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Neural Feedback Training as Therapy for ADHD?
"If you haven't heard of it, the idea is that by attaching sensors to the head, brainwaves can be measured, and by providing visual feedback, you can actually train your brain to regulate its activity. An ADHD person supposedly has a brain which isn't very good at keeping itself in 'concentration' mode. In a child, the feedback takes the form of a game or in the case of an infant, a pleasing pattern on the screen (an infant would probably be treated for sleep disorders, not ADHD, in case you were wondering). When the brainwaves are in the 'right' state, the game proceeds or the patterns get prettier. When the brainwaves are erratic, it all slows down.
Because it is a trendy new thing, it's been put forward as a possible treatment for many other things including sleeplessness, epilepsy and other disorders, but one of the better successes has been in the treatment of ADHD.
The whole thing sounds quite plausible, but it is also quite expensive. All of the stuff I've read has been either from the suppliers of the treatment, or from people trying to discredit it."
Pardon my ranting, but this issue hits rather close to home.
:)
I'm of the opinion that ADD/ADHD is not a disorder, and should never be "treated". Perhaps having been prescribed various stimulant medicines which shortly turned into an addiction, which in itself transformed into dependency on methamphetamine (which I finally quit in March thanks to Rational Recovery) has influenced me in distrusting chemical treatment, the idea of treatment at all, and, most importantly, the disease model that most people seem to apply to Attention Deficit, but perhaps it is just from having been someone who could very aptly be described as the "Poster Child" for ADD.
Based on the experience of myself and many others, I have come to the conclusion that Attention Deficit is not a disorder inasmuch as it is a different form of thinking and interacting with the world which can have both its downsides and its blessings. We may have trouble in the standard school and work paradigms that most seem to be able to deal with successfully, but we also tend to be very insightful, creative, and interesting folks
I always call attention to the fact that many of our greatest minds, a perfect example being Albert Einstein, would today have been diagnosed with ADD, prescribed stimulants, and had the insights that they would have otherwise shared with the world snuffed out and replaced with mindless conformity.
Please consider changing your daughter's school, and adapting her environment to her very special mind, instead of trying to cram a square peg into a round hole and possible damage her intellect forever.
Question: What is the cost difference between this new treatment and Ritalin?
Also, is Rialin prescription only?
ty
I've actually tried the sofware, as I have an uncle that's into this stuff. I couldn't seem to "train" my brain waves in the short time I tried it, though. And those sensors pressing on your head HURT after a while :(
Seriously, I'm sorry this is happening to you and it sucks, but go talk to someone who knows how to help you. Please.
Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
Is this why nobody replies to my /. posts?
No, but have you considered showering more often?
740916
I just takes me Ritalin...
What?
The trouble with this approach is that as of yet, there is no way to say for sure what the 'right' state of neural activity is. You can say in this group at that age there is some sort of range of common neural activity (field potential, specific regions firing, etc.), but training that is harder than it sounds.
... But a lot of that activity is regulated by chemical processes, which can be easier (and more quickly!) influenced by drugs at this point in time. It's just that the research in the neurosciences changes so fast, that WHICH drug to use is often contentious. But my money is that that is still the best approach for the next few years.
With current Brain Machine interfaces for, eg, paralyzed people, it takes months to train them to a state where they can control cursors via internal rhythms or other non-conscious means. And, yes, it's probably possible to train the brain for a specific range of activity, given enough time.
I'd write more, but I have to go control my robo-Monkey. (-:
Ritalin is speed, don't give it to kids. I realise why it works for this "disorder" but that's no reason to use it. I'm 32 now but have every reason to believe that I suffered from ADHD when I was a kid, and I think I still do to a certain extent, but I got through it without drugs. Actually, I didn't get through anything, this is just me, I have an overactive mind that means I sometimes jump from one thing to another very quickly.
My parents adopted a young boy who was diagnosed with ADHD and was taking Ritalin (which then caused severe Tourette's like symptoms, so they diagnosed him with Tourette's and gave him drugs for that.)
As soon as the adoption was final, my parents had him taken off of all of the drugs, and while he still has behavioral problems, the Tourette's has all but gone away, and he is generally happier than he was before.
Billions of people survived just fine with Ritalin, and I personally see no use for it in any situation.
What?
I have been diagnoed with ADHD. I never took a pill or had any treatment (to my knowlege). I'm 18 now and finnishing up my senior year in high-school. No pill would have given me the kind of results I got. I lived and learned through it. It was bumpy and took around 3 years to really get though it, but I have leared my weak points and how to deal with them and that is more vaulabe then any artificial treatment could do.
404
My uncle who uses this treatment has a bicycle "race" where you go faster if you generate a certain type of brain waves. He brought it to a family party and my relatives checked it out. The people who seemed to be best at it (who actually didn't have ADD) were ones who could meditate, did yoga, or otherwise had some experience trying to relax.
It sounds plausable, but it sounds like the kind of thing that would work better on a younger child. Having ADHD myself, in addition to Tourette's Syndrome and Asperger's, it sounds like it would be more frustrating than helpful (to me). However it might work better on a younger child, whose brain is still developing, to train it.
Just my opinion...
I'm ADHD and took Ritalin as a child to treat it. Bad idea, because it activated apparently dormant Tourettes Syndrome. Like the poster said, the tics were mild, all physical (rolling my eyes compulsively still continues today at age 19). After the Tourettes diagnosis treatment became a bitch since most ADHD meds aggravate it.
Turn your televison off!
I am borderline ADHD, and I only found out several years ago afte I began having trouble with class and general management of time while in college.
/. to research it.
My mom had a friend who had recently gotten certified in using this type of therapy on her daughter (who was severely ADHD), and they arranged for me to show up at their house knowing that because I was a computer science major and a geek, that I would be extremely interested in the whole setup. I walk in, express interest, and they offer to hook me up, and while they're explaining what's going on, they run a quick diagnostic which shows I could use some work on the machine (and that my brain waves are "sloppy").
To make a long story short, I went through three months of training using the machine, the whole time believing it was a placebo, but my entire family noticed the difference. I also began noticing that I was sleeping better and could work for periods of time longer than 30 minutes without feeling like i HAD to take a break.
To sum up, this is a very groundbreaking type of therapy that does work, and I encourage anyone on
$45 per U Colocation Special
Link here.
I don't know about the Neural Feedback Training, but I'd suggest finding an alternative to Ritalin ASAP.
There are many studies out there about the inefficient conversion of ALA To EPA and DHA in people with ADHD, leading me to believe that pumping your kid full of stimulants is a (very) wrong answer.
Try Mercola.com, which has some very informative articles on ADHD. As a start, make sure your kid isn't having a lot of sugar and caffeine (ie drinking fruit juices and soda).
This is what a colonic irrigation is.
Procedure in which very large quantities of liquids are infused into the colon via the rectum through a tube, a few pints at a time, in an effort to wash away and remove its contents. CI differs from an ordinary enema which involves infusing a lesser amount of liquid into the rectum only. A "high colonic" may involve the use of twenty or more gallons pumped by a machine or transmitted with an apparatus that relies upon gravity to achieve its purpose. Liquids used in colonics may include coffee, herbs, enzymes, wheat grass extract, or many other substances. Proponents of the procedure advertise that "all disease and death begin in the colon," that colonics "detoxifies" the body, and that regular "cleansing" is necessary to maintain one's health. None of these claims are true.
Well, you could always try it, but you really should consult a medical professional about it first. We here at /. could doubtless explain to you the subtle nuances of neural feedback technology, perhaps even reverse-engineer it for you, but only you, your child, and a doctor are qualified to determine what's right in your scenario.
:-P ) If you think this is going to cause physical health problems, though, then it should go without saying that you should seek professional advice. But do seriously weigh the pros and cons of your choices before pursuing "treatment" when her condition may not even deserve to be called a disorder in the first place.
At any rate, best of luck to you all.
That said, I do agree with the poster saying that AD/H/D is not a real disorder. We live in a society that celebrates mediocrity and conformity, and both myself and many I knew were "diagnosed" with this "disorder" as a result of our general tendencies to think very, very differently from other children (hmm, perhaps why I use a Macintosh?
Help protect civil rights from abuse by the TSA - visit TSA News Blog.
http://www.tsanewsblog.com
I would recommend Abuse it - Lose it. There are some additional articles Dr. David Keirsey has written about this problem as well.
IMarv
Trusting software vendors is no smarter than trus
Sounds like you're just taking the 'do your homework get to go out and play, don't do your homework sit in the corner and stare at the wall' approach, only with a drastically shorter feedback loop.
I am a psychology undergrad, and though I have no serious experience with the study or treatment of ADHD, I can recommend some starting points for gaining the facts on this condition. Where I in your position, I would head to the nearest university, put some cash on a copy card, and start using their online article databases. In particular, MedLine and PsycInfo have the most expansive databases on psychology research. Start simple - run some basic searches using keywords like ADHD and Neural Feedback Training. When you find an article or two that nail the topic you're exploring, move from those databses to the ISI (Web of Science) database. The most powerful feature of this database is its reverse-searching feature, where you can enter in an article, and retrieve a list of articles that have been published citing the one you have. This is a literature search (the first major task in designing a study). Moving back and forth between these databases, narrowing your keywords, following citations, and even searching for authors publishing pertinent studies, is going to return a massive quantity of data.
Unfortunately, links to these databases are going to be useless, because you need a subscription to search them. This is why you need to run your searches from a university library. Once you've got some promising references, start pulling articles, and educating yourself.
I hope this helps. I'm a firm believer in the power of psychology and medicine to improve the human condition. Your daughter doesn't have a disease, but she does have the physiological deck stacked against her. Being a fan of psychology over psychiatry, I'm happy to hear that you're persuing a non-drug-based treatment in addition to her medication regimine. I hope that this is where you'll find true long-term improvement.
Best of luck to you, your family, and your daughter.
there are special schools for students with ADHD and other learning disabilities, I work at one such place, www.theodysseyschool.org.
drugs are probably a bad idea, i also agree that ADHD is probably just a different way of thinking. a good friend of mine is ADHD and she is quite amazing!
I find the idea of reprogramming young children's minds in this way quite disturbing. I guess it might be better than Ritalin, though. The only kid I've really known who was on it was this really hyperactive violent kid. He just always was like tripping about everything.
There are actually several studies that link playing video games to improvements for ADHD. http://www.cet.edu/gstw/adha.html (center for educational technologies)
I would like to salute the ashes of american flags, and all the fallen leaves filling up shopping bags.
I don't believe in ADHD/ADD at all. Children are naturally naughty, curious, and full of energy. Why must Americans attempt to find something wrong with everyone, handing labels out willy-nilly.
At the end of the day "kids will be kids"--Yes, that is an actual saying folks. If you pump the little sods full of these sedatives or whatnot you are ruining the learning experience of a child, in respect to social rules.
A naughty child properly disciplined will grow up OK in most cases. A naughty child fed drugs will grow up to be one of the many idiots that populate the western world today.
C17H21NO4
...Seem to be too quick at getting all these kids on drugs. The slightest little bit of trouble for school teachers and the next thing you know the kid's doped up. My 2nd grade teacher tried the same with me a few years back. We went to talk to my doctor about it and he asked some questions such as "Can he sit and watch TV for a few hours?" or "Can he sit and do a puzzle?" Both were of course yes. The ultimatly was that the style of teaching that the teacher used in that class wasn't structured enough for me, and I was transfered to a diffrent class where the teacher used a more structred teaching method where I did fine. Maybe more people really should look into these things more before being so quick to get their kids popping pills.
Buckethead
How about you spend time with her? I don't mean after school, I am talking about during the day. Teach her yourself if you have to. But, you won't, you are looking for a quick fix and damn what it does to your daughter. You appear to be more concerned with her IQ then you do her health. You describe what is happening to her as 'various vocal tics' but it could be more than that.
Feeding a 6 year old drugs that we are unsure how they work is not a good thing. Most of the great thinkers of the past 1000 years have/had some/all of the symptoms assosiated with ADHD.
First, find out which sub-type she has. There are many different subtypes that each have different treatments. Take the on-line tests at: http://www.amenclinic.com Second, check out the pioneer in non-drug therapies: http://www.drakeinstitute.com If you do have to resort to drugs, try Strattera, which is a new, non-addictive, non-stimulant treatment that looks very promising: http://www.strattera.com/index.jsp
As the computer programs provide a similar type of activity (teaching the brain how to work properly) I believe it would work as well.
People, please don't discount mental disorders (including ADHD) as being just made up.. for those who are suffering from them and those around them they are very real conditions.
How many kids with ADD does it take to change a lightbulb?
(I don't know)
You wanna go ride bikes?
This sig is in Spanish when you're not looking....
I, for one, welcome our new Attention Def--OH LOOK A SHINY THING!!!
C17H21NO4
Ritalin is NOT speed for kids. Trust me, I have seen my nephew take it for years. it's a downer before puberty.
/usr/bin/grep -i -E meaning life.txt
I did something similar called biofeedback in order to manage an anxiety disorder. Learning to recognize muscle stress and poor breathing patterns has been extremely helpful.
I find that I'm much less anxious, am better able to deal with stress, and have a *much* easier time getting to sleep at night.
ADHD and anxiety are often related, so perhaps my experience with anxiety will translate to your experience with ADHD.
Good luck. And do talk to an MD. It takes quite a bit of fighting sometimes to get one who will listen to you, but once you find one, they can be very helpful.
when my parents were young, kids didn't have ADHD or Tourettes or whatever-the-trendy-excuse. i personally don't believe there is such a thing.
you were just stupid. if you were stupid, you fixed it yourself, out of need.
the human brain is a very powerful organ. you don't need medication or treatment to fix things all the time.
Is what I use to keep my pets in order.
Its listed here - Mental Help: Procedures to Avoid
(You'll have to scroll down the page a bit. Its two spaces up from Past-Life Therapy.)
Let me begin by pointing out that there is a correlation between ADD/ADHD and Tourette's. In other words, having one increases your chances of having the other.
... we'll never get a chance to perform that experiment, since now I'm all grown up. But I know from firsthand experience that it's possible to reign one's body in using only the power of one's concentration. So give it a shot. If it doesn't work, there's always the drugs.
I was diagnosed with mild Tourette's Syndrome when I was in sixth grade. It manifested itself similarly to your daughter's symptoms -- minor vocal and muscular tics. It wasn't a significant bother, but it impaired me enough that I sought medication for it. I began taking Clonidine transdermally (through a skin patch) to help ease my Tourette's symptoms.
A year after starting the Tourette's medication, I was diagnosed with ADD. This was ~1990, before ADD was a "trendy" disease. At the time, none of my family had ever heard of it before. So I began a regimen of Dexedrine, to help with the ADD.
I stayed on both medications for a further year, until I developed an allergy to the skin patch. At that time, my doctor recommended I try neural feedback therapy to help control the Tourette's. I went in for an hour of therapy every two weeks for a year. Over the course of the year I became better able to control my tics, but only with great concentration. If I became flustered or anxious or nervous or just plain stopped paying attention, I would lose control and the tics would come back. But, at the end of the year, I decided I was able to control the Tourette's well enough to stop therapy and medication.
I continued with Dexedrine throughout my junior-high and high school years, and gradually stopped taking it when I got to college. I firmly believe that the Dexedrine was a great help in high school; even though it exacerbated my Tourette's symptoms, it allowed me to finish high school having learned what I needed in order to get into college. Could I have used some other means to achieve the same ends? Probably. But the medication worked.
Today I'm a slightly disorganized, nervous and fidgety young man living a normal life and working a full-time job in software development. My duties expand every day and I find myself diverting more and more of my attention toward organization and self-management. But I can manage.
Will neural feedback therapy help your daughter? I'd say, give it a try. It could be that the techniques I learned to help control my Tourette's also gave me an edge in studying
P.S. I would recommend looking at alternatives to Ritalin. Dexedrine and Desoxyn , AFAIK, achieve the same thing but with fewer side effects (less of a methamphetamine-like effect on the human body).
I suffered from ADHD as a child as well, and believe I still do suffer from it in some form as an adult, although I have many of the problems under control through conditioning and strong willpower. I disagree very strongly with your statement that it is not a disease.
I also do not believe those stimulants (none of which I take) are a hindrance. As a child, I was on ritalin, and I was still in the gifted and talented program. In Kindegarten, I had ADHD issues so severely, I was originally suspected to be suffering from a mild form of mental retardation (ADHD didn't cross their minds at the time). As a result of this suspicion, I was given an IQ test. I was discovered to have a high IQ (~145 range at the time in Kindegarten), which ruled out mental retardation, and brought up suspicion of ADHD.
I couldn't sit still in class, I couldn't focus, I couldn't pay attention, I couldn't learn. What good is intelligence if one can't manage to focus long enough to learn how to read and write? What good is intelligence or brilliance without an educational foundation and the ability to focus and employ one's abilities?
Ritalin was a godsend for myself and my parents - I could finally focus in class, and my mother wasn't being driven crazy by an overactive 5 year old. I was in the gifted and talented program in elementary school, and began reading material well beyond my grade level.
Now, that is not to say I believe Ritalin is a wonder drug. I am merely stating my experience with it during my childhood. Misdiagnoses of ADHD IS a problem. Treatment of correct diagnoses is not.
You can listen to what this person has to say, not treat your daughter, and put her school years at risk of being wasted time. Or you can seek treatment for your daughter.
- MaineCoon
Hunt your preferred prey at Aliens vs Predator MUD. Join the war at avpmud.com port 4000
The disease, or condition, or whatever you want to call it, is a myth. The problem is real, but it is completely behavioral. Less TV, more reading, more sports, maybe intense concentration via learning to play violin. Medication changes moods. Living changes life.
much about how the brain really works except
for approximately what section does what, and
basicly how nuerons themselves work (think
neural nets (AI)), and how certain drugs affect
the brain in whatever ways.
(Am I right about the above, not entirely sure,
based on the "monkeys use remote control"
article?)
It's entirely possible that many of these so
called "diseases" are entirely normal. For
example, being gay was once considered a disease.
Is this really much different?
There are many links on this subject, such as:m
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2836491.st
As a previous poster mentioned, this kind of stuff works by "training" your brain. It does this through biofeedback.
Biofeedback works by presenting data of interest from some sort of sensor array (EKG, or in this case an EEG) in a way your brain interprets on various levels (ex: colors, shapes, etc).
These guys usually do it (afaik) in the context of some sort of non-interactive game (well, it is interactive in that it's driven by your brain, not by a joystick/keyboard/mouse, etc).
Anyways, I don't want to say too much because I'm sure most of it was under some sort of NDA, but here's their sites:
- EEG Spectrum International
- NeuroCybernetics
This stuff is pretty amazing, you can actually feel it working, as potent (or more) than any medication I've ever popped. But it should only be done by a trained therapist (I tried it on myself a few times because I was sick of playing back the same old recordings and it gave me a bit of a headache, but under the control of a trained tech it doesn't cause much (any afaik) discomfort. Also, unlike another poster mentioned, I was never irritated by the connections, maybe they've improved over time).It's pretty cool stuff and I hope I have an opportunity to contribute more in the near future.
Disclaimer: I'm just a code monkey that developed some "front-end" stuff (the game side shown to the patient, not the nuts & bolts on the therapist's side). So, take my info in context of just a guy who coded from a spec and attended one of their conferences.
DONT PANIC
Be sure to check out Dr Hallowell. He is the coauthor of "Driven to Distraction" as well as their recent followup "Answers to Distraction".
I would recommend emailing him if there's nothing on this site about this particular therapy.
I spent three years in my graduate school days (which was now a decade ago... yikes!) administering the hardware/software for the Autogenics system in our community mental health center at Nova Southeastern University under Doil Montgomery, Ph.D. Neural feedback is also referred to as EEG biofeedback. Not only is there some good research in this area, but it's a nice, non-invasive and non-drug way to treat this disorder (which should be especially interesting to teens and children, where medications are less tested and proven).
Some basic positive empricial results supporting the use of EEG biofeedback in the treatment of ADHD from MEDLINE:
Neurofeedback treatment for attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder in children: a comparison with methylphenidate. in Appl Psychophysiol Biofeedback. 2003 Mar;28(1):1-12.
Fuchs T, Birbaumer N, Lutzenberger W, Gruzelier JH, Kaiser J.
Institute of Medical Psychology and Behavioral Neurobiology, Eberhard-Karls-University, Gartenstr. 29, 72074 Tubingen, Germany.
Clinical trials have suggested that neurofeedback may be efficient in treating attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). We compared the effects of a 3-month electroencephalographic feedback program providing reinforcement contingent on the production of cortical sensorimotor rhythm (12-15 Hz) and betal activity (15-18 Hz) with stimulant medication. Participants were N = 34 children aged 8-12 years, 22 of which were assigned to the neurofeedback group and 12 to the methylphenidate group according to their parents' preference. Both neurofeedback and methylphenidate were associated with improvements on all subscales of the Test of Variables of Attention, and on the speed and accuracy measures of the d2 Attention Endurance Test. Furthermore, behaviors related to the disorder were rated as significantly reduced in both groups by both teachers and parents on the IOWA-Conners Behavior Rating Scale. These findings suggest that neurofeedback was efficient in improving some of the behavioral concomitants of ADHD in children whose parents favored a nonpharmacological treatment.
The effects of stimulant therapy, EEG biofeedback, and parenting style on the primary symptoms of attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder. in Appl Psychophysiol Biofeedback. 2002 Dec;27(4):231-49.
Monastra VJ, Monastra DM, George S.
FPI Attention Disorders Clinic, 2102 E. Main Street, Endicott, New York 13760, USA. poppidoc@aol.com
One hundred children, ages 6-19, who were diagnosed with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), either inattentive or combined types, participated in a study examining the effects of Ritalin, EEG biofeedback, and parenting style on the primary symptoms of ADHD. All of the patients participated in a 1-year, multimodal, outpatient program that included Ritalin, parent counseling, and academic support at school (either a 504 Plan or an IEP). Fifty-one of the participants also received EEG biofeedback therapy. Posttreatment assessments were conducted both with and without stimulant therapy. Significant improvement was noted on the Test of Variables of Attention (TOVA; L. M. Greenberg, 1996) and the Attention Deficit Disorders Evaluation Scale (ADDES; S. B. McCarney, 1995) when participants were tested while using Ritalin. However, only those who had received EEG biofeedback sustained these gains when tested without Ritalin. The results of a Quantitative Electroencephalographic Scanning Process (QEEG-Scan; V. J. Monastra et al., 1999) revealed significant reduction in cortical slowing only in patients who had received EEG biofeedback. Behavioral measures indicated that parenting style exerted a significant moderating effect on the expression of behavioral symptoms at home but not at school.
Treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder with neurotherapy. in Clin Electroencephalogr. 2000 Jan;31(1):30-7.
Nash JK.
Behavioral Medicine Associates,
I'd like to reinforce the point that ADD medications exacerbate Tourette's symptoms!!! It could be that your daughter naturally has some slight inclination toward Tourette's, which was exaggerated when she began taking medications. There is every chance that going off the meds, or switching meds, will make her tics easier to control. Neural feedback therapy could therefore help in both areas, by getting her off the drugs.
I was diagnosed with ADD in elementary school and have been on and off drugs at various points in my life. I will say that they most definitely DO make a difference in my life. I take adderall and I have a really rough time going to class without it. I'm less attentive and get far less out of the experience without meds. Upon taking an IQ test my score went up a full 30 points when drugged. That kind of thing has real world effects on my life.
Is ADD overdiagnosed? It's probable given the lax screening practices I've heard of. I myself spent weeks being diagnosed at great expense and had to submit to a battery of tests. In response to another user in this thread posthumous diagnoses are considered speculative and not conclusive.
I find it disconcerting that you have formulated your judgement without any real world evidence other than your own personal experience. I have a rough time dealing with people upon admittance of my ADD as a result. It's terrible when people suddenly percieve you as having an imaginary illness. For me life is more 'real' when I'm on Adderall. I can think clearly, have conversations without being distracted and am generally more productive. The only downside to being on Adderall is a bit of drymouth and sleep problems (which don't occur if you take it in the morning as I do). I have no symptoms of addiction, in fact I occasionally forget to take Adderall and usually choose not to on the weekends or for low key events. I can live without Adderall; but my life is just so much more fulfilling being able to use it.
I implore you and everyone who reads this to take into consideration the seriousness of ADD for certain people, and ask that you not spread invalid, generalizing, anecdotal evidence about what is an important part of my life.
Photos.
When you concentrate on something it becomes prettier. Where is this true? It's true when you're in an external space that's beautiful, for one. For instance, in a club with good live jazz, where you can fall into being more aware of the space the sounds are in than you'd normally be aware of any space - and yet meet yourself in that space, finding yourself also able to concentrate clearly on other stuff you normally leave far in the background.
Okay, so the therapeutic technique you describe is to simulate an aspect of reality that's pretty much there when you're in good external spaces.
It's also much like a standard form of meditation: concentrating on a candle flame. Or concentrating on an image of a diety. The object of concentration, like great live music, becomes richer in your experience at the same time as you're able to better resolve other aspects of life. (Thus has power often in the past been ascribed to statuary.)
Schools don't want concentration, don't want trained attention of this sort. They're mostly ugly spaces, something even less interesting than a factory aesthetic (where at least there's real production being done). That's why 2/3rds of our kids leave them for the factory jobs that no longer are there, instead of sloughing on through a few more years to pass through college - despite that colleges are more often decent aesthetic spaces.
William James wrote cogently of the need to teach concentration as fundamental to education. The problem for our current schools is that kids who can concentrate will mostly want out of them. Because when you can concentrate at will, your will is often not going to be towards the less rewarding concentration on a teacher who typically was among the stupidest cohort at college.
I'd suggest seeing if there's a descendent of the old "free school" movement in your area for your daughter. She's probably too smart for her teachers. But she should learn concentration, whether through immersion in art, practice of traditional concentrative meditative techniques, or the techno repackaging of those techniques that you describe.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
Get all your cheap discount drugs at so and so.
What's next: chip-implants, borg-type software... Also, it might not even be a disease, but a demon bugging that kid. Yes, evil spirits can and do live within the body.
Various talk show hosts minimize and make fun of ADHD. They claim it isn't a disorder and that people can just "get over it". What you have to keep in mind is that in order for attention problems to be a disorder, they have to result in severe occupational or interpersonal impairment. For example, failing out of school. The critics do have a good point about pharmaceutical companies wanting people to take drugs. The advent of neuroimaging has revolutionized the field of Psychiatry. For the first time, PET scans and other imaging modalities are able to view brains of afflicted persons and see structural differences compared to normal persons. There have been a few key studies involving neuroimaging of ADHD patients that give a lot of insight. One study showed that compared to normal subjects, ADHD patients had different structural and functional anatomy in the brain. The critics responded by charging that medications caused "brain damage". Another key study was done that refuted this. Subjects with ADHD taking medications versus subjects with ADHD not taking meds were compared. Their brains were had the same structural differences prooving that medications do not cause "brain damage".
I'd be happy to provide literature references if any one is interested.
I have tries a number of different things to help with my ADD. Like you daughter I had problems handling the stimulant medications. I know the symdomes are simular, so some of what worked for me may help You might want to try looking into changes in her diet. I found lots of fresh veggies and fruits(think anti oxident). You may also want to try giving her a vitamin supplement strong in Phenylalanine and Glutamine. Flax seed should take care of it too. I eleminated basically all the dairy from my diet as well. Soy and rice milk can be substuted for almost anything Hope this helps. Its only from my own experience so take it with a grain of salt.
Oh my, I think Dave just turned into a bear.
What I've believed for some time now is that we do not fully understand what is happening. Much in the same way that cartoon like mind-maps were drawn decades ago, we use drugs to try to diagnose and treat.
I think that there is a place for medication, however, I also think that there isn't a place for medication. The trick really becomes figuring out what the person needs. Often, Doctors will prescribe drugs to quickly test theories and then only modify the dosage.
I believe that in these situations, until we can figure AD/HD out, it is up to the parents. There will be some very tough times as an accurate diagnosis is made, however with the proper research and especially observation and love, many parents have the ability to accurately determine the best course of action.
rejected (19) accepted (0)
Is there a psychological term related to getting your stories rejected on slashdot?
I read some time ago that a study had been done where they took a group of hyperactive children, and put them on a very strict diet of natural foods (the four basic food-groups WITHOUT preservatives or dyes or any other additives) and the kids hyperactivity cleared right up.
Think about it; we ingest A LOT of chemicals in our diet these days, much more than a few generations ago, when this problem was non-existent.
I'm not saying that this is THE cure, but don't you think ou should at least check it out before subjecting her young, developing mind to even MORE drugs?
And this means NO cheating, ie. "snacks" or "treats" have to be out of the question.
Good luck, may your daughter find peace.
I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
EEG Spectrum is a group of practitioners and researchers. They have a page on the application of the technology for ADHD type treatments. Also a variety of other articles and links on the tech there.
The EEG Spectrum uses hardware and software from NeuroCybernetics which includes some games you play by brain wave control. I tried some of these out a few years ago while looking into EEG tech for Virtual Reality applications.
BioFeedback Home Therapy is the home page for a couple doctors using biofeedback.
ADHD and the marjority of depression is related to the brain's supply of seratonin. Seratonin is a carrier which moves electrical charges across the synapses. The vast majority of the time, these are used once then thrown away, essentially. However, ADHD and depression are very directly related to the body's manufacture of seratonin. If the body doesn't make enough, signals don't get transferred. There are a number of good drugs, other than Ritalin, which can help. They typically inhibit the brain's destruction of seratonin for a little while. Over time, a few days, the brain has a more "normal" amount of seratonin.
I'm ADHD and was scared of this type of thing for a long time. Prozac and Ritalin are early-generation drugs. They're like sledgehammers. When I finally realized a low seratonin level is a strucutral/performance issue of the body, it was an incredible relief. Currently, I'm taking effexor which helps increase the level of 2 brain chemicals. For me, it does not remove the creativity, it makes me more aware of the linear nature of time and allows me to maintain focus on tasks better. I was scared I'd lose the creative edge. I was scared it would numb me. That hasn't been the case.
I agree that ADHD is not a disease, but for different reasons. I believe it is a real phenomenon caused by the overwhelming amount of material we are expected to pay attention to and absorb. It's no illusion that society moves at a faster pace than ever before, and I think we've reached the limit of what the human mind can keep up with. The solution isn't drugs or therapy, it's Slack!
School bores intelligent students, because the school system is designed to keep Americans uneducated and complacent. You drug them, and they find their school work interesting enough to complete it and get an A. Just like if you're drunk, stupid bar sluts are more interesting to talk to, so that you talk to them and get laid.
It's no different. Modern society places certain requirements on people. Intelligence can be a detriment. You can tune down the intelligence and its side effects with different drugs depending on the situation.
Without ritalin I wouldn't be productive, without alcohol I wouldn't get laid, without MDMA I wouldn't find love and without steroids I wouldn't be strong.
How did this make the frontpage of Slashdot? ADHD is a contrived "disorder" invented by psychologist quacks and pharmaceutical marketing geniuses.
ADHD is a formal way of describing a person who is too lazy or stupid to get his/her shit together.
I could say I expected more from Slashdot, but then again, I didn't really, especially after the "Multiple Chemical Sensitivity" BS article.
Take your kid off the drugs! I have ADHD, though as a 29 year old adult I am no longer to adversely effected by it. I never had drugs for it, and thankfully my parents would never have considered putting me on drugs for it. It does nto need chemical treatment. If you want to help your kid cope with ADHD, all you have to do is find a way to train her how to focus. my focus training started by accident; i picked up a fantasy book that was actually designed for teenagers-adults when I was less then 10. It was actually interesting enough to occupy most of my brain long enough for me to focus and jsut read it with out fidgeting to much. As I grew older, I persued learnign about what ever interested me, which included various philosophies and meditation. It's the original neuro-feedback, and I trust it more than the experimental form. But even if you don't beleive in meditation, medication for ADHD is bad, and makes kids dependant on a drug to handle their thougths for them, rather than learnign to think and focus on their own.
"It takes a very long time to count to 2 in binary." ~'Fourlegged'
Sorry, can someone please provide an appropriate meme package on whether there is any effective difference or simularity between Neural Feedback Training and various Meditation techniques. I would be interested to know the level of effect that meditation has on ADD/ADHD.
Just wondering after having gone through my own childhood getting various labels whether this ADD/ADHD has always been around and is just another label, or is it some effect of societal changes. Haven't paid attention until recently. Anybody got some informative links?
I've found that simple breathing exercises allow me to calm down mentally and enter the zone where I can focus on study. This often requires some creative visualisation as that seems most effective.
I query whether meditative discipline is something we lost when we began to disregard some traditional religious practices and rituals (not that I agree with many of them). These all [generalisation] have in common certain practices involving measured repetative acts such as utterances of texts that control breathing and/or the manipulation rosaries. I personally don't agree with bringing 'Your God / My God' into the educational system (unless for cultural studies) but would a neutral meditative regime be of benefit as PE used to be?
BTW - Speaking of Neural Feedback Training, does anybody know if those cool seventies Meditation lights (a la Exorcist2) still exist?
...and is the treatment doesn't work...
SLAP 'EM!!! HARD!
That will give them a neural treatment!
No sorry. Thar was rude. What I wanted to say is I really hope this works.
And even though ADHD seems to have signs of a fashion desease, if it will make people's lives even a little beter it's great!
Privacy is terrorism.
Ritalin may be speed, but how can you just flat out say "don't give it to kids"? That makes no sense! Do you know the US goverment gives speed to FIGHTER PILOTS? And also German NAZI's used it to fight better during the war?
If anything kids should do MORE speed.
My wife and I had my son try bio-feedback when he was about 16. I'll have to say that I did not notice much difference. This is probably because he did not really take it seriously. He later admitted that he thought the whole thing was a 'crock', and just goofed off during the sessions.
So, as with any psychololgical treatment, the person first needs to admit they have a problem, and want to do some work to 'fix' that problem. If this is not the case, don't even bother.
The treatments were very expensive, so I would not do something like this lightly.
ADHD is not real and you're full of shit. Kids are supposed to make "noises, words, and so-forth", that's what they do.
I was diagnosed with ADD (with Hyperactivity) as a grammar school child. I always had problems socially, in school, etc (probably why I became a hacker).
I have to say, I do NOT recommend medication. I took Ritalin for a little over a year while I was in 6th through the beginning of 8th grade. Certainly it made me feel (and act) calmer, but I also felt less creative.
I mean, think about it. You're giving your kid a medication which is chemically similar to speed. If you crush it up and snort it, you get high. If you go off it after taking it for several years you have horrible withdrawls. And kids who take Ritalin have much higher rates of drug addiction in their later years than kids who do not.
And one final thing: as some previous posters noted, ADD is not necessarily a "disorder" as much as it's a different way of thinking. ADD kids tend to be very intelligent and creative. They tend to have strong verbal abilities. Part of growing up, for me, has been learning to deal with ADHD. Yes, I'm easily distracted, yes, I have high test scores and a low GPA, but I've learned to deal with my condition as something that has pros and cons, but isn't necessarily "worse" than anything else.
I'm now a senior in high school, and all in all, I'm glad I never took Ritalin for any extended length of time. It's probably like Lobotomy(TM) for hackers to be.
I have discovered a truly marvelous
From here Scroll down the page to read the debate and see the different views. It amazes me how much anecdotal evidence and sensationalized news coverage seems to have distorted this debate. The media just wants to stir up controversy and will dig up the cranks who don't believe in ADD. See my above post for my personal experience.
Photos.
My best friend's daughter was diagnosed with ADHD last year... She's fine now... wanna know what he did?
He threw away the TV and stopped feeding her processed foods, namely meats and dairy products that are pumped with so many hormones and pesticides that it's a wonder we haven't all died from them...
3 Months after, she was fine...
Drugs aren't the solution to an irresponsible lifetyle...
I'm not a psychology student, and I'm not an expert in the subject. I'm speaking entirely from personal experience and research.
You said your daughter was diagnosed with ADHD. It's possible that this is true. However, there is another possibility. An autism-related disorder called Asperger's Syndrome (AS) shares many of the same symptoms as ADHD. Almost everyone with AS will pass the ADHD diagnosis. Some of the symptoms you described sound very similar to this disorder, especially in the social aspects.
I think it would be worth your time to have your daughter tested for Asperger's Syndrome. There are treatments for this "disease" but no silver bullets. I suggested this as a possibility because you are posting on Slashdot. Asperger's Syndrome causes people to develop an unusually strong interest in a certain subject (often technical). Many "geeks" and "nerds" such as myself are AS and aren't really aware that their social impairment and their computer skills are connected. It is believed that Asperger's Syndrome is genetic.
Regardless of what your daughter has, I would not recommend biofeedback. It's expensive and usually coupled with several medications with nasty side-effects. My brother has been going through this treatment for several months now, and I can tell you it's not very impressive. I'm sorry that I can't offer much more information than that-- I'm not the one having the procedure done.
I wish you the best of luck and hope you find a way to make your daughter more social.
anonymous
Please be carefull with any side effects. My son has ADHD and we have tried ALL the drugs and even combinations to try and get rid of the side effects - all to no avail. We finally decided that we would take him off all the medication because he was being teased and felt bad and hid his face when ever he could feel the faciakl ticks. Today he is doing much better (he is going on 12 now) which could be due to his body changing (all the doctor's we have seen say that they could grow out of it). You must do what is best for your daughter.
-->If Linux was written by Bill Gates & Co. - no one would want to switch !!
Check out http://www.eegspectrum.com/ for more info on the technology, training, providers, etc. My fiance is training to administer the therapy and it is built on a sound theory and works for many disorders like ADHD/ADD, sleep disorders, OCD, etc.
