Can't argue with that. However, I think we'll have to see what happens with the Ovi store...it's not open yet.
IMO, they're going to have to have a cheap solution for the 'poor' developers. They used to have it such that a company would test and sign freeware apps at no cost, but I heard that effort fell-by-the-wayside in recent years. Maybe something like that could be made to work again...
> All these 'decisions' were driven by the wish to develop a proprietary lock-in product that actually failed in the business sense.
Evidence, please.
As an aside, I have to laugh a little at someone saying, in the current world situation, that the free market actually works. The free market world seems to be falling apart, thanks largely to greed and lies. Contrary to what you say, it's the 'directed economies' that seem to be holding it all together (despite over reliance on exported to free markets)....but I prefer not to 'go there' as they say in the US.
You're putting words into my mouth, again, and conveniently ignoring what I did say. I'd like to know what part of what I said that ws factually incorrect.
No, it's you who sound irrational, biased and closed-minded. Choice is bad....rrriiiighhhtt. You can use Open C, Open C++ (not only Symbian C++), and Java - that covers all the languages available for both iPhone OS and Android.
I've only use Symbian C++ though[1] so I can't comment on the other ones apart from to observe that they're available.
If I'm factually wrong, feel free to correct me.
(I didn't know Ruby was on S60 - interesting).
[1] Yes, it wasn't much fun without specific training, but once I educated myself, it made much more sense. Consider it a different language, if you prefer. I think I'd prefer it were called something other than C++ since it isn't all that similar any more.
See here for evidence of binary compatibility across S60 3rd edition releases. Specifically, post number 9 confirms what I say.
Heck, on AllAboutSymbian they claim you can even install S60 3rd edition binaries on devices running S60 5th edition (only the Nokia 5800 at the moment, IINM) - here's one such quote, which is in a discussion about freeware for the Nokia 5800 :
" Use this install file, the version for S60 3rd Edition FP1 phones, until such time as Nokia get round to doing a formal S60 5th Edition release. "
> . the platform sucks to code for. It's a totally non-standard (no exceptions, what?) platform
Oh, and I forgot to mention that Android uses a non-standard version of Java too[1], and at least the standard exists for Java already, so there's less excuse than Symbian C++ has.
[1] I'm not sure how to compare non-standardness, and I don't have much experience of Java, or even Android/Google Java or whatever it's called, so it's difficult for me to comment apart from non-standard is non-standard.
Did you misread my post - or not read it at all? It sounds like the latter.
I didn't make any comment on the quality of Download![1] No, all I said was that it is something they could use to make the Ovi Store accessible to the existing installed base.
Doesn't the prospect of getting your app in front of hundreds of millions of users even interest you? It does me....and, again, you're talking about Symbian C++ and the 'standard' to which you refer didn't exist when it came into being. Also, you can use other languages (Open C, Open C++, Python, Java, web stuff), so you don't even have to put up with that.
Heck, on some stores, you don't even know if your app will make it into the store until you've done all the development work. I sure hope the Ovi Store doesn't do the same thing as them.
Max.
[1]...though I have used it to download useful applications without any problems. I just mentioned that Download! was available for many years before these other stores. Sure, the newer ones are 'better' (supposedly, I've not used them, so I don't know) but having the experience of Download! and the various other stores Nokia has had over the years has to count for something. I hope it at least gives them the experience to make the Ovi Store successful and give us access to a massive existing user base.
Note that most people here are talking about Symbian C++, which is the way it is because it came into being when C++ was very new and didn't regular C++ had various features is has now. If you spend the time to learn (eg training) how it solves the various problems inherent in early C++, then it is quite easy to appreciate it - in my opinion anyway. The problem is that it's similar to regular C++ in many ways, which makes the differences very annoying and sometimes surprising.
Also note, you can develop on S60 using many different languages - Open C, Open C++, Python, Java, various web languages, and those are just the ones that come to mind. So, you don't even have to suffer Symbian C++, if you don't want to. I've no experience of those though.
I guess Qt for S60 will be available in due course. That's a platform/toolkit people usually think well of...even on slashdot.
> Not only that, but there are many different versions (V9, V9.1, S60 3rd Ed, S60 FP1, S60 FP2, 9.4, 9.5 and that's just the recent ones) and they are mostly binary and source incompatible.
That's balony. I (helped) develop an S60 application, and the differences were significant between S60 2nd and 3rd editions (there was a big OS-break then - akin to OS9/OSX), but otherwise there were very few OS version specific changes needed to the source. The main things I remember were that the 2nd edition phones and the first few of the 3rd edition phones had a WAP browser; and the newer ones have the webkit ones (yes, before the iPhone). The other difference that came to mind was that S60 3rd edition came with an OpenGL driver, while for 2nd edition, we had to package one with our app.
