So basically you're saying that they should do the exact same thing that they do already, except with the addition of a method that would make parental control more convenient for the consumer. I don't see how this would keep developers from "worrying about toning their games down to make a T rating" at all.
When you buy a car, do you get free gasoline for life? When you buy a console, do you get free games for life? When you buy a VCR do you get free movies for life?
The pricing systems of MMORPGs are hardly similar to any of those situations. You can separate a car from its gasoline, or a console from its games, but you can't separate a game from itself.
Are you saying that the console should be able to analyze a game and determine what in it counts as "excessive violence" so it can regulate it based on human instruction? You're living in a fantasy land. There's no way a console would be able to do that until a human-level AI is developed.
I like my Vice City as much as the next guy, but if a 13 year old is going to be playing it, their parents should be aware of the content and it should be up to them whether it's allowed in their house or not (for the record, I'd let my kids play it).
And that's why the ratings exist. Refusing to sell an M-rated game to a minor is unnecessary.
By restricting the sale to minors, you don't bring up any more issues than not allowing kids into R rated movies does.
The obvious difference is that you watch a movie in a theater, so if you go there by yourself or with a bunch of minor friends, there's no way for your parents to find out about it unless someone tells them (unlikely). A video game that you buy, on the other hand, is almost certainly going to be played in the home. If your parents are attentive at all, they'll know that you're playing GTA3 in your bedroom.
If the client could run multiple products without much consumer inconvenience (like a VCR or a console) then this viewpoint might be understandable, but I don't think I've seen an MMORPG developer do this yet. Selling a game separate from the entirety of its gameplay is like selling a car without an engine or an OEM computer without a CPU.
Just because you can justify this sort of thing doesn't mean that you should do it.
Oh, and just out of curiosity, how is the PS2 version of Rez superior?
I believe that Mike Robinson (you know who I'm talking about) told me that the PS2 version had superior graphics and/or sound. Mike's pretty sensitive to those things, though, so it's probably something I wouldn't notice.
Oh, and of course there's the crappiness of the DC controller (and the angelic design of the Dual Shock) to consider.
Xenogears has one of the greatest stories of all time
You forgot to add the very important words "in video gaming" to the end of that clause. Xenogears' story is hardly impressive compared to the best stories in cinema or literature.
There are a lot of people out there who think that the Dreamcast is the best console ever made, and that Sega's inability to market was what killed it off. I'm not one of those people.
All the same, Soul Calibur is easily the best fighting game I've ever played, and Virtua Tennis is one of the best sports games. Rez is an artistic-yet-fun shooter (though I think there's a superior version on the PS2), and Skies of Arcadia probably would've been good if I'd bothered playing it for very long. Too bad the Dreamcast didn't have many other great games, unless they were all buried underneath Sega's ineptitude.
Rob (Shenmue is the most overrated game ever made)
Because there are more third-parties than first-parties, thus a system with only good third-party games is more likely to have a large number of good games than one with only good first-party games.
I think ICO is the best argument for video gaming as art to date, but Rez is another excellent example.
Rob
Re:why should art matter?
on
Videogames as Art
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· Score: 2, Insightful
It legitimizes it. Until video gaming is accepted as art, it will always be considered (at best) a pastime for children or (at worst) a leading cause of violence in children.
Saying that all interactive art is not video gaming is not the same thing as saying that all video gaming is not interactive art. Logic 101.
Rob
First videogame with a plot
on
Videogames as Art
·
· Score: 2, Informative
Let's go way back now, and be honest: what's the first videogame that you remember that had a plot worth remembering? I mean something that wasn't just throw-away. My answer (big surprise here) would be Final Fantasy VI.
Yeah, it's pretty hard to forget that big collapse in storytelling about halfway through.
As for me, the first videogame with a real plot that I can remember was Ninja Gaiden. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a PC game that I'm forgetting earlier than that. I guess it depends on your definition of "throw-away."
The people who control the games. The ITF says that guns aren't allowed in tennis; the people who run the online games state (or at least imply) that aimbots and other hacks aren't allowed in their games. Note that it's quite possible for an admin to allow the use of cheats if he wishes. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few servers like this.
BTW, cheesing within the standard rules of the game (i.e. camping, using overpowered weapons) tends to be far more acceptable than using cheats. This is probably because the makers of the game intended for the former to happen (or at least didn't prohibit it from happening).
Not quite. I know at least one person who's waiting for the price to drop before getting one. But I'd say that the natural peak for PS2 sales has passed.
My PS2 is also having trouble loading some games (I think they're all DVD games) now. They do load eventually, but the console sits on the menu screen for a few seconds beforehand.
Suppose I was playing a real-life tennis match with Sampras, pulled out a gun, and shot him in the knee. Would my subsequent win (assuming I wasn't arrested or handcuffed) be honest or fair? Certainly not.
Using a gun isn't within the rules of tennis. Cheesing is (in fact, cheesing is expected). Your analogy is invalid.
Slashdot Mirror
No, it's like parental controls on a DVD player.
That would be the sensible approach to take, but the grandparent is referring to the abolition of video game ratings altogether.
Rob
So basically you're saying that they should do the exact same thing that they do already, except with the addition of a method that would make parental control more convenient for the consumer. I don't see how this would keep developers from "worrying about toning their games down to make a T rating" at all.
Rob
When you buy a car, do you get free gasoline for life? When you buy a console, do you get free games for life? When you buy a VCR do you get free movies for life?
