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Linux Bios will boot the EPIA in about 5s but it doesn't support FreeBSD. Plan9 doesn't do the EPIA's graphics or sound, I don't fancy getting Windows 2000 to boot from read only media. As for Linux, I'd rather wait 30s for FreeBSD :)

Well LinuxBIOS has been getting boot up times in the 3 second range for a while. Nothing new move on. http://www.linuxbios.org/index.php/Main_Page

• Internal UPS
• LinuxBIOS

Serial console is a good approach, but may not be used here. They may be using a Linux based BIOS, which works rather well if you pay the upfront cost of mastering it and buying an appropriate chip programmer to reprogram the BIOS's you mess up in the testing process. One variant is at http://www.linuxbios.org/ and the idea is really quite good: use a micro-Linux to actually replace the BIOS and provide BIOS read/write access to the operating system itself.

It's hard work, because a lot of the current BIOS madness is workarounds of various bugs and limitations of specific hardware, so it requires a lot of testing to be able to use. But it's a very exciting approach for institutional or cluster computing where you have thousands of identical machines.

Or, with something like a Remote Supervisor Adapter, you can control a server (or POS terminal) remotely, even when it is powered off. Now, this is designed for servers, and is probably *not* what they have in a cash register, but it would fit the bill, as well.

It would be absolutely wonderful if we could get them to simply use LinuxBIOS, but I'm afraid that compatibility with whatever cockamamie Windows management tools exist will preclude that on desktops for a while, But check out http://www.linuxbios.org/index.php/Main_Page for details. This stuff is very, very interesting for replacing the closed source, API violating, debris cluttered, bug-ridden, and debris cluttered cruft most BIOS's use.

Nonsense. While commercial BIOS's are limited, fragile, and proprietary, we're stuck with limited tools like LILO nad Grub. However, projects like the LinuxBIOS project at http://www.linuxbios.org/ are taking a good shot at replacing the fragility and secrecy of most BIOS's with robust and documented tools that can actually be read and reset by the kernel, to allow you to do things like load a new BIOS or reset the serial console or hardware boot orders from your active operating system.

It's quite exciting, even if the authors seem to think that "check it out of CVS and read the code" is how you do software versions.

Perhaps a heavily secured, stripped-down copy of some stable version of *nix could provide a high-integrity read-only core underlying a more sophisticated, extensible, and flexible full-featured OS.

Linux BIOS. All the power of Linux, now booting your computer!

then microsoft could write a winLoader to load windows if you wanted to dual boot your linux machine :-)

seriosly for anyone who uses linux clusters or is otherwise uninterested in Dual boot, it makes sense to flash you roms and get it over with.

Open Firmware is a specification, not an implementation. In case you want an open-source implementation of Open Firmware, check out OpenBIOS. OpenBIOS can also be used as a payload for LinuxBIOS.

Modern PC BIOSes are in no way free in any sense of the word. Just try to get the source code to PhoenixBIOS.

If you want free, then check out LinuxBIOS.

Quick question, what about OpenBIOS and LinuxBIOS? If my memory serves me well, some motherboard manufacturers sell products with LinuxBIOS (ECS?). Will these two projects be able to survive and provide an viable alternative to this probable DRMed future?
http://www.openbios.info/project/
http://www.linuxbios.org/index.php/Main_Page/

You can get instant-on systems based around linux... though "instant" actually means a few seconds in tedious reality, they can boot as fast as you can get through the bios check. It's linux bios, and if you're willing to get compatible hardware, it can be quite cool.

And yes, there are consumer applications in the wild.

For a really fast boot time, why not store the boot file in flash RAM?

Because flash RAM is slow. Unless I've lost touch with the latest tech, the average HDD provides about 4x the throughput of current flash memory. Next-gen flash is better, but still on the same order of magnitude. A battery-backed (volatile) RAM boot disk could be nifty...

The LinuxBIOS project lets you boot up fast out of flash, but that's mainly because you get the skip all the useless crap that the PC BIOS wastes time on.

of cource there's always http://www.linuxbios.org/index.php/Main_Page

Admittedly, that would be really cool (kinda like LinuxBIOS but with just a web browser?), but I don't think the Phoenix BIOS was a web browser, by pretty much any definition of the term. Is that what the author really meant?

