and Elons plan is working perfectly. he cant build all the necessary tech and infrastructure himself. trigger a space race and the tech WILL get developed by a multitude of startups for those specific needs. It's a a sensible method!
What if they are interested at an early age? My son is 5, and after seeing me messing about with Logo, wanted to know how to play the 'turtle game'. Within a day he was creating repeated structures and can now draw better with logo than he can with pencil and paper ( not that he is bad at that ).
It helped him develop his maths, reading and rational thinking skills.
Offer them the opportunity at any age - if they show an interest, support it. if they don't, then show them something else new, and see if it interests them.
Quick, lets make sure everyone only has a basic understanding of the world around them! Let's not teach them critical and analytical methods! Lets make sure they only understand things well enough to be happy ignorant consumers!
Simple programming in childhood teaches some very useful general skills with regards to understanding how processes happen. You don't need teachers or parents to have more knowledge, you just need them to impart a way of thinking that doesn't resolve to :
1. I do something... 2. ??? 3. Profit!
They need to understand that step 2 may be a lot more interesting than 'someone elses problem'.
You can teach that level of critical and analytical thought without going near a computer - but if the kid is interested, it puts them in a good position for when they do want to do something with computers, and if they aren't interested, it at least puts the concept of analytical thought, and working through a problem systematically as an option in their mind, rather than 'its too hard... why cant you spoon feed me?' .
If you teach that level of critical thought, the good habits online become easier to teach, because you can present a situation, and the kids can evaluate the consequences.
You don't need to teach kids how to build a house, or engineer a car, but if they can understand a little of the methods needed to work out what is needed to do so, the process of learning any skill in future becomes easier.
yes, your sarcasm is right on the mark. There are religious people who are sensible and considered, and there are scientists with strong biases. But science as a system promotes the biases being noticed and removed from the understanding of a subject, whereas religions in general do not promote that kind of understanding - a few individual religious thinkers have shown good sense ( Thomas Aquinas and Augustine of Hippo come to mind - but their philosophies were derived from Platonic thought) but most end up integrating dumb ideas in to what usually starts as a decent religion and turn it in to a self-contradictory mess.
on the subject of the article, It would be interesting to see those sort of statistics by a regional and national breakdown. I am aware of some countries where inclination towards a scientific world view - and thus interest in the subject matter - is profoundly different to the US, where purposeful ignorance of proven fact simply because acceptance would require a change in lifestyle seems to be the norm.
(apologies for the train-of-thought format of my post)
You are right about the b52, but you forget that almost all b52s flying have been renovated so many times that little of the original aircraft other than some primary bodywork still makes up the plane. The Shuttle is nowhere near as stable a frame for that sort of thing.
and when it is smarter than us, it will see us as a collaborator, in the way that we see say, for example, a dog, or a tool as a collaborator. working alongside us doesnt necessarily mean we are the dominant part of the team.
in the vast majority of those examples - careful analysis of what the applications need to access can ensure security can be locked down. Security can be allowed to certain files/folders/registry keys, applications can be locked down using software restriction policies in group policy, and for the truly paranoid, logging can be enabled on areas at risk so that activity in the vulnerable areas is understood.
A sufficiently capable administrator will understand exactly what is allowed on the network and what isn't. Security can be locked down given that knowledge.
If you have administrators playing to the whims of department managers, it's their own bloody fault. A sufficiently good admin will have change management procedures in place so that any requirements are made clear well in advance and the consequences can be taken account of and included in the systems correct administration.
a good way to do this is to use EFS ( Encrypted File System ). Individuals can encrypt their files, but they are still accessible to the admin for backup purposes, just ot readable to them. keep the recovery key off the system, so the admin doesn't have access to it without the authority of multiple trusted individuals in the organisation. The files are secure enough to keep the legal, HR and Finance departments happy, and accessible enough by the admin for normal tasks.
