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Microsoft vs. Ximian
Kappelmeister writes "The open source movement gets some great mainstream press today as the Washington Post reports tht Ximian's Volunteer 'Army' Fights Microsoft on Open-Source Code. It mentions Linux progress in the server market, Shared Source, and how both sides are courting Mexican President Vincente Fox for use in his 'eMexico' initiative to get 98 percent of the population online. Best of all, though, it tells a lot of people that there is a decent alternative to Microsoft software."
What is needed is convincing your local school that free software will save big bucks that can be used for other wasteful projects.
I demand a million helicopters and a DOLLAR!
Firstly, I would like to state that I think it's great to see this kind of articles in the mainstream press, as it shows people that there are alternatives, and the only thing they hear about open source and free software is the FUD that MS is spreading.
That said, I come to the bad side. I'm pretty tired of reading all of this mumbo-jumbo about open source as business, or as a threat to business, or whatever. I can understand why journalists like to write about it, and I think that parts of the open source community is responsible for this too.
But still - face it: Open source and free software is hobbyists writing code for their own well-being, because they (we) think it's fun, and/or because we need the software, and feels good about letting other people use and change said software too.
By doing this, you have no strings attached. All the companies in the world - and the journalists - can say and write whatever they want, but the fact is that nobody has to care.
Stop talking business all the time. The programmers don't care about business. We care about code.
:wq!
"Who would you listen to?" de Icaza moaned to an office mate. "Just another Mexican? Or the richest man in the world?"
How is it that open-source can get a channel into governments? The people who make the economic decisions, such as el Presidente, are the people that we should be talking to. I'm curious, as I'm sure Miguel is, as how that can be done...
The Death Penalty: Killing people to show others that killing people is wrong.
I wouldn't necessarily agree with that.
It's more like, "It validates the desperation of various groups trying break the World away from the Microsoft monopoly."
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
Best of all, though, it tells a lot of people that there is a decent alternative to Microsoft software.
Has anyone seen that IBM commercial advertising business servers running Linux? I thought it was pretty funny, but I'm sure most people see it and say to themselves "Linux, huh?" Oh well, it's still a good laugh, especially when the cop says "what's a server?"
~ now you know
...but the frustration on my end is that the writer doesn't seem to understand the concept of Free Software fully. Hey, they understand Open Source, though, so at least that's a start.
-- Geof F. Morris
Besides, nobody important to software takes their info from the news, they do their own research (feasibility studies and the like), so just showing to the management-type people of the world that a Linux-based product can exist in the same breath with a Microsoft product is enough for now.
Say what?!? Anyone have a more detailed explanation of this status and who the "geniuses" are who get it?
Anyway, on a less combatative note than this article, here's KDE's Konqui visiting the Ximian booth at LWCE and trying out GNOME. From Rob Kaper's photo gallery.
I think the Gnome people have got the right idea. But, I'm not sure they're there yet. It is important to focus on the HCI. Apple did just that. The result a superior user experience which has generated fanatical support from its users (OTOH Apple has made many many mistakes which is why Apple Macintosh is a niche market). By focusing on the user interface, the Gnome people counter the biggest single critisism of Linux: usability. In a rather different market, the embedded market (where Linux has already made a significant impact), Microsoft, I see have released thier 2nd beta preview of Windows XP Embedded code named Talisker. See the article in PC World. (Talisker as you may or may not know, is a town on the Isle of Skye, Scotland, famous for its rather distinctive whisky.)
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Microsoft, meanwhile, seems to be having trouble deciding how to respond to this new business model.
It's "a cancer," Microsoft officials said. "An intellectual-property destroyer." Almost un-American.
Then Microsoft executives began to "clarify" that stance
the company clarified its clarification
Those of us who read the Post daily (the dead tree version has a nice picture of Miguel and the Ximian HQ, btw) will notice an interesting parallel to the style used when the Post is going after a political figure. "Almost un-American" and "clarified its clarification" are classic ways of attacking spin.
It was alot of fun reading this while drinking my coffee this morning. Great way to start the day.
Best Slashdot Co
- Microsoft's entire, $25 billion-a-year business is based on the idea that software can be owned and sold and that the source code - the blueprints, instructions or secret formulas - are proprietary.
The author forgot to include "or rented". You know, with micropayments becoming more of a viable buisness model, I could see Bill wanting to charge you for every second that you're using his software. It'd add up the time, and send the summary to MS HQ when you connect to the internet the next time (or would stop working if 30 days had elapsed since the last time you connected to the internet). Got screwed?The next site to slashdot will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and start slashdotting it early!
For Open Source at this point, any press is good press. Regardless of the substancial and blatent inacuracies in the article, it's important to realize that the Washington Post is a valuable forum in which to promote OSS efforts. I would encourage some of the (moderate) leaders of the OSS movement write a few Op/Ed pieces for the Washington Post to clear up the inacuracies in this article, however the fact that it's there at all is a great achievement for the -until now nonexistant- Open Source Software PR machine.
--CTH
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
Best of all, though, it tells a lot of people that there is a decent alternative to Microsoft software."
the more times ppl read about linux, hear what its like and reslise the m$ sucks the better.
Do Unto Others As You Would Have Others Do Unto You - ONLY HARDER!
