The more I think about this, the more I think the WTC/Pentagon disaster is an early warning just like Pearl Harbor. Americans in both the 1930s and the 1990s were effectively isolationist. Last night I saw a survivor interview that the guy ended with the statement, almost in tears, "Why can't you keep your stupid wars over there?" These events show that the war was NEVER just "over there". But if it's going to be fought with American casualties, then by God I want it fought in some desert in the middle of nowhere instead of downtown Manhattan. We have conquered dozens of nations, installed rational govenments and come home against far more organized opponents than this. We can do it again, and should. Islamic fundamentalism is just as dangerous to the world as National Socialism (Nazi) ever was. FORGET THE MISSILE DEFENSE SHIELD - WE HAVE GOT TO STOP THESE GUYS COLD ***NOW*** BEFORE THEY GET NUKES. If we don't, then in ten or twenty years instaed of four jetliners it's going to be FOUR CRATERS where San Francisco, Boston, Miami and Chicago used to be, delivered by boats smuggling plutonium instead of cocaine. Yes, I know we don't have a target today and we must not go off half cocked. But when we get a target, a plan and resources ready, we must GO!
That's why IDENTIFY THE ENEMY was included in my post. You think we are going to remain eternally ignorant on who four suicidal pilots able to get Boeing 767 simulator time were, and who they worked for?
There were 50,000 people in those buildings. Nobody at the blast floors or above got out alive. The ones ON the blast floor were the lucky ones - they never knew what hit them. The ones ABOVE the blast floor had to wait an hour for the collapse before they died - they couldn't get THRU the blast floors to get to the street. The casualties encompassed half of one tower and a quarter of another - that's (0.5+0.25)*50,000 / 2 = 20,000 dead. Folks, this is going to be the biggest attack in US history, even bigger than any of the Civil War bloodbaths. WHEN TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YOUR CITIZENS DIE IN AN HOUR, IT'S NOT A CRIME SCENE - IT'S A BATTLE ZONE. THE CORRECT RESPONSE IS TO IDENTIFY THE ENEMY, TAKE THE WAR TO THEM, AND KILL THEM. THAT'S HOW WAR WORKS. THIS IS WAR.
There were 50,000 people in those buildings. Nobody at the blast floors or above got out alive. The ones ON the blast floor were the lucky ones - they never knew what hit them. The ones ABOVE the blast floor had to wait an hour for the collapse before they died - they couldn't get THRU the blast floors to get to the street. The casualties encompassed half of one tower and a quarter of another - that's (0.5+0.25)*50,000 / 2 = 20,000 dead. Folks, this is going to be the biggest attack in US history, even bigger than any of the Civil War bloodbaths. WHEN TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YOUR CITIZENS DIE IN AN HOUR, IT'S NOT A CRIME SCENE - IT'S A BATTLE ZONE. THE CORRECT RESPONSE IS TO IDENTIFY THE ENEMY, TAKE THE WAR TO THEM, AND KILL THEM. THAT'S HOW WAR WORKS. THIS IS WAR.
Thanks for agreeing with my original post! I was starting to wonder if anybody sees it this way. Folks, this is going to be the biggest attack in US history, even bigger than any of the Civil War bloodbaths. There were 50,000 people in those buildings. Nobody at the blast floors or above got out alive. The ones ON the blast floor were the lucky ones - they never knew what hit them. The ones ABOVE the blast floor had to wait an hour for the collapse before they died - they couldn't get THRU the blast floors to get to the street. The casualties encompassed half of one tower and a quarter of another - that's (0.5+0.25)*50,000 / 2 = 20,000 dead. WHEN TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YOUR CITIZENS DIE IN AN HOUR, IT'S NOT A CRIME SCENE - IT'S A BATTLE ZONE. THE CORRECT RESPONSE IS TO IDENTIFY THE ENEMY, TAKE THE WAR TO THEM, AND KILL THEM. THAT'S HOW WAR WORKS. THIS IS WAR.
Yes, And The New Spire Should Be From The Old
on
Our New Pearl Harbor
·
· Score: 2
Not only should we rebuild the towers immediately but the new spires on the top should be cast from metal melted down from the two that are down now. What terrorists may knock down we will hold higher than ever.
