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Microsoft's Mac Business Unit
An anonymous reader writes "Today's Seattle Post-Intelligencer has an interesting piece on the folks who work at the Mac Business Unit for Microsoft."
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I had no idea Microsoft used Macs. I guess this means they are giving up on Windows.
They make software for macs and have a mac business unit. I hope someone can get some shots of macs being unloaded from a truck.
slashdot, news for crazed liberal socialist zealots
"Far from it. But as one observer put it, it's as if they were working for a division of General Motors making parts for Volkswagens." I predict that this will be repeated when Linux is mainstream on the desktop.
..they recounted with pride such tales as the colleague who broke up with a girlfriend who bought a Windows PC.
/.
that guy definitely does not read
well, maybe he does now
vodka, straight up, thank you!
Microsoft's muscular Herculean right arm has no idea what its tiny, flubbering nub of a left hand is doing.
Now imagining this congealing beast of a company with the head of Steve Ballmer gives me an interesting image. Kind of like the Trapper Keeper blob from South Park.
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
Wow, Microsoft is going to monopolize the Mac Businesstoo?
Oh well, it was worth a shot...
How shall we put this? Their spokesperson could do with just a tad more charisma. Or to be rather more honest, several swimming pools' worth of extra charisma...
Cheers,
Ian
But the people in the Mac BU take noticeable pride in Office for Mac as a product in its own right, not merely a translation of Windows Office to the Mac operating system. Office 2004 for Mac, for example, includes a number of features not available in the Windows version of Office, such as a "project center" in the Entourage e-mail program that lets users manage in one place a project that involves different types of files.
With Office for Mac development discontinued, I wonder what Apple has up its sleeves. It needs some sort of MS Office replacement, which at the moment it doesn't have.
More like "from the bread-and-butter-dept". Microsoft's Macintosh division is one of its most profitable, and a profit-making division at Microsoft is getting be something of a rarity what with the company loosing money through the nose in countless divisions. In fact, I believe there's only one division more profitable- the OS division.
That's one of the reasons for the symbolic deal a few years back where MS bought $150M in Apple stock(by the way, that's not even a fraction of Apple's CASH reserves, so sit down all you "MS bailed out Apple" morons) and committed on paper to releasing Office for the next however many years(and to do so on the Mac first, as has always been the case).
Please help metamoderate.
Communisits practicing Capatilism? wait -- is it the other way around?
-------
FM Clan
I don't see why people are all surprised and start making jokes when they find out that Microsoft Corporation owns a few dozen Apple computers.
;-)
Surprise surprise -- Apples are largely the top-rated boxes for computer graphics and animation. And I'm sure some of that goes on at Microsoft, even if only in the human resources, marketing, and administrative departments.
Microsoft's a big company and makes decision based on how they help the company's bottom line. And Macs are great with certain tasks, so why not use them?
The fact that they have a business unit should be no surprise to those of us who actually have jobs and work for a software company!
Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate. Ex-O'Reilly/MIT employee, now a full-time Google employee.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Cool, so I can get a job with Microsoft just for macking? I do that in my free time, anyway!
True story.
May Microsoft burn in hell for corrupting a Mac!!
The mac team cares about making high quality software. Anyone notice that the Mac versions of Microsoft software is usually better than the Windows counterparts?
So it tells you, MS can make good software, they just have to actually care.
They also fixed the CSS bugs on Mac IE. That just shows you...something. They have a fix for this, but they wont release it for windows. Add your consipiracy theory here.
So I didn't RTFA, but does the "Mac" Unit take care of business by killing pirates using Ingrams (e.g. Mac-10, Mac-11)? Intriguing. I wonder if Max Payne has already applied for the job...
True story.
well, maybe he does now
The guy's a Mac user...he can get another girlfriend
I come from a LAN down under
Where the packets flow and routers chunder
Blogger dismissed from Microsoft
If you're not a liberal at 20 you have no heart; if you're still a liberal at 30 you have no brain.
You forgot the last part... If you still think there's a difference between liberal and conservative politicians at 40, you're brainwashed :-o..
And to top it off, her last name is Ho.... /pimp
Office for the Mac starting with Office 98 was a very Mac-like suite of applications (Ignoring the crappy version before that). In fact, Microsoft seemed to work hard to make it as Mac-like as possible, which even some other developers were a little lax at.
Office v.X is really good. Excel is a great application, Word a little less so, PowerPoint tolerable. I'd like to see Entourage made a little more Mac OS X technology-friendly-- e.g., give me the option to use the Mac's Address Book within Entourage. But I think they're still doing a good job overall. The fact that Microsoft supported Quartz so quickly is a great sign. Then, after Microsoft dropped the price of Office v.X after sales were a little dismal showed they were responsive to the market. It goes to show you that when Microsoft has to compete, they can do well.