I'd feel much better about this whole thing if Linux actually were a decent alternative to a M$ Windows desktop. There are certainly places for Linux in a program like this, particularly in the infrastructure. Unfortunately I feel like I'm pushing substandard goods as a Free software advocate in cases like this.
I know Richard Stallman says we should always use Free software because it is a morally superior thing to do. However I worry about the future when we are using technology that is inferior, just because it may save a bit of money. There are a lot of people counting on this initiative!
Even Slashdot wants to hide some things
Best of all, though, it tells a lot of people that there is a decent alternative to Microsoft software.
COMMAND.COM -> bash
EDIT.COM -> nano
Age of Empires 2 -> xBill
Not that I'm a fan of microsoft but what kind of society is the do some of the open source companies suggest really? That a few companies makes loads of cash of free labour while the rest of the population works for free?
Monopolies are bad, but are Miguels alternative much better?
Actually, that's what Gary Condit's publicist told him.
...since I'm a professional programmer.
business = rent
business = food
I get very hungry and cold without business.
But wait, I thought Ximian and Microsoft were collaborating on .Net, not competing? How can it be that those sweet boys from Redmond aren't planning to play nice? Well, this is totally unexpected. I entirely share Miguel's dismay at this unforseeable and calamitous turn of events!
OK, maybe I'm not so dismayed after all :) I hope Miguel isn't surprised either...
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
The day gnome includes support for the mousewheel by default is the day I start using it full time.
After Microsoft started talking about how OSS was a 'cancer', they started trying to emulate it pretty quickly, thus their 'Shared Source' licensing. It makes one wonder what other 'innovations' that MS will stea... ahem... invent.
MPL - The microsoft public license allows you to use Microsoft code in any software, so long as that code is submitted to microsoft. Any code that uses MPL code, must also be submitted to microsoft.
MicroDot - A reader moderated message board that employs a fairly unique system of moderation and remoderation. All comments are, of course, owned and copyrighted by Microsoft.
MicroTux - Microsoft's charming new mascot, a uniformed Puffin, who carries a paperclip in one hand and a WinXP box in the other.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
And they don't even seem to realize. MS doesn't mind, actually, MS encourages Ximian to succeed, since MS controls the back-end, the authentication middleware.
Of course, if you see something wrong with what I just said, correct me. But I am afraid this is one of the smartest, most diabolic moves MS ever did: convince the OSS community that it's doing something cool, opensource and against MS, while it's actually helping MS.
Sigged!
May I remind you of the Anita Hill's difficulties?
:P
There is always bad press- 'good press' is also known as 'slanted', 'spin', or just down right lying.
Open source is great- now back it up with hardware, IT support, and education. The cost of 'free' software is starting to get a bit higher.
Now tack on having to reteach all of those 'schools's instructors to use the linux desktop.
Yes, linux can exist in the same breath as an MS product, but saying Open Source and waving your hands will not hide the costs that are so conviently left out.
But... I do prefer WINE at home
I love Ximian, I use it here and It's part of our mgration from Windows to Linux. but it has some major problems.
Ximian 1.4 is bloated, it's slow as Windows nt/2000 and the cause is nautlis.. Ximian on RH7.1 makes a P233 dog slow to almost un-useable. Windows NT4.0 is a touch faster... but not by much. Granted many of you are screaming... P233? why are you running stone-age hardware? well because it's still here, and is not goint to be replaced until it physically dies or is stolen. More and more corperate environments are doing the old-hardware-dance. Schools and Libraries have to becaouse of costs, but corperate is finding that IS/It is a great place to cut dollars, and they are right. we dont need W2K or XP to continue business, we did it fine over the past 4 years with NT4.0 so let's stay there... I am trying to shave even more by cutting the huge Microsoft tax we pay yearly by switching to linux in my recearch/pilot program.
if Blackbox was easier to use for the newbie.... it would be perfect.... ximian is great, I'm not knocking it, but it is getting out of hand in feature bloat that is no longer needed.... and if there is a way I can replace nautlis with something of a saner size then ximian would be perfect.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
"Mexican President Vincente Fox for use in his 'eMexico' initiative to get 98 percent of the population online"
:)
That should read "Vicente Fox" Not "Vincente Fox". I'm Just clarifying, 'tis all.
Let me get this straight, Miguel wants to clone MS software so he can give the people an alternative? A genius's idea indeed.
This reminds me of the old Hollywood line, "I don't care what you say about me so long as you spell my name right".
If this represents the Post's overall attention to facts, then -- Wait! It probably does!
Sigh.
Nevertheless, it's very nice to see a piece that is generally positive to free software appearing in a mainstream publication -- a majore mainstream publication -- like the Post.
If they didn't quite get the facts right, they got the tone more or less right, and that'll do for now.
"They've been leasing it to us on day one."
I know that they've been doing that for quite a while, but from day one? How was MS-DOS licensed? How about Microsoft Basic for the Atari 800? (I'm sure there are even earlier MS products people could cite as examples). I'm asking because I'm curious, not that I'm contesting the general validity of your statement.
I recall reading in some biography of Gatse/MS (shit, there's a Freudian slip for ya, I'll leave it in) that claimed that the key idea they hit upon was how to get people to pay for a little piece of magnetic media with some bits on it -- something no one had really built a business on before. Looking at things from that perspective, you can see that Gatse.MS is fundamentally inimical to Open Source, and that they will never, ever "get it", even if they don't adopt it.