I agree that even a tactical nuke would cause more PHYSICAL DAMAGE than a couple of jetliners and collapse of a couple of huge 110 story skyscrapers. However, the DEATH TOLL is going to be in the high thousands if not tens of thousands. That is a death toll associated with nukes, not conventional explosives. There are very few scenarios where you can kill tens of thousands of people with conventional weapons inside of an hour. This was one of them. This level of deaths is definitely in the "weapons of mass destruction" range and US policy has been that use of a weapon of mass destruction will be retaliated in kind. During the Gulf War (Dubya's dad), that was a veiled threat of going nuclear if Sadddam used nerve gas or anthrax. I believe we may very well (fifty-fifty odds with better than 90% public suppport this time next week) use a single tactical nuke this time around just to show everybody that when this level of violence happens, the US will pull out ALL the stops. And that tactical nuke, if used, isn't going to be a B-61 which is a HELL of a lot bigger than 1 kiloton. A tactical nuke is more like a W-79 nuclear artillery shell... For info on the US nuclear arsenal, check here).
The time for peace is over. We must identify who did this, find out where they are, go in after them, and wipe them off the face of the Earth. We will suffer more casualties doing it this way. Too bad. The death toll is going to exceed Pearl Harbor and approach if not exceed use of a tactical nuke. We are at war.
You are absolutely right and it is very scary. I personally think there are better than even odds at this point about at least one nuke getting used just to emphasize the point that if America gets hit like this, we are going to pull out ALL the stops.
How in the HELL do you get FOUR hijackings with SUICIDAL leaders COORDINATED without ANY hint this was going down from the NSA or CIA??? Boy, those guys are going to get clobbered but good...
The time for peace is over. We must identify who did this, find out where they are, go in after them, and wipe them off the face of the Earth. We will suffer more casualties doing it this way. Too bad. The death toll is going to exceed Pearl Harbor and approach if not exceed use of a tactical nuke. We are at war.
The time for peace is over. We must identify who did this, find out where they are, go in after them, and wipe them off the face of the Earth. We will suffer more casualties doing it this way. Too bad. The death toll is going to exceed Pearl Harbor and approach if not exceed use of a tactical nuke. We are at war.
I agree. It is plain old hypocritical to ding the Iraqis and ignore the Turks. The list of bullies and thugs the US has supported and continues to support because they are on "our side" is disgusting. I am at a loss over how to stop this as just one guy at a keyboard with a thousand other things on my mind. All I know is that as a first step, it has to be brought out into the open for all to see. That's what you've done. Bravo.
Pal, you need to do some reading. The Chinese military took over Tibet, pretty routinely has attacked India and North Vietnam every few years over border disputes, and last but not least killed thousands of Americans in the Korean War. All of this is nothing compared to what the Chinese military did to its own people during the Cultural Revolution in the 1960s - literally millions died in what was effectively a civil war where the Maoists consolidated their power. And remember who drove the tanks over the students in Tienneman Square?
As for the US, we do not specifically target civilians in any of the countries you mentioned although I agree civilians do unfortunately die in American attacks. Nevertheless, the US attacks have stopped the governments of those countries from wholescale slaughter of Kurds and Muslims. I am sorry that scattered civilians are killed by US bombs but that is peanuts compared to the mass graves of hundreds of minority civilians killed by the armies of those countries.
Yes, I do believe the US are the Good Guys. We conquered Japan and Germany and gave it back. We conquered a dozen little countries over the past fifty years - Honduras, Congo, Lebanon, Grenada -others - and gave them all back. We kept a Cold War from going hot and gave our beated opponents tens of billions in IMF aid that was squandered by corruption. We conquered a trillion dollar reservoir of oil and had a half million troops in a land totally unable to resist militarily, and we gave it all back. No other country in the world or all of history has conquered so much and walked away from the spoils the way America did in the 20th century. Only the Good Guys do that.
Now, is the US perfect? Worthy of unquestioned loyalty? Guarenteed to always be the Good Guys in the future just because they have been in the past? Hell, no. We have bad people that can make bad decisions at the drop of a hat. The citizens of the US must ALWAYS stay on their toes and strive to act responsibly. We will often fail. Nevertheless, if we become so cynical that we no longer recognize or acknowledge just how amazing America has been on the world stage, we do something worse than making mistakes of judgement - we will kill hope that ANYBODY is going to try to make the world better from the madness raging in the Congo and Zaire and Cambodia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Iraq and a dozen other flashpoints. That would be a tragedy of epic proportions. Resist it.
