The paper made it through peer review. It was published by Nature, and while the peer review process and closed nature of Nature Publishing may not be perfect the paper was in fact reviewed. However NASA is in go-mode, and they desperately want to find life out there. Maybe when they really get serious about finding life they will send a probe down to Europa and sniff around. No telling what they will find.
Also, arguments in the scientific community are nothing new, and a lot controversy occurs because somebodies research infringes on someone else's predetermined view of things. We still don't know about dark matter very well, or even it exists, we still don't know so many things about almost everything! Text books continue to be updated every year, and the current consensus on big things like String Theory, or whatever are laid down to us as authoritative law, yet rescinded just as quickly when we learn something new. This reminds me of the global warming debate a little bit.
This is a "runaway" wearing rouge? A zombie runaway too? So a zombified runaway is going down the orbital highway wearing too much makeup, or is the headline incorrect?
You're post is precisely why a lot of people think Americans are stupid, uneducated, narcistic snobs whose sole purpose in life is ridiculing others and taking stuff from others that they could not gain by fair competition. But I am sure you will not understand that. And that's the whole reason why people say and think these things.
The correct spelling is narcissistic. And you can think what you will, of course please disregard that correction.
Disagreeing kindly, GOVERNMENTS do have a right to privacy/secrecy, or they wouldn't have need for various classification levels would they? The U.S Government could have announced that they were beginning the Manhattan Project and invited the Japanese and Germans over for sharing of intelligence, but that would have been a bit stupid, considering we were at war with both. In fact Vice President Truman didn't learn of the project until after FDR's death, and his subsequent swearing in as president. I am all for sunshine. Let it shine! However there is a place for things that our enemies don't need to know. Of course it is possible that the Germans and Japanese were just misunderstood back then, just like NK, IRAN, and others are today. Right?
Come on folks, somebody cue the 'Blame America' crowd right now! We need more posts about how much the United States is a bully and sucks don't we? Isn't that a sure way for you to feel some smug satisfaction in the bloviated bits many of seem to post here under the guise of enlightenment? Maybe John Perry Barlow and the EFF can say that this is the front line in the war of free speech but it is not. In fact this whole drama filled event and illegal release of material shows a frankness in our diplomats that is refreshing. It seems that most of you that are yelling the loudest for transparency are conveniently forgetting that whomever uploaded this information did not have permission to do so. Would you mind if someone went through your trash or if a house guest went through your bureau and posted your bank accounts, social security number, the like online? Would you mind if they looked at your email or social networking accounts you have and decided that your wife or husband might need to know about those improper chats you had that bordered on infidelity? So for those of you who happen to be the ones who live in Europe or Asia and dislike the United States because no matter how messed up our system is it is still_better_than_yours and you like to think that big brother United States is the sole evil in the world, try looking in your backyard. In most other countries the release of something like would be a death sentence. There sure are not a lot of leaks coming from China, Russia, Iran, or Venezuela. In fact no matter what these "cables" (what the hell, this isn't 1947!) say, it shows our government is at least engaged, and trying to do its job. You can be angry that at least our government is trying to work on our behalf, maybe because yours doesn't. If anything this about freedom of the press, not free speech, and generally freedom of the press is upheld however freedom of the press can be abrogated by governments and held from disclosure when information is sensitive, classified, or in the national interest. So in closing, this release was handled wrongly on so many levels, and in reality it does nothing to help anything in the world. And, Mr. Barlow, I respected you once for being an ok songwriter, however if this is the front line of a war on freedom, then perhaps my quill will remain tucked away. The United States is not perfect, and never has been, but we are a messy, ugly, somewhat open, mostly good, sometimes bad, work in progress.
The time for grandstanding and media whoring is over.
Some word out on the web, including NASA funded astrobiology teams (there are fourteen), seem to indicate the possibility of them finding something strange here on Mother Earth, probably something in or around Mono Lake according to some people and its arsenic based life forms. Since the major announcement last June by NASA concerning 'Titan and the Case of the Missing Hydrogen'.
