Ok, that is probably the crappiest statistic I've seen. No, don't believe it at all.
Out here in India, Outsourcing salaries for freshers start at 200K INR per annum (small IT shops). For the major outsourcing companies (TCS, Infosys, Satyam, etc.), the numbers can go up to 300K-350K per year. The real bigwigs (IBM, Accenture, etc.) offer up to 400K-450K per year.
At 2 years, one gets around 500k-600k per year. The 10-20 year bracket get anywhere in between 1M-2M per year.
Of course, all figures are in INR. Divide by the current exchange rate to get the amount in USD. But that's a pointless exercise since we spend in INR you see and the amounts I just mentioned are really really good.
Disclaimer: The recession may have changed these figures by a bit, a really small bit though.
And, IMHO, if he means "Linux in general" (as opposed to Red Hat Enterprise Linux), that is a huge mistake, because MS will use its desktop monopoly and control of protocols to limit the penetration of Linux servers.
What he meant by his comment was that he thinks it is difficult to make money out of selling support for Linux desktops, which is why few will actually venture into the serious business of supporting Linux on Desktops.
Supporting Desktops is a challenging exercise due to the variety of hardware (you can't really try to support all of them and make money out of it). This is probably what Jim Whitehurst is sceptical about.
That assumes that you either know the language the kernel or a program is written in, AND have the time to investigate and make the change. Often even professional coders don't have the time to make all the changes to FOSS programs they'd like.
True, but if you want it bad enough, you can pay someone to do it for you.
The problem with Linux is that yes there are critics... BUT the Linux community dismisses them as twits who don't understand or appreciate Linux...
If the Linux community were to take end users seriously and start solving their problems then maybe Linux would move on...
Pay for it and you just might get it. Buy a support subscription from Red Hat/Canonical/Novell and ask them for a feature or report bugs that bother you and you absolutely want fixed. Better yet, hire someone to implement it for you.
It's funny how people confuse the Free for "no money" rather than the freedom that FOSS affords you.
I agree with the sentiment but it is not black and white. Most people in India have lived their entire lives without cars and didn't need it. Their family, work, friends, home were all (for the most part) in relative distances. This car is so cheap they will get it (even if just 1% that's 10 mil more drivers on a 1 billion pop) and eventually need it.
The Nano is actually competition to two wheelers, which is the most popular mode of transport among the lower and middle classes in India. There is a very dangerous practice here in India, of families of 3 and 4 travelling by a scooter/motorcycle, which is what prompted Ratan Tata to conceptualize this car.
It's more to do with the country/region you're trying to look for a job in. Here in India, freelancing, internship, FOSS work does nothing to impress most employers. Quote one manager: "It cannot be counted as valid experience since I'm sure you must not have handled major responsibilities as you would now in a full time job". Yeah, single-handedly migrating applications from Oracle to PostgreSQL and deploying them into production in 2 weeks is not a job requiring responsibility.
I show off my FOSS (ayttm, antidialer) work more prominently than my day job experience, partly because I feel it's more important to me and partly because I want to be sought by employers who understand the relevance of FOSS contributions. But since FOSS contribution has not caught on as much as other parts of the world, most managers dismiss them as "college projects".
The motive behind my question about a game that "only runs Linux" was only this -- is there a game that's reason enough for a gamer to adopt Linux? I could probably have worded it differently.
I'm sorry, it sounds like you've been in the land of DirectX for far too long. Most Linux software is free and open source. Perhaps you'd be better suited in the restricted jumpsuit known as Windows.
Actually, I'm not really in touch with the gaming scene on the whole, be it DirectX based or otherwise. Also, I've been exclusively using Linux (and writing FOSS code) for some years now. So your grand conclusion that I should restrict myself to windows is utter bullshit and totally unnecessary.
It really depends on what the person wants out of his/her computer.
* An uninformed computer nerd (I know a few at work) needs to know how easy it is to look inside the hood of the OS and various programs. Also, the fact that *nixes (not just Linux) are almost always just *ready* for programming is really very appealing.