Yikes! Don't use software if you think it's inferior - that's definitely a "Bad Thing". Use software that you feel serves you better than the alternative.
Linux, Gnome, Sawfish, Galeon, Evolution, PHP, Apache, Mozilla, XFree86, Nedit, The Gimp, Open Office, Gnucash, GQView, Hylafax, Panel, MySQL, Bash, Perl and a bunch of other sofware has no better alternative for what I do. I swear.
Richayottesoftware.com
"While people laud him, microsoft is stealing gnome's crappy code and putting it into Microsoft products"
Can you give an example of Microsoft using gnome code?
Get involved. Write letters. They *do* get counted, even if they don't count for anything until they hit critical mass. They may not read your letter any longer than it takes to tally another count for the open source zealot column, but they are at least going to do that. No one likes to lose a vote.
Be aware that in a majority rule system, it is hard for a minority (informed computer users) to find a voice. But the "ruling class" always seem to manage OK, and there aren't many of them. How do they do it? They make noise and they spend money.
So, donate to EFF, buy products based on open source, and encourage your company to do the same. For example, I order new systems with commercial Linux distro's on them even though they will most likely end up with Debian installed by the time they go into service. Sure, it's a drop in the bucket (we are a very small company) but we do what we can. I try to buy switches and hubs that have the "works with linux" stickers on the box. I know there isn't really any difference, but I want to reinforce the idea for hardware manufacturers that "support for linux = more $$$".
Hopefully Red Hat and others will eventually have enough cash to grease a few wheels. It only takes one lunch with a Senator where someone says "Please don't put us out of business... and by the way did you see that we contributed a little something to Furman's computer lab? Doesn't little Margory go to Furman? What a pleasant coincidence. I do hope to see you at the next campaign rally" to swing a vote at the next committee meeting.
I'm one of those people who believes that lobbyists exert far too much leverage with our representatives, and most of it does not work in our favor.
Lobbyists do what they do with CASH. I am not sure that Linux and related technology needs to be commercialized to survive, but we (the community) do need to buy or beg at least enough influence to make sure we don't get patented and DMCA'ed out of the game. I just moved the last vestiges of our file services off of NT, and I am now enjoying reduced maintenance time while I brace for the first SAMBA patent infringement lawsuit. I will lose "boy genius" status with my boss in a heartbeat when that hits the papers.
I don't car if Linux never gets more than 25% of the corporate server market-- as long as there still *is* a Linux, and as long as there remains enough incentive and legal freedom to allow the kernel hackers, the Gnu guys, the Samba team, and the Apache team to keep doing what they have been doing for us for all this time. (I am not leaving KDE/Gnome and others out on purpose, I just already feel like I am starting to ramble.) In a lot of ways I think the changes needed to make Linux suitable for mass consumption are in danger of making it unsuitable for people like me. But that is another story-- as long as the config files stay "human readable" and documented we will all be OK.
Hasn't President Fox's goal of getting 98% of the Mexican Population Online already been completed? The last time I looked about 98% of Mexico is in The United States and we have excellent connections to the Internet.
The Free Software Foundation has recently started to promote the idea that all software should be free. This includes open source, free software, and (currently) proprietary software. To clarify that statement, Microsoft keeps their source secret, and the FSF feels that the source should be made available for all to view, modify, and redistribute. This is a point that was touched upon in the Washington Post article.
I don't understand this point of view. I am very supportive of free software as a choice. I like GNU software. I prefer to use free and open source software (yes, I do recognise the distinction between the two). In my personal life I have been free of Microsoft for over a year, and mostly free from it in my career. However, I appreciate and respect the copyright that Microsoft (and other software companines) holds on their software.
By stating that "all software must be free, no matter who developed it," I believe that the FSF is shooting itself in the foot. By crippling itself with such extremism, the FSF takes away opportunities to convince people that by having a choice, they can make the choice to improve their futures by choosing free software. The FSF political tendencies seem to be closer to dictatorship rather than the common attack of communism. Even if a dictatorship is benevolent, it is still a dictatorship.
Free Software has come so far, and has improved the quality of our lives so much. Preaching the word of freedom while advocating the removal of freedoms is counterproductive. Can anyone give a rational explanation as to why the FSF and its advocates push this unintuitive line of thought?
The middle mind speaks!
I normally try to avoid posting total flamebait, and I would point out that I do not speak for the KDE project, but am an independent third party-:
Linux does have a viable alternative to MS - in the form of KDE, Konqueror, KMail, and KOffice.
de Icaza and GNOME raise plenty of publicity, but KDE is where the good stuff happens. In fact, by drawing attention away from KDE, de Icaza is really doing Microsoft a favour.
The longer NIH syndrome keeps KDE out of the American public eye, the more ground microsoft gains in America. KDE has pretty much taken over the Asian and european sector, and is considered a viable alternative to windows by many private companies and government institutions.
The past August 24, after the meeting between Vicente Fox and Steve Ballmer mentioned in the article, I submitted a badly worden article, made in the heat of the moment, which was obviously rejected by our dear editors here.
:
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n einternet/cei.asp?tema=19&subtema=81251
But with this article about Miguel, I think it can shed a little over the "commitment" made by MS with Mexico's government.
