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First of all, trying to untie Koran from the Bible doesn't really work cause it contains the same damn stories and same damn people.
Only real difference being that Jesus is not the son of god but just another prophet.
So that "Islam by one hand" is a crock of shit regardless if that one hand is Allah's or Uthman's as you put it.

Second, saying shit like that "Islam is the work of one man. (Not counting nameless scribes, no one ever credits them.)" is basically proof that you don't know jack shit about Islam.
Or you would have known of hadith.
Which is basically an attempt to expand the Koran after the death of its writer - by compiling quotes attributed to him by various sources.
All of which are specifically and strictly credited because... well... some might choose not to believe some sources.

There are many flavors of Islam. Just like with Judaism or Christianity
Painting it with a generalization-brush of "one Islam by one hand", particularly in today's climate of CLEAR AND OBVIOUS EXAMPLES of Shia-Sunni divisions is beyond ignorant or retarded.

Third turd... Just like the Bible which was not written in modern languages it suffers from transcription and translation errors.
Which compound when most of the text is metaphoric in nature - as is the case with all religious texts.
Saying it is consistent requires more than just belief - it requires blind faith.

Fourth... The Bible is plentiful with DIRECT commands to murder anyone from witches and gays to infidels.
And both Koran and Bible, old testament and new give even more reasons for hate and murder of everyone.

Fifth... Islam is as "compatible with the civilized world" as any ancient religion, cooked up by schizophrenic hermits in a cave, desert or jungle somewhere, edited by lunatics, crooks and child molesters and left "unchanged" for thousands of years.
You know... like all those flavors of Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism...

Not that newer religions cooked up by loons and crooks are any better!
Mormonism, Scientology and Moonism are the same kind of shit.
Just with fewer genocides to their name.
So far.

This is indeed a bad day when a hate-filled post like this gets modded +5 Insightful.

Historically, the "good" ones are silent when Islamist terrorists act. How many mosques have you seen speak out against ISIS and Islamist terrorism?

Yeah, they speak out all the time, though you wouldn't know it by reading the mainstream media. Every major terrorist event is generally followed by loads of denunciations by prominent Muslim leaders. And then there's stuff like this, where 70,000 Muslim clerics have issued a fatwa against terrorist acts.

The Islamist terrorist activities are encouraged by their "holy" books. .... I encourage everyone to read the Koran.

I'd encourage people to read other sacred texts written over a 1000 years ago when violence was much more common and compare. For example, have a look at the stuff in the Bible. Just one of those verses from Leviticus motivates dozens of killings of homosexuals every year, for example. But you don't tend to hear as much about them, because they tend to be individual killings. The main difference between Christianity/Judaism and Islam in terms of "holy" books (as you put it) is that the former tend to ignore the tenets of their scriptures more these days... compared to say a few centuries ago when they happily went around killing people in God's name too. (Heck, even in the 20th century you had genocides partially motivated by Christian sectarianism.)

The Western world has been shielded from this truth for too long. We can share a planet. We cannot share a country with these folks.

And it's people with views like this that are playing directly into the hands of the terrorists -- and by terrorists, I mean actual terrorist leaders and those motivated by political/religious ideology, not this numbnuts in France who from recent reports appears to be far from motivated by ideology. The reports are still early, but if recent media stories and interviews with family members and neighbors are to be believed, this guy was just a whackjob with a previous arrest for road rage and whose personal life had self-destructed. He doesn't appear to have been religious at all, drinking, doing drugs, eating pork, never attending services, etc.

So what about the reports that he shouted "Allahu akbar!" during the killings? Well, if he did, he was probably playing into the "terrorist" fantasy world you're putting him into.

If you don't mind, I'm not going to dignify him by calling him a "terrorist" -- that's insulting to actual politically motivated folks who feel the need to act violently in the name of an ideology. I'll just call this guy "Numbnuts," which is the level of respect he deserves.

From recent reports, it appears that Numbnuts was a depressed loner. In the past, some idiotic coward afraid of dealing with his own life might have quietly offed himself with a gun to the head in his own house, or maybe jumped off a bridge or something. Or maybe he would have "gone postal" and killed some family or coworkers just to take some of the people he hated with him. (Note that term go postal, remember that? Dozens of incidents of postal workers shooting up people over a decade, and I don't remember anyone calling for them all to be deported... sure no incidents on this scale, but still.)

