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Microsoft's Guide to Accepting Donated PCs
An anonymous reader links us to Microsoft's Guide to Accepting Donated Computers
for Your School, which contains humorous statements such as
"If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC. "
It's just an amusing little read that basically amounts to keeping the license
with the PC. Also neglects to mention the Naked PC discussed in this slashdot story.
...it'll be a good learning experience for the kids when they install a new OS...
MS is trying once again to takeover the minds of the children. Get them using only Windows in school and watch what they will ask for at home. It worked for Apple a long time ago, and now MS is trying to follow suit. In the words of an obscure tech, "Give me linux or give me an apple"
It is a legal requirement to keep the same OS? I'm not so sure....
"It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine. If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC."
What the hell sort of scare tactic is that? Last I checked when I purchased a computer I could install whatever I wanted to on it.
I can understand their point -- that specific PC is licensed with that specific copy of Windows. How many schools will read this and treat it as gospel, however? Hopefully, not many. As a gov't agency, our PC's are completely wiped prior to donation -- it is our policy. Keeping Win in the box does teach kids how to reboot, though...
...we are from the government - we are here to help...
"Hey, I want to donate this computer for the school's Beowulf cluster."
"Do you have the original disks that came with it?"
"Err, no."
"Sorry, I can't accept it."
Nothing for 6-digit uids?
What if the machine had its original OS upgraded? For example, the original machine came with the OEM Win95, but then was upgraded to Win98? Can't you donate the Win98 license along with the machine and its original license?
Also, what if the machine is donated with a non-MS operating system, or for that matter, no operating system at all?
We should write an alternative guide and provide these to schools!
Here's some ideas:
- You are under no obligation to accept any software, hardware or other parts provided.
- You may refuse any (software) licenses donated since you have not accepted them.
- You are free to reinstall any software to the machines provided that you aqcuire valid licenses for this software
- etc.
I it mandatory to ship an OS with a computer... but not the original... so... Linux/BSD (or anything like those) is the solution!
If this 'must keep originally installed OS' were a law (and I cannot for the life of me imagine that it is) there would be plenty of workarounds.
One would only need to find out what constitutes the PC. Is it the processor, the case, the hard drive? Whatever it is - change that so that you no longer have the original PC. Then install whatever you want on it.
I'm sure there are many more ways around such a thing.
.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
This is one of the most outrageous, egregious things I've ever seen Microsoft spew out of its venomous corporate lips. Please tell me this is not true. If it is a legal requirement, then the law must be changed.
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
...why change from OS X ?
Of course.
You may have this mobile phone for free, if you buy this 24 month subscription.
Run around asking 'why market OS/2 ? Can't we just sell Windows ?'
I really can't see a school turning down any donated PCs. It mentions the cost of integrating it with the current hardware, but I'm sure they could find a use for any old computer as long as it's not that slow. Red tape like this depresses me.
Ignorance kills, complacency kills, hatred kills, but usually not the ones guilty of them.
I don't want to come off as totally pro-Microsoft, but this is getting ridiculous. So I'm gonna waste some more Karma (hah, like I have any left to waste!) REMEMBER GUYS - EVERYBODY AT MICROSOFT WANTS TO KILL YOUR DOG AND RAPE YOUR WIFE! THEY'RE THE "EVIL EMPIRE" AND THEY HATE YOU. I heard that somebody at Microsoft gave somebody a displeasing look! OMG! TIME FOR A SLASHDOT POST!
This blurb from Microsoft is absurd, but in many cases the software on the machine is worth more than the hardware. Both the donor and the charity should be attentive to the value of the software. I assume you would get an extra tax break if you donate your unused software licenses with the computer. BTW: It is also good to take all of the pictures of nekkid ladies off the computer as well. You don't want your donation to be too educational.
A. It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine.
AH! That explains why there's no "Install Linux Boot Partition" Wizard in WinXP...
quote:
;)
If you feel it is in the best interest of your school to accept the donated PCs, make sure that the hardware donation includes the original operating system software. Keeping the operating system with the PC is not just a great benefit - it is a legal requirement.
Of course, in Microsoft's point-of-view, the only operating system for the PC is Windows, and cleaning the hard drive means you need to pirate a copy of Windows to bring it back to life.
BTW, Google has automatic spelling correction now. Rejected slashdot submission, go figure
Q. How does the PC owner transfer their license rights for the operating system?
A. The GPL can be found here.
Q. What if the donor can't find the backup CDs, End-Use License Agreement, End-User manual and the Certificate of Authenticity? Can they still donate the PC and operating system?
A. It can be downloaded from here
- [grunby]
A: Keeping the original parts with the vehicle is not just a great benefit - it is a legal requirement. Use of non-GM parts (often referred to as "deadly aftermarket assault parts") or hiring non-GM-certified mechanics will not only void your warranty, but may result in prosecution, injury, or death.
If you think about using aftermarket assault parts, think again -- for the kids.
A. Well of course you can silly. Since Windows will be the only OS that we will accept into our generous Education initiatives, we will give you special price just %10 cheaper then a home license. But even better than that, as stated above you might need to purchase some additional hardware to be compatible with you current network. Don't fear though we know the perfect place to get it.
And if that is not a deal after spending $400 on new equipment $200 on a new license we will give you at a small fee $100/hr, a Technician whom is fully qualified and just out of the MSCE education, whom will gladly train you and your staff AFTER you inspect all of the donated computers.
"Keeping the operating system with the PC is not just a great benefit - it is a legal requirement."
That sounds nice and all but they fail to describe the great benefits. If they did it would sound something like:
It will crash all the time.
It will be insecure and probably allow outsiders access to your network.
You will need to upgrade every X amount of years, just because we say so.
You will need to download patches every week, or else deal with viruses and trojans.
I like my PC's how I like my women - NAKED!
If you get one that used to have windows on it, you have to reinstall windows back on it! No matter if you just use the drive for storage!
Something that looks like the M$ page, except it would describe how easy it is to take the donated computers, ditch the OS, and install Linux.
I'm still laughing about www.wehavethewayin.com, although it's only half as funny as the site it emulates www.wehavethewayout.com
Keeping the OS with the machine is the same thing as keeping those tags matresses. They are required to be on there if you are a company that sells matresses, but once an individual buys the matress, they can do whatever they like to the tag. It's their property at that point.
If they then give away or donate the matress, the lack of the tag really doesn't matter.
I'm really curious what law they are referring to when they saw "legal requirement". If they're going to say stuff like that, I'd like to see where it was written. Anyone can just say that something is "legally required". I can say it's "legally required" to mod all my posts up. That don't make it true, tho.
psmylie's dictionary: Godzillion (noun) Any number large enough to destroy Tokyo
This might be a bit offtopic, but while we're talking about Windows "licenses":
If I were to sell or donate my PC to someone else and that PC has XP installed (which I activated using my name), what must I do to dissociate my name from that activated copy/serial number?
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
I've done work for about half a dozen schools (junior highs and high schools) that have quite substantial commitments to computers in the classroom.
;-)
In my experience, whenever donated computers arrive, that's all that arrives. I've never seen a computer arrive with the documentation that probably accompanied it when it was purchased by the donating company. All you get is the computer and associated peripherals if you're lucky (often they forget to send mice).
At one school, they have about 120 donated PCs, and I think there is maybe half a dozen valid Windows licenses in the whole place. Of course, there are numerous burned copies too, which makes imaging these machines really easy (thank you Norton Ghost).
I find it rather surprising that some enterprising person/persons haven't started to produce an educational Linux distribution... just pile on a lot of idiot proofing
I also found this statement hung in the air like a brick. It cannot be a legal requirement to include the "pre-installed" OS with the computer. Since, like a lot of people here, the first I do with a new box is wipe it and configure it the way I want it.
When donating a box, I would also wipe it beforehand, and make sure that all the OS materials (backup CD's, documentation, etc.) went with it. It's really up to the receiving institution to do something with it.
What this seems to suggest is that it's bound by law that you cannot modify a PC from its factory state.
"Stop whining!" - Arnold, as Mr. Kimble
What about if you completely upgrade a machine from one spec to another but keep the OEM licence that came with it, what does that mean?
confused and worried... mind you having worked as part time tech support in education, they dont care if they have licences.
Burt "Out of my mind back in 5 minutes"
"If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC."
If a box were been donated without hard drive and then without OS, would MS give the school a Windows license free of charge? I seriously doubt.
Actually, it didn't work for Apple. They are still stuck in the education market, and that has not translated into any measurable difference in market penetration beyond their core graphics constituents.
Hey, Windows users, there is no such thing as "forward" slash, there is only slash and backslash.
From the archived NakedPC page:
"Acquire software from Authorized Microsoft OEM Product Distributors"
So, can I get Linux from my Authorized Microsoft OEM Product Distributor?
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
Microsoft recommends that educational institutions only accept computer donations that are accompanied by proper operating system documentation. If the donor cannot provide this documentation, it is recommended that you decline the donated PC(s).
I would wise-crack about this, but there's no need to
8^)
We dance to all the wrong songs.
--Refused.
When you buy a MS OS you are forbidden to pass it to others.
So when you give away you PC away how do you transger the OS license?
------I can please only one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either.------
Your friendly sales person will tell you how much.
and remember, if you haven't been sending enough, penalties may apply.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
All in all, this isn't bad advice. They are telling schools to cover their a$$. I don't like it, but I would make the same recomendations. I've tried to sell linux to folks, but they don't have the time nor know-how to make what they see is a huge change away from mac or windows.
Believe nothing -- Buddha
That's the gist of this whole thing.
People, out of their good nature, give computers to schools to help educate children.
Microsoft lie to the schools to try to stop them accepting generous gifts that might make a tiny dent in their massive profits. This makes me so mad.
It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine. If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC.
Is this true? Even for Microsoft operating systems? They're saying it's illegal to remove an OS from a computer, any computer? F*ck*ng w**kers.
PC owners have to transfer their license rights to the operating system to your school along with the PC. They may do so as specified in their End-User License Agreement (received at the time of purchase) as part of a permanent sale or transfer of the PC.
Listen Microsoft. You've made it very difficult so that I, as a PC purchaser, can buy a new PC without buying a Microsoft OS. You know that. So, 99% of computers that are donated to schools are likely to have a legitimate, paid for, Microsoft OS on them. You bunch of complete t*ss*rs.
The following should be included with the donation of the PC.
Why? I'll tell you why! To make it difficult for people to donate PCs to schools, that's why. I ***king hate those money grabbing, selfish, **bhe*ds at Microsoft.
Microsoft recommends that educational institutions only accept computer donations that are accompanied by proper operating system documentation. If the donor cannot provide this documentation, it is recommended that you decline the donated PC(s).
Why? So Microsoft can profit at the expense of the education of our children? You absolute ****ing *i*si*ng i*i*tic bunch of *uc*ing a**eh*les! *an** *a*s*** of the *i*** *rd***! You ****p** **s** **e*s*s!!!
Is microsoft making this part of their EULA? If I have an old PC that had Win95 installed 7 years ago, but since then has been replaced by Linux, and has served as my firewall and gateway for the past 5 years, what would happen if I donated this machine as is as the firewall for my local Leukemia Society? Can MS enforce this? Will they be reminding other organizations that there machines must have Windows on them? Will they not accept my donation unless it has windows?
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
What I understand by reading this, is when donating a PC
currently running Linux I previously bought with Windows
pre-installed I'm violating the law (at least the American
law). Correct me if I'm wrong?
Mike Machuidel
It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine.
So anyone that has bought a machine from an OEM and wipes the drive is breaking the law?
"And like that
All you people ever do is bitch.
Microsoft is talking about wintel computers. For example if I donate a Dell to a school, 99.9% of the time I bought it with Windows preinstalled, and this lets them know that it should come with an OS.
So the 00.1% that came preinstalled with another OS, they are not concerned about this because it is such a low number. Also why would anyone donate a home-built machine since you can always swap out parts and keep it alive forever.
Don't you guys get it, EVERYONE uses Windows. Get over it. Microsoft sucks, I totally agree and I always fight my spyware XP with a firewall, but moving to Linux as my Desktop OS will never happen. Trust me, I have tried many times, but it is not worth the pain and suffering. MacOS X is the only usable unix based desktop solution, and I hate Apple too.
I think they should use Windows in schools since that is what 99.9% of the kids will use at home and a a job later in life. Plus there is a lot of educational software avaialbe. Iam glad they are gettign away from Kacs in School, since they most likely will never use them later in life.
Go ahead, flame away.
Anyway, who cares? If the OS license is somehow wrong or expired, then wouldn't this be an opportunity for the linux horde to march in? I don't see why this is bad.
sulli
RTFJ.