There is NOTHING honorable or glorious about war. Period. If you find yourself in one, there are two priorities: survive and win. Period. If you get distracted by ANY other goals you are going to suffer needless losses at best and lose at worst. There is no limit to how evil humans can act in times of war. Concepts of honor and glory only delay your descent into these dark levels and let your opponent get there before you do - a tactical advantage that may enable his victory. Be as violent as possible and get it over with as quickly as possible so everybody can get back to peacetime. Cold, hard realities.
Well, to be honest, Patton was a brilliant general who never had a chance to cope with life in peacetime - he died in a Jeep accident shortly after the end of the war he helped to win. The great thing about America is that we had generals who shone in peacetime, too - noteably George Marshall with the Marshall plan that rebuilt Europe...
If the Americans hadn't broken the Japanese
"Purple" code in the 1930s, we in all probability would have lost the Battle of Midway in the 1940s and now in the 21st Century it would have been entirely possible that China would be a Japanese puppet. Likewise, if the Poles (and later the British) hadn't started breaking German Enigma code starting in the 1930s, we would probably lost the Battle of the Atlantic in the 1940s and there might still be a Nazi presence in Europe in the 21st Century. A little intellectual homework now can alter the course of millions of lives a decade or two down the road. America has flaws and is far from perfect, but We Are The Good Guys and hell no, we should NEVER settle for a level playing field in matters of national security. War is NEVER about honor - it is about WINNING. Preferably fast and with minimum loss of life if possible...
....I've got Comcast@Home! They wouldn't dare cut off my elite broadband service and relegate me back to the dark hole of 56KBaud modem service, would th
Re:Is Intelink More Secure Than Enigma?
on
Real Cyber-Spying
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· Score: 2
Asking a lot? Hey, I'm a taxpayer, I PAID for this thing. Besides, the National Security Agency (NSA) offers a course to anybody on just this subject here....
Is Intelink More Secure Than Enigma?
on
Real Cyber-Spying
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
The referenced article had a link to the best demo I've seen so far about the US Government's "separate" internet called Intelink that links intellegence agencies. This is where our spy got his material he tried to sell - online, not from an old-style combination safe. Intelnet is supposed to be totally isolated from the "regular" internet (yeah, right, anybody got a connecting URL?) but it's got 250,000+ users. How can the security on this thing be airtight enough to entrust US secrets to it? A few nights ago I watched the Nova rerun about Bletchley Park breaking the Nazi Enigma code and the point was made over and over that the Brits got toeholds into breaking the code by flaws in the way the Germans in the field actually used the Enigma on a day-to-day basis. Aren't we setting ourselves up for exactly the same thing with a quarter-million users out there? Yo, some Slashdot user who has access to this thing - tell us what administrative security is in force! Also, this guy went to his public library and logged onto free email accounts to transfer his information - what should he have done? What is the next way a spy will use the regular internet as an anonymous deaddrop more successfully than Sgt Regan?
An Apache module that automatically inserts noise in a jpeg is a BAD idea. As soon as it exists, the feds will pass a law stating that ALL jpgs being transmitted on the internet have to go thru such a filter...
Umm - can anybody name ANY 19th-20th Century Italian colonization effort that succeeded? I can't. Can anybody name a German or British one that failed?
Actually, it was an anthill. And you know, what you've said is funny and absolutely mindnumbingly frightening at the same time. Science - and "life experience" - isn't about coming up with better ways of experiencing what we ***think*** is out there - that's the definition of entertainment. Science and "life experience" is doing our best to observe what ***really is*** out there. And as science becomes more and more depenent on machines to aid our powers of observation we must work harder to consciously be aware of this separation between science and entertainment. Hey, when they get those laser retinal displays perfected I'm gonna try em out, too. Should be amazing. The video games will be VERY entertaining and that's a good thing. But if it's showing me a picture of the Milky Way that came off a hard drive somewhere as a tiff or jpg file, that's going to be a lot closer to entertainment than a life changing experience flat on your back in the New Mexico desert. We need both to be all we can be.
