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Source 1, Source 2

Of course I grew up around there so I'm quite familiar with it.

After 9/11, there was a huge outcry of public support for the U.S., in Iran, even in Palestine, where they held candlelight vigils. Unfortunately, the media never bothered to cover it. Why should they? So long as someone out there can be painted as an evil enemy, it sells!

Anyway, this link was posted by an A/C in this thread, and it is a compilation of what seems to be some of the outpouring of grief and the separation from such acts from many Muslim nations.

http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

A search on google yields this as well:

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

I've seen Moryath post this crap before every chance that he gets, and while he's entitled to his own opinion, he needs to realize that he's not an expert of Islam because he can cherry-pick out verses without putting them into context and without realizing WHEN it was written.

I'm an Atheist and while I don't like any religion, I have enough sense to know that the actions of a minority should not reflect poorly on the whole. Catholicism was especially brutal, and even today, some of its points seem backwards to me, but I would never paint every Catholic as being backwards.

Religion is and should be a private thing, unless we're talking about the worship of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. :)

You may have done PLENTY of studying of Islam, but you know nothing of it except what you want to see, a religion which dictates war and hate. See, you have a serious problem, you're reading the Koran, and you're taking it literally, unlike the majority of Muslims, who just want to live a simple life of peace. This still makes you an uneducated moron. Go LIVE in a Muslim country, then come back to us and let us know what you experience. And when I say go live in a Muslim country, I mean really live there. Not visit some tourist town.

I wish it weren't so. I wish your relatives the best, I really do. But there's a long road ahead and they are, sadly, VERY much in the minority concerning their interpretation of the Muslim faith.

And who the FUCK do you think you are telling people that they are a minority in their views? Excuse me, but the majority of Muslims are moderate and don't actually follow the book word for word. They are in the majority. They've gotten over the fundamentalist bullshit. You haven't. You really need to get a life. Yes, there are suicide bombings. Those are from minority fundamentalist factions. Guess what Einstein, if you play the news of a minority faction over and over again, people will believe that they are part of the majority.

In all seriousness, though... "worrying" that your religion is "hijacked", and actually standing up en masse and saying so, are two different things. And by and large, Muslims seem just fine letting people "hijack" their religion all day long.

So if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to listen, does it make a sound? Just because you're ONLY hearing about the bad, doesn't mean that nobody is actually speaking up. Take 9/11 for example. While asshats like yourself were busy whining about there not being a response, there actually was.

So why don't we ever hear about these things? Because sex, violence, and hate sells. Why should they focus their reports on people who preach peace when they can focus on those that preach violence? Get this in your fucking skull. If you were to read slashdot, and NOTHING but slashdot, you would believe that all computer users were smart and only used Linux, hated the RIAA, and knew everything there was to know about technology.

If you ONLY hear about suicide bombers, you'll believe that they are the only ones that exist.

I've visited Muslim countries on three different occasions, living with the locals, and I've felt nothing but warmth and kindness. There were no death threats, no "death to america" chants, and certainly no mistreatment of women in everyday life. It existed, and I talked to the locals about the problems and they all agreed that things are slowly changing for the better.

Islamic countries have a long way to go, and rather than focusing on specific verses that preached violence, why don't you focus on the big picture? Why don't you put as much time and energy looking for some signs of progress?

No, that's not enough, but over time things will change for the better, and blithering idiots like yourself will still be around spewing out propaganda bullshit that would make Karl Rove blush.

If the majority was silent or ambivalent, you would have had a point. Fortunately, Muslims HAVE done condemned terrorism.
Muslims Condemn Terrorist Acts
CAIR Condemns suicide bombing
Scholars of Islam condemn 9/11
American Muslims conduct anti-terror campaigns (600,000 petition signatures)

I can find a few:

http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?articl e=32

http://www.freemuslims.org/

http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm

http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm#St atements%20from%20Leading%20American%20Muslim%20Or ganizations:

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/arti cles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_terrorism_par t_ii_statements_by_organizatio/0012210

These are all sites easily found with a google search on muslims against 9/11. Did you even bother to find any evidence of your statement that none had spoken out against it? Some of these people are Muslim scolars, people raised in the middle east. Yet they apose the terrorist attacks?
You are just ignoring whats in front of you because you don't want to hear it. Remember that these terrorists are called extreamists. Alot of the rest of the Muslim and Islamic population in the middle east is afraid of them or don't understand enough to protest. Even so you can still find hundreds of instances on the internet not to mention Muslims that I have spoken to personally.

