Has Nintendo Lost Its Edge?

Thanks to GameSpy for their 'Spy/CounterSpy' editorial discussing whether Nintendo has lost its way in the increasingly competitive gaming world. On the one hand, an editor argues: "One of the few concrete things [Nintendo have] said is that the successor to GameCube is coming out sooner, rather than later, but what's the point if it's as lacking in software as its two predecessors? Or if the software is as samey as the current stuff?" But on the other, there's counterpoint and optimism: "In fact, it's the companies with lots of resources who are falling behind in the race who typically come up with the biggest and riskiest innovations. Given Nintendo's ability to create good hardware and its strategic position in the handheld space, that could mean some VERY cool things in the future."

Comments

Yes

[Mike Mentalist]

Personally, I think they have lost it.
Whilst their games used to be new and exciting, it is all the 'same old same old' these days. I am getting tired of endless games with Mario in them.

I do not find their games to be 'fun' anymore, as they are not much different to what they did before. I can enjoy 'fun' games still, and I can also enjoy more complex games like Civilisation and PC RPG's. Nintendos games do not fulfill either category for me anymore.

Re:Yes

[Snowspinner]

Endless games with Mario in them? For the Gamecube, that would be... let's see... Mario Golf, Mario Party 4, and Super Mario Sunshine? Oh, right, and if you really want to count it, Super Smash Bros Melee. With two more coming - Mario Party 5, and Mario Kart: Double Dash.

Yup. That's the GC library. Except, of course, for Zelda, Metroid, Eternal Darkness, Pikmin, F-Zero, and Nintendo's lock on the Super Monkey Ball, Rogue Squadron, and Resident Evil series.

As you said, Nintendo's games are not much different from what they did before. So perhaps its your idea of fun that's changed, not Nintendo's games.

In a given year, Nintendo will make 2-3 of the best games of the year. Last year they did Eternal Darkness and Metroid Prime. This year, it looks like Zelda and F-Zero, though with Mario Kart, Pikmin 2, and their Metal Gear Solid remake, all still coming out this year, they might easily get another. On top of these instant classics, they line the edges with games that are great and worth owning - Pikmin, Mario Golf, etc.

There is no other game company that comes close to that level of quality, for either consoles or PCs. Blizzard takes 2-3 years to come out with one game as great as Zelda, Metroid, or Eternal Darkness.

Considering that, I can't imagine buying a console other than the Nintendo console. Especially since the alleged highlights of other systems - Final Fantasy X, Grand Theft Auto 3, and Halo, for instance, did nothing for me.

So, do I think Nintendo has lost its edge?

I think Nintendo are the only people left who have an edge.

Re:Yes

[Mike Mentalist]

Endless games with Mario in them? For the Gamecube, that would be... let's see... Mario Golf, Mario Party 4, and Super Mario Sunshine? Oh, right, and if you really want to count it, Super Smash Bros Melee. With two more coming - Mario Party 5, and Mario Kart: Double Dash.

Yup. That's the GC library. Except, of course, for Zelda, Metroid, Eternal Darkness, Pikmin, F-Zero, and Nintendo's lock on the Super Monkey Ball, Rogue Squadron, and Resident Evil series.

Out of that list, all but one of the first party games are typical Nintendo franchise games. People were moaning about Lara Croft by the time Tomb Raider III was announced - I am sick to DEATH of Mario as he has been around for probably nearly 20 years.


As you said, Nintendo's games are not much different from what they did before. So perhaps its your idea of fun that's changed, not Nintendo's games.

Hold onto that thought for a moment.


In a given year, Nintendo will make 2-3 of the best games of the year. Last year they did Eternal Darkness and Metroid Prime. This year, it looks like Zelda and F-Zero, though with Mario Kart, Pikmin 2, and their Metal Gear Solid remake, all still coming out this year, they might easily get another. On top of these instant classics, they line the edges with games that are great and worth owning - Pikmin, Mario Golf, etc.

Perhaps in your opinion they will, but not others. The only game out of that lot deserving high praise is Eternal Darkness. MP was just Metroid in 3D, and not as good as I had hoped. And how can Metal Gear Solid be so critically acclaimed, when it is just a remake of an older game?


There is no other game company that comes close to that level of quality, for either consoles or PCs. Blizzard takes 2-3 years to come out with one game as great as Zelda, Metroid, or Eternal Darkness.

But Nintendo only developed Zelda themselves - the other two were done by other development studios.


So, do I think Nintendo has lost its edge?

I think Nintendo are the only people left who have an edge.

You yourself said that their games do not change much - so how can they have an 'edge' if that is true?

Re:Yes

[liquidzero4]

I couldn't agree with you more. I own all three systems and have been an avid gamer since the Atari 2600 / Intellivision days.

I bought my GC and XBOX within a month of each other. That was about a year ago. At the time I had no idea that 1 year later I'd own 10 GC games and only three XBOX games.

To be honest with you Nintendo are the only ones doing anyhting different. Sure the characters are the same but the games are inovative and fun.

XBOX and PS2 re-hash the same tired games with the same tired graphics. There all either car games or first person games. XBOX and PS2 are just tired and boreing for the most part.

People really need to give the GC chance and acutally play some of the games before they knock it.

Re:Yes

[Ondo]

People were moaning about Lara Croft by the time Tomb Raider III was announced - I am sick to DEATH of Mario as he has been around for probably nearly 20 years.

Yes, but Tomb Raider I, II, and III were essentially the same game with different levels from what I've heard. Nintendo has pretty much never done that.

Re:Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? Nintendo has never rehashed the same game?

Super Mario Bros 1
Super Mario Bros 2
Super Mario Bros 3
Super Mario World
Super Mario Land
Super Mario Land 2

-Or-

Zelda Ocarina of Time
Zelda Majora's Mask
Zelda The Windwalker

-Or-

Pokemon *Insert all 15 billion colors here*

-Or- ... I could probably spend all day adding examples here. The new 3D Marios are all the same. Mario Party is up to 4 and they all look pretty damn similar. All the Donkey Kong Countries. You get the idea...

Re:Yes

[Snowspinner]

Out of that list, all but one of the first party games are typical Nintendo franchise games. People were moaning about Lara Croft by the time Tomb Raider III was announced - I am sick to DEATH of Mario as he has been around for probably nearly 20 years.

So in your case "Mario" means "any Nintendo property that has had another game come out in the series"? That's an interesting definition.

I suppose my question would be why reinvent the wheel with new characters? Yes, they could have made Mario Golf with characters who weren't Mario characters... but why? Mario is a perfectly good franchise to use for a cartoony golf game.

Perhaps in your opinion they will, but not others. The only game out of that lot deserving high praise is Eternal Darkness. MP was just Metroid in 3D, and not as good as I had hoped. And how can Metal Gear Solid be so critically acclaimed, when it is just a remake of an older game?

I'd say Eternal Darkness is, on the whole, less inventive than Metroid Prime. Eternal Darkness is a Zelda-esque dungeon hack with some shiny insanity effects. It does a great job on them, and so is still a great game, but Metroid Prime takes the first-person-shooter in a direction it had never been taken before. More to the point, it did things with the first person shooter that people said couldn't be done - platforming sections that didn't suck, exploration based gameplay, etc.

And, I mean, what were you hoping for from Metroid Prime? Something that wasn't Metroid?

But Nintendo only developed Zelda themselves - the other two were done by other development studios.

Second party development studios that, with heavy input and control from Nintendo. I do not consider the fact that Nintendo has begun to expand and take in some other development studios to mean that those games are not Nintendo games.

You yourself said that their games do not change much - so how can they have an 'edge' if that is true?

Nintendo continues to do what it's always done - perfect styles of games, and invent new styles of games. Even their new styles of games, though, have a certain... Nintendoness to them. They display elegance of control, and are typically very easy to pick up and play, but not nearly so easy to beat, and harder still to "fully" beat (i.e. unlock everything, get 100% completion, etc).

Regardless, in every genre and style Nintendo has attempted, they are reliably among the best at it.

That seems an edge to me.

Re:Yes

[PyroMosh]

NONE of the super mario games have had the same game play. Ever. With the exception of SMB2 Japan (Lost Levels here in the U.S.).

SMB 1 was the classic, shitty control formula that was ground breaking at the time but doesn't hold up so well.

SMB 2J (LL) was more of the same with diffrent levels. Oh, and Luigi had slightly diffrent control in that one.

SMB 2 was a side scroller, but you didn't kill bad guys by jumping on them, the emphesis ws on throwing things and bad guys.

SMB 3 was slightly like SMB 1, but there were so many game play and control changes as to make it a new game.

SMB World was also, again, similar to 1 and 3. But there was enough of a diffrence to make it unique.

SMB World 2 was NOTHING like any of the others. Mario was barley in it. It was just "Baby Mario" riding on Yoshi's back. Basicly you played Yoshi. Totally diffrent game.

Mario 64 was unique again still. But I though it was bland and uninteresting. They moved to 3D too soon.

Mario Sunshine has something going for it. The water pack makes for fun, diffrent gameplay, and things like the multiple jumps make for lots of crazy manuevering within levels. Maybe if I'd played Mario 64 further through, Id have encountered cool stuff like this, but it just didn't hold my attention.

Zelda I started that series.

Zelda II was a side scroller, and people hated it because it was too diffrent (I think it may have been the best in the series).

Zelda III reminded me of Zelda I a bit. But the first was so simple, and III so complex, that it's hard to compare the two.

Ocarina of Time was like none of the others. It made Hyrule feel like a vast place. Unlike I and III. II did the same. I guess this is why these two are my favorites.

I never played Majora's Mask, but it used OoT's engine. I can understand the two being very similar.

I've hardly played Wind Waker at all, but it seems very OoT like as well, graphics not withstanding.

Pokemon, I can't comment on at all. I've never played any of them.

From my point of view, the biggest thing is that there's no new franchises. Oh wait. Eternal Darkness. Pikmin. Animal Crossing. Damn.

The point is that Critisizing Mario games for being jumping platformers is like critisizing Warcraft for being RTS. Or Half-Life for being FPS. That's just the meat of the series.

Re:Yes

[Anonvmous Coward]

" I am getting tired of endless games with Mario in them."

Mario's simply a character to Nintendo, not a game formula. It's kind of like saying you're sick of movies that have Edward Norton in them. Could be worse, Mario could be like Jean Claude Van Damme.

Re:Yes

[Mike Mentalist]

So in your case "Mario" means "any Nintendo property that has had another game come out in the series"? That's an interesting definition.

I suppose my question would be why reinvent the wheel with new characters? Yes, they could have made Mario Golf with characters who weren't Mario characters... but why? Mario is a perfectly good franchise to use for a cartoony golf game.

Because it is incredibly dull seeing the same characters from the same company all the time.


I'd say Eternal Darkness is, on the whole, less inventive than Metroid Prime. Eternal Darkness is a Zelda-esque dungeon hack with some shiny insanity effects. It does a great job on them, and so is still a great game, but Metroid Prime takes the first-person-shooter in a direction it had never been taken before. More to the point, it did things with the first person shooter that people said couldn't be done - platforming sections that didn't suck, exploration based gameplay, etc.

MP isn't inventive at all - all the elements from it have been around in all the previous Metroid games for years. All they did was put it in 3D. I don't see GTA3 is being very invenive, as that is just GTA in 3D.


And, I mean, what were you hoping for from Metroid Prime? Something that wasn't Metroid?

No idea, really. Something better than how it turned out.


Second party development studios that, with heavy input and control from Nintendo. I do not consider the fact that Nintendo has begun to expand and take in some other development studios to mean that those games are not Nintendo games.

It isn't really Nintendo, though. Halo isn't actually from Microsoft either.


Nintendo continues to do what it's always done - perfect styles of games, and invent new styles of games. Even their new styles of games, though, have a certain... Nintendoness to them. They display elegance of control, and are typically very easy to pick up and play, but not nearly so easy to beat, and harder still to "fully" beat (i.e. unlock everything, get 100% completion, etc).

They haven't come up with a new style for years - merely taken something that exists and make it smaller.


Regardless, in every genre and style Nintendo has attempted, they are reliably among the best at it.

That seems an edge to me.

Erm, what genres are these? They have done platforming and... more platforming. Not much else.

Re:Yes

[Mike Mentalist]

Mario's simply a character to Nintendo, not a game formula. It's kind of like saying you're sick of movies that have Edward Norton in them. Could be worse, Mario could be like Jean Claude Van Damme.

When it comes to films, you hear people saying that they are sick of seeing the same actors all the time - and I am sick of Mario.

Re:Yes

[Snowspinner]

Because it is incredibly dull seeing the same characters from the same company all the time.

Hang on, lemme look again at the sales of the last Zelda game... or the most recent Pokemon games... or the box office of the last James Bond movie...

Nope, looks like you're crazy.

MP isn't inventive at all - all the elements from it have been around in all the previous Metroid games for years.

What elements are those? Aside from a common weapon set, the appearance of the main character, Ridley, and the fact that its an action/exploration game, I'm not sure what resemblence MP has to the original Metroid. And, considering that the Metroid series, prior to 2002, had been around for 15 years with only 3 games, I have trouble seeing how it was done to death - an average of a game every five years just doesn't seem to me to be overreleasing.

Erm, what genres are these? They have done platforming and... more platforming. Not much else.

Action/Adventure: Zelda (Hardly any platforms, and with the auto-jump, I have trouble calling it a platformer. And, for all the similarities to Ocarina/Majora, Wind Waker was also a dramatic improvement as a game - I hardly mind if Nintendo keeps releasing games in that style, so long as each one improves on the last. Also Eternal Darkness. Again, no platforms there.

Fighting: Super Smash Brothers Melee. I know you derided it as a button mashing beat-em up, but that's fighting games for you. SSBM is the only fighting game I can easily hand a controller to someone who doesn't play many video games and get them playing capably within two minutes. And with the handicap system, I can then easily make it a fun fight for both of us.

Racing: F-Zero.

Puzzle: Pikmin.

Party: Mario Party.

Re:Yes

[Anonvmous Coward]

"When it comes to films, you hear people saying that they are sick of seeing the same actors all the time - and I am sick of Mario."

Typecasting is the problem, not seeing the actors. Notice not all celebrities follow that formula you've created.

Re:Yes

[NanoGator]

"Whilst their games used to be new and exciting, it is all the 'same old same old' these days. I am getting tired of endless games with Mario in them."

I think you're confusing Mario for Sonic the Hedgehog. Seriously, what exactly is so insightful about this? The GameCube is not known for 'rehashes'. Now if you want to have a peek over at Sony and Microsoft's camp...

Frankly, I think this guy's just forgotten what fun gameplay is about. You can look at Mario Sunshine and say "yep, he's running around jumping like in Mario 64" and then put it down, or you can say "Oh cool, now that he's got this water pack, I've got a whole new toolbox of snazzy things to do in order to reach those high places." It's like comparing Babylon 5 and Deep Space Nine by saying "Yep, they're on a space station, those two shows are exactly the same!" What a horrible thing to say about Deep Space Nine!

Re:Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

Whilst

Twit.

Re:Yes

[NonSequor]

MP isn't inventive at all - all the elements from it have been around in all the previous Metroid games for years. All they did was put it in 3D. I don't see GTA3 is being very invenive, as that is just GTA in 3D.

I don't know what the hell to say.

Okay, I've managed to collect myself after a few minutes.

The innovative thing is that Nintendo took something old and infused it with something new without fucking destroying it. This is extremely difficult to do with anything, including video games. It's like trying to translate literature. A truly great translation not only preserves the meaning of the original, but must also maintain the subtlest distinctions found in the original text. You have to keep the imagery and flow of the original.

Anyone with a translation dictionary and a grammar book can make a crude translation. But not just anyone can make a good translation.

Metroid Prime was a truly great translation of an old game into a new format.

Re:Yes

[Mike Mentalist]

The innovative thing is that Nintendo took something old and infused it with something new without fucking destroying it. This is extremely difficult to do with anything, including video games. It's like trying to translate literature. A truly great translation not only preserves the meaning of the original, but must also maintain the subtlest distinctions found in the original text. You have to keep the imagery and flow of the original.

If you think that doing that is innovative, then you are totally and utterly wrong.
Tell me, do you think that GTA3 is innovative? Lemmings 3D?

Re:Yes

[Mike Mentalist]

The GameCube is not known for 'rehashes'. Now if you want to have a peek over at Sony and Microsoft's camp...

Nintendo have a habit for reusing the same things over and over. I find it amazing that you can point the finger at MS and Sony for it, yet not Nintendo.


Frankly, I think this guy's just forgotten what fun gameplay is about.

Strange as it may seem, what is fun to you may not be fun to other people.


You can look at Mario Sunshine and say "yep, he's running around jumping like in Mario 64" and then put it down, or you can say "Oh cool, now that he's got this water pack, I've got a whole new toolbox of snazzy things to do in order to reach those high places."

Either that or I could say "I did this all six years ago in Mario 64, and it is not fun anymore".
Is it really that hard to accept that some people may not like Nintendo games?

Re:Yes

[drinkypoo]

While I agree with your main points, Zelda I and III are basically the same game for different platforms with different graphics capabilities. III had more going on, but the cart held more, it's that simple. The platformer mario games can be put into two groups; those in which you can pick things up, and those in which you cannot. Otherwise they are more or less the same.

Nintendo's strength is making fun games with good play control (though super mario bros. 2 wouldn't give you any hint of that, really.) Their characters are not new and exciting but they have amazing staying power and Mario is a far more important gaming icon than, say, lara croft. Obviously he has amazing staying power... hmm, what's next, mario pr0n? (I, II, The Lost Booty, and III?)

Re:Yes

[NonSequor]

I think your standards for what qualifies as innovation are rather misguided.

Re:Yes

[Ondo]

Ocarina of Time was like none of the others. It made Hyrule feel like a vast place. Unlike I and III. II did the same. I guess this is why these two are my favorites.

I never played Majora's Mask, but it used OoT's engine. I can understand the two being very similar.

It's not. Your constantly repeating the same three days. It has vastly more interaction with NPCs, as you learn their schedule over the three days and solve the puzzles for them. You get masks that let you transform. And, unfortunately, they no longer have any hard fights.

I've hardly played Wind Waker at all, but it seems very OoT like as well, graphics not withstanding.

The dungeons are fairly similar, though they no longer need to be completed in one sitting. The overworld map is drastically different, as it's now all ocean with islands, which makes a very significant difference in game play.

Re:Yes

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Nintendo have a habit for reusing the same things over and over. I find it amazing that you can point the finger at MS and Sony for it, yet not Nintendo."