However, Microsoft doesn't always want to compete -- it's easier to dominate than it is to compete. So when Apple introduced the excellent Safari (and with the success of Camino), Microsoft crumbled like a cookie. The problem is, Internet Explorer was really slow and felt kind of crappy. To this day, whenever you launch it, it bugs you about "making it the default application" while ignoring your request to not display the message again. Not surprisingly, Microsoft killed it (and with it, all Mac compatibility with web designers who insist on designing for Internet Explorer). That action showed the side of Microsoft that all Mac users expect is lurking underneath the shiny, Aqua exterior.
Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
"Aggressor Squadron"
(Yes, yes, it's not for the same thing, I know. Go back to your 'Dew.)
What I say is that Microsoft should recognize the superiority of the Apple platform. They would probably earn a better reputation if they only developed software for the Mac. They'd probably make MORE moneyb if they developed software in an honest manner.
J.I don't think Mac users have anything to worry about, as far as MS software availability for their platform in the future. MS would find themselves nearly-instantly back in Monopoly court if they announced that they were no longer going to write software for anything but Windows.
I guess they -could- escape that by writing for Linux instead, but I have a feeling that if the only person left in the world using a Mac was Steve Jobs, they'd still have a 10-person MBU.
Maybe every business has a unit that uses competitors products like Coke has a Pepsi unit and Crest has a unit that brushes their teeth with Aqua Fresh. Its like one big Utopian Free-Market captialist society....
Trix are for kids!
Not trying to be a troll (intentionally anyhow), but this has been known for a long time. Why is it so surprising? They even have a Unix department (*GASP*!!).
[posted anonymously due to my employment at Sun]
Microsoft also uses Sun servers internally. Not for development mind you, but to run their database and email servers. Enterprise 10,000's running iPlanet, exchange simply can't handle the load of 55,000+ users.
Last time I talked with anyone who dealt the MS account, the Sun service guys had to remove their badges and cover up any Sun logos on boxes and packages going into the facility.
For the record, Sun still uses no MS products internally. (other than a few laptops with XP here and there.) Sun really does run on Sun.
-k
mod parent up :D
Yeah, their special department for eunuchs is called the "choir unit."
True story.
Anyone else remember Internet Explorer for Unix?
The more you know, the less you understand.
The guy's a Mac user...he can get another girlfriend
No doubt. If he can afford a Mac, he can afford to replace his real doll.
I will admit it. I sometimes feel dirty using Word of my mac. Can't wait for a native install of open office (or an alternative) to roll on out.
Yep
Microsoft have written software ever since the Mac was released in 1984. In fact I believe one of the Office family (was it Word or Excel?) made its GUI debut on the Mac.
While they might have their differences and have even taken each other to court over OS appearance etc, Bill Gates has been quoted as saying something along the lines of 'The Apple Mac is the only other computer system worth writing software for'.
Personally I think the Microsoft Mac team write some great software. Nice to see common sense transcending the die-hard zealotry we usually see...
In Windows, we call that a folder.
I use Appleworks to make very complicated and elaborate final engineering reports for work. Lots of charts and diagrams. It's like Word minus the features you never really use. Excellent program for, what, 60 bucks nowadays?
--- Ban humanity.
Actually annoy me. Why?
Because it means that IE on our intranet is not a common platform to code to anymore. Consequently I have to roll out different CSS sheets because two versions of IE that used to render the same now render differently!
The result of this (among other things) is that now the Macs are being phased out. We tried Mozilla for a while, but it's DHTML support is slightly up the creek if you want to do complex stuff like web-based applications and JavaScript.
So MS Mac guys. Please share your bug fixes in future!
I can't wait for an article on the Microsoft's LBU : Linux Business Unit :D
oh wait.. this is SCO!
A very good book, sometimes makes me dream about starting a company with my geek friends.
And yes, some characters are kind of Apple fans; altought Coupland points that the corporate culture of both companies is very alike.
I have no idea why the parent is "funny". Everyone knows Microsoft makes Mac software, and without question, they have labs that have everything from Macs to vanilla Linux machines, Sparc Stations and everything else. Any company that does not investigate it's competition is beyond ignorent. People cut Microsoft a lot, but stupid people they are not.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
General manager of the Mac Business Unit, Roz Ho is a Ho.
I don't know about that, but judging by her performance during her segment of the MacWorld Keynote, she's a ghastly public speaker.
some big news source wrote an article on it.
