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Major Retailer Chooses Linux for its Tills
An anonymous reader writes "ZDNet is running an article on how Matalan has installed several thousand point of sale terminals running Linux rather than Windows. The reason? Reduced cost of ownership. It was a big consultancy that did the work, Capgemini, and IBM on the kit side. Sounds like some people can get Linux to work in an 'enterprise environment' after all."
I work as a cashier at a grocery store, and they run MS XP Embedded. We have at least 1 till crash at least once a day. Causing major headaches, I wish we had them running on Linux...
Hehe. MSFT is going to be pretty unhappy with Capgemini.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Okay, maybe I'm a technological ignoramus, but when the guy in the article talks about IBM being able "to connect onto the till remotely and go onto the BIOS" I am a bit puzzled.
Is this possible with a normal PC motherboard? Or are they using some different type of system which provides hooks for the OS to do this?
I really think POS is an important step for Linux acceptance. The beauty of Linux, of corse, is that it can run on an AS/400 or a wristwatch; and everything inbetween. I cringe when I see POS machines just running a terminal within Windows; think of what they are paying just to have telnet to a main system! While I, and most good geeks, run nothing but Linux for desktops, it'll take time to get them past the exec level; but for POS it's all about the bottom line, and no one will be able to beat Linux in that field. I think that will be the tipping point, but feel it's still ~3 years off.
fak3r.com
Well, handling numbers and some graphics is a no-brainer. But sure, it's nice to see Linux making inroads to the corporations. I would be very impressed if they turned around a big organization like the government into using Linux as it's OS of choice.
Reality test... am I dreaming?
How long has slashdot been around anyway? These stories were there in the first 2 years of slashdot.
Think!
Think Deeply.
Linux will never as much of a POS as Windows!
A Piece O'...
Than windows!!! But, to take a brief look on the other side maybe it will help some people finally get a job and out of there mom's basement. So maybe giving linux a chance will help those people who are stuck in a world of chronic masturbation and jolt cola.
Matalan stock goes up 1.75 points.
Microsoft swears by it's "independent" studies that windows is better, faster, cheaper!
And besides, what about licencing? You absolutely have to have that!
OMFG! And I almost forgot, you actually OWN your installed copy of linux, as opposed to MSWXP! Why, why would you actually want to OWN the software you pay money for? Are you crazy?
Up is down! Down is up! The world doesn't make any sense anymore!
A couple fans told me that my last journal entry was mint; give it a shot. Hope you like.
Point of Sale systems are really not enterprise level software or whatever. Usually the simpler it is it the better. Using linux for Point of Sale systems are just a good idea, first you can make linux very basic without the crap. Having it in a small factor allowing it to run on cheap systems, without the extra junk in the way. But to say this proves the linux is enterprise ready because of these is just silly. Most Point of Sales systems are running on DOS.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
There are two other major chains I know of using Linux in their POS - burlington coat factory (I think most people knew about that) and Valvoline oil change places. I noticed the Valvoline place I went to last year using some console app, but was just booting up and he logged in to a RedHat 6.2 system. I'm sure there are others - I don't often bother to look, but it's nice to see all the same. Who knows of others openly using Linux as POS?
creation science book
Of course the fact that IBM was involved in the consultancy had nothing to do with the matter, right?
IBM is only interested in selling its product, guess what their product entails.
Linux is a wonderful solution, but make no mistake about why it was probably recommended in the first place.
As I post this from an installation of Suse 10 RC1, I know that GNU/Linux is an operating system that can be used in place of Windows or Mac OS X. It does something better. It does somethings worse.
Articles like this might be important to show some people, but I feel like the Slashdot crowd should be beyond this. Slashdot readers should know that GNU/Linux is a great operating system. They should also know that it isn't the be all and end all of software (I'm DEFINITELY not saying that Windows is).
For me, this article says stupid things like "abstraction is bad". Abstraction is good most of the time, but it criticizes Windows for it. Really, it should have said that Windows doesn't offer you an alternative to their abstraction and we wanted to hack some code that would communicate right with the BIOS and Linux allowed us to do that because with free software the attitude isn't 'my way or the highway'. I really wish that the article talked about how, because GNU/Linux is a loose association of tools rather than a monolithic package, one can pick and choose which tools to include for an application like a cash register without all the crap you don't need. That's especially important for the embedded space (and something that isn't important for most/all desktop users) and something that GNU/Linux allows that Windows doesn't. That's something to point out.
I work for an electronics company in the UK called Maplin.
They allready use Fedora for all their equipment.
Thunderbird for e-mail and firefox for web browser.
Our company has also switched to Linux on both servers and desktops recently. We are already saving thousands of dollars and it was probably the best decision the board has ever made. Instead of constant virus and service call hell we went to virtually zero problems and everyone loves it.
Seems like the fact that the POS program was written in Java made this possible. But that would mean I made a positive comment about Java on Slashdot. Wait, who is that knocking on the my door...
I thought you said "MAJOR" retailer.
Categorize this garbage as "MEH".
Thank you, please drive through.
I hate to bring down the buzz, but POS teriminals are not the kind of system that you want someone running solitare on. These are single function terminals that are high profile, and like your DVD player or microwave oven, they just have to work, every time, every day, or things get messy.
