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I do everything I need to do with free (beer) software, although Loki occasionally tempts me to spend some money on games.

Darn, I just tried out Tux Racer 0.61 (from Mandrake's RPMs) last night and it was actually pretty fun for a beta of a game.

Now I wouldn't be so dissappointed in Sunspire Studios they were releasing for Linux. Loki's great but Linux still needs more game developers.

Well now I suppose it's up to Open Racer to show the good of OSS and better Tux Racer...

Hopefully, Loki's book, Programming Linux Games will be a lot better.

Does anyone know of any early reviews of this book? It's due to be relesed in August.

-Karl

I think you have made a couple very good points, particularly about the customer base. We have seen this time and time again from companies, particularly game developers and those with close relationships with MS. Many times gaming companies will quote statistics by other's experiences with linux games and say that "based on previous research, we have decided not to support linux." Although some developers (Dynamix, ID Software, and of course Loki) have started to move away from this trend, the majority have not not. I think that in the future we will see more of these companies move toward linux if for no other reason than being tired of MS.

There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and BSD. We don't believe this to be a coincidence.

Here.

I'm not sure to what extent it can solve the various dll problems, but for newbies who are used to the windows style of installations and have been talked into using linux because they saw Koffice and Konqueror and decided it was similar enough that they could get by, programs like this are *very* nice.

Yeah, it's funny... people ask questions like this to "Ask Slashdot" without really trying to research it themselves... A very quick search actually turned up the Tribes 2 FAQ from Loki's website...where it talks about this very thing.

I always thought "Ask Slashdot" would be a *last resort* kind of measure... to be used only after I've already exhausted all other options. But I have been noticing an increasing number of "Ask Slashdot" questions like this (here's another that boggled my mind). Hmm... maybe it's just me ;-)

Yeah, it's funny... people ask questions like this to "Ask Slashdot" without really trying to research it themselves... A very quick search actually turned up the Tribes 2 FAQ from Loki's website...where it talks about this very thing.

I always thought "Ask Slashdot" would be a *last resort* kind of measure... to be used only after I've already exhausted all other options. But I have been noticing an increasing number of "Ask Slashdot" questions like this (here's another that boggled my mind). Hmm... maybe it's just me ;-)

Anonymous Coward asked:

Wasn't Alpha Centuri for Linux put on ice because Loki though that there wasn't a market?

Err - no.

HTH.

Serious, Ill pay (and do pay) good money for native games. As other people have pointed out, native == faster and fps (and the like) need to be fast.

I love being able to play (re: kick their asses) Tribes 2 with my windows "friends". Hope loki can keep going.

-jason m

BTW: Shamless plug for tux games. They where good about getting me Tribes 2 and SMAC and keeping me updated though the delays.

We do see OpenGL games, just have a look at Loki, they sell plenty, including Quake3 and Unreal.
ID Software releases Quake3 for various platforms, and they are able to do so because they use OpenGL.

The LUG program is intended to support the efforts of non-profit groups who are evangelizing Linux. Our program allows LUGs to purchase Loki products at a discount for promotional purposes (e.g. give aways and contest prizes) and to generate financial support for their efforts via resale to their members.

There are strict qualification guidelines--you actually have to be a LUG, LUGs cannot sell or distribute products to anyone except their own members, and sales and give aways of products must be done at LUG meetings and events.

Tuxgames.com is an online webstore which sells Linux products to end users. They buy the product at a discount and sell at a profit. The more they buy, the bigger the discount. There are a number of such sites in countries all over the world. A list of stores (both online and brick and mortar) that resell Loki's products can be found at http://www.lokigames.com/orders/resellers.php3. We value our resellers and have worked hard to build relationships with them. We use Tuxgames, for example, to offer product discounts to our beta testers and, when we had problems with our own webstore recently, we emailed customers and suggested they use the Tuxgames site instead to avoid delays.

Loki is proud of its record supporting the community of users and developers involved with open source software. We believe that our game products play an important role increasing the appeal of Linux to new users, and are excited about reaching new users by sponsoring LUGs with this new program.