Just because you thought it was a placebo doesn't mean that the placebo effect wasn't in effect. Otherwise, researchers could just tell subjects that the (real) pill they are taking is fake, and not have to go through the bother of contrast / comparasin groups.
Another issue with assessing therapy is that many people who are experiencing difficulties overcome them 'naturally'. Depressed people become undepressed, anxious people become calm. For whatever reason, you went through a rough patch. Then you came through it. Was it the therapy, or chance? This is the reason why we shouldn't promote therapies based on a single (or a few) positive results.
Btw, I don't know anything about Neural Feedback Therapy, so I'm not trying to bash it. I'm just making my points.
I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 20 after having problems in university courses (before that, school was never challenging enough to force me to focus for more than 15 minutes at a time). I've found it incredibly difficult to find resources on ADHD for adults, even my physician only really has experience with children. This treatment looks really interesting.
I'm still struggling through my undergrad courses and have recently switched from Ritalin to Dexadrine. Any treatments or resources on ADD for adults would be much appreciated. I'm sure there must be others in the slashdot crowd who can provide me with information.
And please, anyone who thinks the disorder is some big hoax can forget about responding. I have blisters on my feet from pacing around while trying to do programming assignments, I don't need your laughably sheltered opinion.
Let me start off by saying thank you to the poster for not settling for a drug treatment. I am a very very outspoken anti-drugs for ADD person. As a child (starting at 4) I was diagnosed as ADHD (1982, so not in the middle of the 'every kid has ADD' phase). I would only sleep for a couple hours a night and the rest of the time I'd just rummage around my room, tearing off wallpaper, throwing things around or generally harassing my parents.
... just think of it as being amortized over the life of your child ... just pennies a day!
They put me on ritalin when I was about 6 after giving up on training me, and found it didn't work - it actually made me more hyper.
Thats when they moved me to Dexadrine. For the americans out there, it's the same drug some people use to lose weight. It immediately worked, helping me focus and not be so wired.
The downside was, I was moody and depressed. I was anti-social and angry a lot. but I was 8 and people didn't care really. They wrote it off as depression because my parents broke up. But when they took me off the pills for the summer, life was grand again. I was energetic to a fault and had lots of friends. Come school time, back on the drugs and back to quiet, boring, socially acceptable me.
Fast forward to highschool and I'm still on the stupid things. September was great, I'd start taking the pills and wouldn't eat for a weak (about the only upside to em, great weight loss). But around that age you start to become more self aware and I realized that I hated myself because I wasn't really me. I took these stupid pills every morning and I became who my parents and teachers wanted me to be, but I wasn't really me. I didn't laugh as much, I didn't talk as much, but I got good grades.
Around grade 11 I said 'fuck this' and started to not take the pills. Then my parents started threatening me and grounding me if I didn't take them. So I'd pop them in my mouth then spit them out. Then they started to check my mouth to make sure I swallowed them. So I found a new trick - you could pull apart the gel caps and all the little balls of medicine inside would fall out. So I'd quickly dump them on the floor or sink then take the pill. That worked well and I started to feel more like myself.
Except then my grades started slipping.
So thats when I turned to the psycho babble they'd been teaching me at my semi montly sessions. They called it 'coping strategies' and taught me how to recognize when I wasn't behaving well or focusing like I should. Instead of just throwing pills at the problem, they put me in control of my life and said 'these are the tools to make things better for you, but you need to do them'. They made me responsible for my behaviour and grades.
So I started with them. At this point I can't identify what I do, but my friends will notice when I *click* in and out of focus now. Apparently I'm much better and I can recognize when I'm having ADD moments. Sometimes I have ADD days. I've learned to work with instead of against the ADD. I now run dual monitors on my PC so I can do more than one thing easily. my desk has lots of distractions on it, but they're all little. I can jump from work to a distraction for 30 seconds to give my brain a break then back to work. I can focus much better now that I've learned these skills, and I dno't need pills to make me work well.
So, the moral of this story is that pills aren't necessary. They inhibit your mental and social and emotional growth by turning you into a little robot. I found that I could actually feel myself in a little tunnel when I took them and things seemed duller. Teaching coping skills is, I think, the key. Teaching your child how to recognize when they're not paying attention is the first step, then teaching them how to focus when needed, and let their mind go when not needed. If this Neural Feedback Training does that (and it sounds like it does), then go for it! Don't spare any expense
We emerge from our mother's womb an unformatted diskette; our culture formats us. - Douglas Coupland
As someone who has been on various forms of ADD/ADHD treatment meds for the past 21 years (i was diagnosed before the larger rash of overdiagnosis began), I have some comments and advice.
I've had a love/hate relationship with my meds for most of my life. Like many people on psychiatric drugs of one form or another, I go through cycles of declaring that the medication is not good for me, that it is not necessary, and stop taking it. In those interim periods, I've tried a large number of alternatives, but have always found myself back on the meds.
First off, some comments on comments I've seen here. It has been my experience that individuals who are truly ADD react very differently to stimulants than those who are not ADD. For ADD folks, the idea of a stimulant as a recreational substance, especially an overly strong stimulant such as methamphetamine, is unappealing. I will admit that occasionally bumping the dose slightly to get through a long night is not uncommon, but I find my relationship with my meds to be the polar opposite of an addict. I have always tried to minimize my doses, I intentionally miss days when I feel like it has built up too much in my system, and I'd be pleased to do anything to get off the stuff.
Even at small doses, stimulants make many people slightly more irritable, they mess with sleep schedules, and while they seem to increase quality of social interactions at first, they create very linear, inward, analytical, logical thinking. This can be a bad thing for those who have normally random thought processes, as it stifles creativity in favour of productivity. After years of trial and error, I've found that what works best for me is to have some off-time from the drugs at certain intervals, to allow all of my creative thoughts to play themselves out.
For those who have suggested that use of these stimulants causes addictive tendencies, there are some solutions. One drug, Pemoline, branded Cylert(tm) provides an amphetamine-like effect, without risk of addiction. Unfortunately, this is no longer a preferred choice for children because it has been correlated with a slightly increased risk of kidney failure. Another, more recent, alternative, is Modafinil, branded Provigil(tm), which was discussed on slashdot some time ago as an alertness agent. Unfortunately, I know from experience that Modifinil does not work for all people.
My personal experience, and this is only that, of 21 years on these drugs is that if there are externally noticable side-effects, aside from occasionally spacing out, of any ADD drug, especially typical-stimulant effects, the dosage is too high.
Anyone will respond to stimulants with increased productivity. One has to be very careful to make sure that this is productivity and singlemindedness does not exceed a certain threshold. When normally voluntary muscles are being affected involuntarily, I believe this threshold has been exceeded.
Its difficult to work this out with a child, especially one new to the meds. If the desired affects can not be obtained without getting involuntary muscle contractions as a side effect, consider trying Amphetamine Combo Salt Tablets, branded Adderal(tm) instead. I've found them to be more effective with reduced side-effects.
Regardless of the meds, and regardless of what your doc says, they do build up over time, you can feel it in your system. Taking a break every now and then is really recommended. Your child may eventually come to know when she is becoming gradually more irritable or needs a little brain break, give her the opportunity to have that experience. It will make her ultimately a happier and more creative person.
As for holistic treatment, theres only one thing thats *really* worked for me to balance things out so far, and that is Vipassana Meditation. Its really too much for a child, though... very difficult for many adults to get through. It teaches you in a rather boot-camp like method how to quiet your mind and be aware of your reaction pr
"Mrs. Gallagher, I called you here today to discuss your granddaughter's problem. Now, upon reflection, I think a combination of prayer and Ritalin could eliminate her excess energy."
"How dare you! My Mary has no problem. My granddaughter is a star! Look at that face, she looks like a young Elizabeth Taylor. You may call her hyperactive but if the Good Lord gave her excess energy then, by God, no one's taking it from her! If you don't appreciate that, maybe the problem is not my granddaughter, maybe the problem is this school."
Not since Marie-Antoinette played milkmaid has looking simple and honest been so fake and complicated.
Just because someone has an irregular heartbeat, we do not say their heart is special, or has a different way of beating. We say there is something wrong with their heart that prevents them from leading a healthy, productive life. We would probably encourage that person to undergo surgery or drug therapy.
We often forget that the mind is an organ, and can get sick, just as the liver or heart can. ADHD prevents people from leading healthy, productive lives, and is most definitely a disorder. It stands to reason, and studies have shown, that drug therapies are effective in treating ADHD.
While people have been misdiagnosed with ADHD, and while medicine isn't always the best option for every individual, we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss ADHD as a disorder and Ritalin as an effective treatment when there is so much evidence to support it.
web design experiments
My family noticed positive changes in my behavior. Back then we didn't have ADD or any of that, it was just hyper kids. They say it helped a lot. I did spend a lot less time in the principles office. Not knowing that I was acting bad to begin with, it's hard to personally judge how my attitude changed if at all.
I'll never know if I would have turned out any different if I hadn't had such an odd diet. But I do know that I learned to eat a lot different than most other people I know. I eat very little sweets, lots of fresh vegetables and meats, and I'm very healthy and fit because of it.
Post: Sigged, for your pleasure.
Of course, the school system in the US (I'm going to assume you are in the US) treats all children as if they are all the same.
Children are dynamic. One child may learn one way, another may take months, or years to learn that same subject.
The Department of Education assumes that there is a "normal" that ALL kids should conform to. This is patent homogenisation of our "culture". And thusly teachers assume the same thing that all kids have to learn stuff at the same rate, and if one kid doesn't fit in all the round holes like all the other round pegs, he's "learning disabled" or "special". ADD is a disease created by exposure to a defective and arbitrary education establishment.
I'm a dyslexic. People call me learning disabled. Dyslexia is a gift. The ability to think visually is rare. And as a result of my "disability" I couldn't learn things at the same rate as the rest of the munchins. So first I was labeled "ADD" then "Passive Agressive" when I didn't want to play the games. They put me on drugs and all kinds of shit for no reason. I didn't pay attention in class because it bored the shit out of me. I didn't feel like jumping through the hoops, and genuflecting like the rest of all the other kids. It's assembly line mentality.
Do your kids a favor and pull them from State and Corporate controlled education. Anytime the government or big bidniss hands you a package that says "Free" on it, you had better listen for the ticking of a time bomb. Anytime someone tells you that your kid is damaged, and they aren't bleeding or drooling on themselves from actual mental retardation, they are going to follow up their prognosis with a perscription or a "treatment" to sell you. It's no big secret that the kids diagnosed with ADD often have above average intelligence. I see it as discrimination against kids that refuse to be boxed in a stifling and ultimately stupifying education system.
Do your kid a favor, take 'em off the Methamphetamine derivatives. When a teacher says, "I can't teach your kid, he's not co-operating/paying-attention/getting good grades" What they are really saying is, "I'm to rigid to change my teaching style to one that will educate and keep the child interested at the same time." The Human mind is only capable of learning around a dozen things a day. And even then, only the first fifteen minutes are crucial. So forcing your kid to sit in a classroom for eight hours a day is pointless when the kid is only going to be able to learn for two hours a day.
So instead they load your kid up on crank and tell you all the "progress" he's made in being a good little lamb just like the rest of the sheeple.
I am of exactly the opposite opinion, ADD/ADHD is a disorder and not treating it (when properly diagnosed) is just cruelty plain and simple.
I have ADD and went from being last in my class in High School and failing out of college to graduating with Honors and going on to graduate school at the finest university in the country, after being prescribed Ritalin.
I hold more than a dozen patents and have had research papers published at world class conferences, so as the poster says, I am a very insightful, creative, and interesting folk. And this is only enhanced not suppressed by medication.
I still suffer the effects of going so late in life before being diagnosed, I can't spell for beans having learned all the wrong spellings when I was young. Its all very nice to talk about not trying to harm her "very special mind", but failing to treat her WILL damage her intellect forever, while treating her will allow her intellect to develop.
-jon
I'm getting really tired of all these stupid shit pyschiatrists diagnosing anyone who is energetic and different w/ ADHD, or ADD, or whatever their latest buzzword of the decade is.
Think about it. Almost all of the brightest minds of the history of the human race have been not "normal" in one way or another. Manic depressive, hyperactive, unable to sleep, etc. A lot of them didn't do well in school. Hell, Einstein quit school .
So rather than spending the money to assure that your child has a healthy environment that encourages them to learn, society would rather funnel money to a bunch of fucking quacks that dose their kids up on harmful drugs ( think about : Ritalin is an amphetamine, as are a number of the other drugs used to "treat" ADHD ) until their kid becomes "normal". Wonder how many potential Van Goghs ended up doing graphic design because they became "normal"?
What I've briefly read from googling seems to suggest that there's no drugs or any physical aspect to the therapy, but they don't come out and say it ( as in bragging about natural and good their therapy is ), so I really doubt that it doesn't involve some physical "therapy". And the harm that I think a lot of psychiatrists and psychologists do is irreparable ( while there are some good ones, my experience is that they are few and far between ).
To the parent who posted this : what the hell do you think you're doing feeding your kid Ritalin? It's fucking speed. Repeat after me : Ritalin is an amphetamine. Of course she's going to have nervous tics. Probably doesn't sleep very well either, unless the head shrinker has her on downers as well ( which a lot of them do ). Think about it : the human race did quiet well before we had Ritalin, psychiatrists, or all this self-help bullshit, and I think we'll be even better when those things are gone. Let your kid be a kid. Of course they're hyper. Kids are. Not interested in school? Name one kid who likes being at school, even if they do like some of the subjects. If she's not interested in school, try getting her interested in some of the subjects. Trust me, I've been down that road, and from the child's perspective, it's horrible. Noone tries to pay attention to what you really need, they just try to tell you what you need to do and give you "medicine" until you can't think or feel anything but what's right in front of you. Then the parents are really surprised when their teenager ends up a violent drug-addict. Christ, it took me years to unfuck my head from what my family, the courts, mental hospitals, schools, and shrinks did to me.
PC moderators can suck my White pierced, tattooed dick. If you think pride == hate, s/dick/Aryan meat mallet/g.
There are several posts in this conversation saying that jamesh should just ask a doctor. Obviously their advice should be heeded (and the more diverse qualified opinions the better). Keep in mind that most doctors will not recommend the type of treatment that he's asking about, at the very least since it's their ass on the line. Also ADD is an interesting thing to ask a doctor about since their opinions are probably as diverse as the people in this discussion. I would recommend findind a doctor that's slow to prescribe.
I think he knew what he was asking for in this forum.
I don't try to be right, I just try to make people think
Drugs are still better than dropping out of scool, loosing all sozial contacts, beeing drawn back for about 5-10 years in your ruined life and posting hopeless comments on shalshdot in bad english, because you never learnt it or anything else that could challange your mind... i know what i'm talkin about... hey wait.. forgot my happy pills... there.. better... hey.. drugs are 3v1l !!!11!1
ADHD is what I was diagnosed with in 3rd grade and the school demanded that I take Ritalin.
Was one in the morning, one at lunch. So I took half the dosage that the other ADHD folks did because I threw away my lunch pill because my parents weren't supervising me then.
Since I started taking it at that age I began to stay at home and simply watch TV and play Nintendo instead of going outside and socializing. With this amount of isolation from society and never talking to anybody at school I gradually found it more difficult to interpret body language and emotion (still have this problem to today, but have managed to mask it).
I searched the web when I was in my mid teens for other people that had this problem and ended up coming across Asperger Syndrome. Five years later I talked to my family doctor about my problem (but never said anything about Ritalin) and she agreed.
Anyone think it was caused by Ritalin?
Candle burns its brightest in the dark
Recently I was diagnosed with A.A.A.D.D. -- Age Activated Attention Deficit Disorder. This is how this insidious disease manifests itself:
I decided to wash my car. As I start toward the garage, I notice that there is mail on the hall table. I decide to go through the mail before I wash the car. I lay my car keys down on the table, put the junk mail in the trashcan under the table, and notice that the trashcan is full. So I decide to put the bills back on the table and take out the trash first.
But then I think, since I'm going to be near the mailbox when I take out the trash anyway, I may as well pay the bills first. I take m y checkbook off the table, and see that there is only one check left. My extra checks are in my desk in the study, so I go to my desk where I find the can of pop that I had been drinking. I'm going to look for my checks, but first I need to push the pop aside so that I don't accidentally knock it over.?
I see that the pop is getting warm, and I decide I should put it in the refrigerator to keep it cold. As I head toward the kitchen with the pop, a vase of flowers on the counter catches my eye -- they need to be watered. I set the pop down on the counter, and I discover my reading glasses that I've been searching for all morning. I decide I better put them back on my desk, but first I'm going to water the flowers.
I set the glasses back down on the counter, fill a container with water and suddenly I spot the TV remote. Someone left it on the kitchen table. I realize that tonight when we go to watch TV, we will be looking for the remote, but nobody will remember that it's on the kitchen table, so I decide to put it back in the den where it belongs, but first I'll water the flowers. I splash some water on the flowers, but most of it spills on the floor.
So, I set the remote back down on the table, get some towels and wipe up the spill. Then I head down the hall trying to remember what I was planning to do. At the end of the day: the car isn't washed, the bills aren't paid, there is a warm can of pop sitting on the counter, the flowers aren't watered, there is still only one check in my checkbook, I can't find the remote, I can't find my glasses, and I don't remember what I did with the car keys.
Then when I try to figure out why nothing got done today, I'm really baffled because I know I was busy all day long, and I'm really tired. I realize this is a serious problem, and I'll try to get some help for it, but first I'll check my e- mail.
I have acute ADHD. When I was last tested (in college) I came out with like 17 of 18 characterics or something. I have been off and on various medications over the course of my life, including ritalin and dexadrine.
The problem with your argument is that it mistakenly assumes that treating the symptoms of a way of thinking and brain activity (loss of attention) inherantly involves the loss of any creativity n the same person. Essentially you draw an conclusive connection between two characteristics with NO evidence to support that conclusion.
According to your logic a "life of the party" guy who gets treatment for alcoholism will no longer be fun or interesting, because it is the alcoholic "party guy" component of his personality that makes him interesting. Isn't it possible he is an outgoing and interesting person who happens to be an alcoholic? And that he will STILL be so, sober or not?
What if many insightful and inventive people happen to have ADHD, but not all ADHD people are insightful and inventive? Isn't it actually both possible and likely that treating the lack of attentiveness will allow a truly creative person to concentrate on and further develop the creative ideas he comes up with?
In my experience I have found that this is the case. I am, like you state, a fairly creative and insightful person. I'm the kid who disassembled teh family television to figure out how it worked, who learns a new technology in ten minutes to help someone else, etc. When I take a methamphetamine like ritalin or dexadrine it just allows me to focus VERY deeply into whatever i am doing. Instead of doing something else every 30 minutes I can sit and churn out the same thing for like 3 hours at a go.
Yes, there are side effects, and I SPECIFICALLY don't like ritalin very much (it makes me feel like I'm tripping and makes me very socially uncomfortable). However, for someone whose productivity is that of a gnat without it the treatment offered by Meths is a god-send.
I'm sorry if you have an addictive personality and you fell into a hole as a result of a meth prescription. However, I see that more as a personal problem you had and not an indication of the merits or general problems associated with methamphetamines. Ironically the only people I've seen who get addicted to meth drugs are people who AREN'T ADHD positive (like some of my friends in college). ADHD folks usually couldn't care less.
-Rick
This is from one of JamesH's previous /. postings.
5 5602
It provides some supporting evidence that they have higher priorities in their life than their child.
Mhttp://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=91154&cid=78
" Me to wife: How the heck could you spend $400 on clothes?
Wife to me: Don't worry, I got about $1000 worth."
Take care of her! Do not use her for fucking medical experiments.
An ADHD kid has it a little harder than the average kid, and it's not fair, but the best way to overcome these is personal responsibility and commitment to doing a little more work to develop a little more self control.
Anything else is voodoo science or abdication of personal responsibilities. This is only grand if you don't mind your kid signing up for a lifetime of 12-step programs and excuses aplenty.
I know this MIGHT seem offtopic when discussing neural feedback, but when talking about ADHD, reminding people that Bipolar is often mistaken for ADHD should be repeated over and over.
I *KNOW* this through personal experience that ritalin can short-term help, but long term hurt, but that (for me) classic bipolar meds work great, 4+years and still happy for someone clueing me in to bipolar masquerading as ADD.
So, mod this down for having nothing to say about neural feedback, but mod it back up for being very very relevant to anyone still struggling for a correct diagnosis
I heard earlier this month that some big exec at a pharmacutical company said that as much as 50% of medications don't work for the people they are perscribed to because of their genetics. While I believe that the number above is exaguated, don't forget that it's entirely possible that the ridilin is doing very little for what it was prescribed for, in which case the trade off of taking it (side effects, for example) might not be worth it in your case.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
They don't quite give them speed. Rather, they like to recruit men who had ADD/ADHD earlier in life, and keep them unmedicated. This causes the same effect as speed as a normal person, and their overactive minds help them become excellent pilots for making split-second decisions.
About three years ago I was given a student for weekend classes. We'll call him N. N was a cute little Thai boy about eight years old. He caused me some trouble during my classes, but I could deal with him.
After about seven sessions, when his mother came in for an update on his studies, I told her that I was not a counselor or specifically trained in detecting disorders like this, but I thought that N might have an attention span type disorder. I encouraged her to have him looked at.
He was diagnosed full ADD and put on medication. This medication radically changed his personality. Again, I say, before that, he was a cute little boy who just had trouble concentrating. Because of this change, he couldn't interact with the other children in the class and was often mocked, though I took steps to limit it. Thai children are even more vicious than in my country (where I was not treated well, as many of you).
From what I understand, his medication level has only gone up since then. He has become eceptionally moody and I can immediately tell whether he has skipped his medicine for the day, which he does because he doesn't like the effect it has on him.
N, like many Thai children from a upper-middle class family, has a nanny from Burma and two absentee parents. His nanny is fully under his control, and so N gets to eat or drink anything he want and play unlimited computer games or watch TV until late at night. These have certainly hindered any treatment that could be given to him.
I believe in my heart that, if N spent more time in a loving, structured environment, with limits on stimulants like caffeine and sugar and stimulation like his gameboy, PS2, computer, and TV, that he would deal with his condition much better than he does.
N has tutors in several subjects who can't control him or deal with him in class, and they rarely last longer than a few months. I have been teaching him for about three years now, and his mother keeps him with me because she says that I am the only one who can do it. I don't know about that, because we generally see less progress in my class with him than we hope for.
We battle almost every week because I can't let him control the class in fairness to the other students there, but he still comes to me because he loves me and he knows that I love him. I try my best with him, and when we hit bottom together, he hugs me and cries, and I sometimes do, too.
I am thankful that I grew up with a severely mentally handicapped and autistic sibling, because it gives me the strength to deal with children like N on a daily basis.
I'm not sure why I wrote this exactly, except that I thought it might be relevant for someone reading.
Put identity in the browser.
I have been looking into similar treatments for myself, since I really REALLY hate the way the stimulant meds make me feel. They do help me get some clarity, but I'm miserable the whole time. I was recently looking for alternative treatments and stumbled upon neural feedback. I was very interested in this thread, hoping that somebody else might have had experience with the treatment. Instead, it's the same old "IANAD, but Ritalin sux0rz" stuff.
Oh well...
As an aside, I got a great christmas gift this year: The Wild Divine game. It uses a USB-connected biofeedback sensor to control the game. Basically, you get to learn some good meditative skills and apply them in a game setting. It's not neural feedback therapy, but I have found it useful in learning relaxation techniques and I have found it to be very helpful in achieving mental calm...something pretty novel for me.
If you would like your daughter to try this type of therapy, the Wild Divine game may be a good place to start. It's not as cheap as other video games, but it's cheaper than talking to a neural feedback therapy specialist. I bet you'll be pleasantly surprised.
Hello,
First, let me start off by saying that I have in fact taken this "feedback" therapy, or, more accurately known as EEG/EMG biofeedback therapy.
A little background information on ADHD... trust me, I've done my homework on this as I have the condition. The strongest medical explaination of ADHD (which encompasses the former ADD... more later) is a rapid decline of oxygen metabolism in the prefrontal lobe during periods of thought requiring concentration. This kind of conditition can lead to two forms of ADHD: inattentive and overactive... I happen to fall into the former category. Basically, EEG waves can be measured through the skull/scalp in the picovolt range by use of an amplifier connected to a small probe stuck to the scalp by use of electrolytic gel similar in consistancy to vaseline. When EEG signals are filtered, they can be separated into waves in the .1 second duration and .5 second duration. ADHD individuals show a marked amount of "slow" wave amplitude over "fast" wave amplitude.
Someone mentioned earlier in the post that he was unable to alter his brain function in a short period of time; a just statement. I attended therapy for nearly 3 weeks after diagnosis before seeing any kind of large changes in brain activity while concentrating. The excercises used started off with concentrating on an object in a video monitor to mentally "push" it along... and later was changed to academic study of exceedingly boring material. As my scores improved, so did the quality and depth of the notes I wrote during a timed interval of study.
Now, coming down to it. ADHD is usually a male-dominant trait, passed from father to son... explaining the vastly larger amount of males with the condition.
I specifically did NOT choose drug therapy as it would have prevented me from service in the Marine Corps. Simply put, I'm a rock in a traditional education environment, but continue to score in the 130 range with reputable IQ tests. My doctor in fact was the person who encouraged me to satisfy my "thrill seeker" personality (which is somewhat common in ADHD individuals). Since my diagnosis, I continue to be a United States Marine, having endured training such as aircrew school and SERE, and now get to fly around in KC-130 tactical aerial refueling aircraft as a Crewchief/Flight Mechanic. I have also attained my private pilot's license, parachute jump license, and have started racing a stock RX-7 in autocross. Major "Pappy" Boyington of the Black Sheep squadron was also of the ADHD personality. What can I say? It feels good to go fast.
It is my firm belief that your daughter does NOT need stimulant therapy, and would benefit from the somewhat unconventional EEG biofeedback therapy. If you contact me privately at my email address, I will be happy to converse with you over the phone about my doctor and how to contact him for more information.
Hope this clears up any doubts you had about this somewhat unconventional therapy method
CheersThere are many other medications available for ADD/ADHD. It sounds like Ritalin is the wrong one. Talk to your child's doctor. If your child's psychiatrist is unfamiliar with other available treatment options, get a different psychiatrist. I would suggest avoiding dexadrine as well as attempting to counter the side affects with tri-cyclic anti-depressants. Talk to your daughter. Ask her what makes her feel best.
Pictures? Their are currently 100,000+ medical pictures and/or articles on the net. Please provide a like to one that has been peer reviewed.
Thank You.
The Dispossessed by Ursula K LeGuin mentioned "brainwave training" in passing.
Heck, I want to try it. conform
I always call attention to the fact that many of our greatest minds, a perfect example being Albert Einstein, would today have been diagnosed with ADD, prescribed stimulants, and had the insights that they would have otherwise shared with the world snuffed out and replaced with mindless conformity.
Einstein did not exhibit the symptoms that are typically diagnosed as ADD. He did not play well with the other kids, but he was very good at concentrating. That could be considered similar to autism, but is not at all like ADD.From the AIP website:
(It is my personal opinion that Ritalin is useful in many cases, but has been generally over-prescribed. The problem is that, due to feminist theory, boys are no longer allowed to be boys.)
If you would like more information on my bold new treatments, please send away for this free brochure entitled "You Can Either Calm Down or I Can Pop You in the Mouth Again.".
There is a website which offers a great deal of information on this therapy. The site is commercial, but they have informational and testimonial videos available online which may be of help. Find it here.. Best of luck.
Sometimes I wonder if I have ADHD.
I did poorly at school and could never focus or think about it unless it was incredibly interesting. I did zero homework in my time.
Even now at work I struggle to keep doing a single task, usually finding small unnecessary distractions (such as skimming slashdot) to relieve the burning desire to do something else, anything else. Heck, like someone joked about, I don't think I've ever forced myself to read an entire slashdot article in over three years of reading.
I'm not lazy and develop code madly when I'm finally onto something, but can't even bear thinking about continuing stuff, much less trying. It's almost claustrophobic.
Is this normal I Hate Work (I don't, I actually love my job) and Slashdot Is Boring or does it sound like ADHD?
If I do have ADHD, fuck the side effects, whats the most effective way of controlling it?
Our son (now just shy of 5 years old) was diagnosed ADHD 2 years ago. Firstly, we disagreed with the diagnosis because both my wife and I have difficulty understanding how you can tell the difference in a 3 year old between rambunctious behaviour and ADHD. Our opinion is that Ritalin is grossly over prescribed by doctors as a "cure all" for kids who are just naturally slightly hyperactive. In the 70's Valium was known as "Mothers little helper" as it helped mum (mom for you Americans) get through a stressful day with the kidlets. Mothers little helper is now Ritalin.
All ranting aside yes, there are definitely people who suffer ADHD and require something like Ritalin to help them proceed through life in what we consider is a normal state. But we feel that the number of actual sufferers in comparison to the number being diagnosed is very low.
Your daughter may very well be an ADHD sufferer and I applaud you looking for alternative treatments. Remember that Ritalin becomes less effective over time and the dosage needs to be increased to maintain the same effect. For example, by the time your daughter is 12 she could be requiring the medication 6-10 times a day instead of the happy pill once in the morning and once at night.
I know bugger all about Neural Feedback Training but the first thoughts I had were how do you make a 3 year old sit down and concentrate for a period of time like that? How do you make them comprehend the point of the training? And most importantly, how do you measure success if the child is to remain on Ritalin during treatment? Are you willing to take your daughter off Ritalin while she undergoes NFT? Just some points to consider...
Now, back to our son. 2 years ago he was totally out of control and exhibited all the classic symptoms of ADHD. We refused to put him on Ritalin and found a clinical dietician who recommended we try a diet known as the Failsafe Diet. This diet is designed to eliminate Amines, Salicylates, colours, flavours and preservatives from all foods as well as eliminate the use of household chemicals such as Deodorant sprays, floor cleaners etc. We applied the diet and within 10 days noticed an enormous improvement in behaviour, concentration and attitude. He's been on the diet for 2 years now and while we maintain it he is a great kid, no issues at all.
It isn't a fad diet, it was designed by the Australian Royal Prince Alfred Hospital under strict clinical guidlines. It provides a consistent balanced nutritional intake for a child to continue to develop. Only thing they miss out on is "junk food". No big deal, we save a fortune by not going to McDonalds every week.
We've introduced other people with ADHD diagnosed kids to the diet as well as some with severely Asthmatic kids. Both groups have responded remarkably well to it. Out of over 20 children in the last 2 years who have trialled it we have know of only one who had no positive benefit... and that was the one who was definitely an ADHD child.
Further information on the Failsafe Diet can be found here. You can feel free to email me directly too if you have any other questions.
Our attitude towards trying the diet is simple. What have you got to loose? No drugs, just diet. Keep your daughter on Ritalin and see if you spot an improvement. If she is going to respond she will respond within 7 - 10 days. Once you have a response then see your doctor about modifying her prescription and lowering the amount of Ritalin or cutting it out completely. But definitely see your doctor, I'm not one so it's not my place to say "Take your kid off the drugs"... if only it was that simple.
When it comes to kids with issues like this as parents I firmly believe it is our responsibility to do whatever WE can to ensure they get every chance to develop as individuals. It shits me to tears watching parents ignore kids that have obvious problem because "Its too hard and I couldn't be bothered". Nothin
Some friends of mine have a son who's been diagnosed with having ADD. The only deficit I see is in the amount of attention they give him.
When I'm there, they'd try to keep him locked in another room (using a barrier across the doorway) with his toys and only give him any attention when they feel the need to shout at him.
When he is let out, the #1 thing he wants is to hug his parents, sit on their lap and be held by them. But they continually push him off.
Perhaps if they could be intimate with their son, he wouldn't feel the need to do stuff to get thier attention. I doubt chemicals or any form of psychotherapy (unless it's the parents that undertake it) will make any difference there. I just wish I could get them to read some of Steve Bidulph's books.
To know that you know what you know, and that you do not know what you do not know, that is true wisdom. --Scooby Doo
Actually Tourette's Syndrome, doesn't usually manifest itself like everyone thinks it does. I knew a girl in High School whose Tourette's just caused her eye brows to go up when she blinked when she was nervous. So Tourette's can come in very mild forms.
Pretty widgets? What pretty widgets?
With the amount of people out there doping up to try and avoid every sign of being human, I would definitely consider a second or even third opinion on the ADD diagnosis. I seriously hope that there has been more than one opinion. I can't say because I don't know your situation.
If my folks would have taken me to a doctor as a kid because I spaced out on the gym floor, I would surely have been diagnosed with ADD. But the real truth is that I wasn't a jock.
Going back to my first statement (about people doping up for everything under the sun), think about it:
1. I've got a few age lines in my face. Solution? Inject toxin just under the skin to make it swell and fill in the wrinkles for a few months!
2. I've got reflux (probably the fallout of too many antibiotics and a bad yeast infection in the digestive tract) disorder. Solution? Get the purple pill that costs an arm and a leg and I will have to stay on for life lest my symptoms get worse.
3. I'm going bald. (Hey... we all get old eventually) Solution? There's just too many to go into, but I'll point out that the list of side effect for Propecia is mind boggling. Especially the one that says to not even TOUCH Propecia if you are pregnant!
I'm not denying that there ARE people with problems out there. I'm not even saying that this guy's kid may not have problems. But let's step back a bit. Back to the time when kids were allowed to be kids. When they didn't have to "perform" in a certain way by a certain age lest they be considered "freaks". Hell... most of us were considered "freaks" but I think we fared pretty well over our lifetimes. Haven't we? The first thing I would say is that this child may just normally be less social and more introverted. Is that REALLY a problem? Do we REALLY need to drug people who just don't get on well with other people?
The other thing is the expectation people place on their kids these days. And the ridiculous level of activity kids are expected to be involved in. (Baseball, Soccer, Football every F*cking day?!! WTF?!) Kids should be allowed to do things like sit in the backyard baking mud pies or making snowmen. They should be allowed to make "chemistry sets" with water, food coloring and old bottles. They should be free to dig holes in the ground in hopes that they will reach whatever it is they believe to be on the other side. But most of all they should be allowed to dream. Because those dreams will take them farther than any drugs they are getting pumped into them.
Un-news
she could not have adhd, which i personally don't think is a disease. she could on the other hand have autism or at least one form of it
i say this because there's an autistic child in my house and he grunts and groans, much like an animal.
the one thing common with autistic children is communication problems, hence why a lot are wrongly diagnosed with adhd. which isn't the doctor's fault, it's guess work and they try not to put forth the best case instead of the worse case
now most people think that autism is a bad thing, sorry but the movie rainman isn't a great portrayl. every case of autism is different and some people who have it are very highly functional, the boy in my house is on the extreme end of the spectrum and needs constant care (tolieting, feeding and such) and is almost animalistic in some repects to property and ownership of his stuff
my personal feeling is you should take her to a couple doctors that are well informed, especially ones that are good with all types of mental disorders, talk to you're local mental health group or autism society and have them refer you to a good doctor that could really help instead of issuing drugs for a questionable disorder that's not really treatable.
other thing i can think of is get her off the drugs and put her into something like karate or kung fu or have her play video games and such
Comment removed based on user account deletion
There do not seem to be many answers to the question listed in the post. Could it possibly be that the people answering are suffering from the very affliction the article's subject is meant to assuage?
Emedia
Schedule II (look at Methylphenidate and Coacaine)
Wellness resources.
Problems with ritalin
Tragek
Mod parent funny, please.
Feeding speed to our kids isn't the solution to this so called 'disorder'.
All kids have short attention spans, with some kids maybe worse then others. Just like that episode of southpark where Mr Macky performs an ADHD 'test'. He reads The Great Gatsby to the kids in one sitting, then asks them a question about it, of course they'd all fallen asleep by then, so they were all diagnosed as having ADHD.
IMHO Any kind of cognative therapy is better then drugs.
You tried your best, & you failed miserably,
The lesson is:
Never Try
I couldn't think of a more precise and direct analogy to A Clockwork Orange than using Ritalin to treat ADHD. It gets results - I know this from my own dramatic transformation for the very brief period I was used it. I know that parents are very often at their wits ends dealing with children that are totally uncontrollable, unable to socialize, and unable to learn in schools. I empathize with that and only wish that they would NOT consider Ritalin the "solution".
Use Ritalin as a reprieve, perhaps, or use it as a middle ground to something else. But please, do NOT discover Ritalin and think that the problem is gone. It DOES get results, it DOES have a drastic affect on the behavior of a child, and it does indeed take away a crucial part of that child's free will and individuality.
I was raised on something called the Feingold Diet which is these days dismissed as nonsense with little or no benefit. I was on that program for nearly 10 years, from ages 5 to about 15 (though it was hard to tell at the end, being that the program consisted of gradually returning to a normal diet - at ages 13 to 15 I only had to avoid super sugary junk food.) It wasn't a miracle cure like ample amounts of prescription stimulants, and I still suffered from feeling like a backseat driver in my own body at times, but I was able to cope decently with a normal public school system and have become a well adjusted adult. I think that the biggest benefit may have been the comfort it brought my parents to have a program that had SOME effect and didn't involve the highly potent drug Ritalin.
I grew up around kids that had serious ADHD and were on Ritalin - it scared the bejeezus out of me. If I split from the diet, I would have an understandable burst of hyperactivity which was more difficult for me to deal with than normal kids. If the Ritalin users skipped their dose, they were maniacs. By highschool, they were crushing them up, snorting them, and passing out. In the aftermath, they were usually unable to form a sentence without interrupting themselves. I had learned to COPE with my situation and understand that if I get little hyperactive, I'd be an obnoxious overbearing ass. These other kids were just appalling to me.