These types of applications are more suited for embedded closed RTOS software than for any desktop OS. ARM and some of the variants of it support encryption and secure operations, and can easily support the functions required for POS terminals. This would make much more sense than Linux, even if the Linux was stripped down and tuned for security and RT operations. (well, thinking of it, Embedded RTLinux setup might be a good thing too, but desktop Linux distros just are not the thing for this) The article does a good job of explaining why they chose not to use XP embedded.
Think about it, most POS systems just don't have room for a hard drive, so really need to be small and use embedded software, loaded from ROM or FLASH. And Yes, these types of terminals need, and typically do have, remote access functionality. Not often used, but its there, even in those credit card swipe machines. The thing is that its an embedded OS and software, so just is not threatened by hackers and such. That is how it should be. Keeping the OS/applications closed and secure is just one of those "job 1" things for the POS industry.
Seeing a terminal in the local pub running Windows of any kind just makes me cringe! A Treo is capable enough to do the job, just doesn't come with the big fancy touch screen.
Good to see Linux making headway, but worries me none the less that such systems are now becoming off the self, and open to hackers... yikes, well it seems that way with this article.
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We run DOS.
"When the atomic bomb goes off there's devastation...but when the atomic bong goes off there's celebraaaaation!"
Did anyone else read this as " Major Retailer Chooses Linux for its Thrills" at first?
;)
Linux turns me on too...
I got nothin'
Since everybody else is posting the os's of POS systems and there backends, I can't think of a more appropriate place to post the ones I know of(which is only one for myself).
s eStudy.asp?CaseStudyID=17131
RadioShack:
POS: Windows XP Embedded
Backend: SCO Unix (I believe its version 5, I might be mistaken).
In fact Microsoft has posted a story on how RadioShack supposedly saved millions of dollars by using windows. I can say personally that is far from the case and Linux would of been the better choice.
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/casestudies/Ca
Insert Witty Remark Here ===>____________________________
At the risk of sounding like a troll, who's Matalan? I've never heard of them before.
When I see the POS acronym, and when someone mentions a POS system, my very first thought is to image a system that is literally a piece of $#!+ I know what POS is supposed to mean here. Really, I do.
READY.
PRINT ""+-0
If you owned it, then you could modify it, distribute it, and not release the source code.
the local lowe's uses linux. i'm curious as to why people who support linux and 'free information' type ideas are so happy to have big time corporations taking advantage of the free software? i can't imagine lowe's being a big participant in sourceforge, or any other free software movement. isn't use versus participation a big deal? simply having a humongous stale userbase only has so many benefits.
No you don't own it.
You're licensed it, you can do lots of stuff with and to it and redistribute it however you're still not the copyright holder, unless of course you mean a part you rewrote.
It may be open and free and distributable, but you don'w OWN it.
A copyright holder still OWNS the rights to a document even if they give you rights to make a copy or a change.
At one of the local grocery stores- I'm not sure if it was Harris Teeter or Lowes, probably the latter- I looked at the sales terminal, with a shiny little LCD display, and I realized that it *had* to be running some sort of X-Windows - you just don't get widgets like that in the top-left of your windows under Windows (even 3.11) or Mac. I don't know if it was running Linux, but it would not surprise me.
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
What you might be missing is the backend that these systems integrate with. The deployment and management infrastructure in place. No it isn't the kind of massive backend type enterprise deployments you like to hear about, but it is still a good win for Linux. If Linux performs well on all of the tills it makes it easier for that company to integrate more Linux boxes everywhere.
Jeremy
Go to Lowes and you'll see a KDE based desktop.
has the lower cost of 0wnership!
Nobody's gay for Mole-Man.
I work for a small retailer, and we use windows running the Wasp POS system. It comes with a cash drawer, bar code scanner, and recipt printer. Our owner, as well as me, would love to switch to Linux (like to try tuxPOS), but we have no idea if the hardware would work with little puttsing with it, as we can afford NO downtime.
On a side note, our system just crashed last week, and with it, our admiration for windows waxes.
Home hardware stores have used a linux-based POS and inventory control system for at least the last 2 years- and I believe for much longer (2 years ago was the first time I noted the terminals were running Linux, but it looked like they had been that way for a while) If you want to talk about a really LARGE company using Linux for server systems- RadioShack has used SCO Linux (yes, I know, I know) for at minimum the last decade, in all of their 5200+ company owned stores. UNFORTUNATELY they've just started phasing their POS server and inventory system to a program running on Windows Server, so they can reduce backroom equipment from 2 computers to 1, and further automation between website and POS system. Id've rather stuck to the dual-computer system, because now when the webserver goes down, I get to write hand tickets.
even better:
/dev/printer
echo ^g >
most of your cash drawers are connected to receipt printers that when they get the bell command, send the signal to kick open the till.
IBM is only interested in selling its product, guess what their product entails.
AIX? OS/2?
Seriously, IBM has *LOTS* of products. Linux is just one of many.
When someone says "POS" the first thing I think of is Windows.
Ooooohhh, you must mean Point Of Sale. Never mind, then...
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Speaking from the perspective of someone who worked at an acme two summers ago back in high school I can tell you that this is a blessing. Most people will tell you dos is stable, most people who have worked on dos extensively will tell you this, most people who will tell you this havn't really used dos for anything more than reformatting in the last 7 years. We ran dos on all of our machines our software booted up on top of that, despite generally working at nights I got to see this event daily because our systems went down at least once a week. We never had a day where a single system didn't go down. Sometimes we'd be totally down for half an hour while our server spit fire. I got my hands on one of these machines once because the manager was fed up because he couldn't get it to reconnect to the server, in linux all I would have had to do was redefine the ethernet card, in dos I sat there for an hour and a half and cursed and screamed and kicked the thing because there was rather simply no way to do this, the system said it wasn't there, the bios said it was, we couldn't even try reinstalling the drivers if we had them cause the thing didn't have any sort of disk drive.
