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Gartner Says Linux PCs Just Used To Pirate Windows
LostCluster writes "CNET is reporting results from a Gartner Group report that claims 40% of desktop machines sold with Linux on them are being used to run pirate copies of Windows! The report goes on to say that this stat reaches as high in 80% in 'emerging markets', the same places that the stripped down lite version of Windows is being aimed at. Gartner's making a bold prediction that the number of machines sold as Linux desktops may eclipse the number of machines actually running Linux."
The consulting firm issued a report on Wednesday stating that about 40 percent of Linux PCs will be modified to run an illegal copy of Windows, a bait-and-switch maneuver that lowers the cost of obtaining a Windows PC.
I wasn't aware that PCs were made by Microsoft. I realize that B. Crew wants every PC to be sold with Windows and makes in very difficult for vendors to do anything but sell them that way, but I am pretty certain it isn't a requirement for Windows to be on every single PC out there.
As a result, the number of desktop Linux PCs that ship will exceed the actual percentage of Linux machines that get installed in the real world. Desktop Linux will account for about 5 percent of desktops shipped in 2004, according to Gartner, with 10.5 percent of the desktops in Asia shipping with Linux this year. However, the installed base of Linux will come to only 1.3 percent.
In 2008, Linux will account for 7.5 percent of PCs shipped, but only 2.6 percent of the installed base, about the same that Apple's installed base will be then.
Star News reports that by 2009 15.29% of the The National Enquirer's stories will be completely false and that their own stories will overtake FoxNews as the most truthful news source on the planet.
My last machine came with XP installed. I didn't even get to have a CD of XP other than the restore CD. The key on the back of the computer was invalid anyway and MSFT had no suggestions for me other than using a valid key... So, we have to buy a computer with Windows on it because MSFT won't be friendly with vendors that don't offer 100% Windows only. We get that computer with Windows but we really can't use the copy on any other machine and we don't get the install CD and it may not even have a working key. Yet we are supposed to believe that this is acceptable and poor MSFT will lose money to piracy.
I paid for my copy of Windows XP and I expect to get my use out of it whether it follows MSFT's rules or not. I would assume the same rings true elsewhere. Who the hell wants to pay 20%+ of their PC cost for Windows if they can't even use it?
Welcome to hell.
So what's new? Microsoft pays its lapdog, Gartner Group, for another anti-Linux FUD piece. Next story, please.
Look at the OS on most of these PC's
Now go away, Gartner, before I taunt you a second time.
FP?
This sig no verb.
Bollocks. All my work machines come with XP on them. The first thing I have to do is purge the damn thing and install Linux.
Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird -- Proverbs 1:17
That'll just about offset the number of machines that were bought with windows on them that are now running linux. Or do they not care about those?
"Piter, too, is dead."
It is said that a child learns wisdom from the parent,
but the truly wise parent learns joy from the child
... by the same token, how many machines sold with Windows end up having Linux installed?
Both of mine, for a start.
Therefore, there's no way to tell whether the number of Linux pre-installs that are replaced with pirate Windows are balanced with the number of Windows pre-installs replaced with Linux. Gartner's prediction is that more people replace Linux with Windows than vice-versa, but how do you get to that information without guessing?
I appear to have a blog. Odd.
So how much piracy will the new Starter Edition be 'a vehicle' for, seeing as it's functionally even less capable than Linux?
Would you like a CueCat to go with your Linux box, sir?
"...all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness..." yada yada
Well, thats less than half isn't it? Thats pretty good in my view.
So who exactly paid for the study?
music lover since 1969
Don't tell anyone, but I'm using my Windows PC to run a pirate copy of Linux! I downloaded a copy from the internet and didn't pay a cent for it! Suckers...
Read reviews of shopping cart software
GNU/Linux is still empowering these people to do something they couldn't do otherwise - use their computer without paying for an operating system. That's great!
Personally, I want source code and other niceties, so I'm sticking with Debian for now. But to each her own.
That would be like buying a Maserati and replacing its engine with that of a Ford Escort.
"We're sorry, but the website you're trying to reach has been disconnected."
Big deal - that's been known since 2000.
I have heard it first hand from resellers and h/w makers in Asia Pacific - "we bundle Linux just so that MS leaves us alone and it's up to the end users to get their copy of Windows".
In some places shipping systems (assembled computers) without OS is either disallowed or frowned upon by MS and/or anti-piracy watchdogs, so bundling Linux is a nice excuse to avoid pre-installing Windows....
In other news, the Gartner Group is reporting an increase in hallucinogenic substance use among its employees.
Sure, if you want to install a pirate copy of Windows on a new PC, your only real choice is to order a PC with either no OS or one with a free OS (i.e. Linux). Since none of the big PC makers will even let you order a PC without an OS, guess which one you'll choose.
This doesn't have anything to do with Linux.
"The market alone cannot provide sufficient constraints on corporation's penchant to cause harm." -- Joel Bakan
"...Gartner's making a bold prediction that the number of machines sold as
Linux desktops may eclipse the number of machines actually running Linux."
Funny that. Its a bit like Windows if you take into account crashes - The
number of machines sold as Windows desktops is far greater than the number
of machines actually RUNNING Windows.
Windows in 6 Bytes (IA-32) : 90 90 90 90 CD 19
What about people who actually lego their boxes ? with an empty hard drive ? are they pirates to ? or linux users ?
what about dual booters ? what about CD distros ?
generalization is always wrong.
--- Back to the trees, back to the trees !
Have they ever counted the numbers of machines sold with windows on them, just to be scratched right away and reinstalled with Linux? Happens all the time around here...
--The knowledge that you are an idiot, is what distinguishes you from one.
I somewhat regularly upgrade computers or rebuild systems for family and friends. When that happens, I end up with a lot of unused copies of Windows. These are bought and payed for - 100% legitimate. So when my friends want a new Windows computer, I'm not going to re-buy a copy of windows when they already own the rights to a copy!
But I bet they would count this as a hit for their study.
Slashdot Syndrome: the sudden, extreme urge to correct someone in order to validate one's self.
If we were to use the logic that the RIAA and MPAA use, then we should ban all Linux Distributions because they are used to pirate software. Then Microsoft will truly rule the world!
100% of PC's sold with Windows ME, run Pirated copie s of Windows 2000
Its actually quite true. Here in germany many retailers have "ultra-cheap" PCs, in the 200-300 range, without operating system(well, not without, but with dr-dos or linux,ect). Windows XP is a 50 or 100 addon.
How many people are willing to buy that addon instead of visiting suprnova.org?
HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
If this were true, it would only be because you can buy Linux-installed PC's cheaper than Windows-installed PC's. So there should then be a much bigger market for easy-to-buy OS-less PC's. Right? an OS-less PC should cost even less (if only by a little) than Linux PC. That OS-less market doesn't exist; ergo Gartner is wrong.
(I know you can buy OS-less PC's, but we tend to make it a little bit hard. You know, you have to buy them in part from newegg or whatever. There is not a huge market for buying them all pre-packaged).
It's nice that Gartner poked its little head out again, but what my question to them would be.. where'd you get your data from? (and no, i wont pay 300 bucks for your stupid report).. my bet is that MSFT gave them some figures on winders update and then compared them to sales figures... so those that didnt match up MUST be PC's sold w/ linux on them (not even considering whiteboxes, home built, etc)
Gartner used to be a respectible organization - but now they seem to be towing the "Windows Uber Alles" line, similar to CapGemini. I wonder how much Microsoft paid to get this report....
Insanity is a gradual process; don't rush it.
Guys, they're talking about people buying machines from OEMs (like Dell) for less money that are sold "with Linux" and then installing Windows on them to get around paying the Windows Tax on all the new machines. It's not about Linux users wanting to pirate Windows.
They've created this "so that just because you're in an area where people can't afford windows doesn't mean you don't have to pay microsoft a tithing!" broken windows distribution.
Now they're trying to create pressure on OEMs to sell this instead of competing products by implying that competing products are inherently invalid.
This is probably just the first of a number of similar attacks...
http://www.pubpat.org/Microsoft_517_Rejected.htm
A consulting firm's report can be taken to mean anything. Those numbers don't mean anything until the details of how the report was done is revealed. But the firm is unliley to do that.
Statistics can be used to justify anything.
The problem with Starter Editions is that they still cost $MEGA-BUCKS more than a pirated copy. So, if the prime motivation is cost, the intro of Starter Edn is unliley to change much.
Gartner finds Linux is not only a dangerous tool actively being used by terrorists to avoid detection, but a psychotrophic drug that causes terrorism, delinquency, malaria and AIDS.
Linux is also subverting good, honest children to criminal behaviour, communism and encouraging them to move to harder drugs such as Heavy Metal music. Not to mention occultism and role playing games.
Linux on an IBM mainframe is also less cost effective than Windows on a dual Xeon! Quick, in the Holy name of Redmond, call a priest and bring out the holy water!
I'm sorry if I haven't offended anyone
I know there are a lot of Linux zealots on Slashdot, but does this really suprise anyone? Certainly not me. There are a couple of things to consider here.
1. The only replacement for Windows on the desktop is Mac OS X. Linux is not that replacement.
2. A lot of people are unwilling to pay for what they want, or have a feeling of entitlement that they don't actually have.
You end up with the people who are willing to switch, and willing to pay, switching to Mac OS X. These are real people using their own computers, not terminals at a travel agency that end up accounting for the vast majority of Windows licenses (commercial terminals.) People who are unwilling to pay for a Win XP software license will buy a cheap PC and not a Mac anyway. Since they don't care about licenseing either, you end up with pirated copies of Windows software run on Linux-shipped PC's.
It makes logical sense to me. It may be a sad state of affairs from a plethora of angles, but it's certainly not a surprise!
"Politicians find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the people."
I'm confused. Why buy a linux pc just to remove linux and install a pirated Windows? Why not just get a pc without OS. That way the vendor can't charge any money for time spent installing linux either.
80% of machines sold with Microsoft Windows get used to pirate Linux. (At least my machine did.)
Sure you could go to the local computer shop with your business needs and put your contract for say 200 machines with that shop who will then bend over backwards to help as your contract is the difference between success and bankruptcy but the suits want dell. Go figure.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
The zealot faithful are already foaming at the mouth at this report. But what's so surprising about it? All it really says is that of the PCs purchased with Linux pre-installed on them, 40% of them will be modified to run some variant of Windows (possibly in a dual boot configuration) without being within the terms of the EULA. This probably includes transferring OEM licenses to other computers (which, if memory serves, is against the terms of the EULA).
I can't find the report on Gartner's site and therefore can't say anything about its methodology. (And if the report isn't free, I ain't shelling out the bucks for it.) But it strikes me as telling that of the people rending their clothes and screaming here, very few of them are actually arguing with their numbers beyond saying that it's "justified," or "MSFT gets what's coming to them," or "this is offset by," etc.
Oh, and by the way: the headline is stupid and wrong.
I'm burning Win XP right now under my Linux machine! You can't trust the burner shipped with XP to burn itself!
My penguin ate my sig
...are used to run pirate copies of Windows 2003 which is MS's first decent desktop OS (even though they say it's for servers)?
I'm a bit sceptical about that 40% figure - I'd say it was closer to 2 in 5.
A comparable lack of drivers, training costs and migration headaches will also retard desktop Linux growth.
So what they're saying is, in 4 years:
-
No hardware manufacturers will make linux drivers
-
It won't be as hard to learn Linux as Windows
-
New sysadmins who know Linux won't be able to migrate
I just think it's a bit pointless to say that Linux will have the same problems in 4 years as it does today.In emerging markets, where desktop Linux enjoys wider popularity, the trend is even starker. Around 80 percent of the time, Linux will be removed for a pirated copy of Windows
Making wild accusations without backing it up with a solid proof because of remote possibilities... When did slashdotters start working for Gartner?
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
Gartner's making a bold prediction that the number of machines sold as Linux desktops ...
Do these idiots know how hard it is to buy a computer with Linux preinstalled?
I agree with a reply to the article on CNet, which basically said that the piracy of Windows is Microsoft's problem, not Linux's problem. It's not Linux's problem that it's free, it's not Linux's problem that Windows is being pirated world-wide, and it's not Linux's problem that people are choosing Linux PCs instead of Win machines. This just amounts to FUD, trying to make Linux look like it has some involvement with piracy. It's the people who pirate, not the software.
You won't hate yourself in the morning if you don't get up before noon.
"Gartner's making a bold prediction that the number of machines sold as Linux desktops may eclipse the number of machines actually running Linux."
While I'm would expect that somewhere there are plenty PC's being sold with Linux pre-installed that get wiped and have a pirated copy of Windows installed, my personal experience is the opposite -- I have run hundreds of Linux machines (server farms, at home,at work, etc.), and aside from rack-mounted servers the only practical option is to purchase a PC with Windows, then wipe it and install Linux. In theory you can buy a PC in the US with Linux installed, but in practice, nobody stocks them, and it's easier to get a Windows PC now than to special order a Linux PC to arrive eventually, and do the install yourself.