All of this has been anecdotal. I'm sure the Feingold Diet has failed for tons of people and I'm not arguing with its current status as a sham. I'm sure there are tons of people (besides doctors who profit luxuriously) who benefit from Ritalin. I know that the parents who give Ritalin to their children do so out of love. If you think there's an ounce of truth in anything I've said, I hope you will look past Ritalin and have the love to try something else.
You must be new here. This is Slashdot, where nobody reads the story before they post, because everyone has ADHD....
Shiny.
Make it go. How does it go?
Is this story why the quote at the bottom of my screen says:
"QOTD: "Don't let your mind wander -- it's too little to be let out alone."?
You insensitive clods.
http://jesus.everdense.com/
Seriously, there are way to many responses about drugs. The thing that helped me the most is understanding how my body and mind work. Yoga is probably the easiest way to do that, you get tons of feedback from your body. I can notice any changes in my breathing, muscle tension, posture, and thought patterns. You could do just meditation which would help with ADD since you learn to quiet your mind, but yoga has the added benefits of being able to quiet your body. I would STRONGLY SUGGEST this to ANYONE with ANXIETY PROBLEMS. Seriously, people who are anxious tense up and breath differently. Once you can spot that and loosen up the correct muscles then bye bye anxiety. Oh, and diet. Can't forget diet. Remember you are what you eat and in our societies we're mostly garbage. Remember, your body was developed over thousands of years to run on certain types of fuels, it did not evolve to run on hydrogenated oils, pesticide/herbicide residues and mcdonalds!
Now, I've since been looking into neural feedback as a potential treatment - more from the geek-side of things though, than as a patient. (I'm looking at building a home-made EEG-like device with input to my computer via either a serial or parrallel device.)
I'm sure that you're aware of all the technical information on EEG's and biofeedback, but for the benefit of the other readers:
A typical electroencephalogram (EEG) is where the electrical activity in your brain is recorded over generally a 1.5 to 2 hour session. During the test, the brain can be applied with different stimuli to see how the brainwaves react. Uses for this include detection of epilepsy, and determination of clinical brain death.
Neurofeedback is an extension of typical brainwave monitoring wherein the brainwaves are represented to the patient in a way that facilitates learning how to control them, i.e via a game of some description. Current methods include controlling the doppler effect on a virtual pool, or cloud generation/manipulation.
The brainwaves are approximately:
People with ADHD can exhibit brainwaves that have an unproportionally high period of time spent in the Theta state - essentially daydreaming. So if the patient is taught how to modify his brainwaves to between mid-Alpha and mid-Beta, then a lot of the symptoms can be reduced.
For instance, with the doppler effect method, more ripples could indicate a more higher-cycle brainwaves, and can thus be observed and trained.
There is also strong clinical evidence that shows that neurofeedback is an effective tool for people with ADHD, with a lot less of the harmful side-affects of the drugs, such as Ritalin.
For me personally, I had an EEG performed when I was 12 for suspected epilepsy. An EEG is non-invasive, and non-painful. No icky injections, nothing that felt really weird. Particularly for children this can be a very important point.
I would recommend following this path highly, as it shows a lot of promise, and there is little to show it being harmful in any way.
I wish you, your daughter and your entire family the best through this, and I think that you'll be very happy with the results you'll find.
Just FYI, I'm still on Ritalin, but I do intend to go down the path of neurofeedback, but I'd rather do it via my home-made one. I'm a geek, after all.
There is already a zillion comments, and I have bad Karma, so most likely, nobody will see this, but I do have one idea you may want to look into. A friend of mine adopted a mentally retarded girl. (Fetal Alcohal Syndrome, sad story). She was having a terrible time in school, and the school insisted that the girl be put on medication, so that, even if she couldn't learn, at least she wouldn't be a bother. Contacting DCFS and having the kid taken away was what the school threatened doing. So, (and I don't know why) my friend taught her daughter sign language. She started an after school club where a bunch of girls get together, and do sign language performances of songs. It turned around several lives. Nobody is exactly sure why it works, but for some reason, mixing language, movement, rhythm, music, and such together into one performace has helped several of the kids function. My friends daughter went from "she may never be able to walk properly" to riding a bicycle. She is doing quite well in her studies. (Not quite top of her class, but for a kid with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, it's damned impressive!)
I would reccomend trying something similar with your kid. It may not work, as everybody's brain is a bit different, but I have seen sign language song to *wonders* for several kids now. I haven't seen any literature on the subject, or anything else, and as far as I know, my friend invented it as a therapy.
I know, I have bad karma, so some of you mods (if anybody even reads this) will probably assume I'm full of crap. I swear, I only have bad Karma because of a single "I welcome our XXX overlords" joke. So far, it just happens, that's the only comment of mine that has been moderated!
Both myself and my S.O. have been diagnosted with ADHD and find that the "your just":
...
A. Undiciplined
B. Lazy
C. Just different
D. All of the above
(take your pick) explination really fustrating. You really don't know what it's like until you've been in our headspace.
Now as for medication. I agree in a perfect world being intellegent and ADHD would be great. We could be the thinkers, excentric scientists and artists. Unfortunately we live in a world that demands that we "stay focused" and have great "organizational skills", so the practical considerations must be taken into account.
That being said I belive there is an over diagnosis in children (hey kids are a real PITA and can be hard to manage) and an under diagnosis in adults. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 31 since I have found many ways to cope and be successful.
Oh look something shiny
(couldn't resist that one)
Think about this:
What do processed foods generally contain a lot of? Sugar/Corn Syrup and simple carbohydrates. Many children (and adults) are hyper simply because they have a sugar buzz. A natural diet has more complex carbohydrates and protein, preventing the "energy roller coaster" associated with consuming large quantities of sugar and simple carbohydrates.
Well, I would not go as far as you have gone. Thinking back on my school days, I would have probably been dianosed with this, even though I have always had an increadably long attention span (although not in school).
Personally, I have had rather narrow and deep interests in parts of science and math, and absolutely no interest in most of my k-12 education. I suspect that had I gone on retalin, it wouldn't have made a difference.
Quite frankly, before any of my kids goes on any long term drug, especially the popular ones, I want several opinons, not just one. I would also like to see the long term trials that have been done as well.
nt
A friend of mine has suggested I look into the work of Dr.Michael Persinger at Laurentian University, and Todd Murphy. Some of the machines Murphy sells (cheap, he's obviously not trying to become a millionaire off this stuff) might be useful in home treatments, especially if you can get a neuropsychologist to help you determine a protocol. (with standard disclaimers: IANAD, neuro-scientist/psychologist. Nor am I associated with Laurentian University, Persinger or Murphy)
Information: "I want to be anthropomorphized"
I'm sick of these morons that think this is a diese. It's nothing. It's an exuse, if anything.
Parents who don't know how to teach their kids control call the doctor and they tell them they have ADHD to make them feel better.
It's nothing and I'm sick of hearing about it.
It is facinating reading all of the different theories revolving around the two camps. ADD/ADHD IS real and ADD/ADHD IS NOT real. The is not real have "helpful" ideas such as: Turn off the TV. Kids will be kids, let them be. It causes Tourettes, addiction, panic attacks, dumb children, more idiots, drug society. The hardest falsehood to overcome is the one that is only partially or potential true. For example, Tourettes syndrome can be aggrevated by Ritalin. However there are children taking it to alleviate the symptoms of the syndrome. The other concerns are all possible, but not ALWAYS a problem. Many people who say it does not exist do not have it themselves, and do not know someone suffering from the affliction. I was totally anti-drug, anti-ritalin before I met my wife. She was diagnosed while before we were married. I was against her taking Ritalin (she was still in college). She, fortunately, disagreed. Her school performance inproved dramatically as did some associated conditions such as depression and anxiety (depression because she was failing and anxiety because she could not change it no matter what she did or how she studied). She is not addicted, in fact hasn't taken it for quite a number of years. She developed some coping skills that were as important as the ritalin. As with most medicine, it works for some people, dramatically. For some it works without major side-effects. For others who have this affliction, let us hope there is an alternative. For those that don't have this affliction, let's hope they or there parents have a clue and not medicate something that is normal. However, to say it doesn't exist is mere elitism from those that are not afflicted. Something along the lines of a white person living in a majority white country saying there is no racism simply because they don't experience it.
It is dangerous to be right on a subject on which the established authorities are wrong. - Voltaire
... then you must be sick. Now, come on! Isn't this like a Brave New World? Taking drugs to coerce your brain into a social standard; this is sick. Thinking about it I might have an attention deficit syndrome; actually I'm pretty shure I DO have it. Does it interfere with my karma? When I was a kid I could read Homer all day long, or loop some symphony the whole damn day. Nobody ever diagnosed me some mental condition because I couldn't suffer stiffingly boring tripe for 45 mins. I AM myself, I'm not nuts, I'm sometimes surprised and cherish the mental associations that emerge from my stream. It's my beautiful brain working hard to factor, correlate and structure the stuff I throw at it. I've fallen in love with signal theory but with little reward because the prof. couln't really care less and just expected the students to memorize and cheat at the exam. My mind isn't passive but preempts (how many times have we undersood the point the lecturer was pointing at long before he made it?); I really hate people that can't follow (or even get once explained) my exuberancy and label me a 'nutty nerd'. Am I incapable of accomplishments? No. I did really cool stuff, sweated really hard and hit the bull's eye, often by challenging the trodden path, contemplation and final solution. That are my little neourons let loose, hounding elegance, simplicity, poetry... I'm proud of my bloody attention deficit, it's my intellect crying for more, more, MORE! If people can't keep up with me, it's their problem... not mine...
Mi domando chi à il mandante di tutte le cazzate che faccio - Altan
Gramps knew best. Anytime one of the younguns acted up and didn't wanna listen right, a trip down to the poplar tree to select a proper switch was the treatment. The sensation of a fresh branch striking a bare bottom always worked wonders. This sure got ones "attention".
..at least in the hallucinations it gave me. I am marked as a very strong ADHD patient and started taking riddlin when I was about 13. It helped me focus, it helped me think, but it slowed it down to a tremendous degree. People are so overjoyed that it calms people and helps themm focus that they forget that we do not have very many long-term documentation cases to support any long term side effects.
After quitting riddlin completely because I could not stand how it slowed my studies, my thoughts, and my speech, I began to recall all these events of times when I had done something rash. Killing someone during Ninjutsu practice. Beating my litle brother into a pulp. It never occured to me before to ask myself, but that's because of simply a side effect that I can not explain. No this isn't a medically correct reply. No this isn't a happy one, as I am ashamed to say I had such horrible halucinations. But we need to consider that people respond differently, very differently, and while many stories of it helping kids calm down exist... there are also an equal amount of stories where the potiential of that child is hindered.
-awaits the flames-
Didn't they just release a new drug that had the benefits of Ritalin but wasn't a stimulant?
Cruising the internet on my TI-99/4A @ a whopping 300 baud!
Here's a clue... :D
Laugh. It's funny.
Why don't you try some old fashioned parenting instead of looking for quick fixes?
In all likelihood there is nothing at all 'wrong' with your daughter. If she's having problems focusing in school, try a change of environment. Consider homeschooling, or a Sudbury school (Link 1) (Link 2).
Some kids may be able to sit still for hours in an uncomfortable wooden chair, ingesting mostly-useless information from a chalkboard and asking permission to use a bathroom. Others can't, and should not be placed in such a miserable environment.
doo dee doo
My son is also ADHD and we had him try bio feedback for a year. He is attention deficit and not hyperactive. We stopped the bio feedback because after a year we had seen absolutely no change. However, our best friends son is also ADHD, and also not hyperactive, and he has been using bio feedback for about a year and a half with some good results. My suspicion is that the difference may be mostly how hard the person tries at it. The rub here is, of course, that staying focused and "on task" is exactly what ADHD kids have a problem with. We did get results by switching him to Adderall XR. If you haven't, you may want to try out a few different medicines with your kid and see which ones she responds to. It's worth a try. The down side of trying is that she may not be treated for a week or two, if one meds fails, and the up side is that you find a medicine that works much better. Keep her on the bio feedback, it can't harm and it may do some good. Give her every chance there is! Don't forget to take care of your self too. I used to think I was a patient person until I had an ADHD kid. Now I know that I'll never have enough. Best of luck to you!!!
The teachers and parent volunteers can see it. The kid with can concentrate, can connect with the other kids, and the whole class doesn't become dealing with that one kid.
In a class with an untreated kid isn't a learning environment for anybody, it's daycare. You wanna throw around bromides about over drugging kids for being kids? Great, you go. Know what? People abuse the medical system all the time. But for kids who REALLY have the symtoms of ADD or ADHD, pharmacology works.
BTW, if Rational Recovery has worked for you, that's excellent. When I look over their website, I see zealotry written all over it. So, anyone who investigates making use of it should mentally prepare themselves for a hard sell.
Luke, help me take this mask off
...I've been on it for around 3 years now and I have nothing but praise for it. Other Anti-depressants had awful effects on my, but effexor kept me happy, with the added benefit of a nice little high, a bit like taking ecstasy, but not as intense...keeps me buzzzing most of the day nicely. :o) One thing though, if you ever come off do it very slowly as the headshocks and vomiting suck big-time. If you don't know what a headshock is, miss a few doses and then shake your head, or move your eyes from side to side. It's like little electric shocks all over your brain, not fun.
I have a list for adults with ADHD (AADD @ yahoogroups) that any polite adult with ADHD is allowed to join (newbies are moderated until they've shown they won't try to enlarge our penises).
We do have one specialist on board who has ADHD herself and is quite knowledgable about treatments. You're apt to get much more helpful advice than querying /. where so many people have obvious impulse control disorders...
Bioneurofeedback has been helpful for many people and several of them are on my list. Meds just don't work for everyone, and I'm one of those people. I hope to try feedback some time in the future.
Only bullshitters and people without a clue will use this absolutely vague and useless word. And you, my dim witted ADHD friend, have won the magic prize.
10 lashes from a switch out of a tree in Gramp's backyard for you, young man.
A couple of years ago, I was diagnosed with depression. Believe me, it wasn't a hard diagnosis. I was looking for that "final exit".
Along with meds and therapy, I hit the gym and the weights. Each rep with the weights brought me one step closer to a clear head. Even got rid of my familial tremor (shaky hands) which the docs wanted to treat with more meds.
Make sure to see a nutritionist and get her enrolled in some physical activities.
Don't overlook the benefits of medications, but if she is still a child and about to go through puberty (or going through it) you may want to think twice about brain altering drugs (including ritalin).
well, i have seen ridlin is a good drug. just break it up into powder, and snort it. it is fun. and all the cool people are doing it.
The last four months of my life have been, literally, a living hell. Panic attacks to the point of screaming and shaking in fear, tranquilizers by the tubfull. Welcome to the world of [what was diagnosed as] Generalized Anxiety Disorder and it's fun big brother, Acute Panic Disorder.
The reason I mention them is because they have many of the same physical symptoms as ADHD: Trouble sleeping, racing thoughts, inability to focus, irritability/easy to upset, etc.
It was only when that connection was made, in the last week or so, that I appear to be finding my way out of it...
You see, I had what most people would call ADHD when I was a kid. Pretty much every symptom, which are pretty much the same symptoms as anxiety disorder and panic disorder in adults, I had.
Then, it being the 70s in England and Ritalin not being as popular, my mother looked around for other remedies and found the reports on Yellow 5 allergies. She took me off Yellow 5 (tartrazine) and I started to chill out. The scientists may be divided on whether it's a factor but the emprical evidence suggests it was for me at least.
It's only been in the last week or so that we put two and two together. I was ordered off caffeine the moment I got ill. I swapped to Minute Maid lemonade from diet Coke. The stuff is full of Yellow 5 - the problems snowballed.
Since Sunday I've been off anything with Yellow 5 (or Blue 1). What do you know? The physical symptoms are getting better by the day.
The point of all of this is that Yellow 5 and ADHD may or may not be related, who cares. What does seem to be the case though is that a Yellow 5 allergy can manifest with the same symptoms as ADHD or Anxiety Disorder.
All the tranquilizers in the world, SSRIs, you name it, weren't going to help when I had the equivalent of someone slipping me speed or an acid tab in every can of soda. Ditching the soda (and other things that have Yellow 5) has already had a profound affect in, what, 72 hours?
My advice would be - try cutting out Yellow 5. It might not make a difference but it will only take two weeks to find out so it doesn't really cost you anything much and you can try it in conjunction with her other treatments. But can you really afford not to try it? Imagine if the ADHD was a misdiagnosis and you'd put her through all the Ritalin and everything else when just changing out the lemonade and Sunny Delight she drinks could cure it?
Yeah, it's an unproven theory at the moment (then again, people once argued smoking wasn't bad for you too). But it risks nothing to try it and there's one person who'll serve as empirical evidence right here.
I would take issue with those who deny the existence of ADD and ADHD, primarily because there are distinct physiological signals that can be observed among the attention deficit crowd. Some of the distinguishing characteristics found in the EEGs of attention deficit individuals include increased activity within the theta band (4-7 Hz) and decreased activity within the beta band (12 Hz and up, ignoring the 'SMR' band), as well as lower peak amplitudes in each band, when compared with those of persons considered 'normal' or 'non-ADD/ADHD.' For more information on this, consult any of Shouse and Lubar's groundbreaking papers from the late 1970s on attention deficit disorders.
That said, the use of biofeedback systems in the treatment of ADD/ADHD has precious little documentation to back up some of the miraculous claims made by device manufacturers, many of whom seem rather reluctant to provide hard physical data to back up their claims. Though I can anecdotally state that I have had success with my own system (using custom software and an 8-channel wireless device called the BioRadio), an important detail is that biofeedback is not, and never will be, an overnight miracle cure. It is a long, arduous, time-consuming and often frustrating process with incremental gains. Though having tried methylphenidate (Ritalin) and dexedrine (Dextrostat) throughout my high school and college years, I much prefer the non-pharmaceutical options. I have yet to try treatment with Strattera, mainly because my insurance company is giving me the shaft, but am interested in the prospect of a non-stimulant ADD medication. I've got bad memories of schoolmates stealing my dexedrine so they could do bumps of it in the bathroom.
Another avenue to investigate, which has also yielded tremendous results in my own case (possibly moreso than the biofeedback), is yoga. The breathing techniques and methods of focus taught in yoga, not to mention the relaxation involved, doesn't eliminate the natural state of the ADD/ADHD brain, but does provide the practitioner with objective analysis of his or her own ability to concentrate, and in the words of 80s cartoon icon G.I. Joe, "knowing is half the battle."
I went from a c average to an a average. My doctor took me off of ritalin in my 2nd half of my fresman and first half of sophomore, and my grades went to crap--put me on another drug. I went to another doctor to be put back on ritalin, and my grades started to get better again. I went from being told that I should not even consider math or sciences by my high-school councelor to having a masters in computer science.
i am so very tired....
i hope you're browsing at -1 or at least 0. not wasting time creating an account.
i have add and went to a psychologist to help me with it. he started out by doing test (took about 4 hours) and said i was borderline. he asked if i wanted to use medicine or feedback. i told him i really didn't want to be on medicines. he told me the medicine is more like a crutch that helps you as you take the medicine, as soon as you stop the problem is still there. feedback takes a lot longer to see results but would be a perm change.
they will start out by hooking a ton of things up to your head and have you do a few different tasks (i can't remember what all they were) like he would call out numbers and you would keep adding the last two he had said or reading a section of a book. this established a baseline for where the brainwaves were.
next you started the actual feedback. he hooked up a few things to my head and then we sat in front of a computer. we started out working with a screen of a clock. when the waves were where they were supposed to be, the clock would move forward. at first this seemed random to me. after some time you start to "feel" different when the clock is moving forward and you'll eventually learn to get that feeling. over time he could add other things to the screen like the levels of the waves and also could make the clock go backwards if the levels weren't in the right range. i can't remember which waves, but i think it is beta2 that is high in people with add, so i always trying to get it down to a certain range. this of course is interesting for maybe a visit or two, and thankfully they have a ton of screens. after you kind of got an idea of how to control the waves, he had a ton of screens to choose from. there were different kinds... some were almost like screensaves and you would try to get them to progress, some where games like mazes, i remember doing one a lot that was a 3d of being in a spaceship flying through rings and you controlled the ship actually moving.
i asked him during the treatment (which i did for about a year and half by the way) how well this worked for kids (i was about 21 or 22 at the time). he said he generally setup some kind of reward system for them - like if at the end of the hour session if they could get the clock to move forward so far in a minute they could get a peice of candy. he also setup long term rewards with their parents agreeing to buy them gameboys, video games, etc. as they made long term progress. and by the way you don't go in for the hour and just stare at the screen, i'm trying to remember as its been at least a year since i went, but i think it was generally between a minute to about 3 minutes at the very most that you did one screen. then he would pull up data from that time and you would analyze how things went. he'd always ask me how it went, how did it feel, etc. he would ask about specific parts and how i felt at those times. these were very hard questions because i had no idea to explain the feelings in my head. he bugged me after every time though because he said actually trying to verbalize the feelings reinforces you understanding how they feel.
i went about 2 or 3 times a week at the beginning. it got down to once a week. one thing to do is make sure your insurance will pay for this treatment, as it can get expensive if you pay out of pocket. if you do pay out of pocket there are alternatives, my dr had a take home machine, which was really just an old 486 in a big box that you hooked up to a monitor and speakers and then you turned dos on and it loaded a program that different things like the clock. i tried it once and didn't like it. i didn't like it because i was so used to the original thing, and with the dos version instead of playing music when you were getting it to move forward it had a certain tone it played... i just found it annoying, but i didn't try it until months after i started. you worked on that machine and brought in the data from it to talk to the dr about your progress. personally i wouldn'
I'm most fond of the hunter VS gatherer school of thought regarding ADHD.
It most certainly *is real*- but I don't call it a disorder.
It's just how I am- and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Yeah it kinda sux having a giant-ass list of unfinished projects, but such is life.
OTOH it's really nice being creative enough to never be "bored".
Whatever powers made me, made me this way- on the fringe.
And it's only those on the fringe that can push it farther.
Have you been placed there?
Don't medicate yourself.
Don't bring yourself back to the masses.
Push it- you were put there for a reason.
I browse at +5 Flamebait- moderation for all or moderation for none.
ADD/ADHD are diagnostic "Disorders", that are only "Disorders" because the condition they describe is disruptive to the order of classrooms and other tightly structured working conditions. A more apt title would be Attention Divergent Condition, or Attention Divergent Hyperactive Condition. They are slightly different conditions.
The thinking mechanism in use in people who are ADC/ADHC is actualy extreamly good in dealing with seaminly chaotic situations. On the other hand it finds regular, predictable behaviour and tasks boring.
I am willing to bet that adults who were diagnosed as ADD/ADHD as children, remember with great joy learning all kinds of things Outside of the classrom. Whether it was computer/console games, summer camp, exploring on their own, reading some novel, or other activity that was fascinating in one way or another, you probably had very little problem "learning" if it wasn't in the form of learn these dates for history, this multiplication table, or write the word you misspelled 20 times in the correct spelling. In fact later on you probably found words that you wrote the 20 times in the correct spelling, harder to remember to spell correctly, than words that you realized later on you would need to communicate in other fields that you didn't discuss in grade school.
At least that's been my experience.
It's a condition, not a disorder. Other people have a condition that makes it easy for them to learn in the highly structured environment the US calls a public school system. Strangly they seem to fall appart when things get chaotic.
-Rusty
You never know...
I was put on neural feedback therapy for the purpose of controlling my "overactive imagination" as it was diagnosed - really just chronic daydreaming and distraction. I doubt it did anything at all, as there was nothing in my course of therapy about how to APPLY any of the control I supposedly learned.
I cannot help but to wonder if all it did was add to my antisocial behavior.
This isn't something new.
Unfortunately I can't provide any citations from memory but my girlfriend is doing her Honours year thesis on "The interaction between EEG and ERP wave patterns in ADHD children on and off stimulant medication" and I have read first-hand a couple of papers on biofeedback being used as treatment.
Try searching journal databases like Ovid, ScienceDirect, etc and you should find that a variety of studies have been done on this topic already. From memory, it seems to be reasonablly effective for a number of disorders.
I pasted a few abstracts below. The first is a neuroimaging study that shows anatomical differences between ADHD and normal patients. The second describes a genetic mechanism form ADHD. The third is another neuroimaging study. It shows that different areas of ADHD patients brains light up compared to normal patients when asked to perform a task that requires attention. You could do a lit search on Pub Med to find more:
Am J Psychiatry. 1994 Dec;151(12):1791-6.
Quantitative morphology of the caudate nucleus in attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.
Castellanos FX, Giedd JN, Eckburg P, Marsh WL, Vaituzis AC, Kaysen D, Hamburger SD, Rapoport JL.
Child Psychiatry Branch, NIMH, Bethesda, MD 20892.
OBJECTIVE: Because the caudate nuclei receive inputs from cortical regions implicated in executive functioning and attentional tasks, caudate and total brain volumes were examined in boys with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and normal comparison subjects. To gain developmental perspective, a wide age range was sampled for both groups. METHOD: The brains of 50 male ADHD patients (aged 6-19) and 48 matched comparison subjects were scanned by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). Volumetric measures of the head and body of the caudate nucleus were obtained from T1-weighted coronal images. Interrater reliabilities (intraclass correlations) were 0.89 or greater. RESULTS: The normal pattern of slight but significantly greater right caudate volume across all ages was not seen in ADHD. Mean right caudate volume was slightly but significantly smaller in the ADHD patients than in the comparison subjects, while there was no significant difference for the left. Together these facts accounted for the highly significant lack of normal asymmetry in caudate volume in the ADHD boys. Total brain volume was 5% smaller in the ADHD boys, and this was not accounted for by age, height, weight, or IQ. Smaller brain volume in ADHD did not account for the caudate volume or symmetry differences. For the normal boys, caudate volume decreased substantially (13%) and significantly with age, while in ADHD there was no age-related change. CONCLUSIONS: Along with previous MRI findings of low volumes in corpus callosum regions, these results support developmental abnormalities of frontal-striatal circuits in ADHD.
Biol Psychiatry. 1999 Nov 1;46(9):1234-42
Attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) as a noradrenergic disorder.
Biederman J, Spencer T.
Pediatric Psychopharmacology Unit, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston 02114, USA.
This review revisits the thesis that a dysregulation of the central noradrenergic networks may underlie the pathophysiology of ADHD. We review the pertinent neurobiological and pharmacological literature on ADHD. The noradrenergic system has been intimately associated with the modulation of higher cortical functions including attention, alertness, vigilance and executive function. Noradrenergic activation is known to profoundly affect the performance of attention, especially the maintenance of arousal, a cognitive function known to be deficient in ADHD. Data from family, adoption, twin, and segregation analysis strongly support a genetic hypothesis for this disorder. Although molecular genetic studies of ADHD are relatively new and far from definitive, several replicated reports have found associations between ADHD with DAT and D4 receptor genes. Brain imaging studies fit well with the idea that dysfunction in fronto-subcortical pathways occurs in ADHD with its underlying dysregulation of noradrenergic function. A wealth of pharmacological data (within and without the stimulant literature) provides strong evidence for selective clinical activity in ADHD for drugs with noradrenergic and dopaminergic pharmacological profiles. Available research provides compelling theoretic, basic biologic and clinical support for the notion that ADHD is a brain disorder of likely genetic etiology with etiologic and pathophysiologic heterogeneity. Neurobio
1 - Ritalin is not the only medication out there for treating ADD. Before you go investing money into electronic snake-oil, why don't you just try working with your child's doctor on finding a better medication? If you really want to spend a lot of money finding a good solution with the help of computers, check out the Amen clinic at http://www.amenclinic.com/ac/default.asp.
2 - ADD is a complex neurological disorder. It doesn't just involve concentration. It doesn't just come and go. There is no quick fix. No book, no therapy, no medication, nothing will just fix it. It's there, and it can be managed, but it takes a lot of time and effort. Keep that in mind when looking for ways to "cure" your child's ADD.
3 - If you want good help with a medical problem, don't ask a bunch of random internet posters-especially the Slashdot crowd. Most of the people you get responses from will be wack-jobs ranting about the evil doctors turning them into robots with addictive medications when they were in high school. If you really want to learn about successful ADD treatments, go to some of the national/international ADD conferences and ask around.
For Jebus sake!! We are talking about giving children *speed*. No, this is not an exageration. Our society would love to treat everything with pill, drugs, and chemicals. This isn't what MOTHERS decided they should help children with, but what COMPANIES have decided would help children.
Please consider where these ideas come from, like ADHD. Who is to gain with stomach staples, ritalin, adkins, and whatever else the latest health trend is..
> I have ADD and went from being last in my class in High School and failing out of college to graduating with Honors and going on to graduate school at the finest university in the country, after being prescribed Ritalin.
So let me ask- were you in fact *learning* the material, even though you weren't getting good grades?
I browse at +5 Flamebait- moderation for all or moderation for none.
but, i call Total Fiction on the feingold diet. When I was young, i--in retrospect--obviously suffered from severe adhd. It took till senior year in high school for my doctors to recognize it. My parents tried the feingold diet, and all it did was make me suffer for not being normal like other kids. Not only did I not behave properly in class, but now, I can't have capri suns, or gummy snacks, etc. talk about ABSOLUTELY NO FSCKIN BENIFIT for such tremendous trade-offs. It wasn't until i got on ritalin in college that my grades ever improved, and when my 'educated' doctor took me off of ritalin my grades tanked again. fortunately, i went to a new doctor who prescribed ritalin again, and my grades went back up. I also know that out of 5 of my ADHD friends, only 2 respond to stimulant therapy, so perhaps Feingold may work for some, but it was sheer torture for me as a kid. A total waste of time.
i am so very tired....
My was diagnosed with Tourette's syndrome quite a few years ago with very similar symptoms described above. She recently started seeing a neurologist and it turns out she didn't have Tourette's at all! She was diagnosed with Neuropathy which is basically the overfiring of the nerves. The neurologist has her on Neurontin now which is a safe, non-addictive drug that can be taken in very large doses if neccessary (it usually isn't neccessary) and is completely safe! Check it out!
ikeya
---- Move SIG...For great justice!
2) Evaluate your daughter's teachers. I have a background in education thanks primarily to my mother being a Title I reading teacher. She brings her work home with her and the whole family is greatly involved in it much of the time. I've also worked for 3 educational institutions, mainly as an IT guy but also as a aide. I can think of numerous teachers that have neither the training nor the patience to work with a ADHD child. Simply put, if my child was diagnosed with ADHD and happened to be in one of their classrooms, I'd have them moved to another teachers room. Failing that I'd pull them from my local school district and drive them to a school district that has staff capable of effectively teaching an ADHD child. You should determine if your daughter's teachers can cope with her disorder. Would the school put her into special ed (very bad idea)? Does the school have any past experience with ADHD children? Is your daughter's class size small enough to get an adequate amount of attention from the teacher or her aides? Does the school have any special programs for students of such disorders than can offer the individualized attention she needs without the negative treatment of being placed in special ed?
You have a long road ahead of you. The good news is you are not alone. The Internet is filled with information about ADHD, the possible treatments, support groups, and much more. Consider looking into the services of institutions that specialize in child care such as Shriners. You may not need their financial assistence but you're sure to benefit from their knowledge. Best of luck to you and your family.
I am considered ADD. I am an adult who has lived with it his whole life and have learned to adapt my habits and behavior.
I have never been on Ritalin. I did however find a couple of alternatives that helped me focus. I started drinking coffee in college. Almost never drank it in the morning, usually drank it in the late afternoon or evening. Something else I found that helps me is a dark chocolate bar. Not the milk chocolate, that just winds me up and makes me crave more after my insulin levels spike.
If you don't want to try Ritalin, try some caffeine to see if it makes a difference. A dark chocolate bar or cup of tea might have enough to make a difference for your situation.
It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. -Frederick Douglass
KYLE'S MOTHER: Then we'll have to resort to plan B and call the v-chip organization.
Dramatic MUSIC STING. Mackey looks afraid.
MR. MACKEY Mrs. Brovlofski, the V-chip hasn't been fully tested yet, it could be dangerous.
KYLE'S MOTHER (Evil) I don't care if it's dangerous! Desperate times call for desperate measures, Mr. Mackey. Perhaps I need to remind you of your situation.
MR. MACKEY (Nervous) Alright, I'll make the call...
KYLE'S MOTHER As our next official order of business here at M.A.C., we will test the new V-chip. As most of you know, the V-chip was created to lock children out of watching certain shows on television. And now the N.I.H. has created a new, exciting product that they can tell us all about. Here is the Surgeon General, Dr. Pangloss.
DOCTOR PANGLOSS, a lab technician in white takes the podium.
DOCTOR PANGLOSS Thank you, parents. One person claps. Pangloss hits a button and a slide projector starts showing pictures of the device.
DOCTOR PANGLOSS The machinery of the new 'V-chip' is very simple, and similar to that of the V- chip. The chip is placed just under the subject's skin, where it emits a small but painful shock of electricity whenever an obscenity is uttered.
The parents are fascinated.
STAN'S FATHER Now wait a minute, are you telling us that this chip somehow KNOWS if the kid is swearing?
The parents AD LIB 'Ooohs' and 'Ahhhhs'
DOCTOR PANGLOSS We are very excited to see the results of this test. (Calling) Patient 453, would you step out here, please?
Cartman steps out wearing a hospital gown.
DOCTOR PANGLOSS Patient 453 here has been fitted with the new v-chip...
CARTMAN My head hurts.
DOCTOR PANGLOSS Don't worry about that. Now, I want you to say 'Doggy.'
CARTMAN Doggy.
DOCTOR PANGLOSS Notice that nothing happens. (To Cartman) Now say 'Montana.'
CARTMAN Montana.
DOCTOR PANGLOSS Good. Now 'Pillow'.
CARTMAN Pillow
DOCTOR PANGLOSS Alright, now I want you to say 'horsefucker.'
Cartman looks offstage to his mother.
CARTMAN'S MOTHER Go ahead, it's alright, Eric.
Cartman smiles.
CARTMAN Horsefuck-BZZZZZAAAAT!!!!
CARTMAN AGAAHGAHGAH!!!!!
Cartman falls to the floor in pain. All the parents ooh and ahh and applaud.
CARTMAN OW!! That HURT GOD DAMMI-BAZAAATTT!!
CARTMAN OW!! YOU CAN'T DO THIS TO ME!! THIS ISN'T FAIR!!! YOU SONS A BITCHE--BAZAAATTT!!
DOCTOR PANGLOSS Success!!
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
If you don't follow the rules, you don't act interested in the class, and you don't conform. Its official, you have the disease ADD. When you become a successful adult who runs Apple, you no longer have ADD, you now have creative geek syndrome.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
A lot of discussion on this thread has centered around the question of medicating people diagnosed with ADD/ADHD. Although a lot of people seem to think this is a black/white issue, I think that the success (or lack thereof) of mediciation for ADD/ADHD is _highly_ dependant on the individual in question and the circumstances specific to the case at hand. I'll give some examples to show what I mean:
1.) My best friend in high school had _really_ bad ADHD. He was never a great student, but he managed to get by with help from ritalin. However, sometime halfway through sophomore year, his prescription was changed from ritalin to adderal. He became a _completely_ different person - I almost couldn't recognized him. He withdrew from almost all social contact (he went from the class clown who wanted everyone's attention to a kid that walked around school all day long with headphones on to ignore the entire world). He also started doing REALLY poorly in school and became deeply depressed. As a result, he began smoking pot nearly compulsively. Now, I don't really have any problem with pot, as I like me some marijuana myself, but he became one of those people who "needs" to smoke before doing anything. Of course, I'm not claiming that the adderal was the direct cause of any of these things that I've mentioned, but it should probably be noted that this was really the only "variable" in his life that changed before his transition.
2.) My girlfriend of 4+ years has _really_ bad ADHD as well. When she is not on medication it is really difficult for her to accomplish even the simplest of tasks (not even including school related work). She has been on a bunch of different drugs, all with varying degress of success. However, all of them have _definitely_ helped her, and she has never exhibited any of the negative side-effects that I mentioned earlier. She now takes Concerta (and her perscribed dosage is so large that I don't think it is publically available yet - she is a test case I believe... 72mg for all those interested). With Concerta she has gone from barely staying in college, to being a stellar student and getting a lot of other extracurriculars (tutoring, mentoring, volunteering, etc) accomplished, all of which were tasks next to impossible for her to carry out when she wasn't taking medication for her ADHD.
3.) My roommate at a top-5 college has ADHD and a learning disability and he's one of the smartest people I've ever met in my life. Interestingly, he excels at math, but has difficulty with English/language related assignments. For example, I have to proofread nearly everything that he writes, because his writing is absolutely atrocious. He cannot spell and his grammar is just awful. If you read one of his papers unaltered, withing knowing who wrote it, you'd probably think it was a middle-school student. Similarly, he absolutely cannot do foreign languages. He just doesn't "get" them.... But give him a math problem and he can do it right off the top of his head. He describes it as just being able to visualize it and "see" the answer. Anyway, he has been prescribed various mediciations, but none of them have helped him with his language-related problems. On the other hand, he also hasn't had any negative side-effects. Again, some of these problems could be attributed to his learning disability, but in his case, I think it is good to note that medication didn't have any effect (positive or negative) on him.
So there you have my limited experience with ADHD and medication (I've got other friends with ADHD, but I highlighted these 3 cases since they each show a different outcome). So as I said, I think it is evident that the success (or lack thereof) of medication for ADHD is highly dependant on the subject. For my best friend, the effect was quite negative, for my girlfriend it has been overly positive, and for my roommate it has been non-existant. With this in mind, it is of course your own personal decision, but I wouldn't immediately discount drugs, as they can surely help in some circumstances.