I think you're amazed because you think you know what you're talking about, but you don't. Having familiar characters in a game does not a rehash make. Is What Dreams May Come just like Death to Smoochy?

"Strange as it may seem, what is fun to you may not be fun to other people."

I think his point is that you've got your head up your ass. You're too busy saying "it's the same" and not looking at it more closely. Take it as an insult, or take it as an honest reflection of how you sound. I've seen so many people looking for ways to poo poo something, they miss it. Having played all of the games that NG's mentioned, I can say without question that we're not talking about rehashes here.

"Either that or I could say "I did this all six years ago in Mario 64, and it is not fun anymore"."

To which my response would be "no you didn't do this in Mario 64 because it's not much like Sunshine at all really."

"Is it really that hard to accept that some people may not like Nintendo games?"

That isn't the issue here. The issue is that you're talking out of your ass. It doesn't affect my world at all if you don't like Nintendo, but if you're going to not like them then at least have a good reason. Just say "My tastes have changed.", not "Uh they're the same , at least that's the way it looks in the screenshots."

Don't believe me? Read the other comments in this thread. You flamingo'd up big time.

Re:Yes

[Mike Mentalist]

I think you're amazed because you think you know what you're talking about, but you don't.

Yawn.


Having familiar characters in a game does not a rehash make. Is What Dreams May Come just like Death to Smoochy?

I didn't say that JUST having the same characters makes it a rehash. But many of their games are rehashes, and using the same characters for nearly twenty years reinforces that view.


I think his point is that you've got your head up your ass.

No, it is the usual GC-owner response that signifies that they cannot understand why not everyone finds Nintendo games fun.


You're too busy saying "it's the same" and not looking at it more closely. Take it as an insult, or take it as an honest reflection of how you sound. I've seen so many people looking for ways to poo poo something, they miss it. Having played all of the games that NG's mentioned, I can say without question that we're not talking about rehashes here.

I have also played all the games that I am critisising, and my assertion and opinion is correct. The sad thing is, Nintendo fans just cannot accept people being like that - and it is pathetic.


To which my response would be "no you didn't do this in Mario 64 because it's not much like Sunshine at all really."

If you cannot see that SMS is very similar to Mario 64, then you are totally blind. It's been mentioned in countless reviews, and is one critisism that many people have said about the game.


That isn't the issue here. The issue is that you're talking out of your ass. It doesn't affect my world at all if you don't like Nintendo, but if you're going to not like them then at least have a good reason. Just say "My tastes have changed.",

Once again, it is allways a case of "No, the problem is definetly NOT Nintendo! The problem is YOU!" from the Nintendo camp.


not "Uh they're the same , at least that's the way it looks in the screenshots."

You are talking out of your arse, as I do own a Gc and have played those games. But hey, I must be lying, right? The problem MUST be with me, right?


Don't believe me? Read the other comments in this thread. You flamingo'd up big time

Oh, I have read them. I have had people saying that Metroid Prime is innovative because the transition from 2D to 3D was done well. I have had you say that SMS is nothing like Mario 64. I have had someone say that Smash Bros Melee is the best beat em up. I have had people saying that F-Zero is the best racer.

And you say that I talk out of my arse? Hoo boy!
I knew that I would get this type of response, though - it happens every time I see someone start critisising Nintendo games. Within 3 or 4 posts, the Nintendo camp starts saying that the other person doesn't know what they are talking about. I got a post modded down, and all I said was that taking Metroid into 3D was not innovative.

Re:Yes

[Anonvmous Coward]

"I didn't say that JUST having the same characters makes it a rehash. But many of their games are rehashes, and using the same characters for nearly twenty years reinforces that view."

Heh, no, it doesn't.

"No, it is the usual GC-owner response that signifies that they cannot understand why not everyone finds Nintendo games fun."

Nice try, but no. This isn't Nintendo zealousy talking, it's somebody who's arguing with your details that sound an awful lot like frequent complaints made by the people who haven't played these games.

"If you cannot see that SMS is very similar to Mario 64, then you are totally blind. It's been mentioned in countless reviews, and is one critisism that many people have said about the game."

If you cannot see the glaring differences between the two games, then you are totally blind. It's been mentioned in countless reviews.

"Once again, it is allways a case of "No, the problem is definetly NOT Nintendo! The problem is YOU!" from the Nintendo camp."

In this case, the problem is that you presented yourself badly.

"You are talking out of your arse, as I do own a Gc and have played those games. But hey, I must be lying, right? The problem MUST be with me, right?"

Oh I'm sure you picked it up, made Mario run around and jump a bit, and then said "this is just like Mario 64! Dammit!" Yep, the problem must be with you.

"And you say that I talk out of my arse? Hoo boy! "

Still do.

"I knew that I would get this type of response, though - it happens every time I see someone start critisising Nintendo games. Within 3 or 4 posts, the Nintendo camp starts saying that the other person doesn't know what they are talking about. I got a post modded down, and all I said was that taking Metroid into 3D was not innovative."

As I've said, and you've pointed out, you brought it on yourself. You came in and said something that's easily disputable. Instead of listening to the disputes, you just sit there like "Man, everybody must be crazy for not agreeing with my half-assed assumption. It must be all that Nintendo zealousy! It couldn't possible be that people here see something rather obvious that I don't. Oh well, my dissatisfaction must be Nintendo's fault."

You should re-examine how you sound to people informed on the topic of which you speak instead of trying to blame them for having a rebuttal.

Re:Yes

[Mike Mentalist]

Heh, no, it doesn't.

Sorry, but you are incorrect. It is a commom complaint made against Nintendo.


Nice try, but no. This isn't Nintendo zealousy talking, it's somebody who's arguing with your details that sound an awful lot like frequent complaints made by the people who haven't played these games.

Nintendo zealotry is all it is. "You haven't played it" is what is always blurted out in response to critisism to Nintendo games.


If you cannot see the glaring differences between the two games, then you are totally blind. It's been mentioned in countless reviews.

Completely and utterly false. The reviews were full of comments about the similarities. What you are saying is like someone trying to claim that GTA2 is vastly different to GTA.


In this case, the problem is that you presented yourself badly.

No, the case is that as usual Nintendo fans cannot bear the critisism.


Oh I'm sure you picked it up, made Mario run around and jump a bit, and then said "this is just like Mario 64! Dammit!" Yep, the problem must be with you.

This is precisly what I am talking about. You cannot accept that someone will actually play the game and then make their mind up about it - the only scenario you can deal with is if the person has not actually played it.


As I've said, and you've pointed out, you brought it on yourself.

No, I did not say that I brought it upon myself - I said that I expected the usual response from Nintendo fans.


You came in and said something that's easily disputable.

No, it is NOT easily disputable at all.


Instead of listening to the disputes, you just sit there like "Man, everybody must be crazy for not agreeing with my half-assed assumption. It must be all that Nintendo zealousy! It couldn't possible be that people here see something rather obvious that I don't. Oh well, my dissatisfaction must be Nintendo's fault."

Listening to the disputes? What, like the usual "You haven't played the games!" and "You don't know what you are talking about!".


"Man, everybody must be crazy for not agreeing with my half-assed assumption.

Half arsed assumption is believing that SMS is significantly different to Mario 64


It must be all that Nintendo zealousy!

That pretty much sums it all up. Nintendo fans got their 'passionate' label for a reason.


It couldn't possible be that people here see something rather obvious that I don't.

Such as?


You should re-examine how you sound to people informed on the topic of which you speak instead of trying to blame them for having a rebuttal.

Oh good grief. The standard line once again - "You don't know what you are talking about".
So, despite having a NES, SNES, N64 and GC... I don't know what I am talking about. Amazing logic that you lot can come up with.

Re:Yes

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Half arsed assumption is believing that SMS is significantly different to Mario 64"

This comment alone disproves your point.

Re:Yes

[Anonvmous Coward]

Sorry, hit submit when I meant to hit preview.

"Half arsed assumption is believing that SMS is significantly different to Mario 64"

This alone disproves your point. If you don't see the difference between SMS and Mario 64, then how can anybody take you seriously? It's got some of the same fundamentals, no argument there. It is, though, a hell of a lot richer of an experience over Mario 64. Being good at Mario 64 does not make you good at Mario Sunshine. You still have a lot to learn in order to do anything useful in that game.

That's why nobody is taking you seriously. It's got nothing to do with Nintendo zealousy, it has to do with you not opening your eyes. Nintendo did a fine job, the defect is with you. If you don't enjoy that style of game, fine, perfectly okay, no problem here. Just don't go around saying Mario Sunshine is just like Mario64. That's what's getting people to argue with you.

Re:Yes

[NanoGator]

"No, the case is that as usual Nintendo fans cannot bear the critisism."

In general, that may or may not be true. In this case, though, you made a really stupid comment. If I were you, I'd own up to that instead of trying to pass the blame off on Nintendo enthusiasm.

AnonV was absolutely correct that your comment likening Super Mario Sunshine to Mario 64 was disputable. One would really have to oversimplify to say they're the same. I have a feeling that's how you hit is hot button. I don't think he's bothered that you're criticizing Nintendo, I think he's bothered that you got modded as insightful/interesting over a comment that'd only ring true with people who haven't played the game.

As I said before, you really should just own up to what you said and move on. You two will never agree. Unfortunately for you, the facts of the matter are not on your side. One could launch reason after reason after reason why SMS is different from Mario 64, you'll still flush it all because you're mad at Nintendo for not satisfying you. The GameCube and the Mario games may not be what you want anymore, doesn't mean that Nintendo did anything wrong. With that in mind, do you really want to carry on with this petty argument?

Just own up. Blaming everybody else for your flamebait comment isn't going to end in a positive resolution.

Re:Yes

[Mike Mentalist]

This alone disproves your point. If you don't see the difference between SMS and Mario 64, then how can anybody take you seriously?
Because it is totally true, and is something that has been stated in numerous reviews. There is far more than mere 'fundamentals' that are similar - the main crux of the game is the same.
For Gods sake, even Nintendo themselves owned up that SMS didn't live up to expectations.


That's why nobody is taking you seriously. It's got nothing to do with Nintendo zealousy, it has to do with you not opening your eyes. Nintendo did a fine job, the defect is with you. If you don't enjoy that style of game, fine, perfectly okay, no problem here. Just don't go around saying Mario Sunshine is just like Mario64. That's what's getting people to argue with you.

Incorrect - it is mere zealotry to say that SMS is all that different to Mario 64.

Re:Yes

[Mike Mentalist]

In general, that may or may not be true. In this case, though, you made a really stupid comment. If I were you, I'd own up to that instead of trying to pass the blame off on Nintendo enthusiasm.

I have nothing to actually own up to in the slightest.


AnonV was absolutely correct that your comment likening Super Mario Sunshine to Mario 64 was disputable. One would really have to oversimplify to say they're the same. I have a feeling that's how you hit is hot button. I don't think he's bothered that you're criticizing Nintendo, I think he's bothered that you got modded as insightful/interesting over a comment that'd only ring true with people who haven't played the game.

Incorrect, SMS is painfully similar to Mario 64 - many reviews have stated it, and even Nintendo themselves admitted that SMS was not up to scratch.


One could launch reason after reason after reason why SMS is different from Mario 64

Oh? Like WHAT?


Just own up. Blaming everybody else for your flamebait comment isn't going to end in a positive resolution.

If you think that stating SMS is similar to Mario 64 is flamebait, then you do not actually know what flamebait is. Are you saying that everyone who stated so in a review is a troll, didn't understand the game or doesn't know what they are talking about?

Re:Yes

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Because it is totally true, and is something that has been stated in numerous reviews. There is far more than mere 'fundamentals' that are similar - the main crux of the game is the same."

Funny, I went skimming around the reviews. I found one that supported your statement, and a handful of others that had lots of good things to say about the evolutions of the game. There's something I'll concede to: the game's not revolutionary, but it's a heck of an evolution. I'll settle onn that. However, something very important about SMS, you don't play it the same as you play Mario 64. You may be after sunshine sprites or whatever, the road getting there is very different. You have to think about the world in a much different way than you had to in Mario 64.

"For Gods sake, even Nintendo themselves owned up that SMS didn't live up to expectations."

They're talking about their sales numbers. Yes, Nintendo has taken a very significant hit in popularity.

"Incorrect - it is mere zealotry to say that SMS is all that different to Mario 64."

Riiiight. Never mind the FLUDD pack with all that brings, the much broader variety in how challenges are solved, and the different state of mind you have to be in to play this game, it's the same because you run and jump and the guy wears a little red hat.

Re:Yes

[NanoGator]

"What you are saying is like someone trying to claim that GTA2 is vastly different to GTA."

No, not really. GTA -- GTA2 was not much more than a level upgrade. On the other hand, I wouldn't say Mario 64 to SMS would be the same as comparing GTA to GTA 3.

For the record, when I first started playing SMS I felt exactly the way you did. It wasn't until I got a few levels deep that I found the real charm of the game. If AnonV had the same experience I did, I could understand why he's saying you haven't played it. I'd suspect it myself. On the other hand, if I were hellbent on hating the game anyway, I'm not sure there's much it could do to convince me. I'm that way with Matrix Reloaded.

Re:Yes

[NanoGator]

"I have nothing to actually own up to in the slightest."

You came in and posted something you knew would draw fire.

"I knew that I would get this type of response, though - it happens every time I see someone start critisising Nintendo games. Within 3 or 4 posts, the Nintendo camp starts saying that the other person doesn't know what they are talking about."

Incidentally, that is flamebait. If you had taken a more PC approach to your views, you might have had much less resistance to your claims. You knew better but you went on anyway.

"Incorrect, SMS is painfully similar to Mario 64 - many reviews have stated it, and even Nintendo themselves admitted that SMS was not up to scratch."

I felt that way in the beginning of the game. About a quarter of the way in or so the game really flourished. I found myself really challenged, as opposed to thinking about what to do to trigger whatever it was I wanted. SM64 felt so.. oh I dunno.. linear? Confined? With the pump and the the coins skittered about, the game became much more about exploration and having fun than 64 was. Gotta defend it here. The pump was much more than a simple addition, it turned the game on its side.

I'm not so quick to jump on board with whatever reviews you read. Those guys have to play that game and beat it before its lauched. They don't sit down and take the time to just enjoy the game and have fun, they're trying to get to the end. Anything can seem painfully repetitive in that concetrated of state.

"If you think that stating SMS is similar to Mario 64 is flamebait, then you do not actually know what flamebait is. Are you saying that everyone who stated so in a review is a troll, didn't understand the game or doesn't know what they are talking about?"

Don't get bitchy at me, I'm not attacking you. It wasn't that you compared the two games, it was the way you presented it. It didn't help that you said something along the lines of "well it has those characters therefore the games are similar". I don't remember your exact wording, but that's definitely how that was interpreted. Back in the 16-bit days, there was a thick line drawn between the SNES and the Genesis. You had the Sonic the Hedgehog people and the Mario people. Often each side never played the games of the other side. With this lack of information, a war grew. One of the complaints from the Sonic side was that there were so many Mario games. But the Mario boys knew something the Sonic boys didn't, the Mario games were vastly different from each other. Sonic, though, didn't change a whole lot. I guess you could relate it to the GTA -- GTA2 argument you made in another post. Nintendo fans have had to put up with this ill-informed bullshit for years. I'm not surprised AnonV's said what he has said, but I can't say I totally blame him. if you had altered your original post a bit, you wouldn't have had this problem.

Again, don't get shitty with me here. I'm not defending SMS to its death, I just happened to like it. You don't need to jump my ass over it.

Re:Yes

[Snowspinner]

Oh for the love of God.

You did not need to say the exact same thing about Super Mario Sunshine in four different posts.

One would think the large number of people who are disagreeing with you, to say nothing of the substantial body of critical acclaim the Nintendo games you're so eager to criticize get.

You're remarkably quick to label anyone who likes Nintendo games a Nintendo fanboy, and to radically misrepresent their claims. And yet you get surprisingly defensive when anyone suggests that you're a troll - which is interesting, considering that your cumulative moderation in this thread, at this point, is -9, with an amazing total of -8 for trolling. (-4 for redundant, and one +3 for an insightful for your first contribution.)

Or are the mods just Nintendo fanbois too?

Re:Yes

[Mike Mentalist]

Funny, I went skimming around the reviews. I found one that supported your statement, and a handful of others that had lots of good things to say about the evolutions of the game.

I am not going to sit here Googling for reviews, but I did dig out the Edge review of it (UK based mag), and they said that it wasn't as good as Mario 64, and is more of an expansion pack than a sequel.


You may be after sunshine sprites or whatever, the road getting there is very different. You have to think about the world in a much different way than you had to in Mario 64.

No, you do not.


They're talking about their sales numbers. Yes, Nintendo has taken a very significant hit in popularity.

They certainly were NOT talking about sales numbers in this instance. They said that the next Mario game was the true sequel.


Riiiight. Never mind the FLUDD pack with all that brings, the much broader variety in how challenges are solved, and the different state of mind you have to be in to play this game, it's the same because you run and jump and the guy wears a little red hat.

The FLUDD pack does NOT add all that much to the game, and it is blindingly obvious to anyone who can actually open their eyes. This isn't just me saying this either, as plenty of people who have gone on to get every single shine have repeated the same thing.

Re:Yes

[Mike Mentalist]

On the other hand, if I were hellbent on hating the game anyway, I'm not sure there's much it could do to convince me. I'm that way with Matrix Reloaded.

Funnily enough, I did not buy a GC just to hate all the games on it.

Re:Yes

[Mike Mentalist]

You did not need to say the exact same thing about Super Mario Sunshine in four different posts.

Well, if I am replying to four different people about the same point...


You're remarkably quick to label anyone who likes Nintendo games a Nintendo fanboy,

No, just those who trot out the usual "you haven't played it" or "You don't know what you are talking about".


And yet you get surprisingly defensive when anyone suggests that you're a troll - which is interesting, considering that your cumulative moderation in this thread, at this point, is -9, with an amazing total of -8 for trolling. (-4 for redundant, and one +3 for an insightful for your first contribution.)

Or are the mods just Nintendo fanbois too?

Thats typical Slashdot moderation. If you look carefully, I had posts modded down where I was actually describing Metroid Prime - even the one where all I mentioned was the lack of a proper strafe was modded down as flamebait.

Re:Yes

[Mighty]

First of all, due to the lack of graphical hardware advances it has been difficult to keep thinking out of the box. So you'll see the same game engine rehashed from time to time. Although Super Mario bros for the 8-bit, i think were mostly different engines, had to for the different effects with the limited hardware. However, even if they were the same engines you can't knock them either way, they did/are make/making a lot of money. There are way more people who don't care, they want to see the same gameplay in a different experience. PS I do agree with the pokemon thing, i don't play, but i wish they would price them a little lower.