Anyhow, Numbnuts here doesn't sound like a terrorist. He was just a screwed-up lunatic with a death wish. And if he shouted some Muslim phrase at the end, it's probably because he read some BS on the internet and people like you af

Oh how badly, badly misinformed you are. You clearly do not understand the tenets and foundation of either religion clearly. Here is just a small sampling of what Christianity endorses if we are going to hold them to their sacred text.

You say things like "Every nation that has adopted Islam has always been at work with itself and other peoples" without batting an eye, never bothering to think of how utterly moronic that makes you sound.

Seriously, next time you decide to enter a debate, please do some homework first.

So you are saying that Christian culture is the worst:

• killing and raping the infidels
• woman are [not] equal to men (the link is about the Torah, but Paul's letters in the New Testament are just as misogynistic)
• killing homosexuals (Lev. 20:13)

The problem with many European racists is that they blindly assume that all muslims believe the Quran. Just like for Christians and the Bible, most muslims do not read the Quran, even if they keep a finely decorated hardcover copy in the house. In the case of the Quran it's actually even less likely they are going to read it, since the Quran makes a point of being in Arabic, while the Bible is usually translated. Even if many non-Arabic speaking muslim countries include Arabic in their school curriculum, often ostensibly to allow reading the Quran, no one can reach a level of skill sufficient to do so in school (think of how many US citizen can read the Bible in French or Spanish after high school).

Of course you will find plenty of evil in the Quran, just like in the Bible. Of course Mohammed did evil things, so did Jesus (being rude to his mother—note that it is a violation of the fourth commandment, punishable by death in the Bible—, proclaiming war in Matthew 10:34-35, vandalising property and inciting a mob against the merchants in the temple, etc.), and of course all these parts are ignored, repressed and buried among Christians. But if they are read those quotes and told it's the Quran, they promptly believe it, because Islam is evil, right? (NB: of course Islam is evil. I am pointing out Christianity, Judaism, and for that sake Buddhism are not better.)

We all despise Saudi Arabia and Iran for their barbarous executions of homosexuals, but can you remember what England did to Alan Turing? That's England, a country noted for centuries for being one of the most liberals on the continent, not Italy or Poland, just two generations ago. And it was a war hero they were punishing.

Point being: the Quran is not more representative of muslims than the Bible is of christians. Some believe that nonsense (extremist nutjobs), some say they believe but don't really care, some believe they believe even if they don't know what is in the books (looks like you), and some dismiss the whole humbug. "Culture", as you intend it, is a mostly personal issue, and there is no way to determine that Mr. X from Syria is less liberal than Mr. Y from Oslo. Variations between single persons dwarf the average difference between population by orders of magnitude.

So you are saying that Christian culture is the worst:

• killing and raping the infidels
• woman are [not] equal to men (the link is about the Torah, but Paul's letters in the New Testament are just as misogynistic)
• killing homosexuals (Lev. 20:13)

The problem with many European racists is that they blindly assume that all muslims believe the Quran. Just like for Christians and the Bible, most muslims do not read the Quran, even if they keep a finely decorated hardcover copy in the house. In the case of the Quran it's actually even less likely they are going to read it, since the Quran makes a point of being in Arabic, while the Bible is usually translated. Even if many non-Arabic speaking muslim countries include Arabic in their school curriculum, often ostensibly to allow reading the Quran, no one can reach a level of skill sufficient to do so in school (think of how many US citizen can read the Bible in French or Spanish after high school).

Of course you will find plenty of evil in the Quran, just like in the Bible. Of course Mohammed did evil things, so did Jesus (being rude to his mother—note that it is a violation of the fourth commandment, punishable by death in the Bible—, proclaiming war in Matthew 10:34-35, vandalising property and inciting a mob against the merchants in the temple, etc.), and of course all these parts are ignored, repressed and buried among Christians. But if they are read those quotes and told it's the Quran, they promptly believe it, because Islam is evil, right? (NB: of course Islam is evil. I am pointing out Christianity, Judaism, and for that sake Buddhism are not better.)

We all despise Saudi Arabia and Iran for their barbarous executions of homosexuals, but can you remember what England did to Alan Turing? That's England, a country noted for centuries for being one of the most liberals on the continent, not Italy or Poland, just two generations ago. And it was a war hero they were punishing.