Uatu
P.S. Originally it had two articles, but I present just one of them.
------------
Microsoft will support e-Mexico project
I just read some news about the interview Steve Ballmer had with Mexico's President Vicente Fox about the e-Mexico project (in few words, to deploy an internet backbone around the country and install at least kiosks in small communities. Something like that.)
Well, my worst fears are coming true. Now I say this even when I make a living developing solutions mostly on Microsoft technologies and I haven't give that much thought about what exactly would be best, but I think what my country (or any developing one) needs is
1) Try to cover the most territory/town/etc. in your project
2) Try to save the most money trying to do it. On other words, do it cheaply.
3) Not to tie your project/future in a technology that may require further payments. (.NET, license rents, etc.)
4) Use technologies that can be cheaply replicated.
And going the MS way does not cover these last 3 points and can affect the first one because the rised costs.
About other cons, we have seen something similar in UK, where the websites needs the IE browser. (I can't loacet a Register article about it.)
I think that to deply an all-Linux solution needs more people, more training, etc. Also, I don't know what company would recommend an all-open-source solution (any ideas here?), but maybe we can do something "quick" giving some concesions, like maybe clients with Windows machines but the applications being made with open source tools (Apache, PHP, Java, etc.) so that the applications and the future of the project don't be tied to a company's (specially THIS company) whims.
Why not do something like China for that matter, who appears to be using Linux ?
On the other hand, it's better to wait until senator Helms retires, before he label Mexico as a communist country if we do that.
About the article, when you read it it sounds as if they'll actually spend those 60 million dollars, and when you do the math ($60,000,000 / 20,000 people == $3,000 dlls.)
I don't know what the training will cover. Anyway, in Mexico you can train someone VB, SQLServer, Access with less than that.
When I read about the "investment", I couldn't help but remember the local articles when X company makes a donation to an university and says they gave away thousand and thousand of dollars... if you use the price list that nobody pays anyway because on that scale you can use site licenses, etc.
Also, a book named "How to Lie with Statistics" comes to mind.
I know I sound "ungrateful", but I can't help it being so cynical.
Now a little "Ask Slashdot" here: What would you do if you think MS is not the best way to go. Or better: What would you do about this project.
Anyway, here are the articles and the translations.
http://www.elnorte.com/tecnologia/articulo/140950
and here (this is other paper from the same company) with small modifications
http://www.reforma.com/economiayfinanzas/articulo
Here's a translation of the article. Please note that Ballmer's comments are translated from the spanish article, so I don't know what he said exactly in english so it can (or better sai, I'm sure to) be different.
Microsoft will support e-Mexico project
Microsoft will invest on the certification of 20 thousand mexican developers who could create software technologies.
Ciudad de México, México.- Steve Ballmer, Microsoft President, announced today his company will do an investment of $58 million dollars through five years to support the Mexico's Government informatic
project e-Mexico.
Ballmer, after an interview with President Vicente Fox in the oficial house of Los Pinos, said the investment will be used to prepare 20 thousand people to develop software adequate to the mexican technological necessities . he indicated that for the company it's very important to invest in the country since it "will duplicate it's
profits in the technology industry the next years and Microsoft don't want to miss it."
Ballmer commented that the Fox's administrationalready has the necessary infrastructure to get the people of all social classes near the e-Mexico project. The project will try to extend high-level education around the people,
benefit the operation of the small and medium enterprises and to advance other aspects that favor the development of the country.
The Microsoft executive said that after his conversation with Fox his "optimism" toward the project has increased. He indicated that Microsoft's work will begin with the preparation of 3 thousand teachers, so that they could train other groups of education professionals.
Ballmer said that Mexico is a strategic market for the future of Microsoft,
especially for the development possibilities the country presents.
Microsoft began operations in Mexico 15 years ago, and is associated with Teléfonos de México, the biggest telecommunications company in the country in the portal T1msn.
----------
Other similar article from the same press conference:
http://servicios.t1msn.com.mx/noticias/computacio
(Yes, it's from Telmex & Microsoft's portal.)
Um, wow, $1 million, I guess that shows they really care about Linux. Fortunately, it's really $1 billion :-)
You mention that Linux is decent for browsing, spreadsheets, and word processing. OK, that's nice. But can you imagine if that's all a Mac could do and Apple was trying to market themselves as an alternative to Windows? They'd be laughed off the stage.
Niche programs put the Personal in Personal Computing. I want to run a Visio-like program. I want to run Quicken. Photoshop. Macromedia's products. Blockbuster games. Etc. And yes, I understand that alot of these have Linux equivalents, but damn it, I like Dreamweaver, Quicken, etc. So why should I have to go learn a new program because Linux isn't supported by these programs?
Don't get me wrong. I love Linux and have it installed at home. But for a lot that I want to do, I've got to turn my chair around and fire up my Windows PC. Until these "niche" programs are ported to Linux and there's a unified GUI to support them, well, Linux is not a viable desktop alternative for a "personal computer". IMHO.
"We're sorry, but the website you're trying to reach has been disconnected."
Ximian's Volunteer 'Army' Fights Microsoft on Open-Source Code
.NET is everywhere and everyone is dependent on MS technology.