Given: "It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine. If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC."
At what point in the nearly constant component part upgrade cycle my machines go thru, does the original machine cease to be? I have boxes that have only the case as the only remaining part of the original unit, and I have a (mostly) Dell thats in a generic case.
What constitutes a PC?
It will be very wise if EFF will issue its own version of guide and try to distribute it to schools as wide as possible...
If I build my own PC and install Windows on it, I can give it to someone else and keep the copy of Windows as long as I remove it from the PC. This article implies that it is illegal for me to keep my copy of Windows if even if I give away the PC without it. If I install Linux, I can keep my copy and give away the PC with the OS still installed. Their statement is only true for pre-installed Windows (i.e. Dell installed it) where the license is tied to the particular PC.
All copies of the software on original disk or CD, including back-up and/or recovery materials
Manuals and printed materials
End-User License Agreement
Certificate(s) of Authenticity
This is misleading, and encourages institutions to only accept computers where these items all exist (i.e. MS operating systems). Such is not necessarily the case if, say for example, I installed Linux over the Internet.
Yes, once the machine and installed operating system is transferred to your school or institution you own the PC and the licensed software. You can upgrade via Microsoft Academic Licensing Programs...
Oddly, they neglect to mention that this also only applies to Microsoft software. What if the donated computer is a Mac?
These sorts of things are like Halloween documents that MS makes public INTENTIONALLY! You'd think they'd raise some eyebrows at the DOJ.
... "Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the w
Remember, Licenses need to be accepted. Any change in ownership does not automatically mean the receivingparty accepts Microsofts terms. Forcing this to the receiving party can never be upheld in court since when the receiving party does not accept the license, there is no agreement between microsoft and the receiving party. It also means the receiving party cannot use the particular instance of the software of course.
Also, statements like this are on the edgde of criminality. Since Microsoft's website upholds a certain level of authority, customers are thus officially receiving adivisories by microsoft. Where I live, this sort of advice (which is untrue in my country, and unclear at least), statements like these are misleading, which is an offense under the court that governs the laws here.
In other words, I could sue MS for publishing this advice.
what happens when you have replaced every single component in a pc, but you did it gradually, does the OEM licence not count anymore then??
Burt "Out of my mind back in 5 minutes"
Now that I've calmed down, I've had an idea.
Why don't we set up a web site which tells schools how to accept donated PCs, but specify that if it does not come with all the necessary licences, the cheapest thing to do would be to install linux and free open source software packages on it?
Say that Microsoft might take legal action against you if you don't have the licences, so it's safer to install non-Microsoft software?
So if I bought Win95 and then a Win98 upgrade, does MS expect me to wipe the machine, re-install Win95 and then give it to them? Or would it be OK as long as I provided them with both the original media and the 98 upgrade media? (I suppose in a sense the original OS is still there since upgraded).
And how exactly are they going to verify that the OS provided is the "original OS"? If I wipe the drive and install a full copy of 98 or Win2k how are you going to know that that wasn't the original?
A. It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine. If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC.
*sigh* More Microsoft FUD. I don't remember that requirement being stated when I bought any PCs, I wouldn't have bought them if it was, and I doubt I'm bound by it now.
Let's face it, 50% of the pre-installed software doesn't last 5 minutes after I get it home (AOL, etc.) And after about 2 years, I've usually removed it all anyway and upgraded. I don't keep original install disks after that, they just clutter up the place. How could MS infringe on my right to use the computer in the very reasonable manner, when they themselves sell every kind of software updrade immaginable?
Sure, I can't go buy a copy of Windows XP, install it, then "donate" the computer but keep my purchase to install again. But that's not what MS is saying here. This article is just another bad PR story waiting to trip MS up. What are those guys thinking? Not much, is my guess.
If you want to donate a PC, my recomendation would be to erase the HD(s), then remove all the drives from the system. Then donate the parts to a school. Tell them it's parts, and you don't know where they came from. If the teachers can't put it back together, then I bet the students can.
Q. May I date just anyone?
i t.html] for more information on finding out if you are legally married.
A. No, anybody you date must have a valid license to drive in your state. If the person does not come with a license then you must not date them. It's not just a convenience that they have a license - It's legally required
Q. Do I need the person's parent's permission?
A. Yes, if the person you are dating has parents then it is legally required that you receive their clothing, space and all belongings given to that person by their parents.
Q. Can I marry a person
A. That depends on whether you were married in the MS (c) Window of Bliss (tm) temple. If you were not then you are probably not legitimately married. Please click here [http://legally_married.microsoft.com/are_you_leg
It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine.
Wow. I mean, wow. I can't believe they actually said that with a straight face. (Then again, maybe they didn't.) Using this logic, I could not donate my little e-machine to a school because it has Linux on it, and not Windows 98, which was the pre-installed OS.
from the naked pc page - "Mention that preinstalling the operating system on the new PC saves considerable time, expense and trouble."
ohh really. thats strange, i didnt know they hyped installing windows as "considerably time consuming, expensive, and troublesome!"
MS is letting these groups know that, if they are planning to use whatever OS is on the machine when they receive the donation (and they probably are), then they should make sure they are getting the license for that OS. This is the kind of thing that businesses are very aware of, but the same isn't true of non-profits, schools, etc.
Yes, MS is trying to sell more copies of Windows, but it's also trying to keep good people from unknowingly breaking the law because of a sloppy donation.
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
If you read the question the answer is associated to: "What does the donor need to do to donate a PC with the operating system?" They are saying that it is necessary to transfer your license rights... /. covered an article on this some months ago. In order to keep the schools butts out of a sling they MUST have the licenses when they are donated machines with windows already installed on them or they will have MS lawyers on them fast as hell.
That's not unreasonable, and
I donated a PC to a school once, and was damned sure to put Linux on it.
Gates, you can keep your OS. I don't want it and I don't need it.
Useless opinions, worthless observations, and more!
1. Install Linux on the computer.
2. Find that cardboard license that entitles you to use Windows on the PC.
3. Find the CD for Windows that came with the PC.
4. Give the school the Linux PC with the Microsoft OS CD. That way they can choose to install the Microsoft OS or not. If Microsoft's product is the best thing, the school theoretically install Windows from their own free will.
Q. Why should a donor include the operating system with their PC donation?
A. It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine. If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC.
Ok, that sounds pretty dubious, but let's accept it for the sake of argument. Now on to the contradiction:
Q. Can I upgrade the operating system on a donated machine?
A. Yes, once the machine and installed operating system is transferred to your school or institution you own the PC and the licensed software. You can upgrade via Microsoft Academic Licensing Programs: Microsoft School Agreement Subscription, Microsoft Campus Agreement Subscription, Microsoft Academic Open or Microsoft Academic Select. Contact your preferred Microsoft Authorized Education Reseller for details.
OK, so which is it? Does the school license the software on the used PC, or do they own it?
If they own it, what was the status of ownership by the donor, prior to the donation? Did the owner own it? If he owned it, then he does not have to transfer it with the PC, since it is his property to do with as he sees fit. If he did not own it, how come the school becomes the owner when they accept transfer of the license from the donor? Does this mean we can "launder" EULA's by donating each other the PCs we wish to buy? Seems like receiving a donated OS with a donated PC is the way to own the OS instead of just becoming a licensee.
Edith Keeler Must Die
That's for part two. ;)
It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine. If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC.
Which law states this? A state law? Federal law? Decree of the UN?
What if I donate PCs that I built myself without an OS "installed"?
A "legal requirement" sounds very much like a scare tactic. If anything, you'd think they'd want the opposite - they'd want a school to get a bunch of PCs, but then REPURCHASE more Windows licenses 'just to be sure', upping MS' sales.
They pretty much get a sale for every PC in the US now anyway. I'd be interested to know what their license sales are per year vs the number of PCs sold that year. I've a hunch Windows license sales may be higher than PC sales.
creation science book
Yes, and the only OS you ever can use is Windows.
Oh, yes, if you are a lawyer, you can understand that we mean this only if you got the other OS illegaly.
I don't think that such vague statements are accidental - they can really hurt.
...the kids' heads will explode if they discover there are any such things as alternate operating systems anyway. There are probably about three people in a school of 500 kids that have heard of anything but MS or Apple, and they're all busy stealing mouseballs and disabling Cyberwatch.
When I worked for the Navy we would only give PC's to schools once their disks had been completely erased. There was no protocol for handing down software either. All software HAD to be destroyed by CUTTING the media it came on.
I suppose that M$ would not approve of the fact that schools bought licenses of windows to run on boxes that would cost less off the shelf than a windows license...
"It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine"
"The following should be included with the donation of the PC.
All copies of the software on original disk or CD, including back-up and/or recovery materials"
So does this mean that in the event of your PC going horribly wrong (I mean it never happens to windows, but just say it did...) you might have to re-format and use your backup cd. in the time that you have no OS on your pc (because you just formatted the HD duh!) you are liable to be *BUSTED* by the powers that be?
I'm sorry, if my educational institution is site licensed for all the MS OS's we use, I'll take any machine thats useful, OEM OS with it or not.
How much money do you have to waste 5 years in court?
Sounds good to me. MS is FORCING you to purchase a cheaper upgrade in lieu of just buying a more expensive non upgrade version should you want one.
Hold on.. so Windows sold on Ebay (e.g. transferring your licence to another user) gets Microsoft pissed enough to start demanding they be pulled off the listings, but giving your Windows copy to schools (e.g. transferring your licence to another user) is fine by them? Am I missing something?
slashdot!=valid HTML
Microsoft recommends that educational institutions only accept computer donations that are accompanied by proper operating system documentation. If the donor cannot provide this documentation, it is recommended that you decline the donated PC(s).
Says:
We like the idea of you donating, but we really don't want to donate ourselves. We do care, we really do. But remember an undocumented computer is worse than no computer.
-Sean
From the posts on here, I would say a YES :)
:) Dont licenses have to be CLEAR AND UNDERSTANDABLE? They obviously arnt meant for users to understand, lawyers only :D
It is open to many ways of interpreting this. MS's way, the lawyers way, the users way, the courts final say
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
"It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine"
What that says is that, according to the license aggreement, you can NEVER install over the OS on your machine. Have Windows 98, but want to upgrade to Win 2K? Buy a new computer, can't install it on your old one. Wrong, wrong, wrong... You bought the computer, you can do whatever you like with it. That's the law!
Now, under the license agreement and current law, it would be, ahem, illegal to take that Windows 98 and install it on another computer... but that's not what they're talking about here. They're saying you can't ever throw away the original OS disks and install a nice, free piece of software like Linux or whatever else you want (of course, they might make an exception if you use a nice new shiny OS from MS, how generous of them). This is just more FUD from Microsoft.
(Sounds like they can take a page from the RIAA's stance on the legality of making MP3's off of CD's you've bought and paid for)
Using donated computers in the schools is a good-spirited idea, but it turns out it's not usually the most cost-effective way to get computing to the kids. My friends who have worked on the Yorktown High School LTSP project say that the cost of maintaining old PC's ends up being much greater than just getting thin clients for LTSP. (Those thin clients are really where LTSP saves money: Windoze requires overweight clients.) They say that by getting a set of homogenous thin clients they can maintain the hardware with a minimum of effort. The thin clients run longer because they have fewer parts, and they cost less to replace if they do break down. Finally, the expertise to maintain them is easier to obtain: once you know the quirks of one of the thin clients, you know them all.
Miko O'Sullivan
Is there the possibility of forming a lawsuit against Microsoft for all the FUD they spread?
Every time I see this stuff, I can feel the blood pulsing in my veins and arteries; certainly that cannot be healthy.
One of the things to include is the "Illegal Operation" error message. I have yet to find what law has been broken, or anything that might help me to find it.
I'm not trying to be funny. I don't know what laws would apply to this or how damages could be
determined, but certainly this kind of dishonesty must be illegal.
I'm further dismayed by this insofar as Microsoft is regarded as an exemplar of capitalism. I thought capitalism rewarded the ability to produce and honestly sell, not the ability to steal and defraud.
I am a landlord, and I own a two-family house. Recently online I found a guide written by a lawyer on how to be a landlord in my state. It is very well written, and one of the ideas that I got was this,
If you say that something is the law, and it isn't, the tenant can sue you for treble damages.
If you don't de-lead your house, and you let children under six live there, and you say to the tenant, "Oh, I'm exempt from de-leading because of this special provision / grandfather clause", then the tenant can sue you for misrepresenting the law.
So, I'm tempted to wonder if Microsoft can legally dole out legal advise that is prima facie incorrect and misleading. I would suggest the Microsoft's legal department take a look at the FUD for liability purposes.