So, while some percentage of the small number of PC's sold with Linux on them may be converted to run Windows, certainly a percentage of the very large number of PC's sold with Windows on them are converted to run Linux, and in my experience the numbers lean strongly towards the latter case.
On top of this, I would argue that the number of copies of Windows sold (irrespective of Linux) is artificially inflated by the pre-installed copies in other ways:
With consumer PC's you almost always need to buy a "real" copy of Windows, because the pre-installed copies don't come with install CD's, or even the right to make your install CD's. So if you buy a cheap PC and _anything_ happens to it that would cause you to need to reinstall (like, say, owning the PC for six months), the only (legal) option is to run a "restore" that wipes your hard drive and restores it to factory state.
On corporate desktops, if you by PC's with Windows installed, and then wipe the drive and install a standard disk image (which most companies do, to simplify management) MS insists that you need to buy a new Windows license, because the copy in the disk image is a new copy.
If you donate a used Windows PC to a school or church, MS tells them that it's illegal to use the copy of Windows on the PC unless it's accompanies by the original certificate of authenticity, and that otherwise they must by a new copy of Windows (which would often cost more than the PC itself is worth, and wouldn't run on older PC's in any case), and that without that, they must trash the PC's.
So if Gartner is trying to correct for artificial distortions on the sales numbers to determine true numbers of users, I think that they have some more work to do.
Enable 3D printed prosthetics!
Oh no, I have been using YDL for a while, I dunno that i have a pirated windows there!
I run Slackware as my primary operating system and have a barely used (pirated) copy of WinXP sitting on a 20GB hdd that I rarely use (for games when I do).
So... I can see how many Linux desktops sold would be used to run pirated copies of WinXP, but not as the primary operating system. If you're going to do that, why not just buy a PC with no OS installed?
In other news 7% of all Windows PCs have their operating system replaced with Linux... Yep 73% of all statistics are made up on the fly. Now seriously... I have never bought a Linux PC, but I do have 5 Windows PCs whose operating system was replaced with Linux upon first boot. All using the same media, that same media was used to install it on at least 3 other friend's computers as well. Lets see... that's 5 Windows PCs , one download of a distro's iso, and 8 more Linux PCs in the end. Although this may not be true for *everyone*, it does happen often. This would go to show that if you measured the Linux install base by downloads, it'd be 1/8 of what it really is, where as in my case its actually 1.375 times larger then the reported Windows install base, which is in reality a non-existant base. This would be reported as 5 Windows PCs and 1 Linux download, obviously its not accurate. I know that many places, especially universities, download once and install about 200 times. Gartner, go away.
Regards,
Steve
Going by the argument that Microsoft uses to justify the requirement that all PC's to be sold with Windows XX pre-installed, the movie industry could argue that all DVD players/video recorders be sold with a pre-supplied library of movie classics, as owners are more than likely than not to pirate them.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
Making wild accusations without backing it up with a solid proof because of remote possibilities
Standard operating procedure for Gartner. The supporting data is an asset, they're not going to give it away.
So, would this mean that Microsoft is left with the dilemna:
a) try to stamp out this piracy by discouraging "after-market" installs (hey! don't install windows! You had better leave that Linux on there, buster!)
b) tacitly allow the after-market piracy, thus maintaining their marketshare but sacrificing revenue
It would seem that the obvious choice for them would be b), because so much of the MS revenue stream depends on a Windows OS on the machine.
To some degree, I have set up a false dichotomy, but I do know that these cheap Linux machines will only grow in number here in Asia. MS is stuck in a very tricky position, and will be forced to retreat from the OS to their apps and "higher functionality" for value-add. Good luck with that in China...
davejenkins.com |
So what they're saying is that users are actually stupid enough to spend money on getting Lindows (or whatever these bundles come with nowadays) on their computer, just to remove it? Wouldn't it be a bit more economical to get the PC blank?
Well for me it was the other way around. I had to pay for a WinXP OEM license with my laptop, but my laptop has never booted Windows. The first time I booted it was under Mandrake 10.0, and that's all it has installed.
And I can't sell that XP to anyone else, because it's an OEM version and won't work on another system, AFAIK.
Fair? You decide....
I've known this for a long time.
Even here in the US, what do you think happens with the Wal-Mart linux machines that they sell dirt-cheap. They get turned into 'grandma's-email/XP machine' by some kid that installed a pirate copy of XP.
I dont see this message from Gartner as Anti-Linux. So many of you people have blinders on so that whenever you see MS and Linux in the same sentence you think "OMG Micro$oft Sux0r5!1!"
This is the same as buying one of those MP3 players with a huge CF card, and taking the CF card out to use in your camera.
People just buy cheap crappy PC's that come preloaded with Linux, they wipe the drive, and install XP.
Its purely economical from their point of view. Cheap PC + Pirated software = WIN.
Adrian Says His Windows PCs Just Used to Pirate Linux
Wait a minute.....we have to pirate Linux??
http://www.ieaa.org/~adrian/
What is interesting is that the percentage of Linux PCs sold in 'emerging markets' that will get a pirated copy of XP on them is exactly the same as the percentage of statistic that is just made up in the emerging market of IT industry analysis. Coincidence? It's too early to tell.
Gartner is currently making up a study of the correlation of percentages in different emerging markets, and the numbers so far point in the direction of 80% correlation between 80% of different stuff.
In other words: Unless they release the sources (hah!) for their analysis, we have no reason to believe them.
The report makes bold claims so as to stand out from common_wisdom. This gives it an edge in its consulting business.
If the claims turn out wrong, they'll say that the companies/countries involved have made very good progress to stamp out piracy. They then go make a report of "How to combat piracy and reduce piracy figures by [claimed figure - actual figure]" and then teach these techniques to others.
If the claims are right, it's going to be "Told you so."
Well, it's a win-win situation.
I bought my pc with windows. But since then the Windows XP Home Edition CD has not left its sealed case.
Needless to say that in stead of accepting the M$ EULA I booted from a Gentoo CD an reformatted the harddrive.
Kind regards,
Trip
The site where: "I'm right, as long as you ignore the things that prove me wrong", became a valid method of debate.
And what about all those Windows machines throughout all past years (when there was no such a thing as a Linux-box out-of-the-shelf) that were 'converted' to GNU/Linux?
I am, myself, responsible for at least 16 of these machines between 1996 and yesterday.
I wonder how many desks out there are being used to hold up computers that have pirated versions of windows on them. how dare they. We better require that Windows XP gets bundled with desks!
One Nation:
Under God
Under Allah
Under Zeus
Under Satan
OR
One Nation Indivisible
machine as using a pirate copy? I suspect a LOT of those people simply took the copy from their old machine and are using it in the new one.
If they de-install from the old one or trash it and install it on the new one, does MS/Gartner consider that piracy? How exactly would they know whether the old one has been de-installed so their numbers are right in this report.
They're just trying to hide the fact that they are shit scared that machines sold with Linux preinstalled WON'T end up with a pirate copy of Windows. The only thing worse than MS not getting paid for a copy of Windows is for a user to stick with the copy of Linux that comes with their machine. That is a sale MS will never get back.
"I have the attention span of a strobe lit goldfish, please get to the point quickly!"
Probably -1 Redundant by now, but I can't be bothered to check. I just need to make sure that also in this story it is said that while Gartner's data may be true, it is conversely also true that for each Linux distro sold x copies of it are made and installed.
Thank you for listening
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
How long before this study is used by state or federal government(s) to justify laws prohibiting the sale of computers without licensed operating systems. To be qualified as licensed, the OS would have to register as an "official" OS (and probably pay some exhorbitant fee) and anyone caught selling systems without an approved OS would be subject to fines/criminal prosecution.
60% of carbon units pirate Windows software, The other 40% use linux. This is meant to be funny...but I now know it's just boring.
The Register had a good story about this yesterday, basically stating that they weren't even aware of the story until Gartner sent them out a rather insistent correction to a press release they hadn't actually received. As they say:
What the correction actually said, seemed to be a rather more reserved opinion:
El Reg themselves then add:
torn between To conclusions and In the lake
Help fight continental drift.
...people running these pirated versions of windows on machines sold with linux *generally* have an available windows license to use, but dont realize they can do so.
I mean, if someone buys a new computer with linux on it to replace their windows box, then they've got a license available, whether or not they have the original cd and key.
most of the time people just need to buy an upgrade, if that.
01100111 01100101 01110100 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110100 00100000 01101101 01101111 01110010 01100101 00101110
As a result, the number of desktop Linux PCs that ship will exceed the actual percentage of Linux machines that get installed in the real world.
What about the number of PCs that were sold with Windows on them that are now running Linux? I'm not saying it's a large number, but I have one.
- Kevin
The less confident you are, the more serious you have to act.
This is living proof and retribution for Microsoft's monopoly on the world software market. As many people have said, why not buy a PC with *NO* operating system installed if you're just going to Pirate Windows anyways?
The reason is, Windows on these PC's is not the Primary Operating system - it is simply the operating system *required* for certain software packages, most notably games.
If Microsoft has such a problem with Linux users pirating windows, they can give up the monopoly on games and we'll just stop using them entirely.
The truth is, a windows operating system installed for free is better than none at all and Microsoft knows it. The more people running their stupid O.S., even if some are pirates, the more associated software they sell, the more they keep their stronghold on bastardized HTTP, Games Software, Office Software, etc.
Pirates give Microsoft the power to invent their own standards, in their own favour. Take away the pirates, and you take away Microsoft's market share, advertising ability, their power.
Windows is the platform for a much larger agenda, and the pirates aren't thanked - because Microsoft knows they can punish them *and* make money from them.
If Microsoft thought it was actually possible to wipe out piracy of their OS, they wouldn't do it.
http://prettybored.com
Long Articles by Wes Clark
Ace
This helps make up for the three machines I bought that came with some version of Windows that I deleted before installing Linux.
(And no, I didn't have the option of not getting Windows pre-installed, they were machines bought through my school, which has a "deal" with Microsoft.)
Here's a wild idea:
Why not have Microsoft suppliment the costs of the hardware on pcs, and then these machines will run a $500 copy of windows.
This is only slightly different from the business approach of what Microsoft does with the xbox (whereas there they take a loss on each xbox hardware sold, but make up for it in royalties on the games sold.)
This way, the consumer gets a bonus, each time they want a new version of windows, they get new hardware as well.
47% of statistics are made up on the fly. I would have to agree with some others that and OEM copy of windows adds like $30 to the cost of a computer, if you can even get it without Windows.
At my comapny we have 2 mail servers that came with Windows 2000 Server and they ran bad, the same mail server vendor make a Linux Appliance. Pop in the CD, it formats the drive and installed a stripped down RedHat install. It runs 4 times faster. We simply ate it on the Windows licenses. More free money to Microsoft.
Since all software is essentially free in China, Linux will have serious trouble in gaining market share in China and other emerging markets. Microsoft Windows is "free", and Linux is free.
That 80% of Linux desktops sold in China is running Windows merely confirms the above analysis.
The problem will not be resolved any time soon. The Chinese have almost no respect for human rights (e.g. brutal occupation of Tibet) or property rights (e.g. theft of software, blueprints for microprocessors, "Star Wars" before its American debut, ...).
with the people who did this "research" I believe I'd have to say, "Bull$*#@!, you drink!"
796F75617265616E65726400
Companies that sell reports (Gartner) stand to make more money when they write whatever the people paying the $700 for the reports want to read.
Is this PHBs just wanting to stick their fingers in their ears, point at this report, and say, La la la, no, you can't run Linux, it's bad.?
Get your own free personal location tracker
Isnt this liable? Cant someone sue them for this?
Hence why MS wanted a licensing fee from manufacturers per box - regardless of OS installed.
Like it or not, ths report bears it out - if a consumer has a box, they're almost certainly running Windows.
that there are still people who bother to listen to what Gartner has to say. I use to work for a very large company who subscribed to gartner, and we "had access" to all their super secret predictions. After a year we talked them out of renewing the subscription because it was a complete waste of money. We could tell you exactly what the reports would say well before they were released. Gartner is well in microsloths back pocket, and do exactly what microsloth wants them to do.
Just three more hours seapeople and you can finally take me away from this crappy God Damned planet full of hippies
People pirating Windows on Linux boxes just don't know they're pirating. They get Linux for free, and assume Windows is too (actually, pirated copies of Microsoft should require giving $200 back on the fact it was even considered to use Windows)
I'm going to go create my own technology news site, with blackjack and hookers. You know what? Forget the news site.
Of coarse, Gartner know that it is just a spin, which they try to paint as truth. Someone is SERIOUSLY worried that ISV, hardware manifacturers, etc. will start to take Linux into account and will start to build around it! Ohh, what a horror, Windows-only world is impossible, sky is falling!
But seriously, do they really believe their own lies? They clearly know that GNU/Linux has maybe far more than 6% of installed base - because most people which uses Linux is downloaded it from internet for free. It is nearly impossible to know the correct percentage of that.
And also - I think that most pepole who buys OEM computer with Linux do that with purpose - to use it! Because OEM will pay Microsoft tax anyway - look at the price, it is not so much difference. So what is the reason not to buy Windows computer directly? Nice spin, but...a little bit wrong logic.