I was diagnosed bipolar in college and it sucked really badly for five or six years. I started "neurofeedback" and did it once a week for a year. In parallel, I was doing some work with my emotions (becoming more comfortable expressing them physically, rather than just talking about them or "acknowledging" them), and reconciling with an old girlfriend. All three helped a lot and I'm not sure to what balance, but I am certain that the neurofeedback helped. I had the worst "alpha readings" they had ever seen, and my symptoms were that I pretty much had an inability to focus because I was always too hypervigilant about everything. Like I'd be in a meeting and thinking so hard about paying attention that I couldn't pay attention. Anyway, one feeling in particular that neurofeedback taught me was kind of like when a body muscle unclenches that you didn't know was clenched: Ahh. Except for me it was a physical sensation in my brain. It's like any sort of dexterity, you learn it the first time and then it's easy afterward and you can do it by yourself, without being hooked up to the neurofeedback stuff.
I did it for a year. I slowly ramped off the bipolar meds after that. I've been off the meds for five years or so, and I definitely consider myself cured, to the point that I rarely admit I used to be bipolar, because people never understand. There are doctors out there with fear tactics that would try to convince me that I'll kindle or relapse any day now, but they're full of crap. I personally believe I have an emotion-based understanding of all the symptoms I experienced while bipolar, which changes the nature of the understandings into normal feelings. (Basically the problem isn't so much the emotions one feels, but how one judges against them.)
There isn't much clinical data supporting or disproving neurofeedback. But, every doctor I talked to before starting simply thought it would be a harmless waste of time, NOT an obstacle to other treatment. So to me this was a reason to go ahead and try it out. It helped. I was bipolar, now I'm not. What can I say.
Sorry for the AC, I'm sure you understand.
Your child's diet is undoubtedly deficient. Give her a big B vitamin supplement and start her on calcium/magnesium supplements. You'll notice a strong effect within an hour and should be able to take her off all drugs within 3 weeks. Meanwhile do some reading on nutrition.
<RANT>
Most parents believe the above advice is incredible and that a child gets all the nutrients they need from the meager, lousy diets typical today. Therefore the parents do nothing, or worse, invest money and time in ridiculous therapies that have never worked and never will. People apparently feel free to ruin their children, the excuse being that they are their children - as if children were a possession like cattle.
</RANT>
There! Now I've done my part, even though I don't believe that you will do yours.
Apparently I used to do shit that I don't even remember- things like refusing to sit in my chair- and wanting to stand up :P
:)
No meds for me thankfully- I'm sure I made the learning environment a little worse (if more interesting) for those other kids- but I liked school, I of course learned the stuff I was interested in, but got horrible *horrible* grades, and was suspended upwards of 20 times, but I loved every minute of it.
Do I feel disadvantaged today?
I don't think so- I was born and raised in Silicon Valley, have been breathing the Internet since 1994, and bought a house downtown at age 23.
I've got a lot of unfinished projects, but the beats and caffeine keep me sane
I browse at +5 Flamebait- moderation for all or moderation for none.
Whether you want to classify ADD/ADHD as a disease or not does not address the issue at hand. Many people have this problem. For some, medication helps. For others, it does not, or can do harm.
I myself was diagnosed as a child with ADD. For a while, I took medication. However, I have been off the medication for many years now, learning how to cope with this problem in my own ways.
When I was young, I was asked to try something called biofeedback. It is the closest thing to what the original post described that we had back in the late 80s. However, instead of wearing sensors on your head and monitoring brain waves, you wore two sensors on your fingers. These, from what I recall, monitored electrical impluses passing through your body. A noise was generated, based on the level of this noise. The idea was that by concentrating, you could slow the impulses, thereby slowing the noise, until it finally stopped. Rather than "messing with your brain" it simply provided a measurement for relaxation. By learning to stop the sound, you taught yourself how to relax. Eventually, this would teach you how to do it on your own, with out feedback. One of my problems as a child was stressing over timed tests. This was an attempt to teach me how to relax in such situations.
I'm not sure how helpful this was for me, or how helpful this new technique is. However, don't be so quick to judge such methods. They may be a helpful tool to allow people to deal with their problems.
To all of you out there who have this, or know someone who does, I hope you find something that helps you. As someone who had/has this problem, I sympathize. Best of luck to you all.
We bought a book called, "Winning the Food Fight". It's by a chiropractor who went back to school for nutrition because she was tired of seeing kids with a Big Gulp in one hand, and Ritalin in the other.
I've read references to other studies that state sugar, preservatives, colours, etc can have a negative impact on a childs behaviour.
Westerners get fatter, their kids get more hyper, and we just want drugs and other quick fixes.
Ritalin stunts growth in children, look it up.
that looks to be taken out of context a bit. read the parent
i think it's a *joke*
#1 - Lack of dicipline.
Thats right. I grew up with several friends with ADD/ADHD, and met more in college. Problems at home ranging from inattentive parents and single parents to ones who believed that little sally or sam needed to think about their problem in the corner for five minutes of 'time-out'.
After this time-out, of course, they were allowed to do whatever they wanted. Many of these friends had a license to be a dick. As soon as anything happened it didn't matter whose fault it, because the kid with the disorder was the victim.
Kids don't really want to pay attention in school, they want to eat play-doh, play outside, or get some play. Without any discipline they will do what they want to do more. Concentration is learned, and isn't a fun thing to learn. This is exacerbated by the fact that teachers cannot discipline children in any manner without fearing for loss of job and perhaps legal action. Even bringing up the issue with parents can be worrisome.
#2 - Lack of structure.
This ties in somewhat to #1. In college I met very bright individuals. One of them was there on a merit scholorship and got nothing but A's in high school. This person excelled in music, and everything they put their mind to. After the first year of school and very poor grades she went to a doctor and was diagnosed with ADHD. She went on ritalin and a myriad of other drugs and became a different person. A complete nervous wreck all the time. She flunked out of almost all classes.
Now many people might say well she was drinking and doing the college thing! Grades will go down obviously, right? What happened is she came from a very structured old-fashioned asian family who directed her in every way. She had always done well because she had structure. As soon as this was gone there was no way to focus. I'm talking about the inability to focus oneself willfully. The problem here was oversheltering parents. She should have learned at a much younger age how to become self-motivated and focus when the stress is high and there is a lot going on. You have to be able to make those choices yourself, and make the wrong ones at times to learn and grow.
Both of these causes reqiure getting your ass in gear. Either via someone kicking your ass, or by you picking yourself up off your ass, and ceasing to be, well, an ass. I'm not advocating violence, but drugging so-called disorders like these bring up more problems (such as drug addictions and repressing the initial problem).
#3 - Neurological Disorder
While most diagnosed cases fall into the aforementioned categories, I do concede there are legit causes of ADD/ADHD. This is most likely caused by problems during birth such as toxins introduced to the fetus (smoke, prescription and non-prescription drugs), or genetic defects by mutation, heredity. While a low percentage of cases truly fall in this category, I believe that almost none require drug treatment. There are many non-placating/mood-altering alternatives that benefit the overall body-health of a person than the commercially available and state-foisted choices currently offered en-masse.
We live in a very drug-centric society where a person sees more drug advertisements for depression in a day than there were depressed people during the depression. We want quick solutions for complex problems, problems that people used to have to just deal with. These days, no one wants to deal with your problems. It costs too much and takes too much time to figure out whats really wrong with you. In a time where time reigns supreme, with fast food, faster cars, and lightning fast downloads, a quick cheap but temporary and damaging patch-up is preferred to the real cure.
While there may be some people who need/prefer the drugs, and thus maybe it is in thier best interest, I really have to back the no drug group.
My younger sister (like all of my siblings) went to a private Catholic school. She did okay, and so they really didn't suspect ADHD. In middle school, they started to get suspicious, becuase her grades in class were really high, but her test scores were aweful. I'll admit she had a lot of HW, due to not being able to finish in class, and it took her a long time to do it, but she was a B student. Then they asked my parents have her tested for a learning diability. Besides Dislexia they found ADHD. My sister spend two or three years in tutoring at a center where they taught her ways to learn, memorize, and concentrate. For high school she switched to a public school, and is going to graduate this spring with very high honors. She needs less time on average to do assignments etc. One of the keys to her sucess was she took algebra in eight grade. Then her standardized test scores were below 50th percentile, so according to state law she had to take remedial math. They really boosted her self esteam and had a lot to do with her doing better. I won't say all ADHD people she be taken off drugs, but I will tell you many are better off without them.
Consider omega-3 oils as a restoritive strategy for your child. The problem of omega-3 (heavy chain) malnutrition is huge. Barry Sears (Zone diet) has a lot of claims for his oil and ADHD. The Zone diet worked great for me. So did upping
my omega-3 intake. Its relatively cheap and no side effects that I know of except better attention.
Maybe, but it goes to state of mind.
It also doesn't change the fact he would rather drug his child than take care of her.
The clothes thing was a joke. Laugh.
And even if it wasn't, $400 is not a lot to spend on clothing for 2 adults and 3 kids. One of which has feet which don't fit comfortably in any but reasonably expensive shoes. (take note - take care of your kids feet when they're young. $100 is nothing to spend on shoes if it saves a heap of problems later!!!)
None of which adds up to me not taking care of my kids. I don't see how you can gather enough evidence one way or another from anything i've ever posted to slashdot, even if you take it grossly out of context.
I don't know if you have kids or not, but it is so hard to see them having a hard time with day to day things (eg getting dressed in the morning), and being completely at a loss as to what to do about it. I've already answered on another post about why I asked the slashdot community. This isn't a substitution for professional advice, it's an addition to it.
Diabetes is treated with medication. Epilepsy is treated with medication (some of which has side effects far nastier than Ritalin). Various other psychological diseases are treated with medication. People are irrationally touchy about ADHD though.
Hope I didn't just feed the trolls!!!
Hook her up with this and let slashdot moderate her.
I agree that I definitely like being on medication during school hours. I DID NOT like ritalin at all though. This made me concentrate a lot better, but made me feel dull and emotionless. For the last 5 years I have been taking adderall. I really love this drug. I take it when I go to school or when I have to study and I can actually concentrate. Along with concentrating I still come up with brilliant ideas. I don't think you can really make a judgement on helpful drugs if you haven't tried adderall.
http://www.familyhopecenter.org/
If you are looking to get your kid off of toxic chemicals, and into a therapy program that will address the root cause of the problem, then RUN, do not walk, to these people. The root of the problem is that some area of the brain is insufficiently organized. They will design a therapy program that will organize it.
People with ADD/ADHD often have vivid and interesting thoughts, and explosive energy. Perhaps instead of heffing her up on goofballs and trying to control those thoughts and energy, give her outputs for her thoughts and energy. Consider getting her:
-A pad of paper (with a durable stainless cover and pen(cil) holder) to write out-of-nowhere ideas down, or just to draw/scribble in.
-A painting eisel, pottery wheel, or something of the likes. Artistry is an excellent output, and some kickass local artworks I've seen have been created by people with ADD/ADHD.
-Consider (Only if you have the money, and feel like taking a risk) A musical instrument. Not like the drums, but more along the lines of a clarinet or trumpet, something that takes a little effort and concentration to learn, but it would require either: A really patient instructor, or: Self-Instruction.
Frink: Nice try floyd, but you were designed for scrubbing, and scrubbing is what you shall do.
Assuming the current process is still the same as when I did it, it boils down to attention being a ratio of beta/theta activity less than one. The goal of the EEG biofeedback was to conscious control over that ratio. I'm not certain, however, that the beta/theta ratio itself is attention; it could be only a symptom of other workings. EEG feedback could be like seeing that trees wiggle when the wind blows and then concluding that wiggling a tree will create the wind.
Ultimately, however, it all depends on the individual's psychology and chemistry -- unlike some other posters, I won't assume my own experiences are going to be exactly what other people will get. Biofeedback may work better in your case. Personally, Adderall works for me.
oh man, i wish i had read the story...so when he says that he's been looking at alternatives to ritalin, he means "i want to drug my child"..and by trying to find something that's helps her, he's really trying to "not" take care of her.
got it..thanks for clearing it up.
I believe I would have been diagnosed with ADD or ADHD or something similar long ago if I grew up in an environment that even thought of checking people for that. Everyone always told my mother I am hyperactive, I need to quiet down, I drive them nuts, I do not pay attention, etc.
... check your childs DIET! I realized long ago that what I eat and drink affects my ability to concentrate immensely. As such I have deliberatly started to limit or irradicate some foods from my diet. I never drink coffee, soda, tea, or anything with large amounts of sugar/caffein. I make sure I eat FRESH fruit, drink only 100% fruit juices with no artifical sweetners, and definitely drink a lot of water. The typical stuff. But lately, due to my wife being allergic to milk etc, I have recognized something new that works VERY WELL! I have discovered "Eat Right For Your Type". Just search for it on google. I think the author of the book has a website at http://dadamo.com. After we started to eat according to the dietry descriptions in the book "Eat Right for Your Type", I can concentrate better, I get sick less, I feel more energized, and I have less allergies. The book basically describes the differences between people of different blood types, and what foods act as medicine, and which act as poison to your body. I am a type O, as such I eat lost of meats etc. My wife is a type A, as such she is a vegetarian. Just do yourself a favor, go to the good will store and buy one of these books (if you can find it).
... even if I tell no-one about them. I listen to radio while working, watch TV over a book while reading, make food while working on a laptop ... just doing many things at once.
.. each in their own right. I have had teachers like that ... and I have taught a few classed to large classes myself. In my mind AD(H)D is mostly a problem with teachers. I know I am blaming someone ... but really ... I have a few friends who have received letters from their school in which the teacher says that their child does not sit still. WHICH CHILD SITS STILL? I would expect my children to not sit still.
... this is getting to much for me to organize in this itsy bitsy slashdot edit window ... and I am too lazy to copy it out to edit.
... pay attention to your childs diet. It is immensely important. NO JUNK FOOD WHATSOEVER. Junk food includes little lunch packs you but at the local grocer too. When you have that under control try to work with your child to help them cope with doing many things at once so they do not get bored. Do not try to get them to concetrate on one thing at a time. Put all of their home work in front of them and let them work on it however they want ... 2 minutes here, 6 there. It worked for me. It may not work for you child ... but as long as you pay attention to his/her diet I am happy.
First - DIET:
My recommendation to you
Second - LIFE:
What I found was that I was able to live with the way I am, and live with really well. Instead of trying to concentrate on ONE thing like everyone wants you to do I have adjusted myself to concentrating on no less than 2 things at a time. At work now, I make sure that my managers or co-workers know that I work that way and that I am NOT a single task person. Give me a bunch of tasks (at least 3) and give me deadlines that are tight on all of them. Do not expect me to get them done in sequence, and do not expect me to make more progress with one than the other. I switch between them every 20 to 40 minutes. I walk around a lot and always think about ways to do thing better
What people around me have realized: I am very good at what I do. They can trust me to work on more than once things at a time. I had the hardest time to convince the brain-dead teachers that this is the way I worked. I REALLY have issues with teachers that expect children to just sit still and pay attention. That in my mind is not a good teacher. I good teacher should be able manage 20 to 30 children
Well
What I am saying is
Life's like that
First about ADD. I may have had something like it as a child. According to my parents, I was very agitated and hard to control. They weaned me from nearly all sugar and most caffeine. No sweets, no pop. They said it made a world of difference.
My more recent experience with neural training has been due to some medical problems I've had for a little over two years. Within two days, I went from about 7.5 hours of sleep a night to 4 hours of sleep and a completely messed up digestive system. I also had chronic fatigue. It took over 6 months and visits to a naturopath to identify that any milk product was the cause (and strawberries as well, it later turned out). Having cut those out, my digestion and sleep have significantly improved, though I still can't get more than 6 hours of sleep, and my gut is still sensitive.
While I no longer get the frequent headaches I used to get for the first year, I still have problems focusing on a problem for long durations. I have been doing neural training for a few months, and it does seem to help my concentration and my nervous system. It's not a huge difference but every little bit helps.
Oh, and stimulants aren't really an option for me. My system has always been pretty sensitive to caffeine and it seems it's even more sensitive to other stimulants. The few stimulants I was prescribed and tried were great, but they kept me awake for 21+ hours. Oops.
Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
Read his first /. submission. The one that takes pains to point out the IQ of a 6 year old.
She isn't being allowed to be a child, she appears to be a status symbol that damn well better not shame her parents.
I have been diagnosed with ADD and personally I don't like the medication form of treatment, i basicaly don't like popping a pill everyday. since I was first diagnosed i have been off of the medication for a few years now although I don't make the honor roll as often(Albert Einstien flunked math in grade school) I have an even bigger wanting to learn more about computers, and concepts invovled with engineering, particularly physics. after looking back this is something that I never really had until i stoped taking the medication and come to think of it i like the status quo. so my advice is let your child grow out of it, or learn to live with it. you may find out that your child will want to learn
Rather than medicating her, why not provide her with methods by which she can develop her ability to focus? I was angry at my parents for giving me ritalin. I wish they had simply directed me toward The Experience of Insight, by Joeseph Goldstien.
The Dhammapada is also a good book for an unfocused mind.
Let her find her own path. You just hold the light.
I was under the impression that these kids were just spoiled and needed a good a-whipping when they acted like that. I think the whole thing is a crock and was just made up as an excuse by some parent who was irresponsible with their child. Kids don't naturally pay attention. Especially these days where there are so many distractions. I know...blah blah that's not all that its about. Well, guess what? You can curb this kind of behavior as a parent and it starts in the home. Teach them the difference between right and wrong and how to make decisions about how they act around and respect other people. There's a new idea! Ever heard of "Quiet Mouse, Still Mouse"? Damn! Screw my karma.
796F75617265616E65726400
What is your damage? Why are you drugging up your daughter? I have a two year old and would NEVER put her on that Ritalin crap. ADD, ADHD and Ritalin are all trendy things for psychologist these last few years.
I am 31 and have a 2 year old daughter with a son coming in about 2 months. I was told I had ADD and/or ADHD as a child. It is all a load of crap! My parents were smart enough to NOT put me on any medication. Now I have a successful career as a senior programmer making 3x what the average American makes. I am not saying that to brag, just to state that most of those Ritalin pushing psychologists are fools.
I personally do not want to know a young child that is NOT a day-dreamer or a little "spacey" at times. IT IS CALLED HAVING AN IMAGINATION.
Take your little girl OFF of Ritalin. Let her be NORMAL. Most kids out-grow that ADD/ADHD crap. If she is a teen and is still having problems, deal with that psychologically first, drugs should be the LAST damn thing that you, as a father would ever push on your kid[s].
Do you think that "tics, grunting, odd little noises, words and so forth..." are acceptable side effects in a freaking 6 year old little girl?.
Today, at 31, I still have some idiots that try to tell me that I have ADD/ADHD. I can be sitting at my computer programming and someone in the room could be 3 feet away and talking about me loudly and I will NOT hear one work they are saying. I personally consider this CONCENTRATION and not some trendy physiological disorder to be treated with drugs. I actually welcome this behavior and think it has helped me in my career.
Here is something you can try instead of rushing your daughter to all these "experts" and drugging her/putting her through all types of psycho therapy. Sit down with her EVERY NIGHT and work on social skills and concentration skills. Do her homework with her. Maybe, just maybe you have been blessed with a little girl who will be extremely intelligent, though not one of the "trendy, popular" girls at school. Who the hell cares.
Except her, lover her, encourage her, and nourish what unique traits she has instead of trying to fit her into the typical American mold of a young girl.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
I would like to talk about my own story. Sunday is my 18th birthday, and about a year and 3 months ago I was diagnosed with ADD. I used to live in France, where it wasn't recognized, *at all*. Once I was diagnozed and started taking Ritalin, as for many others, my grades went up by an average of 25%. Still, the one thing that is important, and that I would like to point out is this one : even though I have been taking ritalin for over a year, I am not yet dependent. I haven't taken any between Thanksgiving and New Year, and I haven't felt the need for it. The difference Ritalin makes for me, and the reason for which I keep taking it, is that it allows me to choose to focus on what I want, instead of randomly thinking of several things. Mark my words : it allows me to choose. It doesn't force me to focus, and doesn't affect my insights a bit. I am even more creative while taking Ritalin then when not taking it. I think it is because I am a fully grown teenager that understands what the world requires from individuals, that I am able to take advantage of the option offered by the Ritalin. My belief is that you cannot give a drug to a child and just hope he'll calm down, focus and grow into a regular person. It simply won't work. If the child has no motivation, no understanding of what or why he is taking the drug, it could have a reverse effect. Ritalin, and other similar drugs are stimulants, and naturally tend to affect the portions of the brain responsible for ADD or ADHD. But, if the child enjoys his state, it will strengthen the degree of ADD, ADHD and make the kid truly impossible to control. Even today, taking 36mg of Ritalin Concerta a day I can daydream while doing my homework, listening to friends or music. Only before I had the medication, I was hardly aware of drifting off, and couldn't control it when I knew I should have been paying attention. Now, on the other hand, I can focus on what I am doing, allowing a much more structured writing and thinking, among other things. But, when looking at a math problem with the Concerta active, I look out the window, and suddenly here comes the insight I would have had without the drug. Only once I have that insight, I can force myself back into concentration, which would be impossible for me without the medication. I have never tried Neural Feedback, and probably never will. I just don't feel as I need it. My advice is : get in a serious talk with your daughter, very straightforward, and make it as brief as possible, but very clear. If she wants to be able to follow in school, then she has to want it all along, and work on her Neural Feedback exercises to achieve that goal. However, if she doesn't have the desire for it, I think you're just wasting money for the time being, and would be better off waiting a little later in her life when she'll understand the importance of focus, schoolwork and mind self-control better.
---- I am certain of only one thing : I know nothing else.
Comes from our culture and upbringing (or lack thereof). Your TV has images flitting about. Context switches every three seconds at the most... Computers running multiple browser windows --- chatting, googling, playing music, working on that paper.... Not many can do ONE thing for hours on end like the old days. That would take serious retraining.
Unless the patient is bothering others or is dangerous, there's not much to do other than to try to simplify life and get back to the important things like family and the outdoors whenever possible.
I'm not the first to say it, but I can't help but chiming in.
For the love of god, this doesn't need treatment. It may be a little harder on the parents but that doesn't warrant trying to break a child's head. WTF are these parents thinking?
Would these same parents give their flat-chested daughters breast implants, or send their gay sons to military school? It's all the same: trying to force their child to conform.
ADHD and the like often lead to people that are beautifully creative in adulthood. That is, if they aren't programmed to suppress their individuality.
ADHD is another word for you can't handle your kid. When a pinch in the butt is called for, you gave up and gave them Ritalin. Did you at all try to stimulate your child with knowledge/computers/games/etc?
Kids are active, kids get on your nerves. Some kids are hyper-active (me) some are not. Kids destroy things and sometimes they get in the way of your life. So your response is to give them drugs?
Instead of finding a (say discipline) parenting method for you and your child, you copped out by drugging your kid. Now you want to submit the child to neural feedback therapy so your kid gets more insane?
I need to post this to fark.
You sir, are an asshat. You might not want to call yourself a parent.
Enjoy,
It's just the normal noises in here.
I think this hits at the heart of the problem, and the real reason such drugs are being overused nowadays: 5 year olds are supposed to be overactive. From the time they can walk, all non-human mammals are running around, playing/fighting with one-another, etc; this is extremely important, as those that don't get regular exercise and learn precise muscular control will soon become prey.
21st-century humans, however, are being put in school at extremely young ages. When they're supposed to be running around, getting exercise, and having fun, they're forced to sit in classroom and stare at a book. Naturally, the teacher can't do her job when the kids won't sit still, so the school will pressure the parents into giving these drugs to their kids.
Damn right 5-year-olds get distracted, and why shouldn't they?
I made a PHP/MySQL library that prevents SQL injection & makes coding easier!
I am taking it. It is way better than anything out there, plus non of the odd side effects.
David Vasta iSeries(AS/400) Admin & Junkie
It seems to me that a lot of the parents who believe their kids "have" ADD/ADHD are the same parents who think video games are making their children into violent killers.
I think a lot of these parents don't pay enough attention to their kids, and they'll do anything to make sure that they don't have to.
Albuquerque PC
*sigh*
i still dont believe they are giving hard drugs to kids like that. I have been an experimental drug user for years and ive done LOTS of types of drugs. Ritilin is speed. I have also heard this expressed as ritilin is speed after puberty hits. sadly, most people dont take their kids off of it in highschool.
YES it will get you better grades. YES it will help you focus. But i have seen people that have been on perscription ritilin for 10+years and they have some very weird issues. It makes you just as sketchy as any amphetamine, and the long term effects are down right scary. Everything from facial ticks to hyper sensitivity to constant feelings of restlessness - ive seen them all. Not to mention that the people who I know who were on perscription ritilin are VERY much more likely to drift into every other sort of chemical drug.
Chemicals are the worst way to get high and the only reason that they are considered "safe" for longterm use is that the pharmasutical industry has beat the government into submision. Its scary when i watch american TV and every 3rd ad is an ad for a drug that promises a "brave new world" of feeling good and "correct" all the time. this is the root issue. Back in the day(tm) people ACCEPTED that they were different from one another. Depression, lack of focus, listlessness and an excess of energy were just normal traits. I do not for a second buy the line that doctors just didnt know how to diagnoise and treat these things before and thats why we are only seeing them now.
To deny people to feel depressed or anxious or restless is to DENY YOURSELF HUMANITY. These unfavourable societial attitudes should be treated with societal treaments. Kids too hyper? maybe you should stop letting the blipvert TV entertain them and do some parenting.
Its so sad that what was considered a personal quirk or mannerism 100 years ago is now a disease that you have to pay 500$ a month to cure. Of course these diseases will never be cured: because they are not diseases but things that make people different from eachother.
EROWID - a solid link (and general site) on drugs.
"to search for a key is to admit that you are in prison"
-mens room wall. sushi restaraunt.
"'His intellectual eminence carries with it corresponding moral responsibilities. The greater a man's talents, the greater his power to lead astray. It is better that one should suffer than that many should be corrupted.... Murder kills only the individual-and, after all, what is an individual?' With a sweeping gesture he indicated the rows of microscopes, the test-tubes, the incubators. 'We can make a new one with the greatest ease-as many as we like. Unorthodoxy threatens more than the life of a mere individual; it strikes at Society itself.'"
-Huxley Brave New World ch.10
I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
I was diagnosed with ADD when I was in elementary school. I tried chemical regimens (Ritalin) but gave it up when I was in Junior High because I didn't believe it was actually helping me.
About that time, my parents heard about a clinic in our city (Denver) doing neural feedback therapy for ADD, so they signed me up.
The drill went something like this: I would take the bus across town to the offices of the clinic. There, they would put a hair-net with a built-in series of electrodes onto my head and squirt a cold, goopy saline-type gel into each of them to enhance conductivity between my skin and the electrode. This was then hooked up to a desktop computer, which would output the signals from the electrodes in a variety of different colored graphs -- line graphs, bar charts, and I think there was a pie chart. Then I had to stare at the screen and try to control the graph.
The one I remember most clearly is the line chart. It had different colored lines scrolling across the screen for the different types of brain wave (alpha, beta, gamma, delta) and I had to keep one type down (that was alpha, I think) and another up (that was beta -- I don't recall what gamma is, but delta waves are most common when you're asleep). And that's what I would do. For an hour.
It was the single most boring thing I have ever done in my entire life. I could indeed see that I was sometimes able to exert some limited control over the relative strengths of my brainwaves, as shown on the graph, but it was intermittent at best. The whole thing bored me out of my skull. Not to mention I had to wash the electro-goop out of my hair every time I went. Blech. In retrospect, I have to wonder -- if the object is to teach someone to concentrate, then why on earth did they design such a dull program? I can think of few things more dull than staring at a graph for an hour at a time. It's like they went out of their way to pick the most boring thing they could think of. And they expect adolescent patients to actually learn mental discipline from this?
The very best part was when they let me play Commander Keen at the end of sessions where I'd done well. I bet you if they had designed the brainwave-monitoring program as a game, I would have been interested enough to actually work at it. Slashot had an article about a biofeedback game last fall -- I can't find the Slashdot article, but the game is called The Wild Divine. You hook up some biofeedback finger rings to your person computer and use them to control the game. I haven't tried it, and there's a lot of New-Age-ish claptrap about "soul-awareness" and "finding inner peace through the game", but the basic principle seems to be the same as that employed by the therapists I saw.
We gave up the therapy after a short while, mostly because our finances took a turn for the worse and we could no longer afford it.
Now. As to results: I didn't notice any particular benefit from the therapy I took. However, there are a number of things which suggest that my experience is not reliable. 1) I was only at it for a short time -- a couple of months, I think. If I had worked longer, I might have progressed far enough to get some benefit out of it. 2) Their equipment and techniques were primitive. I bet their techniques (and their technology) have improved a LOT. I recall seeing a story on Slashdot a while ago about a place in Boulder, Colorado, that made a therapy game controlled by biofeedback -- you had to "lift a feather" on the screen, which sounds a lot more interesting than staring at spikes on a line graph.
I gave up both medication and therapy after seventh grade. I had a rough time in 8th and 9th grades, but by the time I got to 10th grade I had learned to focus when I needed to, and to control my physical symptoms (which are, in many ways, similar to your daughter's -- strange vocalizations and a tendency to twitch a lot).
I hit college away from home and the smoke and I felt as if I was completely disoriented and unable to concentrate on anything
:)
I really hope there's far more than you're saying in your post that makes you think you had/have ADHD. What you described is just about every single college kid's experience.
Of course, many of them use drugs to help cope with the situation, too
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
2) It has a genetic component. It's trackable in the genome. Hey, it even shows up on a PET scan, for those of you non-believers. "It's just something they're making up" does not show up on a PET scan.
3) ADHD can be easily overdiagnosed. I tend not to trust diagnoses made without the use of a CPT (Continuous Performance Test) or a TOVA (Test Of Variables of Attention). These are real performance tests, not answering some questions.
4) I know a guy who did some large project on the way to his Ph.D. in psychology on using biofeedback for ADHD. He had ADHD and the subject was of interest to him. Basically, he found that people with ADHD couldn't maintain the focus to make biofeedback work. Biofeedback can be very useful, but, to use a loose analogy, in this instance it is like having someone try to build up their biceps through weightlifting if they are paralyzed from the neck down.
i'm in grad school now, and i've noticed problems focusing, especially on things that make you think, ie, complicated math/physics structures, even long complicated sentences, etc. i have an appointment lined up with a psychologist in a few weeks to screen for ADD.
but your story seems kind of similar to mine, at least up until you were diagnosed.
If it isn't messing with your life, then it isn't really a mental disorder. If that is the case, then you were one of the many people who were misdiagnosed and medically treated for a condition you never had. In this case, medication for you was bad. As you said, you just think differently.
But that doesn't mean that EVERYONE diagnosed with the disorder are misdiagnosed. There are people who truely have it, and it really messes with their lives. I have seen a family member have drastic improvements in interpersonal relationships and study abilities due to proper medical treatment.
So don't go saying that nobody should seek treatment because you didn't really need it. There are people who need it, and it can help them a great deal.
DMAE (2-dimethylaminoethanol), under the trade name Deanol, was used to treat children with hyperactivity or "minimal brain dysfunction" back in the 60's and 70's. (ADD wasn't a recognized syndrome until the 80's, and "minimal brain dysfunction" was one of the descriptions they used to describe similar symptoms before then.) There were a couple of clinical studies showing it to be effective.
It was pulled from the market in 1983, but it's now available over the counter as a "dietary supplement". Among other uses, some people find it useful for improving concentration, short-term memory, etc... oddly, a lot of the same things folks with ADD take stimulant medications for. Hmm...
Anyway, it's not well-studied, but it's certainly cheap and easy to give it a try. ($10 for two months' supply, over the counter instead of Schedule II.) I switched from Concerta (time-release methylphenidate, same stuff as Ritalin) a couple of weeks ago, and so far I've found it to be as effective and with fewer side effects. Might be worth a try if you're looking for an alternative to stimulants.
20% of the world doesn't have it; the number is far less than that.
:P
That is the one true problem with our current situation; way to many people are being labled hyperactive with Attention Defficit Disorder who really aren't.
This is why you hear about people who are better off without the medication; they dont really have the disorder to begin with! If you truely have the disorder, the meds can really help. I have a family member that they have helped. But if you are one of the many mis-labled then obviously the drugs won't help you much.
It really is frustrating to me to hear people say 'Don't take the meds! They don't help!' when the meds really do help people with the disorder. I know they are honestly relaying their experience, but what they really need to be warning you about is 'Make sure you really have the disorder.' If you REALLY have it, take the meds. It makes a big difference in your life.
Y'all are a bunch of pussies. Show me a two year old who isn't hyper. IT'S NORMAL. Kids are supposed to be hyper - nothing wrong with that. School is boring for everyone, not just your child whom you think is special.
And for those of you who feel misunderstoond, cry me a fucking river. Everyone is misunderstood. Try being gay or bisexual. The jokes and comments from your coworkers who "have no idea" are enough to make you think there's something wrong with you. You can't take a little pill for that, although most people here probably think it's a matter of "willpower".
I'm glad you people weren't my parents, although my own parents didn't like non-heterosexuals, which is why they don't know my little secret =)
I think I had a few too many beers tonight.
Believe it or not, food can be the root of all evil.
... so, most Americans are pesticidal shit.
What you feed your child is *everything*.
Like most Americans, if you don't feed your kid mostly if not all Organic and raw foods... then your kid can easily pick up some fucked up disease or disorder.
Most Americans are too busy with their daily work life and social activities to realize how many fucked up pesticides and hormones they are dosing themselves with on a daily basis.
My friend, who is a parent of two young girls, switched her children to a raw/organic (vegan) diet, and the childrens behaviour and mental clarity did a U-Turn.
"You are what you Eat"
Sorry for the blunt-ness... but I'm just trying to speak the truth.
Your kids don't need more drugs to *fix* the problem.
Wish you the best.
I think you people need to work in a day care for a week. It might change your mind from thinking that hyperactivity is abnormal.
Ahh well, pump them full of drugs! It's for their own good! Drown out any shred of their personality that might surface. The world has too many creative types anyway.
I would like to echo the previous suggestion about Strattera... My 6yr old is on it... and has had dramatic improvement in school... and I'm on it myself, with same improvement (not in school though!). It's not a stimulant, so the side effects that the others have (Ritalin, Dexadrin, etc..all speed basicly) should not occur. Another perk with it is... a doctor can give out samples... which they could not do with stimulants.
OMG... I have a sig?
This is most likely caused by problems during birth such as toxins introduced to the fetus (smoke, prescription and non-prescription drugs), or genetic defects by mutation, heredity.
I read what you wrote, and dug a lot of it, but you didn't even mention diet. And for that, you lose some credibility in my book.
I wish I had mod points now.
My situation isn't much different. I was diagnosed with ADHD at 5 years old, prescriped ritalin. and then diagnosed with Tourette's. Ritalin, being a tricyclic amphetamine (as opposed to a methamphetamine like adderal) aggrivates Tourette's.
I was also diagnosed with dyslexia, and these three disorders are very commmonly together.
I'm now 27 and for the most part have grown out of it, but have self-medicated (not even consciously at first) with caffeine. I still feel like I can't focus and have never been able to have a job where I have to get at work at a specific time(I need up to a half-hour of leeway...and I'm pretty sure that's about as good as its going to get.). I'm considering seeking a specialist again and seeing what can be done for me.
I can say that pills aren't very effective in general, especially for kids. I mean who really expects anyone under 14 with ADHD to take a drug daily when that drug makes you more hyperactive when you miss a doseage.
Please keep in my that my ADHD keeps me a little scatter brained and I sometimes can't focus long enough to
"That being said I belive there is an over diagnosis in children"
And this is why, I think, there are so many of the comments you hear... because there are so many 'problem' children who are just labelled as having ADHD to explain disobedience.
My parents were foster parents for many years while I lived with them, and they were often sent the 'problem' children as they were seen to be excellent in handling them. I remember one girl in particular who came to us labelled as having ADHD and a 'handful' and unable to focus or be handled.
Within ONE WEEK my parents had her happily ensconsed reading books, playing with toys etc. for ages at a time with no drugs, no fancy methods... just good old parenting, and a firm hand where required. (I don't mean physically a hand as such, I mean sticking to your ground when you say things like "No, you can't have that" or such things... not giving in to demands etc.)
So very many cases are like this, and it's THOSE cases that cause you the grief... I can't help but have the same feelings about most ADHD diagnosed kids because just so many of them have nothing wrong, it's just a convenient out for parents... which is wrong of me as there are real issues at hand here, but until doctors stop throwing the label about willy nilly, the stigma will remain.
That sounds just like advocates of marijuana! And I agree with it 100%, if you like the way in which a drug alters you who is to say that you can't use it? I just hope you're not another one of those hypocrites who are anti-drug crusaders except when it's precription.
I was on It, I think grade 7 to mid grade 8
I preach that "Think" because I don't remember.
I honestly don't remember much of those years except for lunch time with my friends.
How is that for a "don't do it to your kids".
I'm 20 now; I was around 13 at that time.
I'm a big retard who forgot to log out of Slashdot on Mike's computer! LOOK AT ME.
ADHD does indeed exist and it is indeed a debilitating condition to those whom it affects. Stimulant medication (e.g. Ritalin) is proven to be effective in almost all true cases of ADHD (note the *true*, as many have said, it is an over-diagnosed condition; the reasons for this are varied and are documented in most introductory texts in the education of children with exceptionalities).
