I'm confused now. Do we hate Real this week? Next week when an article about their legal fight with Microsoft comes out I need to cheer? Or are we still hating them anyway? Help!
Joel's flagship product is (or used to be) written in Visual Basic. When he talks about "my users download a 9MB installer that has no additional dependencies" he's including the VB runtime along with everything else. That's 1.2MB, not including any additional ActiveX stuff he might use.
Joel doesn't want a "linker", he wants C/C++ or Delphi or some other language that can create self-contained executables. So the.NET runtime is 25MB. Those are the breaks. His employee wrote this little app in 60 seconds, right? Well you can either do that and download 25MB of runtime or spend 25 hours writing it and not download anything.
And of course this posted here looks like yet another evil plot by "M$" to (a) lock in customers (b) stifle competition; or (c) kill baby seals. Jeez.
Considering Joel's track record I'm surprised he framed this "problem" this way. Linker indeed.
I find it quite interesting that first you accused him of "dribbling" and now you're trying to make a feeble point about his past involvement with open source. Let me guess - if this article had been published on some other website we wouldn't have heard a peep from you, mmmm?
Look for the microsoft.public.windows* hierarchy. Keep in mind many of these are not very active and some of them (for some reason) are pretty much abandoned because they're duplicated. But use Google to see which ones are more active.
The servers have very little spam and as most non-technoreligious deals they're mostly technical and to the point, though you do see the occasional flame war.
Plus, it's Usenet so just use whatever NNTP reader you like and post away.
The people who run Vivendi are probably the same as PHB's everywhere - they think software developers and artists are commodities that can be replaced as required. They "stick it" to someone who wants a raise or whatever and replace them with some clueless n00b who can't cut it. Then they'll fire that guy and try another one. And another one. Then the game tanks and they scratch their heads, blame it on the weather or something and move on. I've seen it many times.
Don't bother with this guy. He used your post to make yet another offtopic strawman argument about how "M$ sux" and is evil. He doesn't know what he's talking about.
It's all a matter of temperature: something at hundreds of degrees below zero certainly isn't going to burn
Depends on how you define "burn". There's weird stuff out there. For example, some people are confused by the idea that water can boil at near-freezing temperature... provided you remove enough atmospheric pressure so that it reaches its vapor pressure point quickly enough.
Well but sublimation != combustion and all that *cough*
My man, you need to talk to the doctor. Doctor. Several of them, if you want. But you're not going to get much wisdom from a bunch of people who start their posts with "IANAD".
Seriously, I'm sorry this is happening to you and it sucks, but go talk to someone who knows how to help you. Please.
You're missing the point. The research and technologies that these projects generate eventually make it into the commercial civilian market. Think of it as a down payment on the PCs, cellphones and PDAs you'll be using in ten years. Cheap, fast, capable. They trickle down to every aspect of modern life. For example, some of the research done on board the space shuttles during the late 80s on suspension gels are used today to produce better medicines that dissolve when where they're supposed to.
Do you like vacations? Think of this as a holiday for mankind. Instead of reading about the latest suicide bomber in Hebron you get to see pics of another planet. It won't make problems go away, but you need a break once in a while.
And, if you're an american you paid for this - I can't think about a better use of my tax dollars, especially when I see that they're being spent on shit that pisses the hell out of me.
Why did they seek out, and then license the OS to their early PC(a contract Microsoft got with DOS, which they didn't own at the time, and leas to the Windows monopoly today)?
True. But while this is a oft-used argument, also remember that they released OS/2 (which was a damn fine operating system) and then they proceeded to ignore it until it died because they couldn't make up their minds as to whether they were a hardware, software or services company. They had a huge installed base, even compared to Windows. It was certainly larger than MacOS at the time.
And you think they will use it themselves but not bring along Notes, that they so heavily depend upon in Windows? No, they will migrate to linux, and they will bring all their internal and external software with them.
My point is that I'd rather wait and see. Companies change directions, they change CEOs and boards and reinvent themselves. And as SCO has proven, companies can also make life difficult for everyone, stupid and baseless as their claims might be.
I understand that. And I don't think IBM should let DB2 or any of their core products go. My point was that everyone is falling over themselves to praise IBM as if they were the FSF 2.0; out to promote and improve free software. I don't think that's the case. They are out to make a buck. Nothing wrong with that, and they do it better than most companies.
But they are using Linux as a tool to make more money. No more, no less. They don't have a viable desktop OS (I won't count Warp since they killed it themselves with amazing efficiency), so Linux fits the bill. They could have just as well gone with one of the *BSDs as Apple did.