Re:Yes

[NanoGator]

That's not what I meant, but it does sound that way. I'm sorry. Hard to express yourself clearly when you're trying to get it typed out before the rendering is complete. :)

Re:Yes

[NanoGator]

"The FLUDD pack does NOT add all that much to the game, and it is blindingly obvious to anyone who can actually open their eyes. "

Hey dude, just a thought, the pump is the central focus of the game. You use it to get around to anywhere in the map. It's 'blindingly obvious' that it really changes the mood of the game over Mario 64.

Get out of 'argument mode' and think about it for a sec. I realize AnonV's got ya kind of wound up (he can be a real ass sometimes) but now you're saying stuff that doesn't make all that much sense.

Re:Yes

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Thats typical Slashdot moderation. If you look carefully, I had posts modded down where I was actually describing Metroid Prime - even the one where all I mentioned was the lack of a proper strafe was modded down as flamebait."

You were modded down because you were intentionally trying to make a point that wasn't true just to rile people up. You were either trolling, or seriously misinformed.

Believe me, I've seen people with your opinion of SMS modded up as insightful before. It ain't Nintendo zealotry or 'typical Slashdot moderation' going on here.

Re:Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

Then dont fucking buy Mario games you fucking retard.

Re:Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem to be doing a goodjob though. One would suspect you dont own a cube and just troll the boards, looking at your posting history.

GC 2

[bartok]

The only way I can see Nintendo taking the lead over Microsoft with it's next generation console is if the GameCube 2 can play GBA games without a GBA pluged-in. (By having a carthroge slot on the side and the regular CD player for GC & GC2 games) The GBA game library is so huge that all of a sudden, your console could play them all from the day of it's release AND have access to regular CG games.

It's so obvious that this is a wining strategy IMHO.

Re:GC 2

[Anonymous Coward]

By having a WHAT on the side?

Re:GC 2

[goraknotsteve]

Not sure why I would want to play my GBA games at a resolution of 240x160 on my 32inch widescreen TV. Heck, even the humble ZX Spectrum managed 256x192

Re:GC 2

[edwdig]

You can do that now. You can get a free GameBoy Player when you buy a GameCube. The only reason to plug the GBA into the GameCube is if you'd prefer to use the GBA as a controller instead of the GameCube controller.

Re:GC 2

[mrpuffypants]

Or what about just making the memory cards and their slot the same form factor as GBA games? That way if you wanted to play a GBA game you could just plug it right into the memory card slot and play away.

Re:GC 2

[Anonymous Coward]

/me slaps forehead. jeez. why didnt i think of that? then the cross platform games (splinter cell, metroid etc) could unlock new data or even download new data to the gb cart _OR_ your characters' data could be used in the gc game. p3

Re:GC 2

[SDrifter]

You mean like one of these, right?
http://www.nintendo.com/systems/gcn/gbplay er.jsp

Re:GC 2

[drinkypoo]

Or if a game requires that you use the GBA as a controller. Two games do so now in multiplayer mode, crystal chronicles and some zelda game.

poor nintendo

[Phoenix Dreamscape]

Poor Nintendo... a mere $572 million in profits. How can they ever survive? Seems hopeless, eh?

With such pathetically unoriginal titles like Pikmin, Warioware, and Metroid Prime, it seems like the Gamecube is little more than trash that they through out because they refuse to let well-enough alone.

What Nintendo really needs is to start pumping out some derivative First-Person shooter titles with laggy internet support so I can get my ass kicked by cocky assholes with bad grammar.

Re:poor nintendo

[krisbrowne42]

:)

I've found the GameCube, with the GBA player strapped underneath, to be the console I spend the most time on.

This from someone with a PS2, Nin64, Dreamcast, and Gamecube.

There are a ton of really fun games, and when it comes to 4 player games, party style, the 64 and GC still beat anything else down. And with the GBA player for the huge GB and GBA library out there, how can you go wrong.

Now if the new titles prices came down a bit, the GC would be my favorite console.

Re:poor nintendo

[Mike Mentalist]

With such pathetically unoriginal titles like Pikmin, Warioware, and Metroid Prime

Those games are nowhere near as original as you think - ESPECIALLY Metroid Prime.


What Nintendo really needs is to start pumping out some derivative First-Person shooter titles with laggy internet support so I can get my ass kicked by cocky assholes with bad grammar.

Something that doesn't feature the Mario Gang and has a bit of ambition would be a start.

Re:poor nintendo

[Cecil]

I wish I had mod points. +1 Insightful.

Re:poor nintendo

[termos]

haha, funny but true. I wish I had modpoints now.

Re:poor nintendo

[Snowspinner]

Before trolling endlessly about the Gamecube, making repetative and easily refuted claims (Nintendo has no innovative games, all their games feature the Mario gang), and pimping your site, you might want to make sure your site actually loads.

Just a tip, so you can get it fixed and pimp it before your karma goes through the floor with the -1 trolls.

Re:poor nintendo

[Mike Mentalist]

Before trolling endlessly about the Gamecube, making repetative and easily refuted claims (Nintendo has no innovative games, all their games feature the Mario gang)

Ah, here we go.
Has it EVER occured to you that some people may not like Nintendo games? It is my personal opinion that the GC has only about three games worth me playing - now are you going to try and argue that I am a troll because I think that?

I also do not think their games are very innovative, and most of their games contain the same old characters - again, am I a troll for saying that?


and pimping your site, you might want to make sure your site actually loads.

It is not 'my' site, I merely contribute to it - it is undergoing a server move at the moment.

I suggest that you get it out of your head that everyone should like Nintendo games - I could quite easily call you a Nintendo fanboy but I have not.

Re:poor nintendo

[(trb001)]

methinks some moderators misinterpreted your sarcasm for "+1: Insightful"...

Re:poor nintendo

[Anonymous Coward]

Or maybe they actually got the joke? Dumbass.

Re:poor nintendo

[bigman2003]

I hate grammar nazi's..

But, if you are going to knock other people's grammar, make sure you can spell 'throw' right. 'Through' is close, but they mean different things, and actually don't even sound the same.

Re:poor nintendo

[Flamerule]

I hate grammar nazi's..

I hate slashdotter's who put apostrophe's before the 's' in place's they don't need to be.

Re:poor nintendo

[bigman2003]

Good point-

Re:poor nintendo

[mausmalone]

Maybe they thought that the point that the sarcasm was making was insightful. Nobody thinks that the GCN needs a new FPS.... Heck, not even the X-Box needs another FPS. If I see one more game where I'm walking around dark hallways with a gun right under my eyeball, I'm gonna shoot somebody for real.

Re:poor nintendo

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm with you 99%.

Re:poor nintendo

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody likes a backseat gamer.

WTF?

[octover]

Why is everything good in the world constantly dying? I just switched over to the dying Apple OS, Mac OS X. It has been the best OS I have ever run. (Not to say it doesn't have its deficiencies, but overall I have enjoyed the experience a lot more than anything else) I own a PS2 and a Gamecube, I have an X Box in the house. The PS2 is in my brothers room, I don't play it that much. The X Box hardly gets turned on by anyone. The Gamecube is in my room so I can readily play it. I used to buy all the games, but I am slowly becoming everything I ever hated, and don't have the time for all of the good games. So I can only play the cream of the crop, which I have found tends to be my Gamecube. I find that my Gamecube is the best of all the systems. I find that I wouldn't trade my Mario Golf, F Zero GX, Super Mario Sunshine, Mario Party 4, Super Smash Brothers Melee, for anything. I've even found the games that are available on other platforms are better on my Gamecube (i.e. Soul Caliber 2).

If this is what dying things are like, I hope that more things that I currently enjoy go into a perpetual state of dying.

Re:WTF?

[drinkypoo]

Not only is Mac OS X dying because it's Apple, it's dying because it's *BSD! Maybe that's why it's so good, it's dying twice.

Has Nintendo Lost its Edge

[iwannarideacowboy69]

I as a teenager have found that Nintendo has not lost its edge. The Super Nintendo was the best type of video game system ever. That is until the Nintendo 64 came along. The regular Nintendo was by far the best of them all. It was technology that was outstanding for its time. Also, look at all at of the classic games that come along with Nintendo. Mario (of every kind, Duck Hunt and Mega Man. That is why Nintendo has not lost its edge.

Re:Has Nintendo Lost its Edge

[Anonymous Coward]

eh?

Re:Has Nintendo Lost its Edge

[gnuage.cowboy]

what do those old systems have to do with gaming today? i love classic gaming too, but that has nothing to do with the fact that most of the games for GC are geared that the younger audiance, not the generation that has played nintendo games since nintendo was making games for the atari... i kinda feel like they have left the gamers that made them who they are today behind them... don't get me wrong, i have younger sisters who love to game, and there is a nice selection for them to play on the GC, but i think nintendo should add more games for adults...

Re:Has Nintendo Lost its Edge

[Mitaphane]

The Super Nintendo was the best type of video game system ever.

So the SNES was the best game system ever?

That is until the Nintendo 64 came along.

Um the N64 is the best then?

The regular Nintendo was by far the best of them all.

So the NES was the best, ok.

It was technology that was outstanding for its time. Also, look at all at of the classic games that come along with Nintendo. Mario (of every kind, Duck Hunt and Mega Man. That is why Nintendo has not lost its edge.

Um, what does Duck Hunt( a game released 18 years ago)and Mega Man(a series not even exculsive to the Nintendo console since the SNES days and not even made by Nintendo) have to do with Nintendo not losing it's edge recently with the GameCube?

I have to say that I think Mario Sunshine is not as good as Mario 64, but other than that the games Nintendo makes for it's own systems are solid, good games. And not only that they're one of the few companies that aren't afraid to take their game franchises in new directions to keep them fresh(e.g Metroid, Mario). While it might not end up as good(Mario Sunshine) it has payed off sometimes(Metroid Prime). That's why Nintendo hasn't lost their edge. They're willing to change the formula in order to give gamers something new.

Nintendo - the Apple of game systems

[yetanothertechie]

I'm beginning to see parallels between Apple and Nintendo, particularly in predictions about their demise. How many articles have their been since gamecube came out saying that Nintendo was going down the tubes?

The fact is, the gamecube is an excellent platform and there are a huge number of great games available, (not as many as PS2, but plenty). They also have a dedicated fan base that's not likely to embrace either of the other platforms any time soon. For those who complain that they have too many "kids" games, there will always be lots of kids playing games, so it's not like they'll have a declining market. For that matter, so many of their games are great for any age: windwaker, animal crossing, soul caliber 2, various sports games...how are these for kids only?

Why does Nintendo get bashed so much? What, you'd rather support Microsoft or Sony?!

Re:Nintendo - the Apple of game systems

[WapoStyle]

I have the same feeling about Nintendo as you. Nintendo is becoming the Apple Computer of the console industry.

Nintendo games are the best of the best and few people realize it. The Gamecube is still perceived by the general public as being the least powerful console of the bunch. Just a few months ago a friend of mine bought a PS2 and asked me if I would have gone with that or an Xbox. I suggested Gamecube, he said "Yeah, but isn't that less powerful than the PS2?"

It's been beat to death so many times, but Nintendo still has a lot of work to do with it's image.

Re:Nintendo - the Apple of game systems

[mr.capaneus]

No, that is NOT a fact. There has been more or less nothing on the GC that has interested me.

Actually it is a fact. We are discussing the Gamecube game library not what Mike Mentalist is interested in.

Re:Nintendo - the Apple of game systems

[Mike Mentalist]

Actually it is a fact. We are discussing the Gamecube game library not what Mike Mentalist is interested in.

LOL!
How can it be a 'fact' when it is totally dependent on opinion?

Re:Nintendo - the Apple of game systems

[psxndc]

I think it can be objectively and empirically stated:

"Metroid Prime 0nwz"

If you can't agree, well then it would be like you saying "There is no oxygen in the air": you would simply be wrong.

psxndc

Re:Nintendo - the Apple of game systems

[AvitarX]

Does that mean Nintendo has to up it's price to half again as much to stay alive?

I own and prefer the GC, but 150.00 was the most I was going to pay for any system, so I didn't really have a choice. at 50% more then the Xbox (would that be 240?) I would not do it.

how could I sink many hours of work into a game system. in my area that is half a months rent If you are paying half of a 3 bedroom).

Re:Nintendo - the Apple of game systems

[Guppy06]

"I'm beginning to see parallels between Apple and Nintendo,"

Could be worse. Apple doesn't have to work practically next door to a major competitor.

I wonder if the NOA crew have managed to TP the MSFT compound yet...

Re:Nintendo - the Apple of game systems

[SuperRob]

Why does Nintendo get bashed so much? Because we all grew up with Nintendo, and we all loved Nintendo. We grew up, and our tastes changed, and Nintendo stayed Nintendo. Now that Nintendo no longer gives us EXACTLY what we want, it has to be Nintendo's problem, and not ours, right?

I always tell people, "Don't worry. Some day, you're going to get married, have kids of your own, and find that Nintendo is right there where you left them, waiting with open arms to entertain you and your family once again." When people discover the joy of playing games, even colorful, lighthearted ones, with their families, they'll realize that Nintendo was right all along.

Re:Nintendo - the Apple of game systems

[Anonymous Coward]

I couldn't have said it better.

But such things don't preclude being able to enjoy Nintendo games throughout your gaming life. I've never "outgrown" Nintendo games, I've simply been able to add other types of games to my repertoire. When it comes to enjoyment of this nature, it's like enjoying the same kinds of music as when you were younger. Nobody will tell someone who was a fan of the Beatles when they were 10 that they are stupid for listening to their music when they are 50.

They don't realize:

[vasqzr]

Screw the 'Nintendo is nice and neat' mantra.

Use STANDARD MEDIA! Cartridges, mini-DVD's...wtf, you'd figured they'd learn

Keep pumping out Mario/Zelda games.

I think whoever releases the next console will be the winners....As long as it is clearly a better product than what's out right now.

Re:They don't realize:

[edwdig]

Tell me, how does the use of mini DVD's hurt anyone? Oh, it hurts the pirates. And maybe 2% of games feel an effect from it. A GameCube disc still holds 2.5x as much as a CD does, and is about equal in storage to a Dreamcast disc. It's not a big deal for a game to need a second disc - I've even seen four disc PlayStation 1 games.

On all disc based systems the manufacturer of the system produces the discs. Doesn't matter what format they're in, they all cost pennies to make. Nintendo cut their licensing fees a while ago to be competitive with Sony. The minidiscs are only an issue if you think a game should be 99% FMV.

Re:They don't realize:

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, while carts were outdated by the time Nintendo stopped using them, I fail to see what's wrong with MiniDVDs. The problem with carts with the expensive cost and limited capacity, none of which carries over to the MiniDVD format. Who cares what format the games come in as long as they are cheap to manufacture and can store enough data?

Or are you looking to pirate games?

honestly, I can't tell is this is a really dumb comment or a really really terrible troll attempt.

Re:They don't realize:

[analog_line]

Yeah, use standard media because you can't download any GameCube games for free, you mean...

Idiot.

Re:They don't realize:

[Artifex]

Tell me, how does the use of mini DVD's hurt anyone?

The fact that it couldn't play DVDs, and the other two consoles could, definitely kept me from seriously considering it.

People who only have enough money for one console, probably look for the one with the most functionality. Especially if they are looking to get it for their kids.

Re:They don't realize:

[lp_bugman]

My two cents...
DVD Players are now so sheap... you can buy one for about $39 at walmart.

And I don't think it's a good idea to put a DVD player in your childrens room (they will watch "Toy Stoy every day up until 4am in the morning

Using TV as a way of controling your children is not a good idea and you should not use it as your nany. Get a real one.

Re:They don't realize:

[edwdig]

The fact that it couldn't play DVDs, and the other two consoles could, definitely kept me from seriously considering it.

cost of GameCube + DVD Player = cost of PS2/Xbox

The PS2 DVD player blows. My roommate had a PS2, and we'd often try using it to play DVDs. But half the time I'd end up taking the disc out and putting it in my computer due to the PS2 having trouble. It just doesn't like certain scenes. You pretty much have to buy the DVD remote for the PS2 as using the controller to play a DVD is completely unintuitive.

I know I'd much rather have a GameCube + DVD player combo. About the same cost as a PS2, but better DVD playback. Haven't heard anything about the Xbox's DVD playback quality, but I doubt it tops a dedicated player.

Re:They don't realize:

[bigman2003]

XBox DVD playback is pretty good. I am not a videophile, or audiophile, but I personally can't see any problems with it at all. Best of all, I've never had a skip, or hiccup on it at all. This is far better than my early generation DVD player, or my fiancee's el-cheapo player. I used to avoid renting DVD's because of skips- but that is a thing of the past now that I use my Xbox

Frequently it gets mentioned that the DVD playback ability costs $30- that is true. But, you don't need to buy any memory cartridges, so it comes out even in the 'necessary accessories' category.

Re:They don't realize:

[Anonvmous Coward]

"The fact that it couldn't play DVDs, and the other two consoles could, definitely kept me from seriously considering it."

The PS2 aspired to be both a game machine and a DVD player, and didn't excel at either. The games may be fun on it, and the DVD player may more or less work, but both suffered. PS2 games have a soft blurry look to them due to a RAM bottleneck (to the point that side by side, the Dreamcast looked superior), and there are numerous complaints about the DVD playing abilities of that machine.

Sony's lucky the PS2 didn't end up like the Phillips CD-I.

Re:They don't realize:

[NanoGator]

"The fact that it couldn't play DVDs, and the other two consoles could, definitely kept me from seriously considering it."

Somehow I doubt that this will affect your decision to buy a next gen machine. You've already got a DVD player now, why would it be a factor next time around? Even if you would, it's not so clear anybody else would. Who'd buy a game machine that plays VHS tapes?

Re:They don't realize:

[Scrameustache]

Who the hell modded that guy up?

The PS2 DVD player blows. My roommate had a PS2, and we'd often try using it to play DVDs. But half the time I'd end up taking the disc out and putting it in my computer due to the PS2 having trouble.

Funny, I use my PS2 as my primary DVD player, it never gives me problems.

It just doesn't like certain scenes.

Maybe the disc is scratched? Maybe it wasn't burned right?

You pretty much have to buy the DVD remote for the PS2 as using the controller to play a DVD is completely unintuitive.