In fact one of the ladies on the panel this Thursday is in fact the researcher who is studying possible arsenic based life forms in Mono Lake. I'd say that she found something. One thing for certain, with the embargo we won't know for sure until Thursday.:)
First of I have a degree in Environmental Science. Second, I know the history of this place for the last hundred years. Third it sets of a metal detector. Fourth the largest sample off gassed when I brought it in and washed it with water and dawn dishwashing detergent. That is all I know. I am not, nor do I wish to be making up urban legends. It may well be a sinkhole as I noted in the submission. I didn't expect this to be published on the front page, but you know what? It *is* kinda cool, and for all the name calling by a few of you who feign anger at someone like myself who actually goes out and pokes around rather then sitting in an armchair it doesn't bother me.
This is not in Florida... And no, I won't post lat and longitude because I can see that a lot of people would probably swarm out here. I will continue detecting around the area, looking for more pieces of metal, and maybe even, god forbid go down in the bottom and dig.
For all the constructive posts, thanks. If it is a cave, I want to go in it!
Well, natural gas is now much cheaper, and as a result it looks like building a single nuclear reactor in Maryland is such a risky venture
Natural gas is only cheaper because we are using less of it. As soon as the economy rebounds the price will increase. This is the short sighted view that has gotten us into this mess over the last 30 years.
When the sun isn't shining they can just let all the "World is ending, we must protect Gaia, and Global Warming will eat your baby" types in there. The hot air off of a few hundred of them surely is enough to drive the turbine. Maybe they can clone 'Fesser Gore. Three Al Gores would make plenty of hot air to run the thing at night, and when the sun isn't shining.
So is this story about the black hole, or about the fact that one place got the story right, while another author got confused? Sounds like a hit job to me, and probably better ways to fulfill vendettas.. Just sayin'...
Ahh, we can melt through that with a small self contained probe that is RTG powered. It could be designed it to melt its way in, and climb down the hole as it goes. I don't see that as hard.. It could then release a probe or a number of gliders to roam about. The gliders could even be powered by their own small RTG's which would allow them to be driven!
As far as communications fhrough the ice well there is research in this area like this that utilize high loss. Take this article for instance: "Underwater communications gradually improves."
The robots will talk - in effect, using ultrasound - at distances of up to 5km apart.
One operated for 25 weeks, spending 51 days and traveling more than 450 miles under the ice, before being collected Feb. 26 by the Danish Navy.
Seagliders autonomously find shallow areas in ice in order to surface. Do we know if all of the ice on Europa is 3 kilometers thick? No. Maybe there are shallower, and warmer areas....
And lastly again, we can do a Europa mission in which we first get an orbiter first to identify shallower areas of ice, then we land on surface with a lander and take samples, then in a later mission we try to melt down into the water. We can do this if we wanted to. The only problem is that our agencies would rather focus on Mars. Why is that again?
I didn't say anything about limiting us to Europa, you did. It would be a very good thing to explore not only Europa but the other moons you list. The reason we keep going back to Mars isn't so much for the science because there is a hell of a lot of other and possibly more interesting science that could be better served by going to Europa, or maybe Enceladus. The reason I dismiss Mars outright, on its face, and with no reservations is that given our budget it would be better to let Mars rest for a time, while other missions could be given larger budgets and higher priority.
In short Mars has received a disproportionate number of missions yet
we keep sending rovers and landers to Mars! Have we found life on Mars yet? Have we found liquid water? Have the rovers found water ice? Sure the Mars Polar Lander found some ice, but the rovers aren't up there are they? Other than the pretty pictures what have we learned other than there are a lot of blueberries on Mars, and some dust-devils? What pray tell?
We could learn a lot from Europa because Europa has a small iron core which is heated by tidal friction, and under the the 3km of ice there may in fact be 100-200 kilometers of salt water . Now it is odd, that our space agencies, that claim to be searching for life willfully have ignored Europa other than a few flybys. Of all the planets and moons of this solar system, Europa stands the best chance at harboring life, and a Europa orbiter that incorporated radar and more could have been built and launched 10 years ago. In fact Europa may have more water than all of Earth's oceans combined!
We keep going back to Mars because it is relatively easy, yet as per John F. Kennedy, we should do the hard things, but we don't do we because Mars is just too easy, and the thumb sucking populace loves the pretty pictures. I say focus somewhere else for the next 10 years. Mars has had its time. We can always go back to Mars when we want right? Because as you say, it is so easy..