If you're looking for behavioural techniques; token economies work well, I utilize a basic token economy in my classroom (aka "points system") and when combined with stimulant medication, I do notice a large difference with my ADHD students in terms of behaviour and time-on-task during seatwork.
As I said, a lot of these behaviour-management techniques, as well as a good background toward the etiology of the disorder, are outlined in most introductory texts dealing with the education of exceptional youth or basic educational psychology.
But Maaa! Everyone else has a
so to conclude, ritalin doesn't replace anything, it tells you to make more and "Speed" usually refers to amphetamines, not just anything that stimulates brain chemicals. Chocolate stimulates brain chemicals, so does acid, pcp and weed. Nobody goes around calling them "speed" do they? Oh, and its not a "lack of" chemicals, just lower than normal levels. I'm not sure what you'd be like w/out seratonin and dopamine.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
ADHD is a diagnosis of a multitasking personality type. In the right environment this is fine. School is a single-tasking environment.
Is this worth giving your daughter stimulants over or spending tons of money on? No.
Trust me, I've been through the whole ADHD thing. As much as medical "experts" with research they can't show peer-reviewed, clinical data on would like you to send them huge sums of money, it's all silly.
Given the rising obesity levels in children, appetite supression isn't that bad.
I notice that Ritalin makes me feel somewhat "empty" even when it kills my appetite, though it's not unlike the way that I feel if I have too much caffeine.
STOP MISUSING APOSTROPHES, YOU MORONS!!!
Note: I am not a doctor!
Please don't take this the wrong way, but have you considered taking her to a shrink? According to mine, Bi-Polar disorder is a 'differential diagnosis' for ADHD. That means that Bi-Polar can look a lot like ADHD.
Also consider that the medication for ADHD can be detrimental to those with Bi-Polar. However, the medication for Bi-Polar, Lithium is less risky.
Moreover, giftedness, is not uncommon amongst Bi-Polar sufferers.
Good Luck!
So let me ask- were you in fact *learning* the material, even though you weren't getting good grades?
It's called "never doing homework". I had that problem too.
STOP MISUSING APOSTROPHES, YOU MORONS!!!
There's a reasonably strong body of literature that suggests that increasing your intake of omega 3 fatty acids (fish oil) and decreasing your intake of omega 6 fatty acids (margarines, oils, junk foods) can aid treatment of ADHD in at least some cases.
Some references:
Deficiency in omega-3 fatty acids tied to ADHD in boys
Increased levels of ethane, a non-invasive marker of n-3 fatty acid oxidation, in breath of children with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.
There are more papers available from PubMed, including one describing a sudy which showed no measurable improvement. Evidence in favour of the general health benefits of a diet high in omega-3 fatty acids is strong, however, so it seems (to me, at least) like a pretty simple and worthwhile thing to try.
Let's review:
... what, all of 20 years ?
- I give my daughter a handful of wacko chemicals I know nothing about (except the things I learned from the glossy brochures), that has been in use for
- now she has language tics and makes strange grunting noises.
Nice work, you fool. Oh, but I bet there are a lot less sticky parenting issues now, right ? Good for you!
I realize this may be modded down, but I feel it is relevant as it is empirical data from which some conclusions or theories may be gleaned. Slashdot is technology; technology is science; science is philosophy; philosophy is machine code.
Ritalin, Prozak, Zoloft, Vicodin... some of the most overprescribed drugs in our society. They work by blocking certain impulses, so you never get used to handling those impulses without the drug. Ritalin is basically a speed drug, but one might say that blocks long term contemplation by its very nature. Further, you become dependent on these drugs.
I don't trust Zoloft/Prozak and other SSRIs after having a few friends off themselves. Suicide happens, especially when people are artificially boosted and then let violently off the chemical hook. Even your own tolerance to the drug can do it to you.
My advice to all is to stay away from these drugs and most illegal drugs, even some of the fun ones.
One link:
_ 3. htm
http://www.mercola.com/2001/jan/14/lendon_smith
Maybe not everything is correct, but if you use the common sense in "drugs are the last option" you will benefit.
Also the common sense dietary changes may make a change - if it flew, walked, swam or grew, you can eat it.
I've got ADD. The genetic kind, not the "ADHD" bullshit that "Psychiatric Therapists" (shrinks) like to throw around to keep you making more appointments.
I got bad grades in grade school. I didn't like homework. I'd lie about it to avoid doing it. I'd tinker with stuff, take it apart and put it back together. Math bored me, 'cause it was just memorization. I had no focus. Now, things are different. Why?
Karate. I've been training for 5 years now. After about my first year, I noticed a sharp improvement. I've got focus. I still get lost when people say more than about 2 sentences without pause, but when I'm working on something, I can stay focused on that.
I've even isolated what part of my training helps me focused the most. The painful part. When we stand in a single stance for 20 or 30 minutes, legs burning and shaking, where you can't do anything but stand still, or worse, keep kicking faster and faster. It hurts like hell. But as you look around, nobody else stops, so you stay in the stance, and you stay focused.
And now, when my dishes need to be washed, or I need to do my homework, or I've got something else unpleasurable to do, I do it. I don't stop 'till I'm done. And it gets done. End of story.
There are a lot of different styles of martial arts, and related physical artforms. I've tried yoga, and its generally pretty fru-fru -- even Bikram yoga, which everybody calls hardcore, is easy. Goju-ryu karate, Brazillian jiu-jitsu, muay thai, and kick your ass. I can't speak for jiu-jitsu or muay thai, but I've seen a handful of 5 year-old study at my dojo, and transform from "ADHD cases," totally undisciplined, bouncing off the wall hyper terrors, to disciplined, focused, well behaved martial artists that do my dojo proud.
I face following problems, I don't know if I am having the same problem as ADD/ADHD. My brain is intutive, I am hyperactive and I look things differently and I behave differently.
Speaking for my loving girlfriend... "I interned with a biofeedback therapist that specialized in the neural feedback training. I worked with children who were diagnosed with everyting from ODD, ADHD, Autism, and many other behavioral problems. In the short time that I was there I saw an amazing improvement in my children with ADHD. The improvement was so drastic that many were taken off ritalin, and only used neural feedback therapy as their only treatment. From my history in Psychology and my background knowledge in Neuroscience, I would hightly recommend you place you daughter in Neural Feedback Therapy. I believe our youth is over-medicated and NFT is going to be our future answer to genetic, neuronal, and behavioral problems. Good Luck!"
You are making some pretty rediculous assumptions. You know next to nothing about me and my family and yet you make these bold statements.
I don't see that I went to pains to point out her IQ. I mentioned it once, and then only with the qualifier that all it really means is that she's better at doing IQ tests than most other kids her age.
As for her being a status symbol, she's the first one to be kicked out of class and the first one to have her parents called at a party or sleepover because of inappropriate behaviour. If anything I'd say sometimes i go a bit overboard in describing the problems she has (she really is a great kid!).
The gist of both of my submissions to slashdot were along the lines of that i'd persued all the usual avenues of help (doctors, books, etc) and that maybe the slashdot community might have some useful first hand information about it. I was looking for responses like 'Your daughter reminds me of me when I was a kid. My parents gave me ritalin and it was the most horrible thing ever. Messed my life up completely. Don't give your kids ritalin ever.' or 'Your daughter reminds me of me when I was a kid. Before Ritalin I felt like my life was a big blur. Now i'm the chief justice of the supreme court'. Well... you get the idea.
Years ago what you are describing was known as biofeedback. There are many books on it and the devices themselves are fairly inexpensive to make or buy. Ther are also many ripoffs charging an arm and a leg. The key is simply an amplifier with a low pass filter you can tune to spfic low frequencies. I don't recall which freq's are used for what, but it is easy enough to find.
Provigil. Trust me. Don't listen to anyone that says otherwise. Seriously.
"Only two things are certain: the fact that I'm dead, and the fact that people will remember me as I truly was, and I'm not sure about the latter." ;)
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
Thankyou very much for your input. Stimulant medication is giving us the best results presently, which is why we've stuck with it but we're giving this neural feedback therapy a go in the hope that medication will not be required anymore. She is in her first session right now!
We're pretty lucky to have access to such facilities here, and the doctor is just fantastic. Even suggesting a few other things to look at like Omega3 deficiencies and 'leaky gut' etc. She seems to take a very holistic approach to this sort of thing, which is a big change compared to the 'I have a hammer so all other problems are nails' approach taken by a lot of medical professionals. So getting access to such therapy is not a problem.
thanks again. It's is truly comforting to know of a success story. I haven't yet heard of anyone who's given it a serious go (eg stuck with it for more than a few sessions) that hasn't had some success... although i haven't read all the comments yet.
ADHD is chemically detectable, so are dyslexia and Tourette's. its very real, its not some sort of state of mind. Its an imbalance of chemicals like dopamine and seratonin
Please keep in my that my ADHD keeps me a little scatter brained and I sometimes can't focus long enough to
Is there any activity your daughter does that gives her focus?
;)
I know for me when I started doing programming that a lot of my attention problems seem to dissapear. In fact in a way that is almost TOO severe. I go from the attention span of a gnat to so focused on the task in front of me that I tune out the rest of the world too easily.
I think the idea of the Neural Therapy sounds VERY interesting, and the possibilities of it helping are immenseful, although I wonder if finding something that brings her focus, which every person with ADD I've ever met has one or two, might not be easier, and cheaper.
From my personal experiences, the drugs hurt more than they help, yeah, it let me sit down in class and pay attention in high school, but I felt empty, like a drone, and my mind slowed. Part of what I love about the way my own brain works is the fact that I easily develop tangents, and find other ways to look at things to make them more interesting. The ideal of using a EEG like machine to produce colored patterns on a screen that can be manipulated with your own mind sounds like an awesome way to train yourself to do almost anything, and a million times better than altering the natural brain chemistry.
RE School: Have you explored the idea of Homeschooling? Just don't forget that social interaction is 50% of the younger schooling ages.
I hope the therapy works out for your daughter, and would be interested in hearing any updates from you about it.
Seeing that they have isolated the brainwaves responsible for creating a meditative state, it seems to reason that this neural feedback is like a reward system for meditation. You sit and stare at a screen while a computer reads your brainwaves, and when those alpha waves (I'm assuming that's the paydirt in this instance) come flooding down, it rewards you with pleasing eye candy. That actually sounds pretty cool. I don't have ADD or any variants thereof, but I wouldn't mind taking a spin on one... How long before they hit the malls?
------- "I must create my own system, Or be enslaved by another man's" -William Blake
Why don't you or your wife stay at home and give her personal attention? You ARE giving your 6 year old daughter a mind altering drug whos behavior and method of operation are less than 10% understood.
Pointing out her IQ in your original posting was not necessary. She is 6, why can not she be a child?
i think i may have posted on here before about this, but i'll mention it again anyway.
My little sister does neuro-feedback/bio-feedback therapy, and its improved her life a lot more than flooding her brain with amphetamines like they do to most of the poor little bastards that float through the US "education" system. Keep in mind that ADHD is a pretty subjective thing to diagnose someone with, and people are quick to medicate for it, although very few of the people diagnosed with it really need to be taking meth every day to keep it under control. Psychotropic drugs are not really designed to help anyone, just make their behaviors easier to manage for those of us in the human services field.
Anyway (sorry about that soapboxing) my little sister is supposedly bipolar, ADHD, and emotionally disturbed. She's been taking biofeedback therapy and karate lessons for a few years now, and the benefits from the therapy were apperant very quickly (i'd say a month or two, but your milage may vary). After the series of "games" that the therapy takes the form of, with "points" to be earned towards reinforcers (money, ice cream, charts with stickers on them, etc), the therapy simultaniously simplifies and complexifies into computer-aided transcendental meditation. pretty nifty.
Many insurance providers now cover this (but by no means the majority), Oxford insurance in CT comes to mind, but without insurance the therapy usually costs about 1000 a year with a mix of simple use of the machine and sessions with the therapist (which cost more per session). Its easy to learn how to calibrate the machine (its similar to polygraph calibration, but cooler), making sessions with the therapist an excellent option but by no means nessisary.
The equipment can be purchased at www.brainfingers.com for around 2000 (last i checked, maybe its lower now). The equipment they sell there even has a neuro-to-midi program and the SDK included in the package!!
Anyway, anybody considering poisoning their children just so they can deal with them easier should look into therapy like neuro-feedback that results in actual growth and change rather than homeostasis and chemical restraint.
Thats not to say that these drugs don't have their place, i have another family member who wouldn't be with us right now if not for depakote and wellbutrin, but think twice before drugging someone up just because they don't think the same way you do and give neuro-feedback a shot. its -FUN-.
Its interesting to note that the research and development that resulted in this therapy originated in the fallout of the ill-conceived and unconstitutional prohibition on the scientific research of LSD. The people who didn't get locked up moved their equipment to study people practicing yoga and found that using their equipment, the same states of mind could be reached in 2 weeks that would have taken 2 years unassisted by neuro-feedback. chew on that for a while.
My son was diagnosed with ADD late in life (he was 16). The first treatment we tried was biofeedback therapy. The first step was a brain mapping (a 16 electrode EEG), which cost $800. This was to determine how the brain was functioning in various areas and the frequency of the various waves (Alpha, Theta, Beta etc.). We then went 2 to 3 times a week for 3 1/2 months. The treatments were 1 hour each at $75 per hour. I honestly didn't see any difference at the end of 3 1/2 months, and my son was not noticing any difference either. So, we discontinued biofeedbace and went on Adderal. He noticed an immediate improvement. But, he didn't like the long term idea of being on medication, and quit taking it when he was 17 1/2. He had changed schools and is now in a less structured system where he is allowed to progress at his own pace, without drugs. He is now showing significant improvement in his grades and social interaction.
There is much more to the story. However, the bottom line is that, as you have read in the other responses to this post, there doesn't seem to be a single solution that works for everyone. You need be willing to take the responsibility for your treatment and not blindly turn yourself over to the professionals.You need to be very empirical in your approach and be willing to discard the things that don't work in favor of the ones that do. It might take a while to discover the right combination.
In response to Cliff's original post and questions, I have used neurofeedback in the past to support me in overcoming ADHD like symptoms. Due to a general fear in our family about psychology in general, I never was formally diagnosed with ADHD, but have been told several times by friends that are licensed psycologist that I had all of the signs of this condition. (As an example, to do my homework as a kid I turned the radio and the TV on at the same time). As an adult I continued to have problems with this. Because of my general concern about medicating this issue, I chose not to go down a medication path. I was concerned with my perception that medication seemed to cut the performance curve of what was possible for me to do... I worked for a while with neurofeedback, and was truly suprised that it helped my concentration. From there, given its expense, I was not able to afford a lot of treatments. I never was able to find a medically proven device (other than the one from EEG Spectrum that the psychologist that I worked with) that was inexpensive enough for me to buy to go forward with further treatments after my cash supply ran out for this. However, the limited number of treatments did seem to really make a difference. It is noteworthy, at least in my case, that I also dealt with some of my issues through exercise 4 days a week in a rigorous martial art class. (specifically Aikido). Moreover, after the neurofeedback, I also enrolled, and now have been a student of a meditation practice (for the last 4.5 years- zazen) that has been of continuing support for me. I still have difficulties at times from wanting to get up, go to the bathroom, look outside, read my mail, check slashdot, and then repeat in the next 20 minutes, especially when I get off of my routine of exercising in Aikido and meditation... You might look into several different directions on this, not just neurofeedback. Good luck.
I'm a world class video game player because they're one of the few things I find fun.
ADD = I'm bored, I want to do something else.
Lots of smart people have it because they're not challenged enough.
Since I played out most video games, I'm writing the next big online game: Basically its A 3d StreetFighter clone online, with stats, castles.
One key is, no one's seen a StreetFighter clone with more than 2 fighters, and you can play free form, or go on an axis with other fighters.
ADD = This shit is too easy, give me something more challenging. Or make it entertaining.
I got through math, by playing tons of math video games on a TI-99 when I was young... Amazingly, just knowing basic addition/subtraction kept me above the curve.
ADD lets someone live an extreme lifestyle, don't slow the kid down, give them tons of fun stuff to educate them.
God spoke to me
I wonder if the makers of Ritalin (and the pharmaceutical industry in general) have commando teams of posters who roam the internet spouting their various products virtues whenever these kinds of discussions post up for discussion.. Look at how much they spend on the free stuff they give to doctors.
:)
I used to think that the big R was the 'Work Of The Devil'TM.
After reading the intelligent posts here, I'm not so sure.
And that worries me
Exactly where around the Cambridge Boston areas
might adults find treatment for adhd, add, dyslexia or such related concerns?...
How adults can get diagnosed and get treatment for
adhd, add, dyslexia, etc. is not a straightforward thing.
I personally was diagnosed as having ADD and tourets when I was 5 years old. I too was on ritalin until I was 17. I never did anything like this newfangled neural thing, but it does sound interesting, and in the name of science and all things geeky, it sounds like A Good Thing(tm). Ok here's my reasoning:
1) Each person has their own issues surrounding their ADD/ADHD/whatevertheyhave.
2) I was born in an extremely populated area (Silicon Valley) but I was 2 years old when my parents moved to a less densely populated area (western new york). My parents couldn't figure it out. The doctors MIGHT have put a finger on it, or perhaps managed to figure something out along those lines... bottom line was, my brain was too used to a lot of things going on and suddenly being in a place devoid of such occurrances caused it to become 'out of sync' as it were.
The ritalin was able to help a bit in that manner, it helped me focus, only it was not 100%. I was able to focus on somethings for the short term, but of course I was a kid so my mind was still trying to faster than everyone elses, it seemed.
When I graduated from high school I ditched the ritalin because I wanted to experience life without it. And it worked! Only it took me so many years to put many other pieces together, which I think was a rather negative side-effect of ritalin in general.
3) I also had nervous ticks.. got picked on a lot.. that sort of thing.. eventually I equated it to the spurge in population that had never occurred in human history before - there are more humans grouped together today then there were 80 years ago. The amount of issues that everyone deals with has increased sharply in that amount of time. Bottom line here is, when something happens, especially post-9/11, it's much more noticable. I just accept it in stride and move on.
I was born in 1975.
From my own experience with ADHD, it goes far beyond being hyper and having trouble paying attention. For one thing, the loss of focus and ability to concentrate is a persistent problem. In fact, it's such a persistent problem that everyday life becomes problematic. It can result in severe frustration. This frustration stems from tasks becoming simply too difficult to do as a result of shortened attention span and focus. Being able to organize thoughts and ideas becomes a challenge as well.
For me, if I don't take my medication regularly, I can become severely frustrated because of my ADHD. Something as simple as tieing my shoes or writing a check can actually become a difficult task. I would get frustrated and angry and would want to scream and throw things. I would also feel helpless and out of control.
The hyper part isn't just your quote-on-quote "too much sugar or caffeine" kind of hyperness. The kind of hyperness that comes with ADHD is the kind that might cause one to make an ass of himself. He might say things that are totally off topic or inappropriate for a given social situation (inappropriate meaning that it doesn't make sense or doesn't fit with the context of the situation). He might display a lack of logic in his words and actions. And he might be hyper in a way that causes him to be viewed as a clown. And most of all, he either A) Sees nothing wrong with the behavior or B) Doesn't realize he's doing it.
And let's not forget those fits anger that ADHD can cause. ADHD can cause what I call ADHD rage. It's almost like a temper tantrum. It's an irrational state of mind that's very primitive and childish. I'm not sure what it's relation is to the disorder, but throughout my life, I've experienced it.
Ritalin (methaphetamyn) stimulates the release of epinephrine (aka adrenaline). This is the same thing that caffiene does.
I will probably get rated -1 for lack of content, but I just wanted to say I totally agree with you. THERE IS ON SUCH THING such as ADHD. Doesn't exist.
It's just educators who don't know what to do with some children, and dump it on 'ADHD' as a blanket excuse.
Thank you for enlightening the people here.
I forgot to mention that I take Effexor XR. It does wonders for me because it not only works on my ADHD but it also helps other problems that I have as well. Ritalin has a bad reputation. I'd stay as far away from it as possible. I'm not sure about the neural feedback. That's something that I'm unfamiliar with.
Ok, here's a simple question: what is this doing on Slashdot?
Seriously, I don't understand. Is there a correlation between News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters, and this particular disease (or whatever it is)?
No, this is not meant as a Troll or Flamebait.
I'm just curious, because I've got some medical related questions of my own. I just would have never thought this was the place.
What are examples of medical related questions for slashdot readers?...
Besides cumulative trauma, attention deficit disorder and dyslexia
there appear to be a number of other related medical concerns for people using the industries technologies.
I had a long diatribe as is my fasion. But I was able to sum it up thusly:
In my opinion, the most important opinion will be hers. Get to know her. She may be different, but she is your daughter. If it is at all possible, she should have some say in her own destiny.
After all, its your decision that she will have to live with for the rest of her life.
The rest is anecdotal.
Its very scary shit no matter how you wrap it in pretty new technology, its still shock therapy.
As unrelated as it may seem, I would try some of the physical therepy treatments described in other posts before I tried out biofeedback on my child. Physical therapy was attempted across the US 25 - 30 years ago with halfway decent results( the methods were certainly imperfect). Only then the theory was that attention problems were due to the supposed fact that some children did not get enough crawling as a toddler, so they had classrooms institute a '1/2 hour crawling policy'. As crazy as it sounds, the results were 'interesting' and it did significantly help some children diagnosed with what would later be known as ADD.
I would check out the physical therapy thing. Maybe its nothing. But then again,it cannot possibly hurt her while you deliberate over the biofeedback option.
I think you underestimate just how much I just dont care.
Human history is awash in blood, not ink.
We see ink now, but it's all rather boring, and when the crap-pile of human endeavor topples over, the characteristics that lead medical profiteers and educators diagnose people as having a condition which keeps them from focusing on CRAP when they would be normally foraging, hunting, or working at surviving.
We live in a world where the intersection of relevance and effectiveness in k-12 education is twenty years behind us. The middle-class is in decline, and with perscription-happy insurance plans it's easier than ever to reconcile our children and ourselves to medicated bliss.
In the United States (can't speak for any other place) there's this sense of a risk-free world, a magical place where someone is responsible for anything and everything that could possibly happen to us or our children. Modern medicine is supposed to keep us alive, even if it means being butchered, or drugged into oblivion. We swallow (lovingly) the notion that if someone tells us our child can't function in an institution that the instituion is fine so the child must be broken. We're lock-step babies, passived before a system designed to socialize us into factory workers. That social contract has been tore-down by globalization. We no longer need to persue the goal of making good citizens to build appliances and cars. Other countries have taken that up. Our job, as good citizens of the United States, should be to make busloads of babies and train them all up to be soldiers (or as Bush-Lightyear once mentioned, "Crusaders") so our glorious leaders than play their enemies against each other and call upon our kids to unseat regimes that don't play. And if you act fast, you can have enough kids to still afford top-Ramen and diet-soda come tax-time. Once the sheeple wise up and you feel like you're walking through a PX while you stroll the mall, you can bet that whole child-tax-credit vibe will pop like a soap-bubble.
So here's a thought. If your kids have no interest in school it doesn't mean your child is broken. Human nature predates artifical constructs like school and "rule-of-law". Maybe they just need some quality hunter-gatherer time before commiting to a life of endless trivia and control. You know, before being mentally gelded to be useful to business and serve as good shoppers, consumers, and prisoners.
Every new form of media has it's own Requirimento
Boston Public Library Access Center resources include
a number of machines and services of interest to people
concerned about add attention deficit disorder, adhd attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and dyslexia
http://www.bpl.org/central/access.htm
More and more of our North American cities' public libraries
are providing staff development programming, training and supervision
for libraries public services desks' personnel.
If you are interested in biofeedback, I read about a game called Wild Divine (www.wilddivine.com) in Maximum PC. While I'm not suggesting it as a cure-all, it seems interesting and worth trying. I think the hardware costs about $150 US.
Yeah hahah- if it couldn't be done in the 3 minutes right as class was starting before it was collected, it didn't get done :)
:p
But I actually learned all the material- and did good on tests
I browse at +5 Flamebait- moderation for all or moderation for none.
Funny, anyone can 'say' they have ADD/ADHD, but to truely know for sure, through a technical and professional diagnosis, is the only true way.
Parents who don't know how to teach their kids control are obviously not to bright themselves - calling the doc to tell them that, then the doc can perform a search to see if the parent's claim is true or not.
Simple math, really.
When we perceived our son as 'different' in school the first reaction was that we were imagining it, but it gradually emerged that he indeed was different in his inability to sit still for less time than his peers, and the strange mix of total deep concentration on certain things like trains and his mentally wandering off when it wasn't interesting for him. In short, I recognised myself, but he's so borderline that it was difficult to get a formal diagnose (his age doesn't help). The good side of ADD is that he at one point got interested in writing and his focus assured he was writing words very soon (age 2.5), the downside is that it gets seriously in the way of social relations (which is the most important this early), and yes, it's certainly ADD (not too hard, I recognised myself here and apparently genetic influences play a big role here - as well as diet).
;-). It's IMO absolutely criminal that school catering is sometimes actually full of this crap, and sugar is a staple components of 'treats' which result in an overactive child that ends up being punished for it. Duh. So our child has a packed lunch as his school supports both (it also makes it easier to cater for some allergies if your child has them)
In the absence of any help we had a look at neurofeedback, and it's made a world of difference as he's now able to sit still and focus longer on other things he needs to learn, and it was a relief when the brain map finally showed clear and concrete evidence of the things we were only suspecting. However, in the UK you have to be VERY careful as there are a number of 'practicioners' who just grab the technology and don't keep up with research and peer review. This means that they don't benefit from the latest knowledge and research and their treatment lacks oversight - pretty questionable IMO with a relatively new field and usually indicative of someone just after the money instead of trying to help people.
Neurofeedback has a couple of benefits over medication:
1) it is simply 'training' the brain - not modifying it
2) it is extremely targeted treatment
3) there appear to be few side effects
However, with ADD, neurofeedback alone is not enough - make sure the diet is as healthy as possible. Avoid sugars and artificial/refined foods (btw, "avoid" does not mean replace with equivalents as artificial sugars are IMO a danger in itself) and try to create a diet as balanced as possible. 'Healthy' also doesn't equate to 'diet' as children growing up need fat - just try to keep it to unsaturated fats
Anyway, I digress. In summary, I believe ADD is helping our little boy and believe me, I've been nervously watching for signs of trouble. He's now very happy at his school (which was briefed on the issue) and doing well. What else could a caring parent wish for?
Good luck, and let me know how you get on!
Insert
I don't know why everyone is still talking about ADHD. Until it adds support for Ogg Vorbis, I'm not buying it.
I suggest having these people with ADD to have a list of "Things to Do" like us grups (Grown ups) have.
Not necessarily a list of things you want them to do, but rather a list of things for them to accomplish on their own. Naturally, they will get frustrated by "rushing" into things without thinking, (Their going to need help here) but perhaps they can learn to focus and figure out what their problem is, rather than drugs. Heck maybe they will want to use ritalin to slow themselves down, much like us grups us Cocaine to accomplish the same feat.
Regards,
So my guess is it would be pointless to take medication against ADD and Tourettes at the same time, although it might be good to have both available (e.g. for exams).
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
I read many of these posts and I almost want to cry. I see so many people who try biofeedback which may work for a while in some cases, but does not last and is not as effective as Ritalin or Adderall. ADD is a chemical imbalance in the brain, you cannot think your way out of ADD, you would just as well try to think your way out of Type I diabetes. Save yourself and your daughter the trouble and ask a doctor what is causing the tics and consider trying Adderall or Dexadrine.
Impersonating Tycho from Penny Arcade since before there was a PA.
There are many issues involving ADD & ADHD (the H stands for Hyperactive) treatment. I was diagnosed with ADD at age 28, my wife at age 26.
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From my experience, what I've found is:
a) People that don't have it or haven't lived with it generally don't understand it. You can have ADD and not be hyperactive, you just arn't able to concentrate (this is the category I fall into). ADD affects the way your mind prioritizes what it focuses on, and ends up not being able to focus on the "right" thing. This can be a blessing as well as a curse, as it can lead to creative thinking when you should for example, be paying the bills or working on homework.
b) ADD affects adults as well as children. Most adults that have ADD tend to have learned coping strategies to deal with it like keeping notes on what needs to be done, etc. This doesn't solve the underlying problem though. As an example, I would have a hard time walking from one end of the house to another to do something without getting distracted, and forgetting about what I was doing. With proper medication, I can walk from one end of the house, notice something out of place that needs to be put where I was going, pick it up, get a phone call, answer it, and still get done what I was trying to do in the first place when all is said and done.
c) ADD research is finding that it seems to be related to other neurological disorders such as narcolepsy and depression. Some of the newer medications found to help ADD were developed to fight Narcolepsy (Provigil). People with ADD tend to have depression and Alcoholism to a much higher degree than others, etc. Learning to understand the disorder instead of burying one's head in the sand is important.
d) Not all ADD medications are stimulants, such as provigal and strattera. I personally take Adderall, and it works wonders for me. Care should be taken with Adderall though, as it is a stimulant. Users should NOT take it continuously, as the effects wear off, and if dependent on it, they will end up increasing their dosage on their own, feeling they need it, which happened to my wife. I, on the other hand, realized that I just needed to take a break from it, which I did on the weekends. My doctor perscribed both Provigil and Adderall, and I alternated between one another so that I didn't develop a tolerance to either one, yet had something to help me all the time as needed.
e) Medication is just a tool. Using it can allow one to understand their behavior and help learn different ways of doing things. I use the analogy of a man who was born blind. If you tried to describe the beauty of a sunset, and what "orange" and "pink" were, he may think he understands, but still not fully grasp it. Give that man sight for a day, and he can understand what color is better. This is what many medications that affect the brain are like, when you find the right one, you can "see" how you are different, and use that knowledge to help adjust yourself to the world.
With concern to the original post, I can't see how using such a treatment could hurt, however, you may also want to see if your daughter can change treatments to gain better results. Below I've listed the primary webpages for the drugs I know about to help treat ADD. Since she is not old enough to understand this stuff herself, it is up to you to make the calls. I learned after I was an adult, and did the research on my own to find the right solution for myself.
Note also that ADD/ADHD is many times tied to depression and other problems. These will probably rear their head in the future, and expect that other issues may come up in the future.
http://www.adderallxr.com/
http://www.provigil
http://www.strattera.com/
Another thing--many people that I've talked too about this that have ADD have tried Adderall with provigil, and we all seem to agree on one thing: Taking both at low doses together seem to work better than either alone. My Dr. mentioned that other patients he had said the same thing. Check out this URL, as there is some interesting discussion on this topic and others related to it:
http://www.amenclinic.com/treenic/topic.asp?TOP
I hope this helps!
I went to Drake institute, summer 2002. (http://www.drakeinstitute.com/)
:)
Visual bio-feedback and all.
I also, on the advice of my japanese wife who saw study done in japan on ADD and the relationship with the brain when under video-game mode and Alzeimer's, and their treatment was three-ball juggling. For ten minutes straight.
I couldn't juggle, at all.
I got the hang of it, slowly, trying every day. If I did 5 I was happy.
That was summer of 2003.
On Dec 20, 2003 I hit 1150 juggles.
Last week, I did 1900 straight.
Now, I stop at ten minutes, and don't even count.
The level of concentration is insane when you get to above 500. The brain wants to stop, to roam, to defocus and wander.
Yet 1/2 second of defocus, and the ball is on the floor.
You can't blink, you can't let your mind wander, you can't let your eyes stray.
Now, when I am feeling myself drift, I imagine that I am juggling fast (at 4/sec or so), and I get very focused very fast, and I can concentrate on the task at hand.
About biofeedback: It's a way for you to train yourself to relax yourself (I imagine my hands and feet are warm and do deep breathing exercises) and to focus your mind. It visually lets you know the spot you want to be at. Once you "get it" you know it, then don't need the visual feedback to know you're focused.
But like everything else, if you don't use it, you lose it.
Ultimately it's worked for me. My relationship with my wife has improved dramatically, my job is not suffering, my firends have all noticed a difference, and my schooling is progressing rapidly.
I'm 35. Yes it was expensive ($5500 for 40 1 hr sessions), yet in the grand scheme of things, it's not.
Oh, and My driving has improved greatly (I had 3 accidents in 4 years, but nothing, not even a scratch, since).
To poster: If you want to contact me, it's chris_mahan hat yahoo dotte com.
PS: The first 10 sessions were for stress reduction, learning how to drop stress levels. Very effective even though I slept through 3 sessions
"Piter, too, is dead."
http://openeeg.sourceforge.net/doc/index.html
I would like to see your crendtials. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
My fiance has a six year old son with ADHD (let's call him Mike). She lives at home with her parents, so the single mom thing really isn't an issue. Mike did not sit up until he was almost a year old (six months late), and could not walk until he was two (a year late). At 4 he was placed in an Early Childhood program because he was so far behind developmentally that it was questionable whether he would be able to enter Kindergarten on time.
Early Childhood helped quite a bit. Mike's test scores came up into the average range by the middle of the second year. However, his behavior was still a serious issue. He could not chain instructions together (take off your coat and put it in the closet, and come back here), and his lack of concentration was so bad that he could not learn the alphabet, which they recommend a child know before they start Kindergarten. His behavior caused serious disruptions in the classroom which would not be tolerated in Kindergarten.
Mike was put on a low dose of Concerta. He was finally able to focus long enough to follow instructions, and learn the alphabet.
Now he is six and a half. He is just now starting to read, though he seems to be limited to four letters or less per word. He has been on Concerta for a year now, and the results have been satisfacory, not great. He stills has problems with concentration, even on the medication, and when it wears off he can't focus for more than a couple of seconds at a time. We have had to increase the dosage because he is growing so fast (he is already sixty pounds, and has grown two inches in the last three months), and since we aren't thrilled with Concerta's effectiveness for him, we have switched to Strattera (sp?).
The point of all this is that everyone with ADHD isn't just an undisciplined brat. And certainly everyone with ADHD isn't smart and bored. I've seen Mike both on and off the medication and there is not a doubt in my mind that it isn't helping him; in learning, social situations, and general happiness. For some people, the medication really helps.
Every child is different. Some respond to medication, some don't. Some don't need it. Some do. It's your job as a parent to figure out what is best for your child as an individual. That means researching, asking questions, getting a second or third opinion, talking to lots of professionals before deciding on a course of therapy that may or may not include medication, but always bearing in mind the nature and character of the person whose fate you are deciding. You've got to know your kid, and decide what's best for them.
And in closing to the parent, you really are in no place to pass judgement from on high without the slightest trace of informed opinion. You try making these decisions for your child, and see how heart-wrenching it is. You go tell a dozen health professionals that you love your son, but dear god you think he's fucked up somehow, and you want to help him, and listen to what they have to say. Then come back and tell us all what lousy parents we are because we decided to medicate our kids.
Ass.
i was diagnosed with ADHD when i was young, i did the ritalin, you might find your daughter is under more control now, but you might also notice in the future how ritalin has affected her social development (walking dead syndrome), dont forget ritalin is a depression inducer if taken for too long, thanks to ritalin, when i was 8, i spent an entire summer on a couch in my old house in israel, i thought it was important for someone who practicly tried everything to give you a bit of a run down of everything thats happened, i started with an american psycheatrist, who perscribed ritalin and used a gameboy to lure me in to coming to sessions (my parents didnt want to buy me one since they thought i wouldnt go anymore), well, i was somewhat of an outcast in primary school, then later developen in to somewhat of a bully, my interest in computers has been somewhat of a escape valve, letting me close my self off in a different world, at the age of 10 i could allready assemble and dismantle most of the internal workings, the problem is people think im bright, i think im bright, i understand concepts like linear modular programing, the baisc principles (which dosnt exist BTW), calculus, i just cant focus my thoughts to a point where i can do an exam o put it down to paper, as you can see from my response, its quite erratic, what i wanted to say is that ive tasted ritalin, the taste was bitter, i tested biofeedback, in somethings it worked, somethings it didnt. i did alot of things to try to pull farward, i managed to finish my A-Levels in Math, chemisty and spanish literature, which allowed me university access, but now im stuck with the problem again that my lack of focus compleatly disrupts my university study habbits, im on my first year of my 2nd attempt, i was expelled from telecoms engneering, and now im doing computer science in the carlor tercero university in spain, tell you the truth, i feel broken, i feel like ive tried everything but every time i feel that more and more my destiny is a degree in fried chopped bobine mass rotation engneering (flipping burgers), i have one last thing to test, my father gave me an envalope from an institue called the dore achivment center, its based out of the Uk but has US branches, at first i thought it was some british version of the nigerian 419 or whatever their called, but i checked it out, and it seems legite, the site for the institute is www.ddat.co.uk, it seems to base itself on correcting the stimulus to the celeberum or whatever its called (i also suffer from bad spelling), i dont know, im 22 allready, in april im gonna turn 23, and this febuary i see another round of failed exams, im really doutbing if to test this institiue, but if they can do what they say they can do, maybe the next round of exams wont be as bad as this one, i have ADHD, and i suffered alot becuase my mother took me to every new treatment around, im just trying to save you time, and just want to take you to the point i manage to get to, im going to try this dore DDAT thing, its probobly going to be my last attempt before i turn to McD for an education. i hope your daughter never feels the desperation and fear of the future i have and still do feel.
Here are some links that I saved quite a while ago. Neurofeedback and Biofeedback devices,resources and such. These links probably aren't much better than what's been posted already, but I stuck them here anyway. Some "Biofeedback Doctors" are better than others, just like any other specialization. Some are totally worthless actually. Just like anything else KEEP TRYING--persistance is the key.