Kayt Sorhaindo
Queen Bee
Loki Software, Inc.

hmm, when i ordered q3 from loki it didnt cost me more than 10$ for shipping to europe.

isnt it possible for you to buy linux game at some company that is located in your country? here in sweden i can buy most loki games for less than 45$ over order. you can try to look at loki reseller list at http://www.lokigames.com/orders/resellers.php3. there might be reseller near you.

Sid Meir's Alpha Centauri

I bought the card because, as a gamer, playing Tribes 2 (just picked it up yesterday, actually) smoothly at 1280x1024 in 32-bit color just r0X0rs.

Speaking of which, a lot of people have observed that Quake 3 for Linux might have done a lot better if it had been anywhere near as available as Quake 3 for win32. Instead, people didn't necessarily even know it existed, and Id decided there was no Linux market for games. Will the same thing happen here?

It's availiable for Win32 and Linux.

You can find more information about Tribes 2 here, here, and more about Linux Tribes here.

:)

-Gnight

SMAC is not network compatible because the Windows version uses DirectPlay for networking. Since DirectPlay is a Microsoft product and uses proprietary calls which Microsoft has not documented, there is currently no way for us (or for Mac users) to write a game with compatible calls.

I cannot overstate the importance of these two titles for Linux gaming. As most of you know, the expirmental retail Linux release of Quake 3 was, by publishing standards, a failure. Linux Tribes 2 is the most high-profile port since Q3, and rest assured both industry developers and publishers will once again be watching to determine if Linux is worth their time. Furthermore, Loki cannot continue to port titles if the ones they do publish are not purchased; so spread the word (many Linux users were unaware Loki had ported anything beyond Civilization: Call to Power) if you want Linux gaming to be a viable option. It's even more difficult for Linux porters (Loki, Tribsoft, Hyperion) to make a profit on their work considering they have to mark up the retail price to recoup the inherent losses that go with filling a niche market (Win32 titles can sell for much lower due to established publishers, retail chains, customers, etc.)... it's a vicious circle, but the only way to break it is to support what's out there now to forge the foundation for later growth.

In short, holding off Linux game purchases because the releases are not timely (i.e., on par with Windows) or cheap will ensure that they will always be neither.

Btw, as has been stated elsewhere on this story, Linux Tribes 2 is being released only 2 weeks after the Win32 version, which is hardly a significant period of time.

Why multiple package formats when it could just use something like Setup to accomplish the same goals for everyone, while not being attached to a particular distro-specific format?

When you do that, you are pretty much dead in the water as far as the open source community goes.

What may be the only good thing tocome of this, would be if they GPL'ed the complete details of everything they have done the day before they go down, maybe give something back to the community that so far they have only ignored.

Heck 99% of the fun would be trying to build one of these.

For a similar, but much cheaper thrill, you might wanna check out the Mindrover demo.

Please remember that SDL development was done mostly by the lead programmer for Loki.
If you all want more work to be done on it, go buy Loki games (from Loki themselves or one of their resellers like everythinglinux or Tux Games. Without Loki, there will be much slower development of SDL

I have been watching the development of SDL since I first saw it mentioned on Freshmeat (at 0.7). I have been on the SDL mailing list ever since, and I can tell you that SDL is probably your best bet for a fast, lightweight, cross-platform game programming library that's not going to get in your way. Right now it runs on (Source compatible) Linux, FreeBSD, Windows (Using Direct X), BeOS, and Mac. I can also tell you that there are tons of people on the SDL mailing lists, and they're not all Loki employees.

I took a look at a lot of other game programming libraries when I was first investigating SDL, I didn't just jump blindly into it. SDL isn't the answer to all game writing woes, and it could even be too low level for what a lot of people want, but it is fast, light, and since it's written in C, it can be incorporated into most anything.