Windows can be made secure, if you know what you are doing. problem is, windows is pretty intuitive on the surface and horribly twisted under the surface. The vast majority of windows admins are little more than poorly trained monkeys - they can make windows systems usable - just not efficiently or securely used. Linux systems are hard to understand throughout, so in order to make linux usable you need to ACTUALLY understand it. This means that the majority of WORKING linux systems will be well set up and more secure than a comparable windows system.
Don't rip in to windows admins, please - just teach them good procedure, how to think about security in a clear way, and don't immediately jump to the idea that windows is by definition insecure.
This is a hell of a thing if hey manage to find a way of making it stable at room teperature and pressure - a glass that has a similar strength to diamond made from a highly available source material? I can see a ridiculous number of uses for this!
European Computer Driving License. ECDL. I know quite a number of students at the 17-18 age group have gone for these in the UK, and a number of companies are supporting staff getting them - it at least signifies that someone has proved themselves capable of understanding the use of a computer to a basic extent.
if you think everything else is already done, you are much mistaken -
every generation gets to a point where they say 'this is as far as you can take things, and no further'. But then someone comes up with a whole new concept and the cycle of development begins again. If everyone decided that 'it's already done' then we would never develop, never evolve, never advance. There is ALWAYS more.
i can't make any sweeping statements about other schools, but the one i work for ( i am Network manager for a UK secondary school ) is as follows:
The capacity to learn programming is there - the development environments are available, the systems are locked down sufficiently that the students can do the work but not ruin the school systems in the process... The main issue is that the IT teaching staff arent actually that interested in the subject - the head of the IT teaching department freaked out to me recently because new rules mean he has to teach relationalal database strutures in a more intelligent way - and he doesn't have a clue - he has worked for the last few years on handouts written by his predecessor. I know there are a few of the kids who would probably make good coders, but the teaching capacity isn't there any more - anyone with a real interest in the subject doesn't work in schools any more or has moved to a non-teaching role because the vast majority of the kids are borderline attention-deficit - they tend to have the attention span of a confused flea. It has got to the point that i am actually teaching them more about coding than the teaching staff! ( kids coming round to my office and begging me to help them sort out an issue with MS Office VBA problems. I don't solve the problem for them, i just tell them how to think about the problem and how to find relevant technical references so they can work it out for themselves ). It appears that no-one is willing to work things out for themselves any more - they want to be spoonfed because that is the way it has always been for them - and the teaching staff dont want t get involved other that regurgitating lecture notes...
Surely, a smart government agency would want to work towards reducing the costs for the 'day-to-day' stuff. If private space access firms appear, the cost of transportation to and from orbit and the development of the technologies involved will drop over time, which is to NASAs advantage. They end up with a number of suppliers they can outsource to for basic transportation, and they can devote their resources to the exploration and scientific missions, rather than the basic 'getting in to orbit' stuff.
they don't FORCE you to. those i have seen tend to make the default download directory the same as the default upload directory. You can move files out of that sharing folder as soon as you recieve them if you want to, but i think most people dont think for long enough to do that..
a party in power does not want to become totalitarian ( unless of course they are totally insane ) because how can you demonstrate that your policies are better if you have no comparison to give the voter? Even a very strong government will want an opposition - if only to say 'yeah, but you dont want to let that lot of losers in to power do you?'
Or are you saying that a government in power will use these databases to track,manipulate and undermine the opposing party to ensure continued power?
I have never said that the party system of politics is a good one. But what are the alternatives? Show me an example of a stable and at least fairly representative government that isn't derived from a democratic party system.
We don't have a good system, but there isn't anything better.
political protest isn't necessarily what is most effective in opposing a party in power. Demonstrating that your system is better without disrupting social cohesion is. For example, those who have a philosophical opposition to the modern economic system have set up barter economies within existing societies. they do not disrupt the existing ecomomy or social cohesion but allow those with tradeable skills and goods to make effective use of them without actually paying any tax towards the government in power. A government is only as powerful as its support - if someone demonstrates a better way then they have no real control - other than direct action, which will turn the support away from them, and as long as there is a reasonably valid democratic voting system in place a party in power can be removed.