Slashdot Mirror
The more I think about this, the more I think the WTC/Pentagon disaster is an early warning just like Pearl Harbor. Americans in both the 1930s and the 1990s were effectively isolationist. Last night I saw a survivor interview that the guy ended with the statement, almost in tears, "Why can't you keep your stupid wars over there?" These events show that the war was NEVER just "over there". But if it's going to be fought with American casualties, then by God I want it fought in some desert in the middle of nowhere instead of downtown Manhattan. We have conquered dozens of nations, installed rational govenments and come home against far more organized opponents than this. We can do it again, and should. Islamic fundamentalism is just as dangerous to the world as National Socialism (Nazi) ever was. FORGET THE MISSILE DEFENSE SHIELD - WE HAVE GOT TO STOP THESE GUYS COLD ***NOW*** BEFORE THEY GET NUKES. If we don't, then in ten or twenty years instaed of four jetliners it's going to be FOUR CRATERS where San Francisco, Boston, Miami and Chicago used to be, delivered by boats smuggling plutonium instead of cocaine. Yes, I know we don't have a target today and we must not go off half cocked. But when we get a target, a plan and resources ready, we must GO!
That's why IDENTIFY THE ENEMY was included in my post. You think we are going to remain eternally ignorant on who four suicidal pilots able to get Boeing 767 simulator time were, and who they worked for?
There were 50,000 people in those buildings. Nobody at the blast floors or above got out alive. The ones ON the blast floor were the lucky ones - they never knew what hit them. The ones ABOVE the blast floor had to wait an hour for the collapse before they died - they couldn't get THRU the blast floors to get to the street. The casualties encompassed half of one tower and a quarter of another - that's (0.5+0.25)*50,000 / 2 = 20,000 dead. Folks, this is going to be the biggest attack in US history, even bigger than any of the Civil War bloodbaths. WHEN TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YOUR CITIZENS DIE IN AN HOUR, IT'S NOT A CRIME SCENE - IT'S A BATTLE ZONE. THE CORRECT RESPONSE IS TO IDENTIFY THE ENEMY, TAKE THE WAR TO THEM, AND KILL THEM. THAT'S HOW WAR WORKS. THIS IS WAR.
There were 50,000 people in those buildings. Nobody at the blast floors or above got out alive. The ones ON the blast floor were the lucky ones - they never knew what hit them. The ones ABOVE the blast floor had to wait an hour for the collapse before they died - they couldn't get THRU the blast floors to get to the street. The casualties encompassed half of one tower and a quarter of another - that's (0.5+0.25)*50,000 / 2 = 20,000 dead. Folks, this is going to be the biggest attack in US history, even bigger than any of the Civil War bloodbaths. WHEN TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YOUR CITIZENS DIE IN AN HOUR, IT'S NOT A CRIME SCENE - IT'S A BATTLE ZONE. THE CORRECT RESPONSE IS TO IDENTIFY THE ENEMY, TAKE THE WAR TO THEM, AND KILL THEM. THAT'S HOW WAR WORKS. THIS IS WAR.
Thanks for agreeing with my original post! I was starting to wonder if anybody sees it this way. Folks, this is going to be the biggest attack in US history, even bigger than any of the Civil War bloodbaths. There were 50,000 people in those buildings. Nobody at the blast floors or above got out alive. The ones ON the blast floor were the lucky ones - they never knew what hit them. The ones ABOVE the blast floor had to wait an hour for the collapse before they died - they couldn't get THRU the blast floors to get to the street. The casualties encompassed half of one tower and a quarter of another - that's (0.5+0.25)*50,000 / 2 = 20,000 dead. WHEN TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YOUR CITIZENS DIE IN AN HOUR, IT'S NOT A CRIME SCENE - IT'S A BATTLE ZONE. THE CORRECT RESPONSE IS TO IDENTIFY THE ENEMY, TAKE THE WAR TO THEM, AND KILL THEM. THAT'S HOW WAR WORKS. THIS IS WAR.
Not only should we rebuild the towers immediately but the new spires on the top should be cast from metal melted down from the two that are down now. What terrorists may knock down we will hold higher than ever.
