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I had to look it up, as I had forgotten the story of Lot, also.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lot_(Bible)

Lot offers up his daughters to be raped (pretty sleazy, IMO):

[God] sends angels to the city of Sodom where they meet Lot at the city gates. Lot seems greatly concerned that the angels should spend the night in his house but the angels insist they wish to spend the night in the city street. Lot puts a great deal of pressure on them and eventually convinces them. However all the people of Sodom surround Lots house with intent to meet (in some translations, rape) the angels (19:5). Lot offers the men his daughters instead, whom he says are virgins (19:8)

Lot's daughters, thinking they are the only humans left, get their dad drunk so that they can conceive:

In Gen. 19:30-38, Lot's daughters incorrectly believed they were the only people to have survived the devastation They assumed it was their responsibility to bear children and enable the continuation of the human race.... On two subsequent nights, according to the plan of the older daughter, they got their father drunk enough to have sexual intercourse with them. By him each became pregnant.

Wikipedia has some [citation needed] tags; I will offer verses 29-33 from the first google hit for "genesis 19":

29) And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.
30) And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
31) And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
32) Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
33) And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

So, I'd say that the sleeping-with-his-daughters thing isn't quite his fault. It either the "omg we're the last humans alive" scenario, as far as they knew, or perhaps just "we don't want our bloodline to die". Weird either way, and not something I'd want to do, but I don't think it's worth tarring Lot for it. :)

Lot, however, is considered to be a particularly good servant of god because he grabbed up his family and fled, never looking back, as he was told. DO AS YOU ARE TOLD, that is the message... And Lot is not forgotten.

I agree, Lot is not forgotten. Perhaps I should have said, "Compared to Moses, Lot is barely remembered...". Lot's story is told in four chapters of Genesis, whereas Moses appears in multiple books.

I disagree that Lot is remembered as a "particularly good servant." The OT tells how he offered his daughters to a crowd of gang-rapers (Genesis 19:8), had sex with his daughters (Genesis 19:33), took the best land for himself (Genesis 13:10-11), etc. He's remembered as a barely good servant. The kind of guy you think, how is he a good man???

Lot, however, is considered to be a particularly good servant of god because he grabbed up his family and fled, never looking back, as he was told. DO AS YOU ARE TOLD, that is the message... And Lot is not forgotten.

I agree, Lot is not forgotten. Perhaps I should have said, "Compared to Moses, Lot is barely remembered...". Lot's story is told in four chapters of Genesis, whereas Moses appears in multiple books.

I disagree that Lot is remembered as a "particularly good servant." The OT tells how he offered his daughters to a crowd of gang-rapers (Genesis 19:8), had sex with his daughters (Genesis 19:33), took the best land for himself (Genesis 13:10-11), etc. He's remembered as a barely good servant. The kind of guy you think, how is he a good man???

Don't you love it when people get really clever at following the words of a law for the purpose of evading the spirit of a law?

Yeah, it's especially funny when you try to get people to explain. Seriously though, it's very hard to understand the spirit of the law when there is no justification whatsoever. In cases like these, we have to either `interpret' the law in context or take it as the word of god. The former is hard to justify without discrediting the source, and the latter is impossible simply because the bible contradicts itself.

While I'm sure that there are also moral reasons for it, the prohibitions against lending money at interest found in various religions really seem to be designed to prevent a house-of-cards situation like what the USA currently has with the Federal Reserve, [...]

Dunno, charging interest isn't the problem of World Wide Depression II, quite the opposite actually, the lack of interest fueled much of it. In any case, you'd think there would be better solutions than simply outlawing interest. Let's do some highly selective quoting, and try to infer the author's motivation.

Do not charge your brother interest, whether on money or food or anything else that may earn interest. [Deuteronomy 23:19]

The word 'brother' is probably one of those words that can be translated and interpreted in a million ways. If we take it literal, it would explain a lot. I for one wouldn't charge interest to money I lend to my brother. I guess the author was just an honest, hard working family man.

But let's assume it was god's foresight into our financial derivatives that motivated Him to forbid interest. Maybe even He couldn't make sense of them either, so he decided to outlaw all of it. Funny thing that all the Christian leaders did not heed His Word. I suppose that's why He decided to punish that one nation under god the most, although that remains to be seen.

One thing I'm sure of. The 'eat no pork' rule has definitely been written by a chicken or cow farmer. Nothing has changed in that respect, the farm lobby is strong as ever.

If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. Do not take interest of any kind from him, but fear your God, so that your countryman may continue to live among you. You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at a profit. Lev 25:35-37

Do not charge your brother interest, whether on money or food or anything else that may earn interest. You may charge a foreigner interest, but not a brother Israelite, so that the LORD your God may bless you in everything you put your hand to in the land you are entering to possess. Deut 20:19-20

If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. Do not take interest of any kind from him, but fear your God, so that your countryman may continue to live among you. You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at a profit. Lev 25:35-37

Do not charge your brother interest, whether on money or food or anything else that may earn interest. You may charge a foreigner interest, but not a brother Israelite, so that the LORD your God may bless you in everything you put your hand to in the land you are entering to possess. Deut 20:19-20

Check the statistics on charitable giving to see what I mean.

I'm curious: are there statistics that compensate for population size and wealth? Are there stats that separate ideological and cultural giving from actually-helping-people giving?