If it can happen to me, it should be able to happen to Microsoft.
No, no, no. This is not a sig.
Microsoft certainly seems more evil when they rattle their sabres at schools and charities than when their target is merely businesses. But really, schools have the same responsibility to understand, assert, and protect their rights -- and to abide by the law -- that for-profit corporations do.
/. :)
Any school board that falls prey to misinformation or scare tactics designed to increase software license sales must, in part, blame itself. If a school principal doesn't understand whether he can legally accept a donated PC, then is there a resource -- a CIO of sorts at the board of education or perhaps a higher level -- to whom he can turn? Should the principal not be doing this instead of relying Microsoft's (obviously slanted) advice? And should the CIO (or counterpart) not be proactively issuing policies about things like accepting donated PCs?
Bring it up at your next PTA meeting...it's probably more effective than flaming MS on
Please donate your spare CPU cycles to help fight cancer and other diseases
All this really is about is the carrot and the stick. If you take the carrot (Purchase their Volume License package for richer schools only!), then you don't have to worry about them whacking you with the stick! (The big bad BSA --Ooooh.)
People give all kinds of things to schools in all sorts of conditions. Microsoft is trying to get control of this process for their own profit at the expense of others (again)!
Microsoft loves control of this process for obvious reasons. There are licenses to be sold, and Linux or other free alternatives to be denied. If they call the ground rules, winning the fight is a lot easier.
For things like donated hardware, control of the process should be with those handling the stuff period. After all they are doing the work, they should be able to enjoy the reward. If this stuff is so valuable why not set up a few M$ Recycling centers?
There are lots of creative ways to use computers if you combine energetic students a net connection and a supply of hardware. Who knows what they will build? I for one am curious to see what it might be.
Following the advice in this "guide" (read nicely spun veiled threat!) they will be building exactly what Microsoft wants them to. Licensed profitable for Microsoft PCs. God forbid that these young bright childeren figure out what they could make that old hardware do with say BSD or Linux.
The whole thing is kind of silly really if you think about it some more. The schools do all the work, M$ does nothing yet makes more over time than the machines are worth with the volume contract. (Good for M$, but bad in general for the school.)
They do their readers a disservice by not mentioning the free alternatives avaliable. It is not just about their licenses, it is about free alternatives too. A school that reads this document probably has or is considering the volume license. By including that "legal requirement" (Which I seriously doubt is any sort of requirement at all) they marginalize free alternatives.
What scares them the most is that combination of bright students and the net connection. For the cost of the internet access, they can make all that hardware do good things. Kind of like that volume license without all the hassle. Since most schools are trying to spend a little as they can this option would seem attractive --provided they are aware of it.
Notice how this "guide" is structured to lead the user away from open alternatives and toward the pay per compute program.
This could use a response of sorts from the FSF or EFF pointing out the alternatives. You can bet that the educational resellers mentioned at the bottom are not going to be doing it. After all, they have a number to meet each quarter to get their MicroPerk of the month or whatever...
Blogging because I can...
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The pilot issued a distress call citing engine trouble.
Even if the specific software you received was actually free (because you're a CS student), your school is still almost certainly paying the Microsoft fee so that the general student population can get those titles for "free". In other words, there's no such thing as a free lunch.
Since you've got their software on your computer, microsoft has already "won you over". If I were you, I wouldn't put any of their crap on my hard drive unless you were forced to by a class.
Grumble, Grumble
IANAL
However, I cannot see how donating a naked PC can be illegal.
If a school says it cannot accept your PC because it is illegal, MS is implying you are a criminal and you should seek legal advice!
Consider the following:
1) Take a machine install windows on it.
2) Take machine of #1 apart, evenly divide parts into two piles.
3) Put enough extra parts into each pile to make a complete machine.
4) Reassemble the 2 machines.
Now, which machine is the origional one? The one that got the hard drive, but not the processor? The one that got the floppy? Or have you just created 2 liscenses since each machine has equal claim to being the origional machine. This posture on the part of M$ is legally dubious, counter-productive and a total crock.
I have a question. A couple of years ago I purchased a computer with Windows NT preinstalled, and the first thing I did was reformat the hard drive and install Linux instead. I have purchased a new computer, and I would like to donate my old machine to a local high school's computer club.
I noticed on your website (http://www.microsoft.com/education/?id=DonatedCom puters) that you state,
"It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain
with a machine for the life of the machine. If a company or individual
donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating
system that was installed on the PC."
I do not even have the backup disks that came with my computer. I deleted Windows as soon as I received the machine, implicitly rejecting your EULA. Moreover, the computer club wishes to run Linux on this machine.
Therefore, can I not donate the machine that I own to the computer club? As far as I can reason, by completely removing Windows from it and destroying the associated documentation I have removed any Microsoft-related control over this machine.
Please clarify this for me.
Sincerely,
Brian Poi
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
I seem to require Microsoft EULA's forbidding sale, donation, or otherwise transfer of licenses to Microsoft software without express written permission from Microsoft.
I guess this means that if I want to give a PC away, I have to write Bill Gates a letter asking him mother-may-I.
Anyway, I think it's BS, and all the more reason why schools (and everyone else) should embrace Linux or BSD. It builds their brains, too!
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
You weren't going to give the machine with all of your data to the charity anyway, we're you?
Yes...I am a rocket scientist.
Making guidelines that make sure people know that they have to buy the latest and greatest OS from Microsoft in addition to that donated PC that came with Windows 95 is just another indication that something bad is going on in Redmond. Think about it.
1. Product activation prevents people from installing office and Windows XP on multiple computers in the same household.
2. Microsoft is now telling chartitables that if they want the latest OS they need to buy it, cause it probably did not come with the PC that was donated.
3. Microsoft is forcing users to upgrade to Office XP, by taking away the upgrade price if they don't upgrade by a certain time.
This all does not bode well.
Something else that is interesting. Did you know that Microsoft does not pay ANY dividends to it's shareholders? What this means is that they don't have to put their money where their mouth is. They can claim they made 11 billion dollars last quarter and don't need to send out divident checks to back that claim up.
All this evidence together makes you really think those boys in Redmond are COOKING THE BOOKS bigtime, and they're hurting real bad.
I expect at this time next year to see Bill Gates sitting in front of Congress pleading the fifth.
Here comes Enron all over gain.....
If I delete the Windows OS from the HD and burn the original disks and install Linux, have I done something illegal? I don't think so. So this seems misleading or worse illegal.
Cool pics though.
The operating system has far more usefulness to the PC than the tag to the matress.
It's more like the workforce to the factory, I think. So MS is really just saying, as Schindler told the Nazi, "You want me to run the factory, you have to give me THOSE jewish workers!"
Of course we all know what then happened to Schindler's business...
-datastew
F*ck*ng = Fucking
w**kers = wankers (not a bad word)
t*ss*rs = tossers (not a bad word)
***king = fucking
**bhe*ds = nubheads
****ing = fucking
*i*si*ng = pilsiing
i*i*tic = idiotic (not a bad word)
*uc*ing = fucking
a**eh*les = arseholes
*an** = canoe
*a*s*** = carshed
*i*** = diddly
*rd*** = orders
****p** = crapped
**s** = nosex
**e*s*s = breasts
pubjames said:
People, out of their good nature, give computers to schools to help educate children.
Microsoft lie to the schools to try to stop them accepting generous gifts that might make a tiny dent in their massive profits. This makes me so mad.
It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine. If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC.
Is this true? Even for Microsoft operating systems? They're saying it's illegal to remove an OS from a computer, any computer? F*ck*ng w**kers.
PC owners have to transfer their license rights to the operating system to your school along with the PC. They may do so as specified in their End-User License Agreement (received at the time of purchase) as part of a permanent sale or transfer of the PC.
Listen Microsoft. You've made it very difficult so that I, as a PC purchaser, can buy a new PC without buying a Microsoft OS. You know that. So, 99% of computers that are donated to schools are likely to have a legitimate, paid for, Microsoft OS on them. You bunch of complete t*ss*rs.
The following should be included with the donation of the PC.
Why? I'll tell you why! To make it difficult for people to donate PCs to schools, that's why. I ***king hate those money grabbing, selfish, **bhe*ds at Microsoft.
Microsoft recommends that educational institutions only accept computer donations that are accompanied by proper operating system documentation. If the donor cannot provide this documentation, it is recommended that you decline the donated PC(s).
Why? So Microsoft can profit at the expense of the education of our children? You absolute ****ing *i*si*ng i*i*tic bunch of *uc*ing a**eh*les! *an** *a*s*** of the *i*** *rd***! You ****p** **s** **e*s*s!!!
Grumble, Grumble
What would it take to set up a resource to educate schools about using Linux and accepting Naked PC's?
A place were those in the know (us) can access solid facts, pointers etc all ready made for the schools? A way in..
We sit hear and talk about the FUD but how many of us have taken the time to talk to their local school districts, tell them that Microsoft is not the answer and the way out is from an 5th story window overlooking a 300' cliff ending in jagged rocks and pounding surf?
Come on Slashdot community lets put together some ideas and get them out there!!!
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
Oh sure, scare the cash strapped schools into spending more money on the computers and the operating systems and less money on the actual education of our children.
I'll concede that Microsoft may have a point on any system that comes pre-loaded with an OEM copy of Windows. The vendors get a price break for buying this version of Windows because of that agreement...so there I'll concede the point.
But...
What about systems that are donated from people who build thier own computers from components? They can't legally buy a copy of Windows in OEM format and therefore must buy retail box. A retail box has no attachments to any one computer and in my opinion doesn't qualify. In fact I think it has been said at one time by Microsoft (sorry, can't remember what E-Zine that was) that a retail box package of software can stay with the owner and not the machine as long as the machine no longer has the software installed on it. This goes for OS or Application.
Also as so many of us here are avid *nix users of one flavor or another, there is always the case of GPL. That can be copied legaly...heck the GPL actively permits the free download and copying of software. This makes that whole "Legal" thing that Microsoft wrote in thier little "friendly guide" a load of codswollop.
One would think that they would have the opposite stratigy of saying that accepting the computer with the license would be "bad" so they can charge even more for addig a few machines to the local academic site license.
Fear, Uncertanity, Doubt...I hate sequels
Phoenix
-- Wiccan Army, 13th Airborne Division "We will not fly silently into the night"
Interesting that the article starts with 3 bullet points about things you should be concerned about and then launches into a table of Q & A that has pretty much nothing to do with the bullet points....
Does Slashdot only carry atricles about Windows and Microsoft .There are atleast 3 today.Even +4 comments are beginning to sound repetitive.
Guys get sensible.
There are more good things to discuss than these.
If theres a internal leak at Microsoft its news here. If theres an article somewhere discussing them its news here. To a point its good but after a point it just looks like a unionist discussion forum..
Since you can throw away the original disks if you install say, Linux, wouldn't this document be misleading in a legal sense and thus be illegal?
I was considering donating a little AMD k6/2 350 to my school installed with redhat or debian on it. The school computer lab will take it but they would rather have some course or materials so students can sit and play also learn. So does anyone know of course materials or something that I could download for free to include with this so the machine has a actual work that can be done with it to let the teachers know the students are actually working and not sitting and drawing nudie picts with gimp.
-THIS SPACE FOR RENT!
Its obvious that the PC was bundled with the Windows Operating System in the same manner that IE has been. Therefore, it would be impossible for Microsoft to distribute their OS without the bundled PC, and impossible to remove the bundled PC from the previously mentioned OS.
Its simple really!
Microsoft "Blows Goats(tm)" and is full of shit. It is MY hardware and they can drive on over and "Suck Me Dry(tm)". I will donate whatever I wish to whomever I wish and they can just go away. I would not foist a Microcrap O/S on anyone. I would first install DR-DOS and then give it to whomsoever wanted my antiquated equipment. Mr. Bill, fuck you and then Melinda!
Pointing out the fact that schools ought to have valid licenses for the machines they run is hardly outragous.
The sleazy bit of what they're doing is trying to get schools to police their donors by asking for materials (the CD etc.) so that donors will have a harder time installing the operating system on another machine. It's the donor who goes on to re-use a pre-installed operating system on another machine who is really breaking the licensing agreement.
I work for a non-profit that helps schools and other non-profits plan and manage their technology. My advice with donated computers is that they make sure they have the rights to a license by asking for documentation or proof that the machine came with a pre-installed operating system and a letter from the donor transferring the license before relying on their right to run the software legally.
This is important for schools to know about licensing. Even if they choose to run 100 machines with 4 licenses, they should understand the decision they've made.
