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World's Cheapest Car Goes On Sale In India
Frankie70 writes "The Tata Nano — the car that caught the world's imagination as the cheapest ever — will finally be rolled out commercially on Monday in Mumbai in a mega event organised by Tata Motors. Ben Oliver, contributing editor, Car Magazine, London test drove the car in December, 08. These were his first impressions. This was his verdict: 'CAR's first ride in the Tata Nano felt far more significant and exciting than a first drive in a Ferrari or Lamborghini, because this car's importance is immeasurably greater. It won't compete on dynamics or quality with European or Japanese city cars, but it doesn't have to. What Tata has achieved at an unprecedented price is astonishing, although we'd guess it will cost Indian consumers closer to £1700 when it finally goes on sale, six months late, in March 2009.'"
... or maybe a Tata Shuffle, with the steering controls obnoxiously embedded in some earbuds?
The UK and Europe as well as the USA will never EVER see this car.
And honestly, is it really a good idea to enable more people to buy cars?
I could see it if a very low emissions small car was available to the poor to help get the nasty junk off the road...
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Wow, that's some hyperbole. A tuktuk is a sort of moped with a roof, and this Nano is a tuktuk with doors. Maybe he's talking about his first ride in a cardboard box in the "exciting" traffic flows in India - go ahead and search for that in YouTube.
[
Those of us old enough to remember the 1980s remember the Yugo, which was touted then as the cheapest car ever: $3990 when they debuted in the U.S. in 1987 (bear in mind that the U.S. has much tougher safety and emissions standards than India).
It was tried here and failed miserably, especially after the general consensus among the consumer rags, especially Consumer Reports, was that you were better of with a used car than a new Yugo.
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So basically it's "safe enough for India" but you couldn't sell it as-is anywhere that has vehicle safety standards.
Of course, you probably couldn't sell a Geo Metro or a Honda CRX (two 1980's high mileage cars) as a new car in the US today either for the same reasons.
I'm not convinced that changing the vehicular population makeup of India from bicycles and scooters to have a higher volume of these actually raises the overall safety of the traveling population - and it surely doesn't improve the fuel economy.
For those of us who are used to dollars, according to Google, the base price of 1700 pounds in the article is about $2500.
The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
Great, a more affordable vehicle hits the roads so that more people can increase their carbon footprints and increase oil consumption. A few gas guzzlers or many more efficient vehicles. The result's the same.
Nate
I think Indian infrastructure is going to have a hard time coping with this.
Tried getting anywhere in New Delhi recently? A 10km ride can take HOURS. I'm not exaggerating or kidding. You will literally stand in one spot for half an hour. Nobody obeys traffic rules and gridlock is the norm.
The Indian middle class is looking to copy the west, and they want their SUVs and their tall lattes too.
In late afternoon in New Delhi (about 6:00pm or so), you can STARE AT THE SUN without feeling any queasiness in your eyes. That's how bad the pollution is.
Instead of looking to other cultures and trying to NOT make the same mistakes, India is eager to copycat them. Heh... you think Americans go a little bit overboard with the bling and the super-size-me? Just wait.. just wait.
-Laxitive
So am I to believe that before this car there was no "cheepest car" in the world?
It won't compete on dynamics or quality with European or Japanese city cars, but it doesn't have to.
That is precisely how the Japanese "came from behind" in the late seventies and ended up capturing the American mindset when it comes to quality.
I know what I am talking about because I was around at that time. No body would even think of touching a Japanese front wheel drive car! Guess what! It is second nature to most auto manufacturers now.
I guess it's the time for the Indians this time round. Let's just watch out after all, Tata's direction on quality can only be up.
Can't wait to see The Stig powersliding this baby around the Top Gear test track.
Did anyone else notice Tata Motor's other models. They are all fricking rip-offs of other manufacturers cars. They all look like Toyotas. It seems like a copy-me company got too good at manufacturing and decided to do something innovative.
India's carbon footprint will be going up no matter what we do. The Nano has a good MPG rating. Better than many hybrids. It's a good thing, not a pollution machine.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
there are also federal (and state) regulations governing automobiles in the US.
there are also federal and state regulations and taxes governing damn near everything and anything in the US.
There, fixed that for ya.
Seriously, look at it. 12" wheels, and how tall and narrow it is!