Lessee, + pad to move "cursor" around, big triangle shaped button (hmmm, the exact same shape as the "play" symbol on DVD remotes) that says "start"...
Yeah, totally counter intuitive. Jeez.

Re:They don't realize:

[Guppy06]

"You pretty much have to buy the DVD remote for the PS2 as using the controller to play a DVD is completely unintuitive."

At least you don't have to buy the remote to get the DVD driver update. Oh, wait...

Re:They don't realize:

[Guppy06]

"Use STANDARD MEDIA! (...) mini-DVD's."

What's not "standard" about mini-DVDs? They're still DVDs, just smaller. I think you're confusing "standard" with "I can't easily buy blank media to pirate games onto." If you're so desparate to rip-off Blockbuster, wait a little while for somebody to make a digital camera that writes to 8 cm DVD+RWs, because until then burning GCN games is the only possible market for such a medium.

Or are you bemoaning about the GameCube's inability to play DVD movies? With things like what's happening to DeCSS and with the DMCA, you'd think any Slashdotter would be damned proud to own a game console where the MPAA (and their lackeys at the DVD Consortium) don't see a single red cent.

Re:They don't realize:

[damiam]

If you don't want your children to have a DVD player in their room, they definately shouldn't have a TV and gaming system there, for the same reasons.

Re:They don't realize:

[Artifex]

Somehow I doubt that this will affect your decision to buy a next gen machine. You've already got a DVD player now, why would it be a factor next time around?

True, next time around. But I didn't have a DVD player or a recent game console at the time.

Kinda?

[darkmayo]

Nintendo itself is still putting out quality games.. now those are the games put out by nintendo... games like Zelda, F-zero, Animal Crossing, Mario Golf..

Mario Sunshine was ok.. but it just didn't seem like Mario.. as well they have been trying to have the gameboy advance be apart of alot of new games.. (Metroid Fusion/Prime, Animal Crossing, Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicals) as well they still have the stigma of being the "family system" despite there attemps to draw in the older audiences.

After they snubbed RPG fans with the N64 most went to sony who had RPGs a plenty. They neglected a big market of gamers (especially in Japan) that was stupid.

IMO they where stupid when they didn't embrace the online market like mircosoft and to a lesser extent sony.

They have done some stupid things as of late but overall I think they haven't lost there edge.. but it could use a bit of sharpening.

Re:Kinda?

[mr.capaneus]

IMO they where stupid when they didn't embrace the online market like mircosoft and to a lesser extent sony.

I actually think this is one of their wiser moves. I really doubt that there are really that many console game players that want to play online all that much. Microsoft is going to have a hard time making their online service profitable. It requires a lot of extra infrastructure and money that could be spent on other things and really does not add all that much value to the console. I am betting that we will not see a very large base of paying Xbox Live players anytime soon. The games are not very compelling and the experience is irritating as often as it is fun. It appeals to a specific subset of gamers and most of those people are signed up already.

Re:Kinda?

[Incoherent07]

I agree with you that losing Square was a mistake, but that was a mistake made 5 or 6 years ago and a mistake they're finally trying to correct.

I am going to take issue with you saying they still have the stigma of being the "family system". Why is that a stigma? Are kids, or for that matter adults, too "cool" for platformers, or what amounts to an adventure/RPG, or some of the other original games they've put out recently?

Not everything in life is about shooting up the bad guys or watching the bouncing polygonal boobs. Nintendo realizes that, and I for one applaud them for sticking to their guns.

Re:Kinda?

[darkmayo]

Square wasn't the only RPG making company out there.. I can recall maybe 2 RPGs for the N64.. one I can actually name Quest 64 which was a joke. They could have easily approached another company for some cool RPGs.. they didn't.

As for the family systen stigma, I stand by my opinion. The market has changed. The people who grew up on video games are no longer kids, the 20+ market is pretty damn big and sony, microsoft see that market.. a market that wasn't around when the console frontrunners made there debute.

We don't need to have tits and gore to appeal to an older market, but more mature less cutesy themes would be a good start.

The best thing I applaud them for is for contiuning to remake the classics. Which is the reason why I purchased a GC... and a N64...
but other than those classics.. there isn't much.
(for me)

Re:Kinda?

[darkmayo]

yea time will kinda tell on that.. personally I enjoy games online so it kinda skews my opinion.

Re:Kinda?

[the_riaa]

While I agree most RPGs on the N64 weren't just bad but awful, there was one diamond in the rough: Paper Mario. If you're a fan of turn-based RPGs, give PM a shot. You should be able to get a copy of it cheap somewhere. Oh, and Harvest Moon wasn't bad.

Re:Kinda?

[drinkypoo]

I don't think Xbox live will have any trouble making money. I suspect it's how they really plan to recoup costs on selling Xboxen under profit. I haven't got Xbox live yet because A> I've been waiting for live 2.0 and B> I've been waiting for Crimson Skies, the game I most want to play online on my Xbox. Not to mention the upcoming Live-enabled version of Sega GT. On the other hand I might have to get another Playstation 2 (I ditched mine for rent money) so I can play Gran Turismo 4 and Colin McRae Rally 3 with a force feedback wheel, a peripheral which has still not materialized for the Xbox. (Incidentally the Logitech Driving Force USB wheel works on PS2, PC, and Mac. Very hip. I got mine used for $35 at software etc.)

Re:Kinda?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are sadly mistaken if you think adults of 20 years ago didnt play video games.

Are you kidding?

[vasqzr]

Worst of all, in my opinion, was the system's mediocre performance. Games generally seemed to have less polygons than similar PlayStation titles and had terribly blurry textures and sub-SNES quality music. The hardware that had looked so hot in 1996 aged incredibly quickly, and many gamers noticed.


Play any title that's on both PSX and N64...tell me which is better. Tony Hawk for instance.

The Playstion is a horrid splash of bouncing, jaggie-filled, sparkling textures, and the N64 version is a smooth, antialiased, 3D world.

Re:Are you kidding?

[karnal]

" sub-SNES quality music."

I find that part particularly amusing, since Sony actually made the sound chip for Nintendo in the SNES.....

Re:Are you kidding?

[ab5tract]

This is actually an argument I've been in numerous times, and each time it ended with both sides winning. How? As everyone knows, Nintendo decided to use cartridges for the N64. I'm not sure what the average numbers for N64 cartridges are, but I can garuntee you they are counted in Mega-bits, just like cartridges for the SNES (remember Chrono Triggger and FF3? "32-Megabit cartridge! Biggest Game Ever!!@!"). So even if they ever managed to squeeze 650 Mb into one cartridge (and I'm rather sure that they never managed this), it would only have one _FOURTH_ of the storage capacity enjoyed by the PSone, with its 650 MB CD-ROM (which could have concievably increased to 700 MB towards the end of the PSone's lifecycle).

What this translated into for the PlayStation was a lot more room for a lot more varied textures, even if those textures weren't 'hi-res' or whatever buzz word Nintendo used to describe the capabilities of their system. So while the N64 had more "raw power" for displaying its worlds, it was hindered by the fact that the textures it had available for doing this were often crappier than those on the PSone simply because the developers had to skimp on the textures in order to save room for other aspects of the game.

Basically, the arguments concluded with "the N64 is better at 'cartoon-ish' style graphics" while "the PlayStation is better at 'realistic, gritty' graphics" (even though the N64 generally trumped the PSone in terms of jagged edges and overall smoothness).

Re:Are you kidding?

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you talking about? The extra cd storage space didn't go into textures, it went into prerecorded audio and video. It's debatable as to whether that's better than doing things on the fly.

Also, the biggest N64 game was Resident Evil 2, at 64 MB. The size came from (wouldn't you know) all the movies.

Re:Are you kidding?

[vasqzr]

Ever hear of the N64 expansion pack?

Re:Are you kidding?

[Bagels]

Actually, the effect you're seeing with the textures on the N64 is bilinear filtering, not AA.

Re:Are you kidding?

[Anonymous Coward]

"N64 version is a smooth, antialiased, 3D world."

You misspelled "Blurry as shit"

Re:Are you kidding?

[scot4875]

Bilinear filtering is an anti-aliasing technique. So yes, he is seeing AA.

And the only way to get AA out of a Playstation was to play it on a crappy TV. (Still no perspective correction, tho)

--Jeremy

Re:Are you kidding?

[drinkypoo]

The N64 is a superior platform but many of the ports from PSX were sloppy, and plenty of the games were just craptacular. I bought some racing game once and got it home only to find out that when you turned, the cars pivoted around their center point, not around the rear wheels. Great. This is probably because nintendo is seen as the kiddy konsole and people assume that children won't have standards as high as teens and adults.

Sony's global presence and utter worldwide ubiquity - I can probably name seven or eight sony-branded items which I own without straining, and I haven't bought anything because it said sony, it was for feature set and price:performance ratios - is what enables them to be seen as the "Grown-up" console. Hence people tend to put more effort into the PSX games.

The exception of course is Nintendo, they produce top-quality games. There have been other exceptions as well, like Square (which nonetheless could have done considerably more work on the interfaces to the original final fantasy games) and Rare, Enix, and a few others. But for the most part I think third party titles for nintendo systems have been lacking quality.

The N64 was seldom really pushed, except by the titles which Nintendo was somehow involved with, or a couple LucasArts games. Anything that needs the 4MB ram expansion, basically, or works better with it. Episode 1 Pod Racer for N64 is basically unplayable due to graphics glitching and undrawn polys without the memory expansion, but very nice with it...

bah

[reptilezero]

i don't understand why people think ninteno is going to die. they own the handheld market and they're making a profit. i bought a gamecube just to play the gba games on the gba player, and it was a much better purchase than my xbox. this is coming from someone who has been dogging nintendo since the n64 debacle. once you give the games a chance, it becomes clear why nintendo isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Re:bah

[Cassius105]

Because people who write this stuff are americans/europeans

Gamecube may be dying over here in the west

but nintendo have japan securely under here control and that is why they make a huge profit with gamecube while microsoft make a 33% loss on xbox

Re:bah

[jwilcox154]

Or maybe Sony is going to have a handheld game system, called PSP, or Playstation Portable, just look what happened to Nintendo when Sony released the Playstation, once Sony releases theior PSP, that WILL be the final nail in the coffin for nintendo, and then Microsoft or Sony will get whatever is left of Nintendo.

The problems will be that the GBA will STILL use cartridges, use 2D Sprites and proprietary expansion, to where Sony will use 1.8 GB UMD "Universal Media Discs" , 2D Sprites and 3D Rendering, Higher Res Screen, MPEG4 Video"Who knows, there might be a way to watch MPEG4 movies on these things ;)", and it will feature USB 2.0.

So, unless Nintendo comes up with a Handheld just as spetacular, Nintendo will no longer exist in a few years. Of course, Sony has another 2 advantages over Nintendo, their size and marketing power.

Re:bah

[Anonymous Coward]

Cool scenerio there sparky, but the GBA (and sucessor) will cost under $100 easy to get parents to part with, and carts stand up to more abuse then shiny discs.
The PSP as you describe it will have a number of IMO wak points for breakage, as well as a cost near $300, not something parents will be likely to get the kids.

Gamecube titles

[mr.capaneus]

The Gamecube really does not suffer from a lack of titles. The reason that it isn't selling well in the U.S. is the perception that there is a lack of titles. The console business is all about marketing and image these days. People will buy what their friends have and what they think is cool. I have both a GC and a PS2. While there are more games that I can purchase for the PS2, there are more games I want to play on the GC, by far. I had been planning on buying a Gamecube because I really wanted to play Metroid Prime and Zelda. Unfortunately I decided to "research" my decision on the web and everything I read said that the GC was inferior to the PS2. I hate to say it but I think the inertia of the market is going to continue for a while longer. Nintendo will wane. Xbox will wax. PS2 will continue to dominate.

Re:Gamecube titles

[darkmayo]

For me its a lack of games that I want to play...

Other than the Nintendo Exclusive releases there isn't anything the systems has that makes me say damn I want to play that. They are pretty weak for decent 3rd Party games.. especially since most of the games you could just play on another platform anyways.

I own a GC, I own F-zero, Mario Sunshine, Mario Party 4, Animal Crossing and Metroid Prime.

Re:Gamecube titles

[mr.capaneus]

Zelda and Metroid were the hooks that got me. You don't need a ton of games, just a few high quality ones that people know about.

Re:Gamecube titles

[darkmayo]

hehe it was the same thing with the N64 for me..

Mario 64
Zelda
Golden Eye
Perfect Dark

just a few games for the system and we still bought it.. but we did buy it as soon as it came out.. man that was a sad launch

your choice of MARIO 64 or PILOTWINGS 64

Re:Gamecube titles

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey now, just because Pilotwings 64 was as much a glorified technology demo as the first one doesn't mean Mario 64 was a terrible game. ;)

Some signs that Nintendo has lots its edge

[AtariAmarok]

Pokemon? It's the new hot property. Look for lots of new games!

Refusal to come out with "Vice City"-style Zelda game in which Link has a Hookershot weapon.

Mario now jumps and smashes Geritol bottles instead of bricks.

Rumors of R&D department having the next-generation console load games off of a "Close and Play" phonograph.

"Dharma and Greg" TV tie-in game, coming soon!

Re:Some signs that Nintendo has lots its edge

[Guppy06]

"Refusal to come out with "Vice City"-style Zelda game in which Link has a Hookershot weapon"

Am I the only person to read that and immediately think that suction-cup gun Ataru pulled on Lum in the first chapter of Urusei Yatsura?

How come nobody's build that?

Re:Some signs that Nintendo has lots its edge

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretentious asshat.

Completely Untrue

[Prien715]

Nintendo is doing more innovation with its system than either X-Box or Sony.

First, look at the controller. Sony decided to copy its last system almost whole-sale. X-Box is absolutely abysmal.

Round two. Software. I don't know who's been saying Nintendo hasn't been making innovative games. Two words: Metroid Prime. It's won game of the year practically every major gaming site and is the only game to really combine the FPS and an adventure game in such a tight package. The newest Zelda game has some of the most revolutionary graphics I've seen in a while. Lastly, is there any multiplayer game more fun and unique than Smash Brothers (or the sequel)? If anyone can find what game they've decided to copy with that, I'd be really curious.

On the flipside, the X-Box's main draw is yet-another-first-person-shooter. Sony's best are available for other consoles (Madden on everything, GTA on PC).

While Nintendo's games tend to star familiar characters, that doesn't mean the gameplay involved cannot be truly innovative, which is really the same its always been.

Re:Completely Untrue

[darkmayo]

"Sony decided to copy its last system almost whole-sale"

Why fix what isn't broken.

The dual shock controller is great. Why force your customers to get use to a whole new controller when you can reuse the old design.
Personally I don't think there is any need for more buttons.. unlike the game consoles of old.

Re:Completely Untrue

[Mike Mentalist]

Nintendo is doing more innovation with its system than either X-Box or Sony.

Yes, the whole GC-GBA connectivity is SO much more advanced over online gaming on the Xbox and PS2 (yes, I am being sarcastic).


First, look at the controller. Sony decided to copy its last system almost whole-sale. X-Box is absolutely abysmal.

And what exactly is the point in totally redesigning a controller each time? The GC one is far from perfect - the D-Pad is WOEFUL, the sticks are different to each other and the Z button is useless.
The problems with the Xbox pad are exaggerated, and the Controller S is a million times better anyway.


Two words: Metroid Prime.

And how is MP innovative?!? It is just Metroid in 3D!


The newest Zelda game has some of the most revolutionary graphics I've seen in a while.

It is far from innovative, as it isn't really much further on from the previous N64 Zelda games.


Lastly, is there any multiplayer game more fun and unique than Smash Brothers

SMS is just an annoying beat-em-up type game, and there are far better multiplayer games available.


On the flipside, the X-Box's main draw is yet-another-first-person-shooter.

Whereas all Nintendo can offer is yet another sequel.

Re:Completely Untrue

[edwdig]

Metroid Prime is by far my favorite 3D game - I've already played through it 4 times. But it's not very innovative. It's just like Super Metroid, only more linear, but from a different camera angle. Sure, there were some innovative bits, like the scan visor, but as a whole, the game was just a slightly weaker Super Metroid.

Probably the best thing they did was the control scheme. The last few bosses would've been near impossible with a dual-analog control scheme. You need quick access to all your abilities at all times during those later fights, including the ability to quickly change weapons.

Re:Completely Untrue

[Dot.Com.CEO]

First of all, let me just say that I read your various comments on this topic and I really think that you have no idea of what you are talking about. You seem intent on trolling anyone who has a Gamecube while not offering any opinions of your own

However, this is slashdot and trolling is your god-given right.

What I find amazing is that you say that Metroid Prime is just Metroid in 3d. Pardon my question but have you even played the game for more than a minute? I own all three consoles as well as a pretty high-spec PC, and there is not one game out there that offers the immersion and playability of Metroid Prime. Saying that Metroid Prime is anything but genious is like saying that Half-Life is just Quake with a story.

Re:Completely Untrue

[Anonymous Coward]

The dual shock is okay, but the analog sticks need serious work. Nintendo has incredibly precise analog control in the GC pad. Imagine trying to play Monkey Ball on a PS2. Ugh.

Re:Completely Untrue

[Mike Mentalist]

First of all, let me just say that I read your various comments on this topic and I really think that you have no idea of what you are talking about.

LOL.
Gee, thats a shock. I see this said to everyone who critisises Nintendo, and it is pathetic.


You seem intent on trolling anyone who has a Gamecube while not offering any opinions of your own

And you seem to equate not liking Nintendo games with trolling. If you do not think that I have offered my own opinions, then I suggest that you re-read my posts.


However, this is slashdot and trolling is your god-given right.

Yawn. This is is Nintendo topic, and being a Nintendo fanboy is your God-given right.


What I find amazing is that you say that Metroid Prime is just Metroid in 3d. Pardon my question but have you even played the game for more than a minute?

Yes, I have. Most people who like it go on about how it captures the Metroid gameplay perfectly. In Metroid, you start out with a weedy weapon and gradually get access to more areas of the game through aquisition of new weapons. In MP you start out with a weedy weapon and gradually get access to more areas of the game through aquisition of new weapons.
I also say that GTA3 is merely the old GTA games but in 3D as well - is that wrong?


I own all three consoles as well as a pretty high-spec PC

As do I.


and there is not one game out there that offers the immersion and playability of Metroid Prime.

I can think of plenty - Halo, PC Medal of Honor, Splinter Cell and Eternal Darkness are a few.


Saying that Metroid Prime is anything but genious is like saying that Half-Life is just Quake with a story.

Sorry, but MP is far from being genius.