The link specifically states that you may _upgrade_ you machines' "software" under your school's educational subscription. IMU "upgrading" requires that the original OEM installation (or some descendant of it) be intact, lending force to their assertion that this original install must be preserved and, of course, legitimately licensed. I'd love to see one of these educationsl agreements - does it provide for outright installation on new machnery (say, built up by the school), or only for upgrading an OEMs install?
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
What if I, purchaser of original said PC, never accepted the Windows license that came with it and promptly deleted the Windows software from the hard drive and destroyed the original disks. I can sell that hardware with out sending the license with it, because I never agreed to that license that states I must sell that license with the machine.
Slay a dragon... over lunch!
Suppose I want to donate my old PC. I want to wipe the HD because it's full of my personal info. But my Win98 CD's lost (its under one of these piles). But I don't want to force a "Naked PC" on them, so I install RedHat 7.2. Is that legal?
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
http://www.microsoft.com/oem/piracy898.asp
Some good stories here
You are in violation of the DMCA for decoding and dissemating what was obviously meant to be an encrypted post with protected contents.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
"Oh Flying Fucks! This little slashdot twerp has discovered how to legally dupe licenses. Authorize $10 million US for the hit squad, and tell them there is a 50% bonus if they prove he suffered before it was over...".
God, I love when you can apply Diablo bugs to real world law. And mama said I'd never learn anything of value playing video games...
Nowhere does Microsoft say that the _buyer_ is legally required to get the software. The _seller_ is legally required to provide it. Your lack of reading comprehension skills has no bearing on legal fact.
These could be assembled into a computer which could be used to pirate software.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
Comment removed based on user account deletion
What they are saying (although it is misleading) is that and pre-installed copy of the OS can not be used on another computer. They are not saying that the computer can not be used with out the original OS, the original OS can not be used with out the computer. They are making a statment for no reason (other than to mislead). The school is not in the position to have a copy of pre-installed software with out the computer. Why the hell would I donate my OEM copy of Win 98. I am not that mean. The schools ARE in the position to receive a computer with no OS.
So why did they make this statement. To confuse and being just a pain in the a$$ as they always have been. Thanks you very much
www.fotoforay.com
The original article's quote omitted an important piece to this. If you're giving away a machine with an OEM-installed OS, the OS license goes with the machine.
The important thing, as far as MS is concerned, is that if I donate a PC with an OEM-installed OS, I don't keep a copy of the OS. The one copy that was on the machine goes with it when it's donated.
Yes, the MS piece could say that more clearly, but it's a guide for recipients of donations, not the donors themselves
"Peanuts, Mr Bond?"
Pre-installed operating systems are licensed for the machine that they came pre-installed on, and if you want to unload the machine on somebody, you have to give them the OS, too, you can't give them the machine and keep the OS. If you do and they accept, then you have violated the license agreement if you retain your license for other use, and the donatee is violating the license agreement by running an OS for which they do not have the license.
That's all they're saying. In caveman terms, it goes: you give puter away you lose right to OS too.
They're telling schools to make sure they get a tranfer of the license if they want to continue to use the OS that's on it. They don't say this part very clearly because, as some of you have said (and I agree with), MS enjoys FUD tactics.
But even if you don't ever use the OS that comes with a donated machine and you just rip it out and throw Linux on top of it, that Windows license is for that machine only and cannot be used otherwise. Now, in the case where an educational facility wishes to erase Windows and install something else, they aren't using the Windows license so only the donator is in trouble for not including it. But if the recipient keeps using Windows without having the license they're in Dip Sheet (tm).
Yeah, MS doesn't make it very clear how this really works but there's nothing on that page that isn't true.
What is even funnier is that m$ has a detailed guide to uninstall linux from a computer, yet they say the things in the article...
So, to recap:
If there are windows in a pc, KEEP THEM.
If there is ANYTHING else, install windows.
Looking for people to chat about multicopters, coding, music. skype: gtsiros
If you buy a used car, you must make sure it comes wil the original tank of gas. It's a legal requirement... look it up.
The empty box is not a computer, add a motherboard is it a computer now? Take the mobo back out - is it stil a computer? Without a hard drive it cannot "compute" so without a harddrive is is a "computer?" Put a mobo, blank hard drive, and memory in the case - is it a computer? Or is it a case with a mobo and blank hard drive in it? At what point does it go from being parts to an actual "computer?"
A. It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine. If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC.
What if I donate my old Macintosh to the elementary school across the street? I've got to scrounge up the original Mac OS which came with it? Doubtful! I don't have any "certificate of authenticity" for it, or even an instruction manual! Apple doesn't care, they're glad to have more Macs in the school system!
Someone with common sense. Yes, this is what they mean, to anyone who doesn't have their head in their ass. Their legalese is flawed, yes, but IANAL and that's a good thing.
Nonsense. I am under no obligation of donating the Windows license. The license may or may not be transferable to another machine, but I can certainly just throw it out. And that's, in fact, what I do with any unwanted Windows license; I see no point in polluting the minds of little children with Microsoft software.
ah.. yeahh.. a 6 years old boy compiling his own software, a dream comes true :)
2bad the teacher won't be able to help him..
probably..
dahh.
-JAPAN: ol yor beys ar bilong tu as! -AH!
There is such a thing as a free lunch with Linux or one of the *BSDs. Too bad so few people see it.
My school district has about 3300 nodes on the network about 80% of them are Apple. From Microsoft I get vague threats and letters that say stuff like "in pursuant to the audit clause contained in your volume license agreement" and "request that you conduct an internal software inventory" and "technology directors like your self even with asset management programs in place..." On the other hand Apple will give me $80 credit for an old replaced Power Mac when I purchase new iMacs or iBooks in lots of 100 and they don't care where I got them. Now when I purchase mobile labs for the schools over the next couple of years should I get iBooks or notebooks? Hmmm.
Did you know...?
If your school has a Campus Agreement Subscription or a School Agreement Subscription, and you receive a donated computer with a properly licensed operating system, it's automatically covered by your agreement. That means you can install the Campus or School Agreement software on the donated computer at no extra cost.
The statement doesn't specify that the OS must be a Microsoft OS, but merely a licenced one. Seems to me that if I bought a PC with a Redhat license of some kind, then the statement they have made will apply. The requirement is that it should be properly licensed. There is no stipulation that it be licensed through Microsoft.
I called M$ and left a message for their Canadian director of corporate and legal affairs. The message amounts to this: I'd like to know how M$ purports to have formed a contract with my company. We have not negotiated a contract, we have not even been in contact with them, there has been no consideration...
Not one of the requirments for the existance of a binding contract has been met. I gave them my name and phone number. If they choose to sue us then we'll collect on abuse of process.
We may not have as many lawyers on our side but our lawyers are pretty damn good!
So fuck off m$!
In West Virginia, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation just handed the state department of education 16 million dollars.
In return, the state board of ed sold out the public schools.
They handed down a memo saying that all students *must* take part in a questionaire administered by the teachers during school time. One teacher I know estimated that it would take 20 minutes per student, given that there are issues with reading ability at the age of the students being given the test.
This questionaire:
* Was given online. Teachers were required to have Internet Explorer (not "a browser", Internet Explorer) installed on all school computers used in this. Cute way for a monopolist to propogate their products.
* Involved asking students the number and type of products such as camcorders and computers they have at home. Many parents are not willing to give out this information, so building profiles of families by asking adults doesn't work very well. However, when students, children, are required to take an questionare like this by a teacher, they don't have much of a choice, though I suppose they could lie if their parents have taught them the importance of privacy. Microsoft was given the go-ahead to repeat this study two and four years from this point in time. All results get sent to Microsoft.
* Was given during school time. Taxpayers spend enormous amounts of money to pay for *children to be educated*. State laws are put in place to require students to be in school *to be educated*. These resources are supposed to go to education, not to (in my opinion, rather invasive) Microsoft marketing studies.
* Finally, MS made another coup for those 16 million dollars -- they were given a right to appoint a consultant to conduct overviews and approve or deny technology education curriculum. Now, it's possible that this consultant is a totally objective person who really *will* choose Linux or the Mac OS over Windows, or competing office/database products over MS's offerings if those things are better choices in a given scenerio. However, I rather doubt it. This is traditionally a large Apple market, but in one fell swoop, MS cut the legs out from Apple throughout the entire state.
I'm wondering whether this is just my state, or whether this is happening elsewhere. Anyone else hear about similar things in their own states? I could be a new Microsoft offensive against Apple, or just something that's been going on for a while, but I feel more than a little uncomfortable with it, and I doubt any letters I write are going to quite measure up to 16 million dollars in terms of legislators' decisions.
May we never see th
Why? I'll tell you why! To make it difficult for people to donate PCs to schools, that's why.
No
This is done for the following reasons:
1. So that you don't keep the OS that came with your computer and (gasp) install it on another machine. They want you to buy another copy and they don't want the manufacturers to think that they can sell a computer with the OS.
2. To perpetuate the monopoly. Remember these OS's were installed when Microsoft was coercing hardware companies to pay for a copy of Windows regardless of whether it was installed or not. So they put it on anyway.
3. And most importantly, to ensure the kiddies of today use Windows and don't get corrupted by another OS.
18 US 1001 (a) (3) CLEARLY states that Olinator must be put in a maximum security prison to be anally raped every night. This is actual legal advice. I am a lawyer. I really mean it. Oh, it also says you have to give me all your money :)
Oh, I'm SO going to jail for that lie.....
I suppose, if I could find a single instance of funny sarcasm, I would be able to refute your argument. The fact that I won't does not make you right.
[This is assuming that you meant "Sarcasm is not funny", and not "Sarcasm (the abstract concept of sarcasm) is not *exactly the same thing* as humour(the abstract concept of humour)." I'd have to agree with that. It's just that your notation is unclear.]
Annotated rebuttal at http://stay-legal.org/article.php3?story_id=28.
Hmm, well the *only* system that I own that was bundled with *anything* when I bought it was the Dell Laptop.
:)
All of the other systems were home-built, not store-bought, and so thus did not have *any* pre-installed OS.
Of course, any system I have that isn't going to be used by a human will be relegated to the closet and put in the cluster of linux boxen. So I won't be donating anything anytime soon.
GIR: I'm going to sing the Doom song now. Doom doom doom doom doom doom de-doom doom doom doom doom doom doom...
I could accept that it is a legal requirement that a pre-installed OS not be used on an another machine. Granted. Microsoft seems to be dictating that a machine must have windows for its lifetime: "If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC."
It should be perfectly legal for me to throw away a machine's Windows software, then donate it naked. In fact, if I want to spread the gospel of Linux, I should be able to donate a machine and deliberately not provide the Windows software. I just can't subsequently use the software myself. Microsoft is misleading donors and recipients.
HiyaPower writes:
In US Federal firearms regulation, this is illegal. There is a single part that is the 'registered receiver', which is the piece that Federal registration requires to have a serial number and on which taxes are paid.Interestingly, this same logic does not apply to firearms magazines. Manufacture and import of new "High Capacity" (10 rounds or higher) is banned, but technically you split your existing magazine down to four or so major components, buy "replacement parts", and assemble four "new" magazines, each having one component from the original legal magazine, and not violate the law.
Not that many people are in any rush to be a test case for this interpretation of the law...
To claim that you "created 2 licenses" is naive. There was one license, you split the hardware on which it ran, you still have one license, and one OpenBSD server.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
Microsoft should add a disclaimer along with that... "Warning, a blue screen (otherwise known as a BSOD) may affect student academic performance."
edprice@microsoft.com This is the address supplied on the site to ask about licensing requirements. I suggest he be contacted to clear up any doubt as to the intended meaning of the statement that an OEM licensed OS must remain on the machine for the life of said machine. This would effectively make it illegal to ever remove Windows from a machine and install Linux. This is obviously (to me, anyway) NOT the case. Wonder what Mr. Price has to say about it.
Karma: Professionally Doomed (mostly affected by inability to keep opinions to self)
Basically they imply that all PCs must have Windows, all PCs have always had Windows, and any other OS is either illigal or doesn't exist. They managed to say all this with out using the word 'Windows'
The "It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine" bit should read:
"It is a legal requirement that pre-installed Windows OSs remain with a machine for the life of the machine"
That could infact be true, I havn't read the EULA. You can't really define a 'machine' because its simply a collection of components. If you change the case is it still the same machine? Maybe they refer to the hard-drive that stores Windows. Its an erasable media and could loose its data in an accident. Does that mean, that if while carrying my Windows CD, i trip and fall onto the computer, breaking the CD and bringing a large nearby magnet into contact with the hard-drive i would be breaking the law? I think not. Anyway, im ok 'cos i have my pirate version of Windows installed so my computer is legal.