But looking at what it's designed for, it appears to be very well thought-out. Anyone that's driven in europe can understand why you need a narrow car because of the streets. And anything that gets your side mirror another half inch away from oncoming traffic's mirrors is a good thing, and then of course there's parking. (no mention of how well it turns to squeeze into a tight spot?) For an in-town car in a big city, it looks to be ideally suited. 60mpg? Heck I could use that right now.
It said it accomodates "six footers". I'm 6'2, I wonder if I'll be cracking my head on the roof?
Considering the next-to-nonexistent trunk, it's NOT a family trip car, unless you're a family of two. The back seat really IS the trunk, and the trunk is the glovebox.
But I wouldn't mind trying one. I wonder what it's top speed is, they only tested it to 60mph and it took 17 sec to get there, i wonder if it can do 70? I have to take an interstate to work here and it's 70 in places.
I'd also be interested to know its range. At 60mpg though, I wonder what speed that's at? Most larger cars, that's measured at highway speed (55?) and is lower for in-town. This car is targeted almost exclusively for in-town so that's not the number I want to hear. It's not a hybrid so it lacks the regenerative breaking bonus for in-town driving. (unless the thing's got a flywheel? heh) I'm picturing it getting more like 40mph in-town, and guessing at a 5gal tank, so that'd be about a 200 mile in-town range, which I could certainly live with. My exploder gets 300 miles on the highway, 240 in town. It'd shave 70% off my total at the pump too which would be wonderful.
The review was ok but missed a lot, I'd like to have seen 7 pages, not 2. Airbags I hope? looks to be manual only. (can you smell my clutch yet?) And it doesn't look like they let him drive it, which worries me a little.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
Man, I hope you're not being serious right now. You can see that it's co.uk web site so it is designed for British population. It kinda makes sense to put price in pounds rather than in rupees as most of British people (or at least many of them) don't know how much rupee is, right?
My Windows is NOT slow, it's special!
There are a handful of things fundamental to this existence, regardless of where you live. On the "basic survival" end of the spectrum, you've got shelter, water, and food.
If you seek something more than just basic subsistence, the list expands to include energy, communications, and transportation.
If you believe that a modern society is beneficial, then providing more accessible transportation is a good thing. If you believe we should all be subsistence farmers, then the Tata Nano is a plague upon the land.
This is the year of the netbook, the cheap car, and next thing you know, they'll be selling houses made out of cardboard for dirt cheap, too.
There won't be more oil consumed, because we have already hit peak oil. What will happen instead is that the price of oil will go up and make it uneconomic for the bottom end of US economy to use their cars. This will cause another recession and the US will respond by hyperinflating their currency, until people in America are no wealthier than people in India or China.
You are seeing the rise of the new empires and the fall of the old, corrupt one. Unless of course the US government manage to persuade Saudi to continue to sell oil only in US paper.
Deleted
A Lamborghini or Ferrari is essentially an irrelevent car because it is prohibitively expensive and impractical as a means of transportation. I think what they are trying to say is that this is like India's "Model T" - the car that most people can afford and will actually buy.
It's a British rag, so the gallons they refer to in the article are imperial gallons. In US terms, it gets 50mpg, not 60.
the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White
$4 per gallon? I really don't understand how Americans can complain about that. Those of us living in the land of tea-drinking and monarchy would frankly kill for it.
Immolation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Someone also mocks the Ferrari/Lamborghini comparison. Wrong. To an engineer - that's a real, chartered engineer, not just a jumped up mechanic - Ferraris and Lamborghinis are not very interesting. An example. Evolutionary biologists point out that horses are interesting, not because they are a successful design, but because they are a bit of a failed one. Very few of the world's species are horse based, whereas the beetle design, the bat design, and even the primate design have been wildly successful. (Or look at the dog design, which has proved amazingly flexible, scaling well to a wide range of sizes.) In the same way, few people are motivated to buy Ferraris, whereas the European small hatchback design has proven wildly successful and is the basis of most of the cars on the world's roads, scaling all the way from the Smart car to the "people carrier". The Tata design is interesting because it is likely to be the precursor of what most of the world's drivers are using in 20 years time.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Seriously. That thing is a death trap.
I have a bad feeling about this...
Did anybody care to read the whole article and found that the $2000 car does NOT have power steering, ABS and airbags?
Worth the offtopic..So the chief aid to the guy your are trying to portray as a Muslim is a Zionist. I guess you have not fully thought through the meaning of your bigotry.
Why would you want a car in such a densely populated country? Where is everyone going to park? The tube/metro/subway and train systems in Europe work very well. Granted its overcrowded during peak time. But this is the system to follow. Why on Earth would you wan to followed the flawed North American system? How much oil would the country need to import to keep people on the road? Yikes!
