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from the must-eat-more-money dept.
razvedchik writes: "As reported in this article in the Portland, OR newspaper, The Oregonian, Microsoft is pressuring 24 school districts in the northwest to agree to their Microsoft School Agreement licensing scheme or undergo an audit in 60 days. Multnomah ESD, which covers the greater Portland area and has around 25,000 computers, has to either decide to accept the license at about $500,000 or undergo the audit which it does not have time to prepare for. Of significant interest is the fact that a significant majority of these schools are experimenting with using Linux. Multnomah ESD has its own thin-client Linux distro called K12LTSP."

I followed some of the links to k12ltsp and was wondering how schools afforded the servers required ... then I found this

With second hand kit they are mostly running PCs as diskless X-terminals; but this needs hefty CPU & memory from the server (see here for SunRay server requirements, for comparison). Often the clients are capable of something more, but you will have a range from crap to very very crap PCs, so how do you balance the load correctly, instead of just having 2 client configs, thick and thin?

Their solution: turn your terminals + server cluster into an OpenMosix cluster, so you claw back every last drop of CPU power on your network. NICE!!

Obviously this moves more load onto the network, and I'd like to see how that scaled - but this is a really cool solution to building a network from second hand kit.

-Bazzargh

Part of the problem is that, in the case of Multnomah ESD, they have a very large Linux initiative. The K12LTSP typical classroom setup, developed by a couple of techies there, takes diskless computers and turns them into linux terminals with applications for the classroom. Very interesting project. Unfortunately, they would still have to pay the "Microsoft Tax" for every one of those terminals, even if they don't have a hard drive.

The best way to help out in Portland is the following links:

K12LTSP Project with some associated links and contact information.

Portland LUG, who have been talking about this on their listserv.

Right here. (http://www.k12ltsp.org) works great, comes bundled with some software, and is even a terminal server installation. Based off of Red Hat 7.2, I believe. We're looking to get it working here at my school, but the best we've got for servers are my two Compaq P-200's :-( Anybody got P-II's or higher that we could get? Boards, chips, anything....most of our systems are 486/P-75's (for PC, 33-75) and 575/580 (for mac, 33 MHz)

All of our PCs are donated by CFS (Computers For Schools Refurbishing Program) St. Cloud State Pennitentary, St. Cloud, Minn, and (ours) have come with Win 95A/B license. They're shyite. We get complete systems, but the two of us who do hardware (mind you, we have over 700 computers in our school) can't get through them all...I'm a volunteer, still a student, only work one hour a day. We have a second PAID staffer (neither one is me) who basically does software. We have NO tech budget whatsoever in our school.

CFS gets their computers from anyone who is willing to donate them to CFS, but they are usually so old, they won't run much, and when they do, usually not very well. We're looking into *nix up here, mainly as terminals, so we don't have to keep replacing the HDD's (stupid hard drives....die if ya look at 'em funny....)

We're told we cannot move those licenses to other machines, so they're basically an OEM license, 'cept we don't get any documentation, we're supposed to call them and have them come reinstall if one dies (yeah right, hour plus drive, we've got over 150 of these CFS POSes)

Check out http://k12ltsp.org/contents.html. Might not be EXACTLY what you're looking for, but...

PXE works quite well, check out the LTSP project and the K12LTSP project for examples of working PXE solutions. I use the K12LTSP distribution to run a lab of Linux diskless terminals in my public school district and they work quite well. I turn them on, and they go.

There is obviously a conflict of interest. Luckily for us, Linux has always been about choice. For most developers, the lighter, more responsive it is, the better. For users, the more intuitive, helpful, and feature heavy it is, the better for them to get their tasks done. In most cases these two goals are mutually exclusive, but I think the point of the article was that Ximian had produced a unique desktop that could be run on both low end machines for those who do not have the option of the latest and greatest, and also on the higher end machines. We should never forget about the users.

Now there are a great number of reasons why people and organizations are unable to use the latest and greatest hardware, most of which can be traced to one problem - financial. I myself have observed this firsthand supporting a school network full of P-II 333mhz machines. As hardware starts to fail (hard drives, power supplies, etc) they are only able to afford replacing them at minimal cost, which usually means finding used hardware. I couldn't think about replacing the entire system, but thanks to the freedom of choice offered by Linux, we can provide them options to upgrading the entire system. Currently, I am looking at purchasing a terminal server, and converting all of their current computers into xterms, and using the K12LTSP distribution.