Remember people, pirating Windows, is not just a great benefit - it is a legal requirement!
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Someone once said, "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." Or if someone didn't say it, he should have.
Please, folks. This is not some nefarious Redmondian plot. It's simply a case of some middle-management MS trog going live with a website without running it by the legal department first. Had the MS legal eagles clapped eyes on this concoction before it debuted, there's no way that statement about "owning" licensed software ever would have seen the light of day.
This is just some Redmond lackey trying to explain the OEM OS license in public-speak and horribly mangling it in the process. This mysterious much-maligned Microsoft minion is not malicious, just misinformed.
Before we all get our undies in a bundle, I suggest everyone calm down, count to ten, wait a couple of days and then check the site again. I all but guarantee it will either be gone, or at least substantially reworded to conform much closer to legal realities.
Didn't any of you read the Terms of Use at the bottom of that page?
"PERSONAL AND NON-COMMERCIAL USE LIMITATION.
Unless otherwise specified, the Services are for your personal and non-commercial use. You may not modify, copy, distribute, transmit, display, perform, reproduce, publish, license, create derivative works from, transfer, or sell any information, software, products or services obtained from the Services."
If I'm not mistaken, you guys have copied parts of that page and pasted it here. You are in soooo much trouble.
oh crap... I just pasted part of the TOU here...
Ok, somebody with time and resources PLEASE sue Microsoft for damages.
Imagine this scenario: your organization, reading the above statement issued from Microsoft, declines donated PCs. Instead, your organization (which is saving dolphins, feeding the poor, educating children, etc - something PR friendly) spends 50k on new hardware.
This would seriously vilify MS; they outright lied and now little Jimmy will be learning with a typewriter and abacus. Bill Gates has already taken some heat for not "giving back" to society and this hardly helps.
The decision to accept or decline an offer of donated computers for your school can be complicated. There are many important questions to ask, including:
Is the computer crippled - ie. Does it have Windows installed?
How much admin overtime will you have to pay for the bugs to be sorted out so you can get these Windows machines working?
Will your teachers or students need counselling after they use Windows?
If you feel it is in the best interest of your school to accept the donated PCs, make sure that the hardware donation does not include Windows. Not using windows on a PC is not just a great benefit - it is your right.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
I think the automatic spelling correction is a fscking stupid feature. I've often in the past had google incorrectly think it knew better than me what I was looking for.
Anyway, I was testing our web proxy the other day and hammered some gibberish into the google search box, got this amusing result (as my first experience with their automatic spelling correction):
Your original search: sdfadfsdafsdaf was misspelled and returned 0 results.
The corrected search: sdfsdfsdfsdf was done instead and the results appear below.
(Anyway, I can't stand the obnoxious "your original search WAS misspelled"
Seems to me the whole web page borders on the fraudulent.
Instead of just going back and forth about it, why not start opening cases with places like The Better Business Bureau? There are several government agencies, consumer watchdog groups, etc. which would also be able to determine the legal extent of the subterfuge being propagated.
(Note: I cannot think of such groups at the moment; however, I'm sure someone can provide the names of the those best suited to act.)
While I doubt it'd do much good, if a big enough grass roots effort were to be started, it might just cause pages like this to be removed/altered.
Point is, if groups/orgs/bureaus don't know, and nobody complains, *nothing* will *most definitely* be what end up getting done about it.
I just don't see what the problem is here.
Tape the Windows CD-ROM to the bottom of the stupid computer and forget about it!
--Richard
While there may no be an associated up-front cost, there may be long term monetary costs, and there are certainly economic costs.
Unless, of course, you are unemployed, live in your parents basement, and would otherwise spend your time drooling.
A. It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine.
Ah! Then spot-welding the Windows CD to the case will work just fine.
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
MS might be referring to tax laws. When the donator deducts taxes, he/she's deducting the depreciated value of the machine. The depreciated value of the machine includes whatever software was included in the price of the pc.
Just a thought from a european without any knowledge of US tax laws.
Yeah, Lycoris isn't going to make the hard-core, Debian-based, Linx-loving /.'s hit parade. And maybe Mandrake is too friendly for our technical tastes.
... donated PCs may be yet another way of getting Linux in one door ... while shoving MSFT out the other ...
But I work with alot of charities, and I am more than pleased to get them up and running on nice little operating systems.
In light of this article
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
Is the photo on the site from one of the schools M$ donated to?A GES/Computers.jpg
:) (see fore-ground row of computers 3 monitors only 2 keyboards etc)
http://www.microsoft.com/education/images/STYLEIM
looks like they didn't donate enough keyboards and mice
I don't know why but this reminded me of when I was setting up the speech-to-text ability on Windows XP. To do this you have to read different text for the machine to 'understand' you later. One of the texts you read is a part from The Fall of the House of Usher, why uses a unique description for parts of the house. One part gets mentioned a few times meaning you have to say several times the following phrase: "eye-like windows"
This is not the way to build a lasting empire.
Is how they are trying to redefine the generic term "operating system." My guess is that Microsoft recently changed their OEM agreement to do exactly this, make you contractually obliged to to provide the MS OS you purchased with the computer to anyone you donate the computer to. Given my (admittedly limited) knowledge of contract law, that is well within there legal power to do.
:-) and that not only can they use it on the computer you gave them, but they can legally use it on any x86 hardward they have.
But what I find so amusing is that they have worded their guide to imply that this contractual obligation is something that applies to all operating systems. I doubt that Linux or any of the BSDs have put such wording in there license.
So lets use this to our advantage. Burn a CD with your favorite free OS. Tell the school that this was the OS preinstalled on it (and cross your fingers behind your back so you have an out in court if they can prove you weren't telling the truth
what i'm trying to say is open-source/gnu empowers people. people that want to know that want to learn and are interested. from what i've seen at the colleges i've been to, no FUD will derail the empowerment. and guess what, the same people will be running systems of tomorrow. MS pulling shit like this won't stop people running linux. actually it makes it more attractive. if you want to be a rebel and be 'cool' (well, as cool as CS majors can be) you gotta do what the system won't let you do. the harder you make it to do these these things the more enticing it becomes. so thank you MS. you just made my job cooler. btw, i'm looking forward to going to this particular college for their extensive distributed computing curriculum. the students there run a 20 somthing node mosix cluster with a combination of PowerPC and x86. None of them running windows. guess MS can stuff those EULAs for the 15+ x86s up their you know what.
I'm seeing a lot of people who seem to be mistaking this as an attempt by Microsoft to get more money. They won't actually profit from this thing, what they are trying to do is extend their influence into the schools. It's directly related to their little stunt with the computer donations to schools. Remember when they said they would pay off the individual state anti-trust suits by donating computers to schools?
Science may someday discover what faith has always known.
It's free alright... like the moldy bread and spoiled meat in the dumpster of the local supermarket. Dig in!
Crap man, I just installed Mandrake on an old Compaq that was doing nothing useful. Do you think Microsoft is going to send the "do not remove under penalty of law" police to my house ?
Mother-son-of-a-gun, I'd better check those seat cushions while I'm at it.
I see dot-bombers down the homless shelter every day and get free lunch
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
What MS did say was
"""
It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine.
"""
Life of the machine, not the software. And that's regardless of whether or not an actual backup media copy of the software was provided by the OEM to the user. (You remember that story, right?)
Since when did Microsoft start licensing HP/Dell/Gateway's hardware?
"It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine. "
And they say the GPL is an evil Pac-Man, consuming all of their property rights because GPL code has to be open-sourced... while they quietly devour the hardware that I legally purchased. Hrm.
At my school we got quite a few computers from dirty employees that still had some 'pictures' and 'videos' containing things that would get us in trouble. I formatted the HDD instead of sifting and deleting each file (I've seen it all anyways.) Is this also a violation of the license?
Seriously Microsoft makes themselves look like asses and I'm glad we got resources like slashdot to expose their idiotic ways.
Microsoft starts out that page posing some really interesting questions:
Will the computer run the software that your school currently uses?
What is the cost of integrating the hardware into your existing networks?
Will your teachers or students need additional training to use the computer?
And then proceeds to totally ignore those three important topics and prattles warning schools about operating system licenses. What the feck? Makes me ill.
poor_boi
It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine. I guess those millions of copies of Windows upgrades were illegal then. It's time the threaten to break them up and, after a while, chicken out again.
No excellent soul is exempt from a mixture of madness. --Aristotle
I can't hold my breath that long! I can't help but think that they are being intentionally vague. They have too much to gain from their FUD. The fact that they are giving what sounds like legal advice just scares me. If it was just stupidity, they certainly disguised it with lots of official sounding blah-diddy-blah.
If it's still there in a couple of days, can I get paranoid then?
Since this probably applies to non-profits as well, I'll answer from that world. As a non-profit techie, I can tell you that 99% of computers donated to non-profits are not worth the time. The only way they would be worth the time is if you installed Linux on them, and 99% of non-profit organizations don't want to deal with Linux.
I have actually had people recently want to give my organization 486's. If I had all the time in the world, sure, it would worth salvaging for parts, maybe using it as a low-end box of some sort. But the truth is, I don't have time. And most non-profits don't have a techie who can make that little 8086 in the corner work. Or even that P-133, with Win95 and Office 95 and 8 megs of RAM, with a 28.8 modem work. It's just not in their job description.
Now, if people give us new machines, well that's great. But the fact is, they don't. And if they do, they usually come with the damn licenses etc.
That's gotta fit into your schema somewhere
It is a legal requirement that pre-installed operating systems remain with a machine for the life of the machine. If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC.
Ok, first off, it doesn't say remain installed on the machine. The license (for that OEM version, and only that copy) is bound to the system.
Second, you have the right to terminate the EULA, destroy all copies of the OS and that's it, the contract is void.
Not only that but remember the great windows charity controversy - where they pointed the EULA saying windows licenses are not transferable from one person to another in order to scare charities into buying new copies of windows for PC's that were donated.
so.. I buy a copy of windows... I install it on my PC.... My PC dies.... I have to buy another copy of windows? Bullshit! And don't start with the OEM crap either, and OEM version of windows just means that I paid an extra $100 to the manufacturer who paid if to MS for me instead of doing it directly). That's like telling me that if I buy a CD and my CD player breaks, I need to buy another one (I know the RIAA would love that, but its not true) or that when I buy a set of pots and pans for my kitchen, if I buy a new stove, I need to buy new pots and pans.
If I buy software, either directly or indirectly, it is mine. I will put it on one machine and one machine only (at a time) and I will not give a copy to anyone else. I will give them the original when I am done with it. I still have a copy of windows 98 that came with a PC I no longer own. I don't own it because it has been scavenged for parts for other machines that I have. Are you telling me that I have to now throw this copy away and buy a new copy of windows 98 if I want to put 98 on a spare machine I just built from parts for my parents? This country is truly, and I mean truly FUCKED UP if the courts will uphold that.
We did one better in NZ. Our government paid NZ$10M (about US$4.4M) to Microsoft for software for schools.
Education Minister Trevor Mallard signed an agreement in Seattle that gives New Zealand schools access to the latest versions of a package of Microsoft products.
This link has more details about the affirmentioned agreement.
So we just handed over the money. No arm twisting, nothing!
404 Not Found The requested signature was not found on this server.
Imagine if you are an administrator at a school and a computer vendor is pitching Linux as a way for you to reduce costs and stretch your IT budget. If you are not reasonably aware on MS's FUD tactics, you might just barely remember reading at one point that it would be illegal for you to change the operating system of a computer that you already own. You don't remember where you read it necessarily, but suddenly this "problem solver" whose come into your office seems a little suspicious. Must be some kind of miscreant who's trying to get you to do something illegal.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Yes, this is what happens when drug wars, open-ended wars in the Middle East, and corporate bailouts/handouts/tax-breaks take priority over education spending. Schools end up squeezed and have to go begging.
Simply requiring Internet Explorer seems odd, but since it's the default browser on both Windows and Mac OS I don't see the problem. It's not like the schools had to go out and *buy* the darn thing.
I agree, it's odious that students are being polled about their consumer behavior. I'm surprised this action is not illegal (not saying it is or isn't, but it seems like something normally proscribed). And I'm not sure I see the value in demographic information collected this way, it wouldn't seem to be very complete or reliable.
School time is wasted on millions of non-education related tasks, many wholeheartedly endorsed by taxpayers. Pledging allegiance to a piece of colored cloth. Disinformation about drug use. Abstinence pledges. Etc. In many cases the education value of the material is highly questionable, but the social agenda is clear.
