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China: the New Global High-Tech Power
Andy Tai writes "This three-part news.com special report shows how mainland China has become the focus of high tech business opportunities during the global recession. The article compares today's China to 19th Century America as "a booming nation starved for products and driven by a new generation of entrepreneurs", points out China's "sheer numbers and ambitious work ethic are producing thousands of engineers--and U.S. companies are recruiting the best of them," and concludes "that this may eventually be known as China's high-tech century. " Another good article looking at China's rise as a global power can be found here."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't their culture spend several thousands of years as the most advanced on Earth?
Friends don't let friends use multiple inheritance.
I thought Japan was just the one coming out with the high tech stuff. Hmm, I guess a lot changes in 9 days.
My other sig is an import.
China is _thee_ place to be, cheap workers, cheap engineers, cheap managers, cheap...
America has prices itself right out of business, and China is even cheaper then Mexico, which is where all the jobs went last decade.
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
America has always been behind in technology compared to Japan. Since China is now taking off in the technology market, will America lag behind them also?
They are communist breeders...the people do not reproduce, they breed new people.
Hence the reason fo the huge standing army, and all of the smart people, just by sheer numbers and probability, theyd have the smartest people.
oh well
What if Rice a Roni Is not really the San Francisco Treat??
Sure, China has the largest potential market in the world for virtually any kind of product. They do have many people, but those people are going to have to acquire some disposable income before the potential market is realized for most of the things we want to sell them.
Hello CHINA:
How about getting the following the foundation for a high-tech economy?
1)-access to energy
2)-fair judicial system
3)-clean water
4)-enough food for its people
5)-uncorrupt governance
6)-educated people
7)-freedom of expression
No amount of friendliness towards business or incentives for technology will overcome these more basic barriers.
Game: Player 'Donald J Trump' now has AI skill level 'experimental'.
the U.S. has been behind Japan in terms of consumer technology for the past 50 years or so, not *always*.
The bloody english limmeys and their attrocious ways! They also destroyed India, Africa, Australia, Ireland, Scotland, and many more....
I thought they would beat Mozilla 1.0 out the door - who would've thought the Lizard would have whipped it out first?
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
China has all of that, but misses one BIG part. A clear fair legal system where outcomes can be reasonably assured. Simple game theory will lead to the result that the lack of this will lead to a GREATLY diminished amount of wealth being generated. The oligarcy that runs the country and the lack of an independant judicary means that the generationof wealth will be forever hampered.
China is 10-20 years away from being a great power ... and always will be.
How many CENTURIES has this been predicted? Yes, China has a lot of people -- and always have had. Yes, China has a huge amount of wealth -- and always have had.
I think this has literally been predicted for a thousand freaking years. I'm not an expert on China, but obviously there are deep-rooted cultural attributes keeping them from expanding their influence in the world.
Wake me up next century when we make the same prediction that won't come true.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Aside from that whole hyperpollution issue and vicious totalitarian Communist corruptocracy and miserable population health and the wholesale violation of basic human rights, freedoms, and dignity, CHINA ROCKS!! WOO! GO eCOMMERCE AND TELEPHONE TECHNOLOGY!
(sidenote: Funny how the two most vicious sadistic empires on Earth are on the exact opposite sides of the planet.)
A little light reading material, for those who like their moral outrage straight-up: http://hrw.org/asia/china.php
and another perspective on China in case the phrase "human rights" sounds a little too pinko faggot for your finely-tuned intellectual sensibilities... http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/eap/8289 .htm ...
May whatever runs this stupid universe have mercy on the poor people in that godforsaken nation.
There's a few diplomatic issues to resolve, just scanning the headlines at the minute reveals US warns of danger to Taiwan.
They seem to think Capitalism doesn't require liberal democracy, and it may in fact operate better under autocratic regimes, but that may not be the case. They like to draw comparisons to the highly successful Singapore, which is very strict, however this is a social construct not a political one, though obviously both are inexorably linked whichever you look at it.
However it's quite different to China who are operating some extreme DoubleThink as far as free markets are concerned, the holdings on the stock market are mostly just an elaborate sham for instance, with peasants apparently holding millions of shares, plus shell companies, it will be interesting to see how that holds up, especially with increasing urban unemployment, the disaffected are easily influenced in those regions, this is evidence by the rise of Falun Gong.
Things may well consolidate into the traditional superpower blocks in the future when China reaches economic parity with the US in the 2030's, for us young readers we'll certainly be living in interesting times, somehow I don't think the Afghanistans' of the world will matter in the longterm, the asymmetric threats to the West may well be transitionary with the old superpower blocks resurfacing in a couple of decades.
If things don't go well then Taiwan will be the modern day equivalent of the old Berlin frontier.
Destroyed? Those countries are still there when I last looked, India now being the largest democracy in the world isn't exactly an awful legacy, and we created Australia you buffoon (you as well), what exactly couple we destroy in Australia? Sand and rocks?. Anyway, back onto destruction, have you seen what those renegade Yankees have done to the English language? We could never keep those little buggers under control ;)
Anyway, you're being Anti-British (you don't hear that often) which is a couple of centuries out of date now, the US now occupies the number one Evil Empire/infidel slot for propaganda included countries.
Democracy in India IS not an English legacy!
Australia was actually created by people running away from Britain because of persecution. Australians are notorious for their anti britishness. What about the natives of Australia that got wipped out!
The Yankees simplified and modernized the English language.
I am not American!
Americans are cool!
I am not Anti-British! I am anti-english! I am pro-Scottish and pro-Irish!
... who thinks the abuses of the government of the People's Republic of China are in some way comparable to the occasional (and regrettable) aberrations of Western legal systems.
These are the people who nestled copies of "Javascript for Dummies" inside their history books in school while chuckling to themselves, thinking they were really putting one over on The Man.
You should visit china and see how ignorant its people are. it's a shame......
Lawyers?
We're exporting the technology, know-how, and capital for everything else to them already. There won't be anything (except lawyers) we'll have that they don't already make for themselves.
Gordon.
He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.
-- J.R.R. Tolkien
Gotta hide that goatse, pal.
I suggest you redirect a few times between yahoo and lboro.ac.uk so that the url is longer than anyone's status bar. Nobody's going to go to the trouble of putting it on their clipboard to see the "end" destination.
Thank you for your time, please lick my nutzors.
Your pal, AC.
Anyway, back to persecution, so why they these people run to a country that was controlled by the British until 1901? The legacy of this is still apparent, see flag, see head of state.
Problem is... not being anti-British involves not being anti-English/Scottish/Irish/Welsh, you can't pick and choose.
China will have a strong economy if they have a successful business sector, jobs isnt what matters its how many small businesses and big businesses you have that matters.
The USA has alot of businesses, if you talk about jobs you are talking mc donalds, and yes mc donalds is in mexico.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Australia was actually created by people running away from Britain because of persecution.
:-)
Erm, no, I rather think Australia was created by plate tectonics.
And the encyclopedia I checked says Australia was founded by a bunch of British convicts:
"Oy! The boat 'it somethin', an' when we looked ova' the side, we founded it was land that we 'it! So we desoyded ta stay!"
So all you Aussies are the descendants of a bunch of filthy criminals!
"Yahoo Serious"? Do those words go together?
I know for a fact (via a customer that has a 20 man office in Nanjing) that 100K == 10 engineers over there.
So for one well paid US worker you can get 10 softies over there.
Now I did ask about the skillset and he indicated that they need some specific training for
what you need but after that the group is somewhat self sufficient and very able to get
the job done.
Practice your Mandarin. The writing gives me the most difficuly but at
least from a software standpoint, English is ok, just speaking would need to be in Mandarin
to manage a team...