Actually, our code base was common for both S60 2nd edition and S60 3rd edition...the differences there were for SDK differences (like having to get things signed/etc/etc).
In the end, we had just two versions for users to install - one for 2nd edition, and one for 3rd edition. From the user's point of view, it didn't matter which of the 2nd edition or 3rd edition phones they had...and a web/wap page could easily tell from the user-agent which one to provide for the user to install.
Really, not rocket science at all.
Calling them 'mostly binary and source incompatible' is just rubbish and plainly FUD.
Also, what's wrong with having different versions? Even something like the iPhone OS has two (soon to be three) versions. It's mostly a symptom of having a successful platform and many different target phones. Perhaps when there are many different iPhones and Android phones, then they will have the same issues.
Yes, the development platform is not so much fun to use, but that's a different thing to the target OSes being different. I even got the SDK working on Linux the other day and plan to do some applications in my spare time, in the hope that I can sell stuff on the soon-to-open Ovi Store. It seems like the SDKs will even work on OSX for all you Apple guys. Personally, I find it kind of refreshing to actually understand what's going on, instead of have a GUI 'protect' me from it all.
I think the Ovi Store could well be very significant. The prospect of having access to such a large user base has to turn some heads, surely. It *is* huge, especially if they can enable it on existing phones too. I guess they could do that by using the Download! application somehow - the Download! application is what might be called the 'app store' that's been around for many years (yes, way before iPhone even was a twinkle in any Jobs' eye) on S60 phones - since it's already on probably well over a hundred million phones already.
...and a massive installed base, massive distribution channels, and clearly a huge number of phones planned to run it from several different manufacturers.
Actually, it might be more appropriate to ask what Android has over Symbian...the only thing I can think of is the development environment, but that's not so clear cut, in my mind at least.
I don't think you're right for doing it, but I encourage you anyway.
You see, if they are forced to pay the going rate for such s/w, then they will be more likely to choose s/w that costs less, or is free, and thereby you'll be helping them to free themselves of the Microsoft shackles.
IMO, Microsoft software is only commonly used in China because it's free - eventually, when China becomes super-rich, Microsoft will be able to get China to enforce similar laws as in the US and so make substantial profit from their Microsoft addiction.
I did have a friend once tell me that she recently asked for Linux when she bought a new computer, but they said it wouldn't work on the h/w she chose. Plausible, but I'm doubtful they were telling the truth.
Anyway, in my experience, Microsoft s/w isn't often free in China. It usually costs around 10rmb (~USD1) - and that's for a whole load of Microsoft s/w, including XP and Office, and no problems with that (deliberately?) poor attempt at stopping them too (they have to try, I expect, else people could say they're doing it delibately).
> but their blending among civilians, terrorism, and some legal tricks too.
I would say that use of these vehicles encourages more terrorism.
Terrorism is already used because one side doesn't have the might to directly fight with the group of people the other side has assigned for fighting (army/air force/navy/etc). I'm not even sure why people think they should restrict their fighting to only against those people.
Removing more people from the 'battlefield' isn't going to help, but make things worse - this way it's almost like every one is a 'civilian' (at least in the limit it will be) and they can't even attack 'military' even if they wanted to 'play by the rules'.
I was wondering what 'geographic location' he was referring to. All I could tell was that they were in the USA. Is it really a 'coastal' thing me meant?
Ah, I get it. It's because you're using an OR '\|'.
It looked strange to me because I was familiar with using '\(' and '\)' for marking text to be later included in the substituted text (eg '\1'), but this command doesn't have such a thing.
I wonder if you can later use the '\1' for anything, or does it just disappear?
It's at least traditional to express key sequences from 'command' (is that the correct name?) mode...eg 'i' takes you to insert mode, 'a' takes you to append mode. I would have called the mode ':' takes you to 'command mode', but perhaps that is wrong....looking in:help I see it's called 'command-line mode', and what you call 'command mode' is actually 'normal mode':) So, there is no 'command mode' as such, though the mode ':' takes you to is closest, I think.
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Can't argue with that. However, I think we'll have to see what happens with the Ovi store...it's not open yet.
IMO, they're going to have to have a cheap solution for the 'poor' developers. They used to have it such that a company would test and sign freeware apps at no cost, but I heard that effort fell-by-the-wayside in recent years. Maybe something like that could be made to work again...
> All these 'decisions' were driven by the wish to develop a proprietary lock-in product that actually failed in the business sense.
Evidence, please.
As an aside, I have to laugh a little at someone saying, in the current world situation, that the free market actually works. The free market world seems to be falling apart, thanks largely to greed and lies. Contrary to what you say, it's the 'directed economies' that seem to be holding it all together (despite over reliance on exported to free markets). ...but I prefer not to 'go there' as they say in the US.