I predict that they will open the Linux BU 2 years after Linux has made Microsoft totally irrelevent.
Uhm, but wouldn't that mean the MS Linux Business Unit would already exist?
The guy couldn't be a Mac user. If he were a Mac user, he wouldn't be looking for a girlfriend.
Most people who buy Microsoft Office for Windows buy it at a significantly reduced hardware bundle rate, whereas Microsoft offers no such deals for Mac users. All Mac users must pay full retail sticker for MS Office.
Just another way that MS discriminates against the Mac.
They're also the guys who know that paired RAM stick do not a valentine's-day gift make.
How else are they going to get any work done when they get hit with these Outlook viruses?
It's 29 dollars for three years worth of updates and works better than Word or Appleworks for my needs. http://www.redlers.com/
When McDonough visits Apple, for example, many of the initial questions about a product are about the user experience -- how it looks and feels, why a certain color was chosen, or how a given button works. At Microsoft, conversations tend to start with the underlying technology, or what kinds of protocols were used.
Heck, that explains the design difference between Apple vs. the rest of the PC world (including Windows and Linux).
How nice that the head of the Mac BU at Microsoft is named "McDonough"!
Guess that makes him qualified to be where he is.
How do you want ass whooped? Original or extra crispy?
Oddfox
(Getting ready for take-out at Kentucky Fried Geek)
While I generally like Office, Remote Desktop and can tolerate Virtual PC (lack of G5 support is not acceptable) I find the Mac BU decision re: Exchange server quite criminal. Yes, they added support for Exchange server in Entourage, however that support is for Exchange 2000 and only if you leave things alone in a stock install. We have numerous clients that run Exchange sevrer 5.5 and 2000 but turn off all but MAPI support. MS decided to not include any support for the MAPI protocol in Entourage!! They could have just ported Outlook 2001 to the Carbon spec and we'd be pretty well off but they took another route wich in most corporate environments almost lock us out totally in this manner. Thank Apple for including a fairly robust Classic environment so we can still run Outlook 2001 but if you've ever dealt with Classic apps and trying to get something like Outlook 2001 to runs problem-free then you know that we really need an OS X native Exchange client. To add insult to injury they still don't offer MAPI support in the new Office 2004 they recently announced. Just last week I sent feedback to Apple asking them to explore the possibility of them creating an collaboration system like Notes or Exchange on the Mac platform but making sure they use open protocols, 100% equal Mac, Windows and Linux clients, a plug-in system to integrate with Notes and Exchange and practically give it away. Talks about a killer app for Mac OS X Server.
I predict that they will open the Linux BU 2 years after Linux has made Microsoft totally irrelevent.
Wow! So it's been around for about four or five years, then. Cool...
It has little to do with marketing budgets; they advertise in Macintosh magazines- they're regularly the first two pages in Macworld. You wouldn't be asking questions if you saw how much Office for the Mac costs.
That's doubtful.. The OS and Office divisions are the cash cows for Microsoft. There is no way the Mac group is more profitable than the Office group.
Office is the Mac group's only product, and further, I specifically said the OS division is more profitable. Read, kay? Jesus, it was even in the text you quoted from my comment.
Here's a few numbers to wrap your head around. 1)MS Office for PCs? Included with almost every PC for nearly free. 2)Office for Macintosh? $400. What's bigger, 5% of the market at $400/copy, or 95% of the market at "near free"? Hmm?
Why do you think the Macintosh version of Office always comes out first? Why do they sign agreements committing to developing it well into the future? Why do you think it doesn't have any pisses-off-customers product activation? Hmm...maybe because they make a shitload of money off it and want to keep the gravy train rolling?
Please help metamoderate.
Mod parent up!
...wow, the AC's follow you around like yer the friggin messiah or something. I swear that every time I see one of your comments some AC is threatening your life.
I'd be waiting to mug their sanitation guys with that kind of stuff being thrown away. Bet there's perfectly good G3/G4's going soon.
Tweet, tweet.
You have to wonder how many of those employees would jump at the chance to work directly FOR Apple.
Perhaps if/when Apple decides to make a good productivity suite to compete with Office, they should consider making offers select Mac BU employees. Might as well hire people who are experienced at developing the exact thing you're about to do yourself.
Given all the times /.'ers complain about Microsoft doing bloatware, you'd think there would be some thanks for doing a new version that's snappier, up to date, but doesn't go overboard on new features.
I easily spend 1000+ hours a year in Office v.X, and I'm really looking forward to the new version. It's darn complete - there really weren't that many holes, and it looks like they're filling most of them.