People need to understand that instead of thinking IBM is suddenly Protector Of Our Software Rights. That's not in their corporate charter, trust me.
It's so funny how everyone here cheers IBM like this because they're "sticking it to teh M$". Have you seen the source code to DB2 or Notes lately?
IBM is a corporation whose main reason for existence is to make money and maximize shareholder value. Things like these have absolutely nothing to do with their "support" of free software.
Slashdot Mirror
And BTW, not everyone wants to do blogs or portals. So more often than not, things like MT or Plone are overkill.
I'm confused now. Do we hate Real this week? Next week when an article about their legal fight with Microsoft comes out I need to cheer? Or are we still hating them anyway? Help!
Joel doesn't want a "linker", he wants C/C++ or Delphi or some other language that can create self-contained executables. So the .NET runtime is 25MB. Those are the breaks. His employee wrote this little app in 60 seconds, right? Well you can either do that and download 25MB of runtime or spend 25 hours writing it and not download anything.
And of course this posted here looks like yet another evil plot by "M$" to (a) lock in customers (b) stifle competition; or (c) kill baby seals. Jeez.
Considering Joel's track record I'm surprised he framed this "problem" this way. Linker indeed.
I find it quite interesting that first you accused him of "dribbling" and now you're trying to make a feeble point about his past involvement with open source. Let me guess - if this article had been published on some other website we wouldn't have heard a peep from you, mmmm?
Look for the microsoft.public.windows* hierarchy. Keep in mind many of these are not very active and some of them (for some reason) are pretty much abandoned because they're duplicated. But use Google to see which ones are more active.
The servers have very little spam and as most non-technoreligious deals they're mostly technical and to the point, though you do see the occasional flame war.
Plus, it's Usenet so just use whatever NNTP reader you like and post away.
[apologies to my brit friends]
Now we can be amused by another batch of Mars landscape pictures with Wal-Mart and McDonald's signs Photoshopped into them. Isn't science great!?
But seriously, kudos unlimited to NASA. It was about time they got a friggin' break.
The people who run Vivendi are probably the same as PHB's everywhere - they think software developers and artists are commodities that can be replaced as required. They "stick it" to someone who wants a raise or whatever and replace them with some clueless n00b who can't cut it. Then they'll fire that guy and try another one. And another one. Then the game tanks and they scratch their heads, blame it on the weather or something and move on. I've seen it many times.
Look at his posting history to get an idea.
8th millionth post!!
Have a nice day!
We're always so fast to make excuses for shortcomings in open source products yet woe the commercial one that has a bug for it is "teh sux".
no, you're just stupid.
Depends on how you define "burn". There's weird stuff out there. For example, some people are confused by the idea that water can boil at near-freezing temperature... provided you remove enough atmospheric pressure so that it reaches its vapor pressure point quickly enough.
Well but sublimation != combustion and all that *cough*
OK maybe he wasn't that eloquent.
Seriously, I'm sorry this is happening to you and it sucks, but go talk to someone who knows how to help you. Please.
Viva la revolucion komandante!!
Do you like vacations? Think of this as a holiday for mankind. Instead of reading about the latest suicide bomber in Hebron you get to see pics of another planet. It won't make problems go away, but you need a break once in a while.
And, if you're an american you paid for this - I can't think about a better use of my tax dollars, especially when I see that they're being spent on shit that pisses the hell out of me.
True. But while this is a oft-used argument, also remember that they released OS/2 (which was a damn fine operating system) and then they proceeded to ignore it until it died because they couldn't make up their minds as to whether they were a hardware, software or services company. They had a huge installed base, even compared to Windows. It was certainly larger than MacOS at the time.
And you think they will use it themselves but not bring along Notes, that they so heavily depend upon in Windows? No, they will migrate to linux, and they will bring all their internal and external software with them.
My point is that I'd rather wait and see. Companies change directions, they change CEOs and boards and reinvent themselves. And as SCO has proven, companies can also make life difficult for everyone, stupid and baseless as their claims might be.
But they are using Linux as a tool to make more money. No more, no less. They don't have a viable desktop OS (I won't count Warp since they killed it themselves with amazing efficiency), so Linux fits the bill. They could have just as well gone with one of the *BSDs as Apple did.
People need to understand that instead of thinking IBM is suddenly Protector Of Our Software Rights. That's not in their corporate charter, trust me.
IBM is a corporation whose main reason for existence is to make money and maximize shareholder value. Things like these have absolutely nothing to do with their "support" of free software.
Boy you are one weird piece of work. And you figured that I'm a "new user" all by yourself? Astounding.
Holy shit. What hole did you crawl out of?