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The original story was that he died in some kind of defiant last stand, guns blazing.

Then it turned out there were no guns - he was unarmed.

Then it turned out that he wasn't shot in the head, but "above the neck, and let's leave it at that".

One can't help but wonder if what they really have on those picks looks something like this (NSFW and all that).

Personally I don't care all that much how he got killed (though I think that they should have captured him alive if possible for pragmatical reasons). But this would really help the propaganda efforts of his associates if he died that way.

How many political prisoners are too many? 1? 10? 100? thousands? At what point do you remember where you left your soul? PRC runs political slave labor camps, and now MS is thinking maybe they should have some ethical standards? What a bunch of useful idiots. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai Although, you don't really need to hit that link, you just need to know that the "see also" section includes "gulag". http://www.laogai.org/news/index.php

Yep, Google did evil in China...but that's a totally different discussion.

No, it's part of my point. Left-wingers act "bravely" when attacking entities that are extremely unlikely to do them harm (ie, the American federal government or America in general) and are sychophantic with entities that wouldn't think twice about murdering anyone who gets in their way (the terrorist-sponsoring, nuclear-bomb-building Iranian theocracy, Islamic terrorists in general, Castro's librarian-jailing dictatorship, the ChiCom dictatorship and its laogai but to a lesser extent now that their economics are going capitalist, the Soviets back in the day, etc).

The irony is that if we right-wingers really were the bastards the Left makes us out to be we wouldn't have to listen to so much whining. If Rumsfeld really were a mass murderer, maybe trustafarians would wear trendy T-shirts glorifying him instead of Che.

So Google "stands up" to the Bush administration and capitulates to the ChiComs, then in typical liberal fashion gives a useless apology for the latter afterwards.

Perhaps we'll find out that they actually torture prisoners in secret locations to fight the war on terror, similiar as China tortures a diverse range of seperatists for their own "war on terror"

You know why media reports about Gitmo have been scarce lately? Some bright military public affairs officer told the "journalists" that they were actually looking at Castro's prisons where he tortures pro-democracy dissidents and librarians and they lost all interest.

China's gulag system is called Laogai. If you're Chinese, live in mainland China, and think that "one man, one vote" is a good idea, there's a good chance you'll get up close and personal with the laogai system.

Meanwhile, Western leftists think that the occasional terrorist mass murderer getting slapped around is much more worthy of attention and support than peaceful political dissidents in leftist dictatorships, even dictatorships that have strayed from the "faith" like China.

You people are incapable of a sense of proportion, aren't you?

And how many extrajudicial executions still happen in China? How about the laogai? Buy something at Wal-Mart lately? Well it could have been made with slave^H^H^H^H^Hprison labor. Tibet, the Uhigurs in Western China, the censorship of the internet, their bellicosity toward Taiwan, aborting babies because they're girls and more. Oh and they pretty much let their hackers take pot shots at the US' infrastructure with maybe a slap on the wrist.

The US, EU and Japan aren't perfect, but they are a lot better than China. For my money, I blame it on the "middle kingdom complex." Let's be realistic, China doesn't even really pretend to care about any law other than what it creates, and even that is flimsy as there are numerous loopholes for the state to get out of trouble with. China isn't going to really do anything to stop spammers unless it means they might not get the 2008 olympics or they might lose their MFN status in the US and neither of those will happen over spam.

Move on kids, this is just another feel good thing by the politicians. Nothing to see here that you couldn't see on C-Span.

Why don't you spend some time here and decide if you still think Ben Franklin was wrong.

China seems to have achieved the social stability and unity of purpose normally associated with totalitarianism, without sacrificing the rising standards of living afforded by capitalism. It's actually a pretty cool model.

Oh yeah, really cool.

I still think Hong Kong had the best model, right before the ChiComs took over. Minimalist but competent government, simple 15% flat tax (complexity == corruption when it comes to laws), and at least near-American standard of living. Damned if I know how the system could be replicated.

The West still has a political requirement to appear free and capitalistic, but is increasingly becoming more statist.

Sadly I have to agree here, but I disagree with the reasons. I'd blame an overabundance of lawyers (and the resulting defenses against them) and the natural tendency of bureaucracies to grow and their members to vote themselves more resources. Too many Republican politicians (including our President) have given up fighting these trends and are trying to co-opt them instead (the "No Child Left Behind" act, etc). It's driving right-wingers like me nuts. Remember the 1994 "Contract with America"? We lost, statism won.

Recent (now suppressed) *Chinese government* studies have shown that over 80 million people died in "The Great Leap Forward" and "The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution". To date, no real admissions have been made. The recent 'improvements' have been superficial. China still runs huge prison camps with millions of slave laborers, many incarcerated without trial, (and trials in China are often shams) and keeps millions of its citizens in a second-class citizenship internal-exile 'peasant' status, and these people are prohibited from moving or getting good jobs..and if they do try to move to cities, they have no legal rights..

Plus, China sends tens of thousands of starving North Korean refugees back to North Korea (often to be summarily executed for the 'treason' of trying to flee Kim Jong Il's 'paradise'.) in violation of international law..

Birds of a feather, flock together... (North Korea is, by far, the WORST human rights situation on Earth)

And they also execute thousands of people a year, more than any other country, (except for North Korea) and sell their organs.. Often, they do a tissue match first, and execute the prisoners with the best match.. Isn't that creepy?

Whoever says China is not a country with barbaric human rights practices.. man, that is some serious denial going on...

Even the `poor' in the US have televisions, refrigerators, a car or two, and often a computer. These are things that even the middle classes in China often can only dream of, while the poor of China live in a state of squalor completely unknown in the US (and they make up much more than twenty percent of the population there).

As for the homeless, not only has the actual number of homeless persons not increased substantially in over a decade, the larger picture here is that 80%-90% of those who are homeless in the US are homeless due to mental illness or drug abuse -- any who are willing to work here can get themselves off the streets in pretty short order.

The same cannot be said for the homeless of China, never mind the inmates of the vast prison camps of the Laogai.

Anyway, I strongly suspect that anyone who, like you, defends the crushing of unarmed protesters at Tianenmen is a troll. Are you?

If America is free, why did 3 muslim men who were American citizens get detained because someone accused them of laughing at the events of 9/11.

Oh yes, the Florida police investigating (and releasing) someone accused of planning a bombing attack is just like the Chinese police investigating (and torturing, and killing) people accused of saying something the government doesn't like. Oh wait, no it's not.

Ever hear of TIPS, the turn in your neighbor program here in the US?

Oh yes, asking citizens who may have information about upcoming terrorist attacks to contact the police so that this information can be investigated under the framework of due process is just like spying on people so that they can be hauled away if they say something the government doesn't like. Oh wait, no it's not.

Try organizing a revolt in the US and the government will run you over with tanks also.

Oh yes, arresting people who plan terrorist attacks (I welcome you to point to anyone being `run over with tanks') is just like slaughtering unarmed protesters with tanks because they dare to ask for elections to be held. Oh wait, no its not.

Censorship, you do not think the US censors!!! The whole war on terrorism is beign censored. The truth about 9/11 is being censored. Speak out too loudly against the US government and you will also be censored

This is simply a lie. I welcome you to point to a single example of anyone in the US being censored.

And I'm just dying to hear what you think the `truth about 9/11' is.

possibly detained forever under the new patriot act.

More nonsense. Show me anything in USA PATRIOT that allows anything of the sort.

Communism works in china because the Chinese culture has always been about China coming first.

Sure, as long as your definition of `works' is `starves hundreds of millions of people, murders millions more, and locks tens of millions more in the Laogai (prison camps for political dissidents) while providing a lower standard of living than any democracy in the world.

The rest of your post is simply hilarious in the post-1989 world. I didn't know there were still people dumb enough to buy that shit. Oh well...

What (the other) AC said. Trying to suggest that the US is `just like China, man' only shows that you're not very familiar with either. Start here to see what I mean.

For the rest, there's the Laogai.

But then, your sig gives away the real point of your post. It must really burn you up to see Russia coming into it's own as a Western power, eh?

How is this different from corporate control?

Well, for starters, Ted Turner's Castro News Network can't have you thrown into the gulag for watching Rupert Murdoch's Fox News.

See laogai.org, etc.

You may mean cases where political and religious freedom were `restricted'. I meant (and said) religious and political persecution.

The tens of thousands in the laogai (Chinese forced labor camps for political and religious dissidents) would surely argue that their freedoms have been more than `restricted'. So would the many more who have been murdered, had they only the chance.

Yesterday was the anniversary of the brutal crackdown at Tianenmen. I ask that you not dishonor the unarmed protesters murdered on that day by playing semantic games with their suffering.

For more information on the Chinese government's record on human rights, visit Harry Wu's site. He also has a book Bitter Winds : A Memoir of My Years in China's Gulag - Harry Wu which talks about his experiences as a political prisoner.

I'm not particularly familiar with Cuba, but this site seems a reasonable place to start research.

Hey if we start acting like the industrious chinese workers maybe we will create a society based on those two exact principles.

This article is nothing more than Hegel rehashed. This sort of thinking is the same thing that led to National Socialism, Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, and all the other despotic regimes of the twentieth and twenty-first centuries. rusty has fundamentally misunderstood Jefferson's words in the U.S. Declaration of Independence. If the rights of man exist purely as social construct, there is no reason at all to have any moral qualm with Nazism, the Gulag, the Laogai, or any other tyranny. Harry Wu is far better reading than this drivel.