My video compression blog
...Office for Mac is so much better than Office for Windows is simply because the Mac platform is much more stable. Just like if Microsoft ever has a Linux Business Unit developing Office for Linux, it too will be more stable the Windows's version. Why? Because Linux will always be much more stable than Windows.
Carpe Diem: Seize The Day!
Exchange that works on Sun computers, please?
Not to say that MS doesn't use Sun hardware here and there, but as of right now all email at MS is handled by Exchange Titanium (AKA Exchange 2003). And nobody gives a crap about whatever logos or badges cartons have on them. Sun is a thing of the past now.
...must know what to copy next.
From the article: ...they recounted with pride such tales as the colleague who broke up with a girlfriend who bought a Windows PC.
This kind of statement really doesn't help the Mac cause... To a non-Mac user, it freaks me out, to tell you the truth. It seems too cult for my tastes.
Office is a great product, but does anyone know why it has such awful problems with unicode? Cutting and pasting text to or from other applications in Chinese or Russian always results in a garbled mess.
I still have to use my Windows box for making product brochures.
Other than that its nice having Office on both platforms (not that I'm any kind of a Word fan)...
As far as I know, .docs created using Office 98 are still translatable to all post version on both platforms. This is a 6 year old app. So, if they stopped tomorrow how long would it be before Mac users REALLY felt the pinch?
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel Boorstin
Microsoft buys virtual PC. Microsoft adopts power IBM PC processor for next Xbox. Word for OSX could be adapted to run on power pc hardware uunder another OS. MS feels mounting pressure of malicious code and is aware of platform monoculture dilemma. Windows for many people just somewhere to run office. If MS wanted to build a new machine with backwards compatibility through virtual PC, running office natively, then all the pieces are falling into place. Get ready for the clone wars
Some of you may remember the that little dispute MS has having with the DOJ back in 98?
0 9. html
/ 03 13258&mode=nested&tid=109&tid=155&tid=187&tid=98&t id=99
Here's an excerpt from some testimony from an email from Ben Waldman, then Mac BU manager, to Bill Gates:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/12
Here's also some testimony from Dr. Avie Tevanian, head of software engineering @ Apple during the trial as well.
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f2000/2010.pdf
Seems to me the Mac BU is doing just enough to keep us happy but keeping us in check at the same time...
Also, this little tidbit goes a long way to show you how far they will go to maintain the competitive edge:
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/01/20
My wife is a network admin & her company gets hardware on the cheap. If I got her a RAM stick for Valentine's day, she'd retort, "I could have gotten that for you wholesale."
Not that he'd want one, since he'd be more interested in a new boyfriend... being "artsy" and all...
All "if there wasn't Apple, how would MS do any R&D?" talk aside, MS can at times really show their like of Apple, especially Macs. Last time I was in the MS museum on their campus (while a friend was up in the MS employee store buying me stuff at cost) they had a Mac toaster with a copy of Word 1.0 and a sign saying" This is the machine that made everything possible." It went on to be very blatant that the Mac showed them the way into home computer use.
Everyone with some form of a fnctioning brain knows this. Why does Slashdot put up these articles and expect us not to know? Don't we all keep up to date with computers as often as posible? Who wouldn't spend a weekend reading white papers and computer news?
This insults us, Precious.
In an employee video shown at an event last year, they recounted with pride such tales as the colleague who broke up with a girlfriend who bought a Windows PC.
That's only because they were jealous, and because they didn't have anyone to replace him in Warcraft 3.
Mal-2
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
People sometimes stare when Microsoft Corp. executive Tim McDonough opens his laptop in meetings. But that's probably to be expected when someone uses a Mac PowerBook in the center of the Windows world.
"I can get challenged to see my employee badge," he says.
That's a sick place to work. So much for all the BS posts I've read around here from M$ apologists about how open and free the Microsoft campus is. "They let you use whatever tool you want, as long as you get the job done," they sang out as if centrally directed. Right. No he was not joking and yes, it can get you fired. That's really fucked up. In an environment of horrid group think like that, what can you expect?
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
a Mac user and former worker-at-MS-Game-Studios, it was really really really weird to see this on the FRONT FREAKING PAGE of the PI; especially since there is much more pressing news to be covered like the Presidential race, the debacles in Iraq and Afghanistan,etc. It was just too impossibly weird to see dozens of B&W G3's on the cover of the Seattle P-I. Definitely a cool article to see for Mac users in the Puget Sound area, but hardly worth front page attention.