.NET
.NET being ignored
So... Microsoft invents some arbitrary technology which it controls and will change at its whim. The Volunteer Army immediately says, "We must bring this technology to every computing platform!" The end result is that
When did "Fights" come to mean "collaborates with" or "becomes lackey of"?
This reeks of defeatism:
Microsoft are releasing
=> there is no possibility of
=> resistance is futile, we must assimilate
But still - face it: Open source and free software is hobbyists writing code for their own well-being, because they (we) think it's fun, and/or because we need the software, and feels good about letting other people use and change said software too.
A quick glance at the Membership List of the Apache Software Foundation shows that there are about 63 members of which about 40 represent one company or the other. The same can be said of most of the other major Open Source projects from Mozilla to Linux to Perl. Corporations are beginning to see the benefits of Open Source software and are contributing both a lot more developer resources than anyone would have believed possible just a few years ago.
Most people don't work just to feel the sheer excitement from using bleeding edge, most-powerful-ever-created tools. They have a task in hand and need it done with reasonable convenience. And get paid. If they can save a lot of money, or even a bit of money, by using Free (or just free) software, it's what they need and appreciate. Now GPL'd applications (it's application that matters) achieved a level of usability comparable to pricey commercial analogs. So, financially constrained users (and gov't is always financially constrained) naturally ponder if they can switch.
Of course, openness, peer-review, co-development, etc are also nice and important, but do not underestimate the money factor. If getting the source costed extra money (as it was back in 70's), most people would anyway accept the cheaper solution.
Computers make very fast, very accurate mistakes
Am I the only one who finds it funny that Ximian's army of good monkeys are fighting Microsoft's army of evil monkeys?
Yeah, it's true; Alan Cox recently benchmarked Nautilus (story on developer.gnome somewhere), and noticed a lot of baaaad things it was doing, luckily people *do* seem to be patching up the in-efficiences, so maybe (hopefully!) by gnome 2.0 (only 2 years late now!) Nautilus will be fast enough to use on a 233 without significant grief!
OOps, my mistake. Two different products... As different as 95 and NT!!
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Like Microsoft isnt using the same technology, like it innovates....
My oppinion is that Microsoft has a really nice userfriendly OS, for as far you dont run into problems or not understandeble error messages, even my grandma knows how to operate the machine once installed. No steep learning curve which Linux ofcourse has, i am running Gnome 1.4 at the moment, and i dont think its ready for the average user yet, but it has come a long way now i installed it again a since a year ago. Dont know about Ximian, But i think MS and Ximian Technology is just as inferior.
They both have there good sides and bad ofcourse.
FROM MY POINT OF VIEW:
Stallman's stance is not just about software, it's about the future of software innovation. Stallman knew that if source code were kept secret, innovation would suffer for it. I believe he was correct in that assessment.
The argument is not so different from the scientific community. If scientists started withholding their data, their abstracts, their papers, noone would be able to build upon prior knowledge and the inventive forward motion of the human race would hit a brick wall.
This is why he advocates making ALL software "free" (free meaning free to redistribute and modify). To ignore copyrighted software is to deny potential innovation. To keep the Windows 9x source code from the public is to deny them ideas, to deny them the ability to look at the code and create from it, improve it, build upon it. It's logical, though extreme.
Go Lakers!
Maybe I've got a slanted view working in London, in the city, but there aren't many companies using KDE/Linux over windows. Most of the companies using Linux are small web companies, that use it as a server, some developers in these companies use Linux desktops, but equal amounts use windows. The web developers + other people in these companies generally use windows.
eMexico? 98% of the population ONLINE? Try getting 98% of the population fed properly first.
After I have received the wisdom of good teaching, I will untiringly teach all people. - The Teachings of Buddha
Boy, stuff like this just makes me laugh. Have you actually USED KDE 2.x?
As a desktop, it BLOWS WINDOWS AWAY...
Multiple simultaneous desktops, multiple simultaneous users. Configuring menus in KDE is every bit as easy as configuring the Start menu in Windows. User customizable panel menus (like the start button, 'cept you can have more than one)
Move programs between desktops with two clicks. (right click -> move to -> desktop X) Lots of games.
Lots of other nice touches, such as "highlight an URL in ANY program. You immediately get the option to open it in your browser of choice."
Kmail is super easy to use and supports any number of e-mail accounts, and has an excellent filtering system. Address book support, etc.
I just migrated an 8-site corporation to Star Office from MS-Office - no complaints; its working great...
It's very stable, running for weeks on end w/o restarting X-Windows. (note: X-Windows, not operating system)
In short, what's not the decent offering?
Sheesh....
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
You forget that most software is developed in-house for non-software businesses, not for sale. It is simply an expense, not a potential source of income. Anything that can reduce that expense (using open-source tools, etc.) is good for the bottom line of that business.
An esoteric scratched itch:
Homeworld Map Maker Tool
During the half-hour conference, which took place earlier this year, he ran though this math with Fox: At a retail price of $209 for Windows and $440 for Office, it could cost the country as much as $3.25 billion just for license fees. "Our country needs that money for many other things," de Icaza said he told Fox. He said Fox seemed to be surprised by the cost analysis, but he made no promises.
What the hell? Fox was probably surprised because he couldn't believe that Miguel doesn't understand that an entire country is not going to pay retail.
Too many geeks damage their own cause with statements like this. It's always been a conundrum to me: how is it that many programmers are so smart when it comes to programming, but so absolutely brain-dead stupid when it comes to other things?