I think Cardboard would be a step up from American houses which are made of paper and chalk (yeah thats what drywall is)
Fuel consumption will be around 60mpg, and emissions around 100g/km;
I've been to India, and big cities like Delhi are so polluted it smells like you have your mouth around the back of a Mack truck. I went for a wedding, and the groom had to wear a face mask because his lungs couldn't handle it. Our flight out of Rajasthan was delayed because of "fog" - but this is desert. By "fog" they meant low-lying pollution.
I'm not sure if this will lead to more cars in India: But this car is much cleaner than the 20+ year old dilapidated taxis that are mainstream in india now. Those things blow visible smoke out of the back, so this might actually help the pollution problem.
I think what is needed in India is cheaper food prices, have you noticed the costs of grocery in India ? It has increased 3 times every year over the last 10yrs. If TATA wants to be philanthropist he should figure out a way to lower food & grain prices.
Who's the idiot who modded parent insightful. The inbred redneck does not even know that telling lies is not the same as being Insightful Rush Limbaugh notwithstanding. Indian pollution standards are stricter than America's and California's.They match European standards and the Nano meets the future Euro V standard which even Europe has not shifted to yet. Car insurance is compulsory and everyone has at least 3rd party insurance. Every car has to go through a pollution check after every year and cars older than 15 years are mandatorily junked. Seat belts are compulsory. Air Bags are not as most Indian traffic is inside cities and at lower speed collisions Air bags cause more injuries than they prevent. People who plan to do cross country drives buy larger more expensive cars with air bags. The so called American way of life is just 80 years old and based on cheap Texas and Alaska oil and industrial farming on empty farmland(grabbed through genocide). I dont see Americans as any superior/innovative/industrious than the Sheikhs who traded in their camels for BMWs when they found oil. The American century has been built on a resource boom. Whatever innovation has happened has been done by first generation immigrants. Now that the cheap resources are running out , the smart people will stop immigrating and the center of the world is bound to shift back to India-China which have for 99% of history been the biggest economies of the world. As for gas prices India already has high gas taxes to encourage fuel conservation. Gas costs around 5 dollar a gallon currently and people drive accordingly with no wasted trips.
**Life is too short to be serious**
Very Very Very Light Vehicles are the wave of the future. They are cute, affordable, get great gas mileage or run on electric. Buy a moped or VVVLV and get a tax break. That's the ticket.
Learn About Outsourcing. http://www.pioutsource.com
Wait a minute... Are you saying the Indians should NOT have cars because it might cause YOU to pay more per gallon so you can fill up your stinking Hummer?
That somehow, you, by virtue of being an American, DESERVE the gasoline more than someone else (and at the ridiculously cheap price of ONLY $4 a gallon, a price the rest of the world would frankly kill for), so you can drive anyplace you like in luxury while the rest of the world can go kiss off??
And you wonder why the rest of the world hates Americans?
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
Count the zeroes. You said 29 billion and not 29 million. Even the entire worlds population including babies and children is still 6 billion :) Granted reading everyday about the govt doing billion dollar bailouts, trillion dollar stimuluses and million dollar bonuses people cant really be blamed for mixing up their millions with their billions.
**Life is too short to be serious**
It seems that India has finally started to address their population issue. This will speed up the death rate through both fatal collisions, and increased pollution.
Congratulations India, you're on track to zero population growth within a decade.
Believe me, I think it's long overdue.
Now, if you could just adopt some basic sanitation, your country might actually become pleasant ------ in about 100 years.
Actually there's a feature length documentary that explains in detail that actually an electric automobile is viable for roughly 95% of drivers.
They travel at a reasonable speed (50 to 120mph) and get excellent mileage (roughly 300mpg about $1 to "fill the tank")
When charged using solar or renewable resources, they are zero emissions.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5871495968130273402
Roughly 90 minutes on google video... watch it.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/ (imdb)
http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/ official site.
Why didn't General Motors go forward with electric vehicles? They didn't break down often enough.
But since we kept pushing other drivers off the road and going the wrong way... we were thrown out
Moderation 0
50% Troll
50% Insightful
My post about buying one of these cars in the US was no "troll": it was factual and logical. If these trollmods disagree, they can do so. Instead, they anonymously try to hide the comment. Because it's correct, and that scares them.
