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1) Yeah, it's really so hard to download Java, I mean, where do I start? http://www.microsoft.com/java maybe? oh fuck, it worked. http://www.java.com/ maybe? Oh shit, it did. Hey, even http://java.sun.com/ worked, what is this?

2) Says who? It is a virtual machine afterall, and if you run more Java apps all of them won't use as much memory as the first one did. Also memory are cheap and who cares. It's a good and safe language and you probably ends up with less bugs.

It is very reasonable to run Java in Linux. It's harder/more painful/whatever in the BSDs but it works.

Adobe Reader: http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/
Sun Microsystems Java: http://www.java.com/en/
Azureus: http://azureus.sourceforge.net/
iTunes: http://www.apple.com/itunes
Winamp: http://www.winamp.com/
AudioScrobbler: http://www.last.fm/
Mozilla Suite: http://www.mozilla.org/
Opera: http://www.opera.com/
GIMP: http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/
GAIM: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/

I also suggest to get:
B's Recorder gold: http://www.bhacorp.com/products/gold8/index.html
Corel Painter IX: http://www.corel.com/
Powerquest.. sorry Norton Partition Magic: http://www.symantec.com/home_homeoffice/products/s ystem_performance/pm80/index.html

I'd like to write a small descriptions for each software but I have busy now so this is just fast reply. :)

Anybody freely moving software from their Amiga or Commodore to their PC?

As with all software, it requires the developer to implement that feature.

My former employer still cannot get ASP.NET working the way they want it to.

I think that'd have more to do with your former workmates understanding of HTML, javascript and ASP.NET than the architecture of ASP.NET. ASP.NET allows you to render HTML in a number of ways, if you want to you can completely customise the way HTML is rendered. Basically if you can hand write the HTML you want ASP.NET to generate you, you shouldn't have too much trouble with ASP.NET. However if you don't know how to write cross browser compliant HTML, then there's a strong likelihood you won't be able to get ASP.NET to do it for you either.

Downloading Java is not that hard, http://www.java.com/ click on the automatic install button, wait

A while back my mother lost about 3 months worth of work out of Excel because the system crashed, it turned out she hadn't shut down the computer, closed Excel, or even saved during that whole period. Each day she just turned off the monitor.....

You like most slashdot readers really over estimate the average user's ability by an extremely large magnitude.

When I made the Java suggestion it was 2001

Round that time I was at a company using JSP (very similiar to ASP.NET) to generate HTML for a web application, they had explored client side java quite seriously, having developed an application in it from 1996-1998. They dropped client side java in 1998 after that project for a whole number of reasons, such as performance, memory requirements, Suns inability to standardise the language, the kludginess of swing, plus the end result looked ugly, it looked like a step backwards from windows not forwards.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. A tip for you, in a professional situation, making statements like yours is pretty unwise, because you end up looking like twice the schmuck if/when the day comes that you're given your chance to proove your argument, and it ends up being just as problematic or even more so than the original system you slagged off. In that situation it won't matter what the cause of the problems might be, people will have their knives out for you, and will be more than keen to return the favour you did them.

But Java works, ASP.NET still has a lot of issues and compatability problems with different browsers. My former employer still cannot get ASP.NET working the way they want it to.

Downloading Java is not that hard, http://www.java.com/ click on the automatic install button, wait. The JRE even asks the user to update itself after being installed. When I made the Java suggestion it was 2001, back when Microsoft had a JVM on every Windows PC, so it made sense back then.

but to date Sun has not provided what JAVA was promised to be back in 1995

Correct me if I'm wrong but I recall a promise about an environment where I could program in Linux and run on Windows. I'm but a Java beginner but still think that I'm in my place to say that if you can't get this promise working you really have to put the blame somewhere else.

As for the games (I knew it, thats what bothered you; you didn't find the cool games to play!) just look a Java Website

Sorry but this response is IMO silly. It only describes your failing of not being open to the way in which Java was heading. You could see the Java bus drive into another lane, honking its horns and flashing it lights yet you stay at your same station waiting for it to arrive.

Now a whole new station has been build before you and you can once again see the big bad Java bus drive in and here you are again just waiting for the thing to change itself to your expectations, not even noticing that it has already surpased a lot of those promises a long time ago.

Regarding sun's license (http://www.java.com/en/download/license.jsp)
I think the bigger issue is the indemnification clause. I typically won't agree to defend or 'imdemnify' a firm larger than mine....
... >you agree to defend and indemnify Sun and its licensors from and against any damages,
>costs, liabilities, settlement amounts and/or expenses (including attorneys' fees)
>incurred in connection with any claim, lawsuit or action by any third party that arises
>or results from the use or distribution of any and all Programs and/or Software.

