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It's unusual to hear someone praising ITAR. ITAR is the reason that non-US organisations generally don't use US launchers for their payloads -- they can't work closely with the launch provider, particularly with respect to the sort of detailed technical information that's often very important in ensuring payload-launcher compatibility. People I've spoken to in the space industry while at conferences in the US frequently bemoan the fact that ITAR heavily restricts their hiring practices, meaning that they often miss out on being able to employ top people. ITAR is what's holding the US space programme back.

Completely agreed. It's particularly silly when one notes that the US would have almost certainly lost the 1960s space race if it weren't for Von Braun and his team of rocket engineers from Germay, and the Canadian and British engineers from Avro.

It also makes it considerably more difficult when a launch provider like SpaceX wants to sell launch services, which is a large part of why Russian and European launch providers are currently creaming US launch providers on the international market. For example, the following difficulty occurred when SpaceX's Falcon 1 was launching a Malaysian satellite:

http://www.hobbyspace.com/nucleus/?itemid=13078

Technicians discovered the satellite and the Falcon 1 upper stage rocket share a nearly identical vibrational mode, which could set up a damaging resonance. SpaceX is bound by ITAR restrictions from assisting with any technical problems on the foreign-owned payload, so the company delayed the launch to add some vibration isolation equipment between the rocket's upper stage and the payload adapter.

"The easiest thing would actually be to make some adjustment to the satellite . . . but that's not allowed," Musk says.

A lot of them were, actually. They were hired after the Avro debacle and the debate about "Canada's brilliant design" for a fighter goes on to this day. To summarize, the official story is that the Americans didn't want to buy it due to NIH syndrome and felt that fighter planes were obsoleted by long-range missiles.

That would have been nice but it wasn't going to happen. Read up on the Avro Arrow http://www.avroarrow.org/Cancellation.htm to see what happens when Canada competes with the U.S. But, at least the technologies went forward and the talents were put to use, if not for Canada then at least for our Southern Neighbor. I, like those very talented people who made the Avro have also moved South where it is far more advantageous to be smart than my home country (Canada). Sad, but true. Maybe the US government needs to import a few more of us into the military again... ;)

Don't forget the Avro Arrow, which the Canadian entry is named after, was a jet fighter that was very advanced for its time. The program was cancelled by the Canadian government due to pressure from the US government.

Most of the engineers who worked at Avro went to work for the US space program. Yet again picking the best scientists from the spoils of, this time, a political war.

It boggles the mind all those connections.

If you're in Canada visiting mention "Avro Arrow" and see what reaction you get even now all these years later.

Arrow info

The Canadian Arrow was named after the Avro Arrow, a revolutionary jet interceptor built in Canada in the 1950s during the height of the cold war. It was years ahead of any other jet interceptor design at the time.

"A source of national pride, the Arrow incorporated advanced technical innovations and became a symbol of Canadian excellence.

One of the finest achievements in Canadian aviation history, the delta wing Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow was never allowed to fulfill its mission. The Arrow weapons platform along with the Iroquois engine was cancelled by the Conservative Diefenbaker government February 20, 1959, less then 3 weeks before the MK2 Arrow was to take flight."

http://www.avroarrow.org/

You owe us anyways. If it weren't for the hordes of Canadian engineers that NASA hired after the closure of the Avro Arrow project in Canada, you guys would've been lucky to get to orbit, nevermind the moon.

Very convenient that those engineers were available, wasn't it? The cancellation of the Avro Arrow of course had nothing to do with a US demand that we participate in missile defense instead (sounds familiar...)

Where does it say those people are Canadian?

You're right, they weren't all Canadian; a few were British.

Really, do I have to do the googling for you?

AVRO Canada had a working flying saucer back in the height of the cold war.
Link: http://www.avroarrow.org/Avrocar/Avrocar.html

They may have stuck around for the shuttle program, but the Avro engineers that went south, went long before the shuttle was even a scribble on a napkin, they went to the mercury/gemini/apollo programs.