Judning from above comments and the likes of it. There seems to be child psychiatrists in abdundance, strangley enough they all seem to gather around a tech focused site. And even further strange, they all seem to have knowledge that surpasses the current knowledge of those that acctually practise the discused field of expertise.
Around here (Germany), this is still something which is not widely recognized as a problem, so information is hard to come by. I have read through most of the comments in this thread, and recognized some problems people here had and "fixed" as what I myself had and still have trouble with, too. I have never seen a doctor about this, since I never even thought that my troubles with concentrating e.g. when I still was at school could be something which could be treated.
:), but my mother often tells me the story) they did some kind of test to figure out which children might have problems - it involved telling the child to walk along a line painted on the floor from one end of the room to the other. Apparently I was one of the only children to fail miserably, because I always walked away... So they told my parents that I might have some kind of mental disability (as in "he's an idiot, any child of that age should be able to do it"). Well, my parents were against putting me in a school for the mentally challenged, so life went on. At age five, I started reading and when I went to school at age six, I already read books (e.g. "The Hobbit"). I finished elementary school with a perfect score ("A" in all tests, except for sports, where I never was really good) - even though I never, ever spent time learning at home. I just went to school and did my stuff, then I went home and had fun. My teachers told my parents that I was nice and intelligent, but that I was "overactive".
So, please, let me tell you about my situation and then please tell me what you think about a.) are these typical symptoms and b.) is there something I can do about it as an adult (33yrs.)?
When I still was in Kindergarten, (I cannot remember it myself
Then came the Gymnasium (that's approx. up to High School, e.g. age 11 to 18, pre-University). Everything started out fine like in elementary school, i.e. I did pretty well, even though I had trouble with some of the teachers becaues of my tendency to do other stuff while sitting in class. The first three years I received prices for being one of the best in class. I still did not learn one single bit at home, except for homework. Well, yes - I tried, since it seemed important to my parents that it looked to them as if I *was* doing something, but to me it mainly involved reading the relevant stuff for a while and then browsing through the rest of the books for interesting stuff until enough time had been wasted. During the next years, there were some classes I started to have trouble with, though. Mainly history and geography, i.e. the classes which involved sitting down and simply learning stuff until you knew it by heart. Whenever I sat down to learn, I could not do so for more than maybe half an hour before my mind started drifting off to other things. I started doing really bad at tests in those classes, and in other classes I went from very good to average. My parents were at a loss - "look at those classes [e.g. history] - all you have to do is learn those facts and remember them, it's nothing you have to be extremely intelligent for, anybody can do that, and you ARE intelligent, so it should be really easy for you".
I finished the Gymnasium with a very average score and went on to study in order to become a teacher, since I liked working with children. While the theoretical stuff was very interesting, the learning was pure horror. Since you had to organize your time yourself (unlike school), my inability to sit down and use my free afternoons to work for several hours at a time really gave me trouble. It was even worse when I had an internship for two weeks - I talked with my tutor about the classes I had to give the next day, and when I went home, I sat down to prepare them. Since I could not keep my mind on the work, I tended to space out and think about other stuff, then I had to take a short walk to "free my mind" again, worked for another half hour and so on - until three or four in the morning, when I finally had the work done. Let's say I realize
I'm sorry, but that's not the case.
:/
.. It simply means your brain functions slightly differently the most other's do. And, if worked on properly, this can actually turn out to be an advantage.
With ADHD, in laymen's terms, one's brain does not operate at the same speed as a "normal" brain. In order to keep functioning properly, it requires more stimulus then the average brain in order to stay alert.
"knowledge/computers/games/etc" do no keep one's brain stimulated throughout the entire day. These things, if attractive, are at best, a momentary solution.
Throughout the day people with ADHD have tendencies to act out, shift their attention rapidly, and/or move around frequently. They do this to stay alert. If they don't do this they start to drift off, and in some cases, even begin to fall asleep.
I have "ADHD." I've never been a disruptive or disorderly child or adult. As a matter of fact, I've always been quite a pleasant person. However, I have always had problems with restraining from kinesthetic actions and/or focusing my attention. As a result of this, my grades suffered as a child, and I've always constantly jittered my right leg like a jackhammer while doing work I dislike.
No amount of discipline would ever, or could ever, stop me from doing this. Regardless of whether you smack me, yell at me, or discipline me in some other way... my brain chemistry is not going to change. I'm sorry, but it's a fact of neuropsychology and biology.
Currently, I do not take any medication. Some individuals have more sever ADHD and probably require ridlin or adderall, but I don't. ADHD is never the same for any one person.
Many people can learn to deal with ADHD by working with a good psychologist / councilor. For many, ADHD is not necessarily a "problem"
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
I hold more than a dozen patents
You say this like it's a good thing.
I don't have any first-hand experience, and I certainly can't improve on the many helpful and enlightening posts already added to this thread, but I would be like to recommend the Reciprocality Project, and their page about the ADHD, CFIDS and Acquired Autism connection.
I hadn't heard of Neural Feedback Therapy that I can recall so I googled it, first in quotes without any results then without the quotes and the first result was this:
"If you are looking for a DRUG FREE alternative treatment for Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD/ADHD), Dyslexia or Learning Disabilities, then you have come to the right place!"
From SHARPER MIND CENTERS
Reading the rest of the post, using sensors to measure brainwave activity it sounds like regular biofeedback. I went through a few months of therapy using biofeedback, and it was quite relaxing. But that was the aim, to relax and not to concentrate. It can help with concentration or focus though. As for the cost, I don't know what it is now but when I was doing it a few years ago it was $100 an hour. Because I wanted to use biofeedback on a regular basis I investigated some on getting the equipment myself but I thought the cost was too high for myself though others may think it's not, also a prescription was needed buy some of the equipment . I don't know if I have them anymore but when I was researching I found some websites, webpages, with schematics and parts lists to build the equipment yourself which would bring down the costs but then the user would have to know how to use it if s/he could build it themself.
Should there be a Law?
I found a tool at www.centerpointe.com that have helped me a lot. Later I started using sbagen instead, but baybe I'll go back to use centerpointes version later(when I get more money).
Take a look your self. It is a tool that induces brainwaves in your brain. It's great tool for treating ADHD.
Take also a look at sbagen.sourceforge.net.
... what? did you say something?
"As someone who qualifies to join Mensa (but chooses not to join), I heartily agree with several of your points. (FWIW, I apparently have an IQ above 140. I'm not trying to brag"
Oh good, I'm glad you aren't bragging. Since you are (coyly) claiming to be above 140 can I assume that you aren't much over that? That puts you in about 2% of the population, about the same proportion as say, active male homosexuals, or (at a guess) NRA members, or convicted felons.
Not, exactly, a standout result worth bragging about.
The only time I had my IQ measured properly it was 182. I was pretty pleased, given that I had been in the pub until 3 the same morning and was pretty sure I shouldn't have driven in to take the test. I also f..ed with them by only answering the questions I knew the answer to, in the (separate) maths tests.
As an engineer I grind 'idea fairies' under my feet. Most of the hard work is in the analysis, not the synthesis.
After reading /. for years, I logged on contribute to this discussion.
I teach such children with my wife in our little school here in Japan. We encounter children that have been "diagnosed" with disorder every now and then. My experience with such children is that more often than not, it is the ridgid expectations of their surroundings than anything else that is the root of the "problems". With the right environment and careful interaction, all the children we have dealt with "recover".
We are just now at the end of a very "serious" case of an "ADD" Asperger/Autistic boy. It has been very challenging, not least because we adults must control ourselves in how we behave with these children. What a difference a year of gentle humanity makes! From "unschoolable" to "normal".
From the discussions regarding ADD ADD Asperger and Autism over the years, I do feel that there is a tedency to over diagnose in the USA. I shy away from such solutions. There are usually MANY other avenues that could be persued first, and are not. By the time parents seek help, they are too frazzled.
Having said that, there's something I must say here:
I am not an MD or medical expert.
So saying, There have been times when I have encountered situations where drugs are being used on children, and I have bowed to the judgment of medical opinion. Perhaps some cases are so far gone (and parents too, often as not, are inflexible in their behavior), or the kids simply need it.
There is alot more I could post, but my own kids want to do stuff, and I have not read all the posts yet. I feel there is much I can relate in my own experiences both as a parent and a teacher.
Sorry I am not aware of the bio-feed back solution. Hope you get some good data from this discussion.
a
Cut out the sugar and white bread. That's it. I'm not kidding.
But I actually learned all the material- and did good on tests :p
:)
You mean that you did "well" on tests. Either that, or English courses were an exception.
STOP MISUSING APOSTROPHES, YOU MORONS!!!
Stratera is available, is a non-stimulant and is not a controlled substance.
I use it and it works great.
My wife does stay at home now. We can mostly survive on my income alone, and 2 of the 3 kids are not at school (and in fact are still in nappies) so would need childcare if she worked. So it makes sense for her to stay home for many reasons. Or were you referring to home schooling? That's something we have considered but it's not really her education that is the problem. It's her ability to relate to other people and to handle day to day things.
Ritalin is a mind altering drug (It would be pretty stupid giving her a non-mind altering drug when the aim is to alter her mind). I'd hazard a guess that you haven't done nearly the amount of research that I have on this subject, and are just echoing what you have heard in popular media. The behaviour and method of operating of many medications that alter the mind is not well understood. Think of epilepsy, depression, bi-polar, schizophrenia. In fact a lot of those medications have horrible side effects. But they are still prescribed because the good of prescribing them outweighs the bad of not prescribing them. re: ritalin, I don't know about your 10% figure, but from what i've read, any given theory of how it works is agreed upon by no more than about 10% of experts... although I think they've got a much better idea now than a few years ago.
Giving her IQ a number doesn't make her any less a child. I probably could have said 'high iq' or something, but 120 is high, as is 180, but are completely different ballgames. There are some theories that anyone with a high iq doesn't have adhd (google for 'gifted'), so I thought it quite relevant.
You keep saying 'let her be a child'. I don't think that really means anything in this context. It almost sounds like you are suggesting I ignore the problem and pretend it will sort itself out. My opinion is that if something is affecting your childs happiness and wellbeing, then as a parent it is your responsibility to help them.
Unless you kids are autistic, don't fuck with them. If they can't pay attention in class, put them in private schools where the curriculum is more challenging. Nine times out of ten kids who screw around, draw and doodle, clown around instead of getting work done probably aren't being challenged. I know, I was one of these kids. When they finally did some standardized testing the school system discovered that kids like myself were 'bright' and were bored with average work. Once you get into something more advanced and difficult, you pay attention and do work.
I had a problem like that in Jr High and High school though I paid attention in class. My problem was doing homework was hard for me. When I was a senior in hs my two favorite teachers told me I would of been a straight "A" student if I only did the homework, my reply was "why do the homework if I know the material?" Now I know why, once I started college and had to do homework I had a hard tyme doing any of it even though I needed to. Maybe if I had been more challenged I would of done the homework, but as it was I did take "advanced" classes. In science for instance though only one year of biology was required I also took 1 1/2 years of chemistry and 1/2 year each of ecology and marine biology. When I took ecology and marine bio it was the first tyme they were offered at my school.
I have issues with the current American school system still
Same here, I guess in part because what happened to me when I was going into 7th grade is where I started having trouble doing homework. Towards the end of 6th grade we had counselers from the jr high come into my school to talk to us about what classes we wanted to take and mine told me that though I should take algebra he couldn't let me take it because I didn't know how to do squareroots. So I took as advanced a math class as I could trying to learn squareroots without taking algebra until 10th grade. Several weeks after the year started when I was in 10th grade my math teacher collected all the homework when class started, leafed through them, took out one and ripped it up in front of the class. It was mine. I blew up, ended grabbing my stuff then went to see my guidance counselor and told her I needed to get out of his class. She went through my records and said I should of taken algebra. I said "But I can't, I don't know how to do squareroots" and she said that's when you learn to do them. Blew up again.
Since that experience I've looked at the educational system as screwed up.
Should there be a Law?
Your reply seems a bit glib, but you may be on to something. Behavourial problems in kids may have dietary factors. Anecdotal reports suggest that allergies to common food colourings, dairy products, etc may be involved in some cases.
It's worth monitoring and improving the diet, anyhow, as it won't cost you much and is drug-free.
There is a book on additives and food related character changes.
Fed Up
sue dengate
ISBN 0-09-183698-0
"Understanding how food affects your child and what you can do about it."
My son was tagged ADHD and we looked at lots of things, naturapath included. It turned out that the behaviour was related to a reading problem that was caused by poor schooling we went into an intensive reading program run by Macquarie University (Sydney Aust) it was literally incredible the results. We still have interesting times but they got better because the confidence boost made my son a new person.
Ritalin is a panacia to all the behaviour problems lately, I would advise against it's use except when you have exhausted the other avenues. Think about this, why do you slow the kid down when you ply them with speed (what ritalin actually is). This is a Naturapath type answer, the doctors don't actually know why it works. If the doctor wants to prescribe and not monitor the result then they are not doing you or your child any favours.
That's my MBTI, borderline Thinking, Feeling. But my Introversion and iNtuition are extreme with Perceptive being about half way to the end.
Should there be a Law?
It keeps you from being normal .
I.E. keeping you from graduating from High School, getting that date (getting A date), actually finishing those genius late night projects, sleeping at night, following and holding conversations, I could go on...
Noncompliance is one of the biggest isues with mood disorders [see merck's entry on the subject], which means you take the drugs, then you think you're okay, so you don't take the drugs anymore or anyone's suggestions.
Sure I feel like a genius and am hyper-productive when I'm affected by mood-disorder diseases, but can I actually function...do I actually have a life and friends?
I welcome any new research into getting myself back into mainstream. My intelligence is not affected, just my hyperactivity.
-Dan
Solution? Get the purple pill that costs an arm and a leg and I will have to stay on for life lest my symptoms get worse.
I've got a severe form of reflux myself, gastroesophageal reflux, and was taking that purple pill until the generic omeprazole was released. There's something that can be done though, there's an operation a Gastrointeralogist can perform to stop the reflux. I'm hoping to get it sometyme this year.
Should there be a Law?
High-Beta brainwave reinforcment is an excellent exercise for stimulating the brain, the whatever-it's-called-this-century of your daughter will disappear. You may want to make sure your doctor is aware of the potential side effects. (if you reinforce the wrong frequencies on the wrong side of the brain you can trigger a depression in an healthy subject, this I have seen done)
So definitely go for it, but be careful.
The traditional "neural feedback" for ADHD involves a whack with a ruler, administered by a Catholic nun. I suspect it is rather effective, although it may have unwanted (if temporary) side-effects.
After all, they are the ones holding society back, ADHD students tend to be the geniouses of the class. Just lack of respect and consideration by teachers is generally the reason for their failings.
I personally find the education system to be the failing as well as bad parenting. I was never the Mr. Popular, nor now looking back at high school, did I ever really want to be. Sure it would have been fun at times, but I worked past that and enjoy my life better now. Parents think a kid has to be socially active. Guess what, by feeding this kid pills you are hendering the child's natural ability to develop, and there for setting the child back when the child has to have the pills stopped.
I am not against neral feedback training though, anything to advance the child rates ok by me. I wish I could understand the world around me better sometimes, but I then get back to work on the project I need to and forget about all of those meanial things
Place something witty here
Spot on! Though I'm not ADD or whatever the hell they call it, nor do I have kids (hey, I'm only 22!), but based upon my experiences and observations I do think it's poor parenting.
Kids crave stimulation and sitting down in a classroom isn't stimulation. 5 year olds should be playing - whether it be in a sandpit, climbing a tree, building things with lego, finger painting or whatever... they're full of energy! Kindergarten for me was nothing but creative playtime.
It's been shown too that kids are more attentive in class if they do PE first thing in the morning. Healthy body, healthy mind. Being crammed full of artifical junk food and crappy TV (read: violent japanese cartoons) and all that probably doesn't help much either.
I grew up on a plant nursery and my parents always encouraged me to play in the garden... I was always digging holes, playing with Tonka trucks in the sandpit, climbing trees, learning how to garden and all that sort of stuff, that's when I wasn't inside playing with lego or other mind-challenging toys like Meccano. Computers (long live the C64!) were a natural progression. At night my parents would always read to me, I'd watch Bugs Bunny and Dr. Who with my Dad. My Dad always encouraged me to watch science and current affair shows.
I was also fortunate with school too... I went to a small school (I think the most students we ever had was about 160) that was very close-knit, where everyone knew everyone and we were all friends. Parents were also heavily involved and the teachers were very dedicated. They all put a lot of effort into making sure that I was pushed, as I was always at the top of the class. We also did PE almost everyday, and in my last couple of years at primary school we'd play soccer or footy at lunch with our teacher.
So now I've rambled on a fair bit, but I hope you get my point - hyperactive kids are hyperactive because they're not being stimulated enough. Let them be kids (what's the world coming to when 13 y.o.'s are getting drunk, doing drugs and getting pregnant?), spend as much time with them as you can and challenge their minds - broaden their horizons and encourage them to think and to question things, not just accept them.
I have to say I can't believe that this "disease" is as prevalent as it supposedly is, but no one seems to talk about causes; as even though the condition may not be new, the diagnosis of it is very new.
What about diets? Too much sugar? Caffeine perhaps? Children eat way too much sugar in america and parent are only too happy to feed it to them. What about all the additives that are put in almost all food?
Imagery? We live in an image based culture - we are bombarded with images constantly - imagery is hostile to rational thought and it's about time people started taking this issue seriously. I am mainly talking TV here, but also signs and ads. Most of what is on television is disjointed and caters to the shortest attention span.
Advertising? We are bombarded with trivial lies all the time - from all prices ending in ".99" to fast food restaraunts in strip malls promoting themselves as "neighborhod restaraunts". What is the cumulative effect of this mountain of nonsense, really? I can't belive it has no effect on the human psyche at all.
I'm sure that developing tics is an unacceptable side effect of the medication and the medication should be stopped immediately and alternative medications or approaches tried..
This excerpt might be a revelation to you:
1. GLIB and SUPERFICIAL CHARM -- the tendency to be smooth, engaging, charming, slick, and verbally facile. Psychopathic charm is not in the least shy, self-conscious, or afraid to say anything. A psychopath never gets tongue-tied. They have freed themselves from the social conventions about taking turns in talking, for example.
2. GRANDIOSE SELF-WORTH -- a grossly inflated view of one's abilities and self-worth, self-assured, opinionated, cocky, a braggart. Psychopaths are arrogant people who believe they are superior human beings.
3. NEED FOR STIMULATION or PRONENESS TO BOREDOM -- an excessive need for novel, thrilling, and exciting stimulation; taking chances and doing things that are risky. Psychopaths often have a low self- discipline in carrying tasks through to completion because they get bored easily. They fail to work at the same job
for any length of time, for example, or to finish tasks that
they consider dull or routine.
4. PATHOLOGICAL LYING -- can be moderate or high; in moderate form, they will be shrewd, crafty, cunning, sly, and clever; in extreme form, they will be deceptive, deceitful, underhanded, unscrupulous, manipulative, and dishonest.
5. CONNING AND MANIPULATIVENESS- the use of deceit and deception to cheat, con, or defraud others for personal gain; distinguished from Item #4 in the degree to which exploitation and callous ruthlessness is present, as reflected in a lack of concern for the feelings and suffering of one's victims.
6. LACK OF REMORSE OR GUILT -- a lack of feelings or concern for the losses, pain, and suffering of victims; a tendency to be unconcerned, dispassionate, coldhearted, and unempathic. This item is usually demonstrated by a disdain for one's victims.
7. SHALLOW AFFECT -- emotional poverty or a limited range or depth of feelings; interpersonal coldness in spite of signs of open gregariousness.
8. CALLOUSNESS and LACK OF EMPATHY -- a lack of feelings toward people in general; cold, contemptuous, inconsiderate, and tactless.
9. PARASITIC LIFESTYLE -- an intentional, manipulative, selfish, and exploitative financial dependence on others as reflected in a lack of motivation, low self-discipline, and inability to begin or complete responsibilities.
10. POOR BEHAVIORAL CONTROLS -- expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper; acting hastily.
11. PROMISCUOUS SEXUAL BEHAVIOR -- a variety of brief, superficial relations, numerous affairs, and an indiscriminate selection of sexual partners; the maintenance of several relationships at the same time; a history of attempts to sexually coerce others into sexual activity or taking great pride at discussing sexual exploits or conquests.
12. EARLY BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS -- a variety of behaviors prior to age 13, including lying, theft, cheating, vandalism, bullying, sexual activity, fire-setting, glue-sniffing, alcohol use, and running away from home.
13. LACK OF REALISTIC, LONG-TERM GOALS -- an inability or persistent failure to develop and execute long-term plans and goals; a nomadic existence, aimless, lacking direction in life.
14. IMPULSIVITY -- the occurrence of behaviors that are
unpremeditated and lack reflection or planning; inability to
resist temptation, frustrations, and urges; a lack of
deliberation without considering the consequences; foolhardy, rash, unpredictable, erratic, and reckless.
15. IRRESPONSIBILITY -- repeated failure to fulfill or honor
obligations and commitments; such as not paying bills, defaulting on loans, performing sloppy work, being absent or late to work, failing to honor contractual agreements.
16. FAILURE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OWN ACTIONS -- a failure to accept responsibility for one's actions reflected in low conscientiousness, an absence of dutifulness, antagonistic manipulation, denial
"The only clear view is from atop the mountain of our dead selves." - Peter Carroll
Neurofeedback made a big difference for me. I did it once a week for 8 months (I was a hard case) And the difference seems to have been permanent. (It has been 3 years since my neurofeedback sessions) I have much much better control over my inner states now. I can recognize the spazzed out state and bring myself back into a state of clarity relatively easily most of the time.
In the three years since neurofeedback I've only popped a ritalin 5 or 6 times, though I still rely heavily on coffee.
But the benefits of neurofeedback went beyond managing my add symptoms. It seemed to help me form a better sense of identity, or to use new-age language, to become more integrated & centered. Which is quite a nice feeling.
AND, it was very pleasant, and easy -- no stress, no worry about negative side effects.
Parents out there, put your kids to bed at a decent time so they get 9 or more hours of sleep and see how they do at home and school.
For some kids those 9 hours would be torture, I know. I was born an insomniac, all the sleep I needed was about 6 hours, if that. No, most of the tyme I'd either lay in bed with a flashlight and read a book or I'd slip outside, outside I'd run around the neighberhood and or lay on the ground and stare at the stars imagining I was exploring different worlds. Even now, though it doesn't happen as often as it used to I could be awake for more than two days, sleep a few hours, then be up another couple of days.
Sleeping is a waste of tyme!
Should there be a Law?
Not all of it, and doing more homework would have helped *some*, no my real problem was on the output side, I couldn't do timed written tests. My writting was illegible and mispelled and my calculations always had trivial mistakes in them. But I also managed to 4-5 on 3 AP tests and had the highest SAT score in my class. So I was learning even though I didn't do a lot of homework.
-jon
Something I find intersting about this thread is how many people claim to have ADHD and managed to not only read the long-winded original post but also respond to it in an equally long-winded and thoughtful manner.
That is not characteristic of ADHD.
I was a Math/CS major
-jon
...because that sounds absolutely nothing at all like any symptoms of Attention Deficit Disorder, most ESPECIALLY Hyperactive type.
Have you taken her to see a psychiatrist who can run the full battery of tests to determine where the issue lies?
Myself, and almost every kid I've ever met with ADD variants is exceptionally bright, creative, often extremely hard to keep under control, and ocasionally mischievous. Someone who can keep herself busy by chatting with herself, and won't get dressed without permission in the morning sounds a lot more like high-form autism than traditional ADD/ADHD. Ritalin will work for high-form autism as well, and that type of autism will rarely impact an individual's life the way normal autism would, but it is definitely a challenge.
I'll also echo one of the other posters: Get a doctor's opinion on the subject. Preferably several doctors' opinions.
You thought that this sig was what you think that I thought you wanted me to think. I think.
Please do not misunderstand, I am in no way making any implication about the actual existence or otherwise and prevalence of any of the P(AHD) conditions or whether they are or are not disorders. But, if we are accept that ther has been an increase in the reported cases then we have to ask why. Either there is an actual increase in the incidence or an increase in the circumstances that are interpreted as being an incidence when previously they wre not.
Let us assume that there is no actual increase in incidence, and that apart from the misdiagnoses, there are a number of sets of circumstances (I don't even want to use thw word symptoms) that are now being called ADD or whatever and that number is increased. How were these people "treated" before. Well I think that a huge number of them were socialised into modifying their behaviour. I hear all the people saying, "you can't know unless you can understand my complete inability to concentrate", well look at life in the 19th century. Go down a coal mine and fail to concentrate, either it will make no difference, your coworkers will beat the crap out of you for not helping them meet quota or you will die becuase you forgot to sure up the shaft. Same thing goes for social situations. Children were seen and not heard. The corporal punishment so often involved in abberant behaviour was a massive incentive to control the behaviour. Similarly the need for these people to be able to concentrate on life challenges or starve made them "self treating" (perhaps that lead to a lot of self medicating as well but I think more often not).
So what? I heare you cry. Well I think that the lives of a lot of these sufferers would have been pretty miserable. But then their actual lives were pretty miserable as well and so the fact that concentrating was impossible or they couldn't get along in school were luxuries that simply paled into insiginifcance given the shitful nature of their day to day lives. They found their happiness in other ways and buried the pain of their ADD or whatever along with the pain of blacking factory or the clerking rooms.
I think there are a number of features of modern life that become "problems" as a luxury of prosperity. I view ADD as one of them. I am not saying that the old ways were better, I mean a 19th century non middle classed life was pretty diabolical, but that socialisation meant that these circumstances just did not appear on the radar as problems. I think the same could be made to work today. Socialisation is the answer to ADD. For proof of this look to an analysis of the incidence of ADD behaviour _as a problem_ in different cultures. In th the pacific islands do they have the same incidence rates? What about Singapore, China, Sudan? Surely a positive variance would suggest that culture is a better treatment than drugs.
"The first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging."
I'll tell you something about the modern world. Our food supply is very sick. We're on very thin ice when it comes to our intakes of vitamins and minerals. Our ratios of intake of minerals to each other is drastically out of kilter. Our intake of poisonous heavy metals is too high. And goodness knows what pesticides do.
I developed ADD and tourettes. Do you know why? Mercury poisoning. These so called 'diseases' caused by 'genes' are really just biologically disturbances caused by our sick environment. When our neurotransmitter regulation is out of kilter, all these things like anorexia, bulimia, depression, ADD etc, can be the result.
The medical profession is an industry. They're after money. One way or another, they're ignoring the real causes of these things and chucking their expensive patented drugs at people because that is the way they make money.
Now don't take my word for it, research it for yourself. The biology behind it is horribly complicated, but it is a MAJOR eye-opener. If someone has ADD/ADHD and / or tourettes, it's a biologically disturbance. Taking decent quantities of every vitamin in sundry plus reducing mercury load made mine decrease by 85% overnight.
Conditions like these and autism are not naturally occuring. The bodies of these individuals have serious trace mineral balance abnormalities. They're usually drastically zinc deficient.
Sorry for the rambling, but I am totally fed up with reading up about these things, seeing that their causes are medical known to a reasonable degree, then seeing over and over people being *abused* by being given medications rather than being treated, and people whose jobs it is to treat these things are completely clueless about the physiological reasons why they come about. My doctor thought I was being moronically silly for thinking mercury is harmful. The neurologist told me I was making things up. The haemotologist told me there was nothing wrong with me. The psychologist was a sociopath who was only after money. None of them had a clue. This is the normal experience with people with such conditions with the medics.
This is a geek website. Think for a moment how corrupt computing is, with all the junk hardware and big software companies and programmers who don't care a less about anything but their coding. Put this in context of the medical industry, and maybe you can understand how the same thing can seep thoroughly through an area of human endeavour which is meant to be caring. Medicine is very corrupt. There are plenty of good doctors and caring scientists out there, but too many of them are not, or even if they do, do not think independently enough to go beyond the finacially-sponsored and socio-politically correct way of looking at things. If you have a form of chronic illness, such as ADHD, depression, autism, tourettes, etc, then read up thoroughly on it and learn how to help yourself - because being thrown medications will only ever partially treat the symptom and never the cause.
And one finds something very unique when it comes to ADD...
First the key points then the question.
Children and adults who "suffer" from Attention Defecate (what ever) can and do successfully concentrate on things they want to. This distinction clearly, in my humble opinion, points to the simple fact that these individuals are searching for something of interest.
Shame of it is to gather their attention, limited uptake narcotics are added to their diets as a control means.
Such effects brings about ample questions of possible evolutionary benefits (yep, I said benefits) such chemistry during human development.
Consider that children mimic, pattern match, as a primary means of developing. As this fascinating process proceeds, with considerable input of our 'fast' society, one can ask, why?
Reading much on the subject I must remind anyone who chooses to re-research the subject matter to consider solutions identified and our societies dependence on 'quick fixes'. I would also want to remind you that reading on the subject is constructed with the prospective that this is a problem.
I'll tell you it is my firm belief that attention issues are a significant benefit. Ask your self this, when you are not feeling well is focusing on your ailment the way to fell better?
Being one who is distracted easily I must admit that I have a bias. So keen I have become to when I am being distracted that I have learned how to move from subject to subject with limited worry of returning to any given subject in the near future.
With all that said I'll give you a suggestion that may help. It helps me but I also have a secondary element that makes life far more entertaining, I am dyslexic. What I have learned to do is document my thoughts. I do so chronologically. It eases the burden of recall and that is a stabilizing factor. It takes time to do, and is interesting in the sense of writing the highlights and some off beat ideas as I encounter them. It also increases my productivity because solutions are for ever present, applying them is often just a moments inspiration, and if one jots it down it can be review in the future.
Such documenting also relives the burden of trying to remember these little moments, freeing the mind to explore for other inspiring "bright shinny objects" to observe.
To make it clear, the bio-feedback mechanism I am describing is simply a pen and paper. By actively taking that pen and jotting down notes of the day's events, moments spent daydreaming is my personal preference, one can return to the subject at hand with only minor interruption. In essence the idea is to retain the distractive quality and manage it effectively by accommodating it's true power.
All the dogs don't have to wag their tails the same way. But those who choose not to are soon displaced by the "majority", often forced to "conform" much to their dismay.
But how does one he
I read all these comments about people not doing well in school, not concentrating on a task. But what is it you would be doing if not sitting quietly?
:)
I mean would you just bounce from book to drawing to a sprint around the house? Is there something that could hold your attention?
And for those of you with Adult ADHD do you find it hard to get into a task now? Like read a memo? Read the first paragraph and bounce off to do something else?
Computers seem like the last thing someone with ADHD needs since there's so much you can do on this one machine.
Any responses are appreciated
-- taking over the world, we are.
(...when I was a child)
Get your child off of it. ADHD is a parental crutch - just be more active with your kids. The last thing you want to do is medicate them into being "good kids" - a child with ADHD can control it - they just need to learn how.
Don't feed your child with that fscking cereal!
Well, I'm French and I'm puzzled about this ADHD stuff. From Slashdot posts and other US mainstream media stories, I gather that ADHD/ADD is a massive problem in the US, everybody knows about it and everyone has suffered it or knows someone who did. My point is that nobody in France knows/talks of this disorder. OK, there may be some researchers/doctors working on it but it's NOT common knowledge. TV doesn't mention it, papers don't either... We don't seem to have ADHD/ADD in France or we don't label it that way. It would be interesting to know if other countries's slashdotters have the same feeling.
Also, if I'm right, I wonder if the point is that we don't have the symptoms or if we just don't label them ADD.
To support the latter, from what I understand of ADD/ADHD symptoms, most people in France would just see bad parenting, spoiled brats, tired kids, "normal" behavior appearing disorderly in an overly PC/conformist society...
But if the former is true, what could explain it? Too many TV channels? Ultra-aggressive marketing/advertising? I read an article last year in a US paper wondering if the US, as a nation, was struck by ADD. Does it make sense?
It would be nice to be sure of anything the way some people are of everything.
Just because there are some horrific software patents out there does not mean all patents are bad.
-jon
It's not just the type of waves, it's also where they occur. A classic ADHD problem is the 'regulator' (the front part of the brain) almost going to sleep when it ought to be helping you decide what to do - as a result you're much more prone to follow impulse decisions instead of keeping to what you were planning to do. With EEG feedback you can 'exercise' that region in relation to others.
;-).
It's not for everyone, but in my (admittedly limited) experience compatibility shows fairly early in the process. My son was at the age of 4 almost instantly able to drive the pacman game for his particular treatment.
A little bit offbeat, if you want evidence of how much the brain resembles a muscle in needing training, try using a calculator for any addition, even below 100, for two weeks. You'll be amazed how hard it is afterwards not to grab for it for even the simplest addition.
As for medication, you could also look at Vaxa (www.vaxa.com), they do a natural treatment. It didn't work for me (and my son didn't like it) but they are genuine when they say you can try it for free. When we told them we found no benefit they simply refunded our costs - no arguments or anything. Recommended (and no, I have no shares in them - it's just rare to see a company do as it says
Insert
Did you doctor explain to you/your daughter that ritalin & friends are clinically proven to cause permanent brain damage?
Get "The Anti-Depressant Fact Book," author Peter Breggin, MD. Also by him, "Your drug may be your problem," "Talking back to prozac," "Talking back to ritalin," and others.
Personally, I had been on several anti-depressants, and a mood stablizer, "neurontin."
The mood stabilizer was supposedly for bipolar disorder - something I'd never even shown a sign of until I'd been on SSRI anti-depressants for some time.
What the mood stabilizer was auctually treating was SSRI induced mania.
I've been off all of these medicines for a few months now, and you know what? I'm getting better. I'm STILL fighting the withdrawl effects from lexapro, but it gets better as time goes.
(jamesh - i'd much rather have contacted you directly, but i can't find an obvious means to - i'll keep looking. you need to know what the above mentioned book (esp. "talking back to ritalin") have to say.)
While I may not be able to speak to the drug pros/cons of someone with ADD, and I may not have direct evidence of neural feedback being useful in curing or helping someone with ADD, I can say that there is something to be said for neural feedback...
Case in point:
3 years ago I tore my ACL (knee ligament). After having surgery (while awake, they gave me an epideral to numb me up) I was sitting in the 'phase 1' recovery room on a bed, facing a wall with an EKG monitoring device. Quite boring I can assure you, as I had to sit in this incredibly cold hospital room for about an hour all by myself while I 'recovered'. Mind you, I was fully awake and aware at this time. Anyways, to pass the time I started 'playing' with the EKG machine. I would concentrate on the heartbeat monitor, and using nothing more than breathing and mental exercise I was able to somewhat control my heartrate. I could keep it at a steady 64 bpm, lower it to 45 bpm, or increase it to 75 bpm, all using the feedback of where my heartrate was at as displayed by the EKG. While this was more of a mental 'keep myself preoccupied' exercise, I was indeed able to alter my body's operation of an automatic function (my heart beating) using my mind alone. Just an example of how I think neural feedback *could* be useful in your daughter's case.
Penicillin is bread mold, don't give it to sick people. I realize why it works for infections but that's no reason to use it. I'm 27 and I've had every reason to believe that I've suffered from infections before, and I think I still do occasionally, but my immune system got through without drugs.
TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.
All those who purport that ADD/ADHD are flamers looking to have their 1/2 second of fame here. That being said, I am a 31 yr old male who was continuously having issues throughout life. Always in trouble at school, not able to concentrate. Since I was 4, I have heard the standard, "He's so intelligent, if he could just focus his energy." Last year, after losing my job and during a seriously introspective period, I sought medical help. I am now on Strattera and have found that the impulsiveness, inability to stay focused and other problmes that have plagued me for all of life are gone. If you are able to try Strattera for your daughter, she might have success like I have.
Having a child with autism, I've been through similar quandaries. There are dozens of therapies out there, some promising, some odd, some downright wacky, and for every single one of them you'll find people who say it's the only way that works and others who say they flushed thousands of bucks and got nothing. Ya gotta Just Keep Trying Stuff until you find what helps best, because different people respond differently to the same therapy. Sometimes you can see that some people are more promising candidates for a given therapy, and that your child is one of the less likely candidates, and then you shove that therapy down the list and give priority to something that seems a better match.
On medication: we've tried a lot, and sometimes we gave up one that "worked" but in the wrong way. If a given med. seems to be doing harm, there's probably another one that won't do that.
On the "disease model": well, a broken leg is not a disease but it does represent a disability, and although you probably won't die from a simple break you might find that you live better for having had it tended.
Education ought to be about equipping our children with tools they can use to manage themselves and their environment. One tool that comes naturally to most of us is the ability to decide what's important and stick to it. We sometimes call it self-discipline. A person who chooses to "let himself go" is perfectly okay with me (in the right circumstances), but one who *cannot* choose not to let go, when it's important, is disabled and might appreciate being given help in getting command of this faculty.
Yeah, some schools are more like robot-factories, but even the good ones require the *ability* to conform when it's appropriate. My kids can be as unconventional as they wish, when it doesn't cost them more than they ought to pay, but I want them to have the power to choose the behaviors that best get them what they want out of life, and sometimes they need help.
Anyway it sounds like Neural Feedback Training could work in some folks with ADHD. Whether it works *well*, and what else it does, and whether it's worth the money, are questions that I think will only be answered by experience.
For those that have difficulty relating to the ADD experience, imagine this:
I'm making sweet love with your SO. I know I have trouble focusing so you do everything in your power to concentrate on the task at hand. It feels really good, so smooth, so silky. It's just like that really good cheesecake you had in a restaurant the other week. And raspberry sauce. The cake had this wonderful raspberry sauce that you just couldn't get enough of. And, oh gods! The glob of real whipped cream. It was a pretty good restaurant all round actually.
