This is very true. It seems to go kinda like this: Republican: National security is at risk, we must curtail civil rights! Democrat: Hey you can't take people's rights away like that....you have to do it like this...then you can get everything you want AND prosecute anyone who leaks on it Republican: Ok Deal. Democrat: Now lets raise taxes to pay for it Republican: Not so fast, how about we backdoor a tax hike to make it look like something else, and make sure we can shield ourselves and our friends Democrat: Ok deal.....oh and we can fight about it and suck up all the air time so nobody talks about civil liberties Republican: Now you are getting it.
obviously the hormonal impact of having children has clouded your ability to understand what child labor actually means and why it is generally banned. If you ever do get beyond that you will see what I mean, trust me.
Well I just had surgery, and let me tell you, serious institutions have taken steps to prevent some of those problems, even to the point of occasional absurdity. I was going in to have an incision reopened to remove more of a mass that had grown but the first surgery didn't completely remove.
You can't get much easier than a recent, visible, incision to tell you where to go. Still, I was asked by multiple people what the procedure I believed I was in for was, where it was, and why we were doing it, including the surgeon himself, who then took a marker and marked the area, and writing "yes" above it to signal that is the spot.
Common sense? You mean the body of ideas that tells you such gems as to swim against a riptide, pour water on a grease fire, and that this time its going to work and he can change?
No, Common sense is really the problem here. The problem is that people are not machines. Machines can be relied on to do something, do it every time, and do it even when there is no feedback mechanism. People cannot, they are not neat simple machines. They are dirty bags of mostly water.
Hand washing is one of those things that's so easy to forget when you are in a rush and when you do it right, it goes unnoticed. There is no feedback mechanism to say "you are starting to forget to do this", you just forget and nothing happens...and nothing happens....and nothing happens....until it does. People need feedback.
"Common sense" is nothing more than an excuse to do nothing of consequence and fix the blame for having done nothing on the people involved.
This is one of the things that worries me occasionally. Not as someone who does anything particularly illegal, but as someone who, every few years, gets interested in some new (or old) encryption tool and plays with it. I actually have a number of encrypted files, filesystems, keyrings, and Certificate authorities, which I have long since forgotten the passwords to.
Some of these would even be quite hard to deny linking to myself, but, I am no more able to access any of them than you are. Though one of the pgp keys I did recently find the disk containing its pregenerated revocation certificates.... if I only had a 3.5" floppy drive....
> what is happening is that they have evidence to move forward > with an indictment, but they're trying to set a legal precedented to > override the 5th for future cases, IMHO.
That is a possibility, but also, this evidence gives them another bite at the apple. The judge said no before because they couldn't link drives to him... now one drive can be linked to him.... so now they get to make their case again and say "Is this good enough?"
In the end its really about sticking him badly enough into a corner that he pleads guilty and saves them a trial. If he is still not decrypting drives, then he is still not really making the deal they want.
> This is basically the same tactic used in U.S. schools on the children > now a days. You know, Billy said you did it, so why don't you tell > us what you did...
That was my experience, I remember getting called down to the office because one of my teammates and I were horsing around after school one day around the locker room and someone reported some things stolen from a locker that night.
The guy they had in charge of discipline was pretty good, but, I bet he has done as many interrogations as a police detective. It was the same sort of deal, tell me what you saw, we know you were in the area, and I am going to bring him in here later so your stories better match up.
Though at the local resteraunt, they will ask you how you want the kitfo cooked:) I have never ordered it cooked but, they do offer.
I find it interesting that dishes with actual raw beef taste a bit different than rare meat, I have eaten some pretty thick steaks that were undercooked for medium rare, more towards rare, and they still don't quite have the same flavor as dishes with raw meat.
Raw is not my favorite way to have beef (it is my favorite for salmon and some other fish) but, its a nice for a change, once in a while.
That is kind of tangential to the point though. Yes, those are the terms, but, what the terms are doesn't address what they can be or why they are the way they are. I meant in more general terms, can you legally pay a minor without permission from their parent? Certainly, I imagine there are places and situations where you can, unambiguously and legally do so, but its not hard at all to imagine places and situations where you cannot or where whether you can is ambiguous.
I think this really boils down to a bunch of CYA, easiest thing to do with "minors" is set the cutoff age around where most countries make the distinction and sidestep the whole issue by not allowing minors, which, appears to be exactly what paypal decided to do.