Europa may well be warm and wet under the layer of ice. In fact Europa probably is, and might in fact harbor life. Can we please forget about Mars? Mars sucks because we keep going there and not really finding anything of importance. I am tired of Mars, there are other, more interesting places to explore.
Actually you don't know that, and any 'rust' on Europa stands an equal or better chance of harboring life than a liquid methane pool on the surface of a frigid celestial body......
Not trying to flame or troll, but these missions keep coming up. Even proposed and not funded like this one to Titan, take away from where we sorely need to explore. Poor Europa languishes! Europa quite possibly has the best odds of actually having something worth the funding of mission; namely life. While I note the Planetary Society has pushed for a Europa mission for what seems like years now, the date of even some weird overly complex multi-national mission in 2020 is suspect.. Why on Earth is a mission to Europa not fast tracked? A craft much like Cassini/Huygens with some radar to actually see under the ice could have been designed, built and launched 10 or 15 years ago. Titan has already had a lander. Cassini is in orbit around Saturn, and while neat and cool, only Enceladus might have life, but the odds of life on Enceladus seem dimmer and more remote. Despite statements that are politically motivated (read: funding) what is the fun factor of going to Titan when we have a fruit before us in Europa that desperately deserves to be explored? I don't know these answers but when you look at the frozen surface of Europa and notice the red striations that appear in cracks in the water ice it sure looks like iron or possibly sulphur, but most likely something along the lines of halobacteria just like this!
Maybe our agencies don't want to find life yet, as some societal and religious aspects of there being life somewhere else would drive the religious folk crazy, or maybe they don't want to contaminate Europa. Whatever the reason they need to get off of their collective rear ends (asses) and do a mission there before even going back to Mars. I just get tired of the new bright and shiny and unpaid for missions, and some of the more dumb funded one that just go in circles snapping images of useless real estate, when Europa truly deserves, on all levels, a serious series of missions that bring light to what resides under the ice.
Why does space exploration have to take a hit when we can spend trillions on everything else? Here is my idea, let GM and Chrysler build the vehicles... After all we own GM and Chrysler.
Seems like a lot of folks are using the program to purchase more efficient cars. Funny how the initial billion in funding jump started new car sales, and stimulated the economy in such a large way. If the initial 4 billion was supplied that was initially asked for we wouldn't be having this discussion. I think both sides of the political aisle see that this program is giving tremendous stimulus bang for the buck. I hate to see a lot of tired, old, and rusty cars going to the crusher but the fuel savings nationally should be measurable. Something like 250,000 new, more efficient cars have already moved, and hopefully this will get factory workers back on the line, working, and paying taxes, while preserving some semblance of U.S industrial capability.
So a project code named "linus' makes the tag sharks think we are all idiots and can't read the article? This has a chance of working. It might be an off chance but anytime Los Alamos is involved you had damn well better put some stock in it. On second thought... Linus made linux, and this was code named 'Linus". Therefore we can now call it Fusex.
Soon everyone will be asking hey.. Does that reactor run Fusex?
Slashdot Mirror
The paper made it through peer review. It was published by Nature, and while the peer review process and closed nature of Nature Publishing may not be perfect the paper was in fact reviewed. However NASA is in go-mode, and they desperately want to find life out there. Maybe when they really get serious about finding life they will send a probe down to Europa and sniff around. No telling what they will find.
Also, arguments in the scientific community are nothing new, and a lot controversy occurs because somebodies research infringes on someone else's predetermined view of things. We still don't know about dark matter very well, or even it exists, we still don't know so many things about almost everything! Text books continue to be updated every year, and the current consensus on big things like String Theory, or whatever are laid down to us as authoritative law, yet rescinded just as quickly when we learn something new. This reminds me of the global warming debate a little bit.
Scientists sure like to argue a lot. :)
No, it is new and you nailed it. A neme is a name and meme combined into one. This may be the first time one has been spotted in the wild. Good catch.
This is a "runaway" wearing rouge? A zombie runaway too? So a zombified runaway is going down the orbital highway wearing too much makeup, or is the headline incorrect?
I am so confused!
Kids these days!!
You're post is precisely why a lot of people think Americans are stupid, uneducated, narcistic snobs whose sole purpose in life is ridiculing others and taking stuff from others that they could not gain by fair competition. But I am sure you will not understand that. And that's the whole reason why people say and think these things.