I mean, you're meeting with the President of your freakin' country and you're spouting absolute bullshit like that? Why not spend a little time and do some research on bulk rates that Microsoft provides? Then divide that by 2 because Microsoft is not going to let an entire country stop using Microsoft products.
And I'll bet he has absolutely no clue how much he damaged his credibility in that one meeting. If I was the President, and I had a "damn fool" who can't even understand bulk rates, why would I trust his opinion on anything else when it comes to an incredibly important decision like this?
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
"Who would you listen to?" de Icaza moaned to an office mate. "Just another Mexican? Or the richest man in the world?"
I'd listen to the Mexican. He'd probably have more to say that I'd be interested in hearing.
OTAH, I don't speak Spanish, so..
Feel the fear and do it anyway.
They usually do this to strand their compet, uh, partners into incompatible standards.
They did this to Aple with TrueType and the fuckin' alphabet. They did this to everybody that ever tried to get into bed with 'em.
What they don't outright streal, they screw the competition by "co-operating."
It may be my Canadian experience that is providing me with perspective here, and the Trudeau paraphrase, but when you're in bed with an elephant, you feel every twitch and rumble, no matter how benign the elephant might be.
And M$ is about as benign as the tobacco companies or the car companies before they were LEGISLATED into equipping cars with collapsible steering column so that drivers wouldn't get impaled in a crash.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
I hope everyone here keeps asking for proof of such claims, as Marcus did. If MS or Ximian or anyone does something illegal they should be punished for it, period. But tossing around unsubstantiated claims like this does no one any good, and only makes the open sourcers look foolish.
When i was in Mexico, all the internet cafes had computers decked out with everything Microsoft... like windows,IE,media player, MSN Messenger, etc...
Give your support for free software and go to http://www.e-mexico.gob.mx/comentarios/index.html and tell to use Linux or FreeBSD or whatever.
2. Ximian will make an excellent case for using open source software.
3. MS will stress to Fox that it is in Mexico's best interest not to be seen as using "a poor country using second rate software because they can't afford what the US uses", and will, if needed, give Fox whatever discount it takes to get the sale.
4. The /. crowd will bitch to each other endlessly about losing this one, and won't really understand why it happened.
Talk about a /. in-joke!
An esoteric scratched itch:
Homeworld Map Maker Tool
Hehe. Yeah. Even though I dual-boot with Windows98 and Mandrake 8.0, I use StarOffice instead of MS Office, because of the fact that I think it's much better to have something free than it is to pay 200 dollars for an upgrade version of a piece of software... Oh, well. And, it works the same, and you can export and import MS Office documents into it very easily. So, what's the point of using anything other than it? Oh, well... (Yeah, I forgot that StarOffice isn't exactly open-source, as much so as others, but it's a good example of non-MS software.)
But hey, I like all of the games that come with Linux and the drivers better anyway. They're less buggy because people that have the smarts can actually f_ck with the code and get it working perfectly for their needs. Of course, Microsoft has to have hundreds of minions working on one problem... And they take so long to get everything fixed because of the fact that they don't have the ability to decode their own obfuscated pieces of crap.
Long live open-source. Down with MicroSoft's monopoly on everything. I, for one, am getting sick of them trying to take over every market. I mean, I go to the bookstore, and I go over to the reference section. Guess what I find? Encarta Encyclopedias and Encarta dictionarys (both proudly brandishing the MicroSoft logo...). It's getting me physically sick, most of the time, 'cause I don't want to see them everywhere. Can't they just leave us alone? They disavow one of the main tenants of capitalism: The ability of us NOT to buy their products.
Oh, well, I rant this early in the morning.
...Need sleep...
What did Microsoft do with TrueType? I'm not familiar with this particular controversy...
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
"Who would you listen to, the richest man in the world, or just another Mexican?"
Gosh, I think I'd listen to the Mexican. When the richest Man in the world comes talking sweet and selling something, you can be sure it isn't in your best interest, it's in his.
Missing your points 1,2, and 3 are missing 99% of what people use a computer for.
My dad 1) Plays games, 2) Sets up education programs for my brothers in school 3) Does his taxes & finances.
The productivity packages are a joke right now. If you though windows crashed alot, use Koffice for 8 hours during your workday. TRY to use Star office for 8 hours a day.
About the mexican government, until they give there citizens freedoms and protection and basic rights i could care less if they're trying to save money on software that is just going to be used to fund some drug warlord or crackheads addiction.
Software as freedom is a joke. Freedom ISN'T. I'm free to use Windows, I'm free to use Linux. Linux isn't free, time isn't free, cost doesn't mean squat.
If thecost is several hours a day being a sysadmin to run my applications then that is more then powering up windows, running my applications and then going home and hitting the trails on my mountain bike.
You want to know why windows is less secure? because people running windows could care less about the virtual world of security. They want to get the job done and do something meaningfull with there time or they want to get the job done and have FUN doing it at the same time. Amiga, Mac's and Windows PC's all worked at that concept. They all had great games, great looking OS and plenty of support behind them.
Linux is just non existant for a desktop os.. and if you believe it is great right now, then you my friend are a die hard command line person and shouldn't be commenting on desktop usability.
free software is great, but i'd rather have VALUE in my software and Value in my VALUES rather then the ultra simplistic value that software has to be free.