Pooty tweet
I am sure if it was written in 2000 things would be really different. As for lying, I think the title of the book is misleading--it has very little to do with Microsoft (less than 10% of the pages).
I just pulled the first one with a large photo to pop up on Google (he typed from his TiBook)...
You see I did realize that the parent to my initial post was a joke, I just wanted to add a pic to it.
What does he show up with nest time I see him. Exactly what I told him *NOT* to get.
This guy was clueless about the subject, and chose to ignore my advice - from someone who has made a living as a musician, built and repaired guitars, and played everything under the sun (at the store, of course).
I didn't say anything. I made a mental note to never waste my time again.
As far as the girly, good riddance. If she can't see why a Mac is better, when she's had every opportunity (the guy's behind one of the best selling mac software titles, for Bill's sake - I'm sure he has a nice one at home), then the hell with her.
I think it says something when someone asks for advice from someone who actually gives a rat's ass beyond some commission or reward *and* is well versed in the subject (a rare thing these days), and goes ahead and ignores it.
I think this statement is fine. Life is too short to waste your time, especially when it's about chicks.
Is she going to ignore advice from her doctor to stop screwing Haitian man-whores? Not listen to her investment manager when he says, 'That Nigerian email is a scam'? How about the recommendation of her video store clerk that 'Caligula' is not a movie to bring over to her niece's slumber party?
I mean, it's questionable at this point.
Change the PC to something you care and are knowlegeable about and see if that little voice in your head says, "Hey, she ignored your advice! MARRY HER!" or if it says, "Hey, she ignored your advice! That chick at the coffe shop was looking at you..."
I'll let you ponder that one.
I realize that you didn't make the comment above about Microsoft "secretly using Sun servers", but those are the kind of statements that really make me upset because they are demonstrably false. If you ever had an opportunity to visit the Redmond campus, you would see that.
Microsoft invented the term "dogfood." Eating your own dogfood was slang introduced in the DOS days. Dogfood is software that's not even in BETA yet: in other words, not ready for public consumption. Microsoft is famous for having its people eat their own dogfood. It is not like the networking company you worked at.
Other terms first used at Microsoft? Vaporware. Death March. OOF. See other Microsoft jargon.
How many of you were running 2.3.x or 2.5.x kernels before 2.4.x and 2.6.x came out? It's amazing how people on Slashdot just can't seem to give Microsoft credit.
Wow. That was perhaps the least mindblowing article I have read on Slashdot in some time.
I do see what you are saying here, but I'm not sure if the Mac/Windows thing matches up exactly with guitars.
I mean, when there are only two major options (I'm assuming linux would be a bit over her level), it's different than when there are many. Perhaps most importantly, there are a lot of cheap knock-offs when talking about something like musical instruments.
However, that's not really the case with OSes. You can't go out and buy a cheaper knock-off of Windows or Mac OS and have it run the same programs only worse in some way. Same goes with the doctor example... it's not really the same, because we're not dealing with such a small number of choices.
Basically I just wish that everybody could see the good points of one OS and the good points of another. It is perfectly reasonable to feel like the good points of one outweigh the good points of the other, but that doesn't mean people who feel the same way about the other side are wrong and should be punished.
The other reason why I pointed it out is that it seems very unlikely to me that it was the only reason she was dumped... there were likely other circumstances. What is disturbing in that case is that the article writes that without bothering to make it sound abnormal, like it is something all of the MS Mac employees might do.
Sure: Access is a pig and it's nasty, but it's still a vital part of Office on Windows, and in the past what: SIX YEARS that Office has been on Mac they haven't puzzled out how to port that thang over to Mac?
MS feeds the Mac community the barest minimum to keep stringing the Mac People along and buy their junk^H^H^H^H software.
It's like that line by Godley and Creme, from Business is Business:
"Throw him them the bones
But freeze the meat
Cuz the meat comes off
but the beat goes on
Business is business..."
I think MS would just LOVE to dump the Mac, and I believe they will do so when... (pull the curtain, Fred)...
Apple Turns Apple works into a useful, efficient, and worthwhile app. (Right now it's OK for my daughter, but useless in any business sense. And it has a long way to go before it gets there.)
Once that happens, they'll ditch Mac like a hot potato and THAT is the reason why Apple Works sucx and will ALWAYS suck, because as soon as MS pulls Office off the Mac, the MAc's future will die a death at the hands of Moore's Law.
Things are not as cool as they seem, or as nifty as the article prtrays.
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
I agree that the Unicode support in Office is not very good. The MS Mac Business Unit folks are well aware of this unfortunate fact, and hopefully this deficiency will be addressed in a future version of Office.