This Page Intentionally Left Blank

Nice link, sparky!

Looks like the main page is now on a wiki:

http://wiki.linuxbios.org/index.php/Main_Page

;)

http://www.linuxbios.org/ You're point is well taken, however... there's no reason why they shouldn't cover their butts on this. happy hacking!

"The current favorite platforms are VIA EPIA, EPIA-M..."

http://www.linuxbios.org/news/

Any more questions?

Our company had a few of it's laptops stolen recently and I took the liberty of investigatin in some of these Laptop Tracker tools.
What they do is randomly check for Internet connection and sends out a packet to help track it down. If it is not connected it will try to dial a predetermined number to help locate it. The company who keeps track of all this information will then work with the authorities to track it down. It is not really dependant on the OS and can survive reformats.
The only problem is that all is lost if the theifs wipe out the partitions (which happens if you do a full install of say..Windows 2000 or XP.)

Since then I've been looking at creating my own that is independant of the OS and does not reside on any partition.

Using LinuxBIOS as a replacement for the original BIOS this minature Linux has the potential to do whatever I need.
Set it up so it freezes on the lack of a dongle plugged in or have the ability to initialize the ethernet device and try to reach the outside world.

I doubt the the project managers of LinuxBIOS had any of this in mind and it needs to mature a little bit more before this could really work but once abled, but this project could really help out laptop owners.

what about LinuxBIOS

OpenFirmware is a hell of a lot more featureladen than the PC's BIOS. While attempts to update BIOS are ongoing (see LinuxBIOS), a more effective shortterm solution is to emulate part of the functionality: boot off a livecd/floppy and network/fileshare over tcpip (nic or firewire). I'd advise u to look towards the always excellent Bart Lagerweij site

Because the motherboard manufacturer's only control the motherboard, and in some cases either the video card or the CPU, not the memory, hard drive, sound card, TV tuner card, Firewire card, network card or pretty much anything else that Apple keeps tightly under their control.

More and more motherboards have this stuff on board, particularly Firewire and USB controllers. With a smarter BIOS (maybe even LinuxBIOS), those manufacturers could provide a service similar to Apple's Target Disk Mode.

FWIW, Apple doesn't have tight control over drives and memory; these are commonly swapped out with commodity parts with higher capacity by end users.

And, as someone else mentioned here, there's at least one PC laptop manufacturer that has this feature.

Don't Run Their BIOS. :)

LinuxBIOS does this. It only works on some machines. You'll note for the IBM T23, they say, "This is doable. But IBM doesn't want anyone to do it."

Even if someone made a custom BIOS to get around the restrictions, the manufacturer would simply make future machines refuse to boot unless they contained a cryptographically signed BIOS. That in fact is the plan for Trusted Computing.

LinuxBIOS does this. It only works on some machines. You'll note for the IBM T23, they say, "This is doable. But IBM doesn't want anyone to do it."

Even if someone made a custom BIOS to get around the restrictions, the manufacturer would simply make future machines refuse to boot unless they contained a cryptographically signed BIOS. That in fact is the plan for Trusted Computing.

Linux BIOS

It has a ways to go before it is "plug and play" unfortunately. It would be good if some Linux hardware vendors would pick this up and get this out into the real world. I would much rather buy hardware with Linux installed in the BIOS.

How does Firefox assign and keep track of memory? Last I checked, it used system calls, which are part of the OS.

How does Windows or Linux put your computer to sleep? Last I checked, it used ACPI calls, which are part of the BIOS. In the case of browser-as-platform, the host OS (Linux, Mac OS X, Windows, etc.) assumes the role of a BIOS. Replacing the BIOS with something a bit more powerful could eliminate that middleman altogether.

The above link should be www.linuxbios.org

LinuxBIOS

If you want a more sensible Linux-specific
BIOS there's the LinuxBIOS.
It looks like its only for clusters but I'd
like to get it from my next Linux box.