$16 million may seem insignificant to Microsoft, but to a school district that's huge. My local school district (I'm a parent, not a student) is short about $30 million right now. Given the low impact IT decisions have on schools overall (except maybe as an expense item), I wouldn't be too opposed to some sort of quid pro quo in my own district. I'm not so worried about Microsoft products in the schools, the schools canoot be the vanguard in the fight for a new OS-- especially since that's traditional Apple territory. Frankly, I think it would be cheaper for Microsoft to obtain this demographic data by simply paying adults to participate in a good survey or two (or buying it from company's whose main business is demographic data-- since when is market research a core competency over at Microsoft?).
The worst aspect of this is the consultant role you mention. That seems to be a lock on Microsoft making sure that as much of that $16 million gets spent on Microsoft products.
Have I heard of this in my area? No. The schools here use Macs and if my daughter said they were using school time to take consumer surveys, everyone from the teacher to the school board would hear about it. That would be front-page news in one of the states taking the hardline against Microsoft in the anti-trust suits.
I do not have a signature
Yes, IRIX does kick Ass! (Really!)
;-)
I would have to agree. I even like the modified version of CDE, but then again, I'm strange, as you, apparently, are also
As several people have pointed out, there's a lot of FUD in this advisory from Microsoft (big surprise). My question is, what can we do about it, besides rant on Slashdot? I'm sure much of the general public would believe Microsoft over Slashdot readers. Is there any way for people like us to counter the FUD?
They're Pinky and the Brain
Yes, Pinky and the Brain
One is a genius, the other's insane
They're laboratory mice
Their genes have been spliced
They're dinky
They're Pinky and the Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain
Before each night is done
Their plan will be unfurled
By the dawning of the sun
They'll take over the world
They're Pinky and the Brain
Yes Pinky and the Brain
Their twilight campaign
Is easy to explain
To prove their mousey worth
They'll overthrow the Earth
They're dinky
They're Pinky and the Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain,
Brain, Brain, Brain, NARF!
These provisions in a EULA are invalid..at least in California..
It is clear that the provisions for bundled software would also apply to bundling software with hardware...
Here is some background..
http://lwn.net/2001/1108/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23073.html
http://www.cacd.uscourts.gov/CACD/RecentPubOp.nsf/ bb61c530eab0911c882567cf005ac6f9/574aa79ff51802118 8256aed006ea2dc/$FILE/CV00-04161DDP.pdf
see LWN text below-
Hope that helps!
-Chris
______cut here________
License agreements and first sale doctrine.
Below the radar of much of the free software community, another interesting case was coming to a conclusion in U.S. District Court in California. In this case, our old buddy Adobe Software was pushing for an injunction against SoftMan Systems. Softman, it seems, has been buying Adobe software collections, splitting them into their component parts, and selling those parts independently. Adobe's claim is that this reselling activity violates the end-user license agreement (EULA) covering the program, and is thus a copyright violation.
The court disagreed (this ruling, too, is available in PDF format - [longish URL above] -). Essentially, the court has said that the EULA does not apply to SoftMan, for a couple of interesting reasons. One is that SoftMan never agreed to the EULA, and is thus not bound by its terms:
In the instant case, the Court finds that there is only assent on the part of the consumer, if at all, when the consumer loads the Adobe program and begins the installation process. It is undisputed that SoftMan has never attempted to load the software that it sells. Consequently, the Court finds that SoftMan is not subject to the Adobe EULA.
The ruling also casts doubt on whether agreeing to a click-through license can truly be binding to the consumer.
The other aspect of the court's ruling is that the software was sold - not licensed - to SoftMan:
The Court understands fully why licensing has many advantages for software publishers. However, this preference does not alter the Court's analysis that the substance of the transaction at issue here is a sale and not a license.
Since this transaction is a sale, the first sale doctrine applies:
In short, the terms of the Adobe EULA at issue prohibit licensees from transferring or assigning any individual Adobe product that was originally distributed as part of a Collection unless it is transferred with all the software in the original Collection. This license provision conflicts with the first sale doctrine in copyright law, which gives the owner of a particular copy of a copyrighted work the right to dispose of that copy without the permission of the copyright owner.
These conclusions are interesting, in that they have the potential to tilt the interpretation copyright law a little toward the rights of users of copyrighted material. For example:
Both DVD cases depend, partly, on the claim that a commercial DVD package was "improperly" reverse engineered. It is the software's EULA, however, that prohibits that reverse engineering. If the code is reverse engineered without installing it and agreeing to the EULA (by, say, disassembling it on a Linux system), the EULA does not apply. The Bunner case, in particular, could be affected by this ruling.
Reselling that unwanted Windows installation on your new computer should be legal.
Electronic books, too, are subject to first sale; it should be possible to resell them.
The ruling gives an out to software companies that wish to continue to "license" rather than sell a copy of their software. The transaction is considered a sale when it involves a single payment and use of the software for an unlimited time. Thus, the "rent-a-program" schemes being proposed by many are untouched.
This affirmation of the first sale doctrine is a welcome strengthening of the rights of consumers of copyrighted material. Here is an interesting scenario, though: suppose an unethical vendor obtains a copy of a program licensed under the GPL, makes a change, and resells the product under a proprietary license?
Consider, for example, a Linux distribution where the C library has been replaced with a proprietary, value-added package. The vendor could argue that the tweaked copy can be resold under the first sale doctrine. Massive distribution could be made possible by "purchasing" a new copy of the GPL code for each copy sold. We may never see a vendor attempting this approach, but the possibility exists.
Y'all missed the point. What Microsoft is saying is that if you give away a PC that came with a Windows license originally, you have to give away that Windows license along with it; as a practical matter, this means that people won't be giving away PCs with Windows but no license, and trying to keep the license for another PC -- by doing it this way, Microsoft insures that people who DO upgrade have to make a conscious decision to buy a new Windows license, or not to buy one and run another OS instead.
Try it this way: Every machine running an unlicensed copy of Windows is a missed opportunity to have that machine running something else. If the school districts are given the Windows licenses with the machines and choose not to use the licenses (by running something else), even better!
MOO;IANAL.
There used to be a picture linked here.
I bought a system with Windows 98 loaded on it. When I got to the counter to pay for it I told the lady I didnt want the Windows 98 CD and she knocked 80 bucks off the price of the system. Was she supposed to do that, was the machine supposed to be wiped(which I did when I got home), or was she supposed to wipe the harddrive before I left the store??
Don't forget...anytime you accept a donated heart...MicroGOD!
No...it's okay...I wasn't using my Civil Liberties anyway
I'm sure there are tons of companies out there that bought old boxes with Windows NT 4.0 installed on it. It would almost be worth the effort to reinstall NT from scratch (does this void the "original OS") and donate it without any service packs, option packs, or patches...
Let's see how many middle school system administrators will get pissed at MS after their boxes with the original operating systems get hacked to display pr0n.
A better reason to switch over to an OS w/ no such stupid requirement I cannot think of.
I don't believe you.
Post proof (a copy of the memo, or at least a news story discussing the memo) or retract.
Is there some law that makes you a criminal if you miseducate the public about laws?
This is the best thing to happen to schools! Take the donated PC remove Windows, install Linux, take the Windows discs back to the store and ask for a refund. After all, the license allows you a refund if you don't agree to the EULA before installing.
Meet your new firend, Mr. Debian Root Disk
and his sidekick, Miss Debian Boot Disk.
I took that test in school this week. I'm in Virginia, actually. Wasn't so bad, really. I in fact took it during my post-AP Computer Archetecture class. The funny part is that it asked dumb questions.
:)
"Q: How skilled are you with databases (rank 1-5)?" Comment to friend: "Gee, I'm a little rusty with my MySQL."
"Q: How often do you make webpages (with programs like Microsoft Frontpage)?" Comment to friend: "Well, I'll say 'Never.' I prefer Vim 6.0, myself..."
All in all, it was a dumb and poorly-designed survey. Technically, all the students had to do it. But, as our school receives most of our *nix-running computers from generous non-Microsoft business donors, we didn't feel like we owed them many favors. In fact, under "Other Comments," I bitched about how it was a stupid waste of time.
I seem to remember my Freshman Political Science Professor beating us (figuratively) about the head and shoulders for using terms without defining them. The Question: What is a computer? Before you can try to force someone to keep "Proof of autheniticy and EULA" documents with a computer, one should have to define what a computer is. Frankly, they act as if it is the case, based upon their new policy of having stickers for the serial numbers.
By the way, the issue in the federal courts would have been settled long ago if they would define what an Operating System is. Last time I checked, an OS is the core program (kernel) that manages computer resources and scheduling. Maybe the DOJ and the States should get Tannenbaum to testify and explain that Windows Media Player, (And the Desktop for that matter) are APPLICATIONS and NOT part of an Operating System, nor that they ever could be. And while we are at it, we should address the definition of a computer as a MODULAR platform that can be assembled from its component parts.
And by the way, perhaps schools should get in the habit of accepting donations of computer parts and avoid the whole discussion.
"I wasn't using my civil rights anyway...."
Mod that one up about +3(funny)
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
Right here. (http://www.k12ltsp.org) works great, comes bundled with some software, and is even a terminal server installation. Based off of Red Hat 7.2, I believe. We're looking to get it working here at my school, but the best we've got for servers are my two Compaq P-200's :-( Anybody got P-II's or higher that we could get? Boards, chips, anything....most of our systems are 486/P-75's (for PC, 33-75) and 575/580 (for mac, 33 MHz)
All of our PCs are donated by CFS (Computers For Schools Refurbishing Program) St. Cloud State Pennitentary, St. Cloud, Minn, and (ours) have come with Win 95A/B license. They're shyite. We get complete systems, but the two of us who do hardware (mind you, we have over 700 computers in our school) can't get through them all...I'm a volunteer, still a student, only work one hour a day. We have a second PAID staffer (neither one is me) who basically does software. We have NO tech budget whatsoever in our school.
CFS gets their computers from anyone who is willing to donate them to CFS, but they are usually so old, they won't run much, and when they do, usually not very well. We're looking into *nix up here, mainly as terminals, so we don't have to keep replacing the HDD's (stupid hard drives....die if ya look at 'em funny....)
We're told we cannot move those licenses to other machines, so they're basically an OEM license, 'cept we don't get any documentation, we're supposed to call them and have them come reinstall if one dies (yeah right, hour plus drive, we've got over 150 of these CFS POSes)
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
For those of us who went to the .NET academic launch thingy, our school's definately did not pay for the software, seeing as the event was not held at my school nor did my school have anything to do with said event.
-matt
I'm curious, if you have to keep the operating system that was originally licensed with the machine, what happens if you say change the hard-drive? Does this constitutes a new machine? What if I change the processor? How about add some ram? How about if I paint it blue?
My point is that a lot of these older systems might receive upgrades from the schools they go to, even if it's just adding a bit more ram, and many of them may have been upgraded by their previous owners. At what point is it a new machine without the fetters of Microsoft licensing?
My company donated thousands of computers to a recycling company that took the machines, wiped them clean with a scrubbing software package (ensuring the information could not ever be retrieved). Placed only COMMAND.COM, MSDOS.SYS, and IO.SYS on the hard disk partition and then gave the computers to schools, etc.
I don't believe that they wanted to run the risk of data being sent out on the drives nor licensing issues with the big bad MS over our site-licensed copy of NT 4.0. Also our company name and logo was inserted all over the place on a default Ghost build. We didn't really have the ability to reghost the computers and left that task to the recycling company. We also washed our hands clean of the computers when the recycling company took them off our hands. A full inventory tracking serial numbers was performed to ensure all computers were donated or destroyed.
When the machines were bought, the copies of Win95/98 that shipped with them were given away still in the shrink wrap. (Back when MS actually shipped an OEM copy of Win95/98 full install that was not able to perform an upgrade. Now they just ship the license and the OEM bundles a system restore disk. This sucks because I hate the OEM builds as they are usually complete crap. I want a generic installation that I have full control over. I've actually paid full price for a Windows OS just so I'd have an actual MS CDROM! This on top of the same OS coming on the computer from the OEM that I paid for in the purchase price.) They were supposed to be disposed of but employee's were walking away with arm fulls of CD's with authentic and valid license codes. We immediately dropped a network card into each one and ghosted them from the network with a consistent office build of NT 4.0 with all the software, patches and engineering changes included.
The powers that be even declared that employee's were not allowed to take old hardware that was being donated or discarded. Something to do with liability issues.
This is getting really really really stupid. Makes me wish we could run Linux on workstations, just to avoid the stupid licensing bullshit.
> Someone once said, "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." Or if someone didn't say it, he should have.
You're correct, someone did (don't remember who at the moment).
The problem is, Microsoft's done so much that has been proven to be attributable to malice that they don't get the benefit of that doubt anymore.