Eh? Oh right, I was making love. Here we go again. Soft silky pleasure, the gyrations, oh yeah you're really getting into it now. A steadily, cresendoing rhythm, just like when I did the chicken dance at an octoberfest when I was little. I hated that dance when I was older, but I couldn't get enough of it when I was young. Same with the macarena. It was ok the first time, when I didn't know any better. But never again.
Shit! Ok, I got it back before I lost it completely. Get back into a steady rhythm. Focus on the physical sensations. Ok, I'm doing good. I'm allowing myself to get lost in the physical sensations. I did remember to finish that report, right? Yeah, I did. Mmmm, physical sensations.
All right, we're making progress here! We're climbing... climbing... getting near the peak! All... the... world sings in tune on a spring afternoon as we're poisoning pigeons in the park! Every Sunday you'll see, my sweetheart and me, as we poison the pigeons in the park!
It's usually around this point I groan and go play a video game.
Roland
After having bad reactions to both Adderall and the Concerta, I went looking for alternate treatments. I have a very low tolerance for stimulants, and didn't sleep for days on the drugs. Looking back I handled the problem myself with high doses of caffeine in high school, but had quit a few years ago and my symptoms of ADD had progressed to the point that my wife noticed them.
My doctor was very happy that I was drug free when I began my eeg feedback treatments. Some parents are reluctant to discontinue the drugs because they are what keeps the kids in control, but its bad to fix the problem from both angles. How can you tell what is actually working?
I was very skeptical when I began, and was asked if I noticed any improvement after every treatment. I tried very hard not to just report every good thing that happened that may or may not have been the result of the eeg.
The part you want: the results... The doctor started looking for significant improvements after the 20th treatment of 30 minutes twice a week. But, as I was starting treatment as a 28 year old adult and not a 14 year old child, I ended up needing more treatments. Around treatment 25 we did a review of my symptoms and we noticed that my right brain disorders were under control but my left brain issues needed more work, so instead of 15 minutes each half we skewed it to 21 minutes left and 9 minutes right. Things got a lot better, but I was having serious difficult waking in the morning, so we went back to 15-15.
The treatments themselves are kinda boring. The 'videogames' are only interactive on a stop-go system. ADD people have not enough 'calmly focused' brain activity and sometimes too much 'hyperfocused', so when the eeg levels are proper the game progresses, but yawn/fall asleep or get too excited and wiggle around and the game stops. My favorites were Space Race and Chomper.
When I was determining how real this was, I felt better that my health insurance paid for 92% of the treatments, so my per treatment cost was around $8.
I have noticed that some symptoms have improved, but it is not a fix everything solution. Lifestyle changes have helped a lot, too. My palm pilot helps me remember to do things when I hyperfocus on other tasks and forget to go to meetings, etc. ADD sufferers thrive in routine, so I make sure I have a checklist of things I do every day before I leave the house. I drink one glass of sweet tea with caffeine in the morning with breakfast, but that is the most stimulant I take. The combination of things seems to have helped make me less annoying to others. I have been myself my whole life and understand what its like. Others don't understand.
My EEG doctor has had success treating many different disorders, like PTSD and chronic migranes. I would encourage people to check out the web sites already mentioned and try it. It may or may not work for you, but its not a life-sentence to drugs and you can quit the treatments if they aren't working. I would be patient, though, and not look for an overnight total solution.
With over 600 comments posted before I ever saw this story, I doubt that anybody will ever read my comments, but I'll post them anyway. I am currently doing Neurofeedback (and curious what they charge where the original poster lives, as I don't consider the treatments especially expensive).
After just *THREE* treatments, I saw a definite improvement in anger management. My concentration and organization skills are improved. Maybe it is just new-millenium snake-oil, but it is snake-oil that works!
We originally tried it for my teenager daughters explosive temperment. Things are not "all perfect" now, but compared to what we had before she started, I'll take it. There were times when her anger was so out-of-control that my wife and I feared for our safety. Not anymore.
I just wrote a paper on ADHD treatment options for an education class that I was taking. While I am probably going to regret this, you can pull the paper from this location:
ADHD Treatment Strategies
The paper was only a five-pager so is not terribly in-depth, but it does talk about neuro-feedback treatment and has a bibliography with a couple of articles that go into more depth and that you could use to find out more information. I hope that this helps.
Good luck!
tom
If you read no further, read this: Do the Neurofeedback training, you will not be disappointed. For information see: www.TheBrainHaven.com, To find a trainer see: www.eegdirectory.com Try to find a trainer using NeuroCare Pro but if you can't, then find someone you like. My son had this training. My son, 14, is on no medication and is a B student. Likes school. He does his homework without being asked and finishes it in a normal amount of time. (no more 3 hour homework sessions for 20 minutes worth of homework). He remembers his assignments and is able to get them from school to home and back again. He pays attention in class. He was completely unable to do any of this before Neurofeedback training, even while on any number of different medications. He used to constantly fidget and was always bothered by something in his environment. No more. First, lets be clear about what a diagnosis of ADD or ADHD means. It means that a person has a set of symptoms that cannot be reliably attributed to some other disorder. Period. It is a non-disease. That is why there are so many different drugs out there that a doctor will be willing to try for ADD or ADHD (stimulants, tranquilizers, anti-psychotics, anti-depressants, you name it) because frankly, every person is different. I'm not anti-drug, but the side effects can be devastating as you found out. It does not suprise me that your child developed tourettes type symptoms from taking a drug for ADHD. This is why: ADD and ADHD are signs that what is really a perfectly good brain, is not operating very efficiently. The brain is unstable, like a car that needs a tune-up. The brain gets "stuck" in non-efficient operating modes. Tourettes symptoms, too, are due to a brain that has trouble with resilency and flexibility and where the communication within the brain is mis-timed. What does resilency mean? It means that someone can move into a state and stay there without getting pushed into some other undesirable state. That means I can focus without getting distracted, or I can relax without getting an anxiety attack, or I can go to sleep and stay asleep. That I can become upset without a migraine. Flexibility means being able to move between states easily. I can go from playing at recess (for those schools that still have recess) to concentrating on a lesson. I can go from playing a video game to eating dinner without falling into a black pit of anger or acting like a zombie. I can go from wakefulness to sleep or sleeping to wakefulness. I can easily move from being upset to realizing that whatever upset me is really not a big deal. I can be irritated by a noise (a smell, a thought, a light, a tag in my underwear, the seam on my socks) and forget about it immediately (oh God wouldn't that be Great?) So what does all this have to do with Neurofeedback training? Neurofeedback training teaches the brain to be more resilient and more flexible. As the brain becomes more resilient and flexible, symptoms of instability disappear. The person is able to focus, anxiety disappears, irritability and anger disappear, suddenly the person is able to organize their lives, sleep is normal and restful, little cahnges or irritations stop being a big deal. I am not kidding. It is almost like a miracle.
Prescribing a child drugs without exhausting every other option is an issue of responsibility. Its about the parents and the teachers not taking proper responsibility for the child.
"It couldn't be my parenting." "There couldn't be anything wrong with my teaching."
"There must be something wrong with Billy that ONLY drugs can help."
People, you discourage your kids from taking drugs, not encourage it.
Get your kids off of video games, tv, sugar / candies, white bread, etc...
Children like/need boundraries. Be firm but loving. Don't give in to every little demand.
Change your teaching style. If "20% of kids have ADD" then perhaps we could have seperate class rooms / schools in which we accomidate their thinking patterns.
If a child is unable to concentrate on school check for skipped gradients, misunderstood words. Also, sometimes if you are learning about tracters it might help to go and actually see one!
Thats my rant.
Neurofeedback training is no more like an experiment on a brain than exercise is like experimenting on our muscles
I suspect that the effect isn't necessarily due to the elimination of preservatives and dyes, but rather due to the fact that the kids (through the elimination of preservatives and dyes) are now eating a balanced, healthy diet. Do you have a citation for the study?
This phenomenon isn't limited to children. Look around you at the office. How many people are grumpy or sleepy without their daily hit of caffeine? Falling asleep at their desks because they need frequent hits of concentrated sucrose? (Cola, chocolate, soda, etc.) Moderating the use of caffeine products and a healthy diet that maintains a more stable blood sugar level often improves the concentration and mood of adults, in addition to reducing their risk of diabetes and a number of other disorders. Snacks and treats don't have to be forbidden, just limited to reasonable levels.
Think about it; we ingest A LOT of chemicals in our diet these days, much more than a few generations ago, when this problem was non-existent.
Diagnosis of it was nonexistant, I don't know that the phenomenon was. Carpal tunnel syndrome and other repetitive strain injuries existed for years in textile and factory workers, but nobody paid any attention to the phenomenon until it began to affect white-collar office workers. Similarly, ADHD children were simply identified as "bad kids", "juvenile delinquents", or "retarded". Although we've come too far the other way now--it's too easy to label a child as ADHD, and the disorder is definitely overdiagnosed and overmedicated--it is unfair to those genuinely affected to deny its existence.
~Idarubicin
"I couldn't sit still in class, I couldn't focus, I couldn't pay attention, I couldn't learn. What good is intelligence if one can't manage to focus long enough to learn how to read and write? What good is intelligence or brilliance without an educational foundation and the ability to focus and employ one's abilities?"
It breaks my heart when I read something like this. Of course you could not do these things. Normal humans are not meant to at this age. Sitting still in class is the last thing that we should impell our children to do.
The strength of a school such as Sudbury Valley School ( http://www.sudval.org/ ) is that children are given an environment in which they can learn how to control themselves, and to their own time table. Dr. Daiel Greenberg himself remarked that his son may well have been put on Ritalin if he had gone to a "normal" school bcause the boy was so full of life.
Why are we SO insistant on caging our children at the very age they need to be free to explore?
Those who are interested should consider reading "Free at Last" by D. Greenberg. It may enlightn a facet of out Industrial Society not previously considered.
a
That is exactly right. But it poses an interesting problem. When then, if ever, should we start kids in school? The reason we start kids in school so early is that it "works"; and by works I mean works for adult society. Perhaps there should be more play and recreation periods throughout the day for the younger grades. I have heard of some schools eliminating recess periods for the younger grades (even kindergarten!). They then wonder why test scores go down. Their solution is to eliminate more recess time until there is done. This is horrid and only exacerbates the problem they have created.
I read the books, I pulled my history [thanks mom, for caring] and I was diagnosed in Grade School, but this was several years before anyone had heard of ad (they thought it was an auditory processing problem), and so - a couple of years ago went to the doctor [one I heard was supposed to be one of the best in the state]. Whom I disaffectionately began to call my drug dealer. Why? Because he kept trying drugs on me. No tests, no evaluations, nothing but pretty much taking my word for it - I believed (believe?) I have it so he kept trying to find the right balance of drugs to correct for it.
Understand, some of the drugs helped, but I hate taking drugs (of any kind) and this felt a lot like going to an eye doctor who kept having you try on used pairs of glasses to see which ones helped you see better.
How can one go about getting a proper diagnosis? Is there such a thing? Are there verifiable tests (blood chemistry or otherwise) that would help narrow down just exactly what it is you need?
Is this what they did to your daughter?
Sgt_Jake
Newer approaches using NeuroCare Pro and the CARE approach (Comprehensive Adaptive Renormalization of EEG) do not have these side effects becaue they do not push the person into a particular state. Rather they promote stability that allows desirable states to be accessed and maintained. see www.TheBrainHaven.com
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
http://www.adhdfraud.com/
After living with undiagnosed ADD for 36 years I started taking ritalin. I went from having an attention span of 10 seconds or less to being able to focus on a project for an hour or more at a time. 36 years of feeling stupid, of compensating, of making mistakes, of being unreliable. 36 years of thinking of myself as selfish and lazy and dumb as dirt. Ritalin isn't perfect, but it helps enough that I'm still taking it 8 years later.
Continuing research indicates that ADD and ADHD have a clearly defined organic cause (google for it). Once, depression was also considered a purely 'psychological' problem and is now known to have an organic basis and be treatable with medications.
ADD is a subtle and relatively new condition, and the treatments are evolving rapidly. If you were treated, or mistreated, 5 or 10 years ago, that's too bad. Nevertheless, today the understanding andctreatments available are different and improving rapidly. You should not hold your personal history out as a reason to avoid an entire area of diagnosis and treatment to someone. Correctly treating ADD can be enormously beneficial; a truely life changing event.
Treating my ADD has worked for me. Some argue that what is called ADD is a 'natural' condition and treating it is a mistake. Perhaps, but all I can say is that my life has vastly improved since I started taking Ritalin. I may not be who nature intended me to be, but I am who I have consciously choosen to be.
As new treatments become available I will try them, and use what works for me.
If you are expressing your opinion without bothering to research the matter, well, you have that right, but answer me this: If you had to bear the responsibility for the results of your words would you choose them more carefully?
FYI folks. Ritalin is no longer the preferred drug for ADD/ADHD. Adderoll is. Very effective, without the crash and burn effect that happens when ritalin stops working. And you still feel like yourself.
Speaking from experience (second-hand, from my wife), that wasn't all that long ago in some smaller towns here in the UK. She went through almost a year of hell, and eventually started producing near-perfect "mirror writing" with her right hand (never mind regularly missing doors she thought she was heading for OK, and thus walking into walls).
Eventually one of the teachers with a clue actually listened to her parents, figuring that they might know something about their child and the effects this was having on her as opposed to believing that parents couldn't possibly know anything about how to educate children.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, as soon as she was moved to a clas where she was allowed to write left-handed, the problems vanished inside a couple of weeks.
"MS Windows is like the Force. It has a Dark Side, a Light... damn, there goes that analogy!"
Yes, we *are* talking about giving children speed, and it is by no means an unjustified decision. It has long been suspected that ADHD symptoms are the result of defects in dopaminergic pathways, most likely reduced levels of dopamine production. Dopamine is a very important neurotransmitter, you can Google for yourself if you want more details. Ritalin (methylphenidate) acts by blocking dopamine reuptake, effectively increasing its concentration in the brain tissues.
Considering that deficiencies in dopamine levels are also strongly associated with Parkinson's Disease, would you want your child, if positively diagnosed with a rather severe case of ADHD to grow up not having had at least the opportunity to feel the difference the medication could make (I know they're unrelated, but the mention of Parkinson's makes for good drama)?
Click here. I found that page to be both informative and amusing, because I wasn't able to finish reading that first paragraph. Really. I was diagnosed in my late twenties after a lifetime of debilitating "memory problems" that effectively killed a career in molecular biology labwork that I started when I was fourteen, and now...
...now I look back and really wish my parents had at least considered treatments, because I am on ritalin now and am suddenly finding myself able to do the things I had always wanted to do. I can keep tabs on multiple sets of data, I can perform multiple tasks independently, I can remember to turn the burners off when I'm done, only now I'm fucking fifteen years behind and extremely saddened by the fact that I had not had this opportunity earlier.
Please understand. It's not haphazard prescription of amphetamines for the purposes of taming children, it's giving children a chance to function in ways that benefit them.
ADHD is by far the most overrated and overdiagnosed 'disease,condition,malady,takeyerpick' to classify kids/adults that are more than likely just suffering from the foods they ingest. I'm not saying ADD/ADHD doesn't exist, I was diagnosed in my 20's with AADD, did the Ritalin dance, and am now just coping with it, no drugs. (although i have fond memories of giving out doses to non-ADD people and watching them ZOOM!) But think about it, ask your parents, did these afflictions manifest themselves back when they were kids? Of course, they had the class clown, but every other kid in school needing to be restrained? Nope, not even close. Take a good look at what is in what you eat/drink. Go on, use your grey matter and if you don't know what an ingredient is, look it up. Kids are being infused with partially and fully hydrogenated oils, High Fructose Corn Syrup is in EVERYTHING, and what the hell is Calcium Stearoyl Lactylate, and WTF is it doing in my bread crumbs? C'mon, how hard is it to make 'good' bread crumbs. Since I read that label, I now make our own breadcrumbs. 10 Slices of Merita D'Italiano thrown into a processor with whatever spices you fancy, baked for 5 minutes on 275. Will cover about two whole chicken breasts. Better than anything by Vigo or Pepperidge Farm. Take that tub of margarine or Shedd's spread, open it and leave it in the corner of you garage for, oh, say a month. NOTHING will touch it, except for grass clippings and dust, no roach/ant/bugaboo/rat/mouse. No nutrional value whatsoever, this is hydrogenated oil. And this is what is in ALL of your snacks. It's cheaper for the manufacturer to use this crap than to use 'real' ingredients. The shelf life is longer. Of course it is, it's made of freaking plastic. Anyway, the whole point of this rant was to get you to look at what you're doing to your body day in and day out, and mostly not even realizing it. Stop eating processed foods (except for cereals and breads, but continue to check their labels), Make your own damn dinner, use vegetables, chicken, pork, FISH, lot's of Olive Oil, lots of capascin-loaded peppers. These behavioural afflictions didn't exist or existed to a much smaller degree 60 years ago. Remember Mom or Grandma always cooking in the kitchen??? (don't even think of flaming me for being sexist, I'm a 34 yr old Male WASP that does ALL the cooking in our house, I wouldn't trust my wife to boil water) Watch what you eat and what you force your kids to eat.
Wait, What?
Skipping grades in school is not a solution. That just leads to the student becoming a misfit. You'll still be smarter than everyone, but you won't be as advanced socially, and you'll be smaller. What a deal! Even if you are on, say a 5th grade level while in the 3rd grade, do you think you wouldn't be bored to death sitting in a 5th grade class, going AT THE SAME PACE you were in 3rd grade?
The only times that I was happy in school were the times when I was with peers that we also advanced. When I was in 5th and 6th grade we had a collector program that took the more advanced kids from each school in the district and had them all go to the same class. This was incredible. For the first time I wasn't annoying the teacher by being too far ahead. Also, we covered material at a pace that could maintain everyone's interest.
Then junior high came with an odd mix of taking classes with people two years older than you, "honors" classes, and normal classes. Let me tell you how much fun it is to sit in a math class as a 7th grader and have the 9th grader sitting behind you threaten you for answers. Plus we weren't moving at a pace that was fast enough for me. I could do the assingments before we were done with class. I never felt like I was being pushed or stretched in junior high or high school. I could keep up (and even excel) with minimal effort.
Public schools do not want to challenge their students. They want to serve as many students as they can as efficiently as possible. This works ok for most students, though they could probably stand to be challenged more than they are, but it works poorly for those at the extremes. The problem is that schools will have all sorts of programs for remedial students but don't seem to put the same sort of effort into programs for those that are advanced. As an example, my high school ran out of math classes for me and several other students. There was nothing for me to take my senior year. I went from taking many classes with people two years older than me to taking them with people in the same grade, and basically ran out. I was bored out of my mind my senior year, though it was nice socially to be with people my age.
After 5th and 6th grade, the only time that I felt like I belonged socially and intellectually during my schooling was at Stanford. There I was simply normal. Classes were often challenging and required work. I wasn't racing ahead of my peers and wasn't viewed as an oddity. It was a wonderful experience. I wish I could have experienced more of that before my university studies.
Skipping grades makes you an oddity. Who wants to be the freak? Raise your hand. There are plenty of smart kids in public schools, they are just isolated. Programs that bring them together and challenge them are possible, but for the most part administrators are too worried about other things to care.
Lasers Controlled Games!
Has anyone mentioned Strattera, the non-stimulant drug for ADHD? This drug is doing quite well for ADHD patients, without stimulant side effects, easy to switch to, no "weaning" period to drop it..Ask your pediatrician about it. My daughter, who is bipolar, was first diagnosed with ADHD, and I would've preferred she be given this drug instead of Ritalin or Adderall if it would've been available at the time.
I've seen non drugged dumb, home schooled, "attention deficit' kids that exceed many public schools standards when tested. It's all about time, attention to the child (yes teachers are deficit in this) and behavior modification.
http://www.nfgcc.org/64.htm
When Christopher Gore tried to enlist in the Coast Guard in 1994, he was rejected for having a history of drug use.
But the clean-cut Dillard, Ga. youth was no junkie. The drug he had used was Ritalin, a medication prescribed for attention-deficit disorders.
Scores of young men and women across the country are learning that the Ritalin they took as teenagers is stopping them from serving their country or starting a military career.
"I was shocked and disappointed," said Gore, 22, who is about to start a job selling radio ads. "I didn't expect [Ritalin] to affect my future like this."
http://www.nfgcc.org/
"The National Foundation for Gifted and Creative Children was formed over 30 years ago. The main goal of The Foundation was to get much needed information to the parents of gifted children. The need is still there. Many gifted children are being destroyed in the public education system. Many gifted children are being falsely labeled with ADD as well as ADHD. And many parents are unaware their child/children could be potentially gifted. The Foundation's main objective is to reach out and help these precious children. The National Foundation for Gifted and Creative Children is a non-profit, non-sectarian, organization. Please feel free to download the complete packet of information provided by the Foundation as well as the informative news articles."
I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
I did quite a bit of research on the subject after a friend of mine turnned up with REAL ADD having never been dignosed untill she was an adult.
This after dealing with countless cases of false ADD in children. The diffrences between adult dignosed ADD and child dignosed ADD were so dramatic I could only conclude the dignosis was being aimmed at dignosing kids with unrelated disorders as being ADD.
The problem is that ADD/ADHD is probably the worst dignosed disease in history to the point of industry wide malpractace.
In the 1970s and 80s there were three major influcens in the education system.
1. Open education: This was a scientificly proven method for teaching kids. It had effectively resolved learning problems as they showed up.
2. Specal Education: This is the governmently funded program for dealing with the same learning problems.
3. The education system was in a "money grab" mode that would destory the education system.
4. School board members padding paychecks etc etc. Typical burrocratic BS.
The method: Some teachers would watch for kids who could be set up as ADD (instead of helping them). This became such a practace it had a name "throw away kids".
The kid would have some problem. Be it a problem understanding the matereal or a psycological disorder or maybe the kid had a real learning problem.
However the education system isn't where you address psycological disorders. Minnor issues can be handled in the normal classroom and real learning problems can be addressed in open education.
However ADD kids automaticly go to specal education and for every specal education kid a school gets the federal government gives them more money.
But first the kid has to be dignosed ADD and a teacher can't do that.
Once the teacher "recognises" the disorder they recomend the kid be sent off to an ADD specalist.
The problem here is that ADD specalists are unusually motivated to "find" the illness. Even more so when the illness is a rare disorder.
(Eather they find the disorder in the kids the schools were sending them or they go out of practace).
The solution: Send your kid to an ADD specallist who specalises in ADULT ADD not childhood ADD.
Many kids had clear and obveous signs of ADD as children but were passed over becouse they didn't demonstrate the symptoms the teachers and ADD experts were looking for.
Later on adult ADD experts had no problems recognising the very real disorder to spite a lifetime of learning to adjust for this sereous nurrological disorder.
While the education system no longer relys on ADD for additional funding and ritalin is no longer the only cure for the disorder. The damage is done.
Two decades of misdignosis and looking for the wrong signs has infected the system.
If this girl actually has ADD her parents should consider one of the other medications on the market.
Based purely on the parents discription of things I'd like to suggest that she may have ADD and annother disorder. I've never known grunting to be a side effect of ritalin.
I realise there will be some reasonable sceptisim so I'll provide the simplist of proof.
An entire industry looking for adult ADD in people who were NEVER dignost as a child yet suffered classic symptoms sense childhood. Maybe even told they didn't have the disorder. Why? Becouse they didn't have the symptoms they were looking for. Symptoms of OTHER unreated disorders rather than the actual symptoms of ADD.
And..
Whole groups of people who were dignosed with ADD with out having any actual symptoms now declaring that ADD dose not exist.
And now we have a world of people who will stand strong declaring ADD dose exist and a group who clames ADD dose not exist.
The truth as always lay somewhere between.
ADD exists it's just not what they are treating.
I don't actually exist.
They tried to diagnose my son with this in K grade. I immediately pulled him out of school and took him for a second option. Every doctor i took him to said " Jesus he is just 5 and may need more time to adjust ". Since then I put him into a Goddard school who is working with him in a Pre-K setting. He is adjusting well and the ADHD type behavior is subsiding.
Drugs like Riddilin have also been found to increase the chances of suicide in children as well.
I suggest taking him to a MD or a head shrinker for a second opinion. Schools today expect to roll out drones and nothing more. If a child wants to be a bit out of line or resistant to their teaching methods they immediately label them. They do not want children to be children anymore but adults at a early age.
What you're talking about is what used to be called photic stimulation with EEG biofeedback, the products were called light and sound mind machines with EEG biofeedback.
... any medical claims made for this technology should be considered very dubious.
They were briefly huge in the New Age community, in particular, the Shaman by AlphaLabs, which would do just what you say at what was, for such equipment 10 years ago, a very reasonable price, about $550.
I've been interested in the technology for years, and spent a couple of years selling them for religious use (meditation aids) and entertainment (for the entoptic hallucinations generated by mind machine usage). I also went out of my way to keep up with the research, as I rather highly value my honesty and objectivity. I used to edit the web's Mind Machine FAQ, you'll see me listed there under my real name, J. Brad Hicks.
Let me tell you right now that as a man who used to sell these, and still would if the business model were right, because I do actually like the technology
The industry hesitantly touts a handful of university studies. I say "hesitantly" because any manufacturer who gets caught making an actual medical claim for one gets shut down, hard, by the FTC or the FDA, for making unverified medical claims. The few studies there are all involve very small samples, generally have not produced reproducable results, have very questionable methodology (I have yet to see one that even tried to test for the placebo effect), and have never to my knowledge been published in a peer-reviewed journal.
In short, I think it's a quack nostrum, a pseudo-scientific medical fraud, right up there with magentic mattress pads and radionic "bio-circuits."
Now, I had a handful of customers who insisted on wanting to try this technology for medical reasons of various kinds, and yes, ADHD was frequently mentioned. After I told them all of the above, what I told them was to ask their doctor, and if the physician agrees to the experiment, then it might be worth trying, but only under a doctor's supervision, and never as a substitute for actual medical treatment.
I was one of the first patients of the Drake Institute in LA 10 years ago, and the biofeedback therapy helped more than any medication had before it. As a quick summary, I'd been on Ritalin, Dexadrine, Desoxyn (that's meth to everyone playing along at home. It helped better than any of the other medications but created too many side effects to be worth it), Wellbutrin, Elavil, Caffeine, and a few others I'm forgetting. I skipped Sialert (sp?) because I didn't want to have blood tests every six months to make sure my liver wasn't falling out.
Through the use of videogame-like feedback (which was perfect since I'd spent my entire childhood playing videogames), I was able to train myself to put my brain in different "states", so not only could I increase my concentration at will by putting myself in a "beta state", but I could also increase my creativity by putting myself in an increased-ADD "theta state", and alleviate my chronic insomnia by putting myself in an increased "delta state".
Now, 10 years later, the ability has faded quite a bit, but it's also become more natural and automatic, such that at this point I'm concentrating better than I did on any of the medications (except sweet, sweet desoxyn, but that doesn't really help ADD as much as it makes you an unstoppable working machine). A quick refresher course would probably help a lot at this point, which is why I've been looking off and on for a cheap home version, but haven't really found one yet.
So, put me in the "thumbs up" category.
"I think this hits at the heart of the problem, and the real reason such drugs are being overused nowadays: 5 year olds are supposed to be overactive."
That's true...but you must remember...if you do not have ADD or ADHD stimulant drugs like Ritalin, Concerta, etc... Will have NO CALMING AFFECT! In fact they will have a severe and opposite reaction. If you thought your 5 year old was a speed freak w/out the Ritalin wait till he takes it. Amphetamines affect normal ppl like you would excpect, they speed them up. AD(H)D ppl will calm down when given amphetamines.
"Helping to keep you two steps ahead of the Thought Police!"
I am ADD/ADHD. My son is too.
The first thing to look it is diet and vitamin/mineral deficience.
My son went from straight Fs to a's and b's, in under a month, simply with:
Cutting out artificial colors and flavors
getting rid of most artificial preservatives (bread is still an issue)
giving him choline, lecithin, calcium, zinc, time release B complex, and vitamin C.
Seriously.. before going on drugs, before any of that other stuff, try a dietary change
The difference is not as "fast" as Ritalin. But what it DOES do is give people something they can use their entire life. As an adult with ADD I can tell you it does NOT just "stop" when ritalin stops working.
By teaching a child how to control it through watching what they eat, you A) give them the power to control it for life, and B) teach them to work within their natural brain, rather than supressing natural brain activity until they hit their mid teens.
Take a look at how many "good kids" who suddenly go shoot up schools, get involved in violent situations, or commit suicide "just got off ritalin".
Here.. read Dr. Lendon Smith's take on the situation:
(This works.. I and my child are living proof!)
http://www.smithsez.com/ADHDandADD.html
Maeryk
Feminine Protection? What is that? A chartreuse flame thrower?
I just went through a very long rant on the subject responding to someone who declared with out a doupt ADD was fiction.
Others here use the words "over dignosed" and such.
The reality isn't that easy.
ADD is for real and many people with this very sereous disorder go suffering there whole life with out proper treatment.
At the same time whole groups of kids are being dignosed who have absolutly no symptoms.
There is much to say on the subject so I'll simplify the whole issue.
Schools and teachers have a certan agenda to get certen kinds of kids on ritalin. Kids with ADD aren't included in that agenda.
The dignosis rate is probably about right it just so happends that for every kid who is dignised with ADD and dosen't have it there is a kid who dose have it and isn't receaving treatment.
We are learning more about ADD as time moves on. Better dignostic tools etc help identify those who truely have the disorder.
Untill then it's best to say if the medication is working it's probably true if it isn't seek a second opinion.
Also if you do have problems and are told your NOT ADD get a second opinion. You may have it and just not fit into the other catagorys that get called ADD.
I don't actually exist.
It is from research I did a few years back when I was diagnosed with ADD
- 1 hour of vigourous(ie not dodge ball ) exercise every day improved symptoms of ADHD in children and helped reduce the use of drugs
dexadrine used to be used for ADHD before ritalin. It is order of magnitudes cheaper and some people find it has less unpleasant side effects. Ritalin was invented to make money not to fill a void.
some people well with dmae supplements, b vitamin supplements, and/or piracetam in lieu of stimulants
Some people think ADHD kids have trouble absorbing some nutrients they need and/or have food allergies. Some people claim better nutrition and supplementation help. YMMV
Good Luck
Steve
I could finally focus in class, and my mother wasn't being driven crazy by an overactive 5 year old.
That's part of the problem right there. Before the invention of ADHD and Ritalin, there was no such thing as an overactive 5 year old. There's nothing abnormal about a 5 year old being active! Parents just can't cope with it so they pump their poor children full of drugs. I truly feel sorry for you.
Almost certainly that would have been the "Feingold diet". See http://www.feingold.org/ for information ando pics/ feingold.html for a contrary viewpoint on its efficacy.
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedT
My analyst told me My comment has .
That I was right out of my head too few
The way he described it characters per
He said I'd be better dead than alive line
I didn't listen to his jive (currently
I knew all along (18.5). Lameness
That he was all wrong filter
And I knew that he thought encountered.
I was crazy but I'm not Post aborted!
don't know Reason: Please
use fewer 'junk'
My analyst told me characters.
That I was right out of my head
He said I need treatment
But I'm not that easily led
He said I was the type
That was most inclined
When out of his sight
To be out of my mind
And he thought I was nuts
No more ifs or ands or buts
They say as a child
I appeared a little bit wild
With all my crazy ideas
But I knew what was happening
I knew I was a genius...
What's so strange when you know
That you're a wizard at three
I knew that this was meant to be
Now I heard little children
Were supposed to sleep tight
That's why I got into the vodka one night
My parents got frantic
Didn't know what to do
But I saw some crazy scenes
Before I came to
Now do you think I was crazy
I may have been only three
But I was swinging
They all laugh at angry young men
They all laughed at Edison
And also at Einstein
So why should I be sorry
If they just couldn't understand
The idiomatic logic
That went on in my head
I had a brain
It was insane
Oh they used to laugh at me
When I refused to ride
On those double decker buses
All because there was no driver on the top
My analyst told me
That I was right out of my head
But I said dear doctor
I think that it's you instead
Because I, I got a thing
That's unique and new
To prove it I'll have
The last laugh on you
'Cause instead of one head
I got two
And you know two heads are better than one.
Joni Mitchell - Twisted
This group had an interesting display in the County building here in Chicago last week. They are quite critical of the entire phychiatric process throughout history(as most disorders are classified by a show of hands at a conference).
They also claim that a lot of children's behavioral problems can be traced back to actual physical ailments (allergies, diet, etc.)
Here's there take on ADHD.
http://www.cchr.org/issues/adhd/index.htm
I tend to agree on some levels with the parent poster, but I do feel strongly that other solutions should be researched.
I am realizing now as an adult that I exhibited just about every symptom of ADHD as a child, and by reading many of the posts in this forum I now have a better understanding of how other people have dealt with the issues of childhood ADHD.
I constantly felt bored with most subjects, and really wanted a challenge. I was allowed to skip the 1st grade because the teachers at the time realized what was going on. The problem was that two years later I was held back a grade because of the symptoms of ADHD. It is frustrating to have this type of mental feature, as most of the material was too easy, and I wanted to learn "new and cool" stuff. The problem was that I really couldn't control what was "new and cool"... My mind decided without my help, thus I would excel at some things, and lose concentration on others.
The problem nowadays is that we have drugs like Ritalin (et al) that allow the kid to concentrate, but don't allow the kid to express the other wonderful features of ADHD, the good ones. I think that the techniques mentioned by the thread owner might actually be a good thing, as it would help the child to control the ADHD instead of just suppressing it.
Let me explain why:
My case is a bit different from many others, as in addition to the concentration problems, I had (still have) strange mental and physical compulsions that I've never had diagnosed. It causes me to have strange ticks and to make strange sounds occasionally. As I've grown older I've learned to control these weird impulses so that they are now unnoticeable.
I find that these impulses become most apparent when my mind is most active, when I am excited about something, or when I am around other people with the same 'disorder'. However, by excercising my mental muscles, I am able to overcome the (extremely) strong impulses to twitch, to make a whistling sound, etc... It still comes out sometimes, but it is much, much less noticeable and I do not feel at all uncomfortable going to any type of social encounter.
Now I've also found that many of the mental tricks I employ to control these 'impulses' also work for the symptoms of ADHD. I am now returning to college studying advanced mathematics and physics, and can easily sit through lectures, and do all of my homework. It is tough sometimes, especially when I'm physically tired (sleep is SO important!), but I do it.
I think that if more people were able to 'control' their symptoms by mental excertion or other therapies and could regulate the disorder themselves without the need for drugs, then these kids would be able to have the best of both worlds, the concentration ability, and the creativeness and intellect of their overactive minds.
Just a few things to go over. Those symptoms (the grunts, ticks, etc) are Tourette's syndrome and are not symptoms of the ADHD medication. I know this because I grew up with that form of Tourette's and have never taken medication to treat it. The vast majority of those that have Tourettes never scream obscenities so stop watching Duece Bigalow over and over ;).
:)
As far as the Neural Feedback treatment, scrap that and go for martial arts. I recommend Tai Chi. Most with Tourette's Syndrome also exhibit ADHD "symptoms" which can be brought under control via the phenomena of neuroplasticity. To put it simply, your daughter's brain is wired for high performance. Her environment is likely not suitable for this kind of mind. As a result, she's bursting at the seams.
The neural pathways in the brain constantly grow new connections to increase how efficiently things operate (a process that's faster in children than in adults). This is why over time, any skill you practice becomes easier to do. Your daughter's pathways happen to do this at a much faster rate than most so things are occurring in a haphazard fashion. Ritalin tries to address this not by attempting to apply some kind of discipline to it but rather by dulling the entire process. Imagine her as a driver and her nervous system as a high performance car. Untrained, the driver is likely to make a lot of mistakes with that car. Ritalin approaches this problem by deflating the tires, putting low-octane gas in the tank, and applying a governor to the engine. Sure, the driver will then likely make fewer mistakes but how good are these changes for the car itself? Martial arts, on the other hand, approach this problem by disciplining the driver to harness the power of the car as a whole. This is accomplished without compromising the integrity of the mind. I've never had Neural Feedback Therapy before but I have a funny feeling martial arts are probably a lot more fun
Tai Chi is my recommendation only due to my own experiences with it. Assuming she's between five and seven years old, a variant of Kung Fu might be more fun for her and just as rewarding. Many people practice Tai Chi along with other arts so mixing things up can be good.
Martial arts are an enjoyable, natural, convenient way to bring the mind into focus without having to resort to drugs. They can be practiced nearly anywhere at any time and also help to build self esteem and overall health. Enroll her over the summer and see if it makes a difference for the next school year.
Do a google search for "neuroplasticity" to see how that works.
I think we fared pretty well over our lifetimes. Haven't we?
/.? Man, wake up!
Haven't you realized that you are on
Get a half ball, made out of wood, of with a 8" radius (ball should be 16" wide) with a flange on the flat half. Have child balance on it twice per day for 10 minutes, in the morning before school, and after dinner.
This develops the cerebellum, which also happens to control memory and information flow, in addition to motor control messages.
ADD will be gone within a year, even for adults. Success rate of this therapy is almost 80%, without any drugs.
ADD is a developmental issue which occurs because the child does not get enough physical activity. Very simple to fix.
l8,
AC
A good t-shirt I saw recently said:
"I've got ADHD - Try to keep up"
Actually, I'm not advocating against neurofeedback training, which is non-invasive, I'm sure.
I was referring more to her ongiong use of Ritalin and her parent's willingness to seemingly try ANYTHING, even chemical.