--
make install -not war
It is a car, with four wheels etc. They did their best to make it as cheap as possible (to produce?) but that does not mean that your preconceived ideas about it are all true. It is designed as an alternative to a real moped/motorcycle and as such it is much safer. Yes your smalldick SUV would be safer too, but a bus would be safer still.
This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
Which countries are predominantly automatic-driving places? USA, famous for it. I think quite a lot of folk in Turkey drive automatics. But I'd be interested to know what the breakdown is across the rest of the world. My impression is "driving with a clutch" is more common than "driving with automatic only".
Here in the UK it's the norm to drive with a clutch driven car. People are generally encouraged to learn to drive with a clutch driven car because the UK manual licence lets you drive an automatic, but not vice versa.
My experience was the opposite to yours - when a friend got married in the USA a few years ago I had to grab hold of him as we walked towards the rental place at the airport and ask "dude, how do I drive an automatic car? I've never driven one before". A couple of hours on the Miami freeways at rush hour taught me how to drive a US automatic (plus remembering everything is on the other side of the road) pretty fast... :-)
What about a car powered by air? Personally, if the cost were right, I'd get this one.
Take your current price, double it. Prices are relative. I didn't comment on UK prices because I didn't know what they were. What were your prices last summer? What are they now? What do you think they will be?
I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
This is interesting considering that India has participated in the ongoing battle to make things cheap.
I imagine the cars are cheap because they saved on web server costs?
Yeah, there is a reason we make it expensive, only few people should have a car...
if we all had cars, it would be 1 billion in India helping the pollution problem along.
Do these cars run on electricity atleast??? That would be worth the while, as well, by having such a big volume of sales helps push the price of the car even lower, thereby making the electric car technology that much cheaper....but unfortunately I am sure this is a gas car as well.
Actually there are going to be versions for the European marker
- here.
In "unrelated" news: World's unsafest car was also launched today.
I mean look at that thing, it looks like you would die in it at in a 10 mph collision.
The driving exam is a joke here. If you correctly answer 6 out of 10 multiple choice questions (mostly "guess the taffic sign" ones) you get a learners licence.
Questions about traffic signs? whats wrong with that? what else do you want them to ask? Algebra? Management theory? Remember, its only for the "learners" license.
1 month later you get the full licence, provided that you can drive 100m without incident.
The License issuing officials will ask you to drive a "8" shaped or "S" shaped track without making mistakes. Thats not easy for most beginners, and i think there are similar tests in other countries as well.
On the other hand the Tata Nano seems to be a scaled-up rickshaw rather than a scaled-down car.
Scaled up rickshaw? what was that supposed to mean? A rickshaw doesn't even have an engine!
@bytta : Don't know which state you are from, in mine, it is different (Kerala) [http://www.keralamvd.gov.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=53&Itemid=89] There is a CBE exam with some 20 questions, you need to pass at least 12 to go for the ''test'', later you have to take an ''H'' in front of an officer. Then you have to show then that you can drive in the road.. Now they are going to install cameras to make sure everyone is given licenses only after passing the test via ''proper'' means. India is a big country, so everything here, you can see the quality being rated from all values from the left to right of the number line. (Negative to Positive)
Why not compare the US to Africa ... you would get the same result.
Look. China loves these comparisons because it makes them look good. Why not compare numbers when only using people with X miles of a metropolitan area. That would make more sense.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
. . .Most people in India have lived their entire lives without cars and didn't need it. . . .
According to a recent National Public Radio author interview, 40% of the population of India still has no access to plumbing much less money to purchase toilet paper.
Cars are used by the populace for access to better paying jobs and increased standard of living.
It is true that during the industrial revolution of the 1800's that many major US cities (like Pittsburgh) has blackened skies and lung diseases for decades on end.
It is also true that in the 1900's, some major US (and US/Candian) waterways were so polluted that THEY CAUGHT FIRE.
But in the end, this industrialization led to longer life expectancies and higher standards of living. (And later, much LESS polluting industries.)
While I don't want to breath ANY air pollution, I want even more that everyone around the world be given the economic opportunities given to me by the fact that I happened to be born in the US.
So in the end I commend Tata for bringing this vehicle to market. If a less polluting yet equally performing and cost-effective exists, I trust India to eventually find and promote it.
Live Long and Prosper - Thanks Leonard. You are missed.
Being an Indian... I can say for a fact that these cars could be really bad for India.
1. Increase traffic, which is already bad.
2. Increase air pollution. In a lot of locations fuel is adulterated.
3. Leads to increase in traffic accident deaths. Buses and trucks drive like they own the road, and with no safety features, chances of survival are minimal.
does anyone have photos of the automobile?