Suppose person P buys a computer with windows installed. Now maybe there is a contract between him and microsoft. But suppose person p gets rid of windows, and gives computer to school S. School S is in no contractual relationship with microsoft. They have no legal requirements not to take the computer. Also calling a contractual requirement a legal one is missleading.
You want to know why everyone hates you-this is why. You are making legal threats to schools who 1)aren't hurting anyone, and 2)are strapped for cash. So, don't bitch and moan about how everyone hates you. Honestly, Billy-boy, you're the dumbest smart guy I've ever met...
"Do I dare disturb the universe?"
To accept a donated computer, you must adhere to the following:
1. The computer MUST have windows XP on it. If it originally came with windows 9x/me/2000, you must UPGRADE IT! DO NOT ACCEPT MAC computers since you cannot replace it with windows.
1B Installation of Linux is a federal felony.
2. Nowhere on the computer shall the program Netscape Navigator, AOL Instant Messenger, Corel Office Suite, or any other NON-Microsoft software exist.
3. Since it must run XP, the hardware requirements are: 50Ghz Processor, 100TB HDD, 400GB RAM.
$cat
Microsoft could easily make a DMCA case out of this. If you delete your copy of Windows and give away the computer, you must have intended to violate the EULA. Since the EULA could conceivably be considered a copy-protection device (even though all it does is ask you not to copy the software!), you'd be in immediate violation of the law.
;)
And we all know the government/big corporation position on being "guilty until proven innocent". Just look at Dmitri... or anyone who has been audited by the Infernal Revenue Stealers.
I always assembled my own systems because I get better components. Now you have to do it to keep from getting arrested if you decide to change operating systems.
-- bytesmythe
bytesmythe
Hypocrisy is the resin that holds the plywood of society together.
-- Scott Meyer
This, to me, looks just soooooo unprofessinal... The same browser/proxy combo works on most other sites, except those Microsoft-driven ones and some sites which insist on getting a valid Referer: tag (which I block).
I know I would not want my companies website to display this nonsense to potential customers...
--frank[at]unternet.org
I too would like more information on this with regards to West Virginia. Its not that I don't believe you, its that I would like to share this with my wife who is a high school librarian. And she likes to have lots of information.
:-)
Would you happen to have any links or magazine articles that you could refer me to?
Thanks
They have so many more curse words than we yanks:
stuffed =~ "fscked"
nobheads !~ a term anyone would use in America
pilsiing !~ anything American
canoe == well, take a guess
carshead =~ a place one might park a car in US?
diddly order =~ maybe an organization of wankers?
wankers|tossers =~ nothing particularly bad in US
smeghead =~ understandable but unused in US
"crapped nosex breasts" =~ nonsense over here
arsehole =~ asshole in US, just another spelling variation
And all we have over here are "jerkoffs" and "dickheads".
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
The original article's quote omitted an important piece to this. If you're giving away a machine with an OEM-installed OS, the OS license goes with the machine.
No, it just can't go with any other machine. If you're the donor, you're perfectly entitled to "destroy" the software and just donate the machine. The recipient can put whatever s/he wants on it, as long as s/he has the relevant licenses. It might be useful to the recipient to have the original software, but it's not illegal to remove it.
The important thing, as far as MS is concerned, is that if I donate a PC with an OEM-installed OS, I don't keep a copy of the OS. The one copy that was on the machine goes with it when it's donated.
Oh please... They deliberately phrased the statements on the web page to imply something else: that it's illegal to remove pre-installed Windows. The really "important thing as far as MS is concerned" is to maintain mindshare, especially for a machine that gets donated to a school.
Yes, the MS piece could say that more clearly, but it's a guide for recipients of donations, not the donors themselves
That's no excuse.
Well at the high school I attend (in WA) I've been told not to install linux because it's "against policy". However, we do have a few macs.
As I understand, what the page *means* to say is 'A liscensed OS must not be used on another PC' rather than what it actually says which is 'A computer must not be used with another OS'. Digusting. Simply disgusting. I`d throttle Bill Gates for this immoral deception.
loply.com
Disabling ALL the executables on the drive?
WinXXX is not owned by MS, it was MANUFACTURED, by programming human machines sitting behind desks doing the same mundane tasks every day.
What if I don't care about MS law?
What if I want to use the CDs for target practice?
Does my NOT giving away all the copies in my posession, but asking for reimbursment for the purchase price to help me defray MY cost of the donation somehow damage MS in a provable case?
Does MS really have that much power over the nation that it can now FORCE you to abide by their own law/s?
How would MS ever find out or know that I never supplied the originals, but kept them?
How does one go about obtaining a "Microsoft Search Warrant"?
Really, does anybody truly fall for the MS-law bit?
Does anybody remember that no business can execute any search warrant upon you?
What authority does MS retain over the nation's PC users, that WE THE PEOPLE don't have?
*Oh, hello mr. cop, and who's that jackass with you?
That's the software "specialist" from MS, we're here to execute a search warrant for possible illegal/pirated copies of MS's software!
Okay Mr. cop, YOU can enter, but Mr. "specialist" WILL remain outside, this is private property and protected by the constitution, and Mr. "specialist" is NOT a recognized law enforcement officer, judge or appointed legal representative, so he WILL not enter my property or land!
If Mr. cop demands his entry, tell him to show you where it reads that private citizens have a right to enter private property without the owner's consent. Mr. cop can NOT grant access to ANYBODY not legally recognized as a law enforcement officer, and NOT listed on the search warrant, even then, ALL parties MUST be court appointed to the execution of each and every warrant issued.
Allowing strangers access to your private domain is foolhardy and dangerous, claim he "may" steal secret professional information that is covered under the trade secrets laws, and his viewing anything you have lying on the table, or elsewhere might cause that person to infringe on your rights, plus he would be guilty of industrial espionage if he were allowed to leave your property un-searched.
Simply demand you be shown the search warrant and also make demands as to the legality of a third party being able to raid your home when this is clearly an invasion of privacy as NO person has the legal right to invade, that act is paramount to tyrrany, as well are all "raids" by police.
The act of raiding a home or property is considered an act of agression and war, carried out by military forces while engaged in the "art" of combat and should NEVER be allowed to progress in the civilized society G. Dubya proclaims(asshole!).
*Script kiddies: Youth used for printing bogus currency of the U.S.A during time/s of war.*
Y'know, it is bullcrap FUD and marketing spin like Microsoft's "Naked PC" campaign that really piss me the hell OFF!!!
What rationale are you supposed to use if the person buying the "naked PC" already HAS an OS (either purchased separately or from a previous, junked, PC)??? Are we blindly supposed to accept whatever "latest and greatest" OS that Microsoft has to offer? What if we are perfectly content with our PREVIOUS OS?
I'd like to sit back with a box of popcorn and listen to Microsoftians answer my perfectly legitimate and valid questions just to HEAR the crap flow from their mouths!!!
(*insert upraised middle finger here*)
...crap like this make me wanna puke...
-PONA-
+that's funny...I don't FEEL tardy.+
All they're saying to schools is:
If you take a PC make sure you get any Licenses that come with it otherwise you might have an illegal copy of Widows on the machine.
It's not a big deal. Their wording is idiotic but the advice is sound.
MS does not give away their OS. If someone decides to donate a hundred PCs and load them up with Linux that's fine. What MS is trying to do is pretend that all PCs run Windows.
This
Isn't it about time that some schools pulled a class action thing on MS?
>In West Virginia, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation just handed the state department of education 16 million dollars.
There's nothing stopping the FSF or any other open source advocacy group from donating similar amounts of money to other departments of education.
That organizations should not accept stolen hardware either.
"I don't think it's selfish, to eat defenseless shellfish." -NOFX
As far as I know, there aren't news articles on it (yet). I'm not a teacher, and was just speaking with some teachers I'm friendly with about it. I was back in town for spring break when the memo reached the elementary school and was handed out at a teacher's meeting. I don't even know when it was to be given -- at that time I was in town, the only people that knew about it were the teachers. It came from the state board of education level, so it's no local initiative. I asked for and got a copy of a page that the teachers were receiving precisely because I wanted to scan it in, but the paper itself is not particularly interesting. The teachers were apparently walked through how to give students the exam -- and since these are step-by-step instructions, they mandate IE. The school currently uses Netscape Navigator 4. It mentioned the donation (and, if I remember correctly, the consultant), but the questionnaire (which I didn't get to see myself, since I wasn't at the meeting) was the particularly nasty item...consumer questions are a no-no in my mind.
:-)
Apparently the principal of the local school was asked by one teacher whether the questions might cause privacy complaints from parents, and he evidently sent the question up the chain of command and after getting a response said that only aggregate data would be used -- to be fair to Microsoft, I did omit that bit.
As one of the other posters has pointed out, it's probably not illegal. Schools also desperately need money as much (if not more...WV is quite poor) in West Virginia as elsewhere. To them, the choice to use Microsoft products is pretty much already made -- they're trying to train people for the workplace. So it isn't that likely that Linux would be chosen, and Microsoft is, at least in the short term, doing more good than harm, since we don't even have computers at some schools in the state, and the money will go a long way.
I do rather dislike this, but can I prove that the Microsoft questionnaire (or Coke Day, or any similar sponsored public-school marketing events) is bad for the students in the school? No. Advertising and market research is all over PBS and the school educational channels anyway, so students are hardly getting a perfectly product-neutral viewpoint in schools. I just don't like *Microsoft* being the one doing it...
I'm sorry I can't mention names, but there have been people laid off for three years now as funding drops, and making waves at the school that point back to specific people is likely to get people fired. People were willing to talk about this, but not to say anything that would get their names negative marks.
You can probably ask a primary-school educator in West Virginia, as they're likely to have been briefed on the questionnaire.
I don't know whether this questionnaire is the same as the one another respondent mentioned -- his "Microsoft questionnaire" was apparently in high school (post-AP?) and one state over.
Finally, as another respondent mentioned, if Microsoft can do this, so can the FSF -- doing this is not some special use of Microsoft monopoly power that lets Microsoft and Microsoft alone do things. I'm not claiming that what was done is illegal -- just frustrating, and not enough people know about it -- I'm not sure that everyone would agree that it's a good idea.
I'd love nothing more than for a reporter to investigate it (find and talk to the education officials involved and do a story on it). I'd just rather not get anyone I know in this in hot water...
May we never see th
You could establish a trust for your computer. It'll be a Reversionary Benficiary Grantor Cestui est que Trust and it'll behold the name of your computer in CAPITAL LETTERS. So, we establish the Trust under the signant of LOCALHOST and LOCALHOST shall be licensed under Microsoft's EULA as an entity, the sole licensee of Microsoft's OS License. Now that we have established the Trust and declared the Trust to be the sole proprieter, we shall transfer this computer as a whole, with all supporting Microsoft OS Licenses, to the donation of choice.
Look at United States property laws, specifically clause 678, and you may simply transfer the TRUST, ala the computer system, and all its REMAINDERS, unto the applicable donator of choice; be it a school, a hamlet, or a psycho-ward.
The problem with this is that it's meant to be a donation in the first place. Second hand hardware that people don't need anymore - if a school was desperate, heck they'll take it, with or without the software documentation and discs. Like those schools in Africa where they've got a lot of second hand 386s and 486s installed with Windows 3.1 or 95 - I doubt that they have the discs and docs - at least that's what I think. Any donation is gift welcomed. And it's for a good cause after all. If the school could use it, why not. If it's being used for non-profit purposes, well, I think they should let it slide really instead of going through all these bravado about legal issues etc.
I am disgusted at this attempt to further warp the minds of our youth. Micro$haft seems to be as bad as the tobacco industry. They are preparing themselves to etch their evil name further into the minds of children, their next customers, just like tobacco was aiming their products at the youth as the veterans died off from the ill effects. I personally think that an open source OS, such as Linux, would do a better job in educating. A Unix system in general provides a more intimate look into the underlyings of computers both hardware and software. And there won't be any worries about illegal copies of this, and license fees for that. If they really gave a sh*t about schools and education, then why do they even require licenses and fees for academic usage. Just because they have money to throw around, doesn't mean that the public school system does too. I've been running a Linux system for a few years now and I have learned more about computers than I ever did in any school. It has taught me programming skills without hiding everything that goes on "behind the scenes" as well as any details about operating systems and networks that help me when I need to tweak something. I would say that learning WindoZe before a real OS is like learning to drive an automatic before a stick shift. Instead of just putting it in drive (booting up) and pressing the gas (point and click), you learn how and why you shift gears and you can downshift *when* you want so you can jam the gas (recompile a kernel) and pass that lane-hogging a**hole (resource hungry Bill Goates) and get on to bigger and better things.