Regarding the Japanese features, you should really be more thankful that they exist at all. If it weren't for the presence of a very talented, Japanese-savvy member of the team (Dan Crevier), those features wouldn't even be in MS Office to begin with.
I agree that the MS Language Registry is clumsy and instead should just be a preference checkbox instead. Presumably there is a good reason for doing it they way they did, as those folks are all very bright people.
But to get to the point... I have been using the Japanese features of MS Office for years, and I have never even heard of the menus turning into a "mishmash of English and Japanese." My menus are, and have always been, completely in English. Moreover, the Japanese features can be toggled on a per-contact basis in Entourage, for example, so I'm not sure how other users (with completely separate Entourage identity databases) would see anything other than a completely English-centric environment. I think you have something else going on there; you may want to consider re-installing and updating to the latest version of the Office v.X software.
While I can't speak too much about Japanese support in the other Office apps, I've always found the Japanese support in Entourage to be top-notch and worthy of high praise. MS Office on Windows has nothing like it whatsoever.
If you don't care about other people you have no heart, if you don't learn to rip them off you have no brain.
--
make install -not war
MSoffice on Mac is STILL second rate. [Why?] One Word: Access.
...as soon as MS pulls Office off the Mac, the MAc's future will die a death at the hands of Moore's Law.
Let me get this straight.
No matter how many usability and feature benefits it has over its Windows counterpart, the Mac version of MS Office is "second rate" because it lacks -- of all things -- Access? A product which you admittedly call "nasty" and "a pig?" While the Mac could certainly use a solid GUI-based relational database -- and please resist the urge to even think about tossing up FileMaker as falling in this category -- Access is hardly the solution we need. With PostgreSQL, MySQL, and other enterprise class databases available for Mac OS X, I fail to see how the lack of a Mac version of Access somehow renders Office v.X as the "barest minimum."
First of all, please explain to me and the rest of the folks here how Moore's Law is going to kill the Mac. I would love to hear how ever-increasing microprocessor transistor density is going to spell the death knell for Apple. Pray tell us.
Secondly, if Microsoft were to drop Office for the Mac, it would only incentivize Apple to put its support behind OpenOffice. As odd as it may seem, millions of Linux users worldwide manage to use OpenOffice to exchange office documents with their Windows colleagues. Why couldn't Mac users do the same?
Things may or may not be as cool as they seem, but they are certainly not as bleak as you portray.
Cat got your tongue? (something important seems to be missing from your comment ... like the body or the subject!)
Buying a laptop with Windows on it is not that bad is it?
To avoid this terrible fate, do buisiness with an AOpen dealer who will happily sell you a laptop without an operating system and really not charge you for it. Ask them about free software, the more they hear it the more they will get into it. AOpen will do what it takes to get your business.
Disclaimer - I work for a place like that now.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
If you look over the last 10 years the MS Mac Business Unit has a pretty good record of releasing ground breaking software that then languishes. The question is whether this happens because of larger Microsoft/Apple squabbles or simply because of corporate negligence.
Explorer 5 for the Mac OS 9 was groundbreaking in it's support for web standards. The Tasman rendering engine really was ahead of it's time especially in the support of CSS and web standards. Also many of it's HI features were several years ahead of it's Windows brother and some features (like sliding drawers and XML based customizable buttons) seem to have been 'borrowed' in OS X. Although it was roundly savaged for being dog slow, the OS X port of Explorer helped legitimize OS X (even today it still is the best browser for rendering MS friendly websites). Given the state of development tools at the time (and OS X itself) just the fact that the port worked was a big deal, but MS has since let the browser die blaming competition from Safari. I think it's obvious that MS killed Explorer as a screw you to Apple, but my guess is that we'll have a better Safari as a result.
Starting with Office 98, the Mac versions of Word, Excel, and to a lesser extent Powerpoint have consistently surpassed the Windows versions in terms of usability and design. While the program has evolved little (even through it's OS X port) since 98, it's a workhorse that helps keep the Mac a viable corporate machine. The best thing the Mac BU did for the Mac OS was to make Office documents data compatible across platforms. Back in the late nineties when everyone was thinking the Mac platform was dying more than any other software this version of office and the cross platform documents it produced helped restore confidence in the Mac. Today this platform agnosticism seems to finally be breaking down (Office for Mac can't open some of the latest Office XP documents... but then again neither can older versions of Office for Windows. Also the files produced by the forthcoming Office for Mac will not necessarily be data compatible--you will have to run a check for compatibility instead of the document degrading gracefully). Evil plot or progress. You decide.