I'm no windows hater, I like games those require windows. But anyone running an office app, server, or POS with/on windows should be shot.
Its a shame more companies don't do that kind of research before making a decision. Most would rather just listen to the nice salesman...
My
I used to work at a supermarket during high school. They had OS2/Warp on all the registers operated by the cashires. Then they had a couple self-scan registers which were running Windows 2000. The self-scan's would crash daily while the manual's would never go down except when the power went out (which happened a couple of times during the year and a half that I worked there). OS2/Warp is just about dead these days, so its good to know IBM is still carrying on in the POS (Point of Sale) business with a quality OS.
The other day I went into a different supermarket and saw a cash register which had the message "Powered by Microsoft Windows NT" on the bottom of the screen. It made me cringe.
First cash registers then... THE WORLD.
MWAHAHAHAHAHA [maniacal laughter]
"Both Windows and Linux met the security requirements set by Matalan, but Linux was preferred by the retailer as it was less of a target for malicious code, according to Menzel."
And the Till is connected to the Internet, why?
Matalan happens to be a major retailer in the United Kingdom.
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
That would be a cash register
US of Americans seriously don't use that word? Wow.
I actually read it as:
Major Retailer Chooses Linux for its Tits
I'm not sure where THAT came from (but I'm sure it has something to do with my porn habit).
Anyone know what POS computers Best Buy uses? I swear they crash every time I shop there.
There are a lot of pick based systems that have been moved to Linux relatively easily
Wow, must be 15 years since I've seen Pick. Didn't know it was still around.
"I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
While I don't wish to piss on anyone's parade here, Matalan are very much the Titanic of the generally begaled UK retail sector, we shouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that their choice of Linux was a particularly astute business move - they haven't shown much propensity for astuteness.
Of course I could be totally wrong about this, but from everyone I talked to while working there, I gathered that this was pretty much the norm.
It is amazing that when someone decides to use Linux it is front page news still. Are Linux deployments honestly that few and far between? We are not going to have to read about this company switching back to Windows 6 months from now are we?
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
You own Linux in the same way you can own lab rats with some nasty virulent disease. You're responsible for their care, but you can pretty much do anything to them that you could ever want to do: put 'em in a blender, squish 'em with fancy squishing machines, play table tennis with their heads, you know, whatever, so long as the SPCA dosen't find out, right?! But you can never, ever, put your special rat-jelly on your mother in law's English Muffin. That's a definite no-no. Understand?
So, yeah, you own it, in a way. Just not all the way. GPL is sorta' like the "third base" of ownership. Most of the perks without all the obligation.
Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
Besides, *BSD is superior to Linux when it comes to business/corporate-related needs :D :D
Seriously.. this is just a copy and paste job from the article... take a look at this guy's profile (and name for that matter) to see a list of the quality stuff he's written on slashdot.
However, He did change "In contrast, " to "though", but I don't think that constitutes a new and insightful thought.
Quoth the article:
Both Windows and Linux met the security requirements set by Matalan, but Linux was preferred by the retailer as it was less of a target for malicious code, according to Menzel. The evaluation began at the end of 2003 when the Blaster worm was wreaking havoc in companies. In contrast, there have been no serious outbreaks of Linux viruses in the wild, which gave the open source operating system a definite advantage in the eyes of Matalan executives, Menzel said.
She loves me: 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0 She loves me not: 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688BF
In Canada I know Future Shop/Best Buy both run on some flavor or *nix. I believe it is actually old Unix, but I could be mistaken.
More interestingly, http://www.miranda.com/product.php?i=123&l=1 Miranda switchers run Linux - from the looks of it Redhat, with that pretty gui you see in the picture based in KDE.
IBM actually doesn't make any money on Linux itself, that goes to Red Hat or Novell. They make money on services, which they provide for Linux and Windows, among many other products.
You own it in the same sense you own a book you purchase. There are some restrictions on your actions due to copyright law...but you own said book. With Linux, thanks to the GPL, most of those restrictions under copyright law...including the right to copy and redistribute....are done away with by agreement. The only requirement is that if you distribute it, you distribute all of it. But you still own it.
It was also a popular OS for vertial applications such as bank terminals. NationsBank grew from a tiny bank to the 6th largest bank (before they were bought by Bank of America) on a plan of aggressive acquisition. A large part of this strategy was their computer infrastructure. It was heavily based on OS/2: Each branch had a single centrally-administered OS/2 Workspace on Demand server. All computers in a branch would actually boot from the server (LTSP-style), with all of its applications ready to go. If the bank wanted to update their software, they could push these changes from a central point to each branch overnight (or over time), and schedule the switchover. The next day, everyone came in and was completely updated.
You can do the same with Linux (I already mentioned LTSP, but this was almost 10 years ago.
Like they say, what's old is new again.
Linux IT Consulting and Domino Development in Michigan
Security? Why not have the point of sale network separated from the main corporate network? Separate switches if you're small, vlans if you're big.
Linux is a great idea but it also seems similar to "I keep driving into trees in my car, so I bought an SUV."
I use Macs to up my productivity, so up yours Microsoft!