At least this way, they will have access to the latest and the greatest, without a major investment in computing hardware. Lets see other Operating Systems provide these kinds of choices for these kinds of financially strapped institutions and individuals.

1. Check to see how many nodes there are.
2. See how many cpus are in each node.
3. Calculate the total number of CPUs.
4. fork off a povray process for each CPU.
5. Wait for a process to end and fork off a new one if necessary.
6. take the individual files and make an avi file
7. encode the avi file to your favorite compression standard.
8. all done.

Users don't want to have to deal with hardware issues, they want their computer to work like their phone. Plug it in, and it works - it just works.

Perhaps what Alan was unconsciously advocating was the promotion of terminal services like those being developed by LTSP [...]

People are usually amazed when I show them this movie, especially when I say that, yes, you don't have to install any software, you just build it and plug it to the working network. People are used to situation where when you want to add 20 new computers to your office, it's a work for few days, not to mention licensing for the software plus the price of the hardware.

I use this movie in my LTSP propaganda.

Users don't want to have to deal with hardware issues, they want their computer to work like their phone. Plug it in, and it works - it just works.

Perhaps what Alan was unconsciously advocating was the promotion of terminal services like those being developed by LTSP [...]

People are usually amazed when I show them this movie, especially when I say that, yes, you don't have to install any software, you just build it and plug it to the working network. People are used to situation where when you want to add 20 new computers to your office, it's a work for few days, not to mention licensing for the software plus the price of the hardware.

I use this movie in my LTSP propaganda.

Users don't want to have to deal with hardware issues, they want their computer to work like their phone. Plug it in, and it works - it just works.

Perhaps what Alan was unconsciously advocating was the promotion of terminal services like those being developed by LTSP [...]

People are usually amazed when I show them this movie, especially when I say that, yes, you don't have to install any software, you just build it and plug it to the working network. People are used to situation where when you want to add 20 new computers to your office, it's a work for few days, not to mention licensing for the software plus the price of the hardware.

I use this movie in my LTSP propaganda.

Users don't want to have to deal with hardware issues, they want their computer to work like their phone. Plug it in, and it works - it just works.

Perhaps what Alan was unconsciously advocating was the promotion of terminal services like those being developed by LTSP [...]

People are usually amazed when I show them this movie, especially when I say that, yes, you don't have to install any software, you just build it and plug it to the working network. People are used to situation where when you want to add 20 new computers to your office, it's a work for few days, not to mention licensing for the software plus the price of the hardware.

I use this movie in my LTSP propaganda.

For you Mandrake users, I head a project to include LTSP and Mosix on a Mandrake configured kernel; to package and explain in very easy terms the whole process, and then eventually release a stripped-down Mdk, geared towards education (edu-tech is pretty much my field) ala K12 LTSP. We call it The Mandrake Mosix Terminal Server Project. Check it out and lend a hand if interested. Thanks.

We faced the same problems you addressed but we did something about it and it's working. ;-)

I beg to differ.

I applaud the success that you have had--but I note that on your demo site you take pains to point out the specific motherboard, video, and network adapters that you used, based on your prior knowledge of their reliability. Which, um, sounds like precisely what I was saying. If the local mill walked into one of your managed classrooms and dropped off a stack of IBM Micro-Channel PS/2 boxes, what would you do?

And more to the point, what would you do if you had to support not that one classroom, but scores of classrooms across a large geographical area? And support all the other aspects of the district's technology program at the same time? (The telephones, cable TV, building security systems--even the headsets for the football and soccer coaches.)

I note, particularly, that your organization focuses on 4th to 8th graders. It would be very informative to hear why you do not provide services for pre-K through 3rd grade. Is it, perhaps, because of the massive amounts of curriculum software available (not to even mention the "third-party" game software teachers always use) all of it depends upon DOS and/or Windows? And getting any two packages to work together simultaneously on most video cards is a cast-iron b*tch? (Lurkers: if you're not familiar with the problem, trust me: the hardest classrooms to provide computers to are the K-3 classes. The video driver problems would curl your hair.)

A working solution in a single classroom is not, by a long stretch, the same thing as providing IT services across the entire school district.

Please forgive me if I sound a little petulant. But I take umbrage at the toss-off line at the bottom of your post to the effect that "...we did something about it." I resent that--we busted buns to develop a district-wide IT plan. We measured user ability, satisfaction, and use before we implemented the plan; we measured ability, satisfaction, and use after we implemented the plan. We deliver "100% school time up time", while computer usage in the district has soared, and machine outages have dropped to essentially zero. The IT plan has done so well that the IT staff has effectively slit their own throats: the school board almost eliminated one of the (3.5) positions last year because things were going so well.