I'd love to see the return of the Peel 50, with an contemporary engine, but otherwise as raw, cute and unsophisticated as it was when last in production on the Isle of Man.
Stick a modern scooter engine and CVT in a lightweight chassis and composite body shell and I'll be salivating for it!
http://microcarmuseum.com/video/p50.html
It's actually back down to about $2/gallon. I've been driving around in second gear for the past week just to be a dirty, filthy, CO2-emitting American.
... for the chance to walk into a car dealership and say, "Show me your Tatas!" They would do well to hire all women salespersons... I would point out that they already have Tata dealerships in the US -- that is to say, Tata Motors bought Jaguar and Landrover/RangeRover from Ford last year.
NPR.org
... you hear that I sold my '72 Gremlin for $50.00
Use your head, can't you, use your head,
You're on earth, there's no cure for that - S. Beckett
Got it. Only white people have free will, and control their own destinies and everyone else's destiny at the same time. The democratically elected government of India has nothing to do with what they allow in their country. /sarcasm off.
The problem with blaming everything on Whitey and/or the United States is it essentially reduces everyone else in the world to a pile of simple neurons that only react to what We do. It's the most racist, condescending attitude one could possibly have.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
For dog's sake, why would anyone think I was being serious? My comment was clearly in jest. What the fuck is wrong with people?
... and then they built the supercollider.
These days, everyone's talking about the Tata Nano. Nice car, if you've got $2,000 or $3,000 to throw around. But, for those of us whose name doesn't happen to be Rockefeller, finally there's some good news - a car with a sticker price of $179. That's right, $179. The name of the car?
Adobe. The sassy new Mexican import that's made out of clay. German engineering and Mexican know-how helped create the first car to break the $200 barrier. At this price, you might not expect more than reliable transportation - but, brother, you get it! Extra features: like the custom contour seats, or the beverage-gripping dash. And the money you save isn't exactly small change!
Flexible bare-metal recovery for Linux/UNIX
The high grounds and moral preaching of some people nonwithstanding, there is some truth in concerns about pollution. Many indians say the same thing themselves. Although most people overestate it.
I have lived, owned and driven a car in Mumbai and I now I live in a small US city & drive a gas guzzling SUV. I have known both sides of the coin well.
While the worry of increased pollution by few more million cars may be understandable, the prospect of such a thing happening very rapidly because of this car are slim. Reason : using a car is a very frustrating experience in many major indian cities. I owned a Hyundai Santro- somewhat similar in size to a Toyota Yaris - but preferred using a shared vehicle (similar to van pooling) for daily work commute; to avoid traffic/parking space problems. To most people living in Indian cities who can afford spending 2000-3000 dollars on car, already there are plenty of options in 5000-8000 range and credit available. Many people in this segment actually do not own a car out of choice. These people are not suddenly going to be tempted to buy a car just because one's available for a couple thousand dollars less.
Another typical use of cars in American cities : long distance from city to city . Not many Indians - even those who own a car - take this route. The condition of roads outside major cities as well as fuel prices are not favorable to do that; and affordtable/comfortable public (or hired like Greyhound) transport options are available.
So who will buy this car ? A lot of people living in suburbs away from the city centers / smaller towns. To these people, the road conditions are good enough to use a car regularly and the price is sweet. As you can guess, they don't need something to haul lot of stuff, or drive between cities. For smaller commutes on decent roads, this car will be perfect. But to think that there will be 100 million of such people is laughable.
As to safety, this car is definitely much better than riding a bike in Indian cities. I personally know four cases where someone nearly died in a bike crash.
Personally, I'd buy this car a heartbeat , right here in US. Safety? Yes, I know this car has fewer safety features. But for a short commute through a not too big city, and being a safe driver myself, I'm more than willing to buy one for the price tag.
I could use a new car for 2k for sure, In fact I I don't even have a car now because of funds !
"Nice tatas!"
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
How many GM execs are lining up for this? Very soon they would require this to keep their houses. Sad but true.
You forgot tags [:
My Windows is NOT slow, it's special!
Ah crap, forgot that /. parses tags :b Supposed to be.
You forgot <irony></irony> tags [:
My Windows is NOT slow, it's special!
have you heard of a chap called Bush?
and his buddies in Saudi and investment banking and futures?
and an agency called the CIA?
And of course the local bastards - the BJP?