Entourage is the grown up version of Outlook Express which itself is the child of the much beloved Claris Emailer (the author was recruited by MS and Emailer's basic form and function were kept intact. While it's showing it's age, for my money, Entourage is still the best power user email solution for OS X (Apple's Mail has surpassed Entourage in junk mail filtering but is still behind in basic mail management especially for users with multiple addresses). Entourage's lack of full Exchange support is it's major flaw and the decision to not include this support seems to be politically motivated. I believe this presents an opportunity to third party developers as there are thousands of users looking for native OS X Exchange support. Otherwise as a personal mail manager Entourage runs circles around Outlook for Windows XP which seems primitive in comparison.
MSN for OS X is a bit of a joke. I'm not sure I've ever met a single person who uses it. It's feature poor (compared to it's windows cousin) and buggy. Especially galling is that you can only log on if you use MSN as your ISP. There are many ISPs (Verizon for example) that give you free MSN email addresses and theoretically should allow you to use this browser, but only a a Windows MSN client is allowed for login.
It will be interesting to see what the Mac BU does with Virtual PC. Most mac users feel that if Connectix was still at the help that we would have a G5 version of the program already available. Also regular updates seem to have just dried up. Will VPC still be a source of innovation or will it just languish... Again happenstance or evil plot? Hard to say.
Anyway the point of all this is that innovation does come out of the Mac BU but then programs are allowed to linger for years between updates and widely reported bugs are al
Shit, I just posted this. Pisses me off!
I can see where you're coming from, but why did your uncle buy a guitar from Nigeria? And then he married your niece??? HIS DAUGHTER??? Fucking sick, man, I think I'd disown that wacko if I were you.
I'll come clean here and say that I in fact did used to work for Microsoft as an intern, in the Macintosh Business Unit. As in, no shit, there I was. These are the people I used to eat lunch with, talk about bugs with, and share the passion for a product with etc. They are Macintosh zealots in the Microsoft community, and deeply care not only about Microsoft, but also the Macintosh community as a whole. As much as you may think of them as black sheep, they wear it as a badge of honor.
;)
I've never heard more talk from a product group about what the "community" will think about a feature, what value it adds to the target audience, etc. It was a core focus, to not only bring Microsoft Office to that community, but enable them to interact fully with their Windows counterparts. There was no secondary citizenship. These people put their all into the product, and are met with relatively great success.
An amazing amount of work goes into making the software a great user-experience. Applescript exposure, different UI, Mac-specific features and development... all of those things because the Mac product was hugely important. Localization into at least 5 different languages (off the top of my head). Different product SKUs, and different new developments with what the Mac community had in mind.
A very cool thing that I found about the team was that in no way lived under the shadow of the greater Office group. They pride themselves on having the "best" version of Office, as wierd as that sounds.
Kevin Brown, the Business Unit Manager when I was there said at a MacWorld (paraphrased from memory): "We know that our users are mostly home and small business users. People aren't using Excel to make incredibly complicated PivotTables, but are using it to balance their checkbook". That quote stuck out in my mind as something that always made me chuckle. It was a realistic look at how this "enterprise class" piece of software was realistically being used by the community at large.
These are developers and testers who use their Mac everyday (some even faking their PC). I knew one tester who used the product for everything. Signs, balancing his budget, right on down to making grocery lists in word, and porting them over to Powerpoint, just to see.
I worked on the clamshell version of Office 2001, and the trophy copy still sits on my desk. I hate to hear when people bash the group as some kind of whack strategy to sink Apple, because not only are these people my professional friends, but they simply don't think that way.
It was a refreshing two summers working for the Evil Empire (tm), but being a part of a group with as much passion for quality and desire to put out the best software possible. It's made me a rabid tester, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I remember that huge Mac lab you see behind you running SETI at home, as we were in the top 20 or so for a while
If you guys are reading this, glad to hear you're going strong.
--Jay Bonci (summer of 1999, 2000, Mac Office Core)
At least she was moderately hot, as any good Ho should be.
Not surprising.
There are so many kids here who don't know much.
Even though it is somewhat off topic (has to do with Apple but not with MS), you have to see this
Its insane... simply insane... *blink*
A powerful monopolistic software company making products for a wanna be powerful monopolistic hardware/software company.
I haven't seen an article yet about the MS Linux Business Unit programmers.
Oh, wait. That's because the Microsoft Linux Business Unit has no programmers - just a legal staff, and they are outsourced to some company based in Utah.
With all the blue screen of death and viruses Windoze XP and WIndoze 2003 should be recalled and banned. It is causing too much suffering with users.