Not that I blame them for wanting some CYA or wanting to punt on the whole issue, I wouldn't be shocked at all if the age limit came about as a response from the lawyers about how much research it would require.....or.... to simply the scenario even more, its not even a given that they ever considered the age issue. Its entirely likely it went like this:
"Legal said we are good on the bug bounty program, but this is the language they want added to the rules." "Looks good, post it."
> on the other hand, the plaintiff plays the same probability game, and will only sue if there's a good > chance of seeing some $$
Well no, its if they believe there is a good chance, which is different from whether there is, but also, whether there is depends on what court in what country. My point is, this looks pretty clearly like it was CYA from the begining and likely something they didn't think through since it was likely viewed as more trouble than its worth.
There is only one reason to restrict it...legal CYA. Remember everywhere in the world makes their own laws and many of them have restrictions on what one can do with young people, which includes paying them.
Does paying a minor, even for such a voluntary action, require parental approval? If a 15 year old submits a bug, gets paid, and uses the money to buy drugs, could the parent sue, claiming they were irresponsible to give so much money to a teenager directly?
Remember, lawmakers are lazy, they like to be overly broad or not think things through, I could totally see legislative attempts at curbing anything from drug use to underage prostitution hamfistedly creating problems here. Law is often not limited by its own intentions.
In the end, I bet the answer has three letters: CYA:
"What are the implications of allowing people under 18 to submit bugs?" "It depends on......." "Ok sorry I asked; no submissions from people under 18."
For me it was just an administration and programing course, and we didn't actually have VMs, each team had a physical box. Still we had some fun. When setting up the guest account one of the other teams made/home world writeable...ooops... I had fun with that.... took me a few minutes to move everyone's home dirs aside and replace them with new ones with a new.profile which would copy/bin/sh to a new dir and make it setuid to their own user...then fix their home dir and exec the shell again:)
Joke was on me, of course, as they ignored the advice that they should use their own named user accounts and not just log on as root all the time, none of the users ever logged in. However, the instructor saw what I had done and thought that team was messing with him, so he gave them an extra hard test at the end... accidentally giving them a problem that they couldn't solve. Oops:)
He was white, as am I. Actually, we were in a mostly English speaking bar near the local train station. "Rednecks" if you are ever in Nice. The guy was sitting by the bar and we began speaking in French, until he switched to English and threw me for a loop, since I my French isn't good enough to discern an English accent.
If I remember right it started with him telling me how he just gave some people directions to this other bar but, that they were going to hate the place when they get there because its in an Arab neighbourhood and the white French are some of the most racist people you will ever meet.
Completely aside, I was there during a train strike, and had no way back to my hotel aside from a cab ride down the seacoast. It was nice walking into a bar and asking when they are open until and having the bartender just kind of shrug and throw up a tentative 4 fingers. Here they are yelling rude things and herding people to the door like cattle within moments of closing time.
Funny, I was actually going to write about my experience in France as well, though, for me it was more that the German tourists are very loud and make it impossible to get any peace and quite in the morning at the Hostel.
Though, the brit I ran into over there, who was living there teaching English, did talk about the arab communities there. Though most of his comments were about how well he was treated in their establishments and how "the white french are the most racist people you will ever meet".
Guess different people have different experiences.
> This is Linux were talking about. What could you possibly teach them without an internet > connection? The only use I see is teaching shell scripting or something, since other tasks like > package management, and sane server configuration kinda require an active internet connection.
Well Python, that is what he said he wanted to teach them:)
Beyond that, you are right, I say, the key is not security but recovery. Template boxes so that a new VM can be spun up effortlessly, then let them have at it. Segment the lab off from the rest of the network, maybe let the lab out to the internet, but not to the schools internal network.
However the key is, you can always blow away a machine and reimage it to get class moving, so there is no real danger in letting them play. Hell, I took a class that taught us administration and hacking eachother's machines was explicitly allowed, as long as it stayed in the lab. (we were also required to create a guest account as one of the exercises)
Gives the advanced kids who are bored with the class something to do that lets them learn too; I certanly had fun.
Its ok, I have a very low opinion of you based on this exchange too. Prone to overly emotional arguments that put rare and fantastic dangers over realistic and common ones.