Re:Completely Untrue

[PainKilleR-CE]

>Nintendo is doing more innovation with its system
>than either X-Box or Sony.

Yes, the whole GC-GBA connectivity is SO much more advanced over online gaming on the Xbox and PS2 (yes, I am being sarcastic).

The only difference between Sony's online offering and Nintendo's is that Sony is putting more support into it. Otherwise, both companies did the same thing: offer an online adapter and let the developers decide how to support it. At the least, Nintendo's working with it in terms of LAN gaming, though they are definitely not doing much to support playing online.

And what exactly is the point in totally redesigning a controller each time? The GC one is far from perfect - the D-Pad is WOEFUL, the sticks are different to each other and the Z button is useless.
The problems with the Xbox pad are exaggerated, and the Controller S is a million times better anyway.

Sony didn't need to redesign their controller, just improve the analog sticks. Of the three, Sony's analog control is the worst, though I must admit I won't touch the Controller S on my XBox, because the original full-sized controller works much better for me and doesn't have the weird placement of some of the buttons that is seen on the S. The analog control on the full-sized XBox controller was what made me realize the Sony controllers were not quite up to it. The Nintendo controller sealed it.

As for particular issues with the Nintendo controller, I agree with the basic premise behind your complaints about the D-pad and Z button, but you're exaggerating those problems at least as much as anyone I've seen talking about problems with the larger XBox controller. I prefer that the sticks be different, as they should have different uses. The D-pad is setup as a secondary (or tertiary) interface, and isn't meant to be used the way the D-pad was used on older systems (and the way I still use the D-pad on my PS2). At least both Nintendo and Microsoft put the analog stick in the primary at-rest position of the left thumb.

And how is MP innovative?!? It is just Metroid in 3D!

Metroid in 3D, in first-person, with a very different control scheme, solid story line. Bleh, Metroid in 3D all alone would be enough for the title to be at the very least different from the pack. What's so rehashed about it that you feel the need to act like Metroid in 3D is explanation enough?


>The newest Zelda game has some of the most
>revolutionary graphics I've seen in a while.

It is far from innovative, as it isn't really much further on from the previous N64 Zelda games.

Having not had an N64, I can't say too much, but having the OoT disc for the GC, I'd have to say that, as far as I can tell, you didn't address the statement in the least. The graphics are completely different. I wouldn't have called them revolutionary, because cel-shading is being used on every 10th game being released today, but saying it's not really much further from the N64 titles is rediculous.


>Lastly, is there any multiplayer game more fun
>and unique than Smash Brothers

SMS is just an annoying beat-em-up type game, and there are far better multiplayer games available.

Examples? Any games like it (to address the unique part)? What's annoying about it?


>On the flipside, the X-Box's main draw is
>yet-another-first-person-shooter.

Whereas all Nintendo can offer is yet another sequel.

Oh no, not another sequel. Oh well, I'll just wait for Halo 2 then. Doh! At least I have KOTOR to play for a while. Star What? Damn, did it again...

Re:Completely Untrue

[lp_bugman]

The inovative point about Metroid Prime is that they succesfully translated a 2D game in to the 3d world mantaining it's roots!
Most games fail at this, it's very difficult to transform 2D platformes in to the 3d world. I for once DON'T like 3d Games. I stay playing my SNES (Super Metroid), Saturn (Radian Silver Gun, Megaman, Dracula X, Metal Slug, Stree fighters, etc.) and DreamCast (Bangai-o, ikaruga, mars matrix).

There are a feew 3D games that I do like like Metroid Prime and Wolfestein Enem. Territory on the PC

Re:Completely Untrue

[Mike Mentalist]

he inovative point about Metroid Prime is that they succesfully translated a 2D game in to the 3d world mantaining it's roots!

Sorry, but that is not actually innovative in the slightest.

Re:Completely Untrue

[Dot.Com.CEO]

What worries me the most is that with the advent of the internet you can put ramblings like the ones above on a web page, pimp it on slashdot by selling your "articles" on your signature while ignorantly insulting people who just offer an opinion different to yours. Calling me a fanboy does not strengthen your case. Neither does sarcasm. And don't get me started on that LOL. Good-day to you, sir, and goodbye.

Re:Completely Untrue

[edwdig]

The inovative point about Metroid Prime is that they succesfully translated a 2D game in to the 3d world mantaining it's roots!

That's not innovative. It's something that's not easy to accomplish, and rarely happens, but that doesn't mean it's innovative. Innovative would be if they went in a new direction with the series.

Re:Completely Untrue

[mr.capaneus]

and there is not one game out there that offers the immersion and playability of Metroid Prime.

I can think of plenty - Halo, PC Medal of Honor, Splinter Cell and Eternal Darkness are a few.

I think that selection of games is pretty telling. They are pretty much straight FPS games (I don't know about Eternal Darkness, never played it). If that is the kind of game that you like, it makes sense that you would not be all that impressed by Metroid prime. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, it just comes down to personal preference. I really don't think, however, that Halo or Medal of Honor have the same immersive quality that Metroid Prime does. What people like about Metroid Prime is the story, pacing and well-chosen music in addition to the gameplay characteristics. The action is only part of the game and that is what sets it apart from the sea of FPS games that you can buy.

Re:Completely Untrue

[Mike Mentalist]

What worries me the most is that with the advent of the internet you can put ramblings like the ones above on a web page, pimp it on slashdot by selling your "articles" on your signature

It's a fansite that I contribute to. Advertising is not cheap, and you will find that plenty of people advertise sites in sigs.


while ignorantly insulting people who just offer an opinion different to yours.

Excuse me? At which point did I insult someone? The only people who I may have insulted are those that called me an ignorant troll first.


Calling me a fanboy does not strengthen your case. Neither does sarcasm. And don't get me started on that LOL.

You obviously have a very selective memory. You accused me of being a troll, and so my accusation to you was merely to show how stupid it was.


Good-day to you, sir, and goodbye.

So you call someone an ignorant troll, but do not like it when someone says something back to you? How pathetic.

Re:Completely Untrue

[Guppy06]

"First, look at the controller."

I'm personally amazed at how dynamic the controller is. I've discovered that it's better (for me and my gargantuan hands, at least) to put your middle fingers on the L & R triggers (and my right-index on the Z) in games that use the analog stick while games that rely on the d-pad feel better when I have my index fingers on L & R. I'm tempted to say it was designed to work that way. All the dynamics of the N64 controller without looking like one.

Re:Completely Untrue

[damiam]

The inovative point about Metroid Prime is that they succesfully translated a 2D game in to the 3d world mantaining it's roots!

GTA3 did that long before Metroid Prime. Nintendo may have done a great job on it, but the 2D-3D translation is by no means "innovative".

Re:Completely Untrue

[drinkypoo]

Let's see. First of the current generation of consoles to do net-enabled gaming? Xbox. Voice chat? Xbox. IM-style integration? Xbox live 2.0 (is that out yet?) Xbox live 2.0 will also feature/now features video and audio streaming (from windows, naturally.) Xbox has a hard drive, that's not "innovation" or what passes for it anyway? (Some of you people seem to think that logical progressions are innovation. Go work for the patent office, you'll be in like company.)

By the way, I don't know anyone who doesn't like the Xbox Controller S. Personally, I think it's too small, and I am upset with Microsoft's decision to drop the older and larger controller entirely, as it fits my hands much better than the Controller S. And I never EVER see a used Xbox Controller at software etc, just the clones from interact and whatnot.

Xbox's main draw is that you won't end up spending $300 to get hard disk, ethernet, and the system. You don't even need a memory card, which is another $30 or so. (For 8mb? That's lame.) You can rip CDs to WMA on the Xbox and use them for soundtracks in many games. Now THAT is genuinely innovative, if only a little. I'm not aware of any pre-Xbox games at all which will let you do that, on PC or console. Presumably there are some out there, but I've never seen them, so they must be rare. I know there are some games for which you can do that manually, but it was actually a design goal of the Xbox.

The Xbox is arguably no more and no less innovative than other consoles, but if it's one or the other, it's more. They took all the best things about other controllers, including analog triggers with perceptible travel, and put it into one controller. The first one for the US market was too large for most people, but the ideas are sound. Besides, they've already fixed that "problem" so why do people still bitch about it? Anyone remember the original Sega Genesis controllers? They're crap. The D-pad is amongst the most challenging to use (equalled only by the Sega Master System and the Intellivision) and they only have four buttons, which Sega later expanded to seven. Meanwhile SNES had eight from the beginning... If you want to bitch about some controllers, go look at some old sega systems, or as I allude to, the intellivision. Now THAT was an annoying controller.

Re:Completely Untrue

[pantycrickets]

I stay playing my SNES (Super Metroid), Saturn (Radian Silver Gun, Megaman, Dracula X, Metal Slug, Stree fighters, etc.) and DreamCast (Bangai-o, ikaruga, mars matrix).

Ahh, a man with good tastes.

well, maybe

[nocomment]

"In fact, it's the companies with lots of resources who are falling behind in the race who typically come up with the biggest and riskiest innovations. Given Nintendo's ability to create good hardware and its strategic position in the handheld space, that could mean some VERY cool things in the future."

I don't see the gamecube as beeing all that behind. Sega maybe, but in the US Nintendo is #3 behind the PS2, and xbox, in Europe it in #2 behind playstation, and in Asia it has been #2 for awhile with a sudden jump last week into #1. That and they have $6 billion in cash. People think Nintendo is struggling just because they aren't doing as well as their management thought they would. I have played the gamecube at walmart a few times and I think it is a great system. It's the only one I've never seen "down for repairs" since they build the display.

Re:well, maybe

[lidocaineus]

Sega... behind what? They don't make hardware (and when they did, you can't say their last console was behind the times), and their software is considered to be on par with Nintendo's in originality.

Re:well, maybe

[Hedonist123]

I totally agree with the gamecube being the most reliable system. I used to work at a K-Mart and set up the three console displays when the battle began. Very soon after the X-Box was freezing on a regular basis. Not long after that the PS2 had a disc read error problem. Both systems had to be replaced. However, the gamecube kept chugging along without a glitch. Just seems to be a well made system. That's one of my main problems with the PS2, Sony didn't seem to put too much effort into making it a durable system. I've had several friends who had to send their console back to replace the laser, and a couple who just got screwed cuz their warranty ran out. I like my dependable gamecube, like to know my investment will be around for a while after the warranty expires.

hed.

Re:well, maybe

[Anonymous Coward]

Back during the PS2 launch, Sony stated that they were comfortable with a 10% failure rate of their system. In the box. That's not even counting failures within a month or 2 of use. It's no wonder it's not very durable, they just didn't give a shit

disappointed

[tankdilla]

I've been pretty disappointed with Nintendo as of late. They've lost sight of who their core audience is, which is males. And it was mentioned in a previous article that most guys don't want to be caught playing something like Mario Golf or Mario Party, when there are other games geared more toward what males are looking for, which is action, fighting, and girls. Games like Grand Theft Auto and DOA Extreme Beach Volleyball have been noticably missing, while there is an abundance of cutesy character games, and a few that straddle the line. Not to mention the lack of RPGs which has been stated and restated, but it bears repeating. I'm especially disappointed as I've always chosen the Nintendo system when given other options such as Sega, Playstation, and Xbox. And as a Nintendo user seeing a lot of the good titles going to the other consoles, while Nintendo continues to lose game-developing companies (i.e. Eidos as of recent), one can only stick with them for so long before it's evident where the fun games are at now, and will be in the future. While Nintendo has had it's share of successful systems and games, they have also been on the steady decline, and they need a good shot in the arm because Mario can only do so much before it's time to move on.

Re:disappointed

[Anonymous Coward]

hate to reply to my own post, but was Link the best choice they had to use as the Gamecube-exclusive character for Soul Calibur 2? I guess it could've been worse, could've been Mario or Pikachu.

Re:disappointed

[lidocaineus]

...what males are looking for, which is action, fighting, and girls.

Please go back to playing your PS2 and Xbox. Gamers look for *good gameplay*, not silly fetish quests (ie DOAXBV) or fun-for-five-minute games (GTA). Also, note that there aren't that many great fighting games out there to begin with as of late: possibly Virtua Fighter 4 Evo, DOA 3 (debateable), and Soul Calibur 2 (don't even bother mentioning Tekken).

While there are plenty of good games on other consoles, Nintendo's TREMENDOUS pull has been the fact that a majority of their games that come out for their systems literally STAY there, because those games are first party games. I consider it worth it just for that; so do many other people. Since your tastes obviously drift towards the mainstream mindless, why are you even bothering with the GCN?

This whole comment's last shred of validty goes out the window you mention Eidos leaving as a bad thing.

Re:disappointed

[edwdig]

And it was mentioned in a previous article that most guys don't want to be caught playing something like Mario Golf or Mario Party

Look around at a college some time. The Nintendo multiplayer games are really popular.

The game developing companies Nintendo has lost are the companies that would release a buggy port of a 2nd rate game with a low framerate on the GameCube 6+ months after it came out on the other systems, and then wonder why it didn't sell.

Re:disappointed

[Acidic_Diarrhea]

I wouldn't be embarassed playing Mario Golf or Mario Party. I'm not looking for "girls" in my video games. I go to bars for that. As far as "action" and "fighting" go, Mario Golf and Mario Party have "action" in them - if by action you mean some type of movement. Fighting? Soul Caliber 2? Whatever.

They are in steady decline? Nintendo is still making profit. Nintendo does not have to be the number one console maker in order to remain a viable company. Microsoft's XBox division is a continual money loser. It seems like people should be foretelling the death of the XBox division. Microsoft Bob fans?

Re:disappointed

[tankdilla]

This whole comment's last shred of validty goes out the window you mention Eidos leaving as a bad thing.

I guess I should've mentioned Capcom then. Or take your pick of any other company that isn't developing for Nintendo.

The point is this, as a person looking at potential games to play, i'm not looking at Mario Golf and saying to myself, wow that looks like it has great gameplay. If you're not attracting anyone to your product, who will ever know how good/bad the value of the game is. And given the chance to try out Mario Party or do homework, it's a tough call. Nintendo can find a way to draw people in with their quality and their outward appearence if they actually gave it some effort.

Re:disappointed

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

"action, fighting, and girls"

You are the kind of male that bugs me. You fall into the stereotype set by society and thus reinforce the idea that all that men are interested in is violence and sex. It's unfortunate that an entire gender is thought of in those terms.

"most guys don't want to be caught playing something like Mario Golf or Mario Party"

In my experience this is not true. Some men may be like you, but most just don't care. In the student center at the local unviersity, they have a room set up with an XBox, PS2, and GameCube. The Gamecube gets the most action - simply because it's more fun. Yes, Halo can be fun, but, frankly, there are a lot of FPS games out there. Nintendo games are refreshing and original and bright - something that most games can't match.

For example, Halo vs. Super Smash Bros.

Halo is fun for a while (especially vehicles), but I always find myself wishing I had a keyboard and mouse. Halo seems out of place with a controller. It feels clumsy. And, after a while, it gets boring.

Super Smash Bros was designed to be played on a console, and therefore it is far smoother and easier to play.

Re:disappointed

[Ondo]

This whole comment's last shred of validty goes out the window you mention Eidos leaving as a bad thing.

I guess I should've mentioned Capcom then. Or take your pick of any other company that isn't developing for Nintendo.

Capcom?! Capcom has made two Zelda games. Capcom made Resident Evil exclusive to the GameCube. Capcom is coming out with Viewtiful Joe for the GameCube real soon now. Capcom is very much making games for Nintendo.

As for other companies, what other companies? Acclaim, like Eidos, is generally considered to suck. Pretty much all the good third-party publishers still publish games for Nintendo.

Re:disappointed

[lp_bugman]

wrong! They core audience is childrens. You just don't have any idea how strong is the pull of a children when they "want something" they almose allways "get it".

If you were a parent I'm sure you will feel safer if your children had a GB instead of a PS of XBox just because are "safe for him"... You don't wan't your 5 year just playing 3d shooters. of playing boley ball with mostly naked girls.

Re:disappointed

[Cap-America]

okay you are just plain Dumb!

Capcom is makeing a slew of great games for Nintendo. 2 Zelda titles, Viewful Joe, Mega Man, Resident Evil, Killer 7, PN 03, Gotcha Force, Dead Phenix. and on top of that Auto Modellista, Capcom vs. SNK and Tube Slider.

Nintendo has only lost suport from 2 Over Rated companies that haven't created a decent game in years on any system.

Re:disappointed

[Gr33nNight]

If I want porn, I go to the internet. If I want to have fun, I play a game. At least on the internet, I can control it with one hand, try playing a video game like that :(

Re:disappointed

[Gr33nNight]

Nintendo always said, they create games for all ages. They dont specifically create games for people under 10, just teenagers who think that if they only play violent, bloody games will make them more adult, are the ones who say that all Nintendo makes are kiddie games.

When my friends come over, the GC is the first thing that is turned on, and we are not under 10.

Re:disappointed

[bigman2003]

Exactly...with you and your friends, it is the "GC is the first thing that is turned on."

When my girlfriend comes over, it isn't the Xbox that is the first to get turned on...that's for later.

Just a different demographic I guess.

Re:disappointed

[Hedonist123]

Funny, cuz I thought Link was the best choice they could have made. He looks awesome within the Soul Caliber world, just ahead of Spawn on the X-Box. I think the public disagrees with you though, since SC2 for GC has totally outsold the PS2 version hands down, despite having fewer consoles on the market.

hed.

Re:disappointed

[BTWR]

was Link the best choice they had to use as the Gamecube-exclusive character for Soul Calibur 2?

Um... seeing as how gc version of Soul Caliber 2 is outselling PS2 and Xbox combined, I'd say yeah.

Re:disappointed

[Gr33nNight]

Yeah, my wife doesnt mind the GC either. Shes too busy playing WarioWare on my GBA-SP.

Re:disappointed

[Guppy06]

"They've lost sight of who their core audience is, which is males. "

1. You're confusing the general category "males" with the sub-category of "boys." Anybody with a Y chromosone that's (mentally) older than the age of 18 and isn't terminally homophobic has no problem playing Nintendo's games.
2. You're confusing Nintendo's target audience with Sony's and Microsoft's. Nintendo's target audience is now, has always been and will always be "everybody." Maintaining artistic vision instead of always chasing after the almighty dollar is a good thing, sales and marketing departments be damned.

Let's look at it this way: Whose games are most likely to still be remembered ten years from now?

Re:disappointed

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow.

I'd never considered your last point, about whose games will be remembered ten years from now. Against its current competitors, Nintendo wins that prize, hands down.