Indeed, I think Alex Chiu's insight can help shed some light on this topic. This is somewhat-lucid prose from his year-old /. interview:
"I think the Chinese government is doing a great job right now. I support population control. I think USA should do the same. If you want to have more than 1 kid, you should pay more tax. The enemies of China always use "human rights issues" to attack China. But if USA has 1.3 billion people, USA would have the same human rights problem just like China. You cannot expect so much freedom in a land of 1.3 billion people. Chinese government is doing such a great job that China not only feeds its own people, it also feeds most of the Russians. Most of the food imported to Russia came from China. You guys always talk about human rights. But why can't you guys mention about "government rights"? Chinese government has the right to do whatever it must do to protect China. That includes population control and the liberation of Tibet. Do you know that before Tibet was liberated, you can buy and sell slaves in Tibet? In the old Tibet, you can have slaves, you can marry 4 wives, but you cannot take a bath for 1 whole year, and you cannot meet a foreigner. You can skin your slave alive, and you can kill your slave when ever you desire. The entire Tibet is ruled by a bunch of religious idiots. You can't take a bath for the entire year, and you can't trade with foreigners. Cummunists don't allow that! Liberated Tibet and kick out that stupid Dalai Lama, whatever that moron's name is. You guys don't know how much Tibet has changed. Most families in Tibet now has electricity. TV, VCR, stereo, micro-wave, you name it. Everything's made in China! They have shopping malls and super markets there. There's stock market brokers there. In fact, Tibet is one of the most popular European tourist attraction of asia. If Dalai idiot is still around, you be buying and selling slaves there right now! Everywhere would stink like hell because nobody teaches you the importance of taking a bath. If you say Tibetans are not Chinese because they have their own language and culture, let me ask you this: Is Hawaii part of USA? Is Okinawa part of Japan? Okinawa people have different language and culture than the Japanese. So should Okinawa gain independence from Japan?"
hehehehehehe
that's a fucked up thing to say
but you're right
If cheap labor were the only factor in determining the relative economic strength of a nation-state, the Romans would never have built and sustained their empire. Ditto for the Venicians, French, English, and Americans.
China is not *the* place to be. Just ask the Falung Gong. Just ask anyone who gives a fuck about freedom of assembly, freedom of speech, due process, or basic fucking human rights of any kind in China.
And from a business perspective, lack of these things, particularly in a world economy dominated by post-industrial persuits that require human creativity and unfettered access to information, is the kiss of death.
Sure, China is booming. But recall the USSR. Right up to 1989/90, many experienced Sovietologists were still predicting that the Soviet Union would allow only moderate reforms, and would certainly be around for another 50 years. That's the problem with a government with limited transparency - you never really know with any certainty what's really going on with the economy (or anything else for that matter).
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
All it took was a few new ICBM's aimed in our general direction to convince me.
That might explain the 20-30 port scans a day I get from IP addresses in China.
Wow, I cant wait..Just what consumers have been asking for -- Even MORE unrepairable throw-out erectronics designed to fail with time, and manuals written in unintelligble Engrish!
Bowie J. Poag
I cannot believe that the parent to this post was modded up. Some of the above points are valid concerns, but others are problems of the past.
Of course, every time there is talk about China, someone has to bring up something about Human Rights. But give me a break, clean water? food? China has gotten past that stage a long time ago. Right now overnutrition and obesity troubles much of the population. As for the judicial system, fairness is a matter of opinion. In China, criminals are punished more severely than in the US. Corruption in the governance is a problem in China, but the same problem exists in every country. The USA, for example, is a prime source of governmental scandals. China is working on a more efficient education system as we speak. The problem with education lies in overpopulation. Think about it, China has more than four times the population of America, andd merely building more schools will not be able to solve the problem overnight. The curriculum in Chinese primary and secondary schools includes a much more in depth understanding of subjects such as math and science than that of American schools.
I guess my point is that although China's fundations are not yet perfect, it is getting better at a faster rate than any other country.
Ihave been to Japan more than once. Each time that I remember Japan has had some "technological" advance. The Last time I was over in Japan was before the release of Nintendo 64. I had a chance to play with the N64. I didn't think it was bad, except it was in Japanese, and I could only read alittle of it.
Japan is a country were technology thrives. Your right, not everyone can offord the latest gizmos in Japan, but can everyone afford the latest gizmo in America? I know I can't. Japan does get the majority of the technology before it comes over into the US.
I don't think that you have every been to Japan. Japan is a country were alot of people own a computer. Even some of the simple stuff people use computerized stuff to buy. You can even buy a bag of rice through a vending machine if you want.
People in Japan are quite rich, richer than you think.
The same reason hi-tech went to South Korea, Taiwan, Malaysia. A minimum of infrastructure, enough education and cheap wages enforced by a repressive state. Boeing and Motorola love it.
. This sig unintentionally left blank. I meant to put something here, but I'm busy.
there's a reason for all these low scoring posts, it's because you guys don't know jack shit about china! hell, if you wanna brag about communism and how things are over there, why not actually GO there and see it for yourselves? on the surface it's not much different from the US, it's cot a capitolist economy, but the government IS corrupt and is practicly lead by the military. of all the people i've talked to in china, most of them get pissed when i refer to taiwan as a different country, sure they have thier bad parts, but that's ALL you people ever look at! GO TO CHINA! see the FSCKING place for yourselves and experience it before you babble on about all your bull shit! and to emphesise my point, i'll repeat my point, YOU PEOPLE KNOW SHIT ABOUT CHINA!
The Chinese government is unwilling to do that. People outside of China who hold anti-abortion beliefs may see their "one child policy" as immoral, but they consider it neccesary to prevent China's fast population growth rate from outpacing local food production. Also, the Chinese do not view a human embryo (fertilized or not) as a human being, as many "outsiders" do. This is the reason why China's biotech companies are expected to outpace American ones in the next 25 years, especially in the area of stem cell research. Unlike America, where Christianity-derived "pro-life" ethics have a major influence in governmental regulation regarding the bio sector, China does not. The "pro-life" and "anti-abortion" that were derived from Christian beliefs that affect biotech regulation America and other "Western" countries are virtually non-existent in mainland China, as Christianity is not the majority religion there.
As you can see, the "one-child" policy in China is neccesary check on population growth. In a study conducted in 2001 (found in Newsweek I believe), China's population is actually begining to decline as a result, leading to a reduced risk for food supply exhaustion.
Quite!
Japan makes a large portion of Boeing planes. eg whole wing sections. It's just assembled in the US. Kindof like how Honda is made in the USA.
And PC's are made by Dell.
From what I know Japan is par with us in a lot of fields ahead in some, behind in others. The differences arent very significant since most useful technology disseminates quickly.
Just look at that map of the world at night. The places you see high lighting density are pretty much the places that are advanced. Pretty much it goes like this:
Western Civilization and Japan
Eastern Orthodox rooted Civilization (Russia et al)
That's pretty much it. Everywhere else is developing.
Granted, it is theoretically possible for China to pull something like that off, but the government is the biggest hindrance. Until there is some serious reform (i.e. eliminate corruption), I don't see China catching up within the next 50 years.
BlackGriffen
Slashdot recently had a post about Seoul as an example of broadband done right. "The Bandwidth Capital of the World" In that very same issue they have a article about how China is goin g to be the next big PC boomtown, With legend computers ready to take charge over some of the big boys like Dell and IBM With only 11 percent of the population owning personal computers, the market saturation is nowhere near the likes of the U.S. and the U.K. It will be interesting to see if Dell will end up dominating the market as it has in the states, or if Legend truly has the upper hand...