If you want more information on SDL, I would recommend checking out their website: libsdl.org. It lists quite a few of the projects (Both game and otherwise) that SDL is being used in. I counted more than a hundred. A few of the highlights:

Most of the Loki games.
Descent 1x, 2x
Freecraft
OpenUT
Several DOOM and Quake projects

Also, for those of you who want something a little higher-level, SDL has several game programming libraries built on top of it:
BUILD Engine
GUIlib
PowerPak

I have been watching the development of SDL since I first saw it mentioned on Freshmeat (at 0.7). I have been on the SDL mailing list ever since, and I can tell you that SDL is probably your best bet for a fast, lightweight, cross-platform game programming library that's not going to get in your way. Right now it runs on (Source compatible) Linux, FreeBSD, Windows (Using Direct X), BeOS, and Mac. I can also tell you that there are tons of people on the SDL mailing lists, and they're not all Loki employees.

I took a look at a lot of other game programming libraries when I was first investigating SDL, I didn't just jump blindly into it. SDL isn't the answer to all game writing woes, and it could even be too low level for what a lot of people want, but it is fast, light, and since it's written in C, it can be incorporated into most anything.

If you want more information on SDL, I would recommend checking out their website: libsdl.org. It lists quite a few of the projects (Both game and otherwise) that SDL is being used in. I counted more than a hundred. A few of the highlights:

Most of the Loki games.
Descent 1x, 2x
Freecraft
OpenUT
Several DOOM and Quake projects

Also, for those of you who want something a little higher-level, SDL has several game programming libraries built on top of it:
BUILD Engine
GUIlib
PowerPak

Sam Lantinga answered that question in this post.
(http://www.lokigames.com/ml/sdl/8454.html)

What kind of game are you working on?

I've been playing with SDL on and off for about a year and a half now. Long ago, I wrote a VisualC-SDL intro, and submitted a bug fix. I've worked on BumpRace, and am working on a game that I plan to port from ClanLib to SDL soon, just to chop the dependencies down and ditch C++.

It sounds like you are talking about a home game programming project. If that's the case, then SDL should more than meet your need. In my experience, home game programmers tend to dramatically over-estimate their performance needs. Focus more on making your game do something interesting first.

I don't meant to say SDL doesn't perform well; Hyperion ported Shogo to Linux using SDL (so, yes, companies other than Loki commercially using it), and Loki ported Tribes 2 and a zillion other games to Linux with SDL...

As for the user community for SDL; it's huge, and quite friendly. There are a lot of projects out there that build on SDL, and there are bindings for Python, Perl, and many other languages. (For casual readers: SDL itself is in C.)

I really don't know what more you could ask for, except for it to become the world standard and have a dedicated hotline for support (DirectX). Other than that, it's all pretty much there.

Check out Loki, since they wrote (or at least have done heavy development) on SDL exactly for the purpose of porting "professional" games. Get some of their demos; buy some of their games. Just last week or so I got Descent 3, Terminus, and Soldier of Fortune (for about $10 each from ebgames.. can't pass up a deal like that), and am highly impressed with the quality. Pop in the SoF CD, run the cute little graphical installer, and go. It works. Flawlessly. Terminus too. (Actually that's slightly inaccurate, there were some minor GL problems with the G400 drivers in 32bpp mode that came up later, but switching to 16bpp seemed to fix them.) D3 I have problems with, related again to the XFree86 4.x G400 drivers, but still.

I've played some of their demos as well, and they're equally solid and polished. The SDL stuff is where it's at. Loki has proven it works for "real" games. The API and related packages you can get are great. Easy to install, easy to code for, flexible, Free(tm), portable, proven. What more could you ask for?

Err, that one's already being done, you know. LokiGames ... right there on the front page, it says (under news 11.05.00), 'Tribes2 Beta Testers Needed'

Parity None
--Parity

Am I missing something or has UT been available for Linux for quite some time?
(No bundled UT for Linux, but binaries for use with the Windows version)

UT for Linux (Loki)


--

Loki is going to be releasing Tribes 2 in the nearish future. They're trying their darndest to get VoIP in the package as well. I am certainly going to wait for the Linux version (as I did with Quake 3) even though I'm only mildly excited about the game.