* Eyecandy lovers can be easily lured -- Compiz/Beryl.
* Small businesses will find the cost aspect appealing -- especially the typical ones where major usage is only email, surfing, spreadsheets, presentations and document processing. Another appealing factor could be that one can simply "Save as PDF" in OOWriter
* A gamer is the most difficult to get aboard. Anyone know a killer game that only runs Linux? No, not Nethack;) (despite the fact that it had me hooked for almost a year)
In fact, one might argue that the not-so-smart students got to compete at a less stressful level and actually stand out in the lower divisions.
I don't understand where you deduced this from.
All you're really interested in is cutting the alleged arrogance of the upper divisions down to size. Bad childhood experience?
Nope, never had that problem. I was always an A division student.
I notice that you didn't respond to my final comment about why getting rid of the MS wouldn't be beneficial:
I actually didn't reach there... your post was actually a bit too long to keep my attention. Sorry:)
Firstly, I never said that intelligent people are inherently arrogant bastards. Segregation gives them this feeling of eliteness, which can potentially turn them into arrogant bastards.
Secondly, I do agree that some kind of Merit based action is needed; I guess it didn't come out in my previous posts. It's just that I don't think simply separating them out is the solution. It is kinda like caste system, wherein children are exposed to classism at a very young age.
Few people are able to understand and handle such segregation as adults, so you certainly cannot expect children to take it well all the time. And it works both ways -- kids with lower IQ get depressed and churn out their depression in the form of rebellion, violence or introversion. Kids with higher IQ either lose all traces of modesty or become extremely pressured to perform at all times. Some stop performing to their maximum potential and set themselves an acceptable level of performance so that they don't fail. In short, the MS system isn't necessarily the best alternative for them either.
We Indians have always been taught to compete and we continue to pressure our kids to do the same. What we don't realize is that often children are not equipped to handle such pressures. They cope in many cases, but it leaves a mark in some way or the other.
The suicides you refer to continue to rise in spite of the apparently enlightened changes made in the system
What changes have been made in the system? How have they been instrumental in reducing pressure on the kids? Has child/parent counseling been made compulsory in schools? I'm not talking about career counselors, I'm talking about psychologists.
Surely, you haven't forgotten so much of your childhood as to assume that this sort of meritocracy was the only pressure a student had upon him/her?
You're extremely lucky that meritocracy was the only pressure you had in your student life. Many had other problems to cope.
Oh give me a break! What is it with this double standard? Jocks are allowed to bask in their physical abilities and triumphs but nerds can't feel good about being smart? As for the latter part of the quote above: that's a typical appeal to the self-esteem arguments that a country like India just can't afford. As such, please look at this objectively and try to avoid ascribing all the ills of academia to the single idea of a meritocracy.
I don't know what it's like in the US but here in India we never had jocks/nerds. In fact, you seem to have forgotten that the nerds are actually the popular ones here.
Of course, that's a little strange coming from you because the higher division folks are arrogant bastards anyway and the lower division folks are basically decent
Well if you keep raising them on a pedestal they will turn out to be arrogant bastards. Read this:
An approach like this is better than hardcore segregation. Segregation works like the caste system, which results in the snootiness.
But, to address the issue you raised anyway, I simply had/have no desire to wallow in a communal mediocrity just to help these poor sods. Yes, it sounds callous. It is.
Your statement kinda proves my point above.
You can say that the system did not work hard enough to ensure the success of the lowest category of students and that it instead dumped them together in a division leaving them to fend for themselves.
No, I'm not saying that. All I am saying is that while hardcore segregation may lead to better academic results, it leads to fucked up social education. A more balanced approach is required where you make sure that various groups learn to live with each other AND perform to their best abilities at the same time. Again, read the linked post above, it really does provide a more interesting solution.
You're assuming that intelligence == higher marks/grades. That's not always the case.