The only person who can solve your problems is you. Once you really believe that you can make the changes necessary. If you don't believe that you are conning yourself.
the electoral roll is not a free-for-all database for anyone to use. when you register as a voter, you specify whether you want your entry to be on the public roll ( the one that gets commercially used ). Most people dont bother to read that far and dont tick the box to say no.
I imagine the ID card database will have something much the same, given it is a standard under the data protection act that entry in to a database have an option to not allow distribution for purposes other than that the database is specified for.
I would HOPE that as this is such a large project, the UK Government might go with a developer who actually has a decent track history rather than the Bodgit crews that usually do civil service projects ( These are usually chosen because they put in the lowest bid, the minor civil servant who makes the decision has been hit around the head with a large wadge of cash and has no clue as to managing large projects...) I would hope they would go with an organisation that already knows how to set up large and complex identity databases ( say, one of the firms that run the international bank systems ).
Of course i could be hideously naive. But i would love to hear what alternatives there are? Most people are very eager to say 'I don't like that!' but are totally unwilling to come up with any workable alternative. If people want to be ignorant and not bother reading what is a fairly simple form, thats their problem.
1. Vaguely true in the UK. More accurately true in the US. 2. Definitely true in the US, the UK played along... 3. HAHAHAHA! 4. Yes, true for the UK. Since when has Bush needed a mandate from the people for anything? 5. At least the UK has some controls!! 6. and how many people are there in the US who DONT have a driving license?
Once an ID system is in place, you have a way to uniquely identify everyone in the country. Those from abroad would be given a temporary ID when they pass through Customs/Immigration. Basically, it makes it damn easy to identify those who have entered the country illegaly as they will have no ID and no biometric data held. You don't need to CARRY your ID card, because a check can be made against some aspect of your biometrics quickly and easily.
Terrorism
I agree. it will have little or no effect on this. But if may help forensics identify people from fingerprints ( current data is for criminals and those who have been added because they have authorised it - see the example of the murder in south croydon recently where the police are taking mouth swabs and fingerprints from all individuals that fit the profile of the attacker so they are not wasting their time investigating those who dont fit the evidence ). If everyones fingerprints and maybe DNA is held, you have a way of quickly identifying possible suspects from evidence and also for identifying unidentifiable bodies - dna is often recoverable after many many years of decay.
Benefit Fraud
Your example of benefit fraud is false - the vast majority of benefit fraud is from multiple identity claimants ( i got this from a friend who is fairly senior administrative staff in the Benefits Agency ). Currently the only way to individually identif a person to the benefits agency is by their National insurance number, which are currently handed out like free sweets by the various benefits / National insurace organisations - all you need to do is say you lost yours and they will assign a 'temporary' until they can properly identify you. IDs will enable a fixed identifier, checkable by a simple biometric test. So you cant 'lose' your number.
I am not going to go in to the structure of the house of lords / house of commons because that isn't what this thread is for.
What i would like to ask, is to show me any real evidence that the government has used information held on the population maliciously. I personally don't think the government has the wits for it, and given the way the civil service is structured and the sort of people who work in it, and real manipulation of this sort of data would very quickly become public knowledge. ( Most of the workshorses in the civil service are fairly ethical people. if they saw something going on that they thought was wrong, they would find a way to get that knowledge out. Those in power know this ( well, the more intelligent ones ) and know better than to try anything. If the british are good at anything, it is making people who are 'not playing the game' very uncomfortable.
I do feel sorry for the americans though - a government that is so wrapped up in patronage that they cant even see that its there!
Slashdot Mirror
and Elons plan is working perfectly. he cant build all the necessary tech and infrastructure himself. trigger a space race and the tech WILL get developed by a multitude of startups for those specific needs. It's a a sensible method!
Klik
What if they are interested at an early age? My son is 5, and after seeing me messing about with Logo, wanted to know how to play the 'turtle game'. Within a day he was creating repeated structures and can now draw better with logo than he can with pencil and paper ( not that he is bad at that ).