Google's official statement is that "Sun will include the Google Toolbar as an option in its consumer downloads of the Java Runtime Environment on http://java.com./ In addition, the companies have agreed to explore opportunities to promote and enhance Sun technologies, like the Java Runtime Environment and the OpenOffice.org productivity suite available at http://www.openoffice.org./"

Somehow, the media seem to have spun this into "Under the deal, Google will allow web users to access Sun's OpenOffice from a toolbar." OK, fair enough - if you type "open office" into the Google toolbar, it'll help you 'access' it by telling you you can get it from www.openoffice.org - but it'll do the same for any other office suite, product or search phrase you can think of.

And then the Inquirer actually goes a step further with "Google has confirmed that it will launch free spreadsheet and word-processing software online and take on Microsoft in one of its biggest markets." Um, no. Google has confirmed nothing of the sort.

The actual Google press release is at http://www.google.com/intl/en/press/pressrel/sun_t oolbar.html/. You'll notice it doesn't make any reference to Google launching free software or taking on Microsoft.

But hey. Who needs facts when you can use hype instead?

Sun and Google Expand Technology Reach and Global Opportunity -- MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif., Oct. 4 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Sun Microsystems, Inc. (Nasdaq: SUNW) and Google Inc. today announced an agreement to promote and distribute their software technologies to millions of users around the world. The agreement aims to make it easier for users to freely obtain Sun's Java(TM) Runtime Environment (JRE), the Google Toolbar and the OpenOffice.org office productivity suite, helping millions of users worldwide to participate in the next wave of Internet growth. Under the agreement, Sun will include the Google Toolbar as an option in its consumer downloads of the Java Runtime Environment on http://java.com/ . In addition, the companies have agreed to explore opportunities to promote and enhance Sun technologies, like the Java Runtime Environment and the OpenOffice.org productivity suite available at http://www.openoffice.org/ . "As a leader in free and open source software, Sun has long recognized that network innovation is vital to the evolution of the global economy," said Scott McNealy, chief executive officer, Sun Microsystems. "Working with Google will make our technologies available more broadly, increase options for users, lower barriers and expand participation worldwide. Free and open source technologies, such as OpenOffice.org, OpenSolaris and Java, have never been safer or offered more choices." "Google and Java are two of the most widely recognized technology brands because they provide users with online tools that enhance their lives on a day to day basis. The Google Toolbar offers useful Internet search services while Java enables richer interactive content. We look forward to exploring other related areas of collaboration," said Eric Schmidt, chief executive officer of Google. About the Java Software for the Desktop The Java software for the desktop, also known as the Java Runtime Environment (JRE), is a software package that needs to be installed on a machine in order to run Java technology-based applications. Over 700 million desktop users leverage Java technology today to have a more interactive experience on the web. Users can download the latest version of the Java software for the desktop for free at java.com, and test drive the hottest Java technology-based games and applications. About the Google Toolbar The Google Toolbar is a powerful search and web surfing utility that seamlessly integrates with users' web browsers. It's available in 34 international languages and supports a built-in word translation that translates English words into other languages. The Google Toolbar is scheduled to be available as a Java Runtime Environment download option in late October. About Google Inc. Google's innovative search technologies connect millions of people around the world with information every day. Founded in 1998 by Stanford Ph.D. students Larry Page and Sergey Brin, Google today is a top web property in all major global markets. Google's targeted advertising program provides businesses of all sizes with measurable results, while enhancing the overall web experience for users. Google is headquartered in Silicon Valley with offices throughout the Americas, Europe, and Asia. For more information, visit www.google.com. About Sun Microsystems, Inc. A singular vision -- "The Network Is The Computer" -- guides Sun in the development of technologies that power the world's most important markets. Sun's philosophy of sharing innovation and building communities is at the forefront of the next wave of computing: the Participation Age. Sun can be found in more than 100 countries and on the Web at http://sun.com/ . About OpenOffice.org OpenOffice.org is an open-source project, home of the OpenOffice.org software, the most widely distributed open-source multi-platform productivity suite. The OpenO

You missed gcj, which eliminates both the VM and runtime compiliation overhead.

Might as well screw deterministic memory- something more than necessary with realtime embedded systems.

This problem is eliminated with gcj, as long as you know what you're doing regarding GC. There is also a real-time specification for Java, which was apparently used to program a sophisiticated Boeing drone. This was announced at JavaOne earlier this week. Finally, the Javolution library is a useful tool in this area as well.

Maybe JIT moved Java from being fully interpreted, but it's still interpreted and "compiled" at runtime making it theoretically (a.k.a Javaly) and realistically on average always slower and more of a memory hog than unnamed alternatives, that's all. But, sometimes that's ok right?

Apparently, in the case of VB, Perl, Python, Ruby etc. etc. etc. Besides, as I pointed out above, there are ahead-of-time Java compilers. (JET is a commercial alternative for Windows.)