You're putting words into my mouth, again, and conveniently ignoring what I did say. I'd like to know what part of what I said that ws factually incorrect.
No, it's you who sound irrational, biased and closed-minded. Choice is bad....rrriiiighhhtt. You can use Open C, Open C++ (not only Symbian C++), and Java - that covers all the languages available for both iPhone OS and Android.
I've only use Symbian C++ though[1] so I can't comment on the other ones apart from to observe that they're available.
If I'm factually wrong, feel free to correct me.
(I didn't know Ruby was on S60 - interesting).
[1] Yes, it wasn't much fun without specific training, but once I educated myself, it made much more sense. Consider it a different language, if you prefer. I think I'd prefer it were called something other than C++ since it isn't all that similar any more.
See here for evidence of binary compatibility across S60 3rd edition releases. Specifically, post number 9 confirms what I say.
Heck, on AllAboutSymbian they claim you can even install S60 3rd edition binaries on devices running S60 5th edition (only the Nokia 5800 at the moment, IINM) - here's one such quote, which is in a discussion about freeware for the Nokia 5800 :
"
Use this install file, the version for S60 3rd Edition FP1 phones, until such time as Nokia get round to doing a formal S60 5th Edition release.
"
Funny how I can install the same binaries on many S60 3rd edition phones....or am I misunderstanding what 'binary incompatible' means?
I know S60 2nd and 3rd needed different binaries, but the S60 3rd editions could all use the same binaries.
> . the platform sucks to code for. It's a totally non-standard (no exceptions, what?) platform
Oh, and I forgot to mention that Android uses a non-standard version of Java too[1], and at least the standard exists for Java already, so there's less excuse than Symbian C++ has.
[1] I'm not sure how to compare non-standardness, and I don't have much experience of Java, or even Android/Google Java or whatever it's called, so it's difficult for me to comment apart from non-standard is non-standard.
Yeah, what he said. ie, mod him up
Did you misread my post - or not read it at all? It sounds like the latter.
I didn't make any comment on the quality of Download![1] No, all I said was that it is something they could use to make the Ovi Store accessible to the existing installed base.
Doesn't the prospect of getting your app in front of hundreds of millions of users even interest you? It does me. ...and, again, you're talking about Symbian C++ and the 'standard' to which you refer didn't exist when it came into being. Also, you can use other languages (Open C, Open C++, Python, Java, web stuff), so you don't even have to put up with that.
Heck, on some stores, you don't even know if your app will make it into the store until you've done all the development work. I sure hope the Ovi Store doesn't do the same thing as them.
Max.
[1] ...though I have used it to download useful applications without any problems. I just mentioned that Download! was available for many years before these other stores. Sure, the newer ones are 'better' (supposedly, I've not used them, so I don't know) but having the experience of Download! and the various other stores Nokia has had over the years has to count for something. I hope it at least gives them the experience to make the Ovi Store successful and give us access to a massive existing user base.
Note that most people here are talking about Symbian C++, which is the way it is because it came into being when C++ was very new and didn't regular C++ had various features is has now. If you spend the time to learn (eg training) how it solves the various problems inherent in early C++, then it is quite easy to appreciate it - in my opinion anyway. The problem is that it's similar to regular C++ in many ways, which makes the differences very annoying and sometimes surprising.
Also note, you can develop on S60 using many different languages - Open C, Open C++, Python, Java, various web languages, and those are just the ones that come to mind. So, you don't even have to suffer Symbian C++, if you don't want to. I've no experience of those though.
I guess Qt for S60 will be available in due course. That's a platform/toolkit people usually think well of...even on slashdot.
...er, because it's only just been announced? In other words, it wasn't known before just recently, but now it is, so it's news.
> Not only that, but there are many different versions (V9, V9.1, S60 3rd Ed, S60 FP1, S60 FP2, 9.4, 9.5 and that's just the recent ones) and they are mostly binary and source incompatible.
That's balony. I (helped) develop an S60 application, and the differences were significant between S60 2nd and 3rd editions (there was a big OS-break then - akin to OS9/OSX), but otherwise there were very few OS version specific changes needed to the source. The main things I remember were that the 2nd edition phones and the first few of the 3rd edition phones had a WAP browser; and the newer ones have the webkit ones (yes, before the iPhone). The other difference that came to mind was that S60 3rd edition came with an OpenGL driver, while for 2nd edition, we had to package one with our app.
Actually, our code base was common for both S60 2nd edition and S60 3rd edition...the differences there were for SDK differences (like having to get things signed/etc/etc).