Point being: the Quran is not more representative of muslims than the Bible is of christians. Some believe that nonsense (extremist nutjobs), some say they believe but don't really care, some believe they believe even if they don't know what is in the books (looks like you), and some dismiss the whole humbug. "Culture", as you intend it, is a mostly personal issue, and there is no way to determine that Mr. X from Syria is less liberal than Mr. Y from Oslo. Variations between single persons dwarf the average difference between population by orders of magnitude.

> Wow. What kind of fucked up bible are you reading that makes you think that Jesus would support abortion?

This fucked up bible

Head over to the Evil Bible. It has a ton of citations, all taken from the scripture that you can read through. http://www.evilbible.com/

Here's a list of inconsistencies in the Bible backing the claim that it disagrees with itself. Now, to be honest, I have a low standard for religious works like the Bible or Das Kapital. But for these works to be applicable to the morals and ethics of the modern world, you have to filter them heavily. At some point, that becomes more work than it's worth.

You need to Read your bible.

Oh you want to play that game?

http://www.evilbible.com/

"...suicide is forbidden in the bible. " HAHAHahahah. aren't you cute.

YOu are a non thinking fundlmentalist, and in case you disagree, there is a chek list!

Oh, the irony. First of all, it is spelled fundamentalist and "checklist". Fundamentalism in Christianity is about following reading the bible WITHOUT heavily interpreting things which are not presented as "parables". Liberal theology, on the other hand, is about liberally reinterpreting parts of the bible, ignoring large sections and taking things out of context. The great irony is that you just quoted some stupid top ten list that you found on the internet.

Top 10 ways to tell if you are a Fundamentalist Idiot. from - http://www.evilbible.com/Top_Ten_List.htm

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

You are a bit confused. There is no specific requirement to actively/vigorously deny the existence of other powers but only to worship the one true god and to believe that the god of the bible is above every other god. So essentially, you are to just consider them irrelevant and not worthy of worship. Try reading a bible for yourself some time.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

I think you are a bit confused. You are dehumanizing yourself because you cannot believe that you are not insignificant in the greater scheme of things and that god cares about you. You want to make yourself feel small and worthless for some reason.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

You laugh at the Triune god but have no problem with the concept of the id, ego and superego. You also seem to have no problem with the concept that a family is considered a unit and yet they are composed of more than one "person".

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

They were killed because the pharaoh has previously killed all of the first born Jewish babies except for Moses. Apparently, you are ok with the atrocities that were happening all of the time at that time right? It was a "war" against a people who had sinned against god.

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

You obviously have not read the bible yourself seriously. It was prophesied in the old testament to happen the way it happened. The entire bible talks about Jesus. The "lord" of the old testament is Jesus. Whenever the lord appeared as a man, that was the son of man, aka Jesus.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

I don't waste my time with that crap. You are the one obsessed with it. It is irrelevant either way but I don't just blindly trust what some guy says.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell

"...suicide is forbidden in the bible. "
HAHAHahahah. aren't you cute.

YOu are a non thinking fundlmentalist, and in case you disagree, there is a chek list!

Top 10 ways to tell if you are a Fundamentalist Idiot. from - http://www.evilbible.com/Top_Ten_List.htm

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

They should ask people to turn in their bibles, from http://www.evilbible.com/god's%20not%20pro-life.htm:

The murdering of children:

Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”

Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.

Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”

2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”

Judges 19:24-29 “Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light. And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place. And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.” To put it very bluntly this poor, young lady was murdered by her mate for being raped.

Exodus 12:29 God killed, intentionally, every first-born child of every family in Egypt, simply because he was upset at the Pharaoh. And god caused the Pharaoh’s actions in the first place. Since when is it appropriate to murder children for their ruler’s forced action?

Exodus 20:9-10 God commands death for cursing out ones parents Joshua 8 God commanded the deaths of 12,000 men, women, and children of Ai. They were all slain in the ambush that was planned by god.

2 Kings 2:23-24 The prophet Elisha, was being picked on by some young boys from the city because of his bald head. The prophet turned around and cursed them in the Lords name. Then, two female bears came out of the woods and killed forty-two of them. You would think that God could understand that sometimes the youthful make childish jokes. Calling someone “bald head” is far from being worthy of death.

Leviticus 26:30 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat

Doesn't matter. If Biblegod is so far "above us", then its morals should be a superior version of what civilized people know to be right/wrong. However, that is not the case. Rather, it is quite the opposite: a rational purpose would condemn god's atrocious behavior.