John, I understand the what and they why of your comment but you are wrong.

Donated equipment can be well used by schools to provide reliable access to technolgy. I think you should come and visit our 4th grade classroom via this link: http://www.k12ltsp.org/classroom.html

We faced the same problems you addressed but we did something about it and it's working. ;-)

It works, it's fast, it's free, we like it.

This movement is gaining ground. Here's a ton of sites:

Start with Why Use Open Source Software In Schools to answer your (and your superior's!) questions. Note that Microsoft is trying to keep a stranglehold on this and their salesmen are playing dirty; but we as free software activists have one thing they can not have: integrity. Teach the truth about Open Source, explain that this is the true American way, show how we need to use it in education to teach kids the right way to do things (and to share with neighbors) to make a productive world, and we'll go at it. Academia can't afford to lose itself in proprietary software; as this site explains, with free software we've got a chance for a blossoming in academia.

The K12 Linux in Schools Project

A good example is St. John's School in the UK (attention, USA education boards!)

Open Source and Education tells you how to do it, what you need to know.

Linux in Higher Education: Open Source, Open Minds, Social Justice is an important article in Linux Journal about this.

K12 Linux Terminal Server Project for Schools is just one of the things you can do.

K-12 Linux, another good site about this.

A good technical primer on Linux in Education

If you use free software in schools you will also need free documentation and training materials. Here is a list of the best of it.

(Pls mod this up guys, I'm posting anon...)

What will the kids run?
Wolfenstein! Thats what I was running during my computer classes 10 years ago, and now it runs under Linux as well...

Seriously.. any computer in schools will mostly (My guess is at least 95 percent) be used for simple word processing and surfing. That you can do perfectly well under Linux.

The trick with publicly accessible computers in schools (with no support personell), is to get them to work most of the time. The standard configuration you use on your personal computer isnt really such an good idea. Take a look at projects like Linux Terminal Server Project for Schools.Its not perfect yet, but it is a much better aproach to the problem than simply installing WindowsXP on all the computers.

If RedHat was allowed to put their software in such a number of computer (of course, nobody seriously believes they ever will), I think they could come up with something OK.

Isn't this how a monopoly deals with competition? Use market share and cash to squash the newcomers until you're the only one left standing? One of the main selling points for in schools was cost. Now it will just have to be reliabilty and ease of use.

From a business point of view: Use "Linux Terminal Server". Yes, get a fat machine to serve all the applications to your users. This way, to modify/update/change/configure.... all the clients means working in a single machine: the fat server.

This is that the city of Largo has done. This is what Linux at schools project is doing.

Actualy, any distribution will do. But I will recommend you to look for a
"support contract" from RedHat, SuSE, Mandarke...

Some links:

Linux Terminal Server Project. You will see that they have packages for any distribution

Linux in Schools. Although it is oriented for schools, school needs are the same as Your Big Comany or Government.

The City of Largo uses Linux as desktop. So it is possible for plain clerks and secretaries to learn and be productive on Linux Desktops.

A worker just needs a working desktop, so he/she can use a word processor and an spreadsheet program. The "configuration and control" must be done byt he Support Team.

And my mom is unable to properly use Windows98. She's not a moronic mom. She is smart. But she has never been trained as computer specialist. But she can use word processing and spreadsheets. Yes, she uses or has used AmiPro, Office, WordPerfect... they are all the same in the end. No FUD about "difficult StarOffice". But when Windows crashes, she enters in panic mode. delete Windows, add Linux and you get no panic mode.

Do not extend FUD.

Use OpenOffice. Fairly soon should be available as a non-beta product.

Easy to use stuff? Try KDE and make it pretty with themes.

Use KDE as the desktop. Easy transition from any user. Install the "Acqua" or "Acqua-Graphite" Theme & "MacOS Loon'n'feel" with top desktop menu for your MacOS users.

Install the Win2000 Theme & "Win2000 Look'n'Feel for your Windows users.

My 2 cents

I agree with getting Linux and Open Source software in the schools especially those that don't have a lot of money and cannot afford the M$ licensing scam.

Reusing old hardware with the above products makes sense.

This idea is becoming more real with the Red Hat announcement last week.

Red Hat is working with the K12LTSP project which is designed for using Linux and Open Source software in schools.

They will know what to do with them.