As is thinking that they are a major cause of death, or even a large enough one to be worth talking about. For devices designed to cause death, they seem to be very ineffective at it so far.
I actually don't care one bit about events that are so incredibly rare. I have much more important and relevant things to worry about. Shit I drive a car, why would I even think about something so ludicrously unlikely as gun violence when I take my life in my hands every day just to get to work?
Probably? Actually this doesn't jive in any way with my experience with guns nor does it seem to be the case with any gun owners I have seen or talked to. I think there is too much guessing what other people are thinking and too much sensationalist media.
The vast majority of gun owners would rather not ever have to shoot anyone, regardless of whether they are able and willing if needed. In fact, the only times I have ever heard a gun owner say anything like that it was more "God forbid I ever have to use it, it would be terrible, but, if it comes down to someone elses life or my family, I will do what I have to".
The only exception to this that I have run into have been a couple of people who were embroiled in actual gang culture, but they are hardly the norm, nor are they anyone who is going to even be inconvenienced by the law.
> if it were true then every country would have more or less the same homicide rate but the means of murder > would be different.
I wouldn't expect that at all. You don't think the local homicide rate is effected by local policy? by local culture? by local socioeconomic conditions? How about remote ones?
I think you are spending far too much time looking at how people can kill eachother and not enough at why they do it. Guns don't spontaneously kill people, and thats the whole point and its absolutely true.
Bad policy and socioeconomic circumstances kill people. The drug war, which funds gangs that kills people.
> The homicide rate in the us is 2011 was 4.8 per 100,000. In Ireland 1.3 per 100,000. Note that in Ireland there is > not an additional 3.5 homicides by blunt instrument because people cant get guns.
1.3 to 4.8 IN 100,000 are virtually the same number. Thats not a big difference. Compare it to what actually kills people and, I wonder why you waste your time on this issue.
In this case, the experiment puts hydrogen atoms into a tight nickle lattice, with hydrogen in the interstitial positions, then radiates it with terrahertz radiation, which forces inverse beta decay of the hydrogen due to the lattice pressures and radiation, the neutrons are then forced into the nickle atoms, which then beta decay to become copper. The beauty of this is that you don't have to overcome the coulomb barrier, but still have a nuclear reaction taking place. In fact, the reverse beta decay of hydrogen is much lower energy than the beta decay of nickle.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I just don't see that here. Looks to me like a carefully setup demonstration made to look like evidence to people who are not paying attention. Maybe that is unfair, but, the fact is, this is an extraordinary claim...even the slightest appearance of impropriety cannot be allowed.
The article here is pretty damning. So far, it sounds like no real evidence has been presented, just claims and pretty pictures. Why wouldn't he unplug the device? Why keep its workings secret from examiners?
Surely he could apply for a patent? If he could demonstrate cold fusion working, with how it worked. I am sure he could win a patent and would have contracts and job offers from all over the world. Corperation and government alike would be falling over eachother to get access to his expertise. His bank account would grow beyond compare as would his name go down in the anals of human history...potentially as our savior.
All he needs do is really prove that it works, and describe how and why. All this talk of secret ingredients and refusals to allow inspections, refusals to unplug the device from the wall, suspect methods of testing, suspect reports of power input.... just doesn't add up. Why hold back when he doesn't have to? Why risk even the appearance of impropriety?
However as the summary stated: "If they get cut, then layoffs might be next"
So very true. Look, soda, junk food, coffee? How much does any of that cost? A few bucks here and there? You are right, its nothing, you can afford all of that on your salary now if you want it right?
But.... flip it around....its really cheap. So why take it away? If the company is hurting for cash, ending soda and coffee is such a small change that its not going to actually help anything. If the company is THAT strapped.... its time to worry.
Even if you don't take advantage of it, I would be wary of a company that cuts ANY perk that doesn't cost them much. In fact, I would just be worried about them cutting any perk at all, because it really shows what their priorities are, and... a change in the priority of "be an attractive place to work to employees" is a serious red flag.
I agree but, isn't the opposite also true? Just because its tax doesn't mean its good either.
I applaud them for every dollar they save from the grubby hands of the warmongering, US government that gleefully cuts education before its murder machine. This country doesn't deserve loyal taxpayers. This country deserves to take on the population of greece so they can show us how to really avoid tax like champs.
If they sold something other than crappy walled gardens, this might make me want to buy their products.