Good resources for people to read:

http://www.evilbible.com/
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

Have you read Leviticus, Deuteronomy, or Exodus? Those books are filled with various reasons for which you should kill people (see here), among others.

Of course, most modern Christians choose to ignore those parts of the bible, aside from the occasional abortion clinic bomber. The only real difference is that there are a significant number of Muslims who haven't figured out that they should ignore the parts of their holy text that say to kill people.

Oh... so God sends the sin to hell?

As to whether a christian should follow the laws of the old testament.. well, you just couldn't be more wrong. The roman form of christianity that you leaned doesn't follow them because the romans weren't jews. The bible however, even in its roman form, is very clear on the old laws. (as clear as the bible gets at least)
  http://www.evilbible.com/do_not_ignore_ot.htm

Lastly, I cannot think of a nice way of saying this but every form of christianity is a bastardized form. Certainly, some are more and some are less so but that changes little.

Dunno much about islam, but the bible sends kindof a mixed message on violence.

I'm fairly sure the bible never commands anybody to kill non-believers.

Let's do a simple search for that, shall we?

Google 'killing bible' and click a link. I'd say any link, but why not click the first?

Murder in the Bible

Read and weep...

Some more: http://www.evilbible.com/ :-)

Same thing. Maybe you should read it some day.

try this.

Till the 15th century, both Christianity and Islam tended to follow their violent teachings. The difference being the Western world had the Renaissance, and was able to initiate some sort of religious reform. Islam has had no such movement, the majority of Muslim rulers oppressed their non Muslim subjects or converted them on pain of death(in selective accordance with their holy book). Today, majority of Christians choose to ignore teachings such as these, and instead focus on the more humanitarian aspects of the New Testament.

The lunatic fringe in Islam - be it rabid clerics or terror groups - have the loudest voices, and continue to preach hatred towards non Muslims and plot attacks against them. The so called voice of moderate Islam remained silent when Theo van Gogh was murdered for making a film criticizing Islam's treatment of women, yet complained loudly about a bunch of cartoons in a Danish newspaper.

Today, if a cult were to spring up that tried to enforce strict adherence to the Old Testament, with all its colorful punishments, it would be shunned as barbaric, but at no point could you deny that they were following the teachings of the Bible. Just that they chose to follow the most warped and perverted teachings among them.

The same is true about those who kill in the name of Islam. They are NOT misguided, but merely obeying their faith selectively (how one can follow contradicting instructions in the Koran/Bible is beyond me). So called 'moderate' Islam cannot be allowed to exist under the tenets of Islam, it's an all or nothing club that you can check out of but never leave (under penalty of death for apostasy).

So, to all self professed liberal and moderate Muslims - you may disagree with the mad mullahs and terrorists who share the religion with you, but they're the ones more faithful to it than you, warped as it may sound. Your own tolerance and respect for other beliefs is part of a value system that you have made for yourself (perhaps by obeying the peaceful chapters of the Koran), it is not to Islam's overall credit. Islam has nothing in it that recognizes the right of any other religious belief to exist.

It is a religion. That's what is evil about it.

I don't see how believing that "a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree" is any saner than the Xenu story.

The dangerous part about Scientology is that they are still in the early stages of religion, and are not yet hypocrites and live by the letter of their religion. A fundie who lived by the Bible would rape, kill, and enslave: reproachable behaviours in any civilised society, yet they are the Word of God®.

It is a religion. That's what is evil about it.

I don't see how believing that "a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree" is any saner than the Xenu story.

The dangerous part about Scientology is that they are still in the early stages of religion, and are not yet hypocrites and live by the letter of their religion. A fundie who lived by the Bible would rape, kill, and enslave: reproachable behaviours in any civilised society, yet they are the Word of God®.

It is a religion. That's what is evil about it.

I don't see how believing that "a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree" is any saner than the Xenu story.

The dangerous part about Scientology is that they are still in the early stages of religion, and are not yet hypocrites and live by the letter of their religion. A fundie who lived by the Bible would rape, kill, and enslave: reproachable behaviours in any civilised society, yet they are the Word of God®.

Start with the old testament, and work your way to the new. It gets progressively less hateful, but still makes Mein Kampf look like a love-story in comparison.

Or, if you have the attention span of a typical Christian, check out evilbible.com. It's a biased source, but includes direct quotations, and is easier to peruse than trying to wade through all the Christian holy books.