When were you last involved with a POS implementation at a retailer? Cause I did one a couple years ago, for a retailer, and the in-store systems that the client was putting in place were fairly complicated. The actual POS terminal itself is a fairly minor part of the whole in-store system. The work for things like inventory tracking and restocking (from suppliers), EOD and realtime sales numbers, even time card and other HR type functionality, is usually done on back office servers. Sadly, the article was thin on details about the particular system that was implemented, so the argument is largely speculative at the moment, but to say that POS systems aren't "enterprise" is just not true, particularly if the business sells product for a living.
So a system...used by enterprises....is not an enterprise system...
some do, some don't, so what, next!
Like Linux and Solaris? lsc.hsi-us.com is a solaris/linux comparator in process..
I love linux! I wish I had a major big organisation so I could deploy it all over, from the servers, through the desktops, to the devices. Wait, make that a government, I wish I were a head of a government so I could dictate that Linux would run on all its computers. I'm sure with linux the schools and public libraries would be alright. Once it's in the schools and libraries, people would get used to it, firefox and gaim are just fine, so are gimp and openoffice, and there'd be no reason for them to fear it in the workplace or at home.
Not true. You do NOT own the software under copyright law. You own the hardware and the disc the software is distributed on. All of the software you run is licensed from third parties, albeit under a very permissive license.
This is the same as with a book. You own the paper it is printed on, but the content is not yours, but you are using it with the copyright owner's permission. In-fact, that was a bad analogy on your part. The GPL is much less restrictive than normal copyright law under which the contents of a book are normally redistributed.
It doesn't matter whether you use software under the most restrictive license in the world or the most permissive, unless you write it yourself or have the copyright assigned to you, you don't own it.
This applies to BSD software too. Ownership of a piece of software implies ownership of the copyrights, which isn't, and couldn't be, granted with the GPL, or any other software license for that matter, since ownership has to be transfered through a contract, not a license.
Point of Sale systems are really not enterprise level software or whatever.
Crikey, first in the ssh story, now here.
If big businesses like Matalan rely on this software, then it is "enterprise-ready" by definition.
Seriously, "enterprise-ready" is a meaningless buzzword that is twisted to mean whatever the speaker wishes it to mean. When the proprietary ssh company was talking about openssh not being "enterprise-ready", they meant "apart from the fact that massive organisations like Cisco etc rely on it". When you are saying that thesse systems are not "enterprise-ready", you mean "apart from the fact that massive organisations like Matalan rely on it".
If there is any meaning whatsoever to the term "enterprise-ready", then these systems fit it. They cannot be simultaneously relied upon by enterprises like Cisco, Matalan, etc, and not be "enterprise-ready".
If you know linux, it's straightforward to set up linux, and MS-Wormholes is a right royal pain.
If you know MS-Wormware, it's straightforward to set up MS-Wormware, and linux is a right royal pain.
As Gomer Pyle used to say in the olden days: "Surprise, surprise!"
It reminds me of the 3 times I tried to do something with typo. Most of the internal links don't work. I gave up on typo and went with Xoops PNuke and Mambo. It would really be cool if you had an email form on your typo site, cause then I could have told you off-list. I really like PhishFighting.com. Glad somebody thought of it. Wolf Named Coward
Like Linux and Solaris? lsc.hsi-us.com is a solaris/linux comparator in process..
This switch from windows to linux for cash registers is lame, given that the major retailers still run:
- IBM point of sale terminals on vintage early 1980s hardware
- Character based dos or custom OS terminals
- Unknown, but definately not Windows based
Our local auto parts and tire stores run some 24 x 80 character mode application on a character terminal.
... no one has mentioned this:8 31241.shtml?tid=152&tid=37&tid=23&tid=2&tid=138&ti d=38
http://business.newsforge.com/business/04/08/10/1
Circuit City, the second largest electronics retailer in the nation, decided to switch all of their POS and back-end operations systems to Linux over a year ago. How about a permanent thread that can be just bumped back up every time a company moves some/all of its operations to Linux?
Otherwise it would just be a crash register... *ducks*
Until Linux drops the GPL I don't believe there will ever be a company or a group of individuals that are going to devote the resources required to make Linux a true complete contender on the desktop. The GPL doesn't allow for investors to recoup their money. Without a business model it's hard to break specific areas of Linux out from being someone's pet project to being a true complete addition.
.... " and "I helped my grandma setup her Linux machine, she loves it." Or even "There are several companies that have switched to Linux as their main desktops...."
You can reply to this and say, "Oh yeah, I've been running at home for
But the truth of the matter is, for the last 10 years Linux has been 5 years away from being a serious contender on the desktop. Seems kinda' bizarre, but it's true. In about 5 years Linux will be some what as complete as Windows or OSX is today, but the desktop is a moving target. As Linux nears the current target the others have moved well out in front.
There are several huge gaps in the Linux APIs for stuff such as heavy professional audio and video applications. I'm really excited for the switch for Apple from PPC to Intel. The reason for this is BSD is finally going to be getting the limelight it deserves. The BSD license allows for people to maintain their 'forks' of projects that they want to keep completely open while allowing incentives for people to try taking BSD in a totally different direction and allow them to recoup their investment.
The GPL model argues that projects are better if there are more eyes looking at everything. The proprietary model argues that that's all fine and dandy but you can't recoup an investment by giving things away for free. The BSD model allows for the people who want to remain open source may remain open source and the if someone wants to try a proprietary fork of something, go for it.
I would like to see a BSD fork of all the core Linux components and see what someone could make of it. Too bad this would be impossible to really allow happen.
The POS systems in the convenience store where I work runs Win2K (NCR machines running Retalix storepoint if anybody cares). Anyways, they use touchscreens which suck, but because of this they assume you won't have a keyboard hooked up to it. One night I grabbed a keyboard from one of the systems in the backroom and was able to do a quick Winkey+D to get to the desktop and have some fun, looking around all the systems on the network, figuring out how it all works together, playing minesweeper, etc.
Our Retalix system is a piece of shit, by the way, there are all kinds of bugs in it, mostly just annoyances, but a few of them are pretty bad (i.e. potentially allowing an employee to steal cash). However, I don't know how much of this is my company sucking and how much of this is Retalix though.
Anyways, the program would often crash. When I would work, I would be the only employee there (I knew how to run the place myself, and they took advantage of that). My manager (a very bad one...1 week after I quit, she got fired), took upwards of 2 hours to reach at times...and then a 10-minute drive...so the machine would be out of order for 2 hours, at times.
Funny thing is...I'd still sell things. I'd keep track of everything (with pen and paper) I sold, and did all the math in my head... I had a key to the register, so I'd leave it open... never came up more than 10 cents off.
Earn a % of cash back from Newegg, Tiger Direct, Walmart.com, and more: http://www.mrrebates.com?refid=458505
I saw the terminals built into seats of Song (a Delta Company) airline reboot the other day, and they, too, are running Linux.
Simpy
Jaycar electronics use Linux on their POS systems. Their sock managament system seems to just use an ssh connection to a server off somewhere else, though.
Its a pity their website uses asp.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
So, are all the bics in my office "enterprise systems"?
Well, there's probably a Linux server, somewhere, that all those POS terminals hook up to, that at the very least has the interfaces to pump the POS terminals' data into whatever other Enterprise software (retail management system, inventory system, accounting, etc). Maybe that software is running on Linux, too.
The place that I worked all summer used Red Hat Linux on their tills as well. Hannaford Supermarkets recently updated all of their northeastern stores with the new linux-based system.
apparently, most airports use a windows box for each and every display (such as the ones showing the flight number at the gates). those seem to regularly crash, with nice BSODs that makes the airport look dumb. see for instance LAS (Las Vegas McCarran).
That's pretty sad if they're trying to say there's "thousands" of POS's running Linux, and that that's the "majority" *cough* FUD *cough*. I'm sorry, "thousands" of POS's doesn't even TOUCH the tip of the iceberg. Hell, there's "thousands" of POS's in say, cub foods alone in my state. And that's just one business, and just one state.
>Point of Sale systems are really not enterprise level software or whatever
The slightly bigger picture is the POS has responsibilities related inventory control, loss prevention, and cash accounting. It's as "enterprise" as it gets.
If someone were to simply productize a system and sell it on its features, it shouldn't matter what OS it runs. Only geeks care that the Tivo is a linux box, or the Linksys routers, or the Muse Receptor (musical instrument), to name a few consumer products.
As for enterprise products, isn't one of the major hotel desk packages a Linux system from start to finish?
I see a lot of posts in this thread that seem to be from the point of view that there is Windows, and then there is "anything else", including Linux. I suspect people don't realize just how many systems run SCO in applications like this. It's not just a slashdot/groklaw conceit that SCO is going away and these systems need to migrate. I imagine there's quite a marketplace opening up.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
This is also a pretty big win for Java. It shows you can switch the underlying OS with little or no trouble.
A neat coincidence is that I just finished the new edition of "Applying UML and Patterns" by Craig Larman which uses a Java based Point of Sale system as a running example throughout the book of how to use UML together with GRASP and Gang of Four patterns.
Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die
What's newsworthy about this story?
Yes, we do know that people use Linux.
GNU/Linux can boot and even run many applications.
And I would bet they had IBM's server-side stuff on AIX or something like that so they couldn't have left IBM anyway. If it was that cost, and not the cost of Windows XP embedded or whatever licenses, that made them take that choice.
Does anyone really think IBM sales guys give a flying fuck what OS runs on POS terminals, as long as they control the situation so that the customer doesn't go to a competitor, be it Microsoft, HP or even some skillful Linux-savvy systems integrator? Give me a break...
Point of Sale systems are really not enterprise level software or whatever. Usually the simpler it is it the better.
If you change the previous statement to "a POS terminal" I would agree with you.
A whole POS system though is pretty enterprise to me. Transactions, interfaces to different credit card systems, security, high availability, logging, maybe a rules engine for special taxes and rebate rules...
Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die
Here in germany, EDEKA and Citysupermarkt run linux in their points of sale, they look quite alike, and in the monitor you can clearly see the penguin !, albeit in black and white. That's in the city I live, I don't know in the rest of the country, though
In Other News: OMG! Someone is using Linux! Holy Shit! WHY?!?!?! EVERYBODY LOOK!!!
Anyone who's worked with Capgemini or come into contact with the kind of crappy product they usually produce will tell you, this is obviously a MS publicity stunt: I'm willing to bet in a few month you'll be hearing that Matalan is switching back to Windows citing as reasons "the hidden costs of the support" or that "the machine would basically, putting it in Windows terms, core dump or blue screen at random."
And if you think I'm trying to be funny or just playing Cassandra, just wait and see...
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
Autozone switched to Linux a while ago. They were the first ones sued by SCO, in fact.
This is just my observation, but I've always thought of Autozone as the "low end" auto parts retailer in the US. Their prices are always lowest. Their clerks tend to speak less English. Mechanics used to tell me to shop "anywhere but Autozone". I stopped going there a few years ago because they would constantly give me the wrong parts.
Recently, though, I've noticed a change. People are recommending Autozone to me. The last part I got there fit perfectly. The clerk actually knew what he was talking about. And they still have the lowest prices in town.
It just goes to show that, with Linux, cutting costs doesn't mean cutting functionality.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
Not that it's much of a surprise, but Maplin the biggest electronics retailer in the UK runs Red Hat on for their stock systems and tills. And when I say electronics I mean just that: PCBs, transistors, cables and everything else for the tinkering geek.
Mr. Smoove
No, I own the software I run.
That does not mean I own the copyright to the software.
You're conflating two entirely different things. Go back to your analogy with the book.
I have boxes and boxes of books. I own every single book.
I don't own any copyrights in most of them, but I still own the books.
Just like I own the software on my computer.
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
"Sounds like some people can get Linux to work in an 'enterprise environment' after all."
Who (besides Microsoft and their paid shills) have you heard arguing that Linux doesn't work in the enterprise? Linux is somewhere in the server room at any place big enough to have a server room. What people do argue is that Linux on the desktop isn't ready for the enterprise - but that's not what this is. A cash register isn't a desktop (though it might run on desktop hardware), it's a single purpose machine that's going to run one application only. Linux has been doing well in the embedded market for a long time, and that's essentially what this is.
I am a manager for a movie theatre company which uses Windows 2000 box office and concessions POS terminals. The software running on those terminals connects with an Access database served on a Windows 2000 Server box. The machines themselves are reliable, with uptimes measured in weeks or months. (Of course, such uptimes mean the machines aren't being patched regularly, but they don't give me the admin password ;) ). If I weren't such a Unix junkie, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend such a setup as a point of sale solution for a company that was unwilling to train Unix personnel to support the setup.
:)
However, the software running on the terminals is HORRIBLE. I have never encountered such sub-par coding and attention to detail in my life. For example, on our box office stations, if a customer decides to purchase tickets on a credit card and swipes the card through the reader before the cashier has a chance to push the Pay -> Credit button sequence, the application rings the sale up as a cash sale, then promptly crashes. Huh? The average student in an intro CS course can write better VB than these clowns.
At any rate, because of the sheer shoddiness of the software, we have enormous support costs. Managers who know their way around computers (me) are forever restarting the POS application or troubleshooting some issue or another. When we tech-savvy managers aren't around, the mere mortals are forced to ring up transactions for the rest of the evening using calculators and paper records until one of us or an IT guy can come in. (The IT guys, by the way, are based over a hundred miles away.)
Because of the poor quality of the software, our current Windows solution is not cost-effective. However, if these clowns wrote a Unix-based POS application, our TCO would still be high simply because we are always having people support the application as opposed to the platform. That isn't to say I wouldn't be thrilled if we ditched the software and moved to Linux...or even better, OpenBSD (cue the Netcraft spam).
By the way, if you are in the IT department of a large movie theatre corporation and you are considering a POS solution, don't touch Splyce with a ten-foot pole.
$ whatis themeaningoflife
themeaningoflife: not found
It would be handy in some applications, though, because the printer can generate the 24-volt drive pulse for the cashdrawer solenoid. You could hook the printer up with USB and an external power brick, and use damn near anything with a USB port as your till...
I work in a retail store in Finland that has been using Linux based Point of Sale systems for many years now. We are using Debian/Linux and our POS software is running on top of X. It has some nice features, like installing OS and software from scratch takes less than one minute (using network boot). Also, sales reporting, price changes, campaigns and about all information is transferred in realtime (but it does work without network connection). We have also used this with GPRS and WLAN connections (using secured IP tunnels).
Summa summarum: Linux seems to be very nice platform for both ease of developing, system stability and good performance.
SCNR
Damn, I hate to come in so late on a POS discussion. Linux POS is my specialty; I've been writing POS software since 1977. Even here in my home I can touch an icon on my touchscreen X terminal display and open a remote graphic to any of my customers' sites. With a couple of touches I can order a beer in Texas, a pizza in Florida or a burrito in California. I can put a wireless touchscreen X terminal display in your hand or build one into a restaurant table table that will let a customer do the same thing - enter & pay for their own order. POS has come a long way. What's ahead will be even better.
The closest linux ever got to cold hard cash :D
You feel sleepy. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.
Linux lovers who care about freedom might want to avoid Matalan, because it makes all shoppers join a compulsory ID card scheme. You can't simply buy stuff anonymously. Yes, I have tried. Other cut-price stores.
Even our former, ID-card-loving, Home Secretary, David Blunkett, spoke out on the dangers of store cards because of the amount of personal information collected.
If companies are trusting Linux with their most expensive hardware, it certainly is trusted. Trust is not the problem.
The ONLY real problem is legacy software (like Office macros and/or Win32 software) that doesn't run on Linux.
If that problem doesn't exist (like on supercomputers which run customized software anyway) or is removed (like when most 3d-modelling apps were ported to Linux) the market is moving to Linux.
Sir, your knowledge of Star Trek trivia is unsurpassed. Your mother must be proud.
I think microsoft windows is going to get less popular in the next years.
anyway...
I personaly think that for the moment linux still needs a bit more reshaping in the next years.
Its still user unfriendly at some points, if i switch my graphics card from slot as example xserv refuses to start. What causes quite some headaches. But i'm sure this is going to get fixed in the near feature. If linux its hardware support went up to (aka companies release sourcecode of drivers).
Linux can be used by mainstream home users to just browse and mail a bit.
But if we want to get it that way a lott of work needs to be done.
Else it will not be for our generation to see linux take the market over from windows.
These stories are kind of silly. Investment banks deploy linux by the tens of thousands. That seems to have already indicated that linux is in the enterprise.
I believe the point-of-sale app should also be worth a mention in the summary; we may have a killer combination right there. An update to that effect would be nice, and provide credit where it's due. Or at least apologies to the software company for the omission would be proper.
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
Matalan is a clothing retailer known mainly for its low prices; you know, a pair of jeans for 5 pounds, a T-shirt for a quid etc. As a low-price, low-cost business, I'm sure licensing costs have something to do with this (no slur on Linux intended).
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
I manage a small bookshop and we run a proprietary POS system that includes all the shop management and stock control on top of SuSe Linux (more reliable and faster than Windows according to the vendor). Apparently it is the same system as run by the FreeRecordShop chain. It works great and I am very pleased with it My question is though are there any good open source shop management systems developed for Linux. I went looking for them but didn't find them.
Is copyright law the final word when it comes to the definition of "own", or is it possible that the word "own" has other
meanings and connotations in other spheres, and actually there isn't a generally agreed upon rigorous definition?
I hate lawyer speak. Isn't it futile arguing over the nature of ownership based on some definition dreamt up for convenience by a particular legal system (unless of course we're arguing like lawyers and are only interested in one-upping the other guy within some constraints in order to win a contest).
The world is everything that is the case
Nope, you are wrong:
1. Book: You own the paper, the paste, the cover. You even own the ink !
2. Software: Yep, you own the CD, you own the 1.2 mm thick disc of polycarbonate plastic, the layer of Super Purity Aluminiumplastic, the protective film of lacquer. You even own the holes that make the "information".
What you do not own is in fact the program, the information in there as in the book you do not own the text that is written.
You see the difference now?
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
Doesn't Lowes hardware do this already? I think they run Redhat on IBM equipment. At least they do for all their special order terminals around the store.
http://www.CelloFourteGroupie.net
Wow something MicroShaft can't spin.. In your Face you big Bully!
I think what we're trying to point out here is that you "own" Linux in exactly the same way as you "own" windows. Both are licensed to you, under somewhat different terms, you don't own copyright on either. So whatever you consider to be the definition of "own" - the same holds for both platforms.
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
Actually, nobody owns software. Copyrighted material cannot be owned. And no, you are not using it with the users permission. Copyright is, like the name implies, a time-limited monopoly to copy and redistribute the work. It is not about using (as long as that "use" does not involve showing to other people), it is about copying/distribution.
This might be nitpicking, but it is important that people learn the basic fact that thoughts and ideas cannot be owned.
or Cap Gemini (http://www.capgemini.com/)
one time while working at BP the back office computer died (hd failure, bios couldn't even detect it anymore)
anyways, it was then I discovered their entire system for the whole chain of shops still uses os/2 with zip drives to backup (hacked driver to support larger drives)
I understand we have different constaints, and we have economies of scale (almost always over 50K units). But a miniature PC is still a PC. You speak of reliability in terms of how often a system needs to be rebooted? WTF? I was on an international flight, and they had to shut down the in-seat (and up front) video system and reboot it. Hah, must be Windoze I thought, wearing my slashdot hat. Then this penguin came up on the main screen... When is the last time you had to reboot your car stereo, or any of the other crap in there? How about your home stereo? Your microwave? Your dishwasher?
WTF is my point? Please stop calling PCs embedded systems just because they're in an unusual place. And above all else, stop thinking of reliability as a feature instead of a requirement.
I'm going down as a flaming troll this time.
So how long before someone puts windows virii on a swipe card and sends it into the system?
Moo, Ah, Haha!
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing. Emo Philips
I think your book analogy is a bad one. Copyright does not cover usage. Only issues related to copying (hence why it is important for software to have a license since it is copied all the time). The license for software of course might limit your usage in return for the ability to do limited copying, but the same is not really true for a book. Most people are not copying books, so they don't need the author's permission to use it, or have any license with him.
Not completely true,
I work for various businesses as a tech guy, so I have to order equipment left right and center through Maplins. Maybe at first the order system was a little slow (during the initial flux), but I can only commend their decision. The people working at Maplin's have also praised the speed and simplicity of the new system. Heck, five guys that work there switched their desktops at home because of their tills!
I have had no trouble whatsoever with Maplins service since the switch (apart from the bluecurve theme, they won't let me install clearlooks)!
The really interesting point of this article is not Matalan's use of Linux but reference to an 'independent' Capgemini report for the London Borough of Newham (funded by Microsoft) which found the cost savings of moving to Linux were half of those of staying with Microsoft.
Documents recently issued under the Freedom of Information Act in the UK, including a memorandum of understanding between MS and Newham Council, reveal that the figures used in the report were *supplied by* Microsoft and *not* "independently validated" by Capgemini.
When asked to defend the study Capgemini admitted "sometimes there are situations where you get together with the client and defend their data."
Its what we always suspected but now there's evidence of brown envelopes passing hands. Sadly, so much time has passed since Newham that no-one cares much anymore.