Slashdot Mirror
This is very true. It seems to go kinda like this:
Republican: National security is at risk, we must curtail civil rights!
Democrat: Hey you can't take people's rights away like that....you have to do it like this...then you can get everything you want AND prosecute anyone who leaks on it
Republican: Ok Deal.
Democrat: Now lets raise taxes to pay for it
Republican: Not so fast, how about we backdoor a tax hike to make it look like something else, and make sure we can shield ourselves and our friends
Democrat: Ok deal.....oh and we can fight about it and suck up all the air time so nobody talks about civil liberties
Republican: Now you are getting it.
obviously the hormonal impact of having children has clouded your ability to understand what child labor actually means and why it is generally banned. If you ever do get beyond that you will see what I mean, trust me.
Well I just had surgery, and let me tell you, serious institutions have taken steps to prevent some of those problems, even to the point of occasional absurdity. I was going in to have an incision reopened to remove more of a mass that had grown but the first surgery didn't completely remove.
You can't get much easier than a recent, visible, incision to tell you where to go. Still, I was asked by multiple people what the procedure I believed I was in for was, where it was, and why we were doing it, including the surgeon himself, who then took a marker and marked the area, and writing "yes" above it to signal that is the spot.
> What has actually happened to common sense ?
Common sense? You mean the body of ideas that tells you such gems as to swim against a riptide, pour water on a grease fire, and that this time its going to work and he can change?
No, Common sense is really the problem here. The problem is that people are not machines. Machines can be relied on to do something, do it every time, and do it even when there is no feedback mechanism. People cannot, they are not neat simple machines. They are dirty bags of mostly water.
Hand washing is one of those things that's so easy to forget when you are in a rush and when you do it right, it goes unnoticed. There is no feedback mechanism to say "you are starting to forget to do this", you just forget and nothing happens...and nothing happens....and nothing happens....until it does. People need feedback.
"Common sense" is nothing more than an excuse to do nothing of consequence and fix the blame for having done nothing on the people involved.
I don't consider that child labor so no. However, if you do, then yes, that's exactly what I would want; regardless of the label you put on it.
This is one of the things that worries me occasionally. Not as someone who does anything particularly illegal, but as someone who, every few years, gets interested in some new (or old) encryption tool and plays with it. I actually have a number of encrypted files, filesystems, keyrings, and Certificate authorities, which I have long since forgotten the passwords to.
Some of these would even be quite hard to deny linking to myself, but, I am no more able to access any of them than you are. Though one of the pgp keys I did recently find the disk containing its pregenerated revocation certificates.... if I only had a 3.5" floppy drive....
> what is happening is that they have evidence to move forward
> with an indictment, but they're trying to set a legal precedented to
> override the 5th for future cases, IMHO.
That is a possibility, but also, this evidence gives them another bite at the apple. The judge said no before because they couldn't link drives to him... now one drive can be linked to him.... so now they get to make their case again and say "Is this good enough?"
In the end its really about sticking him badly enough into a corner that he pleads guilty and saves them a trial. If he is still not decrypting drives, then he is still not really making the deal they want.
> This is basically the same tactic used in U.S. schools on the children
> now a days. You know, Billy said you did it, so why don't you tell
> us what you did...
That was my experience, I remember getting called down to the office because one of my teammates and I were horsing around after school one day around the locker room and someone reported some things stolen from a locker that night.
The guy they had in charge of discipline was pretty good, but, I bet he has done as many interrogations as a police detective. It was the same sort of deal, tell me what you saw, we know you were in the area, and I am going to bring him in here later so your stories better match up.
Though at the local resteraunt, they will ask you how you want the kitfo cooked :) I have never ordered it cooked but, they do offer.
I find it interesting that dishes with actual raw beef taste a bit different than rare meat, I have eaten some pretty thick steaks that were undercooked for medium rare, more towards rare, and they still don't quite have the same flavor as dishes with raw meat.
Raw is not my favorite way to have beef (it is my favorite for salmon and some other fish) but, its a nice for a change, once in a while.
That is kind of tangential to the point though. Yes, those are the terms, but, what the terms are doesn't address what they can be or why they are the way they are. I meant in more general terms, can you legally pay a minor without permission from their parent? Certainly, I imagine there are places and situations where you can, unambiguously and legally do so, but its not hard at all to imagine places and situations where you cannot or where whether you can is ambiguous.