I remember FOX reporting that Americans donated more money per capita than European nations, neglecting to mention that they donated less per capita relative to their wealth. A guy named Jesus warned about this type of stastical manipulation.

Nevertheless, it's silly to use charitable giving as a proxy for discussing the effectiveness of political philosophies and policies. Both left and right have generated lots of dumb ideas, and underneath it all are political power structures that don't really care about you.

What's their official take on Luke 20:27-40, then?

May I suggest using a bit more modern translation? No real reason to use old and bad translations except that it sounds a bit ritual :)
This one seems to be a bit better:
New International Reader's Version

If by "the religious" you're referring to everyone who considers themselves to belong to a particular religion, be careful. A lot of religious people are strong supporters of the First Amendment (along with the rest of the Constitution).

On the other hand, if you mean the hypocritical religious leaders that Jesus Christ ranted about in Matthew 23, the ones who "love the place of honor at banquets" and "love to be greeted in the marketplaces," then yeah, those people suck.

"They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Everything they do is done for men to see," Jesus said, and they "have neglected the more important matters of the law - justice, mercy and faithfulness.... On the outside [they] appear to people as righteous but on the inside [they] are full of hypocrisy and wickedness."

Funny how human nature hasn't changed in 2,000 years.

are only valuable if they are believed to be based on truth. If any of the statements of the Bible can be shown to be untrue, then how can we know that the statements that cannot be verified are not also false? Jesus referred to the creation account, specifically when asked about divorce and marriage. If the creation account, as found in the Bible is demonstrably false, then why should Jesus reference to it not be equally false and therefore be disregarded? If the foundational statements about God and creation in Genesis are false, then why should the rest of the statements from anywhere in Scripture not also be false?

You are making some assumptions here.

• The Bible's creation account is literal. Many Christians dispute this; they say Genesis is figurative, and point to translation discrepencies (e.g. the word "day" having multiple meanings, even within the same passages). It is a literary narrative, not a scientific textbook.
• Jesus' referral to the creation account meant he was a 6-Day Creationist. Your reference is to Mark 10, which says this: "It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law [allowing divorce]," Jesus replied. "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." Jesus could easily be appealing to internal consistency problems within the Pharisee's own beliefs to prove them wrong, rather than making a statement about science and creationism.
• When one part is wrong, we must throw out everything. This is a false argument. You would have to stop looking at the Internet and all magazines, newspapers, television shows, blogs, etc., if this were the case.

If God created time and physics, and is outside of these systems, then why does he need to be created? Or as God puts it himself in the Bible, "I AM".

That's exactly what Jesus said. Jesus said He is a light come into the world. People hate him because if they came to the light, their evil deeds would be exposed.

Source

There's nothing new under the sun.

I read the links. For someone divinely inspired, you're not a very good guesser.

I didn't see anything in there about "1914". Nor do I see the number "1914" anywhere in "the" bible.

The other "bibles" I'm talking about are those held sacred (and literal) by other faiths, such as the Mahabarata and other Vedic scriptures, any number of Buddhist sutras, the oral traditions of North American tribes, the Greek, Roman or Egyptian texts and traditions, and on and on around the world. Of course you don't think of those as "the bible", but rather just some superstition, but of course their believers think the same of yours, and of each other.

There are other things that have changed. Even the Hebrew torah changed in important ways about 2000 years ago, and there's plenty of analysis showing it changed from an original form to its form around the time of the Roman conquest in specific sections. And of course the original christian canon of over 400 different texts was reduced to the 4 in the "new testament" by a christian order about 1600 years ago. The persistence of biblical transcription and consistency through the millennia is still remarkable, but owes to the priority for exact transcription, and the fear of punishment for failure in both the living world, and the expected "afterlife". Zoroastrian gospel has been at least as consistent since about 3000 years ago, while spending its first millennium transmitted only orally, with at least as many "efforts to destroy it entirely".

There is no evidence that "the" bible you prefer is effective for family life, work ethic, view of money, treatment of fellow man, etc. Practically no one follows the entire literal prescriptions of the bible, to the exclusion of any other source of life guidance. And there are plenty of perfectly functional and happy people who follow their own bibles, with little influence sourced from "the" bible you prefer.

I know "the" bible, and its blindered, faithy adherents (of many denominations, many bibles), quite well, thank you. I also know science and reason, which make it easy to debunk any of the bible worshippers' contrived arguments like you've offered here. The only way that bible worship ever meets science and reason with any chance of survival is by willful blindness, or acceptance of science and reason debunking the bible except as a self-programming exercise in pure metaphysics.

The bible's got some good lessons, co-evolving with a successful style of civilization the dominance of which self-selects for successful life strategies within its constructed values. But it's a work of humans, even if quite an excellent one. Except maybe when it doesn't matter what's true, and what you're looking for is a good story to share with other people you like, when believing it's something supernatural is harmless fun. Taking it further than that is unwarranted, and usually leads to terrible consequences fairly quickly.

Ah, excellent. So all of these translations are definitively correct (including 21 different English-language editions)?

I'm so glad that the Word of God is so clearly defined.

>They pay the same percentage in sales tax as the rich. The rich don't get a free ride. The poor aren't treated unfairly. In amount, the rich pay a lot more than the poor, simply because they buy more. Except in Oregon, where nobody pays any sales tax.