Microsoft will win the rights to drive e-Mexico whitout doubt.
Vicente Fox its a neoliberal pig that its selling mexico and all the federal institucions to E.U. capitalist he (and is bad administaration) are making worse the situation of poor family's.
I think. Why in the last four mounts we in Mexico have received more visits of Steve Ballmer and other Microsoft executives than in other entire years? Surely Ballmer and Fox are slepping together and they at this point have an agree.
Mexico will pay to Microsoft millions of dollars.
e-Mexico will connect 98% of the population?
50% of the population here in Mexico its in extreme conditions of poorness
In other and in Mexico City we have a lot of administrative process that are running Linux.
Like the Cars registration.
The only way for mexico to make this project its the open source.
Miguel A.
Mexico City
What's a pike?
Seriously, though, you're out of your mind. Microsoft will never release anything it doesn't have 100% control over. They're total control freaks, that's their whole game. They can't control anything that gets released under the GPL.
And why would they release a Linux distribution when they can take any or all of the code from any of the BSD's, repackage it and call it Windows?
i find this comment quite funny:
.NET platform. i never realised that it incorporates a virtual machine and that one of the new features of c# is garbage collection and that com+ objects use containers to separate business logic from application logic. um, JAVA anyone?
It's "a cancer," Microsoft officials said. "An intellectual-property destroyer." Almost un-American.
two reasons. firstly, i know this guy who was invited to speak at redmond at some microsoft event or another. he mentioned to me that during his lecture he looked up to the back of the auditorium to see 4 remote control cameras focusing on himself and the audience and so on. 4 months later the exact functionality and methodology he was lecturing on was released within office XP!
secondly, i had my first real introduction to the
i'm not a total microsoft basher, i believe they have played a big role in bringing the desktop to non-geeks and i still believe their end-to-end useability is better for novice users than any flavour of linux+x that i have ever encoutered (although ximian is getting there quickly). but the fact that they accuse open source of being IP destroyers amuses me.
Still uncorrected is the fascination of this guy for the term "public domain".
upstarts such as de Icaza's Ximian Inc., as well as some of Microsoft's biggest rivals, are releasing free products into the public domain with increasing frequency.
That model holds that if you use open-source code, you have to put your enhancements in the public domain[...]
Every cent that is wasted on expensive technology is money that couldn't be used to hire competent teachers-- and teaching children is a LOT more than guiding them through point and click exercises on some candy colored computer.
So you want to keep those poor kids using PETs and Apple ][s? You want to keep those kids from learning how to create HTML pages while professors are complaining incoming freshmen don't know the basics of creating HTML documents? You claim they school system has not improved a whole lot despite expenditures for new software and equipment. I say it's that the school faculty have not taken full advantage of the power the new equipment provides for them and their students.
Sanity.html - Error 404 not found
"Super Genius"?
Ximian champions open source, but they're charging $49.95 for their software?
Of course Mexico won't pay retail. That's really not the point. The implementation cost is hardware + software + integration + training + electricity + communications infrastructure costs.
Eliminating the software license costs reduces the total cost by SOME amount. Even if MS practically gives the software away, Mexico would pay something. OK, so it's not 3 billion. Maybe 1 billion? Maybe 500 million or 250 million?
His point is bang on. Mexico could use that number (whatever it is) to do much more than line the pockets of a US company.
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
So what if you do the same for a Linux box? If Computer manuf's install and configure Linux, add some games and applications like Mp3 software, staroffice, adobe acrobat (unix) and all the little card games, etc., put on the kde or gnome xwindow manager and carefully configured no one would have a problem using it. The end user would have just as many problems installing any windows installation as they would Linux. Ever reinstall windows (or on a new hd) and find that it doesn't have the driver for your network card that came with the pc and you don't have a hard copy? What do you do? Especially if you have dsl/cable? You can't get on the net to find it...Linux it's built into the kernel or can be added as a module. My point being that if more pc's came bundled with Linux as the OS and some end user (fun) software and maybe a few games (Quake, Quake ii) more people would buy the pc bundled with linux (cost less maybe?).
Your normal user has never/will never install a windows product on their own, so sure it's easy to use, they've never had to install it!
I put RedHat on my Mom's machine and she loves it, she's never had to install it, it works with her hardware, and it doesn't crash =]
Metal Edge BBS! telnet://metaledge.darktech.org
[Begin sarcasm]
... who cares
Yeah... Ximian is really "fighting" Microsoft with alternatives like Mono... way to go...
[End sarcasm]
seriously
"Nobody is forcing you or anyone else to devote free time to developing Gnome. "
Is that really true? The free software foundation wants to ban non-free software. They _do_ want to force people to give their software away.
(please, spare me BS replies about free speech != free beer)
i am just a little curious here, what does the monkey in the yellow sphere represent?-and who designed it.
-- Note to self - 'Don't push that button'.