A BIOS just for Linux? Hey, it could happen.

LinuxBIOS can boot from power-up to login prompt in three seconds (half way down the page for 2/15/01). Since Linux is capable of multitasking, they could then run their software while they wait for the CF to mount (probably much quicker than IDE).

Finally, you state that you do not wish to limit the ability of consumers to record over-the-air radio broadcasts. Instead, you apparently want to force them to buy what they have received for free since Fleming and Marconi first made it possible for consumers to hear news and music over the public airwaves.

As you know, we have long been concerned about content owners seeking to change the "play" button on our devices to a "pay" button. At least you have addressed the semantics by suggesting new devices come equipped with a "buy" button.*

*Excerpt of letter to Cary H. Sherman, President, RIAA, from Gary Shapiro, President & CEO, Consumer Electronics Association, 4/15/04, responding to a fax, by Cary H. Sherman to Gary Shapiro, at 14:30, 4/14/04, with this attempt at greasing the wheels:

We also point out that a lack of content protection will forever preclude a myriad of new business models that could [insert hush money offer here] benefit your members [end insert of hush money offer here] as well as other interested parties. For example, device manufacturers could provide "buy buttons" that would offer consumers the ability to quickly and easily purchase music that they hear on the radio. Indeed, iBiquity has said that it would like to offer to consumers, for a fee [as opposed to free], on demand weather and traffic reports. The same opportunity could and should exist for music, the bread and butter of radio broadcasts.

Sources

), they'll need control over the BIOS. That's why Microsoft is pushing so hard in this area, and why the Linux community must push back just as hard, and get the Linux BIOS.

5 second boot times were promised with a Linux BIOS. I'm still waiting. For the BIOS, and for my computer to boot up.

Another recen

I highly recommend checking out the project history and overview of architectural and design decisions they've made. Fascinating stuff. (Check the "papers" link on the left side, IIRC.)

Here's a snippet from the project homepage to whet your appetites:

Other beneficial consequences of using LinuxBIOS include needing only two working motors to boot (cpu fan and power supply), fast boot times (current fastest is 3 seconds), and freedom from proprietary (buggy) BIOS code, to name a few. These secondary benefits are numerous and have helped gain support from many vendors in both the high performance computing as well as embedded computing markets.

It's actually linuxbios.org

If the GNU GPL folks want an open source BIOS, they should write/build one themselves

Then how can developers in, say, the LinuxBIOS project learn how to interact with the chipset's I/O ports without documentation from the motherboard manufacturer?

but the project seems to have stalled. They've got a website at www.linuxbios.org, but their supported motherboards list is small and hasn't grown much for a while. Stallman's imput may get things moving again in this area. I, for one, am tired of having motherboards with terminal bugs in the Bios which the motherboard manufactuors can't be bothered fixing. 3rd party hacked Bioses like Jan's efforts only go so far.

RMS's thinkpad t22 with linuxbios installed.
-greg

...but can you imagine [...] a Windows-based BIOS of some type where the OS actually IS the BIOS?

the LinuxBios project? I would think little, if at all, since the core goals of the LinuxBios project are so specific (providing instant control of a cluster node), but maybe I am wrong? Perhaps some innovations can flow both ways.

Either way, kudos to Intel.

However, if you're looking for something custom, there's just no better way than building it yourself. I recommend picking up a nice VIA EPIA 800 from CWLinux preloaded with their LinuxBIOS and toss in one or two WiFi cards (one A, one G).

Some examples of the kind of flexibility this gives you is offering IPv6 support, packet tunneling to hide your upstream, or setting up a custom website which all new users of the hotspot will be given when they try to access any website until they've activated their service (EULA, payment, whatever).

The minimum the hardware for this is going to run around $350. With only a few extra features, it can easily run over $500. That $40 802.11a AP from Pricewatch sure looks like a good deal now, doesn't it?