Yes it's true, the Arrow was way ahead of it's time. Consider a mach 2 fly by wire fighter that could operate 2000 mile missions un-refueled, capable of operating in both fighter and bomber modes. Actually, come to think about it, look around, still not much flying today that can do that. But, doesn't matter, it's ancient history, and was scrapped for really stupid political reasons. So be it.

The real interesting part is looking where the Avro engineers really went. McDonnel Douglas was 'first on scene' offering lucrative positions, but, the overall leader in early hiring turned out to be a fledgling government operation called NASA. They had a need for engineers to deal with supersonic and hypersonic aerodynamic problems on thier launch vehicles, Avro had engineers that had solved a lot of these already. Nasa was there offering lucrative salaries with relocation and 'instant citizenship' to bypass some of the red tape problems of having foreigners working on those projects. To aggressive young engineers that had just seen thier life work destroyed, the opportunity to go put a man on the moon was irresistable. For some more details, check this out here , an article on the reunion.

While you are there, check out the Jetliner, and note, it was flying in the 40's already. Then look at the arrow facts. An example 'On its third flight, the aircraft was flown supersonically at Mach 1.1. On its seventh flight, it exceeded 1,000 mph while climbing. '. Approaching mach 2 in a climb at a time when american fighter companies could barely make thier machines go supersonic in a vertical dive.

It's really interesting to look at the positions these engineers attained with Nasa, here's just a couple snaps from the above link, there's a bunch more there.

Jim Chamberlin
The former designer of the Arrow who went on to design the Gemini spacecraft and help NASA decide how to go to the Moon.
Project Manager Mercury, Designer and Project Manager Gemini Technical Advisor and Troubleshooter for Bob Gilruth, MSC Director (Apollo). Shuttle concepts

Owen Maynard Owen Maynard, the engineer from Sarnia, Ont., who quickly rose through the ranks to give life to the Apollo Lunar Module and later oversee the engineering effort on Apollo.
NASA Space Task Force, Chief Engineering Designer of the Lunar Landing Module.

Rod Rose The British engineer who helped plan the Apollo missions and picked out the first prayer to be broadcast from space.
Rockets, Mission Operations assistant to Chris Kraft. Apollo and Shuttle mission planning

We also made the first jet airliner in North America, and for a while had the fastest, nastiest jet fighter in the world. To the day he died my Dad never forgave them for that one...

I remember reading about one of the local startups trying to raise some money from the banks. The banks demanded collateral and the company proudly showed them 20 copies of their product, worth $2000 each. The banks sneered "That's a box of floppy discs. It's worth $10. Go away."

...laura

Maybe they don't want to produce it because of pressure from the U.S.

Dare I say Avro Arrow?

The Avro Arrow was a plane produced by Canada that was years ahead of its time. Unfortunately, because of the immense pressure from the U.S. (they didn't want Canada to sell the technology to other countries), the project got shut down.

Yes, there's a little more to it than that, but that's the basic jist.

Read more about the Avro Arrow and the politics behind it at wikipedia.

...who cares about the Canadian Arrow? The real Arrow is the Avro Arrow.

Stupid Diefengovernmentwankers.

Canada had the most brilliant fighter plane design, something like 20 years in advance of his time, but when the "Parti Conservateur" took place instead of Liberal party, they cut the Avro Arrow project just because it came from another political party. Frnace and many other country were waiting in line to buy either the engine or complete planes. It didn't count. Instead, Canada bought crappy outdated missiles from US and also paid for manpower to have them deployed in the great north. It finally came out it was a big financial disaster, but they completely dismantled the Arrow plane project (destroying planes thet were completed and ready to fly) so everything was lost and they could not go back. (sorry for my bad english!)

Ever since Canada made the move of stopping production and research on the Avro Arrow , we have fallen so far behind the space program that countries with smaller available budgets and starving people are bypassing us in space research, which is supposed to be the "final" frontier. Canada could atleast put forth and try launching atleast one space probe a year and contributing more to the greater good of humans and helping out with space research.