Its a shame Apple doesnt try and emulate MS by hiring some competent Windows programmers. If I have to fix another friend's PC which died because of the poor owner installing Quicktime, Im gonna go luddite, or unibomber, or something.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
All of Microsoft's 55,000 employees use Exchange running on Windows. If there are Suns being used at Microsoft, it is definitely not for corporate email. I personally migrated an Oracle system running on Sun to SQL Server on Windows 2000 Server. This was at an acquired website. So while it is true that at one time you may have found a Sun at Microsoft, it is becoming increasingly rare, or may even be non-existent by now. Use of FreeBSD on x86 at acquired companies (Hotmail, LinkExchange) was much more prevalent.
There is absolutely no situation today that would compel anyone at Microsoft to actually buy a Sun to run a mission critical app.
Microsoft has been known to drop important MAC applications - anyone remember Visual FoxPro?
I have forgotten if it happened on the first version or on 5.0. However, it went from a seemingly explicit promise to produce a MAC version to (in essence) the Windows version would suffice even for the MAC.
Hence, despite their being a profit center a larger agenda might force the MAC BU closure. Window OS and Office are the only big profit centers for MS. For now everything else is secondary.
Like it or not, Office is the standard everybody tries to copy. There isn't any product out there as integrated and feature rich - while still able to do the simple things. Office is best of breed for most people working in the erm office.
And while everybody's bitching, most developers are trying to copy and keep up, most users find they can't really replace Office, or in the end don't want to.
I haven't opened Office in months, haven't used Entourage since Jaguar came out, but I'm still convinced it's a great product. Too expensive, but invaluable.
Am extremely enthousiastic about KOffice, this for the database mainly, but if I were to go back to a life that needed some office application, I have no doubt I'd ultimately - after much strugling and bitching - end up using M$ Office again.
I think, therefore I am...I think.
You are confusing retail pricing for OEM pricing, plain and simple. The two are NOT comparable, period.
If you compare the RETAIL price of Office 2003 with Office 2004, you will see that they are almost identical. Buying them at any retail/wholesale store will show you the exact same thing.
OEM pricing will ALWAYS be better on the PC because OEMs are who sell computers. Apple is the only Mac OEM, and therefore they're the only ones authorized to sell you Office 2004 at OEM prices.
You'll probably argue with me and say, "But you can buy hard drives for a Mac, why can't you buy the OEM Office suite with it?" OEMs can only purchase OEM-discounted software if they MAKE COMPUTERS. They can only sell said software if they also sell a piece of hardware. But the fact remains that until there are Apple OEMs that actually MAKE computers, they will not be able to purchase OEM-discounted software.
Try using Mac OS X 10.3 and the latest Office X and then you can post informed comments.
"Form should follow function...unless it's just plain ugly."
Looking at this one, I'd guess that a lot more of them are attempts at humorous quips that actually suck.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
Yeah, not sure about that. Most metafiles I've seen are automatically converted when the doc is opened on Mac. Stuff authored on Mac with the included Equation Editor seems to work just fine on Windows.
The trickiest case is digital media, since PowerPoint on Mac supports QuickTime, but not WMV, and PowerPoint on Windows uses DirectShow for playback, but won't do QuickTime. Embedding square pixel MPEG-1 is the best solution I've found.
My video compression blog
It's nice to see that Microsoft adhere to the OSX styleguides, yet Apple see fit to ignore the Windows one completely.
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
You can get a single, muli-seat-license disk from Microsoft with a single CD key for less than the retail price of buying many single copies of Office. Of course, there is no OEM licensing, but still, there's a multi-seat license that makes sense for a BUSINESS which has many Macs. I don't have the details but it's much like any other MS volume license.
I wish I had seen this article on Friday when people might have seen this post, but I was doing real work on my Macintosh!!!
OK, but I'm not at my Mac right now, so I can't try this.
If I download MSN Explorer, is it any use without the $10 (minimum) subscription to MSN?
Can I use it as a regular web browser for site compatibility reasons?
Lord Pixel - The cat who walks through walls
A little bigger on the inside than out
umm, the mac business unit didn't exist when Microserfs was written. The MacBU was created at roughly the same time that BillG tele-appeared at Macworld Expo Boston (1996 or 1997) during Steve Jobs's keynote, and MS invested $150 million or thereabouts into Apple. Before that, Mac software was handled internally by the Office team. Hope that clears stuff up. Also, ... grabbing my copy of Microserfs off the shelf ... I believe that all but one of the characters in the book actually works on the Office team doing Mac apps.
iRooster, the Mac OS X a