Check out LinuxBIOS. While it could probably be blocked by manufacturers, it's interesting enough. And there will allways be some small manufacturers that will sell you DRM-free hardware, probably the same ones that are selling 'pirated' brand rippoff, but still working, hardware today. Think Chinese factories. They don't have anything to gain from making you abide by some fucked up copyright law, and they're allready showing their disregard of it now. Actually, this kind of DRM would be illegal in a lot of countries that still have fair use in place. So, I'm not too worried. Sure, the average user will probably be locked up by their own hardware, but eventually, we'll have something like open hardware in place, for those that want it.

Whatever happened to Linux on the 3COM Audrey? Now that LinuxBIOS supports the Audrey's GEODE, what is holding back that platform?

If there are any non-DRM BIOSes out there it's just because they haven't been updated yet. Don't buy them now, or you'll have no choice but to buy them for your next computer. AMI is gone, Phoenix is gone and Award no longer exists except as a sub-brand of Phoenix. Yes, this is a scary phenomenon. Vote with dollars. Apple's OpenFirmware doesn't contain any DRM (who knows for how long), Sun also uses OpenFirmware I believe?


Interestingly enough, there's a front page article on the LinuxBios project. According to the linked article:

LinuxBIOS works on 64-bit and 32-bit CPUs. CPUs supported include the Alpha, K8, K7, PowerPC, P4, PIII, PII, Cyrix (VIA), Geode (now AMD) and SC520 (AMD). Chipsets are too numerous to list. Form factors of mainboards range from the smallest PC/104 systems to the largest K8 systems. An IBM PPC 970 port is in progress.

As for Apple, trading software lock-in for hardware lock-in is hardly a solution.

Yes. It's been known to load Windows 2000 in addition to Linux and a couple other *nixes (FreeBSD, Plan9). I'm not certain if WinXp will boot, though.

In my admittedly cursory review of the main LinuxBIOS site (here) and of the article I was unable to find anything about using it to boot other operating systems besides Linux. Can I buy a compatible mobo, put the LinuxBIOS on it, and then run Windows? I'm still running dual-boot for now and would need this.

It's a BIOS to load an operating system. They've booted Linux, FreeBSD, Plan9, and even Windows 2000.

The trick is finding a bootloader that doesn't depend on legacy BIOS services.

Ok, first why should I switch from the current BIOS I have to this one, make the case.

You shouldn't. Ok, that's unnecessarily harsh, but as it stands right now LinuxBIOS is primarily for people who are between very and highly technically inclined... Kind of like linux was shortly after it's release. That's why their website "SUCKS," because this isn't yet ready for the KDE crowd. You'd have to be comfortable finding the status of your motherboard, downloading and compiling the appropriate files, reflashing your onboard FlashROM, and other nasty, dirty things. I wouldn't consider myself qualified to get their best documented system up and running unless I was between jobs, and even then I consider it iffy.

Linux BIOS as it stands is useful for a few specific things: Building clusters and building robots. Any embedded system running on linux on a traditional motherboard can be sped up significantly by using Linux BIOS. But it does require quite a bit of work and knowledge to get it running... If you want a computer pre-flashed with LinuxBIOS, you can purchase one off the shelf, but I would be hesitant to try and build one without a lot of time and / or skill.

It isn't that the LinuxBIOS people don't want that kind of end-user friendliness, it's just that the project is still in the mode of getting things working at all, let alone in an easy fashion.

Secondly, as you might have figured out, it is not a drop-in BIOS replacement. Your computer enters the boot phase and exists the other side with Linux running. You'll not get Windows to run directly on that, and I'd be surprised if it ran virtually (as the BIOS windows is expecting doesn't exist). If anyone here has experience running Windows on a LinuxBIOS, please let us know.

None of this is to say that the goals of the project are bad. Imagine being able to boot to command line in 3 seconds! You could start an ssh session before your monitor was done de-gaussing. Attach a 4 line LED display to one of these motherboards, and you would have a great tool for debugging network problems. Or just speed things up significantly, and spend more time doing what you are supposed to be doing, with the added bonus of being able to shut down your computer when you are done (gasp!). It just needs a lot more work, and a lot of developer support. I'm glad to see it posted to Slashdot, as the exposure might net a few more eager helpers.