Look at how Java has taken over the desktop application market where that least matters. How many Java desktop applications do you run?

Several.

Can you tell it's Java?

No, not in the case of Eclipse, Azureus or RSSOwl. Can you? (BTW Azureus is one of the top applications on Sourceforge.) Others are minimally identifiable, but their interfaces are no stranger than Winamp or many other current applications.

If programming will always be hard, one might wonder what skeletons in the closets Java fanatics have at the price of conformity to an interface. Java version incompatibilities, buggy VMs, oh my.

As opposed to (just to pick my favorite whipping boy) C++ compiler incompatibilities, memory issues, third-party library incompatibilities, and fragility?

Java isn't perfect. I'm personally interested in seeing a truly open language developed which is more suitable for HPC, numerics and realtime, and leverages the best features of Java and C#. Until then, however, I think Java is a very good alternative for many projects, large and small.

I assume Suse managed to get a license to distribute Java anyway?

If you're a user, there's a link on http://www.java.com. If you're a developer, use the J2SE 5.0 links on http://java.sun.com.

I don't, and I use linux. Check your plugins settings. Try http://www.java.com/en/download/manual.jsp and use the automatic install link.

worst bug I stumbled upon twice: if you happen to hard-reset a comp with FF open you may lose all your bookmarks.

I've never encountered this problem. You shouldn't really hard-reset in any OS, anyways - you get plenty of warnings about it, so it isn't a bug. Human error. If it recurs, get this: http://extensionroom.mozdev.org/more-info/bookmark backup

FF wants to save everything in same directory. How about remembering where I last saved pics, html or zip/tar files? How about title of document becoming saved file name? msie is a bit better about that.

Well, different people like different behaviours. You might want to use this: http://downloadstatusbar.mozdev.org/downsort/

Most of the time they don't work either because they need java or activex, or because they are just broken.

Both ActiveX and Shockwave won't run, short of running WINE, but Java? All you have to do is download the RPMs from here.

That's why you should go to java.sun.com, not www.java.com

The latest version for download on java.com is still the 1.4.2_05... Someone needs to apply the cattleprod to the webmonkey :)

And you can quickly see which version you are running on this page which also thinks _05 is latest!

V1.4.2_06 is available for download here

The latest version for download on java.com is still the 1.4.2_05... Someone needs to apply the cattleprod to the webmonkey :)

And you can quickly see which version you are running on this page which also thinks _05 is latest!

V1.4.2_06 is available for download here

Yes, it does include a lot of symbols, but there is payback to learning them, and really most programs won't use much beyond $ % # () [] {}. Unlike some languages, Perl is not what I would describe as a 'bondage' language. If you want to program sloppy, you can program sloppy. That's fine by Perl. And this generousity is what gives Perl its bad reputation. This is funny since I and most knowledgeable Perl programmers can write perfectly clear and maintainable code. The way we do this is no secret--it's just by commenting appropriately, using meaningful identifier names and following the Perl style guidelines.

People can mock Perl all they like, but it is still a widely used powerful programming language and I am more productive in it than any other language. As a parting comment, a Cisco employee once told me (off the record of course!) that "Cisco would fall apart without Perl".

http://www.java.com
Everything you wished for.

Why don't you try this?

1) go to java.com
2) click the big "get it now" button
3) download the EXE

Now quit trolling.

There is a large "Get it Now" button that I think you'll like.

java.sun.com is for developers

Joe average doesn't know it's from sun, and visites www.java.com

Which makes it two clicks away. With a BIG yellow button.

1. Point browser to java.com
2. Click the huge "Get it Now" button (1 click)
3. Click on your platform (2 clicks)
4. Watch Java install

No :)


Seriously, just give a direct link to family members, OR, send them to java.com, it's right there, front page

Now stop whining and go back to studying, like I am ;)

http://java.com/

1. Go to the Java web site for developers/technical people: http://java.sun.com
2. Go to the consumer-branded website: http://java.com

If a user runs a executable that contains a virus, they have facilitated it themselves.

Or just go to java.com and click the Download button.

So thats why this office suite has two downloads one for windows, and one for linux. Same thing with other java software like limewire. Or I goto www.java.com and half the featured applications only run on windows or have multiple binaries for different operation systems. Thats really portable.

If you have Java installed you can use Azureus . If you are behind a broadband router, allow port forwarding for anything hitting your outside interface on ports 6881-6899 to be passed to the inside client address.

What we are seeing is that a lot of universities are moving to Java as their programming language of choice for teaching OOP. I stand behind this since a greater depth of knowledge of OOP is needed for CS students coming out.

Next time, have your friend head to www.java.com for the JRE. java.sun.com is aimed at developers - it says so right at the top of the page. www.java.com is aimed at regular users. It doesn't say that, but there is a reassuring picture of a cow in some kind of tractor beam at the top of the page.