I believe the GP poster was referring to the percentage of their income paid by the poor for sales tax, not the percentage rate of the sales tax itself. For a better illustration of why this is regressive, have a read of the parable of the widow's offering in the Bible. Oregon doesn't levy sales taxes because sales tax is regressive by design, since it charges everyone the same taxes on the basics that everyone must buy in order to survive. A moral case can be made for a uniform rate of sales tax on big-ticket luxury goods, but not on food, for example.

Jews think he was a pretty decent guy

Tell that to these guys:

When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"

All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!"

Matthew 27:24-25

*Oh, come on, don't forget your sense of humor!

Ephesians 5:22-23 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, and he is the saviour of the body. - That's right. Get back in the kitchen! Get back to submitting and quit telling me to take out the garbage.

That's one of the Bible verses which is most often quoted out of context. If you read it in context then the wife gets off lightly. She only has to submit to her husband: he has to sacrifice his life for her.

Deuteronomy 22:28 If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. - Pants are bad but rape is OK as long as you pay for it and marry her.

It's not saying that rape is OK. This needs to be read with the cultural context in mind: without this law, the woman would simply be left unmarried and unmarriageable. The remedy for this tort is that the man must give her social status and support her financially for the rest of her life. Sure, she gets a rough deal, but it's better than she would have got otherwise.

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

However, we're still warned not to continue sinning and to avoid sexual immorality.
Romans 13:13

Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.

1 Corinthians 6

The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never!

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

However, we're still warned not to continue sinning and to avoid sexual immorality.
Romans 13:13

Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.

1 Corinthians 6

The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never!

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

However, we're still warned not to continue sinning and to avoid sexual immorality.
Romans 13:13

Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.

1 Corinthians 6

The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never!

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

However, we're still warned not to continue sinning and to avoid sexual immorality.
Romans 13:13

Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.

1 Corinthians 6

The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never!

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2015:1-20;&version=31;

The Biblegateway site is primarily, from my understanding, focused on Protestant translations of the 66 books of what is generally agreed apon as the Protestant Bible, and is limited some by copyright issues (it is costly for them to have the NIV Bible on there, for example, and they can only have so many). It does not contain the Catholic Apocrypha (that I've seen), nor does it contain the book of Mormon or other texts not included in the canonical Protestant Bible.

Even in ministries like this, they have to pick a niche, and having the dozens of various Protestant translations into English, and various translations into other languages, is rather impressive.

I look forward to reading the JPS 1917, but I don't believe that including it at BibleGateway.com would fit into their mission for the site.

Because of the limited space in my sig, I ommitted the word "Christian" from my sig, and if I had unlimited space, it would have read as:

Before commenting on the Christian Bible, please read it first, in various translations, so as to understand it fully.

You could refer to Romans 8, where it talks about the law of sin and death (Old Testament) and the new freedom you have in accepting Jesus as Savior. Here is a handy link of the passage: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208;&version=31; Or you could read Acts, and find where Peter discovers gentiles can be saved (acts 4) and then read Acts 15, where it is said that gentiles do not need to follow the law of the old Testament to be saved. (Just put in acts 4 or acts 15 in the same link) Or you could read Galations 2 where it talks about a specific application of not being under the law anymore. This concept is discussed all over the New Testament.

Not all of it. Portions of the NT also say that homosexuality is a sin.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Or (A)do you not know that the unrighteous will not (B)inherit the kingdom of God? (C)Do not be deceived; (D)neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, nor homosexuals,

  10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will (E)inherit the kingdom of God.

Now most homophobic Christians will point out the bits in the Old Testament because the're the more common arguments, and they're also the ones which are most often taught by their pastors, but it does exist outside of the OT.

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_homosexuality#Passages_from_the_New_Testament

Christianity is a pretty good bet. But you have to read the bible to find that out, they won't tell you in church. In church they'll tell you "God helps those who help themselves." In the bible, it says God helps people when they are helpless. In church they'll tell you that God is going to burn various people in hell forever. In the bible, it says that God will reconcile all things to himself. How is he going to reconcile all things to himself, if some of those things are burning in hell forever? Here are some verses from the bible supporting the concept that God loves everybody and wants everybody in heaven. And according to the bible, God always gets what he wants.

• Christ died for us at a time when we were helpless and sinful. But God showed how much he loved us by having Christ die for us, even though we were sinful. (Rom 5:6,8) Christ died for sinners. He owns them, all of them, because he bought them with his blood. If he owns those sinners, if he loves them, if he bought them, why would he burn them in hell forever?
• God wants everyone to be saved and to know the whole truth. (1Tim2:4) He does as he chooses in heaven and on earth and deep in the sea. (Psalm 135:6) God wants everyone to be saved, and God always gets what he wants.
• If any of you has a hundred sheep, and one of them gets lost, what will you do? Won't you leave the ninety-nine in the field and go look for the lost sheep until you find it? And when you find it, you will be so glad that you will put it on your shoulder and carry it home. Then you will call in your friends and neighbors and say, "Let's celebrate! I've found my lost sheep." Jesus said, "In the same way there is more happiness in heaven because of one sinner who turns to God than over ninety-nine good people who don't need to." (Luke 15:4-7) Who are Jesus's sheep? Is Jesus going to rest while any of his sheep aren't in his fold? Would Jesus be satisfied with having 99% of people in heaven?
• God did not send his Son into the world to condemn its people. He sent him to save them! (John 3:17) Jesus's mission was to save the people of the world. Did he succeed in his mission? Ask your preacher!
• And God was pleased for him to make peace by sacrificing his blood on the cross, so that all beings in heaven and on earth would be brought back to God. (Colossians 1:20) Are you a being? Are you in heaven or on earth? Congratulations, you're going to heaven to be with God!