They are C-O-M-M-U-N-I-S-T-S
/then/ we go about and start selling them crap.
/ass/ end poor to merely ass end poor isn't much of an improvement), and we ARE helping their elite communist class get even richer and more entrenched in power (ugh);
COMMUNISTS
They want us D-E-A-D
DEAD.
Why the HOLY FUCKING HELL are we selling them shit? Right after the USSR went down the tube and the nuke threat was gone we should have bombed the living hell out of them, but noooo, we let the largest single nation population density REMAIN communist (who's bright fucking idea was that one?) and
Now I mean if we where, say, err, taking over their culture and flooding it with American ideas and propaganda, then sure, hey, why not;
but nope, we are just supplying their economy with assloads of money, NOT helping the majority of their people very much at all (from
and then we go and start selling them high tech shit.
I repeat;
what the fuck?
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
I love reading everyone's opinions here. It's good for a laugh. How many people here have ever been to China or even anywhere in Asia for that matter? (Reading a book in high school or college doesn't count - we are talking physically being there and having your own experiences). Everyone bases their opinions on their westernized view points without even having the slightest idea of how Asia works socially and politically. This is why you are all a bunch of fools. You run around pounding your chests about ButScratcher 2.0 not being open source and haven't a clue how the rest of the world works. India and China are going to take over the market for the development of software and all you fools are going to help them by giving away all of your work for free. And as for China not making money: Ever hear of Legend Computers? Maybe you should take a look.
All that is going to happen is China is going to pass laws so that the Chineese companies make all the money and the foreign companies aren't allowed to do much business there. And in that case, when China is selling hardware by the score with our free software and making all this money then your college degree in basket weaving sure will pay off as an alternate source of income.
In the U.S. there is Microsoft with the lead in software development. Everyone crys that they got it unfairly, but IBM failed with OS2. Sun just wishes they could be the next Microsoft but with all the money they have to spend on diapers and tissues for Scott McNealy they are hurting. Oracle is a waste of space. They should merge with someone. So all the while while we are tearing ourselves apart while the wolves are at the door.
So what is going to happen? Everyone is going to knock down the American companies while you fools cheer. Then Chineese or Indian companies are going to move in with free/cheap software and cheap products and everyone is going to buy them. Then...off to the the uneployment line. And the fools that will make it happen? You guys!
Why don't you guys just take the penguin's dick out of your ass, get on a plane, and go see the world. Believe it or not in the rest of the world doesn't operate off this "it's cool to be a rebel" counter culture where everyone who is unable to make something of themselves tries to make their mark by bringing someone else down. So do yourselves a favor...put down your copy of "I'm so intellectually superior weekly" and travel and explore. You'll be surprised and how the rest of the world (especially Asia) looks at the U.S. and what they'd like to do to us if they got the chance.
So keep up the good work guys and you'll snatch defeat from the jaws of victory yet!
Trillion Dollar Bet that went bad?
That's right, China! No wonder they are doing better then everyone else!
According to Chang, both countries crammed their banks full of bonds, created growth by playing money games and attracting foreign direct investment. "Argentina," he wrote, "deferred reforms by living on foreign capital, and China is playing this same game, too. ... When the flow of international capital tightens again, China's deteriorating fiscal and debt conditions will come under international scrutiny."
High expectations for the Chinese economy are "grossly exaggerated," he warned, explaining that China's economic growth is declining and its banking system is in "disarray, posing a threat of destabilization to the international economy."
Click here for the rest (from WSJ Asia via)
I should have followed the link before posting.
Well Alex Chiu is a joke, Doesn't change the fact that communism=shit.
Perhaps in name only. Their unification with Britain, in so much as it was a true unification, was for the most part, a good thing. However a good portion of that union appears to be either dictatorial or mere lip service, which is not a true union at all. Independent countries only serve to cause conflict. It's natural that when more than one person is involved, the second will be a potential source of conflict. In order to eliminate this we must become unified as one.
If you have 100% of the population working but the monetary value of that work doubles, that appears to be what is called 'economic growth'...but it makes no sense.
Envision this scenario:
China, over the next 40 or 50 years, becomes an enormous economic juggernaut. With cheap labor, high tech industry, and a huge population, China begins to develop most of the world's goods for dirt cheap prices. World consumer choice is at an all time high.
Because of the political system in place within the country, the average standard of living doesn't increase significantly.
People are not stupid. The Chinese people will see how the majority are not benefiting from the economic prosperity and attempt to change the political system. The government in place will put down initial unrest, but a civil war could occur the likes of which we have never seen in the world. The world economy that has come to depend on the Chinese government for goods.
With the ensuing economic collapse of China during the civil war, the world is plunged into a depression comparable to the late 1920's and early 1930's. The US Federal Reserve could not handle the removal of a huge portion of the world economy from the picture.
Following the civil war, a democratic government is created in China, and the economy becomes similar to many western countries, with a higher standard of living and increased wages. The economic playing field is now leveled.
Either that, or everybody nukes everybody. Whatever happens, I'll be dead by then. Oh well.
Qualitas edurus commercium, nullus penitus net rimor, nullus deus beneficium
Im a molecular biology student sharing a house with Chinese government official learning english in Australia.
After a few beers one night I asked him what he thought of the America. He said that although there was alot of animosity by the general population towards the US (you guys did 'accidently' bomb their embassy...), that he thought on old Chinese proverb would hold true in the future. It translated kind of like this: "Neighbours fight with one another, but distance brings understanding" or "Distance makes Friendship stronger, closeness brings Dispute" or something like that.
Maybe the Pacific ocean will provide enough of a buffer to keep you guys out of each other hair geopolitically...
oohh, i forgot the US military bases in Japan... Doh!
I work in a shop where a lot of the engineers were imported from other countries, mostly from China, but some from Japan, and some from India. Americans are a minority.
The management does this so that they can control them by their green card applications and/or H1-B visa sponsorship. They work for significantly lower than market rate.
Without exception, none of these people are top rank; the vast majority of these people are not very good at all. They always come to me to have me solve their problems for them.
It's not their education. Most of them have better paper credentials than I have, and have attended U.S. Universities I could never afford to attend, even with scholarships.
They just don't know how to think properly. They have no problem solving skills, other than group-think.
I was impressed by only one of them, and they fired him. He wasn't born in the U.S., but moved here when he was very young, so he was Americanized at an early age.
There is one guy recent out of college who knows what he's doing, even though he's very green, but he was American born.
I think it's cultural. Americans just make better engineers because of how they were raised to think.
That's my 2 cents.
There is no reason to believe that this is inevitably a long-term state. The US is a mid-size country (by population), and food, geographic isolation, and natural resources are becoming less and less important. And other countries are becoming as attractive as the US for skilled international workers.
If the US continues to have a leadership role, it will be because it earns it. But that means that US politicians have to give up on their assumption that US predominance is a right that Americans are born with. Isolationist policies like those we have seen over the last few years will likely simply make the US less and less relevant to international affairs.
"...According to Nicholas Lardy, an expert on the mainland economy, "The official data overstate the pace of economic expansion ... if for no other reason than over the past decade there has been an extraordinary buildup of unsold and unsaleable inventories. While these inventories are counted as part of output and thus contribute to growth of gross domestic product, they are not utilized for either consumption or fixed investment. The real resources that have gone into the production of these goods has been largely wasted."
Take one example. "On average from 1990 to 1998, annual additions to inventories absorbed 42 percent of incremental output," much of it reflecting "the continued production of low-quality goods for which there is little or no demand." Considering the mainland's padded statistics, one must be very skeptical.