It helped him develop his maths, reading and rational thinking skills.
Offer them the opportunity at any age - if they show an interest, support it. if they don't, then show them something else new, and see if it interests them.
Klik
Quick, lets make sure everyone only has a basic understanding of the world around them! Let's not teach them critical and analytical methods! Lets make sure they only understand things well enough to be happy ignorant consumers!
Simple programming in childhood teaches some very useful general skills with regards to understanding how processes happen. You don't need teachers or parents to have more knowledge, you just need them to impart a way of thinking that doesn't resolve to :
1. I do something...
2. ???
3. Profit!
They need to understand that step 2 may be a lot more interesting than 'someone elses problem'.
You can teach that level of critical and analytical thought without going near a computer - but if the kid is interested, it puts them in a good position for when they do want to do something with computers, and if they aren't interested, it at least puts the concept of analytical thought, and working through a problem systematically as an option in their mind, rather than 'its too hard... why cant you spoon feed me?' .
If you teach that level of critical thought, the good habits online become easier to teach, because you can present a situation, and the kids can evaluate the consequences.
You don't need to teach kids how to build a house, or engineer a car, but if they can understand a little of the methods needed to work out what is needed to do so, the process of learning any skill in future becomes easier.
Klik
doesn't even need to be in this galaxy. a shot fired and missing will just keep travelling until it hits something.
yes, your sarcasm is right on the mark. There are religious people who are sensible and considered, and there are scientists with strong biases. But science as a system promotes the biases being noticed and removed from the understanding of a subject, whereas religions in general do not promote that kind of understanding - a few individual religious thinkers have shown good sense ( Thomas Aquinas and Augustine of Hippo come to mind - but their philosophies were derived from Platonic thought) but most end up integrating dumb ideas in to what usually starts as a decent religion and turn it in to a self-contradictory mess.
on the subject of the article, It would be interesting to see those sort of statistics by a regional and national breakdown. I am aware of some countries where inclination towards a scientific world view - and thus interest in the subject matter - is profoundly different to the US, where purposeful ignorance of proven fact simply because acceptance would require a change in lifestyle seems to be the norm.
(apologies for the train-of-thought format of my post)
is this it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galena_Nuclear_Power_Plant
You are right about the b52, but you forget that almost all b52s flying have been renovated so many times that little of the original aircraft other than some primary bodywork still makes up the plane. The Shuttle is nowhere near as stable a frame for that sort of thing.
and when it is smarter than us, it will see us as a collaborator, in the way that we see say, for example, a dog, or a tool as a collaborator. working alongside us doesnt necessarily mean we are the dominant part of the team.
thats what THEY tell you...
do you mean the Key Stage 3 ICT Test Software that is now being cancelled for being basically useless for the task?
( I am a Network Manager for a UK Secondary School )
in the vast majority of those examples - careful analysis of what the applications need to access can ensure security can be locked down. Security can be allowed to certain files/folders/registry keys, applications can be locked down using software restriction policies in group policy, and for the truly paranoid, logging can be enabled on areas at risk so that activity in the vulnerable areas is understood.
A sufficiently capable administrator will understand exactly what is allowed on the network and what isn't. Security can be locked down given that knowledge.
If you have administrators playing to the whims of department managers, it's their own bloody fault. A sufficiently good admin will have change management procedures in place so that any requirements are made clear well in advance and the consequences can be taken account of and included in the systems correct administration.
a good way to do this is to use EFS ( Encrypted File System ). Individuals can encrypt their files, but they are still accessible to the admin for backup purposes, just ot readable to them. keep the recovery key off the system, so the admin doesn't have access to it without the authority of multiple trusted individuals in the organisation. The files are secure enough to keep the legal, HR and Finance departments happy, and accessible enough by the admin for normal tasks.