If you read the new testament, keep an eye open for where it says "everyone", "all people", "all things", etc. Then ask yourself, if the bible says so many times that God loves everybody and will save everybody, why are so many people saying that the bible says the opposite? What benefit do those churches and preachers get by not telling people what the bible says?

The Lord isn't slow about keeping his promises, as some people think he is. In fact, God is patient, because he wants everyone to turn from sin and no one to be lost. 2 Peter 3:9

Further reading

Christianity is a pretty good bet. But you have to read the bible to find that out, they won't tell you in church. In church they'll tell you "God helps those who help themselves." In the bible, it says God helps people when they are helpless. In church they'll tell you that God is going to burn various people in hell forever. In the bible, it says that God will reconcile all things to himself. How is he going to reconcile all things to himself, if some of those things are burning in hell forever? Here are some verses from the bible supporting the concept that God loves everybody and wants everybody in heaven. And according to the bible, God always gets what he wants.

• Christ died for us at a time when we were helpless and sinful. But God showed how much he loved us by having Christ die for us, even though we were sinful. (Rom 5:6,8) Christ died for sinners. He owns them, all of them, because he bought them with his blood. If he owns those sinners, if he loves them, if he bought them, why would he burn them in hell forever?
• God wants everyone to be saved and to know the whole truth. (1Tim2:4) He does as he chooses in heaven and on earth and deep in the sea. (Psalm 135:6) God wants everyone to be saved, and God always gets what he wants.
• If any of you has a hundred sheep, and one of them gets lost, what will you do? Won't you leave the ninety-nine in the field and go look for the lost sheep until you find it? And when you find it, you will be so glad that you will put it on your shoulder and carry it home. Then you will call in your friends and neighbors and say, "Let's celebrate! I've found my lost sheep." Jesus said, "In the same way there is more happiness in heaven because of one sinner who turns to God than over ninety-nine good people who don't need to." (Luke 15:4-7) Who are Jesus's sheep? Is Jesus going to rest while any of his sheep aren't in his fold? Would Jesus be satisfied with having 99% of people in heaven?
• God did not send his Son into the world to condemn its people. He sent him to save them! (John 3:17) Jesus's mission was to save the people of the world. Did he succeed in his mission? Ask your preacher!
• And God was pleased for him to make peace by sacrificing his blood on the cross, so that all beings in heaven and on earth would be brought back to God. (Colossians 1:20) Are you a being? Are you in heaven or on earth? Congratulations, you're going to heaven to be with God!

If you read the new testament, keep an eye open for where it says "everyone", "all people", "all things", etc. Then ask yourself, if the bible says so many times that God loves everybody and will save everybody, why are so many people saying that the bible says the opposite? What benefit do those churches and preachers get by not telling people what the bible says?

The Lord isn't slow about keeping his promises, as some people think he is. In fact, God is patient, because he wants everyone to turn from sin and no one to be lost. 2 Peter 3:9

Further reading

Christianity is a pretty good bet. But you have to read the bible to find that out, they won't tell you in church. In church they'll tell you "God helps those who help themselves." In the bible, it says God helps people when they are helpless. In church they'll tell you that God is going to burn various people in hell forever. In the bible, it says that God will reconcile all things to himself. How is he going to reconcile all things to himself, if some of those things are burning in hell forever? Here are some verses from the bible supporting the concept that God loves everybody and wants everybody in heaven. And according to the bible, God always gets what he wants.

• Christ died for us at a time when we were helpless and sinful. But God showed how much he loved us by having Christ die for us, even though we were sinful. (Rom 5:6,8) Christ died for sinners. He owns them, all of them, because he bought them with his blood. If he owns those sinners, if he loves them, if he bought them, why would he burn them in hell forever?
• God wants everyone to be saved and to know the whole truth. (1Tim2:4) He does as he chooses in heaven and on earth and deep in the sea. (Psalm 135:6) God wants everyone to be saved, and God always gets what he wants.
• If any of you has a hundred sheep, and one of them gets lost, what will you do? Won't you leave the ninety-nine in the field and go look for the lost sheep until you find it? And when you find it, you will be so glad that you will put it on your shoulder and carry it home. Then you will call in your friends and neighbors and say, "Let's celebrate! I've found my lost sheep." Jesus said, "In the same way there is more happiness in heaven because of one sinner who turns to God than over ninety-nine good people who don't need to." (Luke 15:4-7) Who are Jesus's sheep? Is Jesus going to rest while any of his sheep aren't in his fold? Would Jesus be satisfied with having 99% of people in heaven?
• God did not send his Son into the world to condemn its people. He sent him to save them! (John 3:17) Jesus's mission was to save the people of the world. Did he succeed in his mission? Ask your preacher!
• And God was pleased for him to make peace by sacrificing his blood on the cross, so that all beings in heaven and on earth would be brought back to God. (Colossians 1:20) Are you a being? Are you in heaven or on earth? Congratulations, you're going to heaven to be with God!

If you read the new testament, keep an eye open for where it says "everyone", "all people", "all things", etc. Then ask yourself, if the bible says so many times that God loves everybody and will save everybody, why are so many people saying that the bible says the opposite? What benefit do those churches and preachers get by not telling people what the bible says?