Re:disappointed

[Anonymous Coward]

If tits and ass was the only thing adults want in games, why didnt the uncensored release of BMX XXX on the GC sell better then the censored release of it on the PS2?

Differentiation...

[dmayle]

Before I sold my consoles (I moved out of the U.S. and haven't gotten around to buying local versions yet), I had a Gamecube and a PS deux (yes, I'm in France now). The Gamecube, which has much less software than the PS2, I used to play Zelda, Metroid, Pikmin, Mario, Luigi's Mansion, Super Smash Bros., and Super Monkey Ball. This basically breaks down into two categories, platformers and party games. On the PS2, I played Ico, Dance Dance Revolution, and Squaresoft games. I looked at the Xbox, and sort of envied the Xbox Live thing...

Anyway, what it all comes down to is that each console serves a certain area the best. If you want platform games, you get a Gamecube. If you want DDR, Square, or edgy games, you get a PS2, and if you want online play, you get an Xbox...

Nintendo's Problem

[incubusnb]

ok, Nintendo's problem isn't its lack of Original Games, Original games it has. Nintendo's problem is the fact that every game looks like it should be catering to 12 year olds. some of the funnest games on GC look like the type of thing that most grown Adults would avoid, who cares how fun it is if your friends are calling you gay because your playing Pikamin. I am a closet GC fan, i don't need everyone to know that every once in a while i need a Super Monkey Ball Fix. what Nintendo needs to do is put a more Adult face on these games without sacrificing gameplay. for example, if Super Monkey Ball became Pshyco Monkey Ball where the Monkeys where all phycotic killers trying to escape hell or something, more adults would buy it because instead of it being some cutesy wootsy furry monkey, its a ravenous drooling ape. sacrifice the kiddy image, kids don't buy games, cater to the people with money in their pockets, thats where success comes from

Re:Nintendo's Problem

[incubusnb]

oops, forgot to use preview, sorry for it being one big paragraph

Re:Nintendo's Problem

[mr.capaneus]

some of the funnest games on GC look like the type of thing that most grown Adults would avoid

translation: Some of the funnest games on GC look like the type of thing that most 14 year olds that want to act like adults would avoid.

Re:Nintendo's Problem

[incubusnb]

if your implying that i'm 14, your wrong, my 23rd birthday is on friday(and no i don't want a present)

Re:Nintendo's Problem

[lidocaineus]

I am a closet GC fan... While I agree that pushing a more grown-up view of their image would be beneficial, Nintendo by no means needs it; they have deep, deep, DEEP pockets, and even in their current state, they could go on for a very long time (this is no Sega situation; while Sega was just as good a producer as Nintendo, they were much less business savvy). Meanwhile, the rest of us who actually know about the games and how they play clamor around Nintendo and how great they are, because... well, they are.

Maybe you should get a backbone and stop worrying about what other people think when you play video games (of all things!), being 24 and all.

Re:Nintendo's Problem

[CasulPoster]

I'm not too happy with Nintendo's decision to cater to a younger crowd... or rather, to make their games "family friendly" - but I think that's just what they're doing.

Every business has a business plan, or mission statement, or something along those lines - and I think Nintendo's underlying philosophy is summarized in the name of their original system in Japan "Famicon" (short for "Family Console").

Nintendo isn't trying to put out games FOR kids, rather, they're trying to put out games that everyone can enjoy, but that are also acceptable for children to play. Basically, games the whole family can enjoy (without the child being confused, or the parents being upset).

Is this a good business decision? Probably not. I can't say that Nintendo won't allow third parties to publish Nintendo games with adult content, though I'd imagine those type of games get far less N-Press than your "Pikmin", "Zelda", or "Animal Crossing". Even if it were made for the system, you wouldn't find GTA in the pages of Nintendo Power which predominantly caters to ages 8 to 14, whether Nintendo wants it to or not.

My main gripe is that WE were the original Nintendo fans, not the next generation of gamers. Nintendo tries to sate us with updated versions of old games where we need games that have evolved and have new ideas and characters. I understand their desire to be a system that supports a family friendly gaming environment (at the expense of business and third party developers) but don't forget your old fans (who arguably keep your system afloat) for your new.

Oh, and "Star Fox Adventures" really sucked.

Re:Nintendo's Problem

[HoppQ]

who cares how fun it is if your friends are calling you gay because your playing Pikamin.

I'd say you need better friends than more adult content in this case.

more adults would buy it because instead of it being some cutesy wootsy furry monkey, its a ravenous drooling ape

I do understand that some people would indeed rather purchase those ravenous drooling ape games than cutesy monkey games. I consider that sad. Now don't get me wrong, I've had moments in my life where I've been a bit nervous standing in front of a shelf selling Nintendo products, but in the end, who fucking cares: not anybody I care about. If somebody thinks I'm gay because I walk out of the store with a Nintendo kiddy game they're no friends of mine. It's a sad thing indeed if someone has such weak confidence in his own sexuality that he needs to boost his self-image with adult content games. Me, given the choice of cutesy monkeys or psycho apes, other things being equal I'd go with the cutesy monkeys, but maybe that's just me.

Re:Nintendo's Problem

[ziggles]

How sad for you.. a 23 year old with a 14 year old's maturity. :P

Re:Nintendo's Problem

[Anonymous Coward]

1. If being called gay bothers you, you need to grow a pair, because on the internet people will call you a lot worse.
2. "Friends" they aint if they are suck asses that they cant stand you enjoying yourself or having fun. I suggest using a baseball bat to "adjust" the way they respect you.

Also your psycho monkey ball idea is "teh ghay".

Re:Nintendo's Problem

[Anonymous Coward]

BMX XXX uncut onthe gamecube disproves you.

Edge? What edge?

[Captain Splendid]

What the subject line says

a nit to pick

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe you meant to say that a 650Mb cart would have one _EIGHTH_ the storage of a 650MB CD-ROM.

Nintendo's Image

[clu76]

Nintendo's biggest problem isn't innovation or originality. They suffer from tainted image syndrome. Just like fashion or music, what once was incredibly popular can quickly shift to something percieved as extremely uncool. Right now, it's trendy to make fun of Nintendo. There are many false claims floating around the various console war discussion forms over the internet. Opponents easily get away regurgitating misinformation because it is widely accepted that Nintendo is standing on its last leg.

Re:Nintendo's Image

[CasulPoster]

Then ask yourself from where does that taint originate? Nintendo DOES have issues. If their product was pure quality (and for what they're worth, they're pretty damn good) there shouldn't be a lot of problem. One of the quality issues however is that they don't have games that appeal to every gamer.

Nintendo's biggest issues right now are:
1. They don't appeal to a more mature audience
2. They keep losing third party developers
3. They have a very weak home-console standing (their most popular product is the GameBoy)
4. The games they promote most furiously are rehashes of old games and characters (and "The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker", for all it's goodness, simply is not as rich an experience as previous Zelda titles)
5. They pay more attention to their target age group, and neglect the people who USED to be in that age group but still want to play games
6. Their promotions are not "cool" - that is to say, PS2 and XBoX will promote to older teens' and adults' sensibilities, whereas Nintendo promotes to a younger crowd's.

So the problems are there. They're still making great money, but they are reaching the end of their rope at least in terms of the console market. There was a time I could comfortably say "Playstation is selling twice as many consoles as Nintendo... but at least we're still tied with XBoX" but that's becoming less true every quarter.

Also, just from a gamers' standpoint, if I want to buy a new game for a particular system at any given time, the odds of finding a game for the GameCube that I'll enjoy are far more slim than they are for either PC, XBoX, or Playstation.

This is not true with the GameBoy Advance, which offers delicious 16bit/32bit goodness akin to the SNES (which was arguably one of the best Nintendo systems to date).

I'm a Nintendo loyalist, but even I'm not so bold as to claim that the buzz surrounding Nintendo's shortfalls and problems are anybody's fault but their own.

Re:Nintendo's Image

[clu76]

6. Their promotions are not "cool" - that is to say, PS2 and XBoX will promote to older teens' and adults' sensibilities, whereas Nintendo promotes to a younger crowd's

I went to the Nintendo Club Party in NYC last year. Do you know what they had on the 21+ nights? FREE BEER! That's right, Nintendo gave me FREE BEER! Now that's what I call great promotion of a product. :)

Re:Nintendo's Image

[PainKilleR-CE]

Also, just from a gamers' standpoint, if I want to buy a new game for a particular system at any given time, the odds of finding a game for the GameCube that I'll enjoy are far more slim than they are for either PC, XBoX, or Playstation.

I guess that depends on what you base your odds on.

When I go looking for a new game, I spend a good 20 minutes or so wandering around the store looking at titles (this is a problem for me because I own the PS2, XBox, GC, and GBA, and can't quite afford to buy a new title for every system all the time, so I make sure I'm buying a title I think I will play for at least 2 weeks). I have a much harder time finding games that even interest me on the PS2 and XBox racks than I do on the GameCube racks. That being said, there probably are more total PS2 games that I want to play, but they are much harder to find because there are many times more games that I don't want to play. When a good XBox or GameCube game comes out, it's easy to tell because everyone flips out like it's never happened before. Unfortunately, while there are more XBox games on the shelves, there are much fewer good games for the XBox than for the GC. The majority of my XBox games are multiplatform titles, including Soul Calibur 2, which is all I've played on my XBox besides KOTOR in the last couple months.

I've had the GC for the shortest time of the 3 current home consoles, but I'm getting close to having more titles for it than I do for the PS2, and passed up the XBox quite a while ago. As a console RPG fan, though, the PS2 is going to stay connected to my TV for quite some time, as neither Microsoft nor Nintendo are even close to hitting the same number of good console RPGs as the PS2, let alone the PS1.

Re:Nintendo's Image

[AzraelKans]

That and the fact that they stopped manufacturing it, its practically unavailable in several countries, it has been number 3 in sales worldwide (except japan for a short time because RPG crazed fans went and bought a single RPG for it),all reports of good sales from nintendo come from the GBA, And they dont have any plans for it in the future you may call spectacular (with the sole exception of fzerox).
Yeah is just a wrong impression for their image and because is trendy, they are actually doing great.

BTW down here in Mexico they were selling a brand new GC in $100 in final sale, one week later it was still there in $90, 2 weeks later it wasnt there I asked the salesman, the thing was under the desk gathering dust, the guy put it there because it was taking space on the the shelf he offered it to me in $75... I had the money and I didnt bought it.
I guess is still there... it must be $60 by now.

Oh yeah, Nintendo is doing great and just wait til sony releases their handheld they will do so much better.

Re:Nintendo's Image

[Anonymous Coward]

One could argue it's not as easy to copy GameCube games... Ok, let's face it, in some places (like China) copyright infringement is rampant. The GameCube was designed to stop some infringement, but I don't know how effective that was.

Re:Nintendo's Image

[Anonymous Coward]

Great, now all they have to do is release a version of the GameCube running Linux and they'll beat Microsoft.

Re:Nintendo's Image

[Anonymous Coward]

I like the GameCube better than the PS2. But I liked the PSX better than the N64. I liked several games on the N64, but I bought more games for the PSX. (I think I bought a few of them on a whim). I bought a PSX before I got an N64 and I received a GameCube long before I was given a PS2. My theory is that whichever console I bought first became my dominant console. Maybe it was because I had a larger initial collection of games for the-system-I-bought-first and that drove me to keep it plugged-in more and buy games for it.

Re:Nintendo's Image

[unclethursday]

I went to the one before the launch (September 2001), and we had free Smirnoff Ice and skimpy clothed girls walking around on the 21+ night, with an after party at a local nightclub until 5 AM.

;-p

Thursdae
Lush

Re:Nintendo's Image

[unclethursday]

That and the fact that they stopped manufacturing it, its practically unavailable in several countries, it has been number 3 in sales worldwide

If you stop listening to Microsoft and Sony press releases, then you'd realize the Xbox is, in fact, in third place worldwide. Just not by a whole lot. The Xbox has maybe a 2 million unit lead in the world outside of Japan over the GameCube. The GameCube has over a 2.5 million unit lead in Japan over the Xbox.

If we do the math, we see a 2.5 million lead, minus a 2 million lead still leaves the GameCube with a 500k lead. Not a lot, but the GC certainly isn't in third place at the moment, worldwide.

Thursdae

Re:Nintendo's Image

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't appeal to a more mature audience

Stop that. I am twenty-five years old, and I am sick and tired of the insulting insinuation that I must be immature because I like to play games that have colors in them. If you want to count this as a failing, then say something more accurate, like "They don't appeal to the baser instincts of adolescent males."

</rant>

Standard Anti-Nintendo Rhetoric

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmph, one day we get an article on how Gamecube making a comeback, and then the next day, we get an article on how Nintendo is losing it's competitive edge!

To stay on topic:

the Standard Anti-Nintendo Rhetoric:

1) Nintendo games are too childish.

2) Nintendo games aren't original, games are rehashes of Mario, Zelda, Kirby, etc.

My answers:

1) Nintendo is marketing globally, and will pretty much stay that way. To market globally, you market a 'family' game. I doubt Nintendo will ever change that. Perhaps it won't get such a large market audience in North America or Europe because of how americans like their entertainment (violence and sex), but it allows Nintendo to have their product appeal to the world. I think Nintendo is concerned with a Japanese audience foremost, followed by a secondary North American market. What it seems like they're doing is letting the third party develop for the North America market.

2) Mario, Zelda, Kirby all have longevity spanning back to the Famicom. How many other videogame characters have done that and have sold that many games? How many Sonic Karts, Sonic Golfs, Sonic Tennis games are there to compare it to? Oh, how about Halo Golf? It's about franchise longevity and how wisely you use the franchise.

Re:Standard Anti-Nintendo Rhetoric

[lp_bugman]

* Oh, how about Halo Golf? *

That sound like a great idea. of golf bals you use granades!. An instead of holes you use people. when you blow up they face then you score!

Re:Standard Anti-Nintendo Rhetoric

[Anonymous Coward]

IMO Nintendo's problem is one of image. They have built a family image that, while successful, have also alienated their older fans. I think they are in denial of this, and their resistance to cater to an older audience is hurting them. Nintendo could benefit from some major re-engineering about their company behavior and business processes. Maybe they should open a new brand name where they can publish mature titles without tarnishing the Nintendo name, just like Disney does with their movies.

hardware?

[Jonny 290]

Given Nintendo's ability to create good hardware

This statement perplexes me. How can you equate overheating N64's, asinine controllers, stupid battery backups in your stupid carts, etc. good hardware?

Nintendo admitted that they fuck stuff up on purpose with the Advance SP. WHY did you remove the ordinary, industry-standard, easy to use 1/8" headphone connector, Nintendo? Oh yeah. So you could trick us into buying "the perfect game boy" and then rip us for $15 for your stupid fucking cable.

Re:hardware?

[clu76]

and then rip us for $15 for your stupid fucking cable.

The cable is only $5.

Re:hardware?

[Blackknight]

The point is you shouldn't have to buy a special cable at all. I should be able to pick up any pair of headphones and plug them in. No muss, no fuss.

Re:hardware?

[CasulPoster]

N64 had it's shortfalls, and the controller was not one of them (how can you complain about the N64 controller when you had the XBoX and Dreamcast controllers?).

Secondly, while carts offer far less data storage as a CD/DVD/GD can hold, they're faster for data transfer, and don't require a separate memory storage device (which I used to think was an absolutely absurd concept and a total scam). Not to mention that carts as a single unit are more intuitive (especially to kids) than a CD + Memory Card combo.

And Nintendo didn't "admit" they "fucked stuff up on purpose". That's a very loaded statement. They didn't have to "admit" anything, it's not like they put it in the spec, and it was obviously done "on purpose" - it's not like they done plum forgot, hurr hurr.

Nintendo has consistently put out amazing hardware with a few caveats :
1) Due to licensing issues, they have fewer games and fewer quality developers for each platform
2) The cartridge's largest downfall is that it's extremely expensive (sometimes upwards for $40 more per game) than CD storage media. So by not jumping on the CD with the N64, they were behind technologically for the price others were offering for larger games.
3) In the latest generation of consoles, Nintendo's came out last. The system is considered much easier to develop for than PS2 or XBoX - but both those systems already had established consumer bases by the time the Cube came out.

I don't agree with their *decision* to leave out the headphone jack, but I wouldn't be so quick to pin it on their incompetence.

Re:hardware?

[mr.capaneus]

Even without a standard headphone jack, the Gameboy Advance SP is one of the absolute most badass things I have ever owned. The size is perfect. It is light. It has a rechargeable battery that lasts 10 hours. I thought the regular Gameboy Advance was pretty decent but the SP completely blew it out of the water.

Re:hardware?

[Boglin]

stupid battery backups in your stupid carts

I love that being forced to pay $15 for a cable that you just need for headphones is stupid, but NOT charging me $25 for a memory card to save my #$^%ing game is also stupid.

Re:hardware?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's your point? Don't you have to pay to watch DVDs on an X-Box, even though it should theoretically be able to play them out of the box? What about Sony's poor quality Playstations that tend to break down after a few years, essentially forcing you to buy a new one?

I'm not saying that I agree with having to buy a cable. However, if you're damning Nintendo because of their hardware, then by all rights you should be damning Sony and Microsoft too.

Re:hardware?

[Guppy06]

"This statement perplexes me. How can you equate overheating N64's, asinine controllers, stupid battery backups in your stupid carts, etc. good hardware?"

It was good enough for Sony. There is nothing that Sony did to their PSX/PS2 controller that Nintendo didn't do first. Even the basic premise is a rip-off of the SNES controller (or is it coincidence that Sony made the first non-Nintendo console ever to have a "Select" button on the controller?)

Re:hardware?

[PainKilleR-CE]

I love that being forced to pay $15 for a cable that you just need for headphones is stupid, but NOT charging me $25 for a memory card to save my #$^%ing game is also stupid.

Let me see, for every RPG I bought on the NES I paid $60 instead of the normal $40-50 for a new game. So, assuming I bought 3 RPGs, I already paid more than I did for a memory card. The added cost in almost every case was due almost entirely to the added cost of producing the cartridges with the battery backup system with enough memory for the save files. Add in the handful of games at the time that included battery backup and weren't RPGs, and you might see where I'm going.

I would've killed for a memory card every time I forgot to note the difference between a 0 and an O when I wrote down the codes for Metroid. It would've been so nice if I could actually turn off Castlevania and then start where I left off when I came back.

All of that being said, the memory card I got with Animal Crossing is barely big enough for the game, which means it's nice I got the card with it, but sad that this is the standard sized memory card for the system (though I bought the bigger memory card when I bought the system). It's also nice that I've managed to pick up at least one other game at less than $50 that came with a memory card.

