their last console was behind the times), and their software is considered to be on par with Nintendo's in originality.
...mention of Sword of the Samurai?? Come on now.
Oh please. Have you seen how many people currently play on the DC servers? A whopping 14 total last time I checked the US servers for fun. 14. The GCN and XB versions have magnitudes more people than that. Note that Sega even kept the DC PSO servers running *AFTER* they shut down 95% of the other DC online game servers, and even then, the population was tiny.
The reason they're shutting it down is for practical reasons. If they were still making $$ off of v2 hunter licenses, you'd bet your ass the thing would still be plugged in.
Mormonism? Being a mormon buff (don't ask), can I ask you for some references to that particular idea? I wasn't exactly a BSG fan and never really paid much attention to it (I do have the basic idea down), so I'm curious as to how it fits together.
Hmm, not having played any of those games on my PS2, I had no idea they used DTS instead of DD, which seems kind of backwards since I would've thought DD would take less processing power.
I know what DPL2 is, and even have it on my Denon preamp. I've used it once, and seen it in action a few times (mostly on a GCN), but the effects are subtle at best, it seems, and I've calibrated my speaker set for optimal seperation.
No doubt he will be ripped to shreds on /.
I can't tell if this is meant in sarcasm, or just stupidity. Or maybe it's just stupid sarcasm.
I wholeheartedly agree. Half of the praise GTA3 got was from the whole shock value aspect. And while there was some innovation in the open-endedness, it really don't go anywhere. Frankly, GTA3 is barely a step above POSTAL to me - a game hyped on controversey that didn't really deliver.
They most likely mean Dolby Digital, the analog to DTS (and arguably inferior standard).
One of the most annoying things yes... try Daemon Tools and keep a CD image repository on your server. Works with every game I've had so far (though a few need a little tweaking), including the really really new SecureROM version.
Unfortunately, Sega has done this for years, and it's done nothing but make the mainstream think they have 'weird' games and contribute to them dropping out of the console hardware business.
Nintendo is just like Sega, with a bit more marketing savvy and a nice cash cow (the GBA) to help things along Of course, like Sega, they are also getting lumped into that "games for the hardcore but eh response from everyone else" group. Meanwhile, the PS2 and the Xbox garner the biggest mainstream attention. While certain games warrant this attention for those platforms, it is not proportional to the amount of originality found on the GCN, or even the Dreamcast.
So while if you build it, they will come is a nice dream, it's just that - a pipe dream. Dream field. Field of dreams. Er... Whatever.
Here's a tip for electronics makers. A phone that dosn't suck, plays stereo mp3+Ogg+FM radio, uses CF not SD, bluetooth and java games I can write/manage myself - I'm in again...
I think despite the fact that SD is more closed, they use it for the easier power requirements compared to CF.
Well, so can the Xbox. Run linux I mean. And despite the fact that you need to mod your box, the Xbox linux distros are much more useful than the "Gee, it's cool to pay $200 for a sandbox-ed version of Kondara!" PS2 version
Oh my god, did you just say 'orientals'??
Oh you may hate Magnolia (people either seem to be ravenous fans or not), but please, please, PLEASE don't put it in the same line as ARMAGEDDON!