The Lord isn't slow about keeping his promises, as some people think he is. In fact, God is patient, because he wants everyone to turn from sin and no one to be lost. 2 Peter 3:9

Further reading

Christianity is a pretty good bet. But you have to read the bible to find that out, they won't tell you in church. In church they'll tell you "God helps those who help themselves." In the bible, it says God helps people when they are helpless. In church they'll tell you that God is going to burn various people in hell forever. In the bible, it says that God will reconcile all things to himself. How is he going to reconcile all things to himself, if some of those things are burning in hell forever? Here are some verses from the bible supporting the concept that God loves everybody and wants everybody in heaven. And according to the bible, God always gets what he wants.

• Christ died for us at a time when we were helpless and sinful. But God showed how much he loved us by having Christ die for us, even though we were sinful. (Rom 5:6,8) Christ died for sinners. He owns them, all of them, because he bought them with his blood. If he owns those sinners, if he loves them, if he bought them, why would he burn them in hell forever?
• God wants everyone to be saved and to know the whole truth. (1Tim2:4) He does as he chooses in heaven and on earth and deep in the sea. (Psalm 135:6) God wants everyone to be saved, and God always gets what he wants.
• If any of you has a hundred sheep, and one of them gets lost, what will you do? Won't you leave the ninety-nine in the field and go look for the lost sheep until you find it? And when you find it, you will be so glad that you will put it on your shoulder and carry it home. Then you will call in your friends and neighbors and say, "Let's celebrate! I've found my lost sheep." Jesus said, "In the same way there is more happiness in heaven because of one sinner who turns to God than over ninety-nine good people who don't need to." (Luke 15:4-7) Who are Jesus's sheep? Is Jesus going to rest while any of his sheep aren't in his fold? Would Jesus be satisfied with having 99% of people in heaven?
• God did not send his Son into the world to condemn its people. He sent him to save them! (John 3:17) Jesus's mission was to save the people of the world. Did he succeed in his mission? Ask your preacher!
• And God was pleased for him to make peace by sacrificing his blood on the cross, so that all beings in heaven and on earth would be brought back to God. (Colossians 1:20) Are you a being? Are you in heaven or on earth? Congratulations, you're going to heaven to be with God!

If you read the new testament, keep an eye open for where it says "everyone", "all people", "all things", etc. Then ask yourself, if the bible says so many times that God loves everybody and will save everybody, why are so many people saying that the bible says the opposite? What benefit do those churches and preachers get by not telling people what the bible says?

The Lord isn't slow about keeping his promises, as some people think he is. In fact, God is patient, because he wants everyone to turn from sin and no one to be lost. 2 Peter 3:9

Further reading

Christianity is a pretty good bet. But you have to read the bible to find that out, they won't tell you in church. In church they'll tell you "God helps those who help themselves." In the bible, it says God helps people when they are helpless. In church they'll tell you that God is going to burn various people in hell forever. In the bible, it says that God will reconcile all things to himself. How is he going to reconcile all things to himself, if some of those things are burning in hell forever? Here are some verses from the bible supporting the concept that God loves everybody and wants everybody in heaven. And according to the bible, God always gets what he wants.

• Christ died for us at a time when we were helpless and sinful. But God showed how much he loved us by having Christ die for us, even though we were sinful. (Rom 5:6,8) Christ died for sinners. He owns them, all of them, because he bought them with his blood. If he owns those sinners, if he loves them, if he bought them, why would he burn them in hell forever?
• God wants everyone to be saved and to know the whole truth. (1Tim2:4) He does as he chooses in heaven and on earth and deep in the sea. (Psalm 135:6) God wants everyone to be saved, and God always gets what he wants.
• If any of you has a hundred sheep, and one of them gets lost, what will you do? Won't you leave the ninety-nine in the field and go look for the lost sheep until you find it? And when you find it, you will be so glad that you will put it on your shoulder and carry it home. Then you will call in your friends and neighbors and say, "Let's celebrate! I've found my lost sheep." Jesus said, "In the same way there is more happiness in heaven because of one sinner who turns to God than over ninety-nine good people who don't need to." (Luke 15:4-7) Who are Jesus's sheep? Is Jesus going to rest while any of his sheep aren't in his fold? Would Jesus be satisfied with having 99% of people in heaven?
• God did not send his Son into the world to condemn its people. He sent him to save them! (John 3:17) Jesus's mission was to save the people of the world. Did he succeed in his mission? Ask your preacher!
• And God was pleased for him to make peace by sacrificing his blood on the cross, so that all beings in heaven and on earth would be brought back to God. (Colossians 1:20) Are you a being? Are you in heaven or on earth? Congratulations, you're going to heaven to be with God!

If you read the new testament, keep an eye open for where it says "everyone", "all people", "all things", etc. Then ask yourself, if the bible says so many times that God loves everybody and will save everybody, why are so many people saying that the bible says the opposite? What benefit do those churches and preachers get by not telling people what the bible says?