"HEY, BILLY
LEAVE THOSE KIDS ALONE"
'If I have an organ transplant, have I exchanged part of my soul for part of another's?'
If I remove part of my brothers PC is not his PC diminished and mine enriched. Where then does the licence reside.
At least I'll never have to worry about it for my kids.
http://www.sepschool.org/
The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
Please, folks. This is not some nefarious Redmondian plot. It's simply a case of some middle-management MS trog going live with a website without running it by the legal department first. Had the MS legal eagles clapped eyes on this concoction before it debuted, there's no way that statement about "owning" licensed software ever would have seen the light of day.
The same thing could be said of most of the provisions of the majority of the EULAs out there. Yet the language, which would probably never hold up in court, is included anyway simply because most recipients won't have the money to make a challenge. This is considered to be a perfectly acceptable tactic in business.
If you think MS lawyers would nix this you're sadly mistaken. MS can't lose here; they can make threats if they find a pc 'not in compliance' during an audit, but then fall back on the defense that their guidelines were 'misinterpretated' if it came down to a court case.
After all, the wording is beautifully vague yet the implications of that wording point in one direction for anyone reading it; no middle-management schlock could write something so elegant. It has to be the work of a lawyer, adroitly skirting the edges of contract law.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Please, folks. This is not some nefarious Redmondian plot. It's simply a case of some middle-management MS trog going live with a website without running it by the legal department first. Had the MS legal eagles clapped eyes on this concoction before it debuted, there's no way that statement about "owning" licensed software ever would have seen the light of day.
I would be willing to believe this, if it wasn't coming from the legal department of the same company that submitted a doctored videotape as evidence in their antitrust trial.
Microsoft has repeatedly demonstrated that they're not above bending the truth slightly when it's to their advantage, so I refuse to give them the benefit of the doubt in this case.
Oh sure, if enough people complain, they'll throw their hands up, say "Good heavens! What is this? Well, we'll take care of this right away" and set about trying to say the exact same thing ("you are legally required to sell your computer with the operating system it came with") in less inflammatory words.
Jay (=
(Who is glad that the two PCs he owns are self-made -- no worries about which operating system it came with!)
> It is a legal requirement that pre-installed >operating systems remain with a machine for the >life of the machine. If a company or individual >donates a machine to your school, it must be >donated with the operating system that was >installed on the PC.
Maybe someone should notify the BSA/M$ about the US Gov selling surplus computers without the original OS. I've seen then sold by the truck load !
Sure, because all PC's come with either Microsoft Windows or MacOS burned into the hardware. It's not as though you have to pay for them (or access to Internet Explorer), right?
Hmm, as I remember it, a couple of courts have decided otherwise.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Apple has historically been hostile to Apple clones, so that issue has never come up. BTW, if Apple HAD been willing to allow clones, Apple would be the big OS today. Of course, then Steve Jobs would be the "bad guy" instead of Bill Gates!
This is the first time ive posted here so please bear with me After reading the Crap on theyre website about how it was a law that if i buy a dell and then donate it to my local school i must do so with Windoze on it i decided to call a few people and ask around....sorry to sday i got mixed messages from the people i talked to. First i called Dell. the salesman i talked to said it sounded like a load of BS to him but he asked around there anyway and everyone else said it sounded like a load of BS to them too. However when i called Gateway the sales lady there said YES by law you must have the original OS on the Box when you donate it. Not being a lawer or haveing eaten any lawers lately i cant speak fact on this but to me it sounds like a load of Hourseshit. Heres an idea i had . 1.call as many PC Retailers as possable and ask them about this-we will be able toi tell if its BS or not and also might get a few hairs raised at Microsoft in the process 2. call companys and Orgs that deal with donated computers and ask them about this...they might get really ticked at Microsoft as this if its not true does damage to theyre company if people who saw that and desided not to danate computers because of it 3. Email as many companys that deal with donated computers as possable and "make sure they understand the law" by emailing the webpages URL to them and make sure that they understand that if they except a Dell or other PC that came with a windows product without the original OS that a law has been broken.....im sure they legal department will know what to do I would like to thank you for reading this qand ask 1 favor....... im stuck with a 56k modem and a bad connection at that and id like to download a Linux for my computer (selfbuilt ....making sure i dont break the MS Law) :) but with this crap connection i cant get it DLed
Can you suggest a Linux flavor for a newbee thjat wants to wean himself off of MS OSs
and where can i download it (i need a place that will allow DAP Resume or have it chapped into smaller bits to DL) thanks all
STUFF
Dell-1800-www-dell
sales rep said sounds like bull to him
Gateway-1800-846-4208
Ann(Salesperson)-(836 EST)says its illegal to remove the OS and replace it with another OS
Gateway Legal Dept
610 gateway drive north sioux city SD 57049
COMPUTERS FOR LEARNING (Washington DC)-http://www.computers.fed.gov/school/user.asp
1-888-362-7870 (1 pm - 5 pm EST)
Established by Vice President Al Gore and funded by the Dept of Energy, Computers For Learning is a federally operated program designed to streamline the transfer of excess and surplus Federal computer equipment to schools and nonprofit educational organizations
EAST-WEST EDUCATION DEVELOPMENT FOUNDATION
http://www.eastwest.org/
Contact: Wayne D. King / Stephen Farrell
East-West Education Development Foundation
504 Dudley Street
Roxbury, MA 02119
(617) 442-7448 phone
(617) 442-7228 fax
The East-West Education Development Foundation collects donations of used computers, software and peripherals. East West accepts as-is IBM-type PCs, Macs, modems, mice, monitors, printers, cables, and the like. Multisite software also is welcome if the donor can supply original disks and manuals, plus a written OK from the licenser. They recycle and remanufacture them and give them to non-profit organizations and institutions worldwide
Heres more links Use them as you see fit
http://www.microweb.com/pepsite/Recycle/National.h tml
Remember the only thing that stands between Microsoft and future world domination is YOU ...and the fact they cant seem to get a damn thing done right
Hmm, shut up.
The odds of these schools having computers and not running either Windows or Mac OS or both are so extremely low as to make your point completely irrelevant. If the school district were running all Sun or Linux machines, then you'd have to wonder about their sanity in accepting this offer from MS. You'd also have to wonder how they got to be so enlightened in the first place, but now suddenly are kow-towing to Microsoft.
I do not have a signature
If I buy a computer with windows xp installed and split up the hardware among several boxen which computer retains the eula - the one with the hard drive? motherboard? case? or cdrom? Does anyone know?
Sie ist tunbar!
billy boy has a say in it, it comes built (as usual) by me, loaded with software I decide to install (from the debian download apts) whenever I decide I want to install it.....and if it isnt available prebuilt, I can always download to \usr\src and make install nonwindowspackage#1
I just finished teaching a Linux class to several high school teachers/tech people. The State of Maine is undergoing a program that would put Apple laptops into the hands of all 7th graders. The schools have a problem....how to interconnect all of this.
The answer, at least for these folks, is Linux, since Linux supports both CIFS (for now) and Appletalk.
So, donate all of your used PCs to schools in Maine. They need Linux servers!!!!
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
I would like to thank you for reading this qand ask 1 favor....... im stuck with a 56k modem and a bad connection at that and id like to download a Linux for my computer (selfbuilt ....making sure i dont break the MS Law) :) but with this crap connection i cant get it DLed Can you suggest a Linux flavor for a newbee thjat wants to wean himself off of MS OSs and where can i download it (i need a place that will allow DAP Resume or have it chapped into smaller bits to DL)
.bin files there (17 as of 19 Apr). Then (assuming you're downloading with a WinTel system) go here and get rawrite.exe and its instructions, rawrite.txt. If you're not downloading with a wintel machine you'll have to find some other way of getting the .bin files written directly to the floppies (no file system, formatting, or other BS: the images must be written straight to the floppies. If you have access to a Linux or UNIX system use dd. RTFM for dd to learn how it works.
RedHat (arguably our most popular distro) no doubt has a means to download everything you'll need. Alas, they obscure it so you'll buy CDs instead, that's their decision. (Anybody who knows otherwise feel free to correct me.) I've taken to using Debian largely because of apt-get, their nicely automated download and update utility. Other distros no doubt have this stuff by now. SuSE has a thing called YAST & YOU for installing and updating respectively.
My experience is with Deb. Anybody else is free to chirp up with details from other distros.
I'm working under the assumption that you're in the US and looking to install on a new (bare) i386 machine.
You'll need a couple of boxes of floppy disks and a computer with an internet connection and a floppy drive with which to write them. Go to the Debian FTP site and download all the
With all those floppies in hand, read this, which should give you some clue as to what is going on. Use the floppy made from the rescue.bin file to boot your computer. It should ask you for the root.bin disk and one of more of the driver disks. Keep following the directions and you will soon be asked for the 11 base disks. Once these are all loaded, the system will reboot. You should now have a minimal (32MB), working Debian system. It will probaby start dselect for you. You will have to configure and start ppp before you are going to contact anybody. This (setup of ppp) is the second of several rites of passage that all Linux newbies go through (Installation is the first, and you're already through the hardest part of that). It _will_ be painful, but the first time you get it up and ping yer ISP and then the Deb ftp server, the rewarding feeling you will get will be worth it. If it is not, maybe you should get Mandrake or some other super user-friendly distro, Debian may not be for you. Once you have ppp operational you should set dselect's access method to use apt-get from ftp.us.debian.org, which IIRC is the default if you just go through the source setup and let it do its thing. Choose one of the standard installations (do NOT, at this point, get involved in manually picking and choosing from the over 3500 packages available, it'll take you days, and you'll drive yourself crazy), the smaller the better, and let the thing rip. My experience is that it will take about 36 hours to download a smallish installation, but that was on a connection that actually linked at 52Kb. If you're on a slower line (like my present one, which seems unable to do any better than about 26Kb), it will take proportionally longer. If you have problems, reconnect and restart, the download will pick up where it left off. If your phone line is _truly_ bad, to the point where it won't stay connected for any significant length of time, you'll have to find some other way. I recommend contacting your local LUG (Linux Users' Group) for help. They'll very probably have CDs which you can borrow.
When (NOT if) you get stuck, you may mail me describing your status, and I'll try to help. Please get as far as getting the seventeen floppies written and ready to boot your system with them first, though, if you can't get that far you'll need professional help.
In return for this (ongoing) help and consultation I've a favor to ask of you: LEARN TO FSCKING _SPELL_!!! LEARN TO CAPITALIZE THE NOMINATIVE SINGULAR PRONOUN "I"!!! LEARN THE PROPER USE OF THE APOSTROPHE AND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "THEIR", "THEY'RE", AND "THERE", AND LEARN TO _PROPERLY_ SPELL THIS SENTENCE: "THEYRE GOING OVER THEYRE TO THEYRE CAR"!!! No, "theyre" is NOT in either the American OR British English dictionaries, because IT'S A MISSPELLING!! I don't care if you _are_ a product of American public schools' "outcome based education", and have been taught "invented spelling" since you were six, in the real world, poor spelling and grammar skills make you look like an idiot no matter how profound your ideas may be. I read through your entire post because you had something interesting to say, but your lowercase "i"s, poor spelling, and total lack of apostrophes nearly caused me to give up. I'm sure that many others did give up, or skipped your post entirely after only a few lines.
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
>This is just not true. Not in any way. Right of first sale says I can do ANYTHING i damn well please with a physical item I
> purchased. If I want to take the computer apart and sell each individual circuit, I can. That includes not including origional license
> to the OS that came with it.
Don't go there.. you are dissaeembling a piece of hardare, isn't that curcumventing the intended design and purpose of the equipment???
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
Strange maybe.... I don't know about the modified version of CDE. If you are talking about 4Dwm then we agree. Very few window managers are as well executed as that one is.
As for IRIX, it just works and works. (Suffering a bit of an application shortage at the moment tho.)
Blogging because I can...
I was referring specifically to the statement regarding "owning" the software. The EULA specifically, and with great emphasis, states you do NOT own the software -- you LICENSE it -- specifically so that MS retains control over it. As soon as an MS lawyer claps eyes on that all hell's gonna break loose in Redmond. There is no way in hell MS would ever admit you OWN their software. It would be the end of their business model.
The rest of your post I agree with.
Id wager he knows a *lot* about airline safety. he managed to defeat it several times...
like taking political advice from Osama... now that id agree with.
-- "It's tough to run with both feet stuck in your mouth" - Zoe's evil side
If someone buys a used PC that had windows on it, it'll probably just crash within two days anyway...then the purchaser would have to install something else anyway...perhaps a version of windows they bought off the shelf??
Windows.....just another pane in the glass.....