I don't think that is what we will see. Most of the places I have worked at seem to treat their point of sale systems like a toaster or an air conditioner. It is a piece of equipment designed to do a specific task. Part of that design is working with the backed systems that really are considered a separate entity. Although it may be a poor analogy what you are suggesting seems to me like switching to linux on your home computer because tivo uses it to make a halfway decent dvr.
Slashdot: Where anecdotes and generalizations can be freely substituted for facts, logic, or intelligence
That cheered me up a bit, nearly had a sulk after my order and stocktaking programs both got maligned on Slashdot in the same day!
mattc
How anyone can slang a Linux system that can eject a till drawer the second you press a button? I don't know.
.. into the main computer, you should be able to eject the drawer now!"
Now we've got to find a way to mount the drawer device and get a list of the contents from ls!
God knows what would happen if the root user left his terminal acessing the till drawer though.
[root user by telephone to store clerk]
"Go through into the other room and type cd
I remember seeing our friend the penguin as a logo on various POS machines for up to half-a-decade or more earlier. Lots of these machine were pretty simple interfaces on monochrome screens, but I definately remember seeing the Tux logo on there. Aren't there a lot of older POS interfaces based on linux, or perhaps the ones I remember just looked like they were running 'nix?
i am pretty sure autozone auto parts chain uses red hat. have for at least a few years, at least it has been a couple of years since i noticed the name/ver flash across their screen... they seem to have no problems. even on the scalability side. they can access my warranty info from any one of their thousands of stores.
actually use linux for their POS terminals.
The (evil) SCO Group made "Auto Zone" world famous when Darryl sued them. They switched from SCO unix to linux with (I think) IBM's help.
A (small?) clothing retailer called "Burlington Coat Factory" uses linux POS terminals with an IBM mainframe backend.
Linux-based POS terminals tied to a linux backend should work quite well, also. MSFT licensing costs could easily exceed the NR engineering costs associated with switching to a linux solution in anything but a MSFT-funded TCO study.
Except that the technology behind Linux is can scale from "Toasters" and "PVRs" to serious Enterprise applications.
We always hear about how companies "are going to" do something but all too often in the end it becomes a disaster and they go running back to Sun or Microsoft with their tail between their legs.
Home Deopt was one of the larger "going to"s. It was announced everywhere in 2001 (Google for it!). It failed MISERABLY because Linux had maybe 1/4 the infrastruction of a mature Server/Client OS like Solaris or even Windows. And it's no better today in that regard.
No articles about the failure! Why is that?
Who is it that keep over-selling Linux to gullable PHBs and company bean counters? They are doing the entire community a huge disservice. The amount of anti-Linux backlash this is causing is pretty bad if you actually listen to what's going on in the industry (instead of just getting 100% of your Linux news from here or Linux only rags)
If we take the position (as I am inclined to) that the EULA is unenforceable gibberish, that would be true. If we take the position, as MS and their legions of well-paid lawyers may be predicted to take, that the EULA is completely proper and enforceable, however, it's not true at all.
Not true. A license is offered for linux, which you are free to accept or not. That license does not purport to interfere with your normal ownership rights of the software, or to be mandatory. It's simply available to anyone that wants it, anyone that wishes to do things with the software that require a license - such as distribution and creation of derivative works.
MS Windows, on the other hand, comes with something called an 'End User License Agreement' which purports, not to give you a license to engage in any activity you would need a license for, but rather to give you permission to use the software, a right which you have already having bought it. It also purports to do so under a huge list of conditions, requiring you to treat the software you bought and own as if, indeed, you did not own it, requiring that you refrain from using it in many ways that would otherwise be perfectly legal.
So the distinction between the two platforms in this respect is quite clear, assuming only that the Windows EULA is somehow enforceable.
And while a strong case can be made that the EULA is null and void in the case of an individual (although one wonders what individual would have the resources to oppose MS' team of lawyers, if it came to that) - large institutional customers are required to sign real contracts, certainly enforceable, to the same effect. So for those customers, there is no doubt at all - if they run linux, they own their software, if they run Windows, they only lease it, under a very one-sided contract.
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
This is not true, and it's a pestilential meme.
I have tons and tons of books. I don't have a license for any of them. And I don't need a license for them. Same for music, same for software.
The only time you need a license is if you're going to do something normally disallowed by copyright law. Like distributing copies, or modified works. I can't legally take my books, or my music, and make copies and take them out and sell them, sure. For that I would actually need a license. But to read the books, to listen to the music, to think about the contents and talk about them and even include limited quotes in my own works do not require a license.
The only difference with software is that the proprietary stuff tends to come with something which purports to be a license, but clearly isn't, while the Free Software comes with a license offer I can accept if I ever want to do something that would require a license. Neither the music nor the books comes with either of those. But I no more need a license to use my software than I need a license to read my books.
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
"Sounds like some people can get Linux to work in an 'enterprise environment' after all." paleeeeease. linux has been being used in the enterprise for years though the practice may not be mainstream. i don't think there's any question that linux can be deployed in an enterprise environment. i can build you any system you'd like, with linux, and it will be stable and secure. you just need to work with the right engineers--ones that really KNOW technology rather than just follow it (microsofties, shall we call them?).
Mine is bigger then youra...Doh!
Um, not a Brit. Very much not.
Don't get too excited. I worked at Matalan, they were never using Windows for the tills in the first place. In fact, they were using QNX Embedded, version 6.2 as I recall. How do I know this? I was a cashier, and when the tills booted up they told you!