The economic rot, though, is much wider. The mainland banking system is crisis-ridden and corrupt. In an open political system, it would in all probability have collapsed by now, considering that half to two-thirds of all bank loans are nonperforming and growing.
High-level linkages between the perpetrators of such fraud, however, result in disinterested investigations. According to the Far Eastern Economic Review, "China Construction Bank has been involved in financing the information-technology business activities of President Jiang Zemin's eldest son." Still, banks like these control US$900 billion in individual savings. If people knew what was going on, there would be an instant run on the banks, which would bring the Chinese economy to a halt."
From: China dream alive and kicking?"
yes, they do have nukes. However, I dont think the Chinese are insane enough to dare use them against us. Why? Our nuclear forces are many times theirs, numerically, and qualitatively. A single Ohio class sub (24 triton missiles, 5 or 8 Mirvs per missle depending on who you ask, check sources at bottom of posting) could problably kill 50% or more of the chinese population. And Chinese ASW capabilities are pathetic to say the least, so I highly doubt they could take out an Ohio before it fired.
m /970620-cr.h tm
. ht m
MAD (mutually assured destruction), while barbaric in concept, does seem to work nicely. Proof you ask? The Soviets, even during the blackest moments of the cold war, never launched a ICBM at us, knowing that the USA would retaliate with a massive counter strike.
The Chinese do not have the ability in any way to neutralize our nuclear forces, and for them to use their nukes would result in the effective destruction of their own country.
While the Chinese government and society are quite different from Western government and society in thought, morals, etc, I think they are logical enough to see the utter absurbity of using their nukes against the US.
Sources:
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/slb
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/slbm/ssbn-726
Lawyers, MBA's, RIAA? A jedi fears not these things!
...90% of the population is poor.
What an interesting euphemism...I seem to understand it destablized, but it was nothing compared to the Great Depression.
a GDP appears to be an easy thing to change
acreage per person as America does, they could be FAT too.
As expected, the eurofags try to defend China and put down America. You little pissants are funny.
Mix that in with the arrest and murder of innocent civilians, the suppression of individual rights and liberty, the shooting down of an American plane in international waters, the not-so-subtle theft of nuclear secrets from Los Alamos, etc, etc - boy they sure are great! I think China is (or should be) our primary adversary in the world - they are against (and are afraid of) everything America stands for.
I eet yoo foost post af tuh yoo eet mai woo fang fist.
i eet yoo like i eet rat and yoo in stoo pid um air ick uh
How about some perspective you moron. The system you so inaccurately describe is designed at its core to protect defendants, and it does so, probably too well. The Chinese judicial system, on the other hand, like everything in China, is designed to do little else than serve the military. For instance, hundreds of times every year, a chinese general walks into a courtroom with a political dissident, and ORDERS the judge to find him guilty on the spot. The convicted man is then brought to a nearby area where he or she is sedated and his or her organs are HARVESTED and sold, and the general makes a nice personal.
Now, I would like to see your attempt to find a parallel to THAT in the U.S. judicial system you clueless child.
#1 China is not a "commie country". Sure the government is dominated by the "Communist Party" and is the product of a "communist revolution", but that doesn't make it a "commie country" in anything other than name.
#2 Communism means a lot of things. In the case of China their brand is "Maoist", or used to be anyways. In traditional Marxism Communism is the end state of a historical process, the idea being that a strong State run by "the Workers" will be created first to restructure society in the interest of people (i.e. along Socialist lines). Eventually the State will "whither away" and the Communist utopia will be created.
#3 Marx anticipated this happening in an advanced industrialized Capitalist system. Then along came Marxist-Lennism (i.e. the Russian Revolution) and the Maoists. Both of which were lead by peasants.
#4 Soviet Russia and Communist China are both really bad examples of theoretical Communism or Socialism, they are both very unique systems which, though influenced by Communism/Socialism, are not at all true to their foundation. (Which perhaps says something about the feasibility of said foundation).
#5 Both Soviet Russia and Communist China have been hugely succesful if you measure success along the lines of literacy or economic growth.
I'm an American businessman in the import- export business, so as you might guess, my frequent travels take me to many places around the world, on every continent.
I wanted to share my experience in the "great" country of China.
So, I was in Shenzhen China last December for about a week on business. A bit of background: Shenzhen, like Hong Kong and a few other places, is a "Special Economic Zone" that the Chinese government set up to try and give foreigners the illusion that China really ISN'T a drab, decaying fascist state that's economically languishing behind the rest of the world. Here, rules are relaxed and capitalism is encouraged, not surppressed. Well, let me tell you this, if this is China's best, then I'd hate to see the worst.
Anyways, when I stepped off the train from Hong Kong (which was no paradise itself, as that place has gone down the shitter since the Brits left) I was shocked. The whole place smelled like a combination of vomit and dog shit that had been left out in the sun for a day or so. And it was probably BECAUSE there was vomit and dog shit all over. I almost retched, and I've certainly been in some sketchy places in my travels but NOTHING like this.
People spit everywhere. Trash litters the streets. I found myself looking DOWNWARD much more than looking FORWARD when I walked.
Noise pollution is endemic. It doesn't help that their infernal language consists of abrupt rapid fire tones that is a cacophony for any human ear to bear. How do they speak and listen to that shit without going crazy all day long is beyond me.
Anyways, Chinamen stink -- literally. There is no concept of personal hygiene whatsoever. Meetings with even top officials were hourlong sessions of having to endure hot sweaty bodies and rancid breath eminating from mouths missing a few teeth. Geez, at least use deodorant for crying out loud.
The hypocrisy, corruption, and double-standards from the highest levels of government on over are the norm at the same time China opens up to the world. Foreigners get charged as much as five times for transportation, lodging, food, and everything else.
Traffic is horrible. Rules are non-existent except for at traffic lights: red means to go fast, green means to go REALLY REALLY fast.
The Chinese people themselve are pretty apathetic and everyone just wants to get out of that hell hole, so you see smuggling rings shipping people out hidden in truck beds and ships, all too often with tragic results.
The whole country, in my assessment is a lost case. Even the cheap labor can be found in Southeast Asia or Mexico. Same goes for pirated stuff -- SE Asia and Eastern Europe will keep on churning them out.
Anyways, the one redeeming quality were the girls. I paid 100 yuan (about $12 US) for a great fuck, with a 16 year old who seemed quite new and "unblemished" if you get my drift. Boy, was she tight, made all the right noises, sucked and fucked all night long and let me cum all over her. Much better than even the vaunted Thai whores, and worlds apart from anything in Las Vegas or in Europe. Best bargain I have EVER found in my life!
So yeah, screw the hell hole that's China. It's a lost cause of a country suspsended by a hollow facade of so-called new capitalism that's just show more than anything.
There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Not to defend the government of China, but what about Singapore? They seem to be doing quite well with substantially less of these essential items than America.
Does anyone know exactly when the term "Yellow Peril" was coined? I think it was done by the Hearst controlled papers in the beginning of the 20th century? (holy shit - i just searched google and actually the term goes back further and is associated with all sorts of ignominious US history)
Gives a good idea how long we have been listening to FUD about China/Japan/etc taking over our lives and wives. 100+ years.
But American journalists and politicians do need their enemies. I just wish the enemy would be Mars so we could get colonization in gear...
The devil is in how you define 'prosperity' and for whom. The growth of the American economy might look great in macro terms and for large investors, but the loss of jobs hurts very much the poor working stiffs like me. You might point to unemployment figures as refuting the loss of jobs, but if you carefully consider in which sectors jobs were created and lost, you will see my point. For labor, skilled positions paying enough to support a family are few and far between compared to ten years ago and a world apart from 25 years ago. The sector that gained most positions is the service industry (read: unskilled or less skilled labor). End result is the greater separation between rich and poor, but hey, as long as Warren Buffett is happy, everything is ok right?
Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -- Carl Sagan
...Which is not based on how much money, how many lawyer and legal threat you use, and even sometimes who you "know". Sure. [Sarcasm off]. Mainland China may not be a "democratic" country, but let us be real. Our judiciaire system isn't perfect either,and their apparently fit the usage that their governement have of it.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Why is it that so many US citizens are, (as we aussies would say), up 'm selves? China may or may not become the global hi-tech leader...it may or may not become the leading superpower. One thing IS certain... the US is bound to lose its pre-emminence. Why?: When you're at the top there's nowhere to go but down, and one thing history DOES show us is that nations rise and fall. The US, being at its zenith, will now decline (maybe slowly, maybe fast). Get over it folks, and start planning for a GRACEFUL decline ...unless your country embraces the Gotterdammerung model (Lord knows you've got enough weapons of mass destruction to see that through, you won't need help from any "rogue" or "communist" states).
..stop thinking nationally at all...does it matter who leads as long as there's a profit to be made? Follow the lead of ex-aussie Rupert Murdoch! *relaxes tongue*
OR..*puts tongue in cheek*
So it'll basically be like America right?
Get your Unix fortune now!
Hey, this has sparked an idea! Check it: sell everything in America and close up shop, fire all your lazy, fat, overpaid American employees, and then dash to China to start the entrepreneurial Gold Rush!
... $8.50 per hour should be enough income if both parents work 60+ hours a week. Those fat, lazy bastards! Hoo boy I'm glad we don't pay taxes in America anymore."
Oh, wait, this is already being done.
And if everyone is doing it, it must be a good investment. The dotcoms clearly showed that. Praise Jesus that the investment industry found out that mathematical models of animal-herd movements produced the largest returns when applied to stock markets.
Due to my latest invention, a Psycho-Temporal Radio Receiver, I can now reveal the private thoughts of a future internationalist businessman: "Hey, it looks like sales in America have really taken a dive. Why is that? They should be able to buy our Chinese stuff
Okay, okay, sarcasm off. But if I hear one more next-big-opportunity story, I'm gonna barf.
[also misbehaves on Kuro5hin as Peahippo]
I've always wanted to visit China, but I'm 6'2" and light skin. I'm confident that I'll fit in though.
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/London/Writings/Streng thStrong/invasion.html
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free
Oops, I left a space in the middle of the link. This is a good story read it.
The Unparalleled Invasion
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free
China is subsidising RAW materials to win the jobs.
Now with China in WTO, it will be interesting to see IF trips is enforced. Once China exports knock-off pharmecuticals, and other high value added goods to USA, then we shall see. In the meantime, I applaud the evil contaminated copper wire electricals China exports - copper that has iron content, or brittle, black rot syndrome, and UL marked 'switches' that are not. Nobody is gusty enough to spank them for such. Good technology is reliable.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
It looks like a lot of Slashdot readers from the U.S. are just afraid that China might become the #1
economic power in the world.
So they try to find silly reasons to mod China down.
Give China a few more years and hopefully democracy will evolve.
Not even close, although the US has a lead in GDP it certainly isn't the sole superpower. The EU zone as a whole actually has a larger GDP. Japan has a comparable GDP even in prolonged recession.
The US superpower status is military. The EU could match the US in military power if they were prepared to devote the same insane proportion of their budgets to military hardware. However doing that would cost the courtries their welfare state services which seems a lot to give up just to build weapons for the sake of it.
The bellyaching of the US right about China has nothing to do with human rights. The US right never gave a hang about human rights abuses by Pinochet, Marcos or the House of Saud. What they are really upset about is demographics and economics. It is a lot easier for a backward country to grow at 15% as it catches up than it is for a developed country to sustain 4% growth. The only way that China can fail to overtake the US in terms of economic power is to have a civil war and be broken into pieces. Same goes for India.
Bush and the cronies who control him could not give a damn about human rights or the Falun Gong. Their speeches about human rights and democracy are as hypocritical as their speeches on corporate responsibility - one of the chief Enron scam artist who bilked his division out of $15 million in bonuses while reporting $500 million is phony profits is still secretary for the army. If you think that fine speeches about democracy are worth anything I have a lorry load of Florida chads to sell you.
Military power follows economic power. China with a population four or five times that of the US could if it chose sustain a military the same size should it choose to do so. The militarist faction of the right can only understand prestige and power and cannot imagine that any country that has the option of building a superpower status military would give up the opportunity.
Fortunately most nations don't have the same inferiority complex that drives the US right. China, Germany, France, Britain have all done the empire bit and don't need to do it again.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
I guess it takes a while for the real scoop on China's "golden economy" to hit the lazy U.S. press
I won't bother with your other claims, which are just as bogus, in their own ways... but one really, really rankles me.
Wen Ho Lee was cleared of all charges regarding any events at Los Alamos, with the exception of a really bogus one for having backed up his hard drive like everyone else, just so they could nail him with something. Note that none of the "spying" charges stuck.
The Clinton administration needed a PR fix after their campaign financing relationship with the Chinese was exposed, particularly Al Gore's involvement with the fiasco over soliciting and receiving funds from the Buddist Temple.
They needed to show they could take a "hard line" with the Chinese, and ended up scapegoating a U.S. Citizen with a security clearance higher than many of the cabinet members from that administration were ever able to get.
It was an incredibly racist act, and it was unforgivable, and dirty politics at its worst.
Unfortunately, the government can't be sued unless it chooses to allow it.
If someone is going to play politics over this, I hope that a suit is allowed by the Republicans so that it comes to a head right before the next presidential election, and the publicity screws Al Gore out of another one.
Don't all chinese citizens have to configure their browsers to go through:
block-free-speech.proxy.china.gov ?
Live web cams
Sure, we have a freer country than China, but the gap is not as great as some people would have you believe.
Evil Tienamen Square murdering, political slave labor force creating, brand spanking new submarine and ICBM having, communist fucking bastards.
Your arguments about who could or couldn't be a military superpower are beside the point, as are your comments about whether human rights in China are an issue to the US government.
I agree with you about Bush and his ilk. But the fact is, over the past decade, there has been a huge degree of domestic dispute in the US about how we should deal with Chinese human rights issues. Is engagement a better means of influencing their behavior in that area, or is economic punishment?
China's armed forces hover at around 2.8M active personnel, while the US forces stand at about 1.3M. Include reserve forces, and the Chinese military balloons to well over 4x the size of the US military. So in fact it does choose to sustain a military of the same size (larger, actually).
I understand that you're upset about American military, economic, and cultural hegemony. But to chalk it up solely to an "inferiority complex" is a bit childish, don't you think? I agree with you that the US could stand to curb its military expendatures quite a bit, but as history has shown, power abhors a vacuum. The moment the US disengages from a region, someone else will step in to assert control.
None of the countries you mentioned gave up great power status willingly - their empires were wrested from them.