The one that really pissed me off was when my DreamCast VMU battery died, but then some third party memory card I picked up still works fine so I only lost my Soul Calibur data. Of course, the XBox hard drive seems to be working the best for me, but then if I want to take my game data somewhere I still could use a memory card (and that's pretty much exactly why they sell them for XBox).

Re:hardware?

[Anonymous Coward]

I dont know what crappy VMU you are using, but when the battery dies you dont lose the saves.

Re:Edge? What edge?

[Anonymous Coward]

The one they lost, of course. Silly human.

that headphone cable is all of $0.99

[raygundan]

You can find those headphone cables for $0.99. I bought mine from a reseller like success-hk.com or lik-sang.com-- i have forgotten which one now. Get all your GBA SP pals together and do one big order to save on shipping.

Not having the headphone jack built-in is pretty silly, though. But PLEASE don't go justifying Nintendo's stupidity by paying them $15 for their intentional feature-pruning.

Cartidge not a realy bad choice!

[lp_bugman]

You are forgeting about the rest of the wold.
I for one have seen in Mexico
How 95% of more of the games sold in retail are CDR. They are mass produced and each PSX game is sold for about $2 usd.

Nintendo knowing about piracy problems decided against using standard media because of logical piracy problems.
If you search for N64 games in Mexico again you will find that most of them are original! some of them been cheap jap imports. But is just not as easy or cheap to duplicate they games.

that time again...

[(trb001)]

It's apparently that time of year again (quarterly, right?) when someone decides Nintendo has had it. And it amazes me that it's always for one (or more) of the same reasons...small number of games, lack of originality, lack of FPS games, it isn't the , etc.

Nintendo has a niche. It occupies and fulfils that niche extremely well. Other consoles aren't going to take its niche. Its niche (two, really) is 1) Game Boy, 2) fun, non serious games. There haven't been competitors for it since Sega's handheld that died out (but was arguably better than the Game Boy...little larger, backlit, etc). The backwards compatibility of the GB ensures that people will keep buying it since there are quality games of all genres represented that you can get for CHEAP (read: under $10 on eBay).

Gamecube would have to be my choice, if only because the XBox and PS2 seem to be copying the PC mentality of games, only without the control interface (I like the mouse). Playing the PS2 is fun, but it's fun in the same way Quake was fun. Nintendo opens a completely separate world, one that you can only get (well done, at least) on consoles.

Mostly, that's side scrolling arcade games, what Nintendo did FAMOUSLY back in the 80's/90's. With exception to Commander Keen, I haven't played a lot of side scrolling PC games that I really dug. Mega Man, Castlevania, Mario, Life Force, all these are side scrolling games that were/are Nintendo 's bread and butter. They aren't complicated, don't involve every button and you can play for just a few minutes. There are still lots of people that like them, so Nintendo isn't going away anytime soon.

--trb

Yes, nintendo is in trouble.

[AzraelKans]

Anyway you look at it, Nintendo is pointing at the wrong direction.
Kids dont like "kiddie" games anymore: They make only kiddie titles and consoles.
Gamers are incursionating in the "online" play: they dont want to go "online" with any title.
Gamers today apreciate games which take on more mature topics: they dont allow real mature titles on their console.
Most consoles use standard formats to cut on expenses :they use propietary formats which are more expensive.
They are doing very well on the handheld market because they are the only competetive handheld out there: Sony is releasing their handheld soon (think ps1 portable) .
They have always had support by japanese users over american companies: sony is also a japanese company and is supported by a much larger number of game companies (american and japanese) and users.

Nintendo has always somehow swam against the current and it has worked (for several reasons) but they just cant keep doing that, gamers are not impressed by some original kiddie games using franchises 10+ years old. Sega tried to do the same for years (with sonic and the gang) and at the end they realized they couldnt sale consoles just based in a set of characters.

Nintendo has 2 choices
a.)They realize they are in fact in trouble (no matter how much they are doing now with the GBA) and REALLY change their ways.

b)ignore it and continue working like they have done for manny years (which is exactly what sega did) if they do that though, in less than 3 years (almost sure) we will see a Mario or zelda game for a non nintendo console.

until now, it looks like they are going for b)

Ps. In an interview in EGM with a nintendo representative about the PSP he mentioned "Im surprised they didnt showed a model or something , just a large list of specs, Im surprised, why sony did that? are they having some problems or something? [laughs]".
IMO It gave me the impression they think the psp handheld is just vaporware, they actually think that sony cant create a handheld? thats so naive it hurts.

Re:Yes, nintendo is in trouble.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nintendo has a niche. It occupies and fulfils that niche extremely well. Other consoles aren't going to take its niche. Its niche (two, really) is 1) Game Boy, 2) fun, non serious (not just for kids) games. There haven't been competitors for it since Sega's handheld that died out (but was arguably better than the Game Boy...little larger, backlit, etc). The backwards compatibility of the GB ensures that people will keep buying it since there are quality games of all genres represented that you can get for CHEAP (read: under $10 on eBay).

Re:Yes, nintendo is in trouble.

[PainKilleR-CE]

Anyway you look at it, Nintendo is pointing at the wrong direction.
Kids dont like "kiddie" games anymore: They make only kiddie titles and consoles.

You're right in that pre-teens and teens don't like 'kiddie' games, and that it takes a little while to convince some 20-somethings otherwise. Unfortunately, you're wrong in stating that Nintendo only makes those types of games and consoles. The majority of their titles are aimed at the widest possible audience, which often gives them a 'kiddie' label, but the titles themselves are in no way restricted to kids in terms of appeal and gameplay.

Gamers are incursionating in the "online" play: they dont want to go "online" with any title.

Interesting choice of words. If I understand what you're trying to say, the numbers don't really back you up here. Consoles aren't going online in huge percentages. As much as I'd like to see the GameCube have more support online, it's up to the developers. Nintendo did the same thing Sony did with their online offering (offer the adapters and let developers decide how to do it), but Nintendo is only using it in their own games for LAN play, while Sony's using it for Everquest. The console market is just far behind the PC in terms of getting gamers online. Nintendo's shown no signs of abandoning online gamers, they just aren't supporting it heavily the way MS does.

Gamers today apreciate games which take on more mature topics: they dont allow real mature titles on their console.

Where's any reference that Nintendo has not allowed a mature title on the GameCube? There're a handful of them on the system that people bring up over and over again, so I'll spare you there. But where's the title that Nintendo refused to allow?

Most consoles use standard formats to cut on expenses :they use propietary formats which are more expensive.

What's the price difference between a small DVD and a regular sized DVD? Sony had more than expenses on their mind when they developed both the PS1 and the PS2, as they have products in other markets that they want to tie into. Nintendo ties into their GBA, Sony ties into Sony Pictures and Sony Music. Microsoft wants your living room, nothing new there. Nintendo wants you to play their games.

They are doing very well on the handheld market because they are the only competetive handheld out there: Sony is releasing their handheld soon (think ps1 portable) .

No one else has managed to even get a foothold in the handheld market even in Japan, where plenty of other handhelds have been released, including a previous Sony handheld (think PS1 connections and the whole deal, called the PocketStation iirc, just like GBA-GC link capability). Nintendo is also working on a next-generation handheld, as the GBA has been out for quite some time.

They have always had support by japanese users over american companies: sony is also a japanese company and is supported by a much larger number of game companies (american and japanese) and users.

OK, I think I understand what you're saying, it almost makes sense.

Nintendo has always somehow swam against the current and it has worked (for several reasons) but they just cant keep doing that, gamers are not impressed by some original kiddie games using franchises 10+ years old. Sega tried to do the same for years (with sonic and the gang) and at the end they realized they couldnt sale consoles just based in a set of characters.

Sonic was never anywhere near as strong a brand as Mario was, and Sega had a number of other factors involved in their demise. Sega almost had more failed consoles than Nintendo's had consoles at all, and almost as many failed add-ons to their consoles. Not to mention that their (Sega's) arcade division was losing money left and right, and that they had depended on their arcade titles as the source of new console titles (and console sales) for years. Sega was bleeding m

Reason for lack of headphone jack

[Vaevictis666]

Compare the GBA SP and your standard GBA. Look at the sizes. Notice that there's a LOT less room inside the SP than there is in the GBA. The reason there's no headphone jack is that it simply wouldn't FIT inside the SP case. I could've sworn I read that on a Gamespy article somewhere...

Calling you out...

[psxndc]

I'm not a raging fanboy, honest. There are very very few great games IMHO for the GC. But seriously, what didn't you like about Metroid? I won't even reply or try to defend it. I am simply curious as to what you thought it lacked.

psxndc

Re:Calling you out...

[Mike Mentalist]

But seriously, what didn't you like about Metroid? I won't even reply or try to defend it. I am simply curious as to what you thought it lacked.

I am not saying that I didn't like it, as I did. But it certainly wasn't as good as most GC fans made out. Not being able to strafe was immensley annoying. I know it had a lock-on for combat, but you couldn't strafe when moving around - so you didn't have as much control over yourself as you needed. If I needed to make an adjustment to my postition I had to move backwards and then forwards again.

Re:Calling you out...

[mr.capaneus]

Actually, if you hold down L you will strafe.

Re:Calling you out...

[Mike Mentalist]

Actually, if you hold down L you will strafe

But then I cannot turn. I meant that you cannot turn and strafe at the same time.

Re:Calling you out...

[mr.capaneus]

I found that somewhat irritating as well but it was mostly made up for by the ability to lock onto enemies. Until some kind of keyboard/mouse setup is widely supported for console games, we are going to be stuck with awkward controls. Of the console FPSs that I have played (which is not that many) I thought the controls in Metroid Prime were the best.

Re:Calling you out...

[Anonymous Coward]

I much preferred Turok's controls. I used them for Goldeneye as well (control setup 1.4, I forget the lewd name they had).

I could fire, switch weapons, open doors, walk, and aim without taking my finger off any of the buttons.

Halo Golf...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, how about Halo Golf?

Does meleeing a Runt with the rocket launcher count?

So I decided to buy a Game Cube

[Snowmit]

As a dedicated PC gamer, I've been spending a lot of time lately trying to decide which of the three consoles I should buy. I only have a medium sized budget so I can't buy all three or anything.

I'll never understand all of the arguments that you shouldn't get a Game Cube because it doesn't have very many titles. I don't want very many titles, I just want about six great titles a year. My pocket book can't take much more, what with the PC gaming habit and the rent and food and all the other stuff.

On top of that, a big chunk of the best games for Xbox and PS2 will make their way to the PC at some point (GTA, Halo, and so on). Often with a better control scheme. I really don't want to plunk down a bunch of money for redundancy.

Game Cube, here I come.

Re:So I decided to buy a Game Cube

[bildstorm]

I most whole-heartedly concur. That's why I got a GameCube. My younger siblings have all three and with the titles I've played, I've preferred the feel of the GameCube controller and found that without too much work I can find a good game to play on the GameCube. Note that I also used to sell all three of these systems at EB Games.

When it comes to gaming, if it's complex and I can't get out and get back in quickly, I want it to be a PC game where I can stare at my high refresh-rate monitor (or LCD that's coming) for hours on end and not get yelled at. Console games should be games for when friends come over, when I have a little time to kill, or when I'm too lazy to get off the couch.

From an industry perspective

[lehyeong]

Sega showed us it takes more than originality in game design to survive in the console industry. It takes a viable platform and large installed user base. Sony just announced it's shipped over 60 million PS2. Nintendo announced that it sold 15 million GBA and hopes it'll sell 6 million GC by March 2004. Granted console sales alone are no gauge of the financial health of a game company, but while Sony touts its online strategy with EA Sports currently exclusive support, it's penetration of the Middle East/Europe market, all Nintendo can talk about is its GBA-GC link (whoop-de-doo, "wait, you're telling me that I can play a portable game system in MY OWN HOME? Wow. What's next? A park full of mobile homes that don't go anywhere?") and its next big console (which they should call the Osbourne-2). Not helping is Nintendo's reputation for arrogant indifference towards the interests of 3rd party developers (the paternalistic "Seal of Quality" for the NES, keeping the cartidge system when 3rd parties were clamoring for a CD format, an extremely litigous culture) survives, despite Nintendo's attempts to rehabilitate its image among game developers. At the last Game Developer's Conference, Sony had a HUGE booth and their head of developer relations ran his ass off meeting with developers. Nintendo (to quote gignews.com) "acted as if North American developers were about as relevant as airline customer service." And what if players don't want to play Pikmin, Warioware or Metroid Prime? Is it their fault that they want games they see on other consoles? If Mario, Zelda, F-Zero GX, Metroid, Resident Evil 0, Final Fantasy Chronicles and all the other GC exclusive titles haven't convinced a console buyer to to buy a GC, nothing will. With 80,000 (or 800,000 which still sucks) GC sales in the last quarter, you can basically assume that anyone who's would buy a GC for exclusive games has already bought one. Now they have to expand their appeal to everyone else. Nintendo has to understand that gamers buy what they want to play, not what Nintendo thinks that they want to play. It's fine for Nintendo to make innovative, original games the "Nintendo way" but they can't continue to turn a blind eye to the success that 3rd party support has brought PS2 as a platform.

Re:From an industry perspective

[Guppy06]

"Sega showed us it takes more than originality in game design to survive in the console industry. It takes a viable platform and large installed user base."

Specifically, Sega showed us what can happen to a company that has a history of totally abandoning its hardware (and customers) in the middle of its lifespan. Since Nintendo persists on keeping its consoles around long after most other companies would have moved on, the Sega model is misapplied.

Re:From an industry perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

60 million PS2?
This number dosnt include all PSX/PS1 sales as well as replacement PS2 units.
Some people have had to buy upwards of 3 PS2 consoles because of shitty construction/parts.
Not a heart warming number when you look into the reality it represents.

If it were 60 Million Ps2 units inthe world most working I'd be impresed.

F-Zero GX

[metamatic]

If you think F-Zero GX is good, you should get the PS2 back from your brother and try Wipeout Fusion...

Re:F-Zero GX

[the_riaa]

You can't be serious. While yes, Wipeout Fusion was a decent game, it comes nowhere near F-Zero GX in terms of track design, depth, racing challenge, replay value, unlockables, and overall fun factor. I was a bit skeptical about F-Zero GX at first, but after a week of it, I couldn't put it down. Hell, it was so good, it made my brand new copy of Soul Calibur 2 sit idly on the shelf. F-Zero X, on the N64, was mediocre. In those days, Wipeout and the Extreme-G series of games got better than F-Zero, but with this latest outing, the Sega-Nintendo co-production blows them away. The real PS2 challenge to F-Zero GX will be the upcoming XGRA - we'll see how it fares.

Re:F-Zero GX

[metamatic]

Hmm, my feeling about F-Zero GX was that the controls were awful. There was no sense that the vehicle had any momentum at all. Maybe it's partly the Nintendo controllers that are the problem.

Re:F-Zero GX

[blincoln]

I thought the controls were excellent. Did you use the built-in calibration feature?

I'm hardly a bad-ass gamer (I had to use an Action Replay to make it through Devil May Cry), but I was able to finish all four F-Zero GX cups on Master difficulty and all but one of the story missions on Hard difficulty with a bit of practice.

GX is definitely my favourite game so far this year. The only one that I know is going to overtake it is Defiance.

Re:F-Zero GX

[Anonymous Coward]

...but does he blow? Here, do mine.

The Billion Dollar Question

[clu76]

What would it take for Nintendo to get their Edge back?

Nintendo's situation in different levels (opinion)

[Metroid72]

1. Games: In this area, I believe that even though they posess the most valuable set of game characters, many of the old gamers perceive that recent games have been updates to newer technologies (3D, etc), but the esence is the same. Since these fans have grown and their interest have changed, that enforces the 'kiddie-game' perception. Maybe Nintendo should have anticipated that their client base grew older and had other needs. Another problem is that current technology demand for longer development times and it's becoming very hard to keep a constant flow of successful games coming down the pipe. On the positive end, newer franchises are being established (Pikmin, Animal Crossing, etc); to expand Nintendo has been investing in indie studios through the Yamauchi foundation and is working with second parties (Silicon Knights) and 3rd parties as Capcom, Namco (ending the long feud) and Sega to bring more games based on their franchised.
Nintendo's stance against certain types of games (GTA and derivatives come to mind) is hurting the company's image. Personally I think that a Nintendo system is better off without GTA, but If I had Nintendo stock, I'd rather have it.
Bottomline: Keep the old franchises going, to capture the new gamers, create new franchises for grown-up gamers.

2. Innovation: I think this is the Big N's biggest asset, the R&D departments and Miyamoto leading the pack are yet to be responsible of many technical innovations. Gameplay innovations will keep coming, however, how 'risky' this innovations are, it will be questionable.
Bottomline: Gory, soft-porn titles with great game play ain't coming from Nintendo.

3. Hardware Strategy: The hardware strategy depends on the Nintendo's overall objective - Do they want to be number one, or do they want to simply be profitable. To be number one, it seems that you must combine DVD/DVR capabilities and online play (to cover most bases), but this implies not being strong in any category.
Bottomline: The next console should play DVDs, keep the mini-DVD format to keep piracy at bay.

4. Online Play: Doing this or not depends on the lessons learned from this generation. Getting in later means developing competencies outside the core area.

5. Culture: A few years ago it was a fact that Japanese companies made better games than US companies, but that's changing, US companies are making great games and they understand American pop culture, that leads to games that are a better 'fit' to american audiences. Many of the things that we see in japanese games might be percieved as childish too. That influences US sales and market penetration.

In general, Nintendo has many challenges ahead, but they must decide if they want to be number one. If not, I can see them staying as a very successful company in Japan, with limited success in the US in a very particular market segment.
Any Ideas?

Nintendo is doing fine...

[Cap-America]

Nintendo is doing fine, if anything what they need to do is open their doors a bit more to 3rd party developers, having more 3rd party games would be cool but at the same time I don't want them to go the way of the PS2 and have a HUGE library where most of the games are just crap and you need to sort threw the crap to find the good games.