Windows can be made secure, if you know what you are doing. problem is, windows is pretty intuitive on the surface and horribly twisted under the surface. The vast majority of windows admins are little more than poorly trained monkeys - they can make windows systems usable - just not efficiently or securely used. Linux systems are hard to understand throughout, so in order to make linux usable you need to ACTUALLY understand it. This means that the majority of WORKING linux systems will be well set up and more secure than a comparable windows system.
Don't rip in to windows admins, please - just teach them good procedure, how to think about security in a clear way, and don't immediately jump to the idea that windows is by definition insecure.
This is a hell of a thing if hey manage to find a way of making it stable at room teperature and pressure - a glass that has a similar strength to diamond made from a highly available source material? I can see a ridiculous number of uses for this!
http://www.bcs.org/server.php?show=nav.5829
European Computer Driving License. ECDL. I know quite a number of students at the 17-18 age group have gone for these in the UK, and a number of companies are supporting staff getting them - it at least signifies that someone has proved themselves capable of understanding the use of a computer to a basic extent.
if you think everything else is already done, you are much mistaken -
every generation gets to a point where they say 'this is as far as you can take things, and no further'. But then someone comes up with a whole new concept and the cycle of development begins again. If everyone decided that 'it's already done' then we would never develop, never evolve, never advance. There is ALWAYS more.
i can't make any sweeping statements about other schools, but the one i work for ( i am Network manager for a UK secondary school ) is as follows:
The capacity to learn programming is there - the development environments are available, the systems are locked down sufficiently that the students can do the work but not ruin the school systems in the process... The main issue is that the IT teaching staff arent actually that interested in the subject - the head of the IT teaching department freaked out to me recently because new rules mean he has to teach relationalal database strutures in a more intelligent way - and he doesn't have a clue - he has worked for the last few years on handouts written by his predecessor. I know there are a few of the kids who would probably make good coders, but the teaching capacity isn't there any more - anyone with a real interest in the subject doesn't work in schools any more or has moved to a non-teaching role because the vast majority of the kids are borderline attention-deficit - they tend to have the attention span of a confused flea.
It has got to the point that i am actually teaching them more about coding than the teaching staff! ( kids coming round to my office and begging me to help them sort out an issue with MS Office VBA problems. I don't solve the problem for them, i just tell them how to think about the problem and how to find relevant technical references so they can work it out for themselves ).
It appears that no-one is willing to work things out for themselves any more - they want to be spoonfed because that is the way it has always been for them - and the teaching staff dont want t get involved other that regurgitating lecture notes...
arghh....
Surely, a smart government agency would want to work towards reducing the costs for the 'day-to-day' stuff. If private space access firms appear, the cost of transportation to and from orbit and the development of the technologies involved will drop over time, which is to NASAs advantage. They end up with a number of suppliers they can outsource to for basic transportation, and they can devote their resources to the exploration and scientific missions, rather than the basic 'getting in to orbit' stuff.
they don't FORCE you to. those i have seen tend to make the default download directory the same as the default upload directory. You can move files out of that sharing folder as soon as you recieve them if you want to, but i think most people dont think for long enough to do that..
think about this.
a party in power does not want to become totalitarian ( unless of course they are totally insane ) because how can you demonstrate that your policies are better if you have no comparison to give the voter? Even a very strong government will want an opposition - if only to say 'yeah, but you dont want to let that lot of losers in to power do you?'
Or are you saying that a government in power will use these databases to track,manipulate and undermine the opposing party to ensure continued power?
I have never said that the party system of politics is a good one. But what are the alternatives? Show me an example of a stable and at least fairly representative government that isn't derived from a democratic party system.
We don't have a good system, but there isn't anything better.
political protest isn't necessarily what is most effective in opposing a party in power. Demonstrating that your system is better without disrupting social cohesion is. For example, those who have a philosophical opposition to the modern economic system have set up barter economies within existing societies. they do not disrupt the existing ecomomy or social cohesion but allow those with tradeable skills and goods to make effective use of them without actually paying any tax towards the government in power. A government is only as powerful as its support - if someone demonstrates a better way then they have no real control - other than direct action, which will turn the support away from them, and as long as there is a reasonably valid democratic voting system in place a party in power can be removed.