I agree that even a tactical nuke would cause more PHYSICAL DAMAGE than a couple of jetliners and collapse of a couple of huge 110 story skyscrapers. However, the DEATH TOLL is going to be in the high thousands if not tens of thousands. That is a death toll associated with nukes, not conventional explosives. There are very few scenarios where you can kill tens of thousands of people with conventional weapons inside of an hour. This was one of them. This level of deaths is definitely in the "weapons of mass destruction" range and US policy has been that use of a weapon of mass destruction will be retaliated in kind. During the Gulf War (Dubya's dad), that was a veiled threat of going nuclear if Sadddam used nerve gas or anthrax. I believe we may very well (fifty-fifty odds with better than 90% public suppport this time next week) use a single tactical nuke this time around just to show everybody that when this level of violence happens, the US will pull out ALL the stops. And that tactical nuke, if used, isn't going to be a B-61 which is a HELL of a lot bigger than 1 kiloton. A tactical nuke is more like a W-79 nuclear artillery shell... For info on the US nuclear arsenal, check here).
The time for peace is over. We must identify who did this, find out where they are, go in after them, and wipe them off the face of the Earth. We will suffer more casualties doing it this way. Too bad. The death toll is going to exceed Pearl Harbor and approach if not exceed use of a tactical nuke. We are at war.
Hooboy - I'll bet you're right....
You are absolutely right and it is very scary. I personally think there are better than even odds at this point about at least one nuke getting used just to emphasize the point that if America gets hit like this, we are going to pull out ALL the stops.
How in the HELL do you get FOUR hijackings with SUICIDAL leaders COORDINATED without ANY hint this was going down from the NSA or CIA??? Boy, those guys are going to get clobbered but good...
The time for peace is over. We must identify who did this, find out where they are, go in after them, and wipe them off the face of the Earth. We will suffer more casualties doing it this way. Too bad. The death toll is going to exceed Pearl Harbor and approach if not exceed use of a tactical nuke. We are at war.
The time for peace is over. We must identify who did this, find out where they are, go in after them, and wipe them off the face of the Earth. We will suffer more casualties doing it this way. Too bad. The death toll is going to exceed Pearl Harbor and approach if not exceed use of a tactical nuke. We are at war.
Good point - mod this up!
I agree. It is plain old hypocritical to ding the Iraqis and ignore the Turks. The list of bullies and thugs the US has supported and continues to support because they are on "our side" is disgusting. I am at a loss over how to stop this as just one guy at a keyboard with a thousand other things on my mind. All I know is that as a first step, it has to be brought out into the open for all to see. That's what you've done. Bravo.
Pal, you need to do some reading. The Chinese military took over Tibet, pretty routinely has attacked India and North Vietnam every few years over border disputes, and last but not least killed thousands of Americans in the Korean War. All of this is nothing compared to what the Chinese military did to its own people during the Cultural Revolution in the 1960s - literally millions died in what was effectively a civil war where the Maoists consolidated their power. And remember who drove the tanks over the students in Tienneman Square?
As for the US, we do not specifically target civilians in any of the countries you mentioned although I agree civilians do unfortunately die in American attacks. Nevertheless, the US attacks have stopped the governments of those countries from wholescale slaughter of Kurds and Muslims. I am sorry that scattered civilians are killed by US bombs but that is peanuts compared to the mass graves of hundreds of minority civilians killed by the armies of those countries.
Yes, I do believe the US are the Good Guys. We conquered Japan and Germany and gave it back. We conquered a dozen little countries over the past fifty years - Honduras, Congo, Lebanon, Grenada -others - and gave them all back. We kept a Cold War from going hot and gave our beated opponents tens of billions in IMF aid that was squandered by corruption. We conquered a trillion dollar reservoir of oil and had a half million troops in a land totally unable to resist militarily, and we gave it all back. No other country in the world or all of history has conquered so much and walked away from the spoils the way America did in the 20th century. Only the Good Guys do that.