"The Free Muslims Coalition is a nonprofit organization made up of American Muslims and Arabs of all backgrounds who feel that religious violence and terrorism have not been fully rejected by the Muslim community in the post 9-11 era."

Look at this survey of Muslims, they determined that the "radical" ones were less religious than the moderate ones, indicating that the radicalism isn't an indication of piety, and it kills the idea that reformers are irreligious and the militants are the truly pious.

""Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (idolaters, polytheists)...". (Quran 9:5)"

This verse is addressed to the Muslims of Medina under attack by the polytheist Meccans, and is referring to fighting them back. You're trying to take a 1400 year old battle and apply it to today in an incorrect manner. The Quran also forbids murder and says "if they make peace, you make peace." It also commands being fair to your neighbor, and that the closest in faith are Christians (5:82). The Quran also states that God commands peace as the default.

Next, lying is usually a tremendous sin in Islam. The only time you are permitted to lie is on the Battlefield as a trick or feint, or when someone asks you about your religion and you could be killed for saying you're a Muslim. Your source is incorrect (and amazingly biased), and is twisting the Prophet's (pbuh) quote, whose actual meaning was that lying is permissible in certain circumstances to preserve friendships or relationships (like telling your wife she doesn't look fat when she is)

Muslims are NOT silent when terrorism happens. Worldwide Muslim leaders condemn terrorism. Loudly. All the time. For example, my community mosque puts out condemnation emails every time something minor happens. Muslims condemn terrorism all the time, we're not to blame if CNN ignores these speeches that are given and reported in Muslim news sources.

I'm kinda tired of people accusing Muslims of being silent, when we're not. Let me give you a better example, the world thinks Americans are silent about Abu Ghraib. Where were the Americans protesting in the streets? The general feeling was disgust at the acts, but it wasn't reported and the world thinks Americans are as bad as Muslims.

Ahh, but so far all the terrorists have been Muslim.

But so far I really haven't seen any wide Muslim condemnation of the acts of the terrorists. Until that happens, then sorry if I make connections based on HISTORY.

Unless, of course, those people dancing in the streets on 9/11 were, you know, doing it out of love.

Actually there was one Muslim country that had a candle light vigil for the US after the bombings of 9/11.

http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

Funny that our so called allies (Saudi's, Kuwaiti's, etc) didn't give a rats ass what happened to us.

Aside from every major Islamic organization condemning terrorism and violence, what more do you want? Sheikh Hamza Yusuf said, "Terrorists are mass murderers, not martyrs" but I guess he wasn't deemed newsworthy. Sheikh Qaradawi, a popular TV preacher, has always been against Al-Qaeda and even said it was legitimate for Muslims to join the US in attacking the Taliban.

If you search online, you'll find photos of Muslims in anti-terror rallies. Here's two Palestinian women at a 9/11 memorial, and another of some of the Palestinian students who all observed 5 minutes of silence to remember 9/11 victims. Bangladesh anti-terrorism rally and sympathy for 9/11 victims. Palestinians held a rally against suicide bombing, but I can't find coverage in english press.

What about the mass demonstrations in Indonesia against terrorism? Heck, they had a rally calling for the execution of the Bali bombers. Indonesian Muslims were so outraged at the terrorists that they tried to storm the prison to lynch the terrorists.

Go and visit any local mosque, and they will tell you how much they are opposed to terrorism of all forms. Heck, the mosque by my house keeps sending me emails condemning the latest violence, when I know it's obvious. Still, I can understand how jittery everyone is, since a few mosques have been burned down over the last few years, and someone smashed our window.

Aside from every major Islamic organization condemning terrorism and violence, what more do you want? Sheikh Hamza Yusuf said, "Terrorists are mass murderers, not martyrs" but I guess he wasn't deemed newsworthy. Sheikh Qaradawi, a popular TV preacher, has always been against Al-Qaeda and even said it was legitimate for Muslims to join the US in attacking the Taliban.

If you search online, you'll find photos of Muslims in anti-terror rallies. Here's two Palestinian women at a 9/11 memorial, and another of some of the Palestinian students who all observed 5 minutes of silence to remember 9/11 victims. Bangladesh anti-terrorism rally and sympathy for 9/11 victims. Palestinians held a rally against suicide bombing, but I can't find coverage in english press.

What about the mass demonstrations in Indonesia against terrorism? Heck, they had a rally calling for the execution of the Bali bombers. Indonesian Muslims were so outraged at the terrorists that they tried to storm the prison to lynch the terrorists.

Go and visit any local mosque, and they will tell you how much they are opposed to terrorism of all forms. Heck, the mosque by my house keeps sending me emails condemning the latest violence, when I know it's obvious. Still, I can understand how jittery everyone is, since a few mosques have been burned down over the last few years, and someone smashed our window.

Aside from every major Islamic organization condemning terrorism and violence, what more do you want? Sheikh Hamza Yusuf said, "Terrorists are mass murderers, not martyrs" but I guess he wasn't deemed newsworthy. Sheikh Qaradawi, a popular TV preacher, has always been against Al-Qaeda and even said it was legitimate for Muslims to join the US in attacking the Taliban.

If you search online, you'll find photos of Muslims in anti-terror rallies. Here's two Palestinian women at a 9/11 memorial, and another of some of the Palestinian students who all observed 5 minutes of silence to remember 9/11 victims. Bangladesh anti-terrorism rally and sympathy for 9/11 victims. Palestinians held a rally against suicide bombing, but I can't find coverage in english press.

What about the mass demonstrations in Indonesia against terrorism? Heck, they had a rally calling for the execution of the Bali bombers. Indonesian Muslims were so outraged at the terrorists that they tried to storm the prison to lynch the terrorists.

Go and visit any local mosque, and they will tell you how much they are opposed to terrorism of all forms. Heck, the mosque by my house keeps sending me emails condemning the latest violence, when I know it's obvious. Still, I can understand how jittery everyone is, since a few mosques have been burned down over the last few years, and someone smashed our window.

Council of American-Islamic Relations condemns 9/11 in national full-page newspaper ad the next day.

Ayatollah Muhammad Husain Fadlallah of Lebanon condemns Osama Bin Laden.

Grand Imam of Al-Azhar seminary, Shaikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, condemns Osamah Bin Laden (Plus official text)

Prominent Pakistani Cleric Tahir ul Qadri condemns Bin Laden.

Television preacher Yusuf Al-Qaradawi condemns Al Qaeda

Spanish Muslim Clerical authorities Issue Fatwa against Osamah Bin Laden. There are on the order of 250,000 Muslims in Spain.

High Mufti of Russian Muslims calls for Extradition of Bin Laden. Russian Muslims are 15% of the population there, so this is not a pro forma thing.

List of Muslim condemnations of Terrorist attacks. Also Scholars of Islam and the tragedy of 9/11 attacks

Expressions of grief and sympathy in the Arab world after 9/11. (Includes candlelight vigils in Tehran, anti-terrorism protests in Bangladesh)

Iraqi blogger Riverbend recalls the sympathy she felt on 9/11

You didn't hear any protests because it simply wasn't covered in American news. International news did pick up on these events. How about the people in Arab countries who donated blood after 9/11 because Qaradawi suggested it? What about the flower bouquets people sent in sympathy to the American embassy in Kuwait, so many that they ringed the fence?

Council of American-Islamic Relations condemns 9/11 in national full-page newspaper ad the next day.

Ayatollah Muhammad Husain Fadlallah of Lebanon condemns Osama Bin Laden.

Grand Imam of Al-Azhar seminary, Shaikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, condemns Osamah Bin Laden (Plus official text)

Prominent Pakistani Cleric Tahir ul Qadri condemns Bin Laden.

Television preacher Yusuf Al-Qaradawi condemns Al Qaeda

Spanish Muslim Clerical authorities Issue Fatwa against Osamah Bin Laden. There are on the order of 250,000 Muslims in Spain.

High Mufti of Russian Muslims calls for Extradition of Bin Laden. Russian Muslims are 15% of the population there, so this is not a pro forma thing.

List of Muslim condemnations of Terrorist attacks. Also Scholars of Islam and the tragedy of 9/11 attacks

Expressions of grief and sympathy in the Arab world after 9/11. (Includes candlelight vigils in Tehran, anti-terrorism protests in Bangladesh)

Iraqi blogger Riverbend recalls the sympathy she felt on 9/11

You didn't hear any protests because it simply wasn't covered in American news. International news did pick up on these events. How about the people in Arab countries who donated blood after 9/11 because Qaradawi suggested it? What about the flower bouquets people sent in sympathy to the American embassy in Kuwait, so many that they ringed the fence?

The rest of the Arab world not only condemned the attacks, they held prayer vigils and sent condolences. Kuwait sent so many flowers to the US embassy that it ringed the entire compound. Iranian students burst into spontaneous (unplanned) peace demonstrations in support of the US. Egypt's Al-Azhar University, the highest Sunni authority by many, categorically condemned the attack, and reiterated their previous fatwa that suicide bombing was a major sin. The Organization of the Islamic Conference in Qatar that year condemned the attack. Sheikh Qaradawi, a notable figure appearing on Al Jazeera, condemned the attack as well.

You don't believe me? Go see some photos all over the Muslim world of solidarity with America on 9/11 and condemnations of the attack from the Arab and Muslim leaders and scholars.

Islam doesn't NEED instructions on how to act civilized.

Colombia is 95% Catholic, yet they have a massive, massive drug problem. And they have terrorism too. Should I blame Christianity? How come Cocaine comes from the Catholic countries anyway? You won't see Iran manufacturing it anytime soon.

The believers of Islam don't rape 72 virgins in heaven either. The virgins are only a minor perk of Paradise anyway.

Fatwas aren't issued to anyone who questions Islam, but the Ayatollah of Iran said Salman Rushdie should be killed for purposely insulting the religion. That was his view, and other countries didn't second him.

Female genital mutilation is not an Islamic thing. It's an African thing. African Pagans still do it, and so do some African and Egyptian Christians.

You remember people dancing in the street? Iran and many other Muslim countries held candlelight vigils for the 9/11 victims. There was TONS of condemnations of terrorism from all over the globe and Islamic groups issue condemnations very often.

Here are some links:
Muslim leaders condemn terrorist attacks
Muslims worldwide demonstrate against terror

I'll leave off the long list of condemnations of 9/11, from ordinary muslims, scholars, leaders, etc. I can also point you to fatwas condemning the mutilation of contractors in Fallujah, the bombings in Indonesia, etc. However, since I've seen lots of strawmen claims that Islam supports killing POW's (the whole Nick Berg issue), I should point out that the scholars have been unanimous and clear; it's forbidden.

Fatwa concerning POWs
Muslim authorities at Al-Azhar seminary condemn killing Radical Shi'ite Hizbullah condemns beheading
Iraqi Muslim leaders condemn beheading

I found it difficult to get data about the 60s, which I consider the hay-day of the Soviet Union. Even so, according to the CIA, the illiteracy rate in the US is considerably higher than in Russia.. Of course, the numbers are from different years, and a lot of other things are to be considered here (immigration, for example), but for all I know it is generally agreed, that the Soviet Union had a literacy rate of close to 100%.

As far as health care goes, this was a constitutional right in the Soviet Union, so things are quite different than in the US. Thus, there was no such thing as being to poor for health services.

Now, having this said, my point was not that everything was great in the Soviet Union back then. Lack of freedom and democracy come to mind, and of course the crimes of the Stalin era alone can fill volumes.

What I was trying to say was that the reasoning of the original poster, (Many Chinese are poor, so their country shouldn't engage in space flight), could just as well have been made against the US during NASAs finest days. That's all.

The only firm circumstantial evidence we have to go on is Marcus Marci's letter to Anasthasius Kirchir, which mentions that the manuscript was sold to King Rudolph for 600 ducats.

I got Lyra's Oxford by Philip Pullman for Christmas, and while it's short (too short?) it contains lots of small but possibly significant little references and mysteries, relating to an Oxford in a parallel universe and to our own. There's a list of books for sale on the back of an included map, and included is 'Polymathestatos: A Festschrift in honour of Joscelyn Godwin' - edited by a certain Athanasius Kircher. I read your post, and the name sounded familiar, so I checked...

Pullman's book has an alchemical theme, and now I'm off to see what else in the book exists in our universe and not just Lyra's.

Hang on - I've found Joscelyn Godwin, and it appears that in our universe, he wrote a book about Anasthasius Kircher - in 1979. Heh. :-)

Totally different culture there. Germans today deeply regret Nazism, and Japan wised up. Your "Feudalism" theory doesn't make sense, please elaborate because I don't understand what you mean.

Israel? Do you really want to open up a can of worms here? Fine, but I warn you, this will be lengthy.

But a bunch of farmers with a hodge-podge of weapons were too much for the surrounding muslim pussies to even imagine tolerating. So they attack the recently declared state. And predictably loose. Now Israel is this great evil because they've defended themselves and bought land from people who sold it to them.

You're reading this from the Zionist view? Did you know that the Jewish settlers carried out terrorism against the Palestinian people who were already there? David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel, actually had a wanted poster with his name on it, for terrorism and attacks against the Arabs, in his effort to push for a "Jewish state." Israel didn't buy Palestinian land, instead it was stolen when people fled their homes during the war, and weren't allowed to return. There are eyewitness accounts of Israeli soldiers driving them out, killing a few even. I'm not going to get into blame, my point is that the Palestinians were driven out, not voluntarily as your post alleged. Israel demolished some homes, moved Jewish immigrants into others. The Palestinians are understandably upset, they don't get their homes back and don't get an apology or compensation either. This isn't like ancestors losing land, but people who are still living. This could evolve into a giant rant, but I'll cap it off here.

The arabs lost and blame the US for their own weaknesses

Really? Who has ever publicly blamed the US for Egypt losing the six-day war? Who has blamed the US for Israel's refusing to make peace? I recall Clinton leading a peace accord with Netanyahu and Arafat, both shaking hands. I've only heard criticism for the US' current support of Israel, not for "Arab weakness".

The only reason Israel has US support is because the muslims murder civilians specifically.

I think you are blind. You didn't know about AIPAC giving MILLIONS in campaign contributions? That every candidate for decades has sided with Israel to court the Jewish and evangelical votes? If that as you said is the sole reason, then why does nearly the entire UN condemn some Israeli military actions? Why does the UN complain that Israel is in violation of refugee laws? The UN has condemned terrorism on both sides.

Fuck the Muslims. Give them a taste of their own morality. It's ok to kill me because you don't like me, fuck you, eat hot thermonuclear death. Reciprocity is a bitch. Clearly if civilian populations are fair game, the civilian Muslims populations are NO exception.

Sheesh, you really have to strawman the issue here, don't you? First off, Islam does NOT condone murder, ok? Second, don't say Muslims when you only mean Arabs/Palestinians, of which I am neither. It's completely forbidden to murder anyone or attack civillians. The terrorist attacks have received worldwide condemnation from scholars, Imams, Mullahs, Maulanas, Muftis, Sheikhs, you name it. Terrorism is completely against Islam, are we clear on that? I am a Muslim, and I will help you hunt down any scum that kills children. It's not as easy as you think, Terrorists, Baathists, and the Taliban don't exactly walk around in broad daylight, despite what you think.

I'll never forget the CNN foot

I really liked Galvatron Solves the Matrix. He raised some interesting points, and may still be right.

The original thread is from here.

-Ted

Sorry for the very long delay in replying... I've been traveling and very busy. Rather than dashing off a reply in five minutes I thought it better to wait until I could answer thoroughly.

OK, we have now wandered far, far afield, but...

That's a slashdot tradition ;-)

Awesome post, by the way. You made me think, which is always a good thing.

Having lived abroad for almost ten years now, and marrying a woman whose native language is not English, I've lost that subtle racism that most liberals, and I am one, have -- the idea that people born in the third world somehow have an excuse not to behave in a civilized fashion.

Just so we're clear on where we both stand, I'm a conservative, with strong libertarian leanings, driven primarily by the years I spent living outside of the U.S. (in Mexico).

Possums formed a staple of their diet. Somehow, I don't recall them chanting in the streets for anyone's blood.

Agreed, poverty is no justification for violence. That's an old liberal argument that holds no water whatsoever with me.

After 1776, France didn't stick around and send aid and workers to help us "nation build." With their purposes accomplished, they got out.

France really had nothing to offer us, and nothing to gain by helping us further. I think we have plenty to offer Afghanistan (more on that below) and I think we stand to benefit by helping.

Afghanistan could have done the same thing. We built the mujahadeen purely so the Soviets would have a thorn in their side, and then we left. Fine. There's not a reason in the world that the Afghani people couldn't have had a meeting and worked it out ... [instead ] they submitted to the rule of the Taliban, despite the fact that they had just ejected a far greater power, the Soviets.

Right. I'll go ahead and snip the rest of your examples about the Islamic countries' inability to establish stable and properous lives for themselves.

I think there is a fundamental reason for their repeated and widespread failures, and that it *is* religious in origin: Islamic doctrine does not approve of separation of church and state. Personally, I think one of the most profound things Christ ever said was "Render unto Caesar that which is of Caesar and unto God that which is of God." That, plus his repeated affirmations that his "Kingdom is not of this world" provide the Christian scriptural basis of secular government.

Clearly, religious government is fine if the leaders are righteous, benevolent and tolerant, but it becomes very bad when they're not, because a religious government cannot be questioned or criticized -- one does not question God. This, incidentally, is exactly where Europe was five hundred years ago -- God "chose" the King and the King was not to be questioned.

By the way, as I understand it, this issue touches directly on the difference between Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims. Sunnis are generally considered by the west to be more peaceful and progressive, and Shi'ites are more hardline. The real, doctrinal, difference between the sects is their interpretation of the reliability of their leaders -- Shi'ites believe that their Imams are perfect and infallible, whereas Sunnis believe that they are men who may make small errors. Neither believe that their leaders can make large errors, however.

the 3,000 dead in New York deserved to die... Complete and utter bull.

Clearly. There is no justification for intentionally killing innocents.

But the Arabic world in general is hardly a charity case. They've been flooded with oil money for almost five decades now.

Parts of it, anyway. Afghanistan doesn't have any oil. But Turkey doesn't have much either, and they're building a reasonably decent country (and are rabid church/state separatists -- Turkish military officers are *required* to drink alcohol, for example).

I'm sorry. Muslim behavior has pushed me over the edge on this one. The dancing in the streets after 9/11. The joy that I saw among the Muslims here at the sight of people jumping from windows. The utter and complete lack of jeko> condemnation from the Muslim community until only recently.

Here I believe you're just factually wrong. The Muslim community *has* condemned the attacks; they did so immediately and strongly, and not just American Muslims. Even the radical, anti-American organizations did it (you can argue that they did so out of self-preservation, not sincerity, but the fact that they did publically condemn the attacks remains).

A quick google search found this, this, and particularly this, among many others.

One interesting quote:

The US Consul General in Jerusalem reported that he has received a huge stack of faxes from Palestinians and Palestinian organizations expressing condolences, grief and solidarity. He himself was pained to see that the media chose to focus on the sensational images of a few Palestinians rejoicing.

The fact that the Daniel Pearl murder video is reported to be a best-seller in the Arabic world.

I'd be rather cautious about "facts" like this. What constitutes a best seller? Who counts the sales? Who reported it? What other factors might there be? The "Faces of Death" series of videos are rather popular in the U.S. as well.

The Palestinian infant dressed up as a suicide bomber. (I don't care if the black-oil aliens from the X-Files have taken over. There is no excuse for the babarism of teaching children to blow themselves up.)

Absolutely. Those parents are sick and twisted. However, the American parents who forced their children to drink cyanide-laced Kool-Aid were also sick and twisted. Bad people exist everywhere, but that doesn't mean that the majority of any people are bad.

Imagine the response from the pulpits across Christendom if Jerry Falwell had blown up the great Buddhist Temple in Nara ... I have yet to hear the same response from Islam.

That's the fault of the western news media (and apparently the Japanese media as well), not the fault of Islam. There have been people in the U.S. complaining that the Islamic leaders of the world haven't apologized for 9/11, and I think that is very misguided. Why should they apologize for what they didn't do?

Stories I've read in various places have mentioned that many people in the middle east find the 9/11 attacks so horrifying that they simply cannot believe it was carried out by Muslims. Conspiracy theories blaming it on the Jews or saying that Bush knew about it and yet stood idle so that he could build anti-Islamic sentiment abound. The theories are ridiculous, but it's worthwhile to note that they exist primarily because the Muslims don't want to believe their brethren are capable of such a heinous act.

I'm not saying that any inaction on their part is justified by these misguided theories, I'm just pointing out that far from rejoicing in it, most Muslims want to divorce themselves from the act and blame someone they already hate for other reasons, because accepting it themselves is too painful.

Similarly, many German citizens during WWII refused to believe that all of the Jews being shipped off were being systematically slaughtered, in spite of logic and evidence.

Bin Laden appears to be a popular hero in the Middle East, a modern-day psychotic bloody version of Robin Hood. I've heard a few qualified, mealy-mouthed responses from the Muslim community here in America about how "violence is not the best solution." What I have not heard is the shocked thundering raging denouncement and the commensurate police activity coming from Islam if the situation were truly what you say it is.