It's great when we see articles on Linux in Schools but I wish they would at least get the links right:

http://www.riverdale.k12.or.us/linux/index.html >> Main Linux in Schools project site, links on using Linux as a server for schools. Many examples and how-to's.

http://www.k12ltsp.org/ >> K12 Linux Terminal Server Project - 20 minute install, RH7.1 based terminal server with links to $200 clients. Very cool!

http://www.ofset.org/ >> Free Software in Education and Teaching - Some good work with software for schools happening here...

http://www.k12ltsp.org/educational_software.html >> Thoughts on educational software...

Bottom Line... We use Linux in our schools because it works well for what we need to do. It's free and support from the Linux community is the best. We're always happy to answer questions. ;-) Paul

It's great when we see articles on Linux in Schools but I wish they would at least get the links right:

http://www.riverdale.k12.or.us/linux/index.html >> Main Linux in Schools project site, links on using Linux as a server for schools. Many examples and how-to's.

http://www.k12ltsp.org/ >> K12 Linux Terminal Server Project - 20 minute install, RH7.1 based terminal server with links to $200 clients. Very cool!

http://www.ofset.org/ >> Free Software in Education and Teaching - Some good work with software for schools happening here...

http://www.k12ltsp.org/educational_software.html >> Thoughts on educational software...

Bottom Line... We use Linux in our schools because it works well for what we need to do. It's free and support from the Linux community is the best. We're always happy to answer questions. ;-) Paul

Donate them to schools. The Linux Terminal Server Project for schools, as mentioned in a previous article's comments, seems like it could benefit immensely from this.

What to do when the schools have all the computers they need (unlikely, but let's be optimistic for a second)? Donate them to schools/people in developing countries where people can't afford even the $400 PCs floating around today (this would be most people in the world). I can't think of a better way to sow the seeds for the development of a massive army of Linux hackers destined to propel Linux to total world domination than to grab this massive market that Microsoft doesn't care about and where the people have a much stronger work ethic (and would therefore be willing to hack) than most in the US.

Keeping up with software purchases is a nightmare for our schools. It's not just what we buy, it's everything the teachers and kids install too. Using thin-clients with K12LTSP (K12LTSP.org) is a more viable solution. Microsoft does give schools a break when buying software but free is much better! ;-)

Celebrating the release of version 1.0 this last July, 4th. let me impersonate a car-dealer:

Do you want a computer-lab in your school?

Do you need 100% uptime?

Do you want to have a maintenance-free environment?

Do you want to teach, not re-install Windows?

... but you do not want to spend $20,000 and need crash-less computers?

Well, we have a solution. The K-12LTSP v.1.0 project

For about $6,000 (less if you already have "old" computers), you can set-up a lab with e-mail, browsers, office suites, image programs...

On Linux, of course.

Newsforge article

K12LTSP home page

Work with Legacy equipment

... and a " girl magnet " as stated on their site:

Salut and education,

Celebrating the release of version 1.0 this last July, 4th. let me impersonate a car-dealer:

Do you want a computer-lab in your school?

Do you need 100% uptime?

Do you want to have a maintenance-free environment?

Do you want to teach, not re-install Windows?

... but you do not want to spend $20,000 and need crash-less computers?

Well, we have a solution. The K-12LTSP v.1.0 project

For about $6,000 (less if you already have "old" computers), you can set-up a lab with e-mail, browsers, office suites, image programs...

On Linux, of course.

Newsforge article

K12LTSP home page

Work with Legacy equipment

... and a " girl magnet " as stated on their site:

Salut and education,

I think that .NET is an interesting idea. But I'm confused why people consider this a revolutionary idea - ok, so MS has all your apps on the central server. I think I must have missed something, because most of the primary software (OS, basic functions, etc) are run locally.

Whereas with some of the more interesting projects - that have come to light lately - we are making *significant* headway into the 'NC' idea that was oh-so-trendy about four and a half years ago. The idea of HD-less boxes has become available to the masses. The Linux Terminal Server Project has managed to compile an extensive resource for creating NC's that are feasible for businesses (and significantly more efficient to administer than either a set of Linux boxes or Windows boxes.) K12LTSP is also on the way for schools.

Will either of those projects reach wide-adoption? Not bloody likely. But maybe I'm missing some grand-paradigm of ASP's that can't be fulfilled by a well-designed client/server relationship. I don't think I would ever invest in .NET when the blatantly obvious alternatives exists - especially when I can get away for $350 per client box.