I've been to a school similar to yours -- 70 students in a classroom, divisions from A to J (in some lower classes you even had K and L). I never thought much about it then but looking at it now it feels as if the better performing students either get pressurized to perform and in some cases break apart (you're an Indian, so I assume you've read of the growing number of student suicides due to seemingly low grades), or they bask in the glory of being in a higher division and become full of themselves. Some even get scared of making mistakes/failing, hence making them overcautious (and hence, often underachieving) by nature.
Also, I knew many who were much smarter/intelligent than the top division and still were among lower divisions merely because they wouldn't/couldn't mug up answers for examinations.
Lastly, it doesn't really help the not-so-smart kids either because they find the company of fellow fuckups (as you described them) and it simply puts them one step away from any sort of reform.
Not really. You've probably forgotten that Linux is a trademark owned by Linus. Either ways, I don't think the kernel developer community (or the kernel for that matter) would remain the same without Linus.
the visa holders seem to mostly be using it as a stepping stone to citizenship
I don't think your sentiment is correct.
I think it is. I'm from India and one of the common 'ambitions' of an Indian, especially software professionals, is being 'US-settled'. A common idea is to go to the US on a student visa, get a job there and convert the student visa into an H1B visa. Step 2, spend 5 years by hook or by crook or marry a green card holder. Mission accomplished.
But India is more like an emerging market than an established one.
True, but the key point is that much of the growth (almost all in fact) is centered around the US, which already has a very dominant windows presence. Hence the OS demand in India is not driven by Indians, it is driven by the people we provide services for, i.e. Americans.
Also, most computer education is centered around Windows starting from MS Office to VC++/.Net (this is changing, albeit very slowly). Due to this many grow up with the belief that Bill gates is a God.
Sincere question: does anyone (or anyone outside Brazil) still use Orkut?
Yes, it's quite a rage here in India and the subcontinent. You could consider it an equivalent of MySpace out here; every teenager (and 20 somethings) with access to the internet has at least one profile on it.
And it's a decent networking site; I regained contact with many of my school friends there.
Believe it or not, I'm currently supporting a software system that does exactly that. If an error condition occurs, it deliberately crashes. When asked why crash the app deliberately instead of, say, automatically email the maintainer with details of the problem, i was told "this way you'll be extra extra careful and ensure that the crash does not happen".
Some won't even understand what the warning means, or some won't even read it - the "OK" button is just too large and tempting to click.
Not some. In the Windows world it's *most*. In the GNU/Linux world (I haven't seen OSX to comment on it) there are no OK/Cancel buttons; it's replaced by the "Please burn me"/"Please don't burn me" like buttons that actually tell the user what they're about to do, making it a bit more difficult for them to avoid reading messages.
An amazing example (only marginally related actually) I guess is apt-get where if you decide to uninstall a critical component (libc6 for example) it makes you type in the exact phrase "Yes, do as I say!" to go ahead.
Slashdot Mirror
24 minutes ;)
I say go sit in the corner and watch me zip through the intertubes. I'm netcat ;)
Oh crap, I replied to the wrong post :P It was meant for the one below (by vux984).
Ok, that is probably the crappiest statistic I've seen. No, don't believe it at all.
Out here in India, Outsourcing salaries for freshers start at 200K INR per annum (small IT shops). For the major outsourcing companies (TCS, Infosys, Satyam, etc.), the numbers can go up to 300K-350K per year. The real bigwigs (IBM, Accenture, etc.) offer up to 400K-450K per year.
At 2 years, one gets around 500k-600k per year. The 10-20 year bracket get anywhere in between 1M-2M per year.
Of course, all figures are in INR. Divide by the current exchange rate to get the amount in USD. But that's a pointless exercise since we spend in INR you see and the amounts I just mentioned are really really good.
Disclaimer: The recession may have changed these figures by a bit, a really small bit though.
And, IMHO, if he means "Linux in general" (as opposed to Red Hat Enterprise Linux), that is a huge mistake, because MS will use its desktop monopoly and control of protocols to limit the penetration of Linux servers.
What he meant by his comment was that he thinks it is difficult to make money out of selling support for Linux desktops, which is why few will actually venture into the serious business of supporting Linux on Desktops.