I think this really boils down to a bunch of CYA, easiest thing to do with "minors" is set the cutoff age around where most countries make the distinction and sidestep the whole issue by not allowing minors, which, appears to be exactly what paypal decided to do.
Not that I blame them for wanting some CYA or wanting to punt on the whole issue, I wouldn't be shocked at all if the age limit came about as a response from the lawyers about how much research it would require.....or.... to simply the scenario even more, its not even a given that they ever considered the age issue. Its entirely likely it went like this:
"Legal said we are good on the bug bounty program, but this is the language they want added to the rules."
"Looks good, post it."
> on the other hand, the plaintiff plays the same probability game, and will only sue if there's a good
> chance of seeing some $$
Well no, its if they believe there is a good chance, which is different from whether there is, but also, whether there is depends on what court in what country. My point is, this looks pretty clearly like it was CYA from the begining and likely something they didn't think through since it was likely viewed as more trouble than its worth.
There is only one reason to restrict it...legal CYA. Remember everywhere in the world makes their own laws and many of them have restrictions on what one can do with young people, which includes paying them.
Does paying a minor, even for such a voluntary action, require parental approval? If a 15 year old submits a bug, gets paid, and uses the money to buy drugs, could the parent sue, claiming they were irresponsible to give so much money to a teenager directly?
Remember, lawmakers are lazy, they like to be overly broad or not think things through, I could totally see legislative attempts at curbing anything from drug use to underage prostitution hamfistedly creating problems here. Law is often not limited by its own intentions.
In the end, I bet the answer has three letters: CYA:
"What are the implications of allowing people under 18 to submit bugs?"
"It depends on......."
"Ok sorry I asked; no submissions from people under 18."
For me it was just an administration and programing course, and we didn't actually have VMs, each team had a physical box. Still we had some fun. When setting up the guest account one of the other teams made /home world writeable...ooops... I had fun with that.... took me a few minutes to move everyone's home dirs aside and replace them with new ones with a new .profile which would copy /bin/sh to a new dir and make it setuid to their own user...then fix their home dir and exec the shell again :)
Joke was on me, of course, as they ignored the advice that they should use their own named user accounts and not just log on as root all the time, none of the users ever logged in. However, the instructor saw what I had done and thought that team was messing with him, so he gave them an extra hard test at the end... accidentally giving them a problem that they couldn't solve. Oops :)
He was white, as am I. Actually, we were in a mostly English speaking bar near the local train station. "Rednecks" if you are ever in Nice. The guy was sitting by the bar and we began speaking in French, until he switched to English and threw me for a loop, since I my French isn't good enough to discern an English accent.
If I remember right it started with him telling me how he just gave some people directions to this other bar but, that they were going to hate the place when they get there because its in an Arab neighbourhood and the white French are some of the most racist people you will ever meet.
Completely aside, I was there during a train strike, and had no way back to my hotel aside from a cab ride down the seacoast. It was nice walking into a bar and asking when they are open until and having the bartender just kind of shrug and throw up a tentative 4 fingers. Here they are yelling rude things and herding people to the door like cattle within moments of closing time.
Funny, I was actually going to write about my experience in France as well, though, for me it was more that the German tourists are very loud and make it impossible to get any peace and quite in the morning at the Hostel.
Though, the brit I ran into over there, who was living there teaching English, did talk about the arab communities there. Though most of his comments were about how well he was treated in their establishments and how "the white french are the most racist people you will ever meet".
Guess different people have different experiences.
> This is Linux were talking about. What could you possibly teach them without an internet
> connection? The only use I see is teaching shell scripting or something, since other tasks like
> package management, and sane server configuration kinda require an active internet connection.
Well Python, that is what he said he wanted to teach them :)
Beyond that, you are right, I say, the key is not security but recovery. Template boxes so that a new VM can be spun up effortlessly, then let them have at it. Segment the lab off from the rest of the network, maybe let the lab out to the internet, but not to the schools internal network.
However the key is, you can always blow away a machine and reimage it to get class moving, so there is no real danger in letting them play. Hell, I took a class that taught us administration and hacking eachother's machines was explicitly allowed, as long as it stayed in the lab. (we were also required to create a guest account as one of the exercises)
Gives the advanced kids who are bored with the class something to do that lets them learn too; I certanly had fun.
no I was making the argument that 1 in 100,000 ~= 3 in 100,000. So I was, in fact, taking into account what they represent, tiny fractions.