On top of that, Loki announced last summer that it would partner with BSDI to support FreeBSD by making sure their games work under the emulation, and releasing patches as required.

I have to wonder what "Debian GNU Linux - Infomagic or Loki" is supposed to mean.

CD vendor? InfoMagic sells Debian CDs, and I think I've heard that LokiGames does/did, as well (though I'm not sure).

What non-commerical linux community written software that a consumer who buys a pc for games and simple office work is better than what can be had for Windows?

I think you're asking all the wrong questions here. Free software only has to be 'about as good' as commercial software (although it is sometimes better) for people to switch to free alternatives. Why keep shelling out the bucks when something else is free and is better or almost as good?

Netscape 6? No. Sorry, IE5 is a better browser.

Have you tried Mozilla M18? I'm guessing no... It's rendering engine is just plain faster than IE and Mozilla is far more configurable than IE. blah blah blah... I could go on and give you a laundry list of why I like Mozilla better than IE now but they would be _my_ reasons... My basic point is you shouldn't assume that just bc you like something better that everyone else will feel the same as you.

Mail clients? No. They're a dime a dozen on Windows also--and many of those are excellent mail clients.

So I could get a free mail client or use a mail client that comes bundled with a $100 OS? Hmmm.. I admit that I'm ovestating argument my argument a little but not by much at all. I'd also point out that hordes of stampeding GNUs are making such an argument more persuasive daily...

THe same holds true for news readers, ftp clients, and IRC programs.

Yes, they are a dime a dozen but all of the leading products in the categories that you listed (except for possibly Free Agent) cost money. All those really nice apps are free in Linux. :) I would say this is one area where Linux has caught Windows programs. Functionality between News, FTP and IRC clients is virtually the same on Windows and Linux platforms.

Office apps? Maybe But people will want to use at home what they use at work.

People may *want* to use Office at home are they willing to shell out $500 to do so when free software equivilants exists which will do the same work and import MS Office documents? Furthermore, take into account that Windows XP and .NET promises to have strict copyright protection and that changes the scene even more. Office and Windows is some of the most pirated software around. Pretty soon Microsoft is going to force these folks to either pony up the $500 for Office (alot more if you add in the OS) or not play at all with MS's toys. I don't see 'mom and dad' shelling out that kinda dough to browse the web and finish a word/excel/powerpoint document etc at home which they started at work. I think you too readily ignore the sky high cost of Office.

Games? I don't think there are many non-commercial Linux games that hold a candle to any commerical offering (on either Linux or Windows). In the commerical games camp you only have ports of games that already exist on Windows.

Isn't that why we're all here now tho? Porting DX over to WINE sounds like a wonderful thing. As a shameless plug, over at WorldForge we're working on improving the game scene in the *nix area by creating a MMORPG engine... Oh yeah and don't forget those great guys over at Loki who are laying the foundation for even more wonderful games on *nux to appear and in the process bringing some great game ports over to Linux.

So what, if anything, would a Windows user see in non-commercial linux software that would make them want to switch OSes?

I think the question is starting to become "Why would anyone continue to pay such insane prices for software when so many free equivilants exist?" I don't pretend that Linux is there yet with MS in terms of ease of use or the number of killer apps but I look around every day and see Microsoft's advantages rapidly diminishing. In my eyes the advantages that Microsoft holds over it's free alternatives have become pretty marginal. We're already seeing poorer nations such as Mexico and other cash strapped countries balking at Microsoft's high licensing fees and going with (free) GNU software which is roughly equivilant. If I were Ballmer and company I would be worried about the GPL (and it's variants) making software a commodity item... very very worried indeed...

Which apparently they are...

Rather than emulation efforts, I'd rather see people spending their time writing e-mails, filling out surveys (like this one for NBA Live!, for example), and filling out petitions (like this one) telling publishers that you want Linux games. "Putting your money where your mouth is", so to speak, is also a good way to urge publishers along: go buy some Loki products, for example.

Trust me, such things do get attention.

Ryan T. Sammartino

And what about Windows? Simple installer. Sometimes these installers aren't very good - but almost always the software will be installed and will run.
I've written a few windows installers in my time, and I have to say that while what you are saying is true, it is a bit inaccurate to suggest that it is easy to make these beautiful installers.

There are several major issues when writing an installer for a Windows program. DLLs are different from one Windows to another. I (We?) call this DLL-Hell. Furthermore, IF the installer is written wrong, you can break the machine's registry settings.

So why do the installers work so well? Because people like me are paid to write them and test them and fix them repeatedly until they work! On windows 95/98/ME/NT4/2000!

So just remember - Linux software is free! You want to make some game install well? Write an installer. Installshield for linux has been around for a while (although I've never used it myself, I hear it's pretty good). Furthermore, there's a installer package from LOKI that does setup for all their games. And by the way, those games install fine.

Same thing I am doing... I still like FPS games but I mosly do it for the companies that are supporting Linux. I understand how you feel and I still got my Windows boot for little things... I feel once I get Vmware working it will be over with... I buy Linux games and Linux only, I had someone call me up today and said "Hey I heard you got Sim City 3000". I smile and said yeah I got it "But it only runs under Linux." I talk to the kid for a long time. I told him that all my games that I got run under Linux and how I don't plan on getting any Win32 games. He's interested in see my Linux box because I got one of his friends to install it not to long ago(that's a different story). Even if he had Linux I would tell him to buy the game and not copy it from me to support the Linux movement. I do it for the love of the OS, most of my friends don't understand that.

As for the games I have:

SimCity 3000
Myth2
Soldier of Fortune
Quake 3(with Team Arena)
Heretic 2
Eric's Ultimate Solitaire

My friend got me Mechwarrior 4(by Microsoft) for X-mas, so I fix that by getting him Lin4Win(by Mandrakesoft). =)He didn't install Lin4Win and I didn't install MW4, I figure I could keep it for the D3D they are adding in the WINE project.

I figure if we the people don't show our support for games on Linux then we will never get them. Most of the people including my friend hop on net and download the game that they want if they don't feel like paying for it. The internet is full with cracks and games if you know where to look.

Linux will make a great gaming platform. I could list the things...

1. No rebooting
2. No defragment tools for hardrive
3. Very tweekable and toonable.

I like these things when it comes to gaming in Linux because not only I could upgrade my kernel but also my X11 and Nvidia 3D drivers as well tweeking my system to the max. I can't wait for that wait when I could drive to BestBuy and pick up a copy of a good game. Into then I will keep order games off of Loki's website.

Converting from Direct3D involves a few different things--accounting for the different coordinate systems, the rigidity of the Direct3D data structures, the use of DirectDraw surfaces for textures in D3D, etc. Luckily OpenGL is very flexible and allows you to get around lots of these issues elegantly.

...

The difficulty depends on the depth to which the original code base was tied to the rendering API, and the particular paradigm of rendering which was used (ie, full transformation, rasterization only, etc.).

Converting from Direct3D involves a few different things--accounting for the different coordinate systems, the rigidity of the Direct3D data structures, the use of DirectDraw surfaces for textures in D3D, etc. Luckily OpenGL is very flexible and allows you to get around lots of these issues elegantly.

...

The difficulty depends on the depth to which the original code base was tied to the rendering API, and the particular paradigm of rendering which was used (ie, full transformation, rasterization only, etc.).

I think that Linux is an excellent platform for game programmers and gamers alike. The reason that programmers avoid Linux, is that they think that the Linux community pressures programmers to license their code under the GPL, or a similar license. However, As Loki Games have proven; Linux is an excellent platform for game development, and money CAN be made.

SDL is a cross-platform game devel library, that (off the top of my head) works on Linux (X and fb), MacOS, Windows, and probably a bunch of other targets too :) )

The API is quite nice, and the whole thing is.. it's just nice :). I love it.