You have apparently never read the bible. There are all sorts of atrocities either committed by god or by he/she/its commands to followers. Among them are encouraging mass rape, incest, infanticide, and genocide.

Try here for a start: http://www.evilbible.com/

~X~
 

EvilBible.com has many nice links. Your children are disobedient? KILL THEM! That's right, god tells you to right in the book. Many, many more examples of just how loving and caring that god really is.

Well, you asked for it. Look here: http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm Your ignorance is showing....

Check out EvilBible.com.

You'll find all those horrible things your Sunday preachers don't discuss. After all, when the stars of the stories are assholes attendance goes down.

a guide

Like the parts where it says you should kill your own disobedient children? The bible is a horrible, violent book. The Sunday preachers pick and choose what they tell you to suck you in

I don't remember the christian bible telling you to kill non-believers, rape their wives, and enslave their children, [...]

Funny, I think I remember stuff like that. Try Deuteronomy 20:10-16:

When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee: [...]

Ok, you get the point: imperialism, enslavement, plunder, genocide, all in one single chapter of the Deuteronomy; of course there is a lot more if you care to read on. Googling around I found a pretty site that might help you understand that the Bible is just as nuts as any other religious text.

People always used to 'pay' for their wives back then.

It's not the paying-for-your-wife part that I have a problem with. It's the part where she has to marry you, and all you have to do is pay her father -- and this because you raped her.

So now that you mention it, really seems like the rapist doesn't get punished, and the victim does.

You're just showing what an ignorant bigoted fuckwit you are here

Read my signature. And then go back and read the context.

Yes, exactly, do whatever the fuck you want as long as you believe in Jesus. Just ignore the fact that by believing in him you have recognised the fact that you are a sinner and you believe he has died for those sins, and that you are thankful that they are forgiven and don't actually want to be sinning anymore.

I don't see how that follows.

I mean, yes, it takes a bit of a sociopath, but it's really quite simple -- if I sinned so much in the first place, maybe I believe that he died for my sins, and I don't care at all.

How do you expect the bible not to be relevant to the time it was written?

I don't.

However, if it were the word of God, as is often claimed, and an absolute truth, as is also often claimed, it would be timeless.

from your quality of information so far

Tell you what, if I get bored, I'll go to Gutenberg and grab a KJV. I know I've looked these up before.

And if you get bored, go read.

Yes, I did say they deserve to die. That is part of Christian belief - everyone deserves to die as soon as they come into existence, because of the fall.

Let's remember this, shall we? What was the fall?

Oh yeah, someone took a bite of an apple.

They took. A bite. Of an apple.

Alright, it was some symbolic apple. It was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. So we deserve to die for wanting knowledge, now? The only way to live without sin is to eat of the Tree of Life, but not the Tree of Knowledge -- Life without Knowledge.

You'll forgive me if I don't respect this belief of yours.

I didn't say I'd stone anyone, I wouldn't.

You did, however, say that they deserve to be stoned, as per the law.

He gave his life rather than killing them.

Well, actually, they killed him.

Which raises another fun debate topic: Why can't an all-powerful God absolve humans without having to kill his son? Why can't he just waive his magic... hand?

I personally don't think believing in another God is any more evil than anything else, but yes it is something worthy of death, the same as extending sentiments such as 'fuck you' to a fellow human being, or lying.

You'll probably be getting that other post I made just now... If not, the correct translation is "No more than an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth."

I honestly don't see how lying deserves death, or how believing something else -- being misguided, or uninformed -- deserves death.

I also find it unreasonable for a deity to offer no chance after death for sinners to redeem themselves. Nope, if you die without believing -- without any proof whatever, of course -- then you get to burn forever.

When (well, more likely 'if') you one day realise what scum humans are and how basically everyone deserves to die

I simply don't believe that.

I could certainly find plenty of people who are scum, and perhaps deserve punishment. But we all deserve to die? Really?

Try this experiment -- find a sweet, innocent little girl. Make her, say, five or six years old. And say, to her face, "You deserve to die." I dare you.

I know I couldn't do it.

You're creating a nice little catch 22 for yourself by saying that if people don't agree with parts of the bible they're hypocrites, but if they happen to

That's not what he said.

The Crusades never occurred, that's a fabrication by the devil. That's obvious if you consider that the Crusades were evil. Of course Christianity isn't evil.

The witch hunts were evil too, so obviously they are fabrications by the devil too. As are the evil passages in the Bible.