Its ok, I have a very low opinion of you based on this exchange too. Prone to overly emotional arguments that put rare and fantastic dangers over realistic and common ones.
As is thinking that they are a major cause of death, or even a large enough one to be worth talking about. For devices designed to cause death, they seem to be very ineffective at it so far.
I actually don't care one bit about events that are so incredibly rare. I have much more important and relevant things to worry about. Shit I drive a car, why would I even think about something so ludicrously unlikely as gun violence when I take my life in my hands every day just to get to work?
3 grains of sand on the floor is 3 times one grain. Its still, an insignificant amount of dust on the floor.
Probably? Actually this doesn't jive in any way with my experience with guns nor does it seem to be the case with any gun owners I have seen or talked to. I think there is too much guessing what other people are thinking and too much sensationalist media.
The vast majority of gun owners would rather not ever have to shoot anyone, regardless of whether they are able and willing if needed. In fact, the only times I have ever heard a gun owner say anything like that it was more "God forbid I ever have to use it, it would be terrible, but, if it comes down to someone elses life or my family, I will do what I have to".
The only exception to this that I have run into have been a couple of people who were embroiled in actual gang culture, but they are hardly the norm, nor are they anyone who is going to even be inconvenienced by the law.
> if it were true then every country would have more or less the same homicide rate but the means of murder
> would be different.
I wouldn't expect that at all. You don't think the local homicide rate is effected by local policy? by local culture? by local socioeconomic conditions? How about remote ones?
I think you are spending far too much time looking at how people can kill eachother and not enough at why they do it. Guns don't spontaneously kill people, and thats the whole point and its absolutely true.
Bad policy and socioeconomic circumstances kill people. The drug war, which funds gangs that kills people.
> The homicide rate in the us is 2011 was 4.8 per 100,000. In Ireland 1.3 per 100,000. Note that in Ireland there is
> not an additional 3.5 homicides by blunt instrument because people cant get guns.
1.3 to 4.8 IN 100,000 are virtually the same number. Thats not a big difference. Compare it to what actually kills people and, I wonder why you waste your time on this issue.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I just don't see that here. Looks to me like a carefully setup demonstration made to look like evidence to people who are not paying attention. Maybe that is unfair, but, the fact is, this is an extraordinary claim...even the slightest appearance of impropriety cannot be allowed.
The article here is pretty damning. So far, it sounds like no real evidence has been presented, just claims and pretty pictures. Why wouldn't he unplug the device? Why keep its workings secret from examiners?
Surely he could apply for a patent? If he could demonstrate cold fusion working, with how it worked. I am sure he could win a patent and would have contracts and job offers from all over the world. Corperation and government alike would be falling over eachother to get access to his expertise. His bank account would grow beyond compare as would his name go down in the anals of human history...potentially as our savior.
All he needs do is really prove that it works, and describe how and why. All this talk of secret ingredients and refusals to allow inspections, refusals to unplug the device from the wall, suspect methods of testing, suspect reports of power input.... just doesn't add up. Why hold back when he doesn't have to? Why risk even the appearance of impropriety?
However as the summary stated: "If they get cut, then layoffs might be next"
So very true. Look, soda, junk food, coffee? How much does any of that cost? A few bucks here and there? You are right, its nothing, you can afford all of that on your salary now if you want it right?
But.... flip it around....its really cheap. So why take it away? If the company is hurting for cash, ending soda and coffee is such a small change that its not going to actually help anything. If the company is THAT strapped.... its time to worry.
Even if you don't take advantage of it, I would be wary of a company that cuts ANY perk that doesn't cost them much. In fact, I would just be worried about them cutting any perk at all, because it really shows what their priorities are, and... a change in the priority of "be an attractive place to work to employees" is a serious red flag.
I agree but, isn't the opposite also true? Just because its tax doesn't mean its good either.
I applaud them for every dollar they save from the grubby hands of the warmongering, US government that gleefully cuts education before its murder machine. This country doesn't deserve loyal taxpayers. This country deserves to take on the population of greece so they can show us how to really avoid tax like champs.
If they sold something other than crappy walled gardens, this might make me want to buy their products.