The Lord isn't slow about keeping his promises, as some people think he is. In fact, God is patient, because he wants everyone to turn from sin and no one to be lost. 2 Peter 3:9

Further reading

Christianity is a pretty good bet. But you have to read the bible to find that out, they won't tell you in church. In church they'll tell you "God helps those who help themselves." In the bible, it says God helps people when they are helpless. In church they'll tell you that God is going to burn various people in hell forever. In the bible, it says that God will reconcile all things to himself. How is he going to reconcile all things to himself, if some of those things are burning in hell forever? Here are some verses from the bible supporting the concept that God loves everybody and wants everybody in heaven. And according to the bible, God always gets what he wants.

• Christ died for us at a time when we were helpless and sinful. But God showed how much he loved us by having Christ die for us, even though we were sinful. (Rom 5:6,8) Christ died for sinners. He owns them, all of them, because he bought them with his blood. If he owns those sinners, if he loves them, if he bought them, why would he burn them in hell forever?
• God wants everyone to be saved and to know the whole truth. (1Tim2:4) He does as he chooses in heaven and on earth and deep in the sea. (Psalm 135:6) God wants everyone to be saved, and God always gets what he wants.
• If any of you has a hundred sheep, and one of them gets lost, what will you do? Won't you leave the ninety-nine in the field and go look for the lost sheep until you find it? And when you find it, you will be so glad that you will put it on your shoulder and carry it home. Then you will call in your friends and neighbors and say, "Let's celebrate! I've found my lost sheep." Jesus said, "In the same way there is more happiness in heaven because of one sinner who turns to God than over ninety-nine good people who don't need to." (Luke 15:4-7) Who are Jesus's sheep? Is Jesus going to rest while any of his sheep aren't in his fold? Would Jesus be satisfied with having 99% of people in heaven?
• God did not send his Son into the world to condemn its people. He sent him to save them! (John 3:17) Jesus's mission was to save the people of the world. Did he succeed in his mission? Ask your preacher!
• And God was pleased for him to make peace by sacrificing his blood on the cross, so that all beings in heaven and on earth would be brought back to God. (Colossians 1:20) Are you a being? Are you in heaven or on earth? Congratulations, you're going to heaven to be with God!

If you read the new testament, keep an eye open for where it says "everyone", "all people", "all things", etc. Then ask yourself, if the bible says so many times that God loves everybody and will save everybody, why are so many people saying that the bible says the opposite? What benefit do those churches and preachers get by not telling people what the bible says?

The Lord isn't slow about keeping his promises, as some people think he is. In fact, God is patient, because he wants everyone to turn from sin and no one to be lost. 2 Peter 3:9

Further reading

And offensively wrong at that.

*shrug*^2 You're easily offended.

let us not judge that we not be judged.

And Biblically illiterate. (Though perhaps you didn't realize it is a Biblical allusion?) Anti-Christians are particularly fond of quoting that phrase out of context, as if it prohibits Christians from discerning and advocating what is morally right, or participating in political debate.

Here's the full passage, from Matthew 7:

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

It's a condemnation of hypocrisy, not a prohibition against discerning morality or participating in politics. Pretty humorous, too, that image of an ophthalmologist with a 2x4 stuck in his eye trying to remove a spec of sawdust from someone else's eye. :-)

When you support abortion for any and every reason, it's pretty hard to buy your contention that you value prenatal life. But if you insist that you simply value it less that the mother's right to end it, I'll accept you at your word.

Finally, your analogy of the transcontinental railroad as an example of government-funded research similar to embryonic stem cell research was particularly apropos, given that it is often accused of fostering a form of genocide against the native population (are embryos the new "native population"?). More apt than you perhaps realized. ;-)

If any of this offended you as well, then my regrets as that is not my intent. We have very different views on the value of life, and we won't convince each other with well-worn arguments over the point at which a baby's right to live trumps a mother's right to kill it. But thanks for the debate; I always learn something.

> all the religious zealots will be gone

Nope, only the Christians, you'll still have all the Muslims and everyone who thinks they're Christian but aren't.
Also the Rapture will essentially prove that everything we've said all along is true and that final judgement is very imminent, and things are going to start getting VERY hairy. There's still hope though, although you get to lose your head, so it's far better to become a Christian before the rapture than after it.
If we're wrong then the Rapture won't happen at all (at least, not to the Christians).

Read all about it in Revelation, starting at Chapter 6. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=6&version=31
Either it's what you can expect, or it's what us poor sad deluded fools believe, so either way it's got to be worth a look.

Eschatology (study of the end times) is a difficult subject and there are several different opinions on the Rapture, the Millennium, whether or not the church has to go through the Tribulation and so on, so don't read any of this too literally. What you can take out of it though, and what all eschatology students agree on, is that it's not going to be a walk in the park.

Judgement itself is not sinful, Christ warns that if you judge someone, you'll get measure in the same manner. Its more of a very strong warning and less of a command.

For one who truly believes, they'll take it to heart. For someone who uses their belief for selfish motives, they'll abuse it.

Matthew 7:1-2

You must not have read the fine print. There's an exceptions clause that is pretty broad and covers, well, anyone who chooses to enact this clause. It's pretty simple too... just have to accept one guys way of life and tell others that you accept his way of life, and in exchange, he takes all the hell, and you get to have a nice big party with a whole lot of other people who chose this exclusion clause.

Sounds like a good deal more of these hundreds of millions of people, though they don't exactly "measure up" to the legalistic Option A of the contract, can keep the contract anyways (through the exclusions available in Option B) and will not be going to hell.

--

Before you comment on the Christian Bible, please read the Christian Bible, and in a couple of different translations to be certain that you actually understand what it says.