I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
...once we get the public schools to fund an all-day pre-school, we don't have to pay child care. Some people really have mixed-up priorities. We used to say "the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world." Now we ditch the kids off on someone else as soon as we can.
Put some stripes on the kid's ass. A few applications will cure ADHD.
My wife is a Child Psychiatrist and medical researcher. In addition to reasearch and clinical work, she works 10 hrs a week with an agency that helps foster and adoptive parents.
I have heard stories from both ends of the spectrum. One where a foster parent wanted to medicate a perfectly normal child just so they could more easily manage an inquisitive child in a boring environment.
And an other case where the parents were strongly opposed to med's but ther little boy was literally climbing the walls knocking books of the self in a 15 minute interview. After meds the boy was much, much, much better, and happier. The parents could not believe the difference and felt bad about the boy suffering so long.
True ADHD is socially very difficult on the child. Untreated, an ADHD child has an increased chance of drug abuse.
I mentioned Cliff's post to my wife and she, like an other poster, recommend Strattera. Strattera is a non stimulant ADHD drug that is as effective as Ritalin.
ADHD is both the most under-diagnosed, and over-diagnosed childhood desease. As much as 30% of ADHD children are left undiagnosed. Many times their parents think "boys will be boys" or "I was like that" (Umm there is strong genetic basis). On the over-diagnosed side, upto 15% of diagnosed children may actually be bipolar. If your child is not responding well to ADHD Meds, talk to a Child Psychiatrist. A pediatrician is not as trained to make the distinction between ADHD and Bipolar Disorder.
There is a spectrum ADHD severity. There are very severe cases where it is totally unfair and hurtful to call it "bad parenting". And there are mild cases where coping strategies alone may help.
Also confusing matters in the mild cases, sometimes "labeling" the child as ADHD can make the difference in getting extra reasources to an acedemically struggling child.
That's a really excellent description of ADHD, especially rahyl's description of the brain being wired for high performance. I'm 42 and was diagnosed as hyperactive when I was about 9. Took Ritalin for a while, which my parents said helped, but I also remember huge emotional outbursts before they took me off of it. My experience of me has always been that I want people to talk faster, I lose my mind in lectures unless I very actively take notes, and I sometimes lose the thread of conversations if a person can't get to the point. As annoying for me as for other people. :-(
Anyway, for unrelated reasons, I took up Zen meditation 8 or 10 years ago. After a couple of months, I noticed my mind was calmer and more focused, I could read books for longer without getting distracted, and though my mind was no less quick, I was much more able to deal with the world around me. If Neural Feedback Therapy can fully engage the mind in a similar fashion, the poster can probably get some good results. But if it doesn't work, is too weird or expensive, or his daughter just balks at it, I think meditation and/or martial arts are definitely worth a try.
One more thing, though. Not all martial arts teachers are the same. Talk to people and maybe sit in on different schools during training. The student, as well as the parent, should be comfortable in the surroundings. If nothing else, it's one less distraction.
No, I just don't have the attention span for grammar :D
I browse at +5 Flamebait- moderation for all or moderation for none.
In my fervor to make my primary points I left out some points. Diet is of course a likely cause. It ties in with smoking and drugs as it passes toxins and, of course, healtful nutrients (and a poor diet can rob the child of essential nutrients required to synthesize certain proteins and enzymes) on to the developing child. I'm sure mothers who have their daily starbucks with a 4 shot cappuccino or eat nothing but fried chicken strips from McDonald's are harming their developing child. Your point is taken and appreciated.
I have been diagnosed with ADD because of my tendencies to become distracted by every shiny object to the point where it affects my work. Ritalin was waaay too strong for me and I'm having good effect with dexedrine. The evidence for Einstein having ADD is over-rated. It IS apparent that he was an oddball at best and in his own little world at worst. Rather than being a poster-boy for ADD, this puts him within other areas of the autistic spectrum, perhaps PDD/NOS or Asperger's. There have been concerns that I may fall within the pervue of Asperger's, which I wish I'd known about 20 years ago. My son is presently attending a special school to figure out his problems with attentitiveness, discipline etc. but already the hallmarks of something autism-spectrum-related are there. ADD/ADHD rarely occurs all by itself. There are often other issues such as Sensory Integration (me and two of my kids have problems with processing audio). These cannot be typically diagnosed by a family physician and this can quickly run into serious money if not covered by health care (one of the many nice things about living in Canada) and hence can often go undiagnosed and untreated.
Anyone who has done Neurofeedback does not call it biofeedback and knows that it has nothing to do with thinking yourself out of ADD. Although Neurofeedback is sometimes called EEG Biofeedback, it nothing like traditional biofeedback. Perhaps you and those you know have done some kind of biofeedback, but I'm sure it's not Neurofeedback.
DO NOT USE RITALIN.
or else your child will develop even more neurological problems and heart problems.
check with several doctors before putting her on anything, because some doctors dont know what the fuck they're doing. it's like "Hi, my child has this an--" "Take ritalin." "My child has sleeping prob--" "Take ritalin." and if you were advised by the school to have her put on ritalin, That's their answer to all cildhood problems, whether it be depression, intelligence, or being bullied, they always tell you to put the kid on ritalin.
talk to several doctors, and I dont mean 3 or 4, more like 15.
Now that you mention it, I have the same problem, but I never associated it with ADHD - perhaps I will have to investigate that.
However, teaching a 5 year old child, let alone one who can't sit still and focus for 5 minutes, the mental training to 'control' their symptoms, is damned near impossible.
And to all those people who say "5 year olds are supposed to be active"... BULLSHIT! I've seen plenty of non-medicated, normal 5 year olds who can calm down and sit still for a period of time - hours sometimes - and do something. The problem with true ADHD is you never get that respite. Whenever I wasn't sleeping, I was going from one thing to another every few minutes. I think the longest I could pay attention to something was about 5 to 10 minutes before I'd switch tracks to something else, and it was like that from waking up to bedtime. I couldn't sit still through a 30 minute tv show! Medication can work better... and in my case, I wouldn't mind having to set aside the mental tricks I use to try to focus at the times it gets most difficult yet is most critical.
- MaineCoon
Hunt your preferred prey at Aliens vs Predator MUD. Join the war at avpmud.com port 4000
My dad has never been diagnosed with ADHD, but from what I've read he definitely fits in one of the six types of ADD. I have considered the possibility that I have some type of ADD myself, but I have not been diagnosed either.
...
...) so it's not like you have to do low-carb dieting to stay away from foods that could possibly contribute to ADD.
So, I do not know if I myself have this disease, but I am 25 years old and I am just now in my last year of college! When I am finally done it will mean I have been in college for eight years in order to get a four year degree. Of course, this could be due to the fact that neither of my parents went to college and so they could not prepare me for college properly, but anyway
During the past seven years I have had several struggles; one of them being a weight problem. I weighed 375 lbs. when I was finally diagnosed with Type-2 diabetes. They gave me drugs to take--drugs that would stimulate the pancreas to produce more insulin, thus decreasing the life-span of my pancreas. Then the Atkin's diet became all popular and so I tried that and it worked VERY well. I weigh 200 lbs. now (after 2.5 years) and I have a much greater ability to focus/think than I ever had during highschool.
This is not an ad. for the Atkin's diet because I now believe the diet did something for me that has nothing to do with the quantity of food one should eat. The diet gave me a chance to get away from wheat and other grains and to some degree diary-products (the Atkin's bars have only casein-based protein, which is milk-derived.. but compared to the amount of milk I used to consume, it is a lot less now) It is my understanding (but there are no facts that I can find in research) that wheat-proteins and dairy-based-products can actually contribute to certain PDDs (Pervasive Developmental Disorders). This means autism or Asperger's syndrom. I have also begun to consider that ADD could be a side-effect of any spectrum of the PDDs in general. (just an insight here, no proof)
Obviously, what works best for one person may not work that great for other people. But I have found a great deal of relief from the symptom's of ADD and/or PDDs since I began removing wheat,dairy, and egg-based products my diet. It's extermely easy to do now with all the Atkin's/LowCarb dieting. However, I'll grab a bag of mixed-fruit and chow down these days (which is full of sugar
In conclusion, I feel much better and I am finally doing well in college. I'm an all-A's & B's student these days. Certain basic fundamental concepts are much easier for me understand that no doubt "normal" people take for granted. I do not feel as if I am part of a mindless conformity either--But I do live alone and I do not participate in very much social activities other than going to the library and fitness-center by myself. A high-price to pay, perhaps, but it seems to work best for me this way.
-TheJanitor
...I have heard excellent things about this company...
...It is purportedly created by a mother who was also a doctor and was uncomfortable about quick-fix medications, and so fostered a company that uses some sort of mental therapy techniques to address the issue (I didnt find out if it was the neur. stuff you apparently have already found, but sounds like it might be similiar).
.02
ht*p://www.sharpermindcenters.com/
At any rate, my
A lot of the symptoms of ADHD are also associated with attachment-related issues. The growing dependence on preschool/daycare and hyperscheduling for children is creating increasing numbers of attachment-challenged children. (Not coincidentally, the "traditional" ways of raising children, i.e. mom-at-home, mud pies, etc. prevent these attachment issues.)
ADHD therapies, including medications, do not work for children with attachment disorders. In fact, in many cases they're counterproductive. Makes me wonder why some ADHD cases that appear to be properly diagnosed (there are a few here and there) don't respond to medical and other therapies...
Attachment issues are also associated with mental illnesses, like Bipolar I. I should know, I have a kid with one of the most serious forms of attachment disorder, and she's bipolar. (I also have another child with ADHD, so I can immediately spot the difference).
Google for "reactive attachment disorder", "Nancy Thomas" and "Daniel Hughes". Sobering stuff.
P.s. Be very cautious of an ADHD diagnosis in a pre-teen child, it's a challenging thing to get right without testing and a very skilled evaluator. And don't even think of using the meds alone as therapy, there has to be counseling/psychological work at the same time.
I have ADHD and I found that changing my diet to..... Oh look- crayons....
My son went through Neurotherapy for a year at AnchorPoint. It was amazing the way he was able to use his mind to calm himself and place himself in better control. They monitor the alpha, beta, and theta waves in the brain, and are able to show when he is out of control, etc. They try to basically get the signal to noise ratio better by doing certain computer related exercises.
We found that although my son was able to improve his concentration (less day-dream waves), his diet, The Feingold Diet, actually improved his behavior better by removing known stimulants from his food (artificial colors, flavors, and artificial preservatives BHA, BHT, TBHQ).
On a side note and from a techy perspective, the neurotherapists are using some nifty electronics (ISA cards) that amplify the brain waves. The hardware/software they use (proprietary) will only run on slow PCs (Pentium I class or less) and Windows 95 or 98, and also require a SoundBlaster brand only sound card. They could really use some open-source software!
...But not the only answer. For hyperactive children, I think a big source of the problem is sugar and caffeine. Also remember that kids are natually active as they explore their world and learn. I know I've suffered from ADD since I was in high skool, and only got treatment for it 16 years later. I take Adderall XR and I find that it helps. However, learning coping strategies/self talk is also important. The medicine can slow down those crazy thoughts, but you still have to do some behaviour modification. Children are not self-aware enough to use self talk to alleviate ADD since they most likely do not even understand what it is. For a final thought, ADHD is not a disorder. Just different brain wiring.
-- After all is said and done, more is said than done.
Indeed, I've seen both ends of this fence, however. Actually, there are 4 sides.
a) The child does have ADHD, and is properly medicated which has some effect
b) The child has some other problem, but is being incorrectly diagnosed/medicated for ADHD.
c) Has ADHD but is improperly medicated (maybe diagnosed with something else).
d) Doesn't have ADHD, or mild enough to not be a major concern, but is medicated.
(I suppose a fifth side would be your happy "normal" - and I use that term broadly - child).
So here we have a few issues:
One is that there are a lot of physicians and to them everyone is a patient. If you think there may be a problem, many doctors will go out of their way to find one. We're not labelling people as "witches" anymore, but we have a huge mass of sydromes, conditions, and general issues for people to be diagnosed with. It's a problem of overanalysis, where anyone who isn't "normal" must have some condition, either known or unknown. The problem is that normal isn't really defined and varies from person to person.
The second problem is medication or treatment. Many doctors love to prescribe even more than they like to diagnose. Some of you in the medical profession may be offended by this but some may also agree. Not all doctors, but many, believe in the "magic pill theory."
Different doctors can prescribe many different things to similar/same symptoms, and some follow the "pill-of-the-day." Pill-of-the-day is something to the extent where the doctor will actually try to match symptoms to the cure, rather than the opposite. Often precedence is given to newer drugs/therapies etc on the grounds that "it is helping a lot of people" - making us into human guinea-pigs.
Again, this doesn't apply to all doctors, but it does apply to many. It comes with looking for problems instead of solutions, or looking for a "cure" instead of looking deep at the person in question.
Be careful with new "solutions" or pills. I think the best cure is one that doesn't muffle the problem, but rather redirects the problem into something productive. As mentioned in the parent, sometimes "doesn't fit in" is not because somebody is of low intelligence, but simply because they're overqualified and thus bored. Also, when looking at academic solutions, don't forgot the social ones... it's great to have a kid who becomes a intellectual but not if he later ends up attached to bottle or some other disaster due to no social life.
"inefficient conversion of ALA To EPA and DHA" may well explain part of why I take 900mg of EPA and 600mg of DHA daily (3 Trader Joe's Omega-3 Fatty Acids, best brand by far in my opinion, more concentraited (so fewer pills) and least bad smell, also, they seem to work better). I started for depression, before my ADD was diganosed, they really help me.
Stratera helps, when I have a good nights sleep, or am on Adderal.
Plato seems wrong to me today
How many of us here have been misdiagnosed?
I myself was first diagnosed as dyslexic (reading disorder). I don't read backwords, english ended up being one of my best subjects, and my Chapters card saves me up to $30-40/year+ (think 10% discount and you'll get the idea of how many books I buy).
Around grades 6-7 I was diagnosed in a way that almost indefinately would be labelled ADHD. I was put on ritalin and my grades went down the toilet because I ended up napping through my classes (couldn't stay awake). Stopped taking pills on my own and things perked up. The discovery of computers sometime afterwards took up my free time and solved that problem.
Even at work, my habits might be described as having an "attention deficit." I am a working multitasker. I can have several things being worked on at once, at times I've enter data/documents into a computer whilst simultaneously talking to a colleage (it freaks me out that I do this because I'm not sure how). A consequence as of recent has been very poor sleeping habits (brain won't wind down), but I'm working on solutions to that.
Remember, one man's genius is another's "F-grade" math student.
And it isn't just chemicals or sugar, even certain "natural" foods can trigger food allergies. Some food allergies can give ADHD-like symptoms.
/ -/0688 119077/qid=1074195016//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/104 -7193047-3198334?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
It's worth a look.
"Is This Your Child?"
by Doris Rapp
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail
...the kid doesn't have enough chores to keep him busy!
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
My son, however, is another matter entirely. He's a great guy, but he's got ADHD in a FAR more acute form than I do. Lesson one, not everyone diagnosed with this disorder is in the same boat. Like good parents, we took our little darling to the doctor soon after he started kindergarten, where the teacher didn't appreciate his caroming off the walls like a biological billard ball. Ritlin, of course, was prescribed immediately.
My happy little fireball turned into a mopey, depressed little jellyfish. The teachers were happy -- he was now easy to control! Back to the doctor -- adjusting dosages gave big improvements, but never was just right. The side-effects were as bad as the ADHD.
They changed drugs, Adderol(sp) and several others. The doctor was getting testy, saying we should be satisfied with "good enough". We changed doctors. Lesson two: Keep trying!
FINALLY, a doctor tried Imapramine. It's an old-style antidepressant, with some interesting side-effects (like "slowing down" the mental machinery a bit). My son never had the anger problems and antisocial behavior frequently associated with ADHD, he just couldn't concnentrate - my wife would make him literally sit on his hands while she tried to help him with school work, and he'd just vibrate with unspent energy. It was a long-shot, but the doctor thought my son's symptoms might respond to the side-effects of Imaprimamine. It worked beautifully. He's still pretty "bouncy", but he's in control of himself. His grades are, frankly, not stellar. He's happy, productive, inquisitive, and alert, not doped-up on the typical ADD drugs. Lesson three Decide what results you want, realizing that the goal isn't necessarily to make your kid "just like everyone else", but to the best version of them they can be.
Anyway, ADD/ADHD IS a serious problem, unless you have a mild case like mine, and every treament has plusses and minuses. During the years we were trying different treatments, I got to see my son put through an emotional and physical taffy-puller, but we found a treatment that seems to fit HIS situation well, reducing the symptoms that are limiting to him without impairing or redefining who he is beneath it all. Keep working at it, and you should find something that works for your daughter.
Yes, you are pretty much correct for most of the cases. Basically the self-centered "me" generation of the baby boomers thinks that all youthfullness was expressed in thier day and all that they were indulged in thier time they have categorically and systematically forbidden to subsequent generations.
So you can understand this as the stoner older brother who wants the house to be quiet for his post-dionysian recovery and thus does his best to bind and gag his younger siblings while shaking them down for thier lunch money in order to pay back the bills he racked up with his dealers.
Basically, the "Me" generation doesn't want the younger generations running around making noise or having any fun. They want to deny children the right to be children (look at the "no tolerance" policies), to sit staight in thier seats facing forwards, impassive, silient and obedient. They see any outbreaks of youthful exuberance, organic spontaneity, or creativity as a threat to them and seek to quash it by holding a gun to the student's heads in the form of permanent academic ruin or relegation to chemical lobotomy.
ADD in itself is NOT a disease. It is an adaptation which is not condusive to the grey monotinous inhumanity of wageslavery which is currently popular in the US. ADD types are hunter-brained revolutionaries. And they must be stopped because we all know there was only ONE generation who ever rebelled.
You don't have this in France because there isn't this greek chorus of interfering dessicated spinsters always trying to dehumanize the population. You recognize these behaviors as neccesary expected variations of personality and don't seek to force them into the General FDA Aprroved personality.
I'm posting this too late in the discussion for anyone to read this.
It seems the general bent for those who believe in the existance of AD*D is thus:
1) Couldn't concentrate
2) Bad grades
3) Took drugs
4) 1) and 2) remedied
5) Therefore have ADD/ADHD
Has anyone here actually taken the medication? It makes EVERYONE concentrate better. It doesn't discriminate and just magically help those who "need" it.
I took ritalin/dexamphetamine without a prescription (having been supplied by friends) to aid in studying at high school. It's great stuff. But just because you concentrate better when you're on it, doesn't mean you have a disorder.
Taking Ritalin because you're underperforming at school is like taking steroids because you're underperforming at athletics.
Jesus, get a life.
Dictionary: use it. It says something about you when you consistently misspell a common freaking word.
My spelling of time as "tyme" is correct. The full edition of Oxford English Dictionary lists that spelling as a correct Old English spelling. If it was correct then it's correct now. I bet you can learn a lot on etymology if you get the OED, all 20 something volumes and read it. I'd include the link to OED's online listing of "tyme" however it's a paid subscription service.
Should there be a Law?
Thanks for the warning, I knew about the splinctor not closing properly but didn't know that after the the operation it wouldn't open correctly. I'll need to research and think about having it done more then. The reason I've wanted it was because I don't like having to take any meds, I don't even like taking aspirin for headaches, and I don't want to be dependent on taking a drug for the rest of my life. As I told my doc within about 36 hours from the last tyme I take my prescription my throat starts burning and gets so bad it feels as though someone poured molten lead down my throat. Other than the meds the only think I've found that helps is licorice root or ginger root. The licorice only works while I suck on a piece though and I don't like the taste and after awhile it mades me nauseated. The ginger, which I love, only works for a couple of hours at best after sucking on it.
Should there be a Law?
Thanks, I'll try Acidophilus and yogurt now, hope it works.
I'm wondering if it's just candida or if it's also other yeasts though. As for spices I haven't noticed if it makes a difference. I love spicy food, I'm a chilehead and say the hotter the better, but I don't always eat spicy food. I sometimes go a few weeks or even a few months without eating any spicy food and the burning in my throat doesn't change.
I hadn't thought about acidic foods or antibiotics either. I drink a lot of juices and eat lots of food with tomatoes. As for antibiotics, it's been a few years since I've had a shot of them, I don't like how antibiotics are used today. Though I eat some meats I buy organic free range food when I can. I don't eat much grains or other carbs either, actually I eat more garden salad than any other thing, with tomatoes.
Should there be a Law?
various vocal tics (grunting, odd little noises, words and so forth... think Tourette's Syndrome, only not nearly as bad), which is one of the side effects of stimulant medication.
If she is having that kind of side effects, find her a different medication or help her learn to cope with adhd without medication, this is not healthy nor normal.
I was referring more to her ongiong use of Ritalin and her parent's willingness to seemingly try ANYTHING, even chemical.
:-)
My parents, tried *everything*. Finally, chemical is what worked.
Believe me, if you have a child with severe ADD, you will try *anything*.
Karma: Chevy Kavalierma.
Yeah, it's an overused phrase, but in this case it seems appropriate. The reference to the Mercola site is an excellent idea, and the first place I would go too.
/. crowd also buys into the silly idea that the only way to be "healthy" is to take lots of drugs and have body pieces cut out if they become unhealthy. Maybe because they don't want to give up the sugary snacks and soda? I'd rather feel good all the time and be healthy, but that's just me.
What we call "traditional medicine," with the priesthood of doctors and the magic wand of drugs, is not at all traditional. It is merely a few decades long experiment that is not working out, but we don't yet have the wisdom to boot it out of our society. At this point it is held in place by the astounding amount of money involved, just like the energy industry and some others.
The amazing thing to me is that so much of the otherwise intelligent
While technology can help many fields, it has to be used intelligently. We laugh at controlling the toilet seat via a cel phone, but take seriously that technology should be the answer to the health of our entirely organic bodies. Drugs may be useful in a few cases, but the root CAUSE of most health problems are certainly not a "drug deficiency." Most of them are poor choices in lifestyle and/or a severe lack of education in the actual causes of disease and good health (for cause of poor education, see above reference to LOTS of MONEY).
Putting improper substances (food) for our particular body CAUSES some chemical imbalances, and in our arrogance we think the solution is to try to outsmart nature and just tweak the chemicals. That is like going blind into a million line program and thinking we can just change a few lines and not cause side-effects, even though we don't know hardly anything about the rest of the codebase. As you might expect, it does not work so well. Have you ever really listened to the list of side-effects of the drugs advertised on TV?! Most are much worse than the disease!
The right answer is to find the conditions under which the (individual) human body needs to thrive, and supply them. We are self-healing beings, given half a chance. It's really not so complicated, though the people making billions off the status quo will not admit that it could be that easy.
Humans evolved over millions of years in a certain way, and in the last 100 years we have completely changed the nature of the foods we eat, when we sleep relative to the sun, how much natural light we get, and the chemicals we are exposed to. And as it stands, most of us will get heart disease, diabetes, or cancer; and at a younger and younger age each generation. These diseases were relatively rare not so very long ago. And plenty of less well known diseases often clear up with the same basic regime.
Years ago, I found that if I took just a little bit of Speed (methamphetamine) I would feel what I knew was "normal." I could relax and have focus and energy. But I was just fooling with the Speed and did not want to be a junkie. So I started learning about nutrition to see what else it might be that my body was missing.
Many of the changes seemed to help, but it never really brought me to "normal." For 25 years I ate what was the best I could find for my particular body. But even then I was limited by my beliefs and the lure of "common knowledge." One thing everyone "knew" was that red meat and other animal foods was bad for you and lots of fruit and whole grains were good. Then, from a story and link on Dr. Mercola's site, I found a reference to a book called The Metabolic Typing Diet, by Wolcott and Fahey. The background of Dr. Wolcott is fascinating, but the short version is that we all have specific genetic needs, and we don't eat the kind of foods we need, bad things happen.
The doctor's mentor healed himself on a vegetarian diet, and nearly killed his own wife on the same diet. Since he thought there was no hope anyway, he let her have the meat she wanted. She got
ADHD is strong in my family, Myself, Both my brothers, my Father, 10 male cousins, all diagnosed. I have a least 1 niece with it. That said, I really feal for your family. But it isn't the end of the world.
We have studied it. Some of my cousins have been involved in the brain studies that others have talked about, we have all given blood to try and identify a gene.
It makes it hard to fit into modern society. I would try the biofeedback training. At the worst, it will do nothing, at best, it will train your daughter how to use her mind in new ways.
One of my Aunt's found a book a few years ago by a man named Thom Hartman. His viewpoint is that ADHD, ADD isn't a disorder but a leftover survival characteristic. People who are now diagnosed with ADD were once the Hunters/Explorers/Warriors/Sentries of the past. Farmers have taken over the world and we no longer fit in. ADD/ADHD isn't always a lack of focus. We are constantly scanning our world, monitoring every little thing, then something catches our attention and we can ultrafocus to the exclusion of everything else. We lose track of time during these periods.
Some people consider him a crackpot and his theories as pure nonsense. As for me, his ideas helped. I learned what behaviors people found most annoying. I learned to blunt those traits so they don't bother other people so much. I learned how to take advantage of my positives.
I never liked the drugs because they dull the world for me. I lose the ability to grab that scent of a new idea and chase it down. That is what I am hoping the biofeedback will help your daughter to learn far easier than I ever did. How to take advantage of her gift when it suits her and how to fit in with others the rest of the time.
Good luck!
Let me try to explain how does it work. Imagine that you are some weakness in your legs and you are not able to walk. You can have some therapy and you will know when you are walking because you are moving. Now imaging that instead of walking you cannot be in a certain mental state called "concentrated" you can make a lot of different kind of therapies to try to get into this state. How can I know if I am really getting concentrated or not? Here is where neurfeed back come into the game, by looking you brain waves (or some front-end easy to read interface) you can know when are you concentrated or not. Cause you know does it feels get concentrated you can learn to do it without any feedback.
While I was in therapy I talked with people with ADHD and all of them agreed that neurofeed back helped them as a trainer for knowing how to concentrate.
If it turns out that you have ADD or ADHD, drugs might work, and they might not. They are just a start. Long term, you have to learn coping strategies.
I have ADD. I tried several medications. They didn't work for me. I've learned how to do things like structure my time and environment, and to break up tasks. Note-taking helps me concentrate and monitor the effectiveness of my studying. Keeping to-do lists and check lists helps me keep from forgetting things when my concentration is down, and lets me plan brilliantly when my concentration kicks into high gear.
IMPORTANT: ADHD is such a big catch-all for concentration disorders that your problems may not be anything at all like mine. I.E.: YMMV!
My other car is a 1984 Nark Avenger.
Just what everyone's resume needs [sic].
Sorry. You don't fit in to the corporate world you may find yourself
fitting in to the nearest homeless, bankruptcy or suicide treatment
center.
Or better yet: "management problem", "non-conformist", "loose canon".
yeah....those are great traits to have your kid grow up with.
What planet you from, anyway?
...to make them more interesting rather than give bored people drugs to make them pay attention.
I was diagnosed with ADHD back when they just called it ADD. Im 29 now, and when i was 8 or so, i remember having all these electrodes hooked up to my head so they could measure my brainwaves. They stuck me in a dark room and told me not to open my eyes and after 5 minutes guess what, i started opening my eyes out of bordem, then the mad scientist in charge of my experiment was taking notes and they figured i must have ADD b/c i cant follow simple instructions. Ask any 1st grader to keep their eyes closed with out opening them for 10 minutes? see if they do it. Thats like asking someone not to think of a pink hippopotomaus. Its crack science at best. And with people like the the poster willing to pump their kid full of drugs so they dont have to deal with their kid is jsut pathetic. Yes, your kid will run around the house and yell and scream and play and bounce off the walls - that doesnt mean that their gonna be that way when theyre teenagers or adults - Just relax and let nature take its course with this, jsut becasue someone can give it a name, doesnt mean its a disease. I was pumped full of ritialn until i was 14, thank god, i moved to florida where my dad didnt believe in that, and all my problems went away and i have no problem concetrating, all those kids with adhd need are alittle love and understanding by their lazy ass quick-fix me generation parents who cant wait to put the kids to sleep so they can watch homosexual double entandras from will and grance and queer eye tv shows. Heres some advice for the poster: why not try putting you kid on lithium? That way she wont make any noise and quietly play nicely with other kids, shell have the personality of a fern, but hey, as long as the kid is fulfilling the parent's idea of what their kid should be, then everything must be right. I found a new disease, its called "ADHD-itis" and most adults who have kids with high energy have it. These parents have this disease where they throw drugs and anything else at their kid until the kid becomes just as lame and lifeless as their parents. We need to put these adults on some serious drugs.
I have a great deal of experience dealing with ADD diagnosis for my son at age 4, he is now 17. Doctors get into the routine of prescribing ritalin and may be missing other symptoms that can be dangerous to your child. Get an MRI or CAT Scan. If your doctor will not prescribe it find a quality machine and pay the fee. Prices can be lower than 400 dollars. No open MRI the wattage is too low and the picture is poor. Don't mess around with this problem. My email is sage007@hotmail.com. I am not a medical doctor but speak from observation and personal experience, and research. Larry (I apologize to Slashdot as I could not get logged in. Anonymous Coward is a cute way of allowing those who are truly anonymous to post. A little ritalin for the web master please and maybe my login would be accepted?)
First off let me say as an adult with ADHD, and having delt with it my whole life (diagnosed at age five), it is of my opinion that there is no "cure" for ADHD as it is NOT a sickness. People with ADHD are simply wired different. I have been on everything fron Ritalin to Stattera and most meds work fine, but I can't bring myself to stay on something the rest of my life. I have found the best "cure" (if you must) is learning how to deal with it psychologically level and in my daily life. I make myself notes constantly, I inform people that I'm close to that I have the condition. I remind myself that it's a condition that can be adapted. When I was young my parents became VERY involved with everything I did at school. My point is, kids with ADHD need attention and involvment from parents, not meds. There are a thousand books out there about how to get deal with it, and they will all tell you that it take involvment.
I was misdiagnosed as an adult..convinced by a friend of ours that has dealt with ADD/ADHD that I was. about 8 years later, I was properly diagnosed as being bipolar. Years of being on stimulants is not a good thing and I'd highly advise not doing so unless there is no other choice. I'm definitely not saying ADD/ADHD isn't real...just saying that misdiagnosis is VERY common. Many manic behaviors can be misconstrued as ADD/ADHD. Also, no manic folks go to the doctor...usually they only go on the low side of the cycle during depression. Anti-depressants to a bipolar are NOT good. (been there, done that)
In another way, it's a lot like depression. There's the range of approaches from "just be a strong person and you'll get over it" to the "drug 'em up ASAP and as much as possible."
While the extremes don't work that often, just about everything within that spectrum will work on some of the patients and not on others. There are gazillions of things that cause conditions such as depression, ADHD, and so on, and so there are going to be different solutions.
In ADHD, Ritalin is the standard pharmaceutical response, just like Proxac is for depression. And yes, a lot of lazy diagnosticians will just prescribe those to get the patient out of the office ASAP or because they don't even know better.
The neural feedback therapy has a good chance of working if the underlying cause is something that can be self-regulated, just like cognitive therapy has a good chance of working if the underlying cause of an individual patient's depression is maladaptive cognitive patterns.
I have dealt with ADD for most of my life, and have been able to cope with it. I've taken honors classes, Got into a very good college, and have generally been sucessful. By staying up all night to finish homework, etc., etc. Not healthy and not a good balance. Once i went to college i had some problems, and almost flunked out. I did well in some classes but it was just that i couldn't do everything. I'm a very good out of the box thinker. but the whole living on my own, and doing school killed me. Here is what i found helped
I dont have the outward hyperactive tendencies but rather my brain does it in the inside if that makes sense. Example: if in your life each responsibility (Class, Job, driving kids to soccer, making dinner) is a ball you have to roll down a table. I'm VERY good at rolling one or two balls at once very fast, but I forget the rest of them.
I tried the Ritalin thing in my senior ear of high school and that was not good, i got overtired, lost my appetite, stressed, etc. etc. Major nerve fraying. Next I tried Welbutrin which helped but I still didn't like it. It didn't seem to help.
I've never been one to use drugs anyways, i'm pretty "straight edge" you could say. Not that I wont take pain killers if I have a headache, but for something like ADD i would rather have a permanent fix instead of a temporary one.
I have done EEG neurofeedback, and I have had very good experience with it. My concentration is better, i have more energy, i am more relaxed, and generally feel more resreshed than i did before.
I would suggest that if your daughter does do the feedback though, you do what I did. I worked with a psychologist who specializes in Working with people who have "problems" such as these. He also works with a wide variety of people with different conditions, but the practice's main focus is helping people of all ages with different disorders whether it is ADD or OCD, or something like that.
Obviously my situation is different since i'm older, but they work with many elementary and middle school aged children as well and have good success, with everyone i've talked to.
My doctor and I developed a custom program that's right for me. I told him what i wanted, and hoped to get from working with him and we built the program around that. (for younger kids he works closely with parents, and schools so that they can be better educated as well) Mine ended up being Neurofeedback, But also working with him on some online classes, organizational strategies, help with anxiety, etc. I learned methods and practices which i could use as tools in my life to better help me on my way. My Doctor didn't try and supress my ADD as much as he and I have worked on teaching me to harness the drive have from it better, and focus it more readily and reliably. The key thing that sets this doc apart from most others i've tried is he doesn't view it as a problem but instead as a unique quality. You can fit in to the "80% society" when you need to, but still have the focusing power when you need it.
So i would recommend Neurofeedback, but also don't dicount using it as part of a bigger picture or treatment. I didn't want to use drugs to fix my problem, and i'm much better off for it I think. It hasn't been a cure all yet but I am better able to work at school, and am generally just a happier, more capable, person since I worked on treatment.
My doctors website is http://www.ct-ed.com there is some very good information on there. I would suggest looking at it if you are interested in more information.
If you are interested in talking more please email me at idedontknow AT hotmail DOT com I would be glad to explain better what i've done and how it has helped me esp the feedback part of it if that's what you are interested in
My daughter who was a 2nd grader last year, had 40 treatments of neurofeedback towards the end of the school year. Around the 31-33 treatment we started seeing a big difference in her level of concentration. Since it was around the summer we were not sure. But as soon as she entered 3rd grade we knew it had made a difference. This is a kid who was getting F's in 2nd grade and the principal was going to fail her until we got an attorney. Now she's pushing C's and as of the first week of school her 3rd grade teacher can't figure out what all the fuss was about since she says my daughter does not have a concentration problem. She describes her as a hardworking who is holding her own. Before neurofeedback there was no light at the end of the tunnel, now TG, there is. I hope this helps man.
Medscape is a highly regarded and very professional web site for medical professionals and laypeople. They have ongoing research on ADHD. This article specifically addresses Adolescent ADHD issues - I found no mention of NFT. This section (7) mentions alternate treatment for tic - A nonstimulant medication, atomoxetine (Strattera).
http://www.medscape.com/px/urlinfo
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"Welcome Progress in the Diagnosis and Treatment of ADHD
Section 7 of 11
"Pharmacotherapy
"For most adolescents with ADHD, drug treatment is required to achieve and maintain a clinically significant reduction in core ADHD symptoms. Only a minority of adolescents with mild symptoms are able to cope successfully at school with academic interventions alone. Drug therapy should therefore be presented to both patients and parents as an essential tool with which to manage ADHD, not as a last resort
Stimulant medications are well established as the preferred first-line therapy for ADHD in all age groups. Methylphenidate (MPH), the most widely prescribed stimulant, is available in a number of formulations that differ in their duration of action (Table 3). The immediate-release formulation has a duration of action of only three or four hours and requires dosing two or three (sometimes four) times a day. Intermediate-acting and more recent longer-acting formulations require less frequent or once-daily dosing. Amphetamine-based treatments are also available in short-, intermediate-, and longer-acting formulations.
A nonstimulant medication, atomoxetine (Strattera), has recently been approved for use in children, adolescents, and adults with ADHD. It may be an appropriate second-line therapy for patients who fail to respond to stimulant therapy or who desire an alternative to stimulants. No well-controlled, prospective, long-term study has yet compared the safety and efficacy of atomoxetine with long-acting stimulant medications.
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Stop Ritalin
Agreed, Ritalin has never been properly tested for use with children. I suggest reading The evil practice of Narcotherapy for attention Deficit and Drugged Obedience in the School by Dr. David Keirsey one of the world's leading clinical psychologists.
I don't claim to be a "Super Genius". Actually as you just pointed out my writing has been atrocious since I survived a TBI, Traumatic Brain Injury. Writing isn't the only thing that has deteriorated since my accident but it's more than enough as I love to write.
Should there be a Law?
Not at all as it has the same definition as the spelling "time". While the spelling may be of Olde English it's still English, not French or Spanish. It's also the same word even if it has a different spelling, "heure" on the other hand is a compleatly different word even though it may have the same or a similar definition. Not that it's incorrect, I don't know, but at least my spelling basically looks and is pronounced similar, and doesn't take much to get it's meaning. I also spell other words in a way that's not considered a contemporary spelling, such with "color", I spell it "colour". I've used some of these spellings since high school. I even dragged my composition teacher down to the library to show her the Oxford English Dictionary, OED, listed "tyme" as a correct spelling. After that she'd check the OED for the spelling I used before marking it wrong, she never marked another spelling as wrong after that.
Should there be a Law?
Here, here! As someone who qualifies to join Mensa (but chooses not to join), I heartily agree with several of your points. (FWIW, I apparently have an IQ above 140.
As someone who qualifies to join Mensa, you should know that it's "Hear, hear!", not "Here, here!".
I know this, and my IQ is only 138.
It's sometimes hard to spell things you've only heard. And, it's sometimes hard to pronounce things you've only seen written.