Hmmm.. I think we are underestimating the education system by limiting them to `ultra user friendly' computer platforms. People can learn too. Sandboxing a computer so that a complete idiot can use it isn't fair to the idiot, isn't fair to the admin that has to come clean up after them, and it isn't fair for the computer. Computers are complex devices, and should demand some initiative to use. I'm not saying that everyone should have to take 8 years of college courses to learn about solid-state electronics, mathematics in forms other than base-10 numbers, multiple programming languages, etc etc, but not everything should be handed to you on a platter, either. Yes computers can be intimidating to the uninitiated, but some basic knowledge can disspell that. I've been there. There was once a time when Windows 95 scared the bejesus out of me. It was nothing like my beloved Commodore Plus/4 that I outgrew a few years before. But i devoted a little time to studying and learning, and i got over it. The same followed suit with *nix. Now that I understand a bit more about what goes on behind the `pretty curtain' on the desktop, using a computer is much more rewarding, more efficient, and most of all, if i get myself into a bind, i can get out of it myself, instead of having to ask someone else to clean up my mess for me. I can't see anyone not wanting that....
-phaeton@alpha-star.org
Yea!! I like my new safe car with the collapsible steering wheel, anti-lock brakes, automatic seat belts, air bag. Oh wait a second, I don't have one, because I can't afford the damn things.
Why can't I buy a decently built car that does what I want, without all the other doodads that waste my money, and are only arguably safe? Do you know what it costs to repair a new car that has your beloved "crumple zones"? Let's see, what does that model cost this year? Hope you have full insurance coverage. Of course now your insurance premiums just doubled too.
Good thing that steering wheel didn't put you in the hospital, you're going to have to work overtime for a year to keep up the new costs. But, hey, you're safe. Of course, your young child in the passanger seat had his head sheered off by the airbag, damn adult size seat belts. But everone knows kids don't belong in the front seat anymore.
I was send a comentary about one week ago about eMexico, the proposal from Miguel de Icaza (ximian) to Mexico's president Vicente Fox and Microsoft. I dont know WHY my comentary was not posted. . . Whatever.
I'm a 25 year old mexican, i have started with computers 13 years ago and droped the school 4 years ago.
The problem in Mexico isn't to use or not to use open-source software, the problem on Mexico isn't Microsoft, the really big problem in Mexico is the incompetence of the educational stuff; from the department of education to teachers; to elemental education to highschool, even universities.
For our disgrace (remember? i'm mexican) the president and their people only wants popularity and problems like misery of 50% (or more) of the population are irrelevant.
poot me hard.
From the article: On a recent weekday, his mailbox received 104 new messages ... [one] writer accused him of being a "communist."
Now, I'm not sure exactly what the context was of that writer's letter, but I'm sick and tired of open source programmers being called "Communists" They are the exact opposite. Communism, as Karl Marx defined it, involves the government taking control of business and re-appropriating the economic goods that are produced. I believe that his exact words were (or was it Lenin's quote) "Take according to ability and give according to need" (that may not be exactly right, but you get the point)
Open source programming, on the other hand, allows nearly anyone with a computer to get the programs that they want, without the government ever becoming involved.
I would even contest that propriety software is more like communism, because it needs the government to protect its software.
So the next time anyone calls you a communist just for allowing other people to view your code and make changes to it, let them know the true definition of communism.
http://www.hackvan.com/etext/studies-find-rewards- often-no-motivator.html
If they keep playing with MS on the peer-to-peer/MONO front... they won't be around long enough to keep up this fight.
:/
NO ONE who has ever dealt with microsoft in a 'development-agreement' has evey walked away clean. NO ONE!
Fools
Well, open source has nothing in common with communism, free software on the other hand does.
Communism isn't at all about having a big controlling government directing it's citizens, communism is all about removing ownership. Communism is about giving people freedom from the control owners have over them. You should work to benefit the community (therefore the word communism), not to benefit yourself.
However, to make it possible you must have to make sure noone makes new stuff that they own (the public should own everything) so a small government is installed to make sure this don't happen.
The GPL also needs protection (and get it from the lawsystem). Without protection someone could take GPL'd software, modify is and own it.
The whole goal with the FSF is to make sure software shouldn't have owners (read the why-software-shouldn't-have-owners on www.fsf.org). Most of all the FSF (and RMS) would like to outlaw non-free software, this isn't possible and therefore they develop alternatives to try to make people stop using non-free software.
So yes, free software has much in common with communism (witch ofcause is a good thing).
Yeah, they may be political and not very flexible when it comes to their goals but I don't see a problem with that. And even if they do want to ban proprietary software so what? Some libertarians want to be able to buy whatever arms they see fit. I don't see the government allowing them to buy a truckful of LAW rockets anytime soon.
I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie
... there's the apparent enthusiasm with which the United States is throwing itself into the technological backwater, with laws like the DMCA, proposed UCITA legislation, and the de facto support of the Microsoft Monopoloy at the expense of virtually every other player in the industry (and this expense hits American firms far harder than, say, European firms which enjoy at least some measure of trade protection via the EU and national import regulations).
... or lie ... that one is not on American soil before accessing said software) it is rather apparent that we are already something of a technological backwater in certain areas ... indeed, our cryptography industry has never recovered from the business drain our (now largely reversed) cryptographic policies under Reagan, Bush, and early Clinton resulted in.
Given that there are already websites distributing software the rest of the world is allowed to use, but those in the US are not (thanks to the DMCA -- and one must certify
That being the case, those of us with IQ's greater than 160 would very much like to get the hell out of here! So the question remains: what options for similar immigration priveleges granted on the basis of intelligence are there in other countries?
thanks in advance...
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy