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USPS Service Kiosks Taking Pictures of Customers
NW writes "According to FOIA documents obtained by EPIC new Postal Service self-service postage machines take portrait-style photographs of customers and retain them for 30 days." IBM is the contractor behind the kiosks. Note that the kiosk is supposed to not complete the transaction if it determines the photograph has been compromised, so simply covering the camera is unlikely to work. As the cost of cameras and digital storage approaches zero, is it inevitable that every machine you interact with will take your photograph and store it?
How about wearing GWB rubber mask? or even Nixon for that matter.
Return of the ex-presidents.
This is not the sig you are looking for...
Now let's all overreact as if there aren't cameras watching you in almost every store these days.
So does this mean that a paper bag over the head is not just for sex anymore?
People couldn't type. We realized: Death would eventually take care of this.
A privacy issue my g/f will care about. She hates having her photo taken!
with one of those big ass Barbie(tm) Heads. Or better yet - a Barbie head with a Bin Ladin mask...
Catch the criminals from fradulent ebay sellers to anthrax package hoaxers.
I mean, think of all those terrorists that are sending massive shipments of weapons and chemicals via USPS kiosks.
"Lemme see, here. 200 pound, 6'x6' box, so I'll need about $300 in stamps..."
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Clearly this is simply because USPS wants to make their own version of hotornot
It's to catch the terrorists, you see. We'll never violate your privacy (because you have none now).
The stamps were printed with my portrait on them.
What is the point of this? I mean really, who is going to try to knock over a stamp machine. It's not exactly an ATM.
... to workers going postal: shooting the automated kiosks...
Our new surveillance overlords...
If it can prevent crimes/terrorism, or at give the authorities a clue on who did sent what, i dont have a problem about getting my picture take.. Its already on dozens of other surveillance videos, and I havent seen people complaining about that..
I think the 30 day storage timeframe is pretty optimistic.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
Big brother is watching, and to make things worse he's storing all his data on windows -.-
I certainly hope they're going to be putting extra hardening on those machines...
Don't take the above poster too seriously. He doesn't.
No, but as michael keeps posting paranoid left-wing drivel as commentary to each story to the front page of slashdot, it's inevitable that I and a lot of other people will stop reading it.
Why can't I just send a fucking package without having my picture taken especially without the kiosk having a 5'x5' sign in blinking neon that it is doing so?
Personally I want to be able to send a vibrating, two headed dildo, in the USPS mail to a random recipient without having the Post Office opening the packaging thinking it is a bomb because of the way I look.
He's right, the commentary is stupid. Nobody seems to care that their picture is taken in almost every store they go into and every time they go to an ATM.
...taking a picture is believed by some to steal the soul, I'm sure seperation of church and state will take care of this eventually.
This is a good idea. Any "honest" type wouldn't mind. Especially since if you are at the ATM and the robber types know they would get there mug shots while in the act of crime, they might just leave you alone.
So say "cheese" next time your infront of the machine and for gods sake keep the zipper up and the shirt on.
I am very interested in why people would be trying to figure out how to defeat this setup. It seems like the only people who would need to not be photographed are going to be causing trouble. There should be no expectation of privacy when you're in public mailing something.
THIS ACCOUNT IS OFFICIALLY RETIRED/RETARDED.
I don't know how anyone could claim that this is a necessary invasion of privacy. Taking pictures of us while we're sending mail? How often is the mail used in incidents of terrorism? Definitely not often enough to warrant photographing anyone who tries to send a package, and making it so that the machine doesn't work if you won't let your picture be properly taken.
Say your branch IS used for terrorist activities. Say a mail bomb, or anthrax threat. You can bet that if you're an arab you're going to be getting a visit from the FBI.
... Would they be able to implement this? I live in a small, remote area. If they do, unless they're very agressive, it'll be at least three years before I see one. So, criminals, come use my local post office!
Probably a request made by the Dept of Homeland Security to potentially identify those trying to send bombs and bio/chem packages through the mail. As it is now a terrorist can mail a package overnight across the US and that package will most likely end up on a domestic airliner unscreened. A bomb with an altimeter detonator could really grind US airtraffic to a halt.
of counsiling anyone who has to look at these pictures and realize how ugly we all are? Who hear goes to the post office dressed for success? Who? Tell me? I see that hand in the back row, thank you sir. The horror. The horror.
When you use these machines, you no longer have to wait in line and goto the counter to mail anything that weighs over 16oz; you can mail items up to 70lbs without ever having to see a postal clerk. I suspect its to keep people from mailing things that they shouldn't.
Someone who looks like you purchased stamps!.
I'm a huge privacy advocate and all, but it's not like this can be put to some nefarious use. The only two potential issues I can see:
The first is a policy matter, and writing to the appropriate Congresscritters and your local Postmaster will likely go a long way toward ensuring such a notice exists. The second is a matter of inconvenience, but since stamps are still available from third-party vendors and USPS counters, it shouldn't be a big issue.
We may not imagine how our lives could be more frustrating and complex—but Congress can. – Cullen Hightower
you're buying postage stamps and they want to photograph you??? wtf for??? are they frightened you might be posting anthrax spores to someone and want to be able to track everyone who bought postage stamps in the last few day??? or you're posting drugs to someone??? or posting unsolicited bulk mail??? is there no privacy anymore???
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
Since stamps are readily convertible into cash at face value or near, I would expect similar protection on stamp machines as I would for cash machines...
500GB of disk, 5TB of transfer, $5.95/mo
Everyone gets robbed sometime, so we shouldn't complain about it. Especially when the electric company won't keep our power on, if they can't steal something when they drop by to read the meter.
--
make install -not war
of me picking my nose.
Wanna keep some shred of privacy while purchasing you postage for your parcel, and have a good time doing it? Wear a mask! Preferrably one of a long-dead celebrity. Favorites include:
Herbert Hoover (cross-dressing spy)
Stalin (All-around nice guy)
Benjamin Franklin (First Postmaster General of the US)
"In a 32-bit world, you're a 2-bit user. You've got your own newsgroup, alt.total.loser." -Weird Al
all ATM's have cameras that constantly record the user using the ATM. what is the difference between the two?
At my local main post office downtown, the workers like to stand by the machine and "help" the hapless public that apparently cannot use a self-service kiosk by itself. Thus, this machine in particular must have thousands of portraits of the post office staff.
in dealing with their frigging BROKEN postage kiosks!
I'd rather have an actual photograph of myself (or, more to the point, *not* of me) than rely on eye witness testimony...
Of course if you're into mail fraud or anthrax then this just might affect you, sorry.
How about just going to the front desk and asking for stamps? Or go to a packaging store and ask for stamps? As for 'storing every persons photo in every self service machine' that souunds a little extreme (it would be a bitch to manage), and if you really dont want to deal with having you picture taken everywhere, use the internet to purchase all the stuff you need.
Now I have to pull my tinfoil hat down over my whole face!
Could someone please explain why the government feels the need to have pictures of people on file like this? This is crazy.
I'm reminded of Aldous Huxley's 1984. This is the first step toward telescreens!
As tech savvy people, we need to get the word out about this and put these sorts of invasions of privacy to a stop. Making the citizen the object of state knowledge is the first step toward subjugation and elimination of freedom.
As an open source programmer, gun owner, and opponent of the current political order, I see this as a direct attack on my civil liberties that must be dealt with at once. The government has already tried to take our constitutionally protected rights to bear arms. Give them a couple years and Microsoft will be using their own private telescreens to weed out dissident hackers and sending them to "reprogramming camps" in the Carribean.
Well, I'll pass on the rum drink thank you! Get out there and stop these fascists!
A Proud Member of the Reality Oriented Community.
First, this is frighteningly similar to something out of 1984. It IS a violation of our rights to force us to have our picture taken to complete a transaction. (Everyone is free to disagree here.) All I should need to buy something is cash in hand.
Second, David Brin's books, Kiln People and Earth demonstrate a future where such surveilance is commonplace. They are suppose to be the future and I thought they were well off in the future (though Dr. Brin probably did not) but it appears I was wrong.
On the other hand, maybe he'll attract groupies in tinfoil hats. I've used that machine - and I think it's great. I had no idea it had a camera though....
I hate the 9 to 5 world - I need to send packages out for my side job, and now I dont have to piss my day job boss off to do it. Just have to find a ski mask now...
remember when it was {of|for|by} the people?
I'm unsure how I feel about this. On one hand, I value my privacy, and I dislike such intrusions.
On the other hand, I value the freedom of public places, and the freedom to take pictures of whatever you wish.
It boils down to an argument I had with a friend of mine a while back. We were in a public place, and a third party took a picture of him. He became furious, and demanded that the person take no more picture, nor distribute the one he had already taken. (The third party was not known to either of us; he wasn't just some stranger)
Now, I calmly explained to my friend that, since he was in a public place, he had no reasonable expectation of privacy, and that the other person could indeed take his picture whether he liked it or not. I cited prior cases and current laws regarding such things. (I'd recently done research for a class on just that topic.)
He became even more angry. "I don't care about his rights. He has a right to be an asshole, but that doesn't mean he should be! I don't want my picture taken!"
The guy took his picture again for good measure (nice shot of an angry face), and we all walked away chuckling.
To further muddy the waters, consider that digital photography, like p2p applications and globalization, is fast-growing and un-stoppable. There's no magical way to prevent someone from taking your picture. In the end, your picture can be taken whether you like it or not, and there's nothing you can do about it.
I don't believe that people have a right to privacy, but I do believe that people have a right to protect their privacy as best they can within the confines of reasonable law.
My friend, for example, could avoid public places and close his curtains, but he could not assault photographers.
Public places are just that: public. Whether you like it or not, people can see and record your actions.
Then again, this isn't just a person: it's a government entity. Should corporations/governments have the same rights as individual people? What if this were a private company, instead of the USPS? Would that make the issue any different?
What if it was just some guy standing near USPS boxes taking pictures of people?
It's a complicated issue with no simple answers.
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and don't forget to hold up signs by your face that say, "I see you too buddy!"
Just a boy doing unproffesional IT work that's way above his head.
If you are going to break in, you will just cover the camera. The value of things bought from the kiosk can't be that much. And the hope of catching a mailer of pipe bomb or laced letter must be nil. People are sending laced letters because it is the only thing you can put in an anonymous letter box.
This is worse than not allowing men to wear hats in a bank. Is every women in a shawl going to be a suspect. Is every man in a large coat going to be arrested. Next thing you know they are going to deman that everyone must be topless to buy a stamp. That would make the sicko government officials happpy. Fratboys in every level of government, a keg party on the capital.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Do you cry everytime you go to an ATM too or do you just avoid going outside at all for fear that the evil picture monsters will get your soul?
OK. So explain to me how this is left wing drivel? I mean, the Right are the people who historically are interested in less government interference in the lives of normal people. It's the guys on the left with their bigger government/control everything mentality who should be happy about this.
So isn't this then technically right wing drivel?
People couldn't type. We realized: Death would eventually take care of this.
Wow, the terrorists would never think to use a FedEx drop-box instead. I'm sure glad to live in a country that is doing such smart things to keep me safe.
If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out? - Will Rogers
As the cost of cameras and digital storage approaches zero, is it inevitable that every machine you interact with will take your photograph and store it?
Yes, it is inevitable. Dammit.
Thank God the cost of anal probes and specimen storage is not approaching zero.
- kgj
-kgj
Come on, you knew it was happening. Remember the last time you were about to buy stamps from the machine and suddenly that guy ran out, combed your hair, then set up a big prop picture of a bookshelf filled with books behind you?
Agree:) What's the point of the picture if it's deleted before USPS delivers the package :)
Is it inevitable that the door will hit you in the ass or will you be moving quicker?
I think George Orwell was the 20th century Nostradamus.
- Just my $0.02, take with a grain of salt, your mileage may vary.
Right - More government in personal matters, less in business and financial regulation.
Left - Less government in personal matters, heavy restrictions on business and finance.
However both major US parties these days are a jumbled mix of both, really.
Possibly. I used to work for a company that is developing a device that will take your picture when you place a package in a FedEx drop box. The hardware to do this is not expensive. Designing it so that it's difficult to circumvent is the real challenge.
If so that will be cool, just like on rollercoasters. People will get to see the reaction on their face they get from buying stamps to the extreme.
God spoke to me.
I'm reminded of Aldous Huxley's 1984.
That's George Orwell's 1984. Aldous Huxley wrote Brave New World, the funnier dystopia with all the sex and drugs and "feelies".
Da Blog
No, don't you realize that it's left-wing drivel because the poster fancies himself as some sort of paragon of right-wing virtue and, since he disagrees with something he seems to have read into the commentary, it must be left-wing drivel.
There was Cowboy Neal at the wheel of a bus to never-ever land.
This gets mod'ed as insightful? Since when is it paranoid or left wing not to want to be photographed for every freaking little thing?
I and a lot of other people will stop reading it.
Gosh, what a shame that would be. Apparently only Fox News is the only fair and balanced news source in your book.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
What about religious head coverings? Will people be refused this servuice because of burkas?
What's the point of photographing the people who buy stamps? It's not like, when a stamp is used to commit a crime, you can track it back to the photo by serial number. Unless...
Anyone taken a very close look at a stamp recently?
The robotic USPS employees with cameras embedded in their eye sockets have been taking your picture for years.
Read any good sonnets lately?
than people realize.
If you have one of those shopping cards, they can track your purchases. If you travel, you're photographed at every point, especially in Europe. If you buy stamps, your photographed. Welcome to the US police state. Orwell may have written fiction, but damn if it isn't coming to fruition.
I voted for Bush, but I have since had many second thoughts on why I did. I have voted Republican since I was 18, thinking that voting for lowering my taxes, having a small government, etc. would be beneficial. Bush is now performing a power grab unlike anything in history, US or foreign. It's scary as hell.
On a side note, I know a guy that works for a major East Coast ISP. He tells me that during the course of his working there over the last several years, that it is becoming more commonplace for employers doing background checks on potential employers to contact ISPs and request surfing logs . Believe it or not. So now, in addition to having employers run a credit check, they are now delving into what you may be surfing to see if you are trustworthy in their eyes. Sick and invasive. I can understand this if one is going through a securit clearance, but to work in the average job?
Wow... I need to buy my own private island.
I'm on the left and I don't like it. The left-right spectrum is kinda broken in a lot of ways. We have left-wingers like myself who support universal health care but think this idea is invasion of privacy just like I think preventing two people to marry no matter their sex is an invasion of privacy. It's not as simple as left-right anymore (if it ever was).
Well this should really cut down on the amount of spam mail.
Why not sell the picture while you're at it? I'd gladly give up one of Sacagawea dollar coings from my change!
You only use 2% of your DNA
Stand at attention, maggot!
On one hand, I value my privacy, and I dislike such intrusions.
Oh, we know what's in your hand, boo-boo, when you're in private. No need to clarify, Sparky. Now get on those knees and give me twenty!
It's a complicated issue with no simple answers.
Hah! Typical! We can't ba having this sort of mamby-pamby, nancy-boy, wibbly-wobbly, clap-trap, hoo-hah here, toots! Youse either for it or agains'it. This is Slashdot! Global repository of supergeniuses like "gamerdood69" and "spoogloriousspoo193" and "wileycoyoteesq"! No mistakes are made here! You will bow to the monochromatic wisdom!
So get your wet panties out of their twist, girlie, and pick your side.
--- Ban humanity.
Has there been a run of stamp-machines getting broken into? All of the stamp-machines locally are in post offices, which have video cameras in every corner anyway.
For that matter, is this a real privacy issue? Considering that you can buy stamps online, in your local hallmark store, or even through the mail to a P.O. box, I'm not too concerned about the post office taking my picture.
Now if they start putting cameras on the soda machines, then I'll get upset. And I won't even bring up the condom dispenser question...
Oops. Too Late.
Umm...Since you're complaining about the camera's in the stamp machines. How do you feel about the ATM taking your picture? It's been happening for years. It's even caught some crimminals.
In case you didn't know/realize it, ATMs (Automated Teller Machines) have been taking your picture for over 20 years...
The retention times for those pictures vary with the institution, but it could conceivably be years...
I worked for Diebold back in the 80s and on an almost weekly basis I was tasked with operating the video gear for bank security and FBI investigators...
Goofy, Geeky Gifts and More!
I don't have a face!
Personally I want to be able to send a vibrating, two headed dildo, in the USPS mail to a random recipient without having the Post Office opening the packaging thinking it is a bomb because of the way I look.
You forgot to send batteries too you bastard!
That said, this does not seem to tbe point of such photo taking, as 30 days is probably an unreasonably short time to hold the photos for such purposes.
. . . taking your picture as you are standing in front of a urinal. It isn't like they don't already automatically flush the toilet. What keeps them from taking your picture.
Wait, . . . facial recognition of middle easterners . . . while takin' a piss before blowing themselves up . . . Would that be considered profiling?
Can't believe I wasted my mod points on a story before this one.
"Enough of this wretched, whining monkey life." -- Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_, Book 9, 37
The kiosks in question aren't stamp machines (which have been around for 40 years or more), but a complete self-service post office. You can buy postage, mail letters, mail small packages, etc. It takes credit cards, paper currency and coins.
In other words, it *is* a lot like an ATM.
Damn it! Is there no place left where a loving couple can make out and not have to worry about showing up on www.hotpostallove.com? Seriously though, not surprised. It even makes sense on some level. There is not an actual person that sees you shipping a package so the next best thing is a camera that does. Say the Unabomber breaks out of jail, now we can be sure there is always a witness.
Great, just another part of the machine that will break. Oh how I love going to the post office and finding the machines broken.
With IBM acting as the contractor... will/does it run Linux?
Personally I want to be able to send a vibrating, two headed dildo, in the USPS mail to a random recipient
If you'd want to try an international destination I know this... person in Canada... eh?
Trolling is a art,
It may be paranoid but it's not "left wing". Lefties would WANT the gubmint keeping track of everything. Gee, I thought Righties were against gubmint intervention in everyone's daily life. It's funny how the modern times have completely reversed the Left/Right concept.
I'm sure "SlashdotMedia" will improve on all the wonders that Dice Holdings blessed us all with
Are they nice portraits? Soft focus and candlelight? Can I get a couple 8x10's with me in my sexiest lingerie? Can they remove the mole near my [WORD DELETED BY THE FCC]? Oh, I feel all a twitter!
--- Ban humanity.
In a way, this is an advance for privacy. Why shouldn't a private company be able to record a transaction freely entered? Because they abuse the record, sharing it, and invading privacy beyond the shared private event that they recorded. The 30 day limit is a good start - all personal information, whether required for the transaction or not, must be expired, by the end of the express transaction, or a short time later, whichever is shorter. That's the basis for the kind of copyright protection on personal info we need to enforce. UPS is within their rights to use this kind of recording to complete a secure transaction, but not if the safeguards for the info supplier are solely voluntary, inconsistent with a common practice, or without consequence when ignored. But the expiration does demonstrate to other corporations that protecting personal info rights is consistent with both security and competitive profitability.
--
make install -not war
What would the camera's response be to you holding a placard that's a photo of another person in front of you? How would it know it was compromised? And how hard would it be to set up a webcam to mimic the setup so you could even present a photo that looked like a correct perspective of that location.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
Kiosk cameras are nothing new. There was damn great obvious one in the photo booth I used the other day.
Close, lefties want the gov't keeping track of businesses and righties want laissez faire while lefties want the gov't out of personal matters and righties want the gov't to tell me what sexual positions are okay and when and where I have the freedom to be free from gov't imposed religion, etc. It's all about what kind of intervention you're talking about.
There was Cowboy Neal at the wheel of a bus to never-ever land.
whackos. Etc, etc, etc.
Best Slashdot Co
you are one stupid naive idiot
I worked on the software (the retail bit of it, not the bit that takes photographs - when I was on the project, that bit wasn't even there) for this piece of kit.
We had some great fun with the coin machine. We had bags of coins plus the coin/bill acceptor for testing. When work had been going on too long, I used to like emptying the acceptor of everything but pennies, then buying a 1c stamp with a $20 bill. The thing went off like a machine gun firing out pennies, it was friggin' cool.
It also did a bit of a Las Vegas style jackpot dispense with all of them full - in change it could give (IIRC, it was 1998 when I worked on the software for the pilot) quarters, nickels, pennies and Susan B dollars. (It didn't dispense dimes. I was told because dime dispensing is unreliable, and the machine tended to choke on them). Again, 1c stamp with a $20 bill, and Ker-ching - it simultaneously fired coins from all four coin stores.
At least I worked out what to do with surfeit pennies - instead of keeping them in a jar or bagging them up and paying one of those machines to count them, you can spend 1c coins in the postal vending machines (or could when I was working on them). Great way of getting rid of your shrapnel.
BTW: Whenever you take a package to a post office, if it's got IBM kit, you're using my code. I wrote the scale driver (amongst other things).
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
The left generally keeps out of people's private lives, but has a record of getting more involved in limiting the rights of organizations - businesses, etc. The right generally does have a record of interfering in people's private lives, proposing laws on sex, on what you do with your bodies, proposing funding for imposing a set of beliefs on people, etc, but is more liberal when it comes to the rights of organizations (except trade unions, they *hate* trade unions.)
When the left talks about systems to enlarge government, it tends to do so about replacing corrupt private groups with accountable public bodies (it may be flawed in doing so, but that's the mentality), rarely about making individuals change their private behaviour. When the right talks about systems to enlarge government, it tends to talk about more draconian penalties for breaking laws, about passing morality laws, and about making security more intrusive and bureaucratic.
When most on the left talk about reducing government, they talk about giving individuals rights. When the right in America talks about reducing government, they usually talk about giving regional bodies such as the States more rights, simply transfering rights from one government to another, in some cases giving those governments more extreme rights than the national government had. The perfect government for a left winger provides social security (pensions, welfare, possibly healthcare), a public, accountable, infrastructure, and some semblance of security and law and order, on a national or international level. The perfect government for the right provides military security on a national level, and draconian neo-fascist religion-imposing governments on a State level. I know which I'd prefer.
And yes, I'm aware there are those on the left who occasionally stray in to the territory of the right, but there equal numbers who do vice versa.
Always amuses me to hear right wingers pretend to be "pro-liberty". Kind of like the Confederate States didn't go to war over slavery, oh no, they were "pro-States Rights". No they *@$%ing weren't, they were panicing because a law they'd imposed on free states forcing free states to return escaped slaves was about to be overturned, a probable harbringer for an eventual end to slavery. What the hell was "pro-States Rights" about that?
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Based upon the actual article, it appears that the system is designed to accept credit/debit cards. When you go to an ATM to use your card, the system automatically takes your picture as part of a fraud prevention system. These new terminals basically do the same thing (it's also worth noting that they do this even on stamp purchases, where they won't have any information about how the stamps are used, just who used the credit card).
Of course, you start electing politicians that want intervention at various levels on both sides, you get the worst of both worlds: Intervention everywhere.
I'm sure "SlashdotMedia" will improve on all the wonders that Dice Holdings blessed us all with
Personally I want to be able to send a vibrating, two headed dildo, in the USPS mail to a random recipient without having the Post Office opening the packaging thinking it is a bomb because of the way I look.
And you, in particular, are why we need this new system.
Word. Peace.
This post encoded with ROT26. If you can read it, you've violated the DMCA. Handcuffs please, sergeant.
On the day of Smith's execution, the person who gave Smith $20 and a bottle of Thunderbird to send the package laughs a slow, evil laugh and heaves a sigh of relief.
The end. And everyone lived happily ever after &c. The solution to this problem is improved scanning of cargo to be loaded onto planes, not a wholesale violation of civil liberties. Either that or accept that having a free and open society has its dangers and consider those dangers as the price of a better quality of life.
-b.
Just wear a trenchcoat to cover your body and stockings to cover your face :-D
What could go wrong?
Get paid to code OSS
I completely agree. Trying to quantify a political leaning on a one dimensional scale is fundamentally flawed. There is far more to politics than simply left-right. I particularly like the system used at politicalcompass.org.
Santa's suicide mission go!
ever hear of a "Groucho Marx" mask?
So put your tinfoil hat on, print your label & postage online, then drop your package off at the post office, or schedule a pickup from their website.
Really, if it freaks you out to know that they take your picture and can match it with your address, simply remove that possibility from the equation!
The unsig!
the kiosk is supposed to not complete the transaction if it determines the photograph has been compromised
Ummm... doesn't this mean the system has some kind of face recognition?
No, but as michael keeps posting paranoid left-wing drivel as commentary
This gets mod'ed as insightful? Since when is it paranoid or left wing not to want to be photographed for every freaking little thing?
You're right. up to about ~5 years ago, paranoia about cameras everywhere was an exclusively right-wing redneck paranoia.
Insufficient human checking of the stamps. You could put all sorts of stuff on those stamps...
Best Slashdot Co
Please keep in mind:
1984 is NOT a HOW-TO!
Grundgesetz * 23. Mai 1949 - 30. November 2007 - http://www.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/
If IBM was the contractor:
A) it doesn't work
B) its probably not finished yet
C) it cost so much it will be scrapped at the next budget meeting.
I can't even count the number of projects I've seen bungled by IBM Global Services.
The "I'm an honest person so, I don't care" argument is very old and most analogies, such as yours, are lost on such people. The best analogy I have heard so far is much simpler.
Ask them how they would feel if they were sitting in a restaurant and someone at the next table was staring directly at them the entire time. Most people find this very disconcerting and sometimes react with great hostility. That is how I feel when someone, the government or otherwise, is constantly recording my activities no matter where I go. I don't have to be hiding something to not like being stared at.
When presented with this scenario, most people begin to understand and are less likely to present the "I'm an honest person" retort.
The kiosk at my local post office is clearly labeled that pictures are being taken. Contrast that to the "black balls" you see hanging from the ceiling at most retail stores now.
...that ATM cameras are there for the CUSTOMER's protection (and the money, of course). If a robber takes your card, or forces you to use it at knifepoint, the bank gets a picture of them. Like a steering wheel club, it's a simple deterrence system. Furthermore, ATM cameras aren't much of a privacy invasion, because the bank already knows who you are the moment you insert the card.
Last time I checked, no one was being held up at stamp machines. The only purpose is so the government can track who is using the mail.
Get it?
Moderate me down all you want, but if you can honestly say and I havent seen people complaining about that. than you're a moron who just hasn't been paying attention. I guess this is the new lie of the "uber-big brother" set, claim that no one cared what you did before to try to excuse further erosion of privacy, as well as labeling anyone who tries to protect their privacy as a kook or a terrorist.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
You must not have used XP. Mine's been up continuously since I bought it on Labour Day weekend.
if it's the stamp machines, or the self-serve kiosks that are imaging us. If the latter, I can see the need. Those things can be used to mail packages and can hold lots of cash, credit card info, etc. Rather like ATMs, and no one objects to those imaging us.
Best Slashdot Co
Be sure to put on a turban and a fake beard before purchasing your stamps - it's always fun to get the men in black jumping....
The USPS has traditionally been the place that criminals have been sought. The "Wanted" poster has just been updated and automated. No more reliance on the Postmaster or the Postal Customers to say "Hey, isn't that the guy in the poster..."
Step 1: Print 8x10 picture of goatse
Step 2: paste onto stiff posterboard, add handle.
Step 3: Cut eyehole(s) as appropriate.
Step 4: Label back "Back - toward friendly"
Step 5: Hold in front of face while using kiosk.
www.eFax.com are spammers
well not quite the same but over on Fark there is a newsday link about Caesars Atlantic City Hotel and using cameras in-appropriately..
wanted: one clever sig,apply within
Cameras are going to be one heck of a lot smaller than that. How about when every *thing* has cameras embedded in it with passive circuits that can be queried by the nearest wifi-enabled smidgen of chip logic? No way to go home.
Personally I hate it. I especially hate it if I can see the cameras, if it is there in the name of security when it isn't really, when it is some misguided fratboy marketdroid corpspeak lobbylaws that are doing this to people who just want to get on with their lives, use services paid for by their own taxes, etc.
I suspect this is mainly just to increase the number of government accessible eyes, just in case. Probably between now and 10 years from now all digital photo and video cameras in public areas will routinely go through a round of pattern matching, which will mainly catch people with evil smirks and maybe a felon or two.
But you never know, it may very well be that statistically these kiosks were positioned to take the place of a major security risk. But I doubt it, the camera was added because they could. Brin I believe suggests you cannot escape this future, and geezers with online cameras will add to the video matrix. Would it be freer if anybody could view the signal from any government camera over the net? That is even scarier to me in a way.
I was thinking there could be an easy exploit that would get middle eastern men in trouble but that is probably not even worth talking about. What frustrates me is that when I tried to explain this sort of thing to my Dad a few times his attitude was "so what, I have nothing to hide". So somewhere between his generation and mine, a lot more people are feeling marginalized and scared about surveillance. Does it make you a crook if you are doing nothing wrong but it makes you feel edgy anyway? I don't have an answer except a few observations and a proposal:
1) This is not the most effective use of your homeland security tax money. The most likely purpose is so that IBM can quietly demonstrate automated profiling of the public to the U.S. government to sell them an expensive system that ties into it seamlessly, running on a Blue Gene/L system with an interface that ought to be much sexier.
2) Other countries could do this without causing as much ruckus, but they will do it after they see it works in the U.S.
3) It would be interesting to develop an interface to surf all available video angles in a hotspot vicinity
4) Every time a surveillance system is added, it is being done by people who think it's a good idea but are very quiet about how it is used
5) Government officials tend to get tired of surveillance just like ordinary citizens cynical about the government, when the cameras are turned on them.
6) There are a lot of surveillance equipment manufacturers but there are also a lot of open source programmers, and there are way many more people working in dull jobs with an internet connection and time on their hands
7) The U.S. doesn not have a privacy law like say, Japan. It also has much more "bloodyminded" government types than say, Canada.
8) The new Japanese Prime Minister's building was recently revealed to have parallel hallways between executive offices not visible to the public hallways monitored by journalists, so as to enable bureaucrats to deny they were meeting each other.
Conclusion:
Open source community should consider making an open surveillance hardware and software system with a sexy interface, el cheapo hardware, wifi, rfid, and velcro. Solar power optional. These can be placed anywhere you like. If the cost is lower and the only tradeoff is publicity, wouldn't people go with the cheap one that is accessible online by anyone? I would not like it at all but I object to people in power having all the cards. I wouldn't mind so much probably if politicians didn't lie through their teeth all the time. More public eyes on officials might even have a small chance at a law being passed on surveillance before the cameras get way too small to consider.
The parts of government buildings that have cameras should either have the camera in plain sight or a sign saying "survellance cameras in use."
If they keep the picture, they should tell you "video is routinely kept up to xx days" - where xx is at least as big as the "real" routine retention time.
So, next time I walk into a self-service postal kiosk, I hope I see a sign saying "cameras in use, pictures are routinely kept for up to 100 years." That way, they won't have to change the sign for awhile.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I plan on carrying around a picture of my cat's face for holding up to the camera in just such situations.
"Sir, this package was clearly sent by a group of radical tabbys!"
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
"You should contact a physician if your erection lasts more than four hours."
This would actually rock if it weren't for bigbrotherish stuff. I'd like to get pictures of my face on stamps that I'd put on personal letters instead of these handed down styles and set stamps we're given to express our personalities through.
Two different people doing bad things is not really a lot. More people are killed in hit and run accidents every day. So with your logic, everyone should wear cameras looking out for rogue cars?
c# - Wait, it's not pronounced coctothorpe?
Some religions belive that photos 'remove the soul', so according to the various laws and rights groups, all cameras need to be unplugged immediately, or i will be forced to file suit against all entities with a camera pointed towards the public.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I once came across a postage stamp machine that was incorrectly set up. It had the 20 stamp booklets available for 2 cents each. I needed to buy stamps, so I saw that, was curious, and hit the button. Imagine my surprise when a booklet of 20 stamps fell out and the machine read that I had $4.98 still available.
:)
:D
Naturally, being the evil person that I am, I took advantage and cleaned out that slot. Ended up with over 200 of those little booklets and still got back a dollar.
It was a weekend, nobody was around, never got caught. And I'm still using those stamps to this day.
When I go inside a post office there are security cameras everywhere. They record my image (whole body) and probably store it for some period of time. How/Why is this any different.
It just occurred to me that those stamps could have RFID chips embedded. When a stamp is sold, the system stores the picture of the buyer and the RFID number of the stamp/booklet/etc dispensed. If a stamp is used for something illegal, the feds just have to use an RFID reader, contact the USPS with the chip ID, get the location of the vending machine and pull out just one picture. I'll just wait 60 days before using my stamps... :)
Let us all bow to government almighty, the one true savior, protector and retirement-saver.
Long live the state!
Down with the tyranny of the individual!
All your favorite sites in one place!
is that true, freedom-loving patriots should carry their Nixon (or Reagan, if you prefer) mask at the ready at all times, in case they have to buy stamps. Or use an ATM. or go into a bank. or a retail store. or walk around in public....
Motorcycle helmets protect your head.
The kiosks don't accept cash ... I'd expect more of an outrage over that than there is a camera(s) in the machine storing pictures.
The camera part is pretty obvious and easily spotted - it's a silver colored square that's difficult to miss. Contrast this with pinhole cameras that are often well hidden and difficult to spot - pinhole cameras are sometimes used in conjunction with a traditional camera(s) in ATMs, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if there is more than one camera aimed at/inside some of those kiosks.
Ron Bennett
online
Hey great idea! Internet is such a nice place when it comes to anonymity.
blah
<tinfoil_hat>
Thats nothing!
Hell, within my liftime i expect my toaster to hold me at gunpoint every morning and demand a DNA sample, a retinal scan, thumb, palm and footprints as well as some navel lint and a 1024 character pass-phrase.
</tinfoil_hat>
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
Most likely they put these in place because of the anthrax-filled envelopes that have made their way to certain locations. I'm not endorsing what they're doing, but along the lines of Homeland Security this would make sense.
BTW, I hung around waiting for the machine because the medium-tech electronic postal scale on the other side of the lobby gave me three very different weights for the same envelope. sigh.
"This signature quote intentionally left blank"
It is quite simple:
Left wing - Government should take care of everyone else but leve me the hell alone.
Right wing - Government should take care of me, screw everyone else.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
One of the main trends in tech is a move to ubiquitous computing, where computers are intergrated into the surroundings and continually provide us access to the net. The price is, of course, that the computer continually knows where you are, and thus by extention anybody with sufficient access.
The question is how far we want to go for convenience. It might be nice that the sandwich machine automatically spits out your paid-for order as you walk up to it, but are you willing to pay the cost of part of your privacy for this convenience?
Jw
Yeah no joke. I regularly find stuff on my Windows box that I thought I deleted years ago. And at work, roaming profiles greatly compound the problem.
At least XP comes with a delete program that repeatedly overwrites the disk space where a file was. That's the only part of PGP I ever really used.
There are existing buisnesses to pay people to stand in line for you.
Going forward would you pay to have someone else stand in for the cameras?
If 500 people end up with the same photo does it make the system moot?
"They" can't require the buyer to show up in person right?
A lot of businesses (and the government) handle loose stamps like cash. Postage has an easily recongizable value that never expires, is used universally, and can be easily sold or traded anonymously. So, yes a person could knock over a stamp machine and get thousdands of dollars of a cash equivilent - not to mention the actual money inside.
As Dr. Strangelove said, it's not a deterrent IF YOU KEEP IT SECRET.
The revolution will NOT be televised.
dig out your usama binladen or tricky dicky masks and wear them when you use the machines... then see what happens. What can they do??? You have a right to wear a party mask in public??? surely you have.. or will they make that illegal too.
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
So, here is my suggestion to improve the system. They should add a web interface to the photo gallery and add a "show your tits for free stamps" function. This way, at least, it will be turned into something useful.
Achille Talon
Hop!
I understand surveillance and the idea of retaining data about an individual to aid in possible future prosecution, but why on a stamp machine? ATMs get tampered with, and the people using them get robbed while at the machine. I see the point of ATMs housing cameras.
Postal Stamp dispensers are not what I would consider a potential crime stop worthy of monitoring with a camera. Is this some anti-terrorism plan? We didn't have pictures of the 9/11 terrorists boarding the airplanes, but we still knew who they were pretty quickly after the attacks.
Funny what the government thinks up to protect me. Personally, I think Uncle Sam is getting a little senile in his old age.
I love those Kiosks. Its great for mailing packages at midnight. Have to pay by credit card. However, you do not sign a receipt. So, maybe the picture could be used in a dispute? I know, I am reaching. Since the picture is kept for 30 days, and it can take that long to see an unauthorized charge, it can't really help in a dispute.
Stick a piece of tape over the camera when you see it. Since this disables the machine, the lost revenue may force the postal service to reconsider their design.
If you're THAT paranoid, I suggest you use private couriers then, pay them through numbered accounts in Switzerland, and use a 3rd-party agent to drop off your packages.
Or, just stand in the line and hand-write your labels out. Don't forget to only ever pay cash for postage too.
The unsig!
no they dont do wild...they go...heh...POSTAL!!! ;0
wherever you go - malls, stores, gas stations you are being continually monitored and recorded. you have no idea how long they keep your face on file. what's all the cribbing about? get over it - the US is probably the only place wherever people talk the most about privacy and end up having the least!
BP http://www.card-central.com
Next step in 'technology' - postage stamps with your own picture on it. That would be 37c, please.
When those kiosks went in to the local Post Office, they had a greeter who explained their function and features. It was explicity part of the "script" that the transaction was accompanied by a photograph for security purposes.
Seems to me someone needs some PayPal donations to subsidize their fight for your freedom so they announced this as an FOIA issue. Oh, what do you know, donations are the first item on their main page!
How does the camera figure out whether the picture has been "compromised." Is this just as simple as determing the alpha value of the snapped photo to see if you put your hat over the lens? Could there be a locator behind you on the wall that the camera looks for to make sure it isn't compromised? If not, why not hold up a magazine picture or almost anything that has some contrast with different shaped objects and such. Maybe they have a running video that only saves the frames when you run the transaction. That way it could constantly process the images and if something funny starts happening. Like a major image change from a parking lot to the cover of Seventeen being held in front of it (not that the Tween crowd uses stamps, that's saved for old South Koreans), the camera could lock the kiosk for a certain period of time. It might stop a fast moving fat person (they could roll) from buying stamps. No more renewing your subscriptions to Pie of the Month Club.
Walrus99 does the Chant of the Ever Circling Skeletal Family: Run, run, run, run, ....
...with this little word game, I quite simply don't.
I think it's entirely fucked up that one should be able to put up cameras wherever the fuck one wants as long as people are expected to stay dressed there. This kind of preemptive law enforcement appears to me akin to fingerprinting everybody and then wait for the crime.
Or, better yet, just take everybody's DNA profile at birth and give it to the police waiting for the child to become felon.
The way I view it is that if the police cannot maintain law and order without carpet camera coverage, they are either:
a) Underfunded (most likely)
b) Understaffed, or
c) Incompetent.
Of course some people are going to get killed, murdered, maimed and raped, but that is a result of the fact that we as humans can choose. Some choose to go down the roads that have victims.
Nevertheless, this idea that just because a place is 'public' that the police and politicians can do as they please with it to appear proactive, is absolutely ludicrous. I expect decency from the government, and this is a slippery slope leading to abuse.
Alternatively, if one has nothing to fear, why not have police robot snipers on the rooftops scouting for trouble? As we're heading down this road, we, the public, are dropping all the arguments that are there to protect our dignity as human beings, as well as to balance the rights of private citizens versus officials.
with the custom unabomber stamps. Brought that program to a bit of a halt.
And what exactly is taking my picture as I purchase stamps going to do? So i purchase stamps.. woohoo.....
"Now let's all overreact as if there aren't cameras watching you in almost every store these days"
From from deserving a "5" for being "insightful" I'd say you should receive a 6 for being ignorant - why should I give anyone a nice, close-up photo of my transaction with the post office? That's a major privacy concern, one that I am not subjected to if I mail a letter at any regular postal box in the street OR even if I complete a transaction at the teller / counter.
So please, stop using the Will Smith / Everybody Is Watching Me theory to dismiss this major issue as nothing but another chink in the armor of privacy - this is a MAJOR blow.
Red light cams, traffic cams, plenty of store/STM/other surveillance cams that can see the street - that's already fairly well covered. Sure, dark back roads aren't, but I wouldn't be surprised if there have been hit-and-runs caught on camera, particularly in urban environs.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
Perhaps you meant staunch?
Still, it sounds cool. Come up with a definition and let us know.
Laws are for people with no friends.
Posting a letter without your photo being taken is not, IMO, an essential liberty.
Phil
I guess today is a passable day to die.
Postal Employee leaks/Security breach at Malibu Post Office.
Nick Noolte drunk again.
Look a the fashions the stars wear every day
Who's that standing in line with J.Lo ?
Star seeking attention flashs Post office.
This is my opinion based on what little I know and understand of the rumors and lies Thanks, Randal
how long until you think that will happen - or has it already?
Now that IS cunning, and MUST be true to associate every plain letter with a photo.
In Soviet Russia, KIOSK photographs YOU!
:)
actually that should read:
In USA, KIOSK photographs YOU!
Well, the way things are going, we might be able to reuse all the Soview Russia jokes.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
It is there in order to protect us. Let's say the next UniBomber started using these Kiosks, would you rather that person be able to stay anonymous for years upon years and commit more acts of violence through the mail or would you rather that person's face be plastered all over the country after one such piece of mail was delivered?
If humanity didn't create the psychotic nutjobs that were capable of these acts, I would be seriously questioning the need for such cameras. Unfortunately, there are some seriously messed up people out there that would/could use those kiosks to perpetrate terrible acts of violence, ala the Unibomber.
Having those cameras at those kiosks doesn't chew into my personal liberty, those cameras won't interrupt my ability to use those kiosks, they won't disallow me from sending anything through them that I wish to send through them, they won't spring out black ops agents ready to probe every orifice of my body. All they do is provide a method to track someone that used the kiosk to commit criminal acts.
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
It's always nice to have worked on things that people have not only heard of, but that actually makes their lives easier.
Do you know why the machines won't let you insure your package? It seems like they can handle every other service the PO offers.
That's the only thing keeping me from using them on a regular basis.
New Web Cartoon: Jendini.com
Plus, the camera in this kiosk takes one picture (presumably), so it's more like a stranger briefly glancing at you. Not at all the same as being stared at.
But - do you really feel like your being stared at every time you go into stores or the bank? Nearly every store has some kind of video monitoring these days, and in most cases it doesn't get looked at, or maybe a bored security guard will see you on the screen, along with hundreds of other people, day in and day out.
When presented with this scenario, most people begin to understand and are less likely to present the "I'm an honest person" retort.
It's not about honesty, it's about public spaces. Do you have a right to privacy? And likewise, does someone else have a right to look at you on the street.
Sure, it would be greatly annoying and unnerving if you were in a restaurant and a video camera in the corner moved around and tracked only you. And similarly if a person was staring at you the same way. But as to the point of this /. article, the cameras on the kiosks are really no different than store cameras. So if you have a problem with these kiosk cameras, you should logically have similar problems with all store monitoring cameras.
make world, not war
George Orwell wrote 1984. The only Huxley work I can think of which you might have been thinking of is "Brave New World".
Anyway, as a gun-owner and open-source programmer you already have a solution -- shoot out the camera and install linux on the XP control box.
Phil
I guess today is a passable day to die.
Great site, I love it. I'm pretty left-wing and libertarian socially on the compass, maybe even a little more than I really am but its pretty good. Its always hard I think to decide whether one agrees or agrees strongly or what not.
the government won't be putting cameras in private spaces anytime soon
Not, but I'm sure it is a very Patriotic Act to gain remote controll of your web cam.
And to monitor your power usage (hey, you might be trying to grow some of that evil hydroponic devil weed).
And when there's a camera on every street light looking at liscense plates (gotta catch those red light burning bandits), it's gonna be a breeze to track your car... right to the mall, where every store front tracks your unique compilation of RFID tags and cameras from every angle watch your every move.
Each of these things, by themselves, aren't a big deal, right? So there's no reason (aside from tin-foilliness) to object to any of these small, incremental erosions of privacy, right?
Baby steps... baby steps.
You can't take the sky from me...
Gee, my copy of XP crashed, so you must be lying. Because there's no way on earth two different things could happen to two different people unless one of them is lying.
Or, what exactly was your particular copy of XP's miraculous uptime supposed to prove about machines that AREN'T running your particular copy of XP? One data point hardly makes a trend.
Left wing - Government should take care of everyone else but leve me the hell alone.
Right wing - Government should take care of me, screw everyone else.
If you're talking about the United States left/right wings of politics, those definitions are wrong. I feel these are better:
Left wing - Government should pay for everything, using money collected from the middle-class to the rich. However, the government should keep it's nose out of my individual liberties.
Right wing - Government should leave me and my business alone to be profitable and allow me to choose how I spend the money I've earned. However, the government should stick it's nose into everyone's individual liberties.
Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
OR, how about not using the USPS to ship packages and stick to FedEx or UPS instead? All the shipping centers I've been to don't have cameras...
yet.
You're captured on video when you're in the post office, why not the same when using a "satellite" service point?
P.S. This has been the case for ATM for years... and THEY use full video capture.
It's only a matter of time before the government knows everything that we do. Think about it - cameras everywhere, massive databases tracking every purchase, every phone call and every e-mail. Combine all the data with sophisticated pattern analysis software and essentially the government will know everything - where you go, who you see & what you do. It's unstoppable. Inevitable. The only thing we can do - is legalize everything. Not murder or theft - but all the low victim crimes - prostitution, drugs, sodomy, euthanasia & so on. Every change you get - even if it makes your stomach hurt - vote to legalize everything
Isn't this in violation of the newly enacted privacy protection laws? I would be very surprised if they could actually get away with doing this.
The parent is correct.
Back in college, I had a gas mask I had picked up at an army surplus store. You have no idea how much fun you can have walking around in public wearing a gas mask. I think the best was when I walked up to the Information desk at a book store and asked if they had any books on paranoia.
Redundancy is good And also good.
Why does nobody complain that every single ATM takes your picture.
I'm not talking about the obvious camera mounted in the corner of the ATM booth. I'm talking about the camera mounted behind the screen you stare at to process your ATM transaction.
Behind? Yes, there is a secondary camera inside the touchscreen monitor you use to navigate your ATM menus. Nobody seems to have a problem with these, however.
Just interesting how much people are willing to forgive when it comes to convenience vs. security.
In Singapore during the SARS scare, they had cameras inside the house of each SARS suspect to make sure they don't..er...mingle with other non-suspects....
So your dream of having a camera inside the house has already come true-:))
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
Feel free to get the fuck out and take your Dad with you, you whiny piece of shit. Try a muslim country. I'm quite certain they'll be respectful of your freedom there (that is if you define freedom as doing everything the mullahs tell you to do, never questioning them, and not speaking out against the government)
So Muslim countries are bad because you can't speak out (not argueing with that), but when he speaks out here he's a whiny piece of shit who should feel free to get the fuck out? You don't see how incredibly stupid your statement is?
Definition and reality are a little different though. Your definitions are a little more wordy. Mine are overly simplified but reflect reality more.
Left wants the government to make choices for everyone individually other then them personally
Right wing wants the government to pay them to "keep their big business/corporation going" and screw everyone else.
the Right wing you describe is more like the religious right rather than true right, big difference.
Left wing thinks the government is an entity of good and just people that will make the right descriptions, so it should be able to make all the real decisions for people while giving the people free reign over what's left of their rights.
Right wing knows the government is and will always be corrupt and tries to put it in it's place by being small and less powerful, but they succumb to the louer eventually anyway and try to line their pockets with cash.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
This individual application is not much of a problem in itself, and with the Anthrax scare of a few years ago, they can get a picture of who used a post office where the Anthrax might have originated.
However, as more and more places take our pictures it becomes more easy to track someone.
Years ago it was a bureaucratic joke that the federal government had 20-30 agencies each with their own police and arrest powers. Because they were spread out and uncoordinated, this was not a really big deal. Now with consolidation under 2 or three super agencies (Justice, Homeland Security, and intelligence) coordination becomes more possible and insidious.
Soon it will be possible to network together all these picture taking stations, and with better and better face recognition software, it will be possible to track many people's whereabouts
We are on a slippery slope towards Big Brother.
Read "Nazi Seizure of Power: The Experience of a Single German Town" by William Allen to see how a society can fall down a slippery slope without even realizing it.
care to post the IP of this Unpatch^H^H^H^H^H^HRemarkably stable XP machine.
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
Actually, it's illegal to wear a mask in public in the state of Gerogia (excluding Halloween and 'special occasions'). http://www.command-post.org/2004/2_archives/016668 .html
Just the people reading this article, and a pack or two or gum each, could easily and permanently disable this program. Tell us where the cameras are on the machines, and we'll go out and make sure the cameras can't see a damn thing. Enough malfunctions due ONLY to the cameras being unusable will surely return the machines to their publically funded mandate: to sell us our fucking stamps, without adding us to a photo database.
Surveillance is as hard as the surveilled make it, folks. Let's all chip in to make a better country.
...from interacting with the person behind the post office counter? That person can remember what you look like and describe it to other people after you leave. Even if the person can't fully describe what you look like there is probably a video camera that captured some of your image that can jog the memory of the post office employee. I don't see any invasion of privacy here.
"No Comm, No Bomb"
C'mon, visiting the post office is ALWAYS a special occasion!!
*--BigMan--- Time flies like an arrow.. but personally I prefer a nice glass of wine!
Don't use USPS kiosks. Vote with your dollar.
If you can't get away without stamps, and are really paranoid, you can purchase them at the grocery store, but PLEASE pay in cash. If you use a check, they'll get your home address!
If you use a cash card or credit card, they can still get your home address.
You could also get someone else to buy your stamps for you. Stay at home, ask your neighbor to buy stamps for you. But then the USPS would have a picture of your neighbor... hmmm. We wouldn't want that, would we.
I got it. Use another carrier! FedEx? UPS? How about a fax machine? Or email? Western Union? Is Western Union anonymous?
-- No sig for you!
And how long will it be before the TSA/Dept. of Homeland Security requires ID's and photos when you ship something via UPS/FedEx/DHL/whatever? OTOH, I think a reasonable defense in court would be that the photos were Photoshopped, and so can't be trusted as evidence by the jury. [Assuming the gov't permits a jury. Guantanamo, anyone?]
"Don't blame the log for the fire." --Andrew Ratshin
Mod up -- +5, Sees the bigger picture
You could even claim that the booth was functioning as a p2p network in order to do this! Don't fight the system, use it!
The wearing of masks were once fashionable, especially among the well to do in medieval society. Notoriety usually painted a target on people. King Alfred of England often used more than masks, but whole disguises. Peter the Great of Russia often went incognito in order to find out first hand the thoughts and feelings of his countrymen without them being colored by awe of his position. Of course governments now would want to have them illegal. But it everyone did it...well you can't just put everyone in jail now, can you? Just say you are protecting yourself from identity theft, because that is what any image stealing kiosk is surrepititiousely doing. If you cannot take pictures in public, why should big business?
taking pictures of my "package". Although, they may sell for a pretty penny on many sites around the internet. Since I am rather tall, many ATM cameras probably get a nice shot of my gut. Bet pics of my gut would qualify for some sick fetish sites out there.
Scary Stuff.
If you buy stamps from a human, do you insist that they forget what you look like?
Or perhaps you'd insist that their eyes be poked out?
-- Should you believe authority without question?
can someone suggest likely types of locations?
"we have no privacy in public"
Really!!!?!?!?!??!!!! My Ghod!!!
Yes, this is so everyone can have a copy of your driver licence photo ;-)
Only 'flamers' flame!
Does slashdot hate my posts?
What's with all the paranoia about someone pointing a camera at you in public?
That's what "in public" means: a non-private space where you and all your activities are visible to anyone who cares to look.
The only difference I see vis-a-vis cameras is that it is easier for you or the authorities to prove you actually were where you say you were if you're involved in some kind of legal machinations.
So, yes, if you're photographed running a red light, sit back and wait for the ticket to arrive. And, remember, it is your fault, not the cameras.
But, if you're some poor sod who the police think, mistakenly, was in a hit-and-run, wouldn't it be nice to be able to prove that, when the incident took place, you really were pulling money out of that deserted ATM on that empty street with no witnesses?
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Some Native Americans, and people from various other cultures, object to having photos taken as it is believed to steal the spirit. So how about an objection based on 1st amendment freedom of religion?
In any case, cash to a live clerk is looking more and more attractive, just like the good old days. The scariest scenario is where there is no other option and you must submit to having your biometrics recorded in order to make the transaction.
Like my friend said, before they took him away and hung him, "What a brave new world!"
The problems are that while they are covering you and yours, because they can, they aren't doing a thing about the other 6 billion people on this planet (who hate the guts of the few million on this side of the hemisphese who are keeping tabs on everybody in the USA.)
The fallicy of all this is that you're actually going to be safe. Soon its going to be illegal to report the ones that get through.
And all of us over here are being screw-tenized.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
Nor of anybody. Try taking a camera down the New York City subway and you'll probably get a tap on the shoulder the first time and a club to the head if you give them any 'lip.'
Your freedom to take pictures is at stake (and vanishing fast.)
Look for set building outfits to make a lot of money as the movie industry is forced off the streets.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Simple logic
.....
1. The terrorists hate us because we have freedom
2. Let's get rid of our freedoms
3. The terrorists will leave us alone.
You forgot a couple steps!
0. Use governments 9/11 fear mongering tactics to our advantage.
1. The terrorists hate us because we have freedom
2. Let's get rid of our freedoms by installing privacy reducing devices somewhere everyone goes
3. The terrorists will leave us alone.
4.
5. PROFIT
I shake my head. WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF IT!!!
---
Taglines? We don't need no stinky taglines!
Or perhaps it means that the Postmaster General is a brooding and dashingly mysterious rake who keeps an insane Condoleeza Rice chained up in his attic.
The OP is perpetuating the biggest lie ever, the parent is telling the truth. The "terrorists" are pissed because Americans are on a campaign of world dominance, installing military bases all over the world and removing freedom of "foreigners". If USA were to leave other countries alone, the other countries would leave USA alone too.
If anything, it's American individuals themselves who are taking away their own freedom, the freedom to think, by listening only to American sources and perpetuating the lies of their government's PR department.
dollar bill, let alone some fancy-pants facial recognition thing.
Fortunately, during the campaign, the Republican National Committee sent me a picture of our President to use in situations like this. Hopefully it will be better at recognizing real live Presidents than dead ones.
Realistically, most people in the U.S. are more likely to experience problems due to misguided and overly zealous government attempts to "protect" them, than to be directly affected by a terrorist attack. It's not a question of which gets your heckles (sic) up more, it's a question of which is most likely to have a direct effect on you. The answer to the latter question is "Homeland Security".
Make no mistake, one of the primary purposes of Homeland Security is to cover the government's collective ass when the next attack happens. "We tried everything - from a color-coded warning system, to forcing mothers to drink their own milk at airports, right down to photographing everyone who buys a stamp! What more could we have done?"
The problem with giving up liberty for security is that there's no exchange rate between the two -- you can't trade one for the other. Don't confuse a bureaucratic immune response with an intelligent response to security threats.Finally, a use for that Michael Jackson mask...
"Baby steps... baby steps."
Baby steps works the other way too. Now why aren't you all stepping?
"Knowing all this, can you honestly say that your behavior is not altered, in anyway, by public surveillance? If your behavior is being altered, do you like the idea that someone else is controlling you?"
Is it being altered for the better or the worse?
Think about the Pacers-Pistons fight before answering.
It's good enough for Vermont!
Perhaps it's time to take off; but where else is any better? I get the impression these days that the only place you can actually be *free* is in a 3rd world country that doesn't have its shit together well enough to properly monitor its citizens. But do you really want to live in such a place?
;)
Come to Canada!
It isn't that our government has any less Machiavellian or Orwellian overtones, but there is one clear cultural distinction between USAians and Canucks:
USAians know their government, if left to its own devices, will inevitably try to get up to something bad and that they have billions of dollars, several federal agencies, lots of legal clout, and a vast repository of competent agents to carry out the intrusive or unpleasant plan.
Canadians know their government, if left to its own devices, will inevitably try to get up to something bad and that they have about twelve dollars, several very confused federal agencies, a minimal modicum of legal clout, and a not too vast repository of questionably competent agents to carry out the intrusive or unpleasant plan.
In short, some folks down South seem paranoid because they fear the government is interested and capable of doing unpleasant things. Up here, we fear their intentions, but we know they're blisteringly inept, squander their money, and essentially are more corrupt and self-serving than competent and ideological, so really, there seems to be a lot less to worry about.
And up here, you can own medical marijuana, get married if you are gay, pretty much watch and say whatever you want, observe the separation of church and state, be of any relgion and fit in our cultural mosaic, wear a beard, a kirpan, a turban, a kilt or a feather head-dress. All of that is true, but there is one restriction: You MUST like hockey.
-- Mal: "Well they tell you: never hit a man with a closed fist. But it is, on occasion, hilarious."
This doesn't stop people from putting Anthrax in an envelope and mailing it, so once again, we have a solution in search of a problem.
everyone should just start wearing masks. I understand that they're terribly comfortable, and in the future, everyone would be wearing them. Now we have a reason!
"Good night, good work, sleep well, I'll most likely kill you in the morning." - Dread Pirate Roberts
Well I got something to say
I took your picture today
And it doesn't matter much to me
As long as its seen
Well I got something to say
Invaded your privacy
And it doesn't matter much to me
Cause I'm a machine
Sweet lovely face
I'll be o'er at your place
As soon as I steal these prints
I've got something to say
I took your picture today
And it doesn't matter much to me
As long as its seen
Sweet lovely face
I'll be o'er at your place
As soon as I steal these prints
Steal these prints lovely face
Steal these prints lovely face
Oh, oh, whoa, oh.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
This is how the Nazis found/killed all the jews, they did the census reports and imputed that data into their 'mechanical computers' the Holirinth systems made by yours truely IBM. Were it not for the mass 'spying' of people and instant database access (a crude sql in 1940), the nazis would have had it 10x more difficult to track/find people and to make sure trains and stuff run on time. Now that is not to say that they could have not done it with other competitors to IBM, but the others were not as good mainly due to IBM patents on every little tiny detail/process.
So you could see this 'monitoring' of the masses started out back in early 20th century.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
While we are slowly sleepwalking into a surveillance society along with the rest of the world, the process is well behind where it's at in the UK or the US. My local city centre isn't festooned with CCTV cameras; you can still rent a PO Box anonymously, etc. You need ID to mail parcels though. In most respects it's as free a country as you can find on the planet that still has a first-world standard of living (maybe Canada similarly qualifies) but it is a concern that even Australia is starting to follow in Orwell's footsteps....
In-correct hyphenation...
# cat
Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
I'll start worrying when the cost to analyze all that data in real-time approaches zero.
... what do you do? Turn in evidence of crimes? Make money?
... that's probably gonna happen too, but at least it moves at the pace of government ....
I follow your meaning -- widespread, systematic, AI-driven abuse of these systems will require plenty of spending.
But there's another kind of abuse that get easier and easier: the personal grudge, taking advantage of any petty weakness. These cameras will catch all kinds of embarrassing moments -- ATM sex, actionable statements by parties to litigation, outright crime. Guys like us will be doing our jobs, pawing through work-related files, and we'll come across this amazing blackmail material.
There's the test -- you find this amazing blackmail material
Or maybe it's not blackmail, but revenge -- you find amazing images which humiliate your enemy, that asshole in the cube next door. What red-blooded geek could resist the opportunity?
The personal grudge as a catalyst to exploitation of technology -- it's cheap, it's easy, and it's going to get commoner and commoner.
All of that Big Brother jazz
-kgj
-kgj
I work just by Tower Bridge in London.
If I go out in my lunch time taking photos (as I often do) and one of them ends up being published (as they do in print from time to time - and heck, I put them up on the web for others to enjoy) do I have to get the written permission of every tourist who happens to wander into my picture frame?
What if I walk a couple of hundred metres down the street and take photos, or outside my house?
It doesn't work.
"I wouldn't be surprised if there is more than one camera aimed at/inside some of those kiosks."
I believe the other one's looking up women's dresses.
That's fine; I'll just mail my illegal packages on Halloween.
I'd rather be lucky than good.
Shave your damn beard.
Seriously. It doesn't sound like you are an extremely devout conservative Muslim, so do you really need to grow it? If you'd rather not suffer for your beliefs, then you need to get pragmatic. I bet that just being clean-shaven will reduce by half the extra profile-matching searches and hassles.
Hell, I myself have absolutely 0% Arab/Muslim heritage, a U.S. Passport, a German last name, and I'm half Asian, but I just have a face that, when sporting a flowing beard, makes me look Middle-Eastern or Mexican. I wouldn't dare go through a U.S. immigration checkpoint with a beard.
Of course if the beard is because you're a devout and conservative UNIX hacker, well, more power to you...
This is actually for all the folks who will try to correct the parent post. Jim Carrey is from Canada, but he is also a US citizen.
errr who modded this up?
THE PAGE LINKED TO DOES NOT INCLUDE MENTION OF PAYPAL.
http://www.epic.org/privacy/postal/
THEIR MAIN PAGE DOES
http://www.epic.org/
But how is that surprising? It's a freaking political NGO, they ALL ask for donations.
I can't believe parent is modded to 4, he claims the greeters disclosed everything without giving us a link to back up his claim. And even if he did provide a link, and the greeters did warn people about it, it's evident that not many people know about the pictures (i.e. the greeters were just a lame ploy), and that (with the FOIA request) the authorities don't especially want us to know.
So after this unbacked-up meaningless point he then makes the astonishing observation that a NGO accepts donations and tries to imply this is their *real* motivation. Not that they believe in what they are fighting for and want to raise awareness fo the issues like any good NGO should... just that they are after money - well according to "briantf".
AND YOU MOD THIS FOUR!?!?!??!
FFS slashdot has gone to hell.
Goatse.
Kind of makes ya want to wear a Burka in public.
1. covers you up
2. covered by freedom of religion
Now if they would just put cameras (or GPS) in the delivery vehicles and see their staff spending hours killing time waiting until it is late enough to go back and return the truck. (except of course for about 2 weeks a year)
Final 2006 "Proof of Global Warming" US Hurricane Count -> 0
This sounds like just the shot in the arm the ancient art of gurning has been crying out for.
http://www.cumbria.uk.com/cumbria/fun/gurn.htm
No, your children are not the special ones. Nor are your pets.
How Secret can this really be?
It wasn't announced publicly through all the news stations? I don't recall cameras at ATMs being announced publicly either...
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
a) Many of these camera are for monitoring. If they actively catch you shoplifting then they'll nab you. .. but not if they think you looked suspicious on a recording from 3 weeks ago
b) They don't refuse you service if you haven't been snapped by a camera yet
c) Many stores have membership cards to shop/get-discounts. Does this mean that it's fine with you if everywhere does? Propogation does not make something right, just popular.
How about if the person asks you not to take/use the picture.
My g/f is a journalism student and at one time was photographing panhandlers are part of a photo-essay. Most didn't mind, one (who hadn't even had his picture taken), got quite belligerent about the picture-taking, going on about right-to-privacy, etc etc.
Since we hadn't taken the dude's picture there was nothing to erase anyways, but if he had requested it would we have been obligated to do so (the assignment was not distributed out of the class to my knowledge).
If you are supposed to remove such pictures, what about if somebody hits your car and you take his picture for evidence or other such situations?
I think it quite likely that terrorists don't hate you for your freedoms, it's either that they:
a) Have a specific grudge (for local terrorists)
b) Prefer not to have you touting your "freedoms" in their countries, particularly by providing armaments to various preferencial groups...
"When those kiosks went in to the local Post Office, they had a greeter who explained their function and features. It was explicity part of the "script" that the transaction was accompanied by a photograph for security purposes."
So the same logic allows me to take photos of every post-office worker I deal with? (or indeed, anyone in public)
(yes serious question, might be quite useful to carry around a video camera. Let's see how people react to having their images displayed, sorted, classified and annotated on my website...)
You can't control where you're born, or (till you strike out on your own) where you grow up. Some people, through a confluence of circumstances not their fault, are unable (financially or otherwise) to just pack up and move because where they are is an undesirable place to live.
Take a good look around Southeast DC or East Baltimore (to pick two examples I'm passingly familiar with). Realize that most of the people living in the war zones in both places are just trying to keep their heads down and make the next rent payment, hopefully without getting shot on their way out of the market every weekend. Moving for most of them is not an option because they have no resources to go job hunting, apartment hunting, or anything hunting.
It's good to examine one's options, but it's also good to be aware that often those who have the fewest options are those who could use them the most.
There's also the point that it's unfair to penalize the victim of mistreatment by putting the burden on them to move away, get a new job, leave friends and possibly family behind, etc.
-- Old Man Kensey