And in the end, I just migrate and convert some ten computers each month (small/medium business stuff) to my Debian based distro. And I don't know why everyone claims 'Linux is not ready for the desktop!', 'Linux sux', 'GPL is viral', etc.
It works. It really works guys. That's all I know.
user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
d) Require a liscensed "Microsoft Install Technician" to do all "after-market" installs, and don't give anyone else the disks.
e) Custom-make each Windows CD to only work with one CPU serial/ID number, pass extra costs on to the customer and blame the pirates.
Anyone want to work on options f, g, h?
Little Brother, watching the watchers
I paid for Windows 95 back when it first came out. I am not paying for bug fixes, so Im still waiting for what I paid for... Windows XP... still waiting. Linux however, I can not complain about. Since I only pay for the internet connection to download it. You wanna know why people pirate Windows so much? BECAUSE IT SUCKS YET WE ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE IT. Gamers are screwed until Linux steps up.
I expect these folks to report very soon that Bill Gates does not shit and that the Linux community has a 1 billon contract on every employee of MS.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
If the BSA/Microsoft win and home users are forced to pony up for Windows and Office, way more than 7.5% of them will switch to linux anyway. Actually stopping piracy will be the death of these guys, and they have no real interest in doing it.
The fact that there's Gartner written on it doesn't mean it is a realiable statement or word from a Holy Book of Markets.
:
Indeed, let's look back in 1999 when (according to this CNN article) some among the "prestigeous" Garnter analysis predicted
The Gartner Group finding is that Linux will fade from the scene following the release of the first service pack for Windows 2000.
Service Pack 2 was really so terrific ?! Man, if Service Pack 2 can do that imagine what could an hotfix do..maybe cure plague ? Guess Nostradamus is spinning in his grave as he finally found some serious competition.
See this article for a more interesting take.
A. It's not hard to build PCs and pirate Windows onto them (most companies won't 'cos the risk of audit is high, whereas consumers have less money so are less important market).
B. Even if true, so what? 80% of cars are used to break speed limits. There is no cogent argument here.
Posters recognized by their sig,
Your argument presupposes that 'free' in Linux refers to price. It doesn't. There are other, more important reasons to run the OS than low cost of entry.
I buy Linux machines to reformat and install a warez version of Microsoft's Windows XP Starter Edition. Merely having product activation telling me how much I can upgrade my hardware was not draconian enough. I want an OS that also tells me how many programs I can open and what resolution I can use. Damn-it, freedom is overrated!
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Which makes it illegal to sell a computer without Windows bundled. That'll stop these evil pirates.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
What do you think of this I think it hits the subject on the head source : http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6049 GNU/Linux, and tons of useful software that comes along with it, is clearly attracting interest from a range of quarters. From Pakistan to the UNDP, from Africa to Malaysia, and even in the Philippines or Thailand and Nepal, GNU/Linux is being closely watched, studied and adopted in a range of interesting experiments. Created and propagated largely by volunteers, most of GNU/Linux's growth simply isn't based on giant billion-dollar spinning corporations that have the resources to promote its cause. So, such success stories from the Third World could largely go unnoticed. In large parts of the world where the average per capita income is often less than the cost of a computer, the current phenomenal price of software turns millions into "pirates". In these parts of the globe, words such as free or low cost are not necessarily associated with low-quality, but offer to include millions who otherwise would be simply left out in the cold. Because GNU/Linux is open source, there are no mountains of secrecy blocking replicability. So prices of the same fall to a point which is dramatically low compared to proprietary software and thus affordable to the millions. For instance, a couple of hundred thousand copies of GNU/Linux have been distributed across India, through local popular computer magazines, at a price of just around $2. That includes both the cost of a slick magazine and CD. This software can, of course, be legally copied across as many computers as needed. This being the case, is it surprising that there are interesting stories coming from varied corners of the Third World? From Pakistan--Low-Cost Computers Pakistan Ministry of Science and Technology advisor Salman Ansari says that some 50,000 low cost computers are to be installed in schools and colleges all over Pakistan. These will be PII computers, each being sourced for less than $100 a piece, he says. Proprietary software for these PCs would cost a small fortune. Surely more than what the computers cost. But, using GNU/Linux ensures that the overall prices are kept low. Pakistan is seriously considering the use of StarOffice office as well, saving thousands of rupees over using more expensive and wholly proprietary office software. "Don't be surprised if we become the first country in the world to say that all (government-run) services are going to be GNU/Linux based," Ansari says enthusiastically. In Africa too In Africa too, GNU/Linux is making its impact felt. Dakar (Senegal)-based Pierre Dandjinou is ICT-D Policy Advisor for Africa. Says Dandjinou: "At one point, we got an idea to set up an Open Source Foundation for Africa. We are working on it." He points to discussion list to discuss open source. South Africa's network is perhaps the most popular among the continent. Dandjinou, as ISOC (Internet Society) chairman for Benin, was able to organise a conference on this subject. UNDP has been experimenting with such technologies since 1994. "Can African citizens be paying for all the proprietary software stuff?" he asks. Besides, SNDP, the Sustainable Network Development Programme, which is a network promoted by the UN, itself uses Linux in some 47 countries worldwide. But Dandjinou says: "I don't feel the cost (alone) is an issue. Of course, if you compare (the price of Open Source or Free Software products) with what we've been paying by using proprietary software packages, we have been paying really a lot of dollars. But more than price, what matters is the application development. The idea of the openness should be kept there. Openness and sharing... these are great values in themselves." M. Thierry Hyacinthe Amoussougbo, the coordinator for the Cisco regional academy in Benin, says that enthusiasm about GNU/Linux is high, even if there are still practical problems in implementation. Part of the problem is due to lack of technical skills to spread GNU/Linux sufficiently. Besides, the widespread predominance of pirated
The Gartner Group is largely sponsored, not to say owned, by Microsoft. Their task is to project the phony image of an independent research group. What Microsoft does is absolutely disgusting. I really hope they legally get their ass kicked and more people start suing them.
as owners are more than likely than not to pirate them.
Those pirating DVDs are an incredibly majority. Mostly because the effort and difficulty involved isn't worth the minimal cost savings involved after you buy the DVD recorder and blank DVDs, etc. (There are factors too, loss of quality, compression, etc.)
VHS tapes are pirated by more people than DVDs, but still not that many people; mostly because most people only have one VCR anymore, and if they have two, the other one probably doesn't even work. It's a lot easier to do.
Cassette tapes were VERY easy to pirate. And the practice was much more common. Once DVDs become easy and cheap to copy, then you're statement might be correct.
What?
Of course, not only Microsoft is unhappy with this phenomenon. The Linux community is not amused either, since of course we would have preferred to see the customers continuing the use of Linux instead of wiping it from the drive and replacing it with Windows, pirated or not.
:)
But perhaps there is a solution that could kill two bird with one stone: make Linux-systems deliberately incompatible with Windows by supplying them with a legacy-free OpenFirmware-implementation, such as OpenBIOS, which could be optimised specifically for Linux.
Many experienced UNIX and Linux users have been desiring OpenFirmware/OpenBIOS acceptance in the x86-market anyway, and this may be just the chance to make it happen!
It's a perfect solution: On the one hand, Microsoft can no longer complain about Linux-systems being a merely a method to use pirated copies of Windows. On the other hand, selling Linux systems solely with OpenBIOS firmwares (and making some modification to make the motherboards imcompatible with pirated legacy BIOS-versions) guarantees that buyers will be running Linux (or other open-source/free-software OS'es) instead of Windows on it.
And of course, as we all know, an Openfirmware-based BIOS would provide additional technical advantages and features over legacy BIOS implementations.
And finally: true OpenBIOS-enabled Linux-systems would be free from any DRM-crap.
Take the problem, and turn it in to an opportunity Wonderful!
"Oooh, does that mean we get to kick some puffy white mad zionist butt?"
When piracy is defined as any use that the vendor does not approve of, it's hard to call it a moral issue and to think of the vendor as a victim.
Exactly. This is another variant of the problem that the entertainment content industry has created for itself: By making copyright terms so long that most people don't realize they ever expire, people no longer see copyright as a good trade -- or as any kind of trade at all -- and therefore have no compunction about violating the hell out of it.
It's a slashdot cliche, but it really is true: The more you tighten your grasp, the more copies will slip through your fingers, as the majority simply stops paying attention to your restrictions.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
As a result, the number of desktop Linux PCs that ship will exceed the actual percentage of Linux machines that get installed in the real world. Desktop Linux will account for about 5 percent of desktops shipped in 2004, according to Gartner, with 10.5 percent of the desktops in Asia shipping with Linux this year. However, the installed base of Linux will come to only 1.3 percent
I guess if you assume that the shipped units will replace 100% of existing machines, I guess this would be a startling claim.
As it is, if say there are 100 machines already in use, and only 1 of them runs Linux, then you ship out 100 more machines, and 10 of them are Linux Desktop machines. None of these 100 machines are used to replace existing machines. Now, your shipped units are 10% Linux boxes, but (horrors) only 5.5% of the installed base is running Linux.
PIRACY! PIRACY! Men with eye patches and parrots are looting software boutiques looking for copies of XP!
Thing is, most people don't bother to think critically about information presentation. Even if the facts are all correct, the wording leads to false conclusions.
I can see it now... Linux made illegal because it's being used to circumvent copy protection controls in Windows. Sheesh, I'm sure some lawyer will put those together sooner or later. Good thing nobody ever reads this.
-- Liberalism is a mental disorder.
Pirated copies of Windows? oh no, wait hasn't this been going on since about 1997 when AOL 2.5 came out and a huge WaReZ scene appeared. So this is nothing new.
:: Cyco(k) out
I have a funny comment on how Linux is better than Windows!
"Linux doesn't work better than Microsoft, its just used to pirate things."
What is interesting about this is its the exact same type of thing that Microsoft has been saying about every sort of talented person or organization since the 80s, starting with little kids.
But there is nothing wrong that can be impugned here. Not the slighted wrong that can be blown out of proporation. Just people that have gotten together and done a really good thing for everyone. And my Linux machine has been running solid with no down time since I can't remember. I can't keep the windows machine upstairs going for a day without crashing.
And Microsoft envies. Guess its coming from the Emerald city, also known as the seattle area.
If you don't like the rules, don't play the game.
Blar.
Well, whatever. I personally really enjoy the rock solid stability of Linux, the utter absence of virii, spyware, popups, adware, and segmentation faults, as well as the vast array of software that enjoys near 100% compatibility with other OS'es. Sure it would be nice to have more games for Tux, but a person can always get a Playstation to scratch that particular itch.
But as far as getting most kinds of work done, Linux is great. I recommend it to all my clients. Most of them have spent enough hours sitting around getting further and further behind their deadlines because trojan horse x has taken down the MS network; it's an easy sell indeed.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
I really don't see what all the fuss is about.
"Desktop Linux will account for about 5 percent of desktops shipped in 2004, according to Gartner, with 10.5 percent of the desktops in Asia shipping with Linux this year. However, the installed base of Linux will come to only 1.3 percent."
then:
"In 2008, Linux will account for 7.5 percent of PCs shipped, but only 2.6 percent of the installed base..."
Does anyone else notice that they are comparing shipments with installed base? Unless we were to assume that the entire installed base of PCs is thrown away and replaced each year, this is a bogus comparison.
It's similar in kind to comparisons of raw numbers with percentages. I start a new club. I'm the only member. Next year, I get someone else to join my club. I can report that I've grown my club's membership that year by 100%.
"This signature quote intentionally left blank"
but they can't make music like brian wilson did.
you need a written order from God to get a branded computer without the windows virus on it. you can also buy a box full of random parts anyplace, and build a kickass computer with no OS any time you want.
where gartner is pulling this "data" from, I don't know, and I am not about to spend hundreds of dollars to find out. it is so bogus on its face that I can't see how gartner is staying in business.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
I've read the article, and Gartners 'Report'. No facts, no data, no tests run discussed. The report does not even demonstate any sampling methods. FUD material.
At the end of the report, it does say, (off report topic), that novice users use only a few tools; and windows.
This would make an interesting web site. The site would be an index of simple ways to do VERY simple tasks in linux. The index would be impressive itself, but the content need not be to 'overly stated'.
I have never entered into a contract with Microsoft. Indeed, the last few machines I have bought had MS Windows pre-installed, so I never even had to click on "I accept" to install it. Under the doctrine of First Sale, in the absence of a contract I can do what I please with the goods that I purchase. Can someone explain to me how Microsoft's wishes could possibly be binding on me?
For me this is a purely hypothetical question since I have no interest in running MS Windows, but I am perplexed by the idea that Microsoft's EULA's can be binding on people who either never saw them until after they purchased the software or on people who have never even looked at the EULA. Haven't the courts ruled that such "shrinkwrap licenses" are invalid?
What they fail to realize is that the common factor in pirating Windows is a computer without Windows, not just computers preloaded with Linux. The fact that these computers are being sold with Linux is just a distraction. Many people build their own computers just so they can pirate Windows and not have to pay the higher price to include the OS. Should we then disparage the selling of separate computer components as conducive to Windows piracy?
This is a huge logical fallacy to imply that Linux has anything to do with these people's intentions. They are trying to save money and so they buy very cheap pre-built computers and pirate Windows.
I have always been told that the kind of statistical researches of companies like Gartner have some point or other to make. But having read the summaries of this research, one can only wonder which conclussion they are trying to reach? (I once saw a university medical statistical study proving that people living in the country and owning no cars are likely to have a higher risk of colon cancer!)
;-)
On all the new PCs I have ever bought over the years, some windows flavour had been pre-installed. In more than half of the cases, it was reformatted and promptly replaced by a Linux flavour.
Thus: if pre-installed desktop linux pc's are treatening for MS-sales and encouraging windows piracy, is the opposite not true and can it therefore not be concluded that pre-installed desktop windows pc's are treatening to linux and encouraging linux piracy?
Let's us conclude that this kind of statistical research is not conclussively written in numbers, but should rather be written with astrological starcharts!
Peace & Long Life,
MadMan-2
Actually in many countries they levy tax on blank media on presumption that they'll be used for piracy. They already won that battle from a different direction.
--
I refuse to use
Now there's a good idea.
No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
RTFA?
As a result, the number of desktop Linux PCs that ship will exceed the actual percentage of Linux machines that get installed in the real world. Desktop Linux will account for about 5 percent of desktops shipped in 2004, according to Gartner, with 10.5 percent of the desktops in Asia shipping with Linux this year. However, the installed base of Linux will come to only 1.3 percent.
So white boxes and Linux-preinstalled-and-actually-running-Linux boxes have a combined negative market share? That's what it would take for the offsets to negate each other and wind up with a 1.3% installed base. If you take the "Linux runs longer on older boxes" argument at face value, the installed base is even more negative.
+5:offtopic,but anti-American
In the major corporation where I work, they just bought 100+ Dell desktops with Windows XP installed.
First thing that happened once these desktops got in the building? IT wiped the hard drives and installed Linux.
I think this is because our corporate deal with Dell gives us a few vanilla configuration options, instead of the full suite of Dell flexibility.
69% of all statistics are made up and i have the recomendations of 3 out of 4 statisticians to back me up on this one....
...that Linux sold PCs, or was a perticular brand of PC. That's what the headline implies. It also implies that the particular configuration of a "Linux PC" is such that pirating Windows is easy/convenient/necessary for many users.
It should say the 60% of PCs which are sold pre-loaded with (a) Linux OS have had pirated versions of Micorsoft Windows installed after the customer buys the PC. I'm curious what the stat is for PCs which are sold without operating systems. ( I didn't rtfa, I assumed it wasn't in there. If I did rtfa, I wouldn't have time to post!)
I must say i dont think I have ever heard anything more infurating than this. Of course it doesnt need to be said who funded this study..
But to say this when it is so difficult to find any high street store or OEM that will sell you a computer without Windows -- because of the penalties imposed by Redmond... Man this fires me up badly.
Is it so difficult to swallow that some people actually prefer an operating system that doesnt have all the flaws that Windows has ? Is it so bad that OEM's and other companies are starting to notice this? what next ? It really amazes me who dreams up these new and wonderful FUD stories to try and blacken Linux, whos very existance is borne from love?
The increasing trend of OEM's selling PC's with linux pre-installed is because there is a certain amout of demand for it - in the server space and increasingly as an alternative desktop for developers and in some cases just ordinary folk.
Once again this simply emphasizes how worried they are in Redmond about the linux trend that they dont seem to be able to do anything about except generate lies and FUD which is usually ill informed - made up - or just twisted statistics. If these people are failing to see the merits of Linux and the community of people behind it creating software- well then there is no hope for Windows getting any better.
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
That 100% of the machines I've bought with Windows pre-installed are actually used to run Linux.
f) Have the PC manufacturers lock the pcs so you can't change OS, ever
g) ???
h) Profit!!
*ducks*
My company buys dozens of PCs every month from a Tier 1 OEM which all come with the windows tax, we never boot these systems on windows, we just stick in our Linux LiveCD and convert them for our purposes. Does Gartner account for this? (yes others have mentioned other somewhat similar scenarios, but this is somewhat different, because we are doing this with machines being sent to our customers, not internal use machines.)
Cassette tapes were VERY easy to pirate. And the practice was much more common. Once DVDs become easy and cheap to copy, then you're statement might be correct.
:) Just about every high-street electrical store back in the late 80's was selling dual cassette deck stereos, with features like synchro-copy, turbo-copy; which would play tape #1 at double/triple speed, but not start recording onto tape #2 until audio was heard on tape #1.
I remember
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
The desktop I bought with Suse Linux pre-installed didn't keep that linux on it. I installed Slackware Windows on it. Shame on me.
and what nembers do they show for PCs sold with windows that get reformatted for Linux?
this seems to be much more common to me.
My keyboads not woking popely.
um rasist?
slashdot was raving over studies that favored Linux from this group, but if the study isn't in Linux's favor, suddenly it's a conspiracy with MS, or they have no merit...
whine cry and pout all you want, it isn't helping anyone. Now if you would use your energy to improving the Linux desktops, helping to TRAIN the windows users so they can use Linux, then you would have something to be proud of, instead of riding ms-hater bandwagons (along with other zeelots without a clue)...
This is the last stage when M$ realizes that their ROI FUD isn't working.
They're claiming that people are buying Linux machines, to save money, and then turfing Linux in favour of an unsupported, bootleg copy of Windows.
Yeah. Right. Brilliant. Anybody bright enough to replace an operating system (at best daunting task,) is bright enough not to try it.
I have a LinkSys LAN at home with a Linux box, a couple of OS X Macs and a Windows box. I keep the Windows box turned OFF.
Then I don't have to worry about it getting viruses, worms, trojean horses and other forms of pestilence.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
How many machines are out there that have had earlier versions of windows on them that are now currently running a pirate copy of XP?
You know, those Win2K boxes were just bought so that people could pirate XP onto them.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
A friend of mine, that never, never listens to me until it's way to late and I hate to sit him down and tell him "I told you so, I told you so, it's a POS.." just went and bought a Gateway PC.
Basics, P4-2.6ghz, 512m, 120m, Nvidia, CRT & MF PSCF, and, Winbloz XP home.
He ordered the machine, $1,500 (about $800 more than I could have built one from scratch)
He brings the whole thing, brand new in the box to me and says, "Install Suse 9.1 Pro on it please." and takes off.
Guess what? This Gateway machine will NOT BOOT AT ALL if it detects a Linux formated hard disc (0x83) plugged into it via ANY means. IDE, IDE on a card, even a USB drive formated for Linux stops the boot from happening. It won't boot Linux from CD or DVD, it won't touch Linux at all. It is coded into the bios to NO BOOT if it detects a non windows drive connected to it.
It won't boot with XP as the OS on the primary drive and a Linux formated drive connected as a secondary drive. I spent a week verifying this. I tried dozens of different drives, CD's, DVD's, distros, and combos thereof. I had to re-install XP back on it and tell my friend, "You screwed the pooch, take it back." He won't, he claims he signed a contract to make payments on it. Screw that, I say it's broken and should be at the very least replaced with a usable machine. So my dumb friend is going to keep it, pay for it and give it to his daughter.
So, Gateway and M$ have found a way to prevent anyone from using anything but M$.
Oh, and one last comment, these so called XP pirates that would use Linux to pirate XP? Nope. They are too stupid to figure out how to use Linux just to get free winbloz. To do this they would have to spend way to much time figuring out how to setup their PPPOE, then finding using GTK-Gnutella or BitTorrent & Python and finally K3b to burn it to disc. Right.
I've seen these low end PC's that have Linux pre-installed, ThizLinux. Total, unusable GARBAGE. Trust me, they will never accomplish the task. Just go to any of the alt.os.distro.linux groups and read any of the multitude of "Linux sux!" posts....
These retards will just get a copy from a buddy that's already online. XP is easier to find than crack or meth. Something they need to quit smoking. Oh, and if Linux is such an easy to use pirating tool, why is it that M$ is the number one delivery system for pirated warez?
Someone should sue these morons for slander and liable.
Come on, if you knew anything about Linux you'd know it's a valid desktop replacement for windows now.
No it doesn't run all the same programs, and there is a learning curve (because people are used to windows), but it can be done easily enough.
Just had to give you props for your sig
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
The Stole 90% of their software? Wow, at least they didn't steal my copy it's still sitting right here. I wonder who the poor people that got their copies stolen where? Seems like a bunch of people would be complaining if all of a sudden their computer wouldn't boot because someone stole their software.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
Gartner continues to float out these reports that seem to be more and more biased. At some point, people have to start wondering. Hey, it worked for CBS until the forgeries were too blatent.
Will they be releasing articles complaing that XP Starter edition PC's are also a vehicle for pirating XP (full edition?) because you can sure as hell bet that is going to happen- as soon as consumers discover that they can only run 3 applications at once, out comes bit torrent and zip goes fdisk?
... I've got three examples of this in my house right now...
Has it ever occurred to them that Windows installation figures are also over-inflated because many people buy OEM PC's pre-loaded with windows and then erase and install linux exclusively ? I know
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
And where is the evidence for this? Can we see the raw data they based their study on? No? Then I guess there is nothing to see here, just another "research firm" making claims they can't back up.
Nathan's blog
Ok, so they throw around numbers like 40% and 80% but make no reference to how they came up with those numbers. I'll make one up of my own, 20% of all machines sold with Windows end up with downloaded copies on Linux on them. I don't know if it's true, but judging from the article I don't have to give evidence as to where the number came from.
I went googling for more about enforcement of Eulas and ran into the case of Softman vs Adobe that indicated that first sale rights trumped the attempted EULA. I've run across nothing saying that that was overturned, and it is referred to in First Sale at wikipedia.
Live and learn.
I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
I've been completely aware (and approve!) of the trend of buying a PC with Windows and nuking the Windows install to put linux on the machine. what I had never considered was the opposite! People could actaully be buying a Linux PC and nuking it to put Windows on it. :)
That's horrible! we need to find these people and tell them to hold off! Just try it for a week before putting windows on it. It's for thier own good!
And, if we can convinve them to try it (that's enough to keep 'em from switching back, I would think) Then we've helped MS cut down on that awful pirating. We've got to educate those users and reduce the pirating! Who's with me?!
AB HOC POSSUM VIDERE DOMUM TUUM
If Microsoft had its way, nobody would be allowed to buy separate PC components.
Well, what if somebody puts them all together and makes a PC? Then it wouldn't have an operating system, and you'd be a pirate.
I wonder what the other software companies will do to ensure that their software isn't pirated? Maybe you'll soon only be allowed to buy a PC if you buy a copy of Photo Shop (incase you pirate that).
Actually, when you buy a house, you may soon find that you are forced to pay for cable, incase you start using a descrambler illegally.
Man, things could really get expensive here!
Linux/Open Source/Anti Microsoft News
...personally I use Windows PCs to download Linux ISOs and burn them.
"I know there are a lot of Linux zealots on Slashdot, but does this really suprise anyone?"
... this means that there is more Linux-friendly hardware being sold.
It surprised me. I would not have imagined any Linux zealots on slashdot.
"Certainly not me."
You must know more about the habits of Linux zealots than I do.
"There are a couple of things to consider here."
#1. Linux?
#2. Zealots?
"1. The only replacement for Windows on the desktop is Mac OS X. Linux is not that replacement."
Whatever. Hey, I have a question for you. If if a "zealot" is someone who is overly fond of an OS, what is the term for someone who is overly antagonistic towards an OS?
"2. A lot of people are unwilling to pay for what they want, or have a feeling of entitlement that they don't actually have."
Whatever. The story I read was about WINDOWS users who were "pirating" WINDOWS licenses. That seems to be Microsoft's problem.
"You end up with the people who are willing to switch, and willing to pay, switching to Mac OS X."
Possibly. But I have heard rumours that certain people actually PAY for a Linux distribution and CHOOSE to run that on PC hardware. I know, it's difficult to believe and probably not true. But wouldn't it be cool?
"People who are unwilling to pay for a Win XP software license will buy a cheap PC and not a Mac anyway."
Yeah, but do we really care about cheap Windows users?
"Since they don't care about licenseing either, you end up with pirated copies of Windows software run on Linux-shipped PC's."
Yeah. Could be. I don't know of any personally, but I do have a couple Windows servers that are now running Debian Linux.
"It makes logical sense to me. It may be a sad state of affairs from a plethora of angles, but it's certainly not a surprise!"
Whereas all I see are cheap WINDOWS users "pirating" WINDOWS licenses. Why isn't this article about how a certain percentage of Windows users are thieving crooks with no respect for licensing or "intellectual property"?
On the plus side
Quick! Somebody check the receipt on that report!
Nooooo, I'm not suggesting that it was "purchased." Not at all...
Most vendors, as part of their licensing agreements (from those that I've spoken with, it appears that this is a standard OEM contract component) have to purchase a M$ OS license for every PC sold, regardless of whether the customer orders the unit with a M$ OS.
So even a PC ordered with Linux, the vendor has to buy a M$ license for that PC.
Why doesn't the customer then get that license, since the vendor cannot re-use that license?
Who is general failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
1. IP is not the enemy. The very notion of IP protects GPL software. Without the ideaology of copyright, or the government granting a MONOPOLY on a certain intellectual representation to you, you would not be able to release your code to the world with the precondition that others would have to release their code as well (I understand the GPL is slightly more complex, but you can figure out what I mean).
2. This research is BullShit(TM). Every store bought PC I've ever gotten has been formated and had Linux installed. 100%. It's like 15 machines. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Ancedotal, yes. Suggestive? Yes, as well. Definetely needs to be considered in any serious research.
3. Is Windows pirating worse than Linux purchase one, install many? I dunno. In absolute terms, probably. So many Windows users, piracy is rampant, 2+2=big numbers. But, at the same time, many institutions purchase 1 copy of Linux, and install it several times. I've gotten 1 copy of SuSE for my office, and install it on 6-7 machines. I've done this with every edition of SuSE that has been released. (I've got a row of SuSE boxes on my shelf). Linux marketshare numbers also do not include roll your own 'puters, as well as Debian installs, which can be hugely widespread (Debian is a 'top 5' linux, for what little that is worth).
General market trends do NOT make sense in the Linux world. The Linux market is NOT big enough for the assumption that pre-installs are the primary indicator of Linux marketshare.
It might be true, and it might become more true in the future, but I won't believe any research/conclusions predicated on that assumption.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
Let me start by saying I've been using linux exclusivly for over a year now (yeah, I'm kinda late into it, but I'm there at last), and before that, I always bought my computers in parts, and never no OS. DOS and Windows were borrowed from a friends dad or something or warezed on the internet/bbs.
;), but I'd be glad to support the community with a $xx addon for linux on my purchased computer system, especially on a laptop which can be nice if they are pre-installed.
Last year, I started to feel worse about using an operating system without paying for it (which you SHOULD do if you run windows or other os's which are not free). But for me, paying up front or switching to linux.. linux started to sound like a very good idea.
I started out with red hat, tried suse and debian but got stuck with mandrake, and to tell you the truth, I know I used to just download windows (and I download linux, but it's not so bad
(of course I could do some charity to the community too, or choose which projects I'd like to support)
I rather support a movement that doesn't put profit in the front row.. but maybe that's just me.
Albert
After all I've spent the last 8 years or so taking machines bought with Windows and using them to run Linux.
"Talk minus action equals nothing" - Joey Shithead, D.O.A.
"Talk minus action equals
Wouldn't deliberately making a computer incompatible with Windows be in the same vein as many of the bad business practices that MS is often accused of?
May be over 90% of Windows PCs are used to pirate something, like music, PKZIP, games, etc... I think it will be much harder to find a Windows PC that has not been used for pirating something during the life of the PC. Not talking vendors has the RIGHT to sell whatever they can sell and being not LIABLE for what the buyer will do.
No shit, Sherlock.
Most likely the original user is trying to use an Install disk to do a dual-boot, but because the only available OEM copy of Windows is an "FDISK, Format and Re-install" recovery disk, he's S.O.L. on using a Retail disk.
The best thing to do is contact the seller of the PC, and ask for a Windows XP OEM installation CD that doesn't FDISK the system first.
Kinetic stupidity has a new brand leader: Allen Zadr.
Why would anyone downgrade from Linus to Windows? Sounds like a load of bull to me!
kin242.net
It was bound to happen. PCs with Windows preinstalled are so readily available it was only a matter of time before people started buying Windows loaded PCs just so they could install a pirated copy of linux once they get the box home. . . oh wait. Nevermind.
burnin
This is a jab at the credibility of selling Linux installed machines to protect the perpetuation of the Windows tax. The report is pumped into the media channel to implant the idea that selling Linux installed PCs is a bad idea because the users are just going to install pirated Windows anyway. The same thing happened with "Bare" or "Naked" PCs a couple of years back. That's why only way you can get a box without anything on the hard drive is nearly impossible without building your own.
Just because the figures are true doesn't mean there aren't ulterior motives for a report to be funded to bring those numbers to light.
I want MS to:
A)Stop patching pirated copies of Windows.
B)Have Windows Update sabotage pirated copies of Windows.
C)Break compatability with newer versions of MS apps (Office, Outlook Express, Internet Explorer, Windows Media Player) with pirated versions of Windows.
D)Legally crack down on pirates like none-other.
Right now, we exist in a world where it is okay to get Windows for free (pirate), and the cost is subsidized by the rest of the world.
If EVERYONE that used Windows was forced to considered the market(monopoly) value of it, Windows marketshare would fall off considerably.
I used to pirate Windows. One day, I made the decision to keep all my systems 'legal'.
This brought the level of problems I've had with my Linux systems into focus.
Of course, this hasn't been hurt by the general improvements in Linux distros. SuSE 9.1, IMHO, is a very polished, easy to use distro.
Force people to understand the true costs of using MS software, both upfront (end piracy), and TCO (patching, clearing viruses/worms, spyware crap, other generalized Windows issues), and the costs of using Linux don't seem to bad (have to be picky with hardware, much smaller software base (counterweighed by tons of free software), training needed to become familiar with the layout of your particular distro).
In order for the Free Software community to become more succesful than it already has, and continue to claim more and more marketshare, we need to have a VERY strong respect for Intellectual Property rights.
The very same protections that gave us the GPL highlight the BEST economic advantages of F/OSS.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
Your signature is wrong: Bin Laden *wants* Bush to be reelected.
as in: understand the f***ing article.
all the study concludes is that sold units of PCs with preinstalled linux will exceed units of PCs that *use* linux post-purchase because those PCs can then be used to install cheap copies of pirated windows.
for the reading-comprehension-impaired: (PriceOfLinuxPC + PriceOfPiratedWindows) PriceOfWindowsPC
neither the article nor the study is an indictment of linux or linux users.
...that Gartner isn't in Microsoft's pocket.
We have a few major issues with this particular study.
1. If there were PCs bundled with a free copy of BeOS Personal Edition, would Gartner be saying the same thing? Probably not as this is completely politically motivated.
2. Microsoft can't and shouldn't make the decision about what OS all PCs ship with. The PC vendor should. To put it another way, should Bose be able to tell you what brand of stereo you can have installed in your new car by default? No. Same thing.
3. This is NOT a Linux specific issue. This is a user problem. Just because some people have no problem with going out and buying PCs that come with Linux and then overwriting it with pirated copies of Windows, does not have anything to do with the Linux community. If Microsoft really WANTS to solve this problem, then they should require unique ID numbers for every installation of Windows that will ID that copy. Then they should diable Windows on any systems with duplicate IDs until the legitimate user complains. When that user complains, Microsoft should then fine them for being irresponsible with their ID and charge them for a new ID to replace the now invalidated one. Do I think this is good? Yes. Because people will get fed up when they realize that Microsoft wants to charge them for every copy of Windows on every machine. People still don't get this and think piracy is OK. If piracy becomes a hassle, it will die. This will also push more people to other OSes unless they really think that the Microsoft way is worth the cost. Finally, no volume license keys for anyone. But... MS makes too much money from all the people who get hooked on their products through illegitimate channels. So none of this will ever happen. They'll give the OS away free before they ever let anyone take their customers away.
Un-news
So, how many millions of PCs sold with Windows are running pirated copies of Linux?
They should just put NT kernel in ROM and make it so it can't run anything else. Then you really wouldn't be able to run anything but windows on a PC.
Of course that's what these DRM compliant bioses are all about too. This issue will be going away shortly if the new bioses become the standard.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Microsoft forced me to pay $100 something for WindowsME back when I bought my laptop. Because no laptop in the area (I check 10+ places) came without a copy of Windows. Therefore, I sure didn't feel bad when I turned around and installed my copy of Windows 98SE on it. No install CD, no key, nothing. Just a restore CD that put the unstable copy of Windows ME back on there. There should be a law against the Microsoft tax. What if you had to buy a $200 shitty music CD compilation with every CD player? What if your car came with a warranty, but you had to pay extra past the agreed-upon price because they think you might be able to use your car in a crime? etc.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
Yes it's true we have the proof in a backroom right now. Children of longterm linux users are more likely than windows users children to develop birth defects.
then it is still better than the alternative OS free machines. If a box ships with Linux there is a chance the buyer will at least try Linux before installing Windows. Perhaps this will convert a few people, or at least let them realize there are other good alternatives out there.
Yes it's true.
BALLS!
Ok, what about the people that started off with win98 or winme and then use pirated copies of win2k or xp, what about those rotten bastards??? Do we mention them, no.
The people who continue to use windows are those who have not tried a version of linux designed for their specific user level. Bold statement yes, but since that seems to be going around...
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing. Emo Philips
How many Windows licenses go unused because Linux got installed on some old x86 box that came with Windows pre-installed?
"Provided by the management for your protection."
c) Introduce a crippled, lower cost version of Windows: Windows XP Starter Edition.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Can you tell us:
-How many machines originally sold with Windows are used with a pirated version of Windows?
Most pirates I am pretty sure buy a computer, and decide to upgrade the OS.
They go crazy scared about the insane price and decide to do the easiest thing: pirate the damn thing.
It would be interesting if Gartner can come with statistics that show another side of the same issue.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I have never, ever seen a single cited example of how Fox News is biased. They always present an issue, have pundits from both sides debate it, then move on to the next segment.
I'm getting to the point where I think some people just hate Fox News because they dare air the opposing viewpoint, unlike CNN and our beloved CBS.
You still need a MacOS... but...
A feel dirty even posting this, but we use it for the macs that have "essential" windows applications.
...is why Bill doesn't go to the owners of Linux to collect his share?
I'm not surprised that people are installing pirated copies of Windows on PCs which they purchase with no OS, DOS, linux, or some older version of Windows.
But I am also aware that this report serves no purpose other than to slam linux and open source. If they really wanted to produce some valuable information they would have included other parameters in their study, i.e. linux PCs legally converted to Windows, other OS's converted to Windows, and Windows converted to other OS's.
It seems the report is also lacking some additional information which is important. Even if their numbers are correct on the quantity of linux PCs that end up running a pirated copy of Windows, how has this impacted the total number of PCs running pirated copies of Windows before linux was offered? Many PCs can be had with linux preloaded or included at no additional cost when compared to a no OS PC. So it could be that the usual suspects who have always pirated their copies of Windows are ordering linux PCs so they can check out linux and dual boot to their pirated copy of Windows which they would have pirated with or without linux.
And finally, your 1) statement is incorrect. Linux is a replacement for a Windows desktop. You may be locked in to your Windows only apps, but there are many of us out here who are getting along just fine with a Linux desktop in place of a Windows alternative.
burnin
Now what is the percentage of people who Prirate a new version of windows to update their old one? Even if if this nuber is very small like 4% (which from my personal experience is actually closer to 40%-60%) It is still a greater number then the total of Linux (Windows) Piraters.
But you will have to expect pirating to happen when you make a product that is demanded by 90% of the population to have. And its cost is around 4% of the average yearly income for Americans. But even they blocked all the priating of windows Microsoft will not make much more money from it. Because people will just not upgrade Or Switch to an other platform.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
PCs running Linux are growing in popularity in part because they can be loaded with a pirated copy of Windows, according to a study from analyst Gartner.
The same could be said for any x86 boxen regardless of what OS they came with. There are certainly people who have boxen they bought with windows 2000, who are now running pirated copies of windows xp. There are people who bought boxes with legitimate copies of windows who now run linux.
The consulting firm issued a report on Wednesday stating that about 40 percent of Linux PCs will be modified to run an illegal copy of Windows, a bait-and-switch maneuver that lowers the cost of obtaining a Windows PC.
About 60% of statistical numbers are pulled out of thin air. Undoubtably this 40% number was calculated with less than provable methods. Prove me wrong. What, did they go around asking people?
"Sure mr gartner consultant. I bought my computer with linux, and stole a copy of windows to put on it."
Give me a freaking break. Does gartner believe that IT people are that stupid, oh wait, I have met a few... never mind that point. If their information is good, then Microsoft would have already court ordered them to provide the sources of this information, thus the pirates would be caught. Gartner is not a journalistic entity and has no obligation to protect it's sources should they be breaking the law, which these sources, if legitimate, do every time they turn their computer on.
In emerging markets, where desktop Linux enjoys wider popularity, the trend is even starker. Around 80 percent of the time, Linux will be removed for a pirated copy of Windows. Pirated copies sell for around $1 in the streets of Shanghai and other cities in Asia and Eastern Europe, but can also be bought in stores selling brand name PCs.
In america anyone with a dsl connection can download the pirated cd in an hour, for free. Why should the US's piracy rate be lower than that of a nation where you'd have to go out an find the thing first. That would take at least an hour. If their crock of bs was correct, the figures would be similar.
Looks like Gartner is just like all the rest of these pansies. They are nothing but a mouthpiece for Microsoft and Oracle, who used to have the sound of legitimacy. This should tell you a little about Gartner's integrity. They can't be trusted.
There is no way you could come close to putting an accurate percentage on who does what with their PC's once they are paid for. It's not possible. So if gartner is reporting such a percentage as fact, they are lying. They don't know, and they say they do. What else are they lying about?
L8,
AC
I bought a PC from Acer, which is preinstalled with Linux. They are very cheap indeed (US300.00)and comes with Celeron 2Ghz and 512MB of RAM. The first thing I do is to wipe out the HDD and install Windows "PIRATED" version. And I know a few friends and relatives who does the same too.
--Mike--
Funny you should mention YDL. Terrasoft (makers of YDL) are the only Apple authorized reseller allowed to package an Apple product with a different OS.
By default they install a dual-boot setup of YDL and OSX. But from what I've been told you can simply request that you don't want OSX installed. which is good if you want to use the entire drive for YDL.
I'm sorry but Apple fanboys should just stay out of this conversation. Apple keeps far tighter control over hardware and OS than Microsoft.
I'm not sure what your remark about Apple fanboys is all about. Your post has basically asked that a person with an opposing viewpoint need not reply? Why did you bother posting at all if you don't wish to discuss things? (If you didn't notice, I've ignored your request)
Also what does it mean that Apple keeps tighter control over the OS than Microsoft. (obviously not the hardware since MS isn't a hardware company). There are secret APIs in Windows. You need to buy an expensive dev kit if you want to write drivers for Windows. but on OSX you can write a driver for whatever USB dongle you have the specs for, and you can just use the bundled compiler and debugger. And the API docs are posted on apple's website. I MS's site also has freely available docs on devel topics too. From my point of view Apple has kept no more tighter grasp on it's OS than Microsoft has. Perhaps even a looser grasp if you consider that Darwin is completely open source. Am I somehow misinterpreting the point of your original statement?
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
"Gartner's making a bold prediction that the number of machines sold as Linux desktops may eclipse the number of machines actually running Linux."
Not sure what they were actually thinking.
Even if NONE of the sold-as-linux boxes remained linux, I doubt they'd exceed the total of all OTHER machines which run linux.
> Gartner's making a bold prediction that the number of machines sold as Linux
> desktops may eclipse the number of machines actually running Linux."
I don't think that's a fair conclusion. I'm willing to accept that many of
the systems sold with Linux end up with pirated Windows, because it makes
sense -- but the conclusion doesn't follow.
The unstated assumption is that all machines _not_ sold with Linux don't run
it, and this is known to be quite far from the truth. I posit that the
overwhelming majority of systems currently running Linux weren't sold with
it. Some may have been sold with Windows; many no doubt were sold with no
OS, and indeed a lot of them were built from parts by hobbyists.
I don't think it's reasonable to conclude _anything_ (positive _or_ negative)
about the number of Linux-running systems based on sales figures of any sort.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
Poor MS.
So what Gartner is saying is that MS, the biggest baddest computer programming company out there, can't come up with a scheme that would reduce/stop software pirating.
I guess if they did, they would have to add the cost of license management to TCO and that just wouldn't be right.
You assumption is flawed. Your logic only holds if you consider Windows to be superior to Linux. I have to use Windows for work but I generally have a much more pleasant desktop experience with Linux on my own machines.
There have been serious efforts at Chinese home grown Linux distributions such as Ref Flag Linux. I think this clearly suggests that there are Chinese that consider Linux to be the better OS. Since it is open source they can also have own localization and innovate for better input of Chinese characters. This is an advantage of Linux that MS will not be able to match unless they completly throw out their current business model.
Just for completion's sake, there is another set of product keys, for academic / MSDN distributions, which will not work on the distributions mentioned above.
Market Share and Forecast: PC Operating Systems, Asia/Pacific, 2002-2008 (Executive Summary)? ref=g_sear ch&id=454182
http://www4.gartner.com/DisplayDocument
Nearly 90 percent of PCs shipped in Asia/Pacific in 2004 will have Windows XP, BUT LESS THAN HALF OF THE INSTALLED BASE WILL USE IT. In 2008, 13 percent of unit shipments will come with Linux.
A comparable lack of drivers, training costs and migration headaches will also retard desktop Linux growth.
Best use of the word retard all day.
Are also all being used solely to pirate copies of windows!! Generic PCs rarely sell with a windows licence, DIY PCs rarely sell with a windows licence, and so-called "Windows PCs" rarely run the version of windows they have a licence for. WooHoo! what a great way to lambast pc's preloaded with linux and claim they are mearly tools of pirates!!
All pc's are tools, what people choose to do on those tools are the actions of those people alone. I wonder when people will actually be responsible for their own actions again? Or, I wonder when this new blame cycle will reach the pinacle of me being allowed to blame the gun for the death of someone I shoot. "no! I did not shoot the victim! the gun did!, and I did not steal the money out of his wallet, the crack I smoke did! It _MADE_ me do it!! I'm the innocent one!"
geez, how sad.
If Microsoft wants to make a profit off of Windows, they are going to have to purchase VMWare.
Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
In some countries, you cannot sell a pc without an operating system.
/u /s) solutions to overcome the law ...
:)
So stores offer pcs with dr dos or other free (one disk format c:
I do not see why you would spend loooong minutes to install linux, as opposed to disk in & format - 1 minute operation
on the other hand, at least the technically challenged can try linux, and maybe gets stuck with it, as I did since '94
While I agree with you, developing countries have extremely short sight. Thailand is famous for it's 98% piracy rate. The Thai OSS community has been working toward a national OS based on Linux for some time now, and has sold hundreds of thousands of pre-installed Linux computers.
The vast majority of them just end up with a pirated version of Windows, even though XP/Office combos are available legally for virtually nothing. The fact that a legal copy is available for little more than the pirated version doesn't matter when the owner is shopping entirely on price.
Computer literacy is low enough that few dare install anything different than Windows, because even a change in the menu sturcture will throw a lot of folks off.
Put identity in the browser.
Oh thats right they only attack the machines sold with linux cuz they have linux on them.
I don't think so. Building your own box requires a much more tech savy and confident person. I expect that this would be a very small subset of those who are able to install Windows. Secondly no one is really touting the sales of build-your-own while people are referring to sales of Linux PCs.
I can believe that someone probably really has pirated Windows, and maybe even really did it using a computer that came with Linux preloaded. But that 40% number? You just pulled that out of your ass. I can say it's 20% or 60% and my assertion is just as believable.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
There are some who believe that. I suspect that the situation is similar to Thailand's: the gov't would like to see the population use something other than US Windows, for numerous reasons, but the man on the street sees no reason to change from what he's used to, so things just go on as they have.
Put identity in the browser.
I am not a lawyer, but my new way of looking at a EULA is this: The only thing that makes a EULA binding is if you accept the terms of the EULA. The only thing that makes the "I agree" button have any meaning is the EULA. It's a circular reference problem. If you reject the EULA and tell yourself "I'm going to click that little button over there regardless of what it say because I own this software I bought and want to see what happens" and go ahead and click it... Well? IANAL, but this is how I treat EULAs now - not that I violate copyright, and I probably don't even violate whatever is in the EULA. I just explicitly tell myself that I disagree with it and install anyway. For extra fun I may start making up my own terms including "the software's willingness to install when I click 'I agree' indicates the manufacturers agreement to these terms".
Nah, they should just make sure you can't pirate MSWindows. Problem solved.
It's bad for Linux too if people can 'get' MSWindows for free, because if those people had to pay full price for MSWindows, they might consider switching to Linux.
Ok, how is this post not flamebait? First, it lumps Taiwan and Hong Kong with China. I can understand Hong Kong, but Taiwan??? It rants on how China has no respect for human rights. Fine, but what does the "brutal occupation of Tibet" have anything to do with Windows piracy???
Let's not even mention the logic problems with the only point of his/her entire rant: Windows is free, Linux is free, so Linux will have a hard time competing. In which I reply that just because Windows is free does not mean people will prefer Windows over Linux, especially when you take into account the security problems Window users are currently experiencing.
But that one point doesn't justify the inclusion of all that extra stuff into the post. Man, the poster must really hate the Chinese. His/her post is overrated at the very least, if not flamebait, offtopic, and trollish all rolled up in one. Mod accordingly.
Little Bricklets
Get off the grassy knoll, folks. Gartner is not in MS's pocket, even if they had one. Percentage desktop numbers are called into question; big deal, stop trusting them. Linux's numbers were still too small before this to consider desktop dev projects anyway. You can't sit on the open-source-free side of the fence and worry to death what corporations do for desktops. Run whatever you want in your owned company and at home, enjoy yourself, and stop flaming the rest of us at work (that don't have a choice) and home (who have not seen the light, or whatever you want to believe).
Hmmm... from my reading of the link, it appears this has not been ruled on by "the supreme court", as you say. In fact, the ruling was not even the final ruling in the case at hand. I think my company and I will respect the existing license agreements until there's something a little more final and definite that we can rely on.
Don't know about the stats, or the author's intent, but in some parts of the world it is true.
Win XP costs about $4 on the street in Peru. In a shop it costs almost double the price in the US.
You may be disappointed (if you're emotionallly attached to Linux's marketshare) so let me end by saying a fair amount of people over there do use Linux, I don't know what distro, but it has beautiful Spanish and Portuguese language support overall. Still, you'd pay about as much for that distro as for a pirated XP, so most go with what they know and think is cool.
And for those wondering "what about the Mac?", just forget about going through the official channels. Unless you have to. And have money to spare. Outpost.com does deliver some stuff (notably games), and the pirated stuff out there is pretty good and dirt cheap, in most cases the only option if you don't want to go to Miami - the closest real Apple store on the continent...
The Latin America Apple website is a disgrace. An abomination. The email addresses used don't even go anywhere (supposedly to Mexico, but none of my mails EVER got trough).
I think, therefore I am...I think.
if linux ease of use and software compatibility were on par with M$, as it is most of the pseople buying Lindows PC's at walmart are probably going home trying to load Deer Hunter, it doesn't work and then they go their nephew and beg for help, at which point said kid formats and installs windows
i seriously doubt M$ loses many permanent sales, i know plenty of people who thought linux would be the holy grail and were disappointed when they couldn't even get basic peripherals working, and those are all geeks who are willing to try not technophobes like my parents
I would be interested in hearing about what applications you use for this.
Email me? slashREMOVEdot2REMOVE@phormix.com
We must protect all PC users from the temptation to pirate software by requiring all PC's to come with Windows!
My God, I just channelled Jack Valenti!
Here in Tucson Arizona We've got a used Book/Game store called Bookmans. Try selling _any_ microsoft stuff there (save Xbox games) and they won't buy it. Microsoft threatened to sue them for buying and selling OEM copies of Windows (98 at the time, but it applies to all OS's now). They won't even buy boxed retail Microsoft software. I tried to sell a copy of Dungeon Seige for Christ's sake and they wouldn't take it.
It's not that they couldn't win, it's that they couldn't afford the lawsuit.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
I run a whole lab of linux computers...we wiped out the windows XP [snip] I think many people are wiping out windows and switching to linux
You are assuming your niche lab is representative of the public at large. It is not. From conversations with friends, coworkers, customers, folks at school (both students and faculty), other geeks online, etc. I find that many people who install Linux either dual boot because they are not willing to give up Windows, they are merely experimenting with Linux, and that most decide they do not care for Linux and stick with Windows. I was surprised that some fellow programmers with University backgrounds filled with Unix (BSD mostly) didn't even keep Linux for dual booting. Of the 100+ programmers at work, where we developer for Window, Mac, and Linux, only one exclusively runs Linux at home, mostly to avoid the security problems. Ignoring our Mac programmers, about 7 of the PC programmers run Macs at home to avoid the security problems. I suspect my anecdotal story is far closer to the "real" world than your anecdotal story.
In another simillar news. US auto manufacturers are losing profits as people buy up cheap Dihatsus and put Ford, Chevy and Dodge labels on them. By the way I bought my pc with no OS and now Im running an illagal version of Widnows that I found laying on the sidewalk.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
How many of the billion+ Chinese are already using a computer on a daily basis or even own one? According to this article less then 10% of all Chinese are using the internet.
This strongly suggests that Chinese users will be far less locked into Windows by sheer habit then it is the case in Europe and the US.
Add to this that entering Chinese characters is less then satisfactory with the current technology and you have the opportunity for a challenger to substitute Windows on the desktop in the Chinese market.
No it doesn't
It presupposes that the free price of Linux would otherwise be the major selling point.
That's a different thing to argue. (One I would agree with too)
A Gartner report has been released stating that users who choose to install Linux [hiss!] will soon hear a strange beeping sound from their computer/laptop. This beeping sound is none other than BABY BLACK WIDOW SPIDERS HATCHING...THEY'RE COMING FOR YOU!!!
This wasn't just plain terrible, this was fancy terrible. This was terrible with raisins in it. - Dorothy Parker
I'm not arguing with you, but the situation isn't much different in thailand, with word separation algorithms and display problems, and definitely less than ten percent of the population having computers.
New Thai users need support from friends and books. While these are available for Linux, the impression is that they aren't, and that the person they know who will help them learn to use the thing knows about Windows. It's a catch-22 situation.
Put identity in the browser.
TTSIA
... is that there are more Macs are running pirate copies of Windows than there are running OS X.
these machines aren't being used to run linux in most cases. It means Linux isn't making as many Desktop converts as it seems/we'd like to see. This of course sucks. We're gonna need lots of regular joe linux users for when Microsoft starts trying to kill it with patents. Otherwise noone's gonna care (noone that matters, anyway), when that happens.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
run Windows as consulting company Gardener & Co. wrote. In the long run up 100% of iMacs will end up with Windows installed.
Basically, they are saying that if you buy a machine preinstalled with linux, there is a 40% chance you are a criminal.
I would think that some enterprising land shark out there might just want to start a class action libel suit about that statement, against gartner and cnet, if such a suit is even possible.
Couldnt the argument go something like, "such an article could indeed make such individuals feel persecuted by the law in the future with out cause, possibly even seeking councle that they wouldnt even need otherwise?"
Again IANAL and Im just speculating.
(Have not read the study)
If I purchased an older PC with XP pre-installed, then bought a Linux box two years later and installed the XP license I bought with the first PC two years ago and formetted the orginal PC's hard drive, then does that count as a pirated PC?
I have purchased two computers off eBay as upgrades, used the same Windows98 license and CD on them, and formatted the old computer and donated it. Does this make me a software pirate and if so, do I get an eye patch?
I only came here to do two things; kick some ass, and drink some beer...looks like we're almost out of beer.
100% of all statistics are use to prove the point your are trying to make. Over 50% of the time the point is pure 100% (BS)
I wish I was clever!
Stuff is marketed all the time as "you've got to have this now"
For CD's and DVD's its always "The new release of is due today. Get your copy before they're gone!!!!"
And then we turn around and say to people, you don't have to have everything right now, wait a bit until you can afford it.
so they're trying to paint linux as an infringement device...
Wait and see, the clampdown on opensource is coming. Think of how much money it's taking from the pockets of corporations, and corporations own the US government.
Intolerance for ambiguity is the mark of the authoritarian personality.
Hum. Have 5 Linux servers ((4) Slackware 10.0 and 1 9.1) sitting here in my computer room. All came with XP and none can be moved to another computer in the building, and Microsoft expects me to believe that there getting robbed... by those darn pirats... whatever.....
and they wounder why ther customer base is getting pissed at them and moving elsewhere..
yep. they've opened a large can o' worms with this BS. more MS BS/FUD. more along, move along. next story please.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
Thankfully I'm not locked into any Windows apps, and have never been. :-)
I run Mac OS X and have always used a Mac, or previously, Amigas and Commodores. While a lot of people let the Mac "zealot" crowd ruin the opportunity to give Apple's OS X platform a chance (way too fanatical), it is a sad state of affairs. I find that most people with an open mind see the value in a stable, secure OS that can run commercially viable software. That is OS X. OS X has a GUI that is comprehensible and maintainable by an average computer user. Linux is not. Linux is for people who like screwing with their computers. I'm not slamming that-- I'm just saying that's not John Q. Public. I love fiddling with my Mac, too.
"Politicians find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the people."
What this would do is allow us to educate people about the cultural tradeoff involved in copyright.
Right now there is no quid quo pro. We give essentially unlimited copyrights to many classes of products (when Windows 95 lapses into the public domain, will there be no computers around that can run it), so what is given to *us* in exchange?
If we listen to Microsoft, Disney, et. al, they argue that the fact that they become insanely wealthy off this deal gives them the resources necessary to do more of it. In reality, I am not so sure. What results is a system where software monopolies prevail and innovation stagnates.
I think that two things should be necessary for software to be protected under copyright-- that the source code be escrowed with the LOC so that when it lapses into the public domain, we can read it and learn from it, and that the term of copyright be sufficiently limited to allow the software still to be useful when it becomes part of the public domain.
Otherwise, we are simply giving up the free market.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Wired magazine had an article about a year ago that said that Microsoft's huge marketshare in China was due to the fact that almost all of the installs were done from pirated software. So Microsoft walks a thin line between market share and revenue. As soon as Microsoft went to China to try to collect, China said "screw you Bill" and developed their own Linux distro!
On all the new PCs I have ever bought over the years, some windows flavour had been pre-installed. In more than half of the cases, it was reformatted and promptly replaced by a Linux flavour.
;-)
Thus: if pre-installed desktop linux pc's are treatening for MS-sales and encouraging windows piracy, is the opposite not true and can it therefore not be concluded that pre-installed desktop windows pc's are treatening to linux and encouraging linux piracy?
no, actually following your (and also TFA authors') logic, we may conclude, that selling PC's w/ pre-installed Windows, is threathening to MicroSoft market share...
because, the more you buy PC's with pre-installed Windows, the more you end up with desktops running linux
and now seriously: what i said above would be true in my case, and also in parent' case (as i see no point in having many windows desktops)
If you want to run Windows, and you live in a place where the cost of a PC with Windows installed is greater than the cost of a PC with Linux installed plus the cost of a pirated copy of Windows, it makes sense to buy the Linux PC and install your pirated Windows.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Those pirating DVDs are an incredibly majority.
Obviously from the context, I meant minority.
What?
What this would do is allow us to educate people about the cultural tradeoff involved in copyright.
You got it exactly. Thanks for responding so I don't have to.
I think that two things should be necessary for software to be protected under copyright-- that the source code be escrowed with the LOC so that when it lapses into the public domain
Exactly. This is the wackiest thing about copyright as it's currently applied to software... we as a society spend a lot of money to protect and maintain copyrights on stuff that will *never* see the light of day... Of course, terms are so long that the software will be utterly irrelevant by the time the copyright expires (and that's assuming they don't just get extended repeatedly) but the point still is that companies can get copyright protection *and* keep their code secret. That completely destroys the theory underlying copyright law.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
I recently got an HP zd7000 for work and occasional gaming. Since the only GPU that works(with Linux) really well for newer games is NVIDIA Geforce, the zd7000 was pretty much the only thing I could find that was suitable for me. Of course, getting it without 'doze was not an option.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
even if the figure was more like 90%, who cares? it doesn't change the fact that forcing Windows to be bundled and not giving the customer or the seller the choice is anti-competitive and monopolistic. Microsoft simply has to deal with software piracy like _every_ other commercial software company. Why should they get special treatment? If they didn't have this monopoly in the first place they might not have reached the same position. It just doesn't work when corporations are allowed to abuse market power and use bully tactics, that's not what capitalism is about. I think..
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Appears to me that the Gartner Group got bought out under the table, and now will be used to propagate incorrect facts to the 'masses', influencing everything from marketing to legislation.
What is next, a report from them on 'pirate-2-pirate'.
Truth often gets lost when the other side has control of the media/marketing machine.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Spin city. In essence Linux has wiped out 60% of MS' "problem" with pirate Windows in a market segment and may eliminate 80-95% of it without legal "corrections". MS are bunch of wimps if they can't handle the remaining 5%-20% and certainly have no legit claim to further perverting the legal structures of the world!
What is bullshit about the "on the specific machine sold/purchased" bit is this:
-- you don't see the auto manufacturers restricting what rims and hubs, radios, windows, or seats you can use in your car.
Period. Nevermind that a car cannot be driven to multiple places by multiple persons simultanesouly.
If I want to tweak my box, change the hardware, the mobo, or anything else, I can do it anytime and as frequently as I wish. Modders or tweakers should not have to become scofflaws just to bypass ms' shitty business model. That disk, by the time the consumer gets it, is worth less than a penny, for the number of times the software has been copied over and sold vastly outstrips the R&D put into it. Obviously, a hammer cannot be duplicated from the same source -- each copy uses raw materials. But a disk is a disk -- the contents on it are images that aren't matter at our level of interaction.
Besides, as much crap as many installers and users go through, microshaft (lower-casing/deprecation of microsoft's name intentional/perpetual with me) should be paying USERS to use their shit.
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
...everyone knows that you don't click on "I Accept" for Windows' EULA.
You press the magic "I reserve none of my rights" key, known to you Linux types as "F8".
So what happens when the HD dies? I guess this is how MS will be selling a new version of XP to the same customer every few years.
I'd argue that "free" as in price is the major selling point of linux because hardly any computer-newbie ever starts with linux. Average joe will not use linux because he can't afford windows. It's way easier to pirate a copy of windows than to sit down and learn linux.
;-)
It's rather the "power users" who eventually become curious about what this "linux-thing" is all about and who've probably been annoyed one too many times by wintendo screwing up for no apparent reason.
I bet anyone who considers themselves a power user can tell a little story about an install of windows that just "stopped working" one day. Be it after installing some piece of software, a driver, or just out of the blue for no apparent reason.
I've had my share of that and eventually I was sick of doing the re-install every couple months without even knowing what exactly went south this time.
Maybe it's all better nowadays, though. I've seen a recent copy of windows that had "Repair"-buttons all over the place...
That's all nice and sad to learn that... But honestly, how many more people out there switch from windows to linux and never buy it pre-installed on the computer? And how many build their own boxes from scratch to put linux on it? I am one, and I know several that are. I used to have an illegit copy of windows, but when I realized I could use linux without the scare of being sued, guess what? The CD went straight in the trash never to be recovered. I honestly think that if you're going to do something, might as well do it right. Either you use linux and don't pay, either you use windows and you pay for the license. Or at least that's how I see it.
---- I am certain of only one thing : I know nothing else.
fast custom cars are just used to run into slower stock cars
If we listen to Microsoft, Disney, et. al, they argue that the fact that they become insanely wealthy off this deal gives them the resources necessary to do more of it. In reality, I am not so sure. What results is a system where software monopolies prevail and innovation stagnates.
Or... the alternate is that companies that develop and sell software as their product can't make money they can't survive so being a programmer means you either do it for free or do it as an IT type job customizing or writing stuff for in-house usage for the company you work for. Since in-house work won't typically be development, it'll be more customization and even then it won't necessarily be released to the world, little new development will take place and innovation will be stifled because people won't be able to devote as much time directly to innovating new things. They'll be stuck hammering out bumps in old things most of the time.
The idea of incompatibility is a horrible idea. You want to do the same thing Microsoft wants in reverse. I think most people want the freedom of choice. It's my hardware and I'll put on it whatever I want.
Also I would tell people to buy the Linux version and an OEM copy of XP if the manufacturer only gives you a restore cd, and you need/want Windows.
Buying a linux machine and installing windows is like buying a Ferrari and converting it into a jalopy. I'm sure nobody has EVER installed a pirated version of windows on a pc they bought WITH windows. Seems to me that this is in the mudslinging spirit of election time... Lets try to act like adults here mister doo-doo head poopy-pants.
Giveing you the benefit of the doubt, the tiny little place next door to my office in Buttfuck Alberta, Canada for one. Seriously, if you can get one here, you can get one anywhere (they're limited to only a couple of basic mobos and they'll try and make you get windows, but you can usually bargain them out of it by upgrading something else).
For online, you'd probably get exactly what you want by customizing one from these guys which also include several versions of windows and "no OS" as purchase options. Try the ads from google!
The key difference between a Programmer and a Senior Programmer is that one of them is Mexican.
Are you refering only to the anti-Bush terrorists?
"Basically Apple is telling us if your eMac's motherboard breaks, sell the entire broken eMac on ebay for $30-200 and buy a brand new one with updated software, videocard and more ram. You'll save yourself a ton of money. (just the labor costs alone on installing a new logic board has got to be over $150)"
Er, great?
I bought this book and now it's torn. I'd like a replacement for pages 50-73.
Well, we could take all the pages out of that, sell you individually printed pages, and rebind the whole thing, but it's horribly expensive for us to do that. We'll have to charge you twice the price of the book itself. Why don't you just buy a new book?
This is the way the market works when you've commoditized your product. Apples come in *models*, so it's vastly cheaper for them to just hand you a new model, fully assembled, than to support an entire replacement part industry. That isn't apple's fault, exactly. It comes from a 5% market share.
The PC market is large enough that you can count on someone, somewhere making replacement parts anyway. Companies have tried this with Apple but the market just isn't there. Macs generally run just fine for ten years and then either die or get traded.
Buying a Mac is just like buying a BMW. You buy it, use it for a long time with very little maintenance, and then sell it to an enthusiast at a surprisingly high price to fund your next purchase.
I guess this would make up for all the people having to by PCs with Windows preinstalled and formatting over with a free OS.
:wq
Supposedly, in China, there is a saying: "Retribution knows its own time." Well, like God being an "absentee landlord", Retribution, is taking her sweet time with microshaft.
Well, dammit, I hope Retribution knows when to strike microshaft (lower-casing/deprecation of microsoft's name intentional/perpetual with me) right across its scaly, encrusted, misshapen, uncouthly-wielded frenulum.
Retribution, a suggestion if I might:
If Mount St. Helens blows her top again, ask her to BURY that nexus of an abject, abfarad abattoir of a campus. They've been getting away with TOO MUCH SHIT, and the time is NOW for retribution to show her face. The company is a huge, legal racket and extorter, and their behavior is proof enough, not to mention a FUD factory. PLEASE, Retribution, PLEASE, do the masses a favor!