Ramar Pillai was ridiculed by the western media and US auto makers are now in effect doing just that - making part of the fuel from plants.
Dow, Union Carbide, Enron and such other corps rape all countries they operate in.
Both govts share the blame, directly.
We are blessed with lots of Hydro but that proportion of power production/consumption is getting worse not better. In Vancouver now most of the power is from fuel burning. BC Hydro doesn't advertise this image much.
Damn Dams destroy huge areas and the CO2 from the rotting underwater vegetation is not insignifigant.
Actually Canada isn't doing as much as most other countries. We are clean by virtue of having fewer people and lots of nature to soak it up. per-capity we are worse than the USA in many areas.
And no, we don't "need" cars, we just, as the rest of the world, are too dense to choose the sensible alternatives. (because they cost more and require more cooperation at the start but less over the long term)
Distance is more of a major factor with Hydro. Something like 50% of electricity generated is lost to long distance transmission lines.
Stupidity is its own reward.
I'll take the offtopic too, and... ...I'll have to admit I read the post, and I didn't see where he said Obama was a Muslim; I think you misread it.
Our only hope is that, with the long time it takes to "pave the way" and reconfigure a country around the private automobile (India, China) That those of us in the rest of the world will start wising up and stop building our cities around cars.
Otherwise we're all doomed:
Open Library: The Endless Pavement
Stupidity is its own reward.
Or perhaps a more positive spin: You really have it better there without cars.
People WILL give up cars willingly. Many do now. Bicycles are infinitely superior in most cities, all it takes is some geekiness to figure out how to do it.
We need a mind shift and we need people to be able to imagine Car-Free cities as thriving. It shouldn't be hard, Car-Free areas thrive even when they are put in to replace car-areas in cities that have become built around cars. But it's a massive undertaking and there are opponents to this change with really deep pockets (The auto and oil industries are connected pretty solidly to the military industries too)
The US is a hard place to change due to a long history of privatising public spaces (the essence of car space culture) but look at places like Portland and Davis, CA, what it takes is willpower most of all.
Stupidity is its own reward.
forgo the hassle of a car!
You're right things are designed around cars and furniture, groceries and jobs... everything is part of it.
But the benefits are greater. People NEED to belong to community more than they need a certain particular thing or habit. Everyone who does it is happy afterwards. But it can't be done alone or as an individual because you just have to give up. On the other hand a little support (like helping a friend fix a flat bicycle tire and going riding together to share good routes, or just talking to your neighbours in the local park) helps much more than the effort put in.
Stupidity is its own reward.
Imagine the whole world was a sphere of eternally edible cheese along with an atmosphere. In the beginning there are two beings on the world who divide up the world into equal halves, 'A' and 'B'. When they eat the cheese they produce and release CO2 pollution into the atmosphere. They reproduce asexually. 'A' has two kids and then dies, leaving half of the world for them. 'B' has 10 kids and then dies and these 10 share half the world of cheese. The As live in luxury and eat a lot and produce a lot of pollution per capita. The Bs live less luxuriously and cannot eat a lot because they have to share and so produce less pollution per capita. Is the A society really at fault here where the B society is somehow victimised by A for not making room for them to consume more per capita? I don't think so, if the Bs are victimised, they are victimised by their parent, not by As.
This is not actually how the world is. I'm just trying to point out that it's not ipso facto a sign of moral decadence in one group of people that they consume a lot. It could just be that, in the past, members of that society foresaw that a high level of consumption would be desirable for future generations and so acted accordingly to make room for that. Obviously in the real world this happened not just through lower birthrates (and even just also technological development), but also through exploitation, etc. But there's no reason to automatically assume that a society should be given as much room as they need ("each according to her needs") to reach a certain standard of living, as this does nothing to stymie the very real threat of expansionism through unsustainable reproduction.
So really, I guess the standard for comparison I'm advocating is, in contrast to "level of consumption or level of pollution per capita", is "level of consumption or level of pollution per unit of land or unit of property justly gained".* Now we just have to sort out what justice is. I'm sure that will go quickly...
* Maybe there's some better characterisation of this.
I won't lie, I love big Tatas. This world's-smallest-tatas thing doesn't sit well with me.
and not to forget TATA are also the current owners of the luxury car brand, Jaguar
if you'd consider the original mission -- it looks like its the new old VW Volkswagen...