It's convenient having the US as a scapegoat, because while they're lording it over you, you can snarl about how overbearing they are, and if you get in trouble, they'll still be there to save your bacon. I guess memories are selective. Folks remember Pinochet and forget WW I, WW II, the Marshall Plan, the Berlin Airlift, etc.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
As long as American not Chinese companies continue to attract the best Chinese minds, as long as China has no domestic defense, computer hardware, or advanced manufacturing industry and as long as most Chinese goods are made in China, but designed in Europe/America China has no hope of becoming a real super power. Chinese economy has to grow at least 6 percent a year just to keep up with the ageing and growth of its population. 6% for China is like 2% growth for the United States. Any less growth and percapita GDP would start to shrink! China can't even produce a modern fighter jet, a modern car, tank, ship, etc... Russia is better off than China, but no one pays attention to the Russians because there are 12x more Chinese. The Russians have a much more advanced industrial and technical base and here we are calling China the next Super Power? The Chinese government keeps 150 million people on tiny unproductive farms, where they make less than 1 dollar a day, just so they wont have to be counted in the unemployment statistics. I ask you, how are they a super power? They keep food prices 20% higher than the world price just to keep the economy stable. Eliminate that one safety (as the WTO should) and 150 million Chinese farmers will find survival nearly immposible.
Yeh, the ming dynasty (not the emperor, i forget who it was who started it) cut itself off from the world. Built the great wall, etc.
Before the ming, China was way ahead of Europe and the middle east in trading and stuff. By the end of the Ming Dynasty they were behind.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
No, thats true, a lot of them went to Canada as well. Its been fairly well established that the North American free trade pact has benefitted Canada and Mexico moreso than the US.
If cheap labor were the only factor in determining the relative economic strength of a nation-state, the Romans would never have built
WHAT? Are you not familiar with the concept of slavery? The Romans didn't pay their workforce, they whipped them. The same can be said for the south in the US prior to the Civil War. Wow, you are demonstrating an astoundingly bad grasp of history here.
China is not *the* place to be. Just ask the Falung Gong.
The US is not *the* place to be. Just ask the Branch Davidians.
And from a business perspective, lack of these things, particularly in a world economy dominated by post-industrial persuits that require human creativity and unfettered access to information, is the kiss of death.
How do you presume to state that Chinese citizens cannot be creative? Microsoft does much of its research (some of which lead to MP4) in China. You're just in denial now, offering up ridiculous reasons why everywhere but the US must fail.
The responses meander off into staw-man territory but don't acknowledge economics.
Some, not all, programming jobs are going to go to China, India and Russia. Deal with it, its already happening.
I disagree. Big Business wants tight governmental control over the people so their toes aren't stepped on, and loose control over themselves, so they can do what they please. This means that with the money they're making, they can afford to set governmental policy through bribery (even more easily than in North America) and the people, who are unable to assemble or speak out about the businesses fucking them over are going to be put to work.
You don't need people with freedom to have a strong economy. If you chain research scientists to their desks and demand that they work, you can squeeze enough work out of them to make it worth your while.
And don't forget the lesson of Hitler's Germany. He turned a broken state into a real world power, and he did it without the whole 'freedom' thing. Nazi Fascism isn't any prettier than Communism.
The growth of the American economy might look great in macro terms and for large investors, but the loss of jobs hurts very much the poor working stiffs like me.
If you can't compete with an illiterate Mexican who is glad to not be working in the fields under the punishing summer sun, then perhaps you need to ask yourself why you are a "working stiff" after receiving a free high school education and the opportunity to go to college on the GI Bill?
I know a Salvadoran who lived in poverty, came to the US, worked as a maid ("low-paid sevice industry"), saved her money, and started a restaurant. Now she has a chain of three, and is doing quite well. Nor is she the only poor immigrant success story I know.
Save money - go to school, get the right skills - don't have kids until you can afford them. Very simple.
Anyone who is "hurting" should not have time to be reading Slashdot!
Hilter transformed German 60+ years ago, more technology time is required. All the is happening is China is stepping in to fill the Russian void. Besides there isn't enough cheap laboror in the world to allow the chinese to live like americans, and they suffer from political insitbilties and extreme cultural differences.
...doesn't Japan provide ALL of China's internet backbone connections?
Why China will NEVER be a high-tech super power, at least while they are Socialist.
Picture Wing Wei, recent CS graduate with mad coding skills.
Microsoft (Or you favorite large software Co. with big pockets) : Wing! We can offer you a big paycheck, visas for your immediate family to come to Seattle, (and a battery of lawyers to help get your extended family over here), access to the best healthcare in the world, and a whole bunch of freedom, like the freedom to watch "The Sopranos" while laying on your couch with a Guinness and a Domino's w/ Extra Pepperoni.
China: We can offer you,..... um..... Population Controls, No Say in the Government, Rampant Corruption, Extreme Government interference in your life, and "To Each According to their Need"
Wing: Werd. Evil Empire, take me to yon BMW dealership.
Hey! You spoofed the URL dealie. Pretty sneakie. The only reason that goatse.cx pic looks so weird is the bad lighting.
Au contraire. You don't want global powers that don't know the value of steamy Hot Karl. That would be a shame. And I hear they make a lot of local meth there. I think they're ready for a leadership role. I just wish they'd legalize drugs and then I'd move there. I like the South myself.
Well, I have the unique perspective of a geek who just spent a bunch of time in China. It's an interesting place; plenty of contrasts, the bicycle rickshaw with a load of LCD displays outside Tsinghua university was one of them. The funny thing is the cities are capitalist and growing at a considerable rate. The countryside, where the bulk of the population is, is neither. And to move between the countryside and the city you need a visa. That sounds like a stable situation to me.
Already many of the cities have a comparable standard of living to the US; except it's very different. I stayed at the Holiday Inn in Shenzhen and enjoyed a view of Hong Kong from my towering hotel room; the city was beautiful. 20 years ago 6000 people lived in a fishing village there. They made it a special economic zone and now 6 million people live there. Not a bad demonstration of the power of capitalism.
I talked to some girls who worked at a nearby coffee shop. They were basically indentured servitudes for the coffee shop. They lived in a company dorm and the company gave them food. The company was, oddly enough, based out of Taiwan.
So that was a little strange.
The lack of a free press made people's view of america interesting; basically they had no idea of what life was like in the US and asked a lot of silly questions. But, they did have access to US movies, through the form of street markets or random guys on street corners who ask you if you want a DVD or VCD. So many people had seen US movies and were curious whether movies such as American Pie truely represented life in America.
Conclusions? China is still a third world country with some parts approaching second world quality of living. It'll be a while before they give us a run for the money. Smart, ambitious people in China still want to come to the US.
-Jay Thomas
http://www.uiuc.edu/~jthomas2
In the university where work as a research assistant, the majority of PhD students are from China and India. Chinese students invariably tend to be the best ones. It seems like by the time they come here they have already done A LOT of practical hitech research in their universities.
Because of this, (and because most of them don't mind being paid 2k$/month or less) a lot of departments actually prefer to hire Chinese students for tech projects.
Many of them will go back to China once their studies are over.
It is also worth considering that for each student that makes it to the US, maybe 100 will stay in China.
And, as the article says: "Hundreds of universities with strong tech departments have been created."
Is this enough to say that China is headed towards becoming the place where hi tech is conceived and grown ?
I think that, IF these government-funded policies will go on, it will be just a matter of time (maybe a couple of generations, maybe less
And btw, it seems to me that they are very inclined toward the sharing of knowledge and information,
giampy
We learn from history that we learn nothing from history - Tom Veneziano
The great wall was built a long time before the Ming dynasty. I think it was about 300 BC under the Ch'in (forget the modern spelling) dynasty.
It is official; Netcraft confirms: *BSD is dying
One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.
You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.
FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.
Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.
OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.
Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.
All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.
Fact: *BSD is dying
You must keep in mind that many of the folks you interviewed were born and raised in China, and have now been injected into a completely foreign environment. They probably don't speak English too well, and that is a major hindrance to elevating to a managerial position. They probably came to the United States to give their children better lives.
My father has an M.D. and Ph.D., but refused to take on managerial/project lead positions at a major biotech firm - because the salary he got was sufficient (along with stock options) and he got to spend more time with me.