The correct spelling is narcissistic. And you can think what you will, of course please disregard that correction.
Also, these stupid, uneducated, narcissistic snobs who take from others what they could not (can't) gain by fair means seem seem to have mighty big hearts in the way of charity to be so dumb, greedy and evil. Correct?
Disagreeing kindly, GOVERNMENTS do have a right to privacy/secrecy, or they wouldn't have need for various classification levels would they? The U.S Government could have announced that they were beginning the Manhattan Project and invited the Japanese and Germans over for sharing of intelligence, but that would have been a bit stupid, considering we were at war with both. In fact Vice President Truman didn't learn of the project until after FDR's death, and his subsequent swearing in as president. I am all for sunshine. Let it shine! However there is a place for things that our enemies don't need to know. Of course it is possible that the Germans and Japanese were just misunderstood back then, just like NK, IRAN, and others are today. Right?
Come on folks, somebody cue the 'Blame America' crowd right now! We need more posts about how much the United States is a bully and sucks don't we? Isn't that a sure way for you to feel some smug satisfaction in the bloviated bits many of seem to post here under the guise of enlightenment? Maybe John Perry Barlow and the EFF can say that this is the front line in the war of free speech but it is not. In fact this whole drama filled event and illegal release of material shows a frankness in our diplomats that is refreshing. It seems that most of you that are yelling the loudest for transparency are conveniently forgetting that whomever uploaded this information did not have permission to do so. Would you mind if someone went through your trash or if a house guest went through your bureau and posted your bank accounts, social security number, the like online? Would you mind if they looked at your email or social networking accounts you have and decided that your wife or husband might need to know about those improper chats you had that bordered on infidelity? So for those of you who happen to be the ones who live in Europe or Asia and dislike the United States because no matter how messed up our system is it is still_better_than_yours and you like to think that big brother United States is the sole evil in the world, try looking in your backyard. In most other countries the release of something like would be a death sentence. There sure are not a lot of leaks coming from China, Russia, Iran, or Venezuela. In fact no matter what these "cables" (what the hell, this isn't 1947!) say, it shows our government is at least engaged, and trying to do its job. You can be angry that at least our government is trying to work on our behalf, maybe because yours doesn't. If anything this about freedom of the press, not free speech, and generally freedom of the press is upheld however freedom of the press can be abrogated by governments and held from disclosure when information is sensitive, classified, or in the national interest. So in closing, this release was handled wrongly on so many levels, and in reality it does nothing to help anything in the world. And, Mr. Barlow, I respected you once for being an ok songwriter, however if this is the front line of a war on freedom, then perhaps my quill will remain tucked away. The United States is not perfect, and never has been, but we are a messy, ugly, somewhat open, mostly good, sometimes bad, work in progress.
The time for grandstanding and media whoring is over.
Some word out on the web, including NASA funded astrobiology teams (there are fourteen), seem to indicate the possibility of them finding something strange here on Mother Earth, probably something in or around Mono Lake according to some people and its arsenic based life forms. Since the major announcement last June by NASA concerning 'Titan and the Case of the Missing Hydrogen'. In fact one of the ladies on the panel this Thursday is in fact the researcher who is studying possible arsenic based life forms in Mono Lake. I'd say that she found something. One thing for certain, with the embargo we won't know for sure until Thursday. :)
This is not in Florida... And no, I won't post lat and longitude because I can see that a lot of people would probably swarm out here. I will continue detecting around the area, looking for more pieces of metal, and maybe even, god forbid go down in the bottom and dig.
For all the constructive posts, thanks. If it is a cave, I want to go in it!
Well, natural gas is now much cheaper, and as a result it looks like building a single nuclear reactor in Maryland is such a risky venture
Natural gas is only cheaper because we are using less of it. As soon as the economy rebounds the price will increase. This is the short sighted view that has gotten us into this mess over the last 30 years.
Dammit where is my like button.. oh wait....
I'd agree with you, but then get modded flamebait. Ahh... fuck it.
Space Trolls will ride anything if a buck is involved..
So is this story about the black hole, or about the fact that one place got the story right, while another author got confused? Sounds like a hit job to me, and probably better ways to fulfill vendettas.. Just sayin'...