Obama Policies Will Bankrupt the USA Tsarkon Reports
- President Barak "The Teleprompter" Obama is deeply connected to corruption, Rahm Emanuel (Radical authoritarian Statist whose father was part of the Murderous Civilian Killing Israeli Terrorist Organization known as IRGUN), Connected to Rod Blagojevich (Rahm inherited Rod's federal-congress seat), Connected to Ayers, a man who promotes the concept that civilian collateral damage is ok in a war against freedom, Preacher Jeremiah Wright, who is himself a black-elitist who wants all the people who largely "pay the freight" to suffer, 31 million on food stamps, more blacks are in prison and on food-stamps per capita than anyone else. The problem with Wright is simply this: the facts are "racist."
- Obama: Racist, AIPAC-bootlicker, Corrupted to the bone Chicago style and a Traitor to the US Constitution and a Liar who can't even produce a valid birth certificate (which is not a certificate of live birth)
- Raytheon lobbyist in Pentagon, lots lobbyists getting exemptions even though he promised not to have them.
- Goldman Sachs insider second in command at Treasury. Bumbling tax cheat idiot in "command" of Treasury with 17 positions unfilled as of late March 2009.
- Cabinet has had several nominees and appointees with multiple tax fraud issues.
- Lied about having a new degree of accountability and a SUNSHINE period of new laws, he has signed bills with little or no review at whitehouse.gov as promised.
- Appointed a second amendment violating Rich-pardoning treasonist Eric Holder as AG, the top cop of the USA, a man who helped a fugitive evade justice.
- Has not put a dime in for a single new nuclear power plant but wants to help bridges and roads to promote more driving.
- Obama, Blagojevich and Rahm Emanuel have a LOT to hide. They literally lived next to each other, Rahm had (until being Chairman Obama's Chief of staff) Blagojevich's old federal congressional seat. Blagojevich helped Chairman "The Teleprompter" Obama cheat his way to the Illinois senate by getting other candidates thrown off the ballot in Illinois. Why do you think Blagojevich was so mad? Obama DID owe him, big time. Rahm and Obama are using Blagojevich and trying to cut his head off to keep him away.
- Tony Rezko, Iraqi Arms Dealer Nahdmi Auchi, and of course Aiham Alsammarae. Chairman "The Teleprompter" Hussein Obama is so corrupted its a joke.
- Fools and "useful idiots" twist the pie charts by leaving welfare, workfare, interest on debt, social security, Medicare and Medicaid out and focusing only on non-whole "discretionary" pie charts.
2007 high level pie chart, Federal Budget, USA
2009 Pie chart, detailed, Federal Budget, USA
- Chairman Obama is drastically increasing spending and creating more entitlements that will make the US less competitive (especially against China, India, East Europe/Russia). This will be a huge disaster and change you can believe in will strap you and your grandkids with more debt. No taxation without representation? Obama is spending money for the next two-three generations and they can't even vote yet, or even have been born.
- An alternative to the dollar and a forex and a reserve currency came up at the last G20 meeting. The world will not take faith in Obama's liar-socialist spending and welfare state, why should the taxpayers (plebian citizen-slaves of a police state).
- The spending going on now vastly eclipses all previous spending. In fact, the massive trillion plus debts is a thing of the 80's onwards. Congress signs the checks, remember that Year after year, as egregious as the pentagon spending is, that the social spending is completely a waste of money and it is unfunded over the long term. Eisenhower built the interstates, the US could build a new power infrastructure with this money but instead is being pissed into crea
Competition, whether on price or quality, is a beautiful thing, and the idea that a 67mpg car is bad for the environment is too complex for me to follow.
They can't get those little Indian buggers over here fast enough for me. I want to buy a used one for, what?, $150?
Wonderful. By the time India builds out its petroleum-based transportation infrastructure we will have no oil and emerging will become submerging.
Just because the U.S. did something does not mean its a good idea to follow.
RON PAUL FTW!
I lol'd
Sent from my desktop computer
I am with ricgf on this one.... Its wise to listen from someone who has done a mistake and decide not to go on the same path... cheers to TATA's thou.. its a wonderful car.
I wonder how one of these demi-cars would behave if given the hot rod treatment with a tiny turbo or something.
Maybe this is one of those few times where you can effectively increase horsepower with those retarded electric superchargers the rice boys were putting on their Civics a few years back.
Not a bad idea with such a tiny engine. Hit the motor when you're accelerating and the alternator is putting out more juice than your charging system is equipped to deal with.
Maybe you could go zero to sixty in "Yes."?