The pricing systems of MMORPGs are hardly similar to any of those situations. You can separate a car from its gasoline, or a console from its games, but you can't separate a game from itself.
Rob
Are you saying that the console should be able to analyze a game and determine what in it counts as "excessive violence" so it can regulate it based on human instruction? You're living in a fantasy land. There's no way a console would be able to do that until a human-level AI is developed.
Rob
I like my Vice City as much as the next guy, but if a 13 year old is going to be playing it, their parents should be aware of the content and it should be up to them whether it's allowed in their house or not (for the record, I'd let my kids play it).
And that's why the ratings exist. Refusing to sell an M-rated game to a minor is unnecessary.
By restricting the sale to minors, you don't bring up any more issues than not allowing kids into R rated movies does.
The obvious difference is that you watch a movie in a theater, so if you go there by yourself or with a bunch of minor friends, there's no way for your parents to find out about it unless someone tells them (unlikely). A video game that you buy, on the other hand, is almost certainly going to be played in the home. If your parents are attentive at all, they'll know that you're playing GTA3 in your bedroom.
Rob
If the client could run multiple products without much consumer inconvenience (like a VCR or a console) then this viewpoint might be understandable, but I don't think I've seen an MMORPG developer do this yet. Selling a game separate from the entirety of its gameplay is like selling a car without an engine or an OEM computer without a CPU.
Just because you can justify this sort of thing doesn't mean that you should do it.
Rob
Oh, and just out of curiosity, how is the PS2 version of Rez superior?
I believe that Mike Robinson (you know who I'm talking about) told me that the PS2 version had superior graphics and/or sound. Mike's pretty sensitive to those things, though, so it's probably something I wouldn't notice.
Oh, and of course there's the crappiness of the DC controller (and the angelic design of the Dual Shock) to consider.
Rob
Xenogears has one of the greatest stories of all time
You forgot to add the very important words "in video gaming" to the end of that clause. Xenogears' story is hardly impressive compared to the best stories in cinema or literature.
Rob
I remember Zork being little more than a treasure hunt. Maybe you mean one of the later Infocom games.
Rob
There are a lot of people out there who think that the Dreamcast is the best console ever made, and that Sega's inability to market was what killed it off. I'm not one of those people.
All the same, Soul Calibur is easily the best fighting game I've ever played, and Virtua Tennis is one of the best sports games. Rez is an artistic-yet-fun shooter (though I think there's a superior version on the PS2), and Skies of Arcadia probably would've been good if I'd bothered playing it for very long. Too bad the Dreamcast didn't have many other great games, unless they were all buried underneath Sega's ineptitude.
Rob (Shenmue is the most overrated game ever made)
Remember the last one?
If it was anything like the PC version, it not only was in a computer-RPG style, but it was also pretty good.
Rob
So the community of players should always follow the rules as intended by the authors of the game
I said the opposite of this. Read my post again.
Rob
Because there are more third-parties than first-parties, thus a system with only good third-party games is more likely to have a large number of good games than one with only good first-party games.
Rob
A craft is an art with a practical purpose. I don't think video gaming qualifies.
Rob
Whoops, I meant "Not all interactive art is video gaming." I'm sure you get my point, though.
Rob
The original Zork had barely anything to do with plot, but I did forget about A Mind Forever Voyaging.
Rob
I think ICO is the best argument for video gaming as art to date, but Rez is another excellent example.
Rob
It legitimizes it. Until video gaming is accepted as art, it will always be considered (at best) a pastime for children or (at worst) a leading cause of violence in children.
Rob
Saying that all interactive art is not video gaming is not the same thing as saying that all video gaming is not interactive art. Logic 101.
Rob
Let's go way back now, and be honest: what's the first videogame that you remember that had a plot worth remembering? I mean something that wasn't just throw-away. My answer (big surprise here) would be Final Fantasy VI.
Yeah, it's pretty hard to forget that big collapse in storytelling about halfway through.
As for me, the first videogame with a real plot that I can remember was Ninja Gaiden. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a PC game that I'm forgetting earlier than that. I guess it depends on your definition of "throw-away."
Rob
The people who control the games. The ITF says that guns aren't allowed in tennis; the people who run the online games state (or at least imply) that aimbots and other hacks aren't allowed in their games. Note that it's quite possible for an admin to allow the use of cheats if he wishes. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few servers like this.
BTW, cheesing within the standard rules of the game (i.e. camping, using overpowered weapons) tends to be far more acceptable than using cheats. This is probably because the makers of the game intended for the former to happen (or at least didn't prohibit it from happening).
Rob
Not quite. I know at least one person who's waiting for the price to drop before getting one. But I'd say that the natural peak for PS2 sales has passed.
Rob
My PS2 is also having trouble loading some games (I think they're all DVD games) now. They do load eventually, but the console sits on the menu screen for a few seconds beforehand.
After that, though, the game works fine.
Rob
I think I'd rather have a system where all of the good games are third-party than one where all of them are first-party.
Rob (Though I have all three systems, so this is rather moot for me anyway)
Suppose I was playing a real-life tennis match with Sampras, pulled out a gun, and shot him in the knee. Would my subsequent win (assuming I wasn't arrested or handcuffed) be honest or fair? Certainly not.
Using a gun isn't within the rules of tennis. Cheesing is (in fact, cheesing is expected). Your analogy is invalid.
Rob