If only those dirty terrorists would follow the peaceful teachings of the Old Testament- oh wait...

(2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

Besides infidels, the Bible commands us to execute fortune tellers, gays, women who are not virgins on thier wedding night, people who curse at thier parents, and people who work on the Sabbath...all sensible rules to live by...given to us directly from an all knowing God.

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

-B

So far no one has pointed out any contradictions for the Bible... tell me some. I do not know of any.

Ill still go google them, but it sounds like you had some in mind, id like to hear them.

I didn't have any particular ones in mind, just the general ones that people always point to in these online forums whenever the topic comes up.

Here's one list that somebody compiled:

I don't necessarily agree with everything on that list. I think he kinds of reaches for some, like different prophets lamenting that the righteous all die, and rejoicing that the righteous live. But others, like what Jesus said on the cross, or the entire creation story, are kinda important.

Other people have made their own lists, for example this one or these.

Or, you could just read through the thing with a critical eye and you'll find many more, I'm sure.

I'll admit that I haven't read the bible from cover to cover yet, but I haven't seen anything in there that says rape, murder, and enslave.

It is a bit over the top, but here's a starting point: rape, murder, enslave. Ok, it's not telling you to do this, but it is most definitely documenting cases of God telling His people to do these things.

If you don't like the commentary, go right to the source, and that's not the only copy on Gutenberg. Look it up for yourself.

Now, go ahead and tell me I don't understand. I still say that being a rational being, I cannot trust, let alone worship, anything that is so obviously evil to me. That its reasons are beyond my comprehension is irrelevant -- most psychopaths have reasons I'll never understand, and you could easily argue Satan would be similarly beyond my comprehension. Assuming both exist, roughly as they are described in the Bible, which should I choose? Because it's not obvious.

I'll admit that I haven't read the bible from cover to cover yet, but I haven't seen anything in there that says rape, murder, and enslave.

It is a bit over the top, but here's a starting point: rape, murder, enslave. Ok, it's not telling you to do this, but it is most definitely documenting cases of God telling His people to do these things.

If you don't like the commentary, go right to the source, and that's not the only copy on Gutenberg. Look it up for yourself.

Now, go ahead and tell me I don't understand. I still say that being a rational being, I cannot trust, let alone worship, anything that is so obviously evil to me. That its reasons are beyond my comprehension is irrelevant -- most psychopaths have reasons I'll never understand, and you could easily argue Satan would be similarly beyond my comprehension. Assuming both exist, roughly as they are described in the Bible, which should I choose? Because it's not obvious.

I'll admit that I haven't read the bible from cover to cover yet, but I haven't seen anything in there that says rape, murder, and enslave.

It is a bit over the top, but here's a starting point: rape, murder, enslave. Ok, it's not telling you to do this, but it is most definitely documenting cases of God telling His people to do these things.

If you don't like the commentary, go right to the source, and that's not the only copy on Gutenberg. Look it up for yourself.

Now, go ahead and tell me I don't understand. I still say that being a rational being, I cannot trust, let alone worship, anything that is so obviously evil to me. That its reasons are beyond my comprehension is irrelevant -- most psychopaths have reasons I'll never understand, and you could easily argue Satan would be similarly beyond my comprehension. Assuming both exist, roughly as they are described in the Bible, which should I choose? Because it's not obvious.

If you believe there's only one God as all those religions do then it seems like that is true by definition.

On the other hand Jews, Christians and Muslims believe in Satan too, so it's possible all the nasty bits in the Old Testament, and Quran came from him. And given that the majority of what goes on in them is absolutely stomach churning, it sort of makes you wonder.

I mean if you do believe in God and Satan, how do you know that some of the more obviously evil bits in religious books didn't come from him impersonating God? It's something the guy who wrote Prophet of Doom came up with respect to the Quran, but it seems like it could apply to most of the Old Testament too.

Inara: You have a strange sense of nobility, Captain. You'll lay a man out for implying I'm a whore, but you keep calling me one to my face.
Mal: I might not show respect for your job, but he didn't respect you. That's the difference.

Another one I like is where Mal says "it feels stronger".

If you are really open to other beliefs and facts, take a read here, but be warned -- not for the faint of heart, and you most certainly will lose some faith when you read that. Have a copy of your Bible ready...

Thanks for the link, now whenever some Bible thumper gets in my face I know just where to go to show how evil their "God" is.