In the end, we had just two versions for users to install - one for 2nd edition, and one for 3rd edition. From the user's point of view, it didn't matter which of the 2nd edition or 3rd edition phones they had...and a web/wap page could easily tell from the user-agent which one to provide for the user to install.
Really, not rocket science at all.
Calling them 'mostly binary and source incompatible' is just rubbish and plainly FUD.
Also, what's wrong with having different versions? Even something like the iPhone OS has two (soon to be three) versions. It's mostly a symptom of having a successful platform and many different target phones. Perhaps when there are many different iPhones and Android phones, then they will have the same issues.
Yes, the development platform is not so much fun to use, but that's a different thing to the target OSes being different. I even got the SDK working on Linux the other day and plan to do some applications in my spare time, in the hope that I can sell stuff on the soon-to-open Ovi Store. It seems like the SDKs will even work on OSX for all you Apple guys. Personally, I find it kind of refreshing to actually understand what's going on, instead of have a GUI 'protect' me from it all.
I think the Ovi Store could well be very significant. The prospect of having access to such a large user base has to turn some heads, surely. It *is* huge, especially if they can enable it on existing phones too. I guess they could do that by using the Download! application somehow - the Download! application is what might be called the 'app store' that's been around for many years (yes, way before iPhone even was a twinkle in any Jobs' eye) on S60 phones - since it's already on probably well over a hundred million phones already.
We'll see, I guess.
...and a massive installed base, massive distribution channels, and clearly a huge number of phones planned to run it from several different manufacturers.
Actually, it might be more appropriate to ask what Android has over Symbian...the only thing I can think of is the development environment, but that's not so clear cut, in my mind at least.
The place they test nuclear weapons isn't a million miles away...
they use metric there, so it doesn't apply...well, everywhere uses metric now, apart from the US it seems.
I don't think you're right for doing it, but I encourage you anyway.
You see, if they are forced to pay the going rate for such s/w, then they will be more likely to choose s/w that costs less, or is free, and thereby you'll be helping them to free themselves of the Microsoft shackles.
IMO, Microsoft software is only commonly used in China because it's free - eventually, when China becomes super-rich, Microsoft will be able to get China to enforce similar laws as in the US and so make substantial profit from their Microsoft addiction.
I did have a friend once tell me that she recently asked for Linux when she bought a new computer, but they said it wouldn't work on the h/w she chose. Plausible, but I'm doubtful they were telling the truth.
Anyway, in my experience, Microsoft s/w isn't often free in China. It usually costs around 10rmb (~USD1) - and that's for a whole load of Microsoft s/w, including XP and Office, and no problems with that (deliberately?) poor attempt at stopping them too (they have to try, I expect, else people could say they're doing it delibately).
Aahhh. Thank you!
I think the phone in question is the E90 - not the N90.
I guess it's easy to get confused when you have more than one phone to choose from.
Never mind 'funny'. Someone please explain what it was he meant?
Has the US turned 'car' into a verb now?
> but their blending among civilians, terrorism, and some legal tricks too.
I would say that use of these vehicles encourages more terrorism.
Terrorism is already used because one side doesn't have the might to directly fight with the group of people the other side has assigned for fighting (army/air force/navy/etc). I'm not even sure why people think they should restrict their fighting to only against those people.
Removing more people from the 'battlefield' isn't going to help, but make things worse - this way it's almost like every one is a 'civilian' (at least in the limit it will be) and they can't even attack 'military' even if they wanted to 'play by the rules'.
I was wondering what 'geographic location' he was referring to. All I could tell was that they were in the USA. Is it really a 'coastal' thing me meant?
At least they didn't follow the Wisker's cat food advert and call it the 'largest *ever* telescope'.
Yeah, short-sighted names bug me too.
then one has to wonder why they bothered mentioning it...is there no way to measure the capability of optics, if that is what is important?
thanks.
The VS plugin isn't of any use if you don't use Microsoft Windows. I'm using Linux, so a vi plugin for eclipse is just what I'm after :)
Thanks, I'll give it a try.
Ah, I get it. It's because you're using an OR '\|'.
It looked strange to me because I was familiar with using '\(' and '\)' for marking text to be later included in the substituted text (eg '\1'), but this command doesn't have such a thing.
I wonder if you can later use the '\1' for anything, or does it just disappear?
It's at least traditional to express key sequences from 'command' (is that the correct name?) mode...eg 'i' takes you to insert mode, 'a' takes you to append mode. I would have called the mode ':' takes you to 'command mode', but perhaps that is wrong....looking in :help I see it's called 'command-line mode', and what you call 'command mode' is actually 'normal mode' :) So, there is no 'command mode' as such, though the mode ':' takes you to is closest, I think.
Anyway....