Supporting Desktops is a challenging exercise due to the variety of hardware (you can't really try to support all of them and make money out of it). This is probably what Jim Whitehurst is sceptical about.
That assumes that you either know the language the kernel or a program is written in, AND have the time to investigate and make the change. Often even professional coders don't have the time to make all the changes to FOSS programs they'd like.
True, but if you want it bad enough, you can pay someone to do it for you.
The problem with Linux is that yes there are critics... BUT the Linux community dismisses them as twits who don't understand or appreciate Linux...
If the Linux community were to take end users seriously and start solving their problems then maybe Linux would move on...
Pay for it and you just might get it. Buy a support subscription from Red Hat/Canonical/Novell and ask them for a feature or report bugs that bother you and you absolutely want fixed. Better yet, hire someone to implement it for you.
It's funny how people confuse the Free for "no money" rather than the freedom that FOSS affords you.
I agree with the sentiment but it is not black and white. Most people in India have lived their entire lives without cars and didn't need it. Their family, work, friends, home were all (for the most part) in relative distances. This car is so cheap they will get it (even if just 1% that's 10 mil more drivers on a 1 billion pop) and eventually need it.
The Nano is actually competition to two wheelers, which is the most popular mode of transport among the lower and middle classes in India. There is a very dangerous practice here in India, of families of 3 and 4 travelling by a scooter/motorcycle, which is what prompted Ratan Tata to conceptualize this car.
It's more to do with the country/region you're trying to look for a job in. Here in India, freelancing, internship, FOSS work does nothing to impress most employers. Quote one manager: "It cannot be counted as valid experience since I'm sure you must not have handled major responsibilities as you would now in a full time job". Yeah, single-handedly migrating applications from Oracle to PostgreSQL and deploying them into production in 2 weeks is not a job requiring responsibility.
I show off my FOSS (ayttm, antidialer) work more prominently than my day job experience, partly because I feel it's more important to me and partly because I want to be sought by employers who understand the relevance of FOSS contributions. But since FOSS contribution has not caught on as much as other parts of the world, most managers dismiss them as "college projects".
It really depends on what the person wants out of his/her computer.
;) (despite the fact that it had me hooked for almost a year)
* An uninformed computer nerd (I know a few at work) needs to know how easy it is to look inside the hood of the OS and various programs. Also, the fact that *nixes (not just Linux) are almost always just *ready* for programming is really very appealing.
* Eyecandy lovers can be easily lured -- Compiz/Beryl.
* Small businesses will find the cost aspect appealing -- especially the typical ones where major usage is only email, surfing, spreadsheets, presentations and document processing. Another appealing factor could be that one can simply "Save as PDF" in OOWriter
* A gamer is the most difficult to get aboard. Anyone know a killer game that only runs Linux? No, not Nethack
Yeah, even I actively chase people down and ask them to google for my name... err, that's not what you meant?
You could actually win a competition for a hash algorithm with this ;)
Sorry, I misread your statement
I don't understand where you deduced this from.
Nope, never had that problem. I was always an A division student.
I actually didn't reach there... your post was actually a bit too long to keep my attention. Sorry
Firstly, I never said that intelligent people are inherently arrogant bastards. Segregation gives them this feeling of eliteness, which can potentially turn them into arrogant bastards.
Secondly, I do agree that some kind of Merit based action is needed; I guess it didn't come out in my previous posts. It's just that I don't think simply separating them out is the solution. It is kinda like caste system, wherein children are exposed to classism at a very young age.
Few people are able to understand and handle such segregation as adults, so you certainly cannot expect children to take it well all the time. And it works both ways -- kids with lower IQ get depressed and churn out their depression in the form of rebellion, violence or introversion. Kids with higher IQ either lose all traces of modesty or become extremely pressured to perform at all times. Some stop performing to their maximum potential and set themselves an acceptable level of performance so that they don't fail. In short, the MS system isn't necessarily the best alternative for them either.