Our beliefs are every bit as strong as facts and evidence used by Evolutionists

Stronger, if by "strong" you're talking about how tightly you cling to that belief. Evolutionists are generally pretty convinced of the accuracy of Evolution, but we are open to a new theory, if it was presented with sufficient evidence.

and should be treated with exactly the same respect.

Sorry, no.

Firefly quote time:

Inara: You have a strange sense of nobility, Captain. You'll lay a man out for implying I'm a whore, but you keep calling me one to my face.
Mal: I might not show respect for your job, but he didn't respect you. That's the difference.

I can respect you, as a person. I respect most people that way -- it takes a lot to convince me that a particular person is beyond help, that it would be impossible to ever teach them to be a decent, intelligent person.

But there is no way in hell you'll get me to respect your beliefs. They are laughably wrong and unfounded, with their closest real proof being a book that is not only old and dusty, but frequently self-contradictory, even in Genesis.

If you are really open to other beliefs and facts, take a read here, but be warned -- not for the faint of heart, and you most certainly will lose some faith when you read that. Have a copy of your Bible ready...

Regardles of the knowledge of said deity, I'm sure such an omniscient benevolent diety would hardly be the type to endorse murder, rape, war, and other atrocities.

http://www.evilbible.com/

Ooops. Looks like said diety isn't such a nice guy after all.

~X~

First, this ignores the long history of Jewish criticism of the Tanakh, which was quite active long before the Christian church was formalized. Second, Christian apologetic writers appeared very early in the history of the church -- these were people who defended the practices and philosophies of the new religion against its critics. This implies both that there were critics on a wide enough scale that a reply was needed, and that there were people who would reply.

It is only VERY recently in history that people started openly questioning the Bible in a serious way. http://www.evilbible.com/ has not been around all that long.

Evil bible isn't exactly written in a style that one would expect serious scholarship to be presented. However, it doesn't delve much into dealing with counter-arguments to what it presents. It seems to quote scripture, and then attack the scripture. It points out violence in the Bible, without giving a meaningful context to the violence.

In reality, it actually is a new phenomenon (at the scale happening today).

Perhaps it's a new phenomenon among certain groups of people, but I would say that there have been highly intelligent attackers and defenders of scripture since its inception. The arguments of today are not new in the sense that no one has considered them, or replied to them, before.

It's not as though all the minds contemplating the Bible simply skipped over that, and all of a sudden someone on slashdot points it out and "disproves" the Bible.

I mean, racism, advocating torture, describing how they want to get rid of folks they do not like etc.

And doesn't Christianity say something about loving one another?

I dont know you assume torture and murder cant exist within Christianity, be advocated by the church and scriptures, and cant be done by Christians. Its historically false to even assume such a thing. Christianity is no pacifist religion . I really wish people would just accept the scripture and history of their own religions instead of making these little perfectionist strawmen. This has been going on since Jesus walked the earth, except now you can thank secular thinkers for giving you the right to free speech to even question your chosen religion.

Christian torture. Christian racism. Christian Slavery. Christian Warfare. Inquisitions (more torture). etc

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

And lo, the Lord appeared and said onto them:

And stop groveling! It's always sorry this and forgive me that. And those miserable psalms, they're so depressing!

Regarding your own experiences, I wish I had similar ones. Even if I did, it wouldn't be sufficient to make me believe what I was taught -- not because I'm such a determined atheist, but because I believe God is essentially impossible to prove, even if he does exist.

Yes, I'm rambling. Back on track. I can't prove or disprove God to you. I will suggest, though, that if the question of why so many millions of people choose to believe in a fairy tale bugs you and makes your blood pressure rise, perhaps an honest, genuine investigation will help. No churches, no worship services, no well-dressed clergy shoving offering plates at you; just you and a Bible.

I did, and this website seems to be a pretty good collection of the kinds of things I found. If the God of the Bible exists, he's an absolute dick, and I would sooner go to hell than worship him.

I can't say that you'll get some overly bright, Spielburgian mist swirling around you and booming, disembodied voices in the room.

And yet, until something like that happens, I will continue to ignore the question of the existance of God, except when I believe that the believers are getting dangerous. Actually, I welcome people like you -- you seem a lot healthier, even if you are hearing voices, than the majority running this country.

However, if I do get something "Spielburgian", I'll return to that question. I doubt my essential beliefs will change -- I will neither believe nor disbelieve in that disembodied voice -- but I may not laugh as hard at true believers.