You're looking at the full SDK

Why not check before saying? It's easy - just click the link in my post.

The SDK is around 40MB and the website references in my first post, java.com, is the end-user Java website - it doesn't even link to the SDK. The developers' website is java.sun.com.

The current JVM is around 5MB and installs without much of a problem on Windows.

Actually, it's 15MB

Now for the more serious matter. You better stop developing applets. They are almost dead. Look at the webstart stuff.

While WebStart is sweet, Java 1.1 (what Windows ships with) compatible applets are still the only practical way to deliver moderately complex applications via the browser to about 95% of the users. And before you say Flash - it is suitable for pretty graphics and animations, not serious things.

Firstly, internally, Microsoft uses SQL Server and Exchange pretty much exclusively for their respective purposes (for both development and enterprise). Exchange is perfectly capable of handling all of microsoft's employee's email around the globe.

Secondly, if there are no MS products in use at Sun, how do you recon they develop and test their Java software?

Install one. Java Installation Site. Here's the SDK, if you want it. It comes with a JVM. And yes, Sun's JVM runs in Mozilla.

Two words: Brand awareness.
Java(TM) is now heavily marketed as a brand and Sun does everything it can to make sure the average Joe know it exists, even if he doesn't know what it is. Don't believe me? Check this up: www.java.com .

Software I think deserves to be on your list:

• Mozilla Seamonkey Suite Your "classic" mozilla install
• Mozilla Firebird. The smaller Mozilla browser, but still damn good
• Mozilla Thunderbird. Mozilla mail, smaller yet. Complete with built in spam filtering :)
• Winamp 2.x. Can't beat a classic
• Sun J2RE 1.4.2 Probably not necessary, but best to get it installed and out there.
• RealOne Player BASIC. Despite what you think about Real, RealOne isn't such a horrible player, and RV9 isn't a bad codec. Their marketing department needs to be hit with a giant stick though, so make sure you disable all the "automatic options" in realone. Link is to a direct download of the Realone basic player, no hunting for the free version :) CDex Damn good ripping software for windows, and one of the easiest ways to get Ogg on windows.

Are you absolutely positively sure you want to use Windows XP Home instead of the much better XP Professional or even better 2000 Professional? I've had nothing but heartache with the PCs that my family members have bought that have XP Home on them...

Otherwise, people have already suggested Mozilla and a few have suggested Mozilla Firebird, which I myself think is a far superior mail product. Mozilla Thunderbird is what I use for mail at home right now, but it's an acquired taste.

Ad-Aware is indispensable. Every PC should have a copy of it.

For image viewing Irfan View is probably the greatest thing in the world.

You'll of course need WinZip and you'll need the DiVX codec and unfortunately you'll also need Quicktime and Shockwave for numerous braindead (and not so braindead) websites along with the latest Java VM. Besides that, the rest is left up to personal taste. I'd suggest a copy of MS Office because OpenOffice makes me want to gnaw my arm off but then again that's also partially because I can buy Office on student discount at the University Bookstore.
Oh, and get a BitTorrent client from somewhere.

While attending the JavaOne conference this week in San Francisco, one of the key points made is that Sun is trying to simplify this process. They talked in specifics like removing the java icon in the tray which, when clicked, brings up a java console...obviously not a consumer feature. They have launched two new sites also: java.com for consumers and java.net for techies. Looks like they'll be working on the user experience of getting Java onto the consumer machine.

The other item of interest at the conference was the announcement of a deal with both hp and dell to ship the jre on new systems from each respective company. Interesting from the recent ms decisions to not bundle it with windows...

Does anyone else find it strage that Christina Aguilera is a spokesperson for java? http://java.com/en/explore/mobile/christina.jsp

I am such a filthy hoar:
java.com and java.net

Q: Why use reinvented tools for reinvented tasks?
A: To reinvent the solution!

Makes perfect sense to me. If you are wondering, XML is nothing more than flawed S-expressions and Java is a reinvention of a P-code interpreter. Combine the two and you have more reinvention. All paths lead back to the future...

On the other hand, I can see him disapproving of efforts like Wine, which have the potential of turning systems that already are 100% Free into less-than-100% Free. "Hey, MS Office runs in Linux now? Let's stop using KOffice!"

I once thought this very thing, then I saw him speak in January at ArsDigita University, and I asked him about this very thing. His answer, iirc and may paraphrase, was that projects that bridge proprietary and free operating systems and proprietary software are very important, and that GNU at first required and was developed with proprietary unices- but that as these requirements fall away (and we must make progress in making them fall away), they become unnecessary. But he approves of the WINE project specifically. Personally I think if there's a distinction to be made, it's that we should focus on making non-free apps run on free os's more than we should focus on making free apps run on non-free os's (and in non-free languages), but that's just my opinion.

Bryguy