Hear Hear!!
The only person who can solve your problems is you. Once you really believe that you can make the changes necessary. If you don't believe that you are conning yourself.
the electoral roll is not a free-for-all database for anyone to use. when you register as a voter, you specify whether you want your entry to be on the public roll ( the one that gets commercially used ). Most people dont bother to read that far and dont tick the box to say no.
I imagine the ID card database will have something much the same, given it is a standard under the data protection act that entry in to a database have an option to not allow distribution for purposes other than that the database is specified for.
I would HOPE that as this is such a large project, the UK Government might go with a developer who actually has a decent track history rather than the Bodgit crews that usually do civil service projects ( These are usually chosen because they put in the lowest bid, the minor civil servant who makes the decision has been hit around the head with a large wadge of cash and has no clue as to managing large projects...) I would hope they would go with an organisation that already knows how to set up large and complex identity databases ( say, one of the firms that run the international bank systems ).
Of course i could be hideously naive. But i would love to hear what alternatives there are? Most people are very eager to say 'I don't like that!' but are totally unwilling to come up with any workable alternative.
If people want to be ignorant and not bother reading what is a fairly simple form, thats their problem.
glad to know paranoia is alive and well...
1. Vaguely true in the UK. More accurately true in the US.
2. Definitely true in the US, the UK played along...
3. HAHAHAHA!
4. Yes, true for the UK. Since when has Bush needed a mandate from the people for anything?
5. At least the UK has some controls!!
6. and how many people are there in the US who DONT have a driving license?
I am a British Citizen.
I am not a troll.
in counter to your arguments:
Immigration.
Once an ID system is in place, you have a way to uniquely identify everyone in the country. Those from abroad would be given a temporary ID when they pass through Customs/Immigration. Basically, it makes it damn easy to identify those who have entered the country illegaly as they will have no ID and no biometric data held.
You don't need to CARRY your ID card, because a check can be made against some aspect of your biometrics quickly and easily.
Terrorism
I agree. it will have little or no effect on this. But if may help forensics identify people from fingerprints ( current data is for criminals and those who have been added because they have authorised it - see the example of the murder in south croydon recently where the police are taking mouth swabs and fingerprints from all individuals that fit the profile of the attacker so they are not wasting their time investigating those who dont fit the evidence ). If everyones fingerprints and maybe DNA is held, you have a way of quickly identifying possible suspects from evidence and also for identifying unidentifiable bodies - dna is often recoverable after many many years of decay.
Benefit Fraud
Your example of benefit fraud is false - the vast majority of benefit fraud is from multiple identity claimants ( i got this from a friend who is fairly senior administrative staff in the Benefits Agency ). Currently the only way to individually identif a person to the benefits agency is by their National insurance number, which are currently handed out like free sweets by the various benefits / National insurace organisations - all you need to do is say you lost yours and they will assign a 'temporary' until they can properly identify you. IDs will enable a fixed identifier, checkable by a simple biometric test. So you cant 'lose' your number.
I am not going to go in to the structure of the house of lords / house of commons because that isn't what this thread is for.
What i would like to ask, is to show me any real evidence that the government has used information held on the population maliciously. I personally don't think the government has the wits for it, and given the way the civil service is structured and the sort of people who work in it, and real manipulation of this sort of data would very quickly become public knowledge. ( Most of the workshorses in the civil service are fairly ethical people. if they saw something going on that they thought was wrong, they would find a way to get that knowledge out. Those in power know this ( well, the more intelligent ones ) and know better than to try anything. If the british are good at anything, it is making people who are 'not playing the game' very uncomfortable.
I do feel sorry for the americans though - a government that is so wrapped up in patronage that they cant even see that its there!
maybe he should change his name to Reid Malenfant? ...look out for blue rings...