Now, is the US perfect? Worthy of unquestioned loyalty? Guarenteed to always be the Good Guys in the future just because they have been in the past? Hell, no. We have bad people that can make bad decisions at the drop of a hat. The citizens of the US must ALWAYS stay on their toes and strive to act responsibly. We will often fail. Nevertheless, if we become so cynical that we no longer recognize or acknowledge just how amazing America has been on the world stage, we do something worse than making mistakes of judgement - we will kill hope that ANYBODY is going to try to make the world better from the madness raging in the Congo and Zaire and Cambodia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Iraq and a dozen other flashpoints. That would be a tragedy of epic proportions. Resist it.
There is NOTHING honorable or glorious about war. Period. If you find yourself in one, there are two priorities: survive and win. Period. If you get distracted by ANY other goals you are going to suffer needless losses at best and lose at worst. There is no limit to how evil humans can act in times of war. Concepts of honor and glory only delay your descent into these dark levels and let your opponent get there before you do - a tactical advantage that may enable his victory. Be as violent as possible and get it over with as quickly as possible so everybody can get back to peacetime. Cold, hard realities.
Well, to be honest, Patton was a brilliant general who never had a chance to cope with life in peacetime - he died in a Jeep accident shortly after the end of the war he helped to win. The great thing about America is that we had generals who shone in peacetime, too - noteably George Marshall with the Marshall plan that rebuilt Europe...
If the Americans hadn't broken the Japanese
"Purple" code in the 1930s, we in all probability would have lost the Battle of Midway in the 1940s and now in the 21st Century it would have been entirely possible that China would be a Japanese puppet. Likewise, if the Poles (and later the British) hadn't started breaking German Enigma code starting in the 1930s, we would probably lost the Battle of the Atlantic in the 1940s and there might still be a Nazi presence in Europe in the 21st Century. A little intellectual homework now can alter the course of millions of lives a decade or two down the road. America has flaws and is far from perfect, but We Are The Good Guys and hell no, we should NEVER settle for a level playing field in matters of national security. War is NEVER about honor - it is about WINNING. Preferably fast and with minimum loss of life if possible...
....I've got Comcast@Home! They wouldn't dare cut off my elite broadband service and relegate me back to the dark hole of 56KBaud modem service, would th
Asking a lot? Hey, I'm a taxpayer, I PAID for this thing. Besides, the National Security Agency (NSA) offers a course to anybody on just this subject here....
The referenced article had a link to the best demo I've seen so far about the US Government's "separate" internet called Intelink that links intellegence agencies. This is where our spy got his material he tried to sell - online, not from an old-style combination safe. Intelnet is supposed to be totally isolated from the "regular" internet (yeah, right, anybody got a connecting URL?) but it's got 250,000+ users. How can the security on this thing be airtight enough to entrust US secrets to it? A few nights ago I watched the Nova rerun about Bletchley Park breaking the Nazi Enigma code and the point was made over and over that the Brits got toeholds into breaking the code by flaws in the way the Germans in the field actually used the Enigma on a day-to-day basis. Aren't we setting ourselves up for exactly the same thing with a quarter-million users out there? Yo, some Slashdot user who has access to this thing - tell us what administrative security is in force! Also, this guy went to his public library and logged onto free email accounts to transfer his information - what should he have done? What is the next way a spy will use the regular internet as an anonymous deaddrop more successfully than Sgt Regan?
An Apache module that automatically inserts noise in a jpeg is a BAD idea. As soon as it exists, the feds will pass a law stating that ALL jpgs being transmitted on the internet have to go thru such a filter...
Umm - can anybody name ANY 19th-20th Century Italian colonization effort that succeeded? I can't. Can anybody name a German or British one that failed?
Actually, it was an anthill. And you know, what you've said is funny and absolutely mindnumbingly frightening at the same time. Science - and "life experience" - isn't about coming up with better ways of experiencing what we ***think*** is out there - that's the definition of entertainment. Science and "life experience" is doing our best to observe what ***really is*** out there. And as science becomes more and more depenent on machines to aid our powers of observation we must work harder to consciously be aware of this separation between science and entertainment. Hey, when they get those laser retinal displays perfected I'm gonna try em out, too. Should be amazing. The video games will be VERY entertaining and that's a good thing. But if it's showing me a picture of the Milky Way that came off a hard drive somewhere as a tiff or jpg file, that's going to be a lot closer to entertainment than a life changing experience flat on your back in the New Mexico desert. We need both to be all we can be.