Ahh, we can melt through that with a small self contained probe that is RTG powered. It could be designed it to melt its way in, and climb down the hole as it goes. I don't see that as hard.. It could then release a probe or a number of gliders to roam about. The gliders could even be powered by their own small RTG's which would allow them to be driven!
As far as communications fhrough the ice well there is research in this area like this that utilize high loss. Take this article for instance: "Underwater communications gradually improves."
The robots will talk - in effect, using ultrasound - at distances of up to 5km apart.
Also, if you look at the Seagliders.. "Seaglider monitors waters from Arctic during record-breaking journey under ice."
One operated for 25 weeks, spending 51 days and traveling more than 450 miles under the ice, before being collected Feb. 26 by the Danish Navy.
Seagliders autonomously find shallow areas in ice in order to surface. Do we know if all of the ice on Europa is 3 kilometers thick? No. Maybe there are shallower, and warmer areas....
And lastly again, we can do a Europa mission in which we first get an orbiter first to identify shallower areas of ice, then we land on surface with a lander and take samples, then in a later mission we try to melt down into the water. We can do this if we wanted to. The only problem is that our agencies would rather focus on Mars. Why is that again?
*nod*
We need to learn a ridiculous amount about a few other places too. But, yeah.. :)
I didn't say anything about limiting us to Europa, you did. It would be a very good thing to explore not only Europa but the other moons you list. The reason we keep going back to Mars isn't so much for the science because there is a hell of a lot of other and possibly more interesting science that could be better served by going to Europa, or maybe Enceladus. The reason I dismiss Mars outright, on its face, and with no reservations is that given our budget it would be better to let Mars rest for a time, while other missions could be given larger budgets and higher priority.
In short Mars has received a disproportionate number of missions yet we keep sending rovers and landers to Mars! Have we found life on Mars yet? Have we found liquid water? Have the rovers found water ice? Sure the Mars Polar Lander found some ice, but the rovers aren't up there are they? Other than the pretty pictures what have we learned other than there are a lot of blueberries on Mars, and some dust-devils? What pray tell?
We could learn a lot from Europa because Europa has a small iron core which is heated by tidal friction, and under the the 3km of ice there may in fact be 100-200 kilometers of salt water . Now it is odd, that our space agencies, that claim to be searching for life willfully have ignored Europa other than a few flybys. Of all the planets and moons of this solar system, Europa stands the best chance at harboring life, and a Europa orbiter that incorporated radar and more could have been built and launched 10 years ago. In fact Europa may have more water than all of Earth's oceans combined!
We keep going back to Mars because it is relatively easy, yet as per John F. Kennedy, we should do the hard things, but we don't do we because Mars is just too easy, and the thumb sucking populace loves the pretty pictures. I say focus somewhere else for the next 10 years. Mars has had its time. We can always go back to Mars when we want right? Because as you say, it is so easy..
Europa may well be warm and wet under the layer of ice. In fact Europa probably is, and might in fact harbor life. Can we please forget about Mars? Mars sucks because we keep going there and not really finding anything of importance. I am tired of Mars, there are other, more interesting places to explore.
+1 insightful
(they're rust -- sorry)
Actually you don't know that, and any 'rust' on Europa stands an equal or better chance of harboring life than a liquid methane pool on the surface of a frigid celestial body......
Maybe our agencies don't want to find life yet, as some societal and religious aspects of there being life somewhere else would drive the religious folk crazy, or maybe they don't want to contaminate Europa. Whatever the reason they need to get off of their collective rear ends (asses) and do a mission there before even going back to Mars. I just get tired of the new bright and shiny and unpaid for missions, and some of the more dumb funded one that just go in circles snapping images of useless real estate, when Europa truly deserves, on all levels, a serious series of missions that bring light to what resides under the ice.
I'll start celebrating when these assholes are in jail and their assets have been seized. I doubt I'll be celebrating any time soon. If ever.
I'll start celebrating when these assholes are in jail and their asses have been seized. I doubt I'll be celebrating any time soon. If ever.
Fixed that for ya...
Why does space exploration have to take a hit when we can spend trillions on everything else? Here is my idea, let GM and Chrysler build the vehicles... After all we own GM and Chrysler.
Cheers
Soon everyone will be asking hey.. Does that reactor run Fusex?
I think you get the point