Anybody who owns a TV set, house, car, etc. will be turned away from the pearly gates ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2019:21;&version=31; )

Anybody who's eaten a hot dog? Sorry. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2011:7;&version=31; ).

Anybody who doesn't hate their family? Nope. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+14:26 )

I could go on... but that's pretty much the whole of the USA already.

Anybody who owns a TV set, house, car, etc. will be turned away from the pearly gates ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2019:21;&version=31; )

Anybody who's eaten a hot dog? Sorry. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2011:7;&version=31; ).

Anybody who doesn't hate their family? Nope. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+14:26 )

I could go on... but that's pretty much the whole of the USA already.

Anybody who owns a TV set, house, car, etc. will be turned away from the pearly gates ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2019:21;&version=31; )

Anybody who's eaten a hot dog? Sorry. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2011:7;&version=31; ).

Anybody who doesn't hate their family? Nope. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+14:26 )

I could go on... but that's pretty much the whole of the USA already.

As much as the crowd around here pretends like it's a farce, I turn to faith to provide my much needed avenue away from cynicism and pessimism. So how does it help me?

• Paul teaches that we should be all things to all people (1 Corinthians 9:19-23) so that tells me to do whatever job needs done which keeps me humble and sets an example for others.
• "Do not love the world or the things in the world" (1 John 2:15) teaches me to not make gadgets or technology the focus of my life, but rather a chance to use my talents - which means I can survive for days at a time without my cell phone or computer. It also allows me to have the patience for the iPhone 3G to flop while you all whine and complain about it.
• Matthew 22:39 teaches me to be kind to everyone, including my boss when he gets demanding or unreasonable. ("Treat others the way I want to be treated.")
• While I am also a security professional, and also see all the paranoia and distrust you talk about, I use my faith to encourage me to be a friend to all. It's a little like "...keep your enemies closer", but gentler than that. It's like being an adult back in high school, where you're still a kid, and can recognize when another kid is being abused, or isn't making smart decisions. My training tells me what the human condition can be, and I am now educated to help others guard against those conditions. But I'm respected enough (earned) that others take my advice against folly only because it is given out of love. I help them, and lift them up, like it is discussed in Ron Hutchcraft's Blog. I never use my talents to shame others (friendly pranks not included).

So for everyone who says that religion is a crutch, I treat my faith like a scaffold, lifting me up, and giving me the support necessary to paint my life in a way that will please my Father.

Oh, and yes, I still have to fight worry (job security), gossip, and being someone no one likes to hang out with outside of work. I'm not that different from you.

As much as the crowd around here pretends like it's a farce, I turn to faith to provide my much needed avenue away from cynicism and pessimism. So how does it help me?

• Paul teaches that we should be all things to all people (1 Corinthians 9:19-23) so that tells me to do whatever job needs done which keeps me humble and sets an example for others.
• "Do not love the world or the things in the world" (1 John 2:15) teaches me to not make gadgets or technology the focus of my life, but rather a chance to use my talents - which means I can survive for days at a time without my cell phone or computer. It also allows me to have the patience for the iPhone 3G to flop while you all whine and complain about it.
• Matthew 22:39 teaches me to be kind to everyone, including my boss when he gets demanding or unreasonable. ("Treat others the way I want to be treated.")
• While I am also a security professional, and also see all the paranoia and distrust you talk about, I use my faith to encourage me to be a friend to all. It's a little like "...keep your enemies closer", but gentler than that. It's like being an adult back in high school, where you're still a kid, and can recognize when another kid is being abused, or isn't making smart decisions. My training tells me what the human condition can be, and I am now educated to help others guard against those conditions. But I'm respected enough (earned) that others take my advice against folly only because it is given out of love. I help them, and lift them up, like it is discussed in Ron Hutchcraft's Blog. I never use my talents to shame others (friendly pranks not included).

So for everyone who says that religion is a crutch, I treat my faith like a scaffold, lifting me up, and giving me the support necessary to paint my life in a way that will please my Father.

Oh, and yes, I still have to fight worry (job security), gossip, and being someone no one likes to hang out with outside of work. I'm not that different from you.

As much as the crowd around here pretends like it's a farce, I turn to faith to provide my much needed avenue away from cynicism and pessimism. So how does it help me?

• Paul teaches that we should be all things to all people (1 Corinthians 9:19-23) so that tells me to do whatever job needs done which keeps me humble and sets an example for others.
• "Do not love the world or the things in the world" (1 John 2:15) teaches me to not make gadgets or technology the focus of my life, but rather a chance to use my talents - which means I can survive for days at a time without my cell phone or computer. It also allows me to have the patience for the iPhone 3G to flop while you all whine and complain about it.
• Matthew 22:39 teaches me to be kind to everyone, including my boss when he gets demanding or unreasonable. ("Treat others the way I want to be treated.")
• While I am also a security professional, and also see all the paranoia and distrust you talk about, I use my faith to encourage me to be a friend to all. It's a little like "...keep your enemies closer", but gentler than that. It's like being an adult back in high school, where you're still a kid, and can recognize when another kid is being abused, or isn't making smart decisions. My training tells me what the human condition can be, and I am now educated to help others guard against those conditions. But I'm respected enough (earned) that others take my advice against folly only because it is given out of love. I help them, and lift them up, like it is discussed in Ron Hutchcraft's Blog. I never use my talents to shame others (friendly pranks not included).