I am now pursuing a B.S. in EE at a top engineering school (whatever those rankings mean, heh), and have every desire to excel in the workplace and become a manager/project lead/etc. Plenty of work experience here (writing code, not flipping burgers). I am economically self-sufficient in America (I was born in China) at age 18. I decided to do this because my parents worked hard for their lives here and I don't want to be a parasite until I'm 24. They deserve a nice, early retirement.
You gotta keep it in perspective. Ask those interviewees if they've got children, and where they expect their children to go to school.
In other words, ask them where they expect their CHILDREN to be in 20 years instead of asking them where they want to be in 5 - it's sort of a moot point in the eyes of an immigrant family.
That's the idea of immigration - picking up your family and moving for infinitely better hopes of success down the family lineage, not simply selfish desires to abandon your progeny for a six-figure salary and a company car.
Of course, this only applies to the first couple of generations. After that, smooth sailing should be predicted...
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
As a chinese living in US, I certainly wish china be prosper, its people live better lives. Though I read the articles with great interets, I found that the analysis failed to make the case.
It is true, that china has a economy with certain captitalistic features. But if you want to see the long term trend, you'd better take the political regime into consideration. Institution framework is the most important thing for long term economic development. I know human rights is a tired topic for many of my countryman. Their excuse for china lagging behind as shown in many of the above posts, is china's large population. Isn't it a joke? When you on the one hand to claim china's pure number is its advantage, on the other hand, claiming china's large number is the reason for its backwardness. If you want to compare the population density, take on Japan.
While reading the reports, I feel the writers don't have a sense of reality. A day spent in the country side (800 million plus), or with a migrant (100 million plus) in the cities, will wake them up pretty quickly. It will be good to see that the sweatshop can hire 200 out of 2000 and pay little, and the rest will just die quietly. No human being is like that. I find the last portion of the latter report (against democracy) is sick. Democracy has nothing to do with distribution of wealth. The most important thing for china is Rule of Law.
Nationalism is pretty popular among chinese youth. While chinese student stoned the US embassy, a lot of politician here thought the government was behind it. They were clueless. The situation is pretty similar to Germany in the 1930s. A power of past is rising again. Dreaming about the glory, want to have it by any means. That would be certainly the worst case, I hope the free flow of information can reach vast majority of chinese asap, but again, technology is a double edged sword, it can be used as propaganda tools, to feed the frenzy.
Well, you can see that I am a pessimist. I hope I am wrong.
Y'know, it never ceases to amaze me how geeks who deride ignorant end-users and others who simply spit tech-buzzwords ape the same behavior when it comes to anything outside their immediate sphere of knowledge. I don't think I'm the first to posit that there's such a thing as a political geek, and I think I qualify, so it's roughly similar for me to read any post on China here as it is for anyone with computer literacy to wander the archives of "Computer Stupidities." (if that site is still extant) China does have an emerging middle class, but also a hyper-expanding upper class, and a stagnant and simply huge lower class-set. Disposable income--as well as power, water, most other basic amenities of life-- are present in China, and the country is simply Geared to modernize and make up for lost time. This is not to say China is a threat to the 'States. Hardly. That's like saying the U.S. was a threat to Britain as we caught up to, then surpassed, their pre-eminent place on the global stage. They don't want to f--- over the U.S., they want to be a peer of the U.S., to achieve for their citizenry the standards of living that are present in the most advanced states, because that is where China has historically been (for, oh, four-thousand contiguous years of recorded human history; I seriously think they're a great example of an actively evolving static governmental structure when viewing dynastic transtions and reigns) and it is where China wants to be again. Russia dropped the ball when the power void opened and there was no one to fill it except organized crime and those who retained power, influence or money. China's transition, while mired in rhetorical bs, is more gradual, allowing for systems of infrastructure to develop and take root. If y'all didn't know, recently China's wireless network supassed the U.S.'s usership. At least according to CCTV-9 and the economists (Westerners all, mind you) they brought on.
But what do I know. I'm just a poli sci major. Why trust me if you don't trust a coder on softwa--oh, wait, you do.
-An American living in a Chinese city that is neither the true boonies or a coastal town. --and, Yes, they Do exist. You can't fit 1.25-1.4 billion people in a country without having copius mid-sized cities. It ain't another world, just another part. *sighs*
I can't compete because labor is becoming more and more a commodity on a broad 'global' scale. I can't compete with someone who is willing to work for minimum wage in a sweatshop (here in San Jose) doing E/M assembly for instance, living 12 to an apartment just to take the money and support their family back home. Don't fool yourself, the labor market is not sustainable for them either. You have a choice of either living in poverty here, or becoming migrant labor.
As far as education, not everyone can work your IT job. Remember that (by definition) half of the population has an IQ of 100 or less. Are these people condemned to compete with sweatshop migrant labor because they cannot complete a higher degree? The free high school is no longer sufficient to provide an acceptable standard of living.
I know a Salvadoran who lived in poverty, came to the US, worked as a maid ("low-paid sevice industry"), saved her money, and started a restaurant. Now she has a chain of three, and is doing quite well. Nor is she the only poor immigrant success story I know.
Ahh the great American myth. That Salvadoran woman surely employs a number of people at marginal subsistence levels so that she can live more comfortably and thus poverty is perpetuated. Not everyone can be a restaurant owner or the equivalent. There must always exist labor to staff the businesses, labor will always outnumber non-labor, and if the standard of living is forced further down by the introduction of sweatshop labor, bad bad things result.
Anyone who is "hurting" should not have time to be reading Slashdot!
Listen to what you're saying! Is leisure a luxury? Is the weekend a privilege?
For full disclosure, I did receive that free high school education, and I am using that GI Bill for which I spent years in the military, you're welcome.
Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -- Carl Sagan
I spent 6 months in Moscow and 5 traveling around China. Its like being on 2 different planets. The Russians are decades ahead of the Chinese in everything from public transportation, to basic services like having clean water, toilets, phones even roads. Not to mention cleaner streets, more cars etc.. In many ways China is like Russia after world war 2 and Russia is a lot worse than my home town of New York. Sorry to dissapoint but the Chinese need toilets more than they need computers. In some places in China its darn near primitive. Until they develop an industrial back bone we have nothing to fear. No wonder they divide the nations into 1st world, 2nd world, 3rd world. There is a huge difference.
I'm sorry but isnt it thew same old story about the salvadorian maid u always tell. its getting old.
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
If so, that's a very strange definition. People like to believe they are middle class when they're not though...What do you need a propane tank for anyways?
Tres interesting post. Would have modded it up...
That's a widely-disputed claim.
You singled out my example of the Roman empire as proof of my ignorance of history, but my comment was that if cheap labor were the only factor in determining the relative economic strength of a nation-state, the Romans wouldn't have had an empire. And I'm not sure about the relevance of your comment about the US South prior to the Civil War. The South underperformed the North to a huge degree specifically because they used slave labor. It was only after the Civil War that the American economy, no longer dragged down by the Southern plantation economy, was able to truly modernise.
Just ask the Branch Davidians.
I'm not going to apologize for the US government's handling of the Branch Davidians standoff. But it's specious to compare the Branch Davidians incident with the clampdown on the Falung Gong. They are completely different in scale and cause. It's also instructive to remember that while the FBI was acquitted of wrongdoing, the repurcussions from the event have led to inquiries, a storm of debate, and changes within the FBI. There is no such internal debate regarding handling of the Falung Gong in China, because the system prohibits it.
I don't make any contention that the US is even remotely perfect, or that it's the only place to be, or even that it's going to maintain hegemony forever. But I do believe that whatever nation-state overtakes the United States will only do so on the basis of a social structure rooted in respect for the individual.