Burying mshaft might also bury their stocks if they can't resiliently recover. I bet NONE of their fields offices act as mirrors for the main campus, meaning they'd effectively look as if they had no working backups to fall back on after a disaster.
Anybody care for a digital seance? OTOH, summoning evil sprits, umm spirits, might backfire. I hope Karma or the spirits are keeping tabs on msoft, because by NO means can that company be free of guilt, period.
Ju-On, have you a grudge, a reason to pay ms a visit? http://www.juonthegrudge.com/
(turn your speakers up so you can hear the intro... ) Click on "media" to get some images of the spirit...
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Sounds to me there is a real need that the Open Source community is not addressing
Such a report would be inherently flawed. Since so many machines ship with Microsoft's windowing system, even a large migration to linux will register in the single digits. A much smaller number of people buying linux machines to install Microsoft's windowing system will make up a large percentage of linux sales, since the base is so much smaller.
A better statistic would be a comparison of the absolute number of machines switching one way or the other. This would probably be in favor of Linux, at least in developed countries.
m$ can cry as much as they want about windows piracy still they made the xbox without any *real* protection against piracy, probably to sell of more of it and enter competition with sony and nintendo.
one thing to sure be, they dont give a shit about game editors.
Of course not. Why on earth would you say that? I don't know where to get a laptop, with no OS, that suits my needs, and that makes me a troll? I really don't follow that logic at all. But anyway...
I looked at the links given by you folks who responded, and not at a single one was I able to configure a no-OS laptop with an NVIDIA GPU with at least 128MB video memory. As I said, very limited options. Meh, my laptop came with a real Windows XP cd, so I may find a use for it.
Cheers.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Or... the alternate is that companies that develop and sell software as their product can't make money they can't survive so being a programmer means you either do it for free or do it as an IT type job customizing or writing stuff for in-house usage for the company you work for. Since in-house work won't typically be development, it'll be more customization and even then it won't necessarily be released to the world, little new development will take place and innovation will be stifled because people won't be able to devote as much time directly to innovating new things. They'll be stuck hammering out bumps in old things most of the time.
What was the market for Windows 95 in 2002? I say close to 0.
What In 2000 what was Microsoft's profit margin on each copy of windows sold? Close to 40%.
My argument isn't that everyone can copy Windows 95 in 2002, but rather that different competitors can use eachothers' work after it has been written for a short time thereby stimulating competition.
Having free and open access to the Windows 95 source code in 2002 would not provide customers with a viable substitute for Windows XP, 2000, or ME, but it would be a huge bonus for others, such as the WINE project.
Look-- copyright isn't something we give so that people can make a quick buck. It is a government-established right to monopoly power (i.e. exemption from the free market) for a supposedly limited time in order to reward creative contributions to our culture. Software is different, and copyright functions as a sort of "limited but indefinite patent" in providing a essentially indefinite set of rights to a product but not extending that to other implimentations.
You seem to be arguing that the money that Microsoft makes constitutes the quid quo pro that copyright law is supposed to create. I don't think so. IANAL, but I have some doubts whether the current regime of copyrights are constitutional when extended to software (regarding the limited times clause).
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
When one pulls statistics out of ones arsehole it make the lies look more platable.
now I have 0 with windows, same 5 pc's, who's taking that type into account?
I dont' understand why Microsoft wastes time pushing Windows when it's Office which is what really locks people in.
Office is the MS cash cow and if they wanted to expand their sales they'd just port it to Unix/Linux or at least supply a version with really good emulation under it, a la Wine.
Then they wouldn't need to worry about how much market share Windows had and could concentrate on their real money maker.
"Terminate?"
"Terminate... with extreme prejudice"
Once I was making a joke about Gnome (a french one, Mennen [shaving cream] pour nous les gnomes [original advert says pour nous les hommes {men in french}]) and my wife goes hey Gnome that's the name of my desktop at work.
"You use Linux at work?!?", I was really surprise, my wife was working as a consultant for Indonesia Ministry of Coop and Small Business and for Ministry of Industry and Trade; she was telling me that everyone in government is using Linux.
When I told this story to my expat collegue Marek from Poland, he told me it is the same in Poland.
I wish I wrote an article about this at the time (2001) maybe we would not see major FUD/BS from Gartner and other lame IDC.
I think Linux users should sue Gartner for libel!
Are they THAT dumb to actually think, a so called "Windows Desktop PC" was made to ONLY run Windows? Do they actually think a so called "Linux Desktop PC" was only made to ONLY run Linux?
It's x86 architecture! x86 based PC's are designed to run any x86 compatible OS and/or software.
I wonder how much Microsoft paid the Gartner Group to give out this HIGHLY BIASED "report"?
Phony reports such as the one Gartner Group has given really piss me off.
And x% of people with old, crappy winME boxen get their techie friend to install XP for an, uhh, extremely "discounted" rate.
When you look at the state of the world, how can you not become a radical, liberal anarchist?
No, just read the license. It was illegal for whoever sold you the computer to sell it to you with an existing copy of Windows on it.
Inducing piracy makes selling a Linux PC illegal. Another day, another instance of Copyright trumps 1st Amendment. I must have misread that 'Congress shall make no law' part :-/
If people using GNU/Linux want to play video games designed for a Microsoft platform, they know where to find it.
Next Story: Microsoft pays lapdogs in Senate and Congress to pass INDUCE Act, making OEM Linux PCs illegal.
Have you tried places like this one?
http://www.xtremenotebooks.com/
You can get an Athlon 64 3700+ with 2GB of memory, a 128MB Radeon 9700 Pro and 15.4" display for $1800. No OS.
If you need web hosting, you could do worse than here
A BIOS just for Linux? Hey, it could happen.
Do you really think Microsoft would stand to lose that much if Kernel.dll were cleaned up and open-sourced?
Darwin is open-sourced, but most Mac users never touch it, and those who do will find a HUGE amount of separation between Darwin and the GUI. The rest of the OS is closed.
I like OSX, but I like Linux better, and I hate the hardware restrictions. AFAIK, you cannot build your own Mac that's compatible with one you buy from Apple. You cannot run any Mac OS on anything other than a Mac or an emulator. You cannot buy a Mac without a version of Mac OS preinstalled -- from what I've heard, the ones which come with YDL cost exactly as much as if they'd come preloaded with dual-boot YDL and OSX. Which means that yes, you can buy a Mac without an OS, if you hire someone else to remove it for you.
The most open platform, OTOH, is a custom PC. It's likely cheaper than a comparable Mac, and you can put whatever OS you want on it. You also get to choose the cheapest hardware you can find, whereas there is NO competition with Mac hardware.
Plus, on such a PC, even if you install Windows, you're a bit better off, because there was some competition with the hardware -- not to mention applications.
If Apple was really as dedicated to F/OSS as Darwin wants us to believe, they would port OSX to other architectures and actively participate in portability efforts -- things like Darwine (Windows programs on OSX on PPC) and porting their own "compatibility mode" to Linux and others.
Apple makes good stuff, and they would be HUGE if they sold it properly -- in a way which allows you to buy the apple whole or in slices. I want to be able to run Aqua on top of Linux on a PC. I want to be able to build a custom Mac from pieces from different vendors. I want to be able to run Safari on Gnome on Darwin on PPC, or Fluxbox with Aqua's dock. That might make me switch.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
And 100% of Windows PCs are being used to run a pireted copy of Mac OS. Gates and company never inventaed any OS. Dos was essentially stolen, considering what they paid the programmer who really wrote it, and windows was a rip-off of mac.
How ya like dat?
I take it back. This must be the first example of a bait-and-switch that the victim pulls on himself. Buying a product as advertised, then voluntarily lowering its value immediately after purchase by wiping Linux and installing pirate Windows.
I do have to admit that some pre-installed Linux vendors do a pretty poor job of pre-installing Linux. My Dad bought one which didn't have a working modem or sound card, and had only very low resolution graphics. It came with a disk of windows drivers for its non-standard included hardware. You can't tell me that the vendor really expected anyone to keep Linux on that machine.
I find that sad because the open nature of Linux makes it possible for OEMs to relatively easily make an uber-customized distribution just for the computers they sell, in a way that isn't technically or financially possible with Windows. I honestly don't think that Linux will ever be accepted by the average Joe until most major OEMs really start making an effort to make it attractive right out of the box. I would pay extra, for example, for a Dell Linux Distribution and security updates that I knew had been thoroughly optimized, tested and pre-installed on my specific model of Dell computer compared to the same computer with the latest version of Red Hat (or worse, something like ThizLinux) slapped on it and forgotten.
This space intentionally left blank.
40% of desktop machines sold with Linux on them are being used to run pirate copies of Windows!
I'd be willing to bet that 40% of ALL desktop machines are being used to run pirate copies of Windows. So while this little fact may or may not be true, it certainly isn't news but it is pretty misleading. Way to go, Gartner!
I live in Australia. My local store doesn't force you to buy windows at all, and sells notebooks without windows as well. You have to buy a seperate OEM windows version that costs $165 and is freely installed (the last time I checked).
Actually I probably shouldn't have given you a link - it quotes the prices on the website including WinXP. If you go to the actual store to buy a computer then they explicitly ask "Do you want Windows with it?"
I have four PC's at present. They all shipped with some form of MS product on them.
... depends what I am trying out at the time. I havea multitude of OS's to run on it).
:-)]
My latest runs XP.
My previous ran NT, but I changed to RedHat Linux 9.
The previous one to that ran NT too, but now runs whatever I chuck on there (sometimes Mandrake, sometimes other free distros
The oldest machine runs Win98.
The Intel machines I owned before this either came with Win3.0, Win NT, or MS DOS, and all at some time were removed to run Red Hat in some shape or form.
So, 50% of my machines have had MS OS's replaced with other OS's. And 100% of my previous Intel machines all had MS OS's removed to run something else. I bet the report doesn't take that into account. It's very biased into thinking everyone wants MS OS's and doesn't take into account that some of us swapped out MS products to run Linux or other OS's. I am not the only person I know who has done this either.
The only two machines I ever bought which didn't come with MS OS's on them, were my old Vic20 and Commodore64. [Which might show my age!
Nani-mo hoshii mono-ga nai.
Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)
You know, like e.g. server stats, browser stats, surveys and various other tests to see the actual distribution. If Linux ships on a bunch of PCs, but the machines don't show up *anywhere*, where did they go? All of them can't be back-end servers with no public access, and if they were, they'd mostly be in corporations where they would be counted in surveys.
It is an undeniable fact that most people pirate Windows. If you look at it from a pirate's perspective, they want a machine without paying for the OS. They are indifferent to a machine with Linux and no OS. From a business and logistics PoV, it is easier to ship one type of machines - Linux machines. It makes both your target markets happy, and is easier all around.
That makes it both rational, and well supportable by facts. I haven't read the report, so I can't comment on their methodology, but if you think you have to guess to find the answer, you're wrong.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I switched to linux just out of curiosity.
But I think you're right. Although it's a different story for business and governments. I'm not sure what their primary motivations are.
I'm managing to get open office installed at work.
Studies shows that 60% of PC coming without Linux uses pirate copies of Windows.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
That is all.
Blar.
- Protect the Citizens of his Country
- Further the Legitimate Interests of his Country
- Conduct Expansionist Activities
- Encourage Other Countries to Adopt Policies Favorible to his Country.
Now when an organization does this behind closed doors, or not within certain guidelines it is considered terrorism. When countries do it openly it is called Diplomacy.That which is done from love exists beyond good and evil
Just so you know, nvidia doesn't really sell mobile chips to "custom builders" as they see their market as large OEMs only.
Your best bet might be to find a custom builder who activly supports linux on some models with an ati or intel chipset, or suck up the price and buy something proprietary with windows on it, and convert it to linux yourself.
Best.
The key difference between a Programmer and a Senior Programmer is that one of them is Mexican.
> The difference seems to lie in the fact that software naturally ...
> comes in a form that can be copied and a book has to be converted
> from physical to electronic
IMO another much more important difference is that software is expected to perform some functions for you, much like an appliance, so you expect it to work, and if broken you expect it to be repaired or replaced. It seems to me that one things that licencing schemes try to do for the vendors is exempt them from this responsibility. Somehow they get away with selling things that we expect to do some functions for us (as advertised) and they don't have the responsibilities because "they are authors, or copyright owners, not manufacturers or suppliers of goods".
> Natural material goods, like lettuce: Copying is impossible, but legal ...
Actually, copying is possible, and this is how they are produced. Farmers produce them by making copies in their fields, a rather costly method!
GArTnEr has 4 out of 5 letters of gates' surname name?
Hmmm, let's see... I wonder how much they get paid by the letter to be as close to one as possible with gates. O.....
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Since I bought a Mac with OS/X which is NOT Windows. It stands to reason that I must be running illegal copies of Windows on it instead of OS/X. I mean if Gartner "pay us and we'll say what you want" analysts say so...it must be true.