So for everyone who says that religion is a crutch, I treat my faith like a scaffold, lifting me up, and giving me the support necessary to paint my life in a way that will please my Father.

Oh, and yes, I still have to fight worry (job security), gossip, and being someone no one likes to hang out with outside of work. I'm not that different from you.

I'm conducting an experiment now. My hypothesis is that God makes it rain here at least once a month, so if it rains anytime in the next 30 days I'll have proved that God causes rain. Science, right? There are a lot of wacky experiments that people can perform themselves, and fool themselves into thinkig that they have significant results. Two of the things that make science science are the concepts of rigour and repeatability.

What would you be trying to prove with your experiment? That you can design bad experiments? Why not try a real experiment? Too chicken?

Try this: read a few chapters of the gospel of John. Then pray, and ask God to show you the truth, to show you if God is real. Spend about 5 or 10 minutes a day on it for a month. See what (if anything) happens.

Your explanation as to why to stick with 'hammering on the stuff within accepted science' is EXACTLY why 'The Gospel of Jesus Christ' is preached and not explained.

He does make a fairly strong claim in John 8:56-59
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%208:56-59;&version=31;

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
57 "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

In verse 59 the Jews knew what he was claiming, and that's why they tried to stone him.

Jesus did not say "before Abraham was born, I was". He said "I am".

For context see:

Exodus 3:13-14
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%203:13-14;&version=31;

13 Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"

14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [b] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

He does make a fairly strong claim in John 8:56-59
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%208:56-59;&version=31;

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
57 "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

In verse 59 the Jews knew what he was claiming, and that's why they tried to stone him.

Jesus did not say "before Abraham was born, I was". He said "I am".

For context see:

Exodus 3:13-14
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%203:13-14;&version=31;

13 Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"

14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [b] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

What Would Jesus Think Was Unreasonable?

Purely a guess: getting nailed to a log just for suggesting that people should try to be a little bit nicer to each other.

Oh yeah, and claiming to be the bastard child of a peasant woman and the supreme deity of a large chunk of the population.

Jesus never claimed to be God, but he let others do it and let them know he agreed.

"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Peter answered, "You are the Christ.[b]" ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=8&version=31 )

So we should be welcoming, give them a drink of the kool-aid and treat them like one of the gang. Its going to be hard and we'll have to keep an eye out for deception, but I think we should start playing nicer with them and hope that they do the same.

"If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head, and the LORD will reward you." - Proverbs 25:21-22 (NIV)

I've always liked that passage. :-)

OK. Stoning is required, citation from the New Testament please.

Typical idiotic nonsense from somebody who hasn't actually bothered to read the book.

I don't have to supply a citation from the new testament. You seem to know, by your deceptive attempt to redraw the map, that there are plenty of examples in the old testament, correct?

You see the thing about the _New_ Testament is that it's new. When Jesus says he has come to fulfill "the law" (by which he means the whole canon of the Old Testament) he doesn't mean that we should still enact the Levitican and Deuteronomical laws as written instead he is saying that the law now is completed. How can I tell, well by his words and actions. If Jesus was fulfilling the law in the sense that you claim he would have encouraged the crowd to stone the woman caught in adultery. He was not and did not. Indeed much of the pharisaical objection came becuase Jesus appeared not to obey the letter of the law, that was why he made this response.

Indeed if you continue to read the passage in Matthew (I don't know what makes you think I haven't read it?) you'll see that Jesus expands on what he means: instead of just not murdering we [His followers] should harbour no murderous feelings, and if we do we should ensure we are reconciled to our brother. We should do everything we can to avoid looking lustfully at another's wife (it's figurative, before you ask). We should give to the needy. We should not judge without inspecting ourselves first. We shouldn't take an eye-for-an-eye but instead turn the other cheek. We shouldn't just love [agape] our friends but our enemies also.

Another indicator is that Christ abolished the priesthood as intermediaries between us and God (the tearing of the curtain that sets aside the holy-of-holies was a sign of this). Many of the old ceremonial laws concern the priesthood - tithing, consulting a priest, etc.. So they couldn't be enacted if it weren't for them having been fulfilled.

It's a good point that you make. Jesus Christ makes it clear that under the law all are condemned. What hope is there then? Well those who follow him ("I am the way") and accept his sacrifice are made holy, why? Because Christ is righteousness. It is through Christ we are made righteous so as to enter God's presence.

Hebrews 7 (from the message; http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews%207;&version=65;)

11-14 If the priesthood of Levi and Aaron, which provided the framework for the giving of the law, could really make people perfect, there wouldn't have been need for a new priesthood like that of Melchizedek. But since it didn't get the job done, there was a change of priesthood, which brought with it a radical new kind of law. There is no way of understanding this in terms of the old Levitical priesthood, which is why there is nothing in Jesus' family tree connecting him with that priestly line.

  15-19 But the Melchizedek story provides a perfect analogy: Jesus, a priest like Melchizedek, not by genealogical descent but by the sheer force of resurrection lifeâ"he lives!â""priest forever in the royal order of Melchizedek." The former way of doing things, a system of commandments that never worked out the way it was supposed to, was set aside; the law brought nothing to maturity. Another wayâ"Jesus!â"a way that does work, that brings us right into the presence of God, is put in its place.

Lastly, "faith is an unmitigated evil". Sheesh. It must be hard for you if no one trusts you, no?