China is making huge strides. They have tremendous industrial and high-tech potential, and smart, hardworking people. That's obvious. But the Soviet Union had those same advantages, and their inability to reconcile their technological progress with the squelching of free thought made their experiment doomed to failure from the start.
It's my belief that the Chinese system of government will have to evolve if the country is to ever approach, much less overtake, the US economically.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Despite the claims of filthy parasites of capitalism like George W Bush, human rights violations still run rampant in China, and free trade with China is not going to improve that situation. If anything, it'll just force the Chinese slaves to work harder, and make the wallets of various American and Chinese tycoons fatter. What really needs to happen is for the despotic Chinese government to be replaced by a government that treats its citizens like citizens, not mules. There needs to be strict enforcement of human rights, the freedoms granted by the United States Constitution and strict enforcement thereof, a minimum wage on par with that of the United States, worker's rights on par with those of the United States, labor unions with power as in the United States, and so forth. As you can probably imagine, none of this will ever happen so long greedy as tycoons are at the helm of the Chinese government.
In summary, this is a Bad Thing.
The only way the typical /.er can pick up a chick is with a forklift. -- AC
His being in bed with corrupt big business executives was well demonstrated during the California energy crisis last year, when our Governor made repeated appeals to him and the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, only to be told to go screw himself, and in almost as many words. If that's not proof of his involvement, I don't know what is. It's also proof that he's a vengeful Nixon type. Probably compiled a blacklist of all the states that didn't vote for him. "California didn't vote for me, so I'm going to hurt them badly, and make a few hundred million bucks off their sorry asses in the process." At the rate things are going with the corporate corruption scandal, we'll find out soon...
The only way the typical /.er can pick up a chick is with a forklift. -- AC
The US is the 3rd largest nation on earth.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
When you see pictures of "the great wall" you are seeing the Long City built by the Ming Dynasty. An origional wall was built long in the past of tamped earth, but it, for the most part, no longer stands.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
"Basically they had no idea of what life was like in the US and asked a lot of silly questions. But, they did have access to US movies."
Tell them that it's just like the movie "AI"...
Washing fish. while a little heplful. isn't very, because the fish is likely contaminated through and through. You do gut it before eating it? *remembers a Slayers episode where it finally dawns on Lina that the worm she used as bait was in the fish's stomach*
This leads me to the conclusion that the US doesn't want to catch binLaden, because then they'll lose their excuse for implementing these draconian domestic and international policies, plus the US threatening to veto the entire UN mission if US troops are forced to follow international human rights agreements. Clearly binLaden is protected by the US Government, he's their excuse for global domination. Mmmmmmmmmmkay.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
And plus securing US airports is pointless, in Nigeria you pay $50 and they'll let you past the security checks, pay $50 more and they'll let you on the plane without security checks, so you can hijack an international 747 and smash it into any building you want in any country you want. Securing airports is a worldwide requirement, the current efforts in the US only are half measures. Saying that next WTC can be prevented by just tightening up domestic security is just PR.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
I think the best deterrant to terrorists hijacking planes is the fact that most of the passengers will likely be more than happy to beat them to a bloody pulp with their bare hands if they try. That's probably the real reason why there hasn't been a hijacking since 9/11.
The only way the typical /.er can pick up a chick is with a forklift. -- AC
Oh, and if they are legislated out of business, expect widespread civil disobedience, because it WILL be known to the public through the media. And once the media gets its hands on it and hypes it up, people will be PISSED. The media can be a powerful ally at times.
The only way the typical /.er can pick up a chick is with a forklift. -- AC
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
The FBI doesn't want all your privacy - have you ever heard of the expression, "Ask for a mile, take only an inch and they'll be grateful"? Actually I don't know if this expression exists. FBI will ask for everything, and then they'll settle on having backdoors in all encryption algorithms, stuff that would make RMS pissed before 9/11, but this way at least you get to keep all your other rights - this is how they want you to see it.
Not in old Communist Russia. That's a very American idea echoed through the Courts, conspiracy circles and media. Remember that Bill Gates had to sit in Court and defend himself, penalty for a monopoly in the US is 3 times profit for the period of the monopoly, my guess is maybe a $20billion fine could have been theoretically imposed on Microsoft if Bill said the wrong stuff (shouted at the Judge). If someone tried to take from you the company you'd built up over decades you'd feel like your children are being taken away. Of course in the movies the assumption is that every monopoly always says the right thing after being advised and rehearsed by hundreds of the best lawyers. This keeps the Judges happy even in the event of gross violations so you need some power apart from law to regulate runaway corporations, just add Arnold Scwarzenegger to this and it's a wrap. Providing it's an enforced law in every country Microsoft sells in. Trouble is if the US legal system gives Microsoft too much trouble they can just move to China/Korea and fire all their employees in the US, and a big corporation can threaten any other country with this "If you implement those new child labour laws Unilever, Coca Cola, GM, Ford, etc. will move all our factories that pay 80% of your country's taxes to Nigeria, then when 90% of your citizens are unemployed they'll throw you out of Government"A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
I'm sorry but isnt it thew same old story about the salvadorian maid u always tell. its getting old.
Well I know a lot of Salvadoran maids. One runs a chain of restaurants. Another works as a hotel maid, but she saved enough for her children to go to college.
A third works at home making empanadas for maid #1. She is probably the "poorest," having never learned English, but made enough to have a home theater with surround-sound and to raise her daughter. The daughter is a secretary and has married another recent Salvadoran immigrant who went to a tech school, and did DSLAM installs. He did get laid off recently, but produced local music parties in a club to make money until he could get back to doing telco work.
As Americans, we are spoiled rotten. We have no clue how rough the rest of the world is. We forget that our poorest people live better than most of the population of the world. We often fail to understand why we are part of the 1/6 of the world with a "western" standard of living and a "western" economy.
We don't even understand how we got here, the role of freedom, open markets, and property rights. We think we can simply legislate everyone out of poverty, when there is a long list of countries that tried that and failed. You can't fool the economy. The rules of economy are not well understood, but like physics, there are rules.
And we are going to have to understand how those with low IQs play into the future. I believe that most that have low IQs have other "intelligences" such as emotional intelligence. I've met people with less capability for technical thought than I have that have better business ability or better graphical thinking. Of course, we will soon be hacking our own DNA, so the long-term future might be more interesting.
What we do need is to ensure that there are market signals to encourage people to live up to their potential and allow them to maximize their productive value.
For full disclosure, I did receive that free high school education, and I am using that GI Bill for which I spent years in the military, you're welcome.
That's great! You are a success story that others can follow.
But E/M assembly is a godsend for those in other countries, compared to most of the other options. "Sweatshop" is an interesting concept, but you sweat a heck of a lot more working in the fields doing susistance or low value-add agriculture.
As to "sweatshops in San Jose" I will bet you that most of those recent immigrants are saving. They might not be able to get much better jobs for themselves, but they are making sure their children will be able to do better than they did.
They made a choice to move hundreds, in some cases thousands of miles for a better life. They risked a great deal. They are pro-active.
ballknocker
Your stopries about poor imigrants achieving american dream are touching but are an exception rather than the rule. I live in Russia near Chinese border and has been to China and US. I've seen poverty in tghe us, and I'm talking about regualt working class families not bums or drug addicts. Regardless of what you say working as a maid (or any other min wage servicejob) barely allows to pay for food and shelter in America. It may sound starnge but the lifes of millions of working Americans is not any difffrent from the lifeds of hundreds of millions poor Chineese farmers.
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
b@llkn0k37