You don't hear me harping on dump trucks, bulldozers, and semis do you? No. Unless 90% of them were used when absolutely not necessary, and then you would. Get it?
The whole point of an SUV is to intimidate the other drivers (so they let you go first) and let you look down/over them.
I like the way you think, particularly regarding the bulldozer. That'll be my next ride. I especially like those up-armored ones that are designed for removing Palestinian houses. Even the Lincoln Navigator and Chevy Suburban drivers will cower in fear, allowing me to visit Starbucks in safety and security.
..a motorcycle or scooter replacement, those folks are already motorized. You have whole families there trying to ride plus carry their stuff on some (I mean one, single) small scooter, so which is safer again? And the scooters by and large actually produce more tailpipe emissions, being 2 strokes in a lot of cases.
His argument is, here in north america, we made the huge mistake of designing communities such that a vehicle was a requirement for living. In particular, the suburban and ex-urban phenomenon has left your average American completely incapable of living without personal long-distance transportation.
Yep. The ugly truth is that this was triggered by desegregation. Once you could no longer enforce a little island within the city, anybody with the means to live elsewhere did exactly that.
And this phenomenon is coupled with a truly massive underfunding of public transportation [...] The solution is to build communities where cars *aren't necessary in the first place*.
Uh, well, bus stops devalue your property. This is because they make it possible for people without cars to live in your community. People who can't afford cars are people who make a community less desirable. You'll get more littering, muggings, graffiti, prostitution, meth labs... You want to raise children in a place like that?
This is related to some of the reasons we don't even like to ride busses. We might have to sit next to a smelly bum, a pedophile, or worse. Remember that guy in Canada who chopped of the head of the guy sitting next to him. We want isolation from that class of people.
move to a metropolitan area or some other planned community where you have everything you need within walking distance
Planned communities are much of the problem. I know a city that is 100% home owner association for housing by city ordinance/bylaw/whatever. All non-housing stuff (which is very little indeed) is deliberately forced to be far away from the housing. Most everyone must commute to other cities to work.
The people there could move out, sure, but then other people would move in. The city has been built. There is no remotely realistic way to fix that city, even if the residents were to decide that it should be fixed. (and of course they love their city exactly the way it is) Properties are tied up in draconian deed restrictions. Fixing such a city would probably require heavy-handed measures involving eminent domain and bulldozers.
US culture has taught people that standard of living == quarter acre in the middle of nowhere. And that's crap.
That's definitely crap. If your neighbor has a McMansion on a lot that small, there won't be room enough to have forest between the houses.
Your neighbor can listen in on you. You'd better hope you **never** have an argument with your spouse or kids.
You will listen in on him, like it or not. You get to hear him cranking Britney Spears to 11. Your kids get to hear him swear, in graphic detail. You wake to the sound of his Harley or H2.
You might smell his barbeque, pool, cigar, fertilizer, or dog shit. You could get hit by his fireworks. His cat will poop in your child's sandbox.
Maybe you can even see the ugly bastard sometimes, or at least his house.
We built our cities with the assumption that transportation would be cheap.
If fuel prices rise, everybody else wins relative to America. They can tolerate high prices. Americans can't. High prices collapse the American economy for good.
CAR's first ride in the Tata Nano felt far more significant and exciting than a first drive in a Ferrari or Lamborghini
Emphasis mine.
I have never driven Ferrari or a Lamborghini but I can tell the writer is an utter moron. I'm fine with pushing compares to make a point but this is ridiculous. Compare the car with a high quality compact car which costs 10 times more and whose customers will shy away from an ugly little piece of shit like the Nano.
Imagine this guy at a cocktail party making a point for the stone age.
I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
They don't want public transit because a car-based community is a way to discourage the lower classes from moving into the community. With them would come crime, a drop in property value, and so on.
While this issue is often looked upon in a racial light, economic discrimination is actually a far more accurate filter. Few would object to living near people like Clarence Thomas, Prince, or (once retired) Obama.
I'm actually in favour of China's way of viewing these numbers: Pollution caused by production should be added to the consuming country's score, not where they've outsourced their production to.
That would put the US right back on top, and by a healthy margin.
Its really not gonna be any surprise when bollywood stars, celebrities and fame will come to award nights or any socio-entertain event to market nano and to spread a word to the world about keeping low profile in oppose those fronts like driving big-cars and changing batteries frequently. people are really need to know how much that costs to enviroment. I was very surpised to see bullock-carts still active in India, china, still on other hand they have moon missions. this is really a great balance these countries do have.