I personally own Animal Crossing, Beach Spikers, Batman Vengeance, Bomberman Generation, Bloddy Roar: Primal Fury, Capcom vs SNK 2 EO, Darkened Skye, Evolution Worlds, F-Zero GX, Gauntlet Dark Legacy, Godzilla: Destroy All Monsters Melee, LoZ: OoT, LoZ: WW, Lost Kingdoms, Lost Kingdoms 2, Luigi's Mansion, Metroid Prime, PSO, Resident Evil 0, Resident Evil, Resident Evil 2, Resident Evil 3, Skies of Arcadia Legends, Sonic Adventure DX, Sonic Adventure 2 Battle, Sonic Mega Collection, Soul Caliber II, Super Monkey Ball, Super Monkey Ball 2, Super Smash Bros. Melee, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3, Ultimate Muscle, and X-Men Next Dimension.

and I've enjoyed every single one of them. So don't tell me Nintendo has a poor library, on PS2 and PSOne I only own a total of 11 games. Xbox... you know what I have yet to see a game that I want on it that I can just wait for the PC version to come out. (Halo and SW:KotoR) I think thats one reason why I modded it and turned it into a Linux box.

If Nintendo where to just open up a bit more like back in the NES days I think they would be able to do almost as good as the PS2

Re:Nintendo is doing fine...

[Saige]

Hmm... have you played Eternal Darkness? I don't see it on your list, and I see you have the Resident Evil series. If not, you really should give it a try - play it in the dark for a real horror experience.

Of course, by now, I'm sure you've heard plenty of people recommending the game to you, and perhaps you rented/sold it... just making sure, it is a great game. I was so disappointed when it was over...

Re:Nintendo is doing fine...

[Cap-America]

Oh ya, almost forgot I owned that one, maybe its time I asked my friend for my copy back. =P Ya Eternal Darkness is a great game, I still prefer RE over it, but its still a great game none the less.
I also had Star Wars: Rouge Leader but I sold it to a friend who couldn't find a copy. I Can't wait for the sequel the Demo for it is freaken awesome!

Re:Nintendo is doing fine...

[mink]

Try Cubivore, it's kinda short but quite fun.

Why all the Nintendo doomsday predictions?

[thelenm]

Why are we constantly seeing these claims that Nintendo is lost, that it's doing poorly, etc.? What is it that they're supposedly doing wrong? Is it their half-billion dollars in profits this past year? Is it their lack of laggy online games which only a small percentage of gamers even care about? Is it their lack of dime-a-dozen shoot 'em ups with snazzy graphics and nothing else? Maybe it's because they actually know how to make games that are fun, challenging, and interesting despite the crapflood of mediocrity that the game industry has become.

Come on Nintendo, get with the times. Don't you read Slashdot? No one wants what you're selling. The higher your profits go, the closer you are to your doom.

"M" rating != Matrure Gamer

[August_zero]

most guys don't want to be caught playing something like Mario Golf or Mario Party, when there are other games geared more toward what males are looking for, which is action, fighting, and girls. Games like Grand Theft Auto and DOA Extreme Beach Volleyball

Well I am a guy, and I don't have a problem with other guys seeing me play those games. Most all of my guy friends like these games as well. Most of our significant others enjoy playing these games with us as too. What better kind of game is there than one you can curl up on the couch with your girl friend and play? Sure we like GTA and what some mouth-breathers like to think are "adult games" like Resident Evil and DOA, but a game is a game, if its enjoyable and entertaining then its worth playing no matter how kiddie or "fruity" the game seems to the casual observer. Playing a "Mature" game doesn't make you mature just as playing a kiddie game doesn't suddenly make you revert into a child.

People who make character judgements based on the games people like are not worth the time of day anyway. If you have friends that feel the need to call you names for playing Mario Golf, you need some better friends. When I see somebody playing the newest Tomb Raider game i try not to hold it against them, and they shouldn't hold the fact that I played a 4 player game of drunken Mario Party the night before against me.

Least Popular?

[BTWR]

Is it just me, or does the gamecube seem to be the most popular system here on /.?

I mean, slashdot is not the average users' demographic, but it always just seems to me that a LOT of people here have a gamecube...

Re:Least Popular?

[PainKilleR-CE]

I think there's also a more-than-average number of people here that own all 3 (+ DC) systems.

In other words, it's a fairly normal hardcore gamer demographic that is posting heavily on games.slashdot.org.

I also think it's getting more common for people to have more than one console as the PS2 is getting long in the tooth, and the 20-something age group is currently the people that grew up with the Atari 2600 and NES. The price of the GC along with the nostalgia factor may lend itself towards a lot of purchases by people looking for a 2nd console.

Most of the people I work with that own consoles are 30-somethings with HDTVs and an XBox w/ Live, and no PS2, or 20-somethings with a PS2 considering an XBox or GameCube.

Have they lost their edge...

[Anonvmous Coward]

...or have they opted to stay out of the hype fest?

Ever notice how much more practical Nintendo is? Ever notice that their audience follows them no matter who the competitors are? Ever notice that Nintendo titles constantly sell in the millions?

Okay, Nintendo may not be on top, but they're in a much more secure position than Sony and Microsoft are. Either one of those companys could suddenly 'lose' to a newcomer who sells the right mix of hardware and hype. Nintendo's pretty much a sure hit as long as the keep the titles coming. It's like they're their own market.

Frankly, it's hard to imagine having an XBOX and a PS2. But it's not so difficult imagining anybody having a GameCube and XBOX/PS2.

I just hope Nintendo doesn't go the way of Sega. I hated Sega in the 16 bit days, but in light of Sony and Microsoft, I desperately want them back. At least they made their own cool titles.

The problem

[drewmca]

I don't think Nintendo is going away anytime soon but I think they have lost some of their edge. I think they get a bit arrogant. They make fantastic first party games, hands-down the best first party offering of any console. I don't think that's too arguable, even if you don't like the games themselves (there are a lot of games I don't like but that I'll respect for their quality). But,

1) They insist they don't need an online strategy. Microsoft's online strategy is helping sell xboxes. It's helping sell EA sports games on PS2. Why would you want to ignore this potential market and get experience in it prior to the next generation?
2) They keep insisting that GBA connectivity is somehow innovative. I'm sorry, but GBA connectivity is nothing more than a shameless marketing gimmic. NOTHING more. "Look here! This game is innovative because if you buy it twice, one version for your GC, one version for your GBA, you get a mini-map in the GC version! You don't need the minimap to finish the game, but hey! It's INNOVATIVE! We're making an easy game even easier!" C'mon, that's not innovation. Back to point #1, Microsoft's XSN sports thing is actually innovative. If you don't know what this is, look into it before you tell me I'm wrong.
3) They insist on going their own way with media. It cost them dearly in the last generation, when they kept cartridges around. Sure, cartridges had advantages, but there were severe limitations, too. They spurned DVD support, which was a big deal this generation, since DVDs were just catching on when the consoles started coming out. Also, smaller discs for piracy protection? At the cost of storage room, meaning poorer textures in a lot of games? If I'm making the decision as a buyer, I'll opt for more storage space, better textures, and more FMV over piracy protection; you can't sell me on piracy protection because that's just you covering your own ass. That's like trying to tell me I should buy a Ford over a Chevy because Ford's corporate offices have a better alarm system.
4) A long, infamous, and continuing history of poor relations with third party developers. They've lost a lot in the past due to their hardline stance with other developers. Look at what happened to Square, and look how important Square became to Sony. They continually charge more for licensing. There are developers left and right now who are dropping support for GC because of profitability concerns. A lot of those developers suck, but I'm sorry, losing Sega Sports was a HUGE blow. Nintendo's stance is that they make the best games. Ok, but Sony sells the most because they have better relationships with their 3rd party developers, and always will (partly b/c they're more dependent on them).

If you think Nintendo hasn't lost their edge, consider this. How do you think the GC would have done if
1) It had online support half as good as the xbox's
2) You could do actually useful things with GBA connectivity, and you didn't have to buy the same game twice for different platforms
3) It used full-size DVDs and could do DVD playback
4) Nintendo had FULL 3rd party support, and consistently worked for more. In other words, you get all of the great Nintendo games, plus all of the other great games out there that Nintendo doesn't make.

If all of that were true, I think things would be shaping up quite differently. Sure, the GC is fine without all that, and is doing quite well. But a Nintendo with an EDGE would be doing a whole hell of a lot better, and wouldn't continue to cash in on its past. They would be developing games and game add-ons (like online capability) that were innovative, not good. There's a big gap between a GREAT game and an INNOVATIVE game. Nintendo makes a lot of great games, but not a lot of innovative ones, at least not innovation that appeal to a mass market (Pikmin and Animal Crossing are pretty innovative, but don't really appeal to the more mature market that makes up most of the game-buying public. Note that this is true even if you liked those games). I'll always like them for their great games, but man, if they had an edge, if they were truly innovative, and if they weren't so damn mercenary and arrogant, they could be ruling the roost.

Re:The problem

[PainKilleR-CE]

How do you think the GC would have done if
1) It had online support half as good as the xbox's

I have an XBox and it's not online because of the subscription costs, but that's just me. If Nintendo would throw a few bones by having first party titles that supported their online adapter they'd probably get a few more sales, and maybe more third party support of the adapter. As it stands, having 1st party titles support the adapter is the biggest difference between Sony and Nintendo in terms of online offering. The next part is Sony offering the online adapter bundled with the console, which currently isn't working as well as they thought it would.

2) You could do actually useful things with GBA connectivity, and you didn't have to buy the same game twice for different platforms

Like what? In Animal Crossing I can download NES games that I've unlocked to my GBA, and plugging in the GBA gives me access to a small area of the game that isn't otherwise accessable. Metroid is the only case I can think of where you need 2 games to unlock something, and those are 2 different games (though both Metroid titles), and the only big benefit is unlocking a third game (by beating Metroid Fusion and unlocking Metroid in Metroid Prime). The best use of it I've read about so far is Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles, and that one's been slammed by a bunch of people that haven't played it.

3) It used full-size DVDs and could do DVD playback

Well, if I could find sales figures for the Panasonic Q perhaps I could find a good answer for whether or not this effects their market share, since the Q happens to be sold in the market where the GameCube has done the best (even outselling PS2 in some weeks). I don't think the Q's market share is that big, though, especially given the price difference between the Q and the Cube (or the Q and other consoles).

4) Nintendo had FULL 3rd party support, and consistently worked for more. In other words, you get all of the great Nintendo games, plus all of the other great games out there that Nintendo doesn't make.

That's going to take time. Nintendo's been working on getting more 3rd party support for the last few years, and it will take more to get them, especially with the deals that Sony and Microsoft have been giving to 3rd parties (or with them buying up 3rd parties). All it takes to see this is what Nintendo's been getting from 3rd parties that wouldn't work with them at all in the previous generation, ie Square and Namco, and Namco's developing Nintendo franchise titles now.

Re:The problem

[drewmca]

On my second point, there are a few games that require that you purchase both versions. Legend of Zelda and Splinter Cell are two that come to mind. Most of the talk I hear about upcoming GBA connectivity also involves purchasing both versions of a game. The animal crossing thing sounds kind of cool, I admit.

On the third point, I guarantee that the Panasonic Q sales aren't that high. Although DVDs are pretty big in Japan, I don't think Japan went through the same widespread adoption that happened over here. After all, they already had VCD, and the leap between VCD and DVD isn't nearly as big as between VHS and DVD. In the North American market, the biggest one out there, DVD playback would have helped tremendously.

On the fourth point, I disagree that it's going to take some time. It's never going to happen until Nintendo changes their policies and goes on an all out recruitment drive for third party support. I don't think that will ever happen. They made a better effort this time around but it's not enough. Not only will it not "take more time", but as time goes on they're actually losing third party support. They've lost Acclaim, Eidos, and (for me, the big one), Sega Sports. They finally got Square back, but is it too little too late?

Re:The problem

[PainKilleR-CE]

On my second point, there are a few games that require that you purchase both versions. Legend of Zelda and Splinter Cell are two that come to mind.

Which Zelda game? Wind Waker has a lot of extra stuff in the GBA connectivity that can make the game easier (or make it easier to find secrets), which don't require a GBA game. I'll have to check around a bit more to see if there's anything that can be unlocked using Four Swords/Link to the Past in WW.

From what I've read of Splinter Cell, there are some extra levels if you have the GBA game as well as the GameCube game, but there are still extra features that don't require the GBA game. I really don't know how well this pans out, since Splinter Cell isn't really my type of game (or even if it is, previous Tom Clancy games were so bad I decided not to buy any more).

Most of the talk I hear about upcoming GBA connectivity also involves purchasing both versions of a game. The animal crossing thing sounds kind of cool, I admit.

I'll have to look around a bit more I guess, but I'm genuinely not concerned as long as the individual titles are worthwhile without considering the connectivity options.

On the third point, I guarantee that the Panasonic Q sales aren't that high. Although DVDs are pretty big in Japan, I don't think Japan went through the same widespread adoption that happened over here. After all, they already had VCD, and the leap between VCD and DVD isn't nearly as big as between VHS and DVD. In the North American market, the biggest one out there, DVD playback would have helped tremendously.

I really wouldn't know. DVD playback wasn't a consideration when I purchased any of my consoles, but I've used the PS2 as a DVD player recently because it saves me from having to buy a bigger/another A/V switch. I don't like using it as a DVD player because of concerns over the lifetime of PS2 hardware and the poor quality of DVD playback on the unit (that being said, the TV I have it hooked up to is pretty poor anyway).

On the fourth point, I disagree that it's going to take some time. It's never going to happen until Nintendo changes their policies and goes on an all out recruitment drive for third party support. I don't think that will ever happen. They made a better effort this time around but it's not enough.

It's always going to take time. Developers and publishers have to be convinced that Nintendo has a viable platform for their games, and that they will get a decent return on their expenditures. Nintendo has changed their policies, and while they may have to change their policies more, I can't see any justification for them to meet some of the policies that Sony and MS are using to bring in (and sometimes lock in) third parties when there's little for Nintendo to gain from it. Nintendo's brought in more 3rd party developers in a '2nd' party role, which is definitely beneficial both in getting 3rd party cooperation and in profits, as long as they are strong developers. They've also pushed to bring back 3rd parties that previously left, and to reduce the costs to developers on the platform. There's only so much they can really do, and really their failure is only measured in number of titles, not in failures in quality or profitability.

Not only will it not "take more time", but as time goes on they're actually losing third party support. They've lost Acclaim, Eidos, and (for me, the big one), Sega Sports. They finally got Square back, but is it too little too late?

Acclaim and Eidos claimed they weren't making money releasing for the Cube. As others have mentioned before, part of that is because their titles don't have any worse titles to stand out against on the platform, and were often worse on the Cube than on the other platforms for which they had released them. From what's been said on this board, the Sega Sports loss was a technical issue due to the size of the memory cards, though I haven't confirmed that on my own, nor do I entirely believe

FZero-GX: Good Game, Crappy Gameplay

[Cliff]

I'd have to agree with you here. FZero-GX is a great game hampered by crappy gameplay due to a LACK of fine-control on tracks that require it. It doesn't help that I can't progress any further in the game (after completing only the first Grand Prix track) since the last tracks in the next set of races are completely designed to throw you off the track (thus "retiring" you, and you get nothing for the races you did complete if this happens).

It sucks, because everything else about the game is great, and I'd love to be playing it, but I generally play games to be entertained, not frustrated. Sadly, it's the later that game designers seem to be accomplishing with this latest crop of games. Games on the 'cube suffer from this as much as games on the other systems, even the PC [ Yes, I'm looking at you, Tron 2.0 ].

Pikmin 2 pushed back

[TheSnakeMan]

with Mario Kart, Pikmin 2, and their Metal Gear Solid remake, all still coming out this year

Unfortunately, I've read on several sites that Pikmin 2 has been moved to Q2 2004 (may was the prediction). Definitely a disappointment, as it was the one title I was really looking forward to this fall. Almost 2 years later, the game I still play the most on my GC is Pikmin.

To some degree.

[Anonymous Coward]

I would have to say that Nintendo has changed quite a bit in the leap from N64 to Gamecube.

I think a lot of this has to do with the changes in management as well as marketing strategies. They have shown a very large interest in getting thier properties out regularly, but at the expense of first party development.

I don't know exactly why things are so 'different' in this generation, and I expect they will continue to head in this direction for gc2. Who knows though, maybe the Gamecube mario sequal will actually be a true mario game and that classic magic will come back. If miyamoto is more involved, I guess it'd be possible.....

Pikmin was great and nintendoey, so maybe the key here really is the M-factor.

Ironic..

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny how the link to the article about nintendo losing their edge is on the same page as a link to screenshots and coverage of WarioWare for gamecube, probably the most fun game for any system i've played in a long time.

Actually, it depends on the age of PS2?

[phorm]

I've heard this arguement (DVD's don't work well) from several people, but mostly those with older PS2's. I believe that the early PS2's didn't handle DVD's nearly as well as the newer line did. My friend's of several years ago sucked for DVD's, but mine (1 year old) plays 'em just fine.

Re:Actually, it depends on the age of PS2?

[Anonymous Coward]

Gee, I didn't know the IBM PS2 could play DVDs, I thought a 286/386 Processor was WAy too underpowered to play DVDS. ;)

RPG point

[phorm]

Indeed... it would be interesting if one could draft up how many people bought a system for a specific game, or type of game.

I for one looked at PS2 because it had FFX, and I'm a huge fan of the series. Too bad that the FF series stopped at the SNES, because for me it's been a huge part of my gaming experience.

If my PS2 didn't also work as a DVD player, I'd daresay that I perhaps wasted a bit of money buying it just for FFX - though I've recently found a few "bargain" RPG's that seem promising (PS2 lent out to somebody who wanted to play FFX, right now though hehe)

power stone 2

[Anonymous Coward]

Examples? Any games like it (to address the unique part)? What's annoying about it?


Power Stone (and especially Power Stone 2) for Dreamcast are Super Smash Brothers-type fighters that are 3D. The terrain and "weapon drops" are a crucial part of the fight, just like in super smash bros.

For example, there's one powerstone 2 level where you fight on a crumbling airship, which leaves you in freefall, and ends up in a castle overlooking a waterfall, where you can use catapults and tanks on your opponent. And yes, Power Stone 2 is 4 player! There's also an adventure mode where you collect items as you fight, combining them to make new items (for example, Molotov Cocktail + Machine Gun = Flamethrower).

It's one of the best Dreamcast games, if not the best, and it got completely overlooked. I wish they would port it to Gamecube or make a sequel...

GCN?

[britain]

Where did this acronym come from? We're not talking about a fragrance here ["Improbability, by Calvin Klein"]. Do any of these people call it a "Game Cube Nintendo" in real life? I think it's probably many of the same people who call a PlayStation a PSX.

Like Lance Storm said, it's easier to chant three letters. But who's out there chanting?

OT

[La Temperanza]

Halo Babies was destined for awesomeness. I'm thinking of raising money to bankroll its production.