I feel like a conservative nutcase for blaming this on the media, but I really think they're at fault. They, in fact, did not publicize the Islamic condemnations, or the candlelight vigils, or the letters and faxes of support and sympathy, preferring to show the dancing in the streets.

That's not to say that there aren't people who rejoice to see the U.S. taken down a notch. There are, and while it's understandable that they enjoy seeing the U.S. take a punch, their ability to overlook the thousands of *innocent* lives lost is very, very sad, and betrays the low value they place on human life.

I'm sorry, but the Muslim community has burned through their "benefit of the doubt." Until they start acting like civilized human beings, I'm not going to pretend that they are.

I agree. Although it's funny that much of what we consider civilization to be was created by Arabs, I think you're right many Islamic countries are not what we now consider civilized people. And that's a big problem.

As I said above, I think the core problem is that religious government locks a people into a feudalistic, tribalistic system that causes individual oppression and halts progress. It's not the people, because people are pretty much the same everywhere, it's their system. That's okay, they have the right to govern themselves as they choose, even if it's stupid.

What they don't have the right to do is to come here and kill us. To my way of thinking, if the government of a country supports terrorism, then that government loses its right to govern. If the people of that country are unable or unwilling to remove that immoral government from power, then we have every right to do so, and we have every right to make sure that a similarly immoral government doesn't rise up in its place to continue the destruction.

It does not give us the right to turn the region into a nuclear wasteland, nor does it give us the right to arbitrarily attack other Islamic countries who may not have had a hand in supporting the terrorists, nor does it give us the right to revile or abuse people who follow their own peace-loving faith.

If you want my solution to the 9/11 problem, here it is: We should establish a policy (it would probably go down in history as the "Bush Doctrine", if it were to happen) that states that any government that supports terrorism, or even any government that doesn't take reasonable actions to stop terrorism, loses its right to rule its people. If necessary, the U.S. will militarily remove the offending government, under UN auspices if possible. If the nation doesn't seem to be capable (in the estimation of the damaged party) of establishing a more civilized government, then the region should become a protectorate until a stable, secular and democratic government ruled by law can be established and thoroughly entrenched.

In this particular case, I think Afghanistan should become a U.S. protectorate, that we should impose a constitutional, democratic government modeled on our own, and that we should stay involved and enforce the rule of law for at least a decade. We should allow the people to retain their own culture, except where it conflicts with our view of civilized government. We could just leave, as you say, but that will not prevent a repeat which may endanger us yet again in the future. This process will be expensive and will require us to help rebuild the physical infrastructure but, IMO, we can afford it because it's the most effective way to prevent another 9/11.

In the case of Iraq, we need to make clear to Saddam Hussein that he has already proved to the world that his regime is uncivilized, by his attacks on his own people, the terror attacks on Israelis and the invasion of Kuwait. In spite of that fact, we are kindly offering him a chance to prove that he is not preparing to employ weapons of mass destruction. To that end, we will send in teams of skeptical inspectors to whom he must prove that he has no weapons of mass destruction. His failure to do so would invoke the consequences of the "Uncivilized Nation" policy, namely invasion and replacement of the government with one which *we* consider to be civilized, with establishment of a long-term protectorate if necessary.

In short, if a government shows itself to be evil, then we will replace it with one of our choosing. If people want self-rule, then they should make sure their government behaves. I think this policy would not only be moral and logical, it would also be a really serious threat. The biggest, deepest reason why the Islamic countries' leadership fears the U.S. isn't the overt actions that we might take, it's the creeping influence of our immoral ideas and ways of life. The threat here is that if they choose to support terrorism, our subtle, creeping influence will suddenly turn into complete, overt control of every aspect of their government and society.

The biggest problem I see with this sort of policy is that it will require the U.S. to come clean about its own terrorist past and commit to never again participate in terrorism, or be subject to accusations of hypocrisy, which would undermine the moral high ground the policy attempts to take. Americans understand that it was previous administrations that supported terrorism, and that it was in the context of the very unique situation of the cold war, but the rest of the world may not, so we should just apologize, point out that we have replaced that previous government and promise never to permit it again.

I look forward to your comments.

We've been using Gyropoints for some time now. This is nifty technology, but definitely not news worthy anymore. They're really more of an arm strain than anything else for desktop use, but they're great for presentations.