We Indians have always been taught to compete and we continue to pressure our kids to do the same. What we don't realize is that often children are not equipped to handle such pressures. They cope in many cases, but it leaves a mark in some way or the other.
What changes have been made in the system? How have they been instrumental in reducing pressure on the kids? Has child/parent counseling been made compulsory in schools? I'm not talking about career counselors, I'm talking about psychologists.
You're extremely lucky that meritocracy was the only pressure you had in your student life. Many had other problems to cope.
I don't know what it's like in the US but here in India we never had jocks/nerds. In fact, you seem to have forgotten that the nerds are actually the popular ones here.
Well if you keep raising them on a pedestal they will turn out to be arrogant bastards. Read this:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=273143&cid=20
An approach like this is better than hardcore segregation. Segregation works like the caste system, which results in the snootiness.
Your statement kinda proves my point above.
No, I'm not saying that. All I am saying is that while hardcore segregation may lead to better academic results, it leads to fucked up social education. A more balanced approach is required where you make sure that various groups learn to live with each other AND perform to their best abilities at the same time. Again, read the linked post above, it really does provide a more interesting solution.
You're assuming that intelligence == higher marks/grades. That's not always the case.
I've been to a school similar to yours -- 70 students in a classroom, divisions from A to J (in some lower classes you even had K and L). I never thought much about it then but looking at it now it feels as if the better performing students either get pressurized to perform and in some cases break apart (you're an Indian, so I assume you've read of the growing number of student suicides due to seemingly low grades), or they bask in the glory of being in a higher division and become full of themselves. Some even get scared of making mistakes/failing, hence making them overcautious (and hence, often underachieving) by nature.
Also, I knew many who were much smarter/intelligent than the top division and still were among lower divisions merely because they wouldn't/couldn't mug up answers for examinations.
Lastly, it doesn't really help the not-so-smart kids either because they find the company of fellow fuckups (as you described them) and it simply puts them one step away from any sort of reform.
Not really. You've probably forgotten that Linux is a trademark owned by Linus. Either ways, I don't think the kernel developer community (or the kernel for that matter) would remain the same without Linus.
Actually, more like walking on carpet. The difference is that you don't get as much grip on sand, hence making it a more difficult experience.
I think it is. I'm from India and one of the common 'ambitions' of an Indian, especially software professionals, is being 'US-settled'. A common idea is to go to the US on a student visa, get a job there and convert the student visa into an H1B visa. Step 2, spend 5 years by hook or by crook or marry a green card holder. Mission accomplished.
True, but the key point is that much of the growth (almost all in fact) is centered around the US, which already has a very dominant windows presence. Hence the OS demand in India is not driven by Indians, it is driven by the people we provide services for, i.e. Americans.
Also, most computer education is centered around Windows starting from MS Office to VC++/.Net (this is changing, albeit very slowly). Due to this many grow up with the belief that Bill gates is a God.
Yes, it's quite a rage here in India and the subcontinent. You could consider it an equivalent of MySpace out here; every teenager (and 20 somethings) with access to the internet has at least one profile on it.
And it's a decent networking site; I regained contact with many of my school friends there.
Believe it or not, I'm currently supporting a software system that does exactly that. If an error condition occurs, it deliberately crashes. When asked why crash the app deliberately instead of, say, automatically email the maintainer with details of the problem, i was told "this way you'll be extra extra careful and ensure that the crash does not happen".
I don't think many pirated software users care much for updates.
Not some. In the Windows world it's *most*. In the GNU/Linux world (I haven't seen OSX to comment on it) there are no OK/Cancel buttons; it's replaced by the "Please burn me"/"Please don't burn me" like buttons that actually tell the user what they're about to do, making it a bit more difficult for them to avoid reading messages.
An amazing example (only marginally related actually) I guess is apt-get where if you decide to uninstall a critical component (libc6 for example) it makes you type in the exact phrase "Yes, do as I say!" to go ahead.
Often people are raised to believe that bosses will never understand and they're just there to make your life hell, so never trust them.