SDL has sound support, and 2d video. If you need 3d, you can use GL for graphics with SDL for everything else, which is a big plus.

SDL is, BTW, what Loki uses to port games from Windows to Linux (Like Civilization:CTP, etc).

-----

I dunno. Loki seems to have done pretty well, as had ID (Marketing blunders aside). And if a game writer uses SDL that really eases the programmer's problems and handles most of the cross-platform headaches and compatibility issues for them. They can even include SDL in with their game if they want (It's less than 400k for the Linux library).

Getting games running on Linux is fscking easy. The tough part is getting people over the it-isn't-windows-it's-too-hard syndrome that holds so many of them back.

Some people have said releasing games for Linux and making it a gaming friendly platform is a Bad Thing(tm) as it detracts from the "seriousness" of the OS.

WTF?

I'm sure a lot of Linux users dont want to reboot into windows to play their games.

On the issue of paying for the games, I am totally for putting money back into the industry. The industry needs money to continue improving and releasing better games. Thats a fact. So dont "The GPL should mean all software is free!" me. Modern, mainstream games are produced with all the professionalism and equipment of a movie. Back-bedroom programmers do not have access to the technology needed to create, for example, the animations in Fifa 2001. Games need money. Pay for them!

-----

1.) On an airplane - No net access so you can watch DVD's (yep you can watch DVD's in linux), Play games or type whatever you need to type.

2.) In the car when driving you can listen to mp3's

3.) At home or in the office there is nothing a laptop can't do that a desktop can ... trust me.

Now if you've ever tried to install linux on a laptop you will find that with everything built into the mother board and lack of room to tinker with the insides ... that installing linux is not the easiest thing to do.

Solution ... instead of buying a laptop with windows pre-installed ... get linux pre-installed ... and QLITech offers this ...

And if you must have windows I am quite sure that QLITech would set you up with a dual-booting system.

So I am more than pleased to see that TuxTops legacy is still alive and not to mention all previously supported computers are still supported through QLITech ... they could have easily just taken over the notebook section, but they stayed with the commitment of TuXtops.

Lastly ... about the names ... have you not noticed the names of notebooks these days ... Protege, Satellite, iBook, or iPaq ... come on these names are no more absurd than any otherrs ... at least there's reasoning behind their names.

Of course not... run Heavy Gear wine free thanks to Loki
treke

But... but... NetHack already works. Who needs anything else?

Seriously, though, Linux does have a number of games:

• Tux Racer (previously mentioned /.)
• Various FPSes (Doom, Quake, ...)
• Pengus (a Lemmings clone)
• FreeCiv (a Civiliazation clone)
• All the stuff port by Loki games
• Star Control: TimeWarp, an unofficial, open-source game in the Star Control universe (caveat: Getting it to compile under Linux took a bit of effort when I tried, but it was doable)

That being said, I do agree that Direct3D support in Wine is A Good Thing (except for the possibility that it decreases the likelyhood of true Linux ports). But don't sell Linux short.

(Random "It probably won't work, but..." thought: Running a WinCE Dreamcast game under WINE running on Linux on a Dreamcast. That'd be cool. Useless and probably impossible, but cool none-the-less.)

The biggest issue that needs to be addressed in development is to design the games to be platform independant. You will not get any developers to create games specifically for linux, you will have to get them to create games for both linux and windows at the same time, or at least port their game from windows. The problem this leads to is that developers are not going to rewrite their game twice, hence the creation of companies like Loki, so the best thing developers need to do is to write their game for multiple platforms at the same time, using cross platform libraries(SDL is a very popular one) or better design techniques. There is alot of FUD about cross platform development (extreme performance loss, difficulty in designing...). Currently there is an interesting college research project going on that gives alot of good information about this topic. The server for research project goes up and down a lot so keep trying...

Anyone want to produce a suitable map file?

YES! I've spent more time in Tribes than any other game ever.
Bring on Tribes 2!

Well, the problem, mainly, is that there are no sales. Who's to blame for this? Loki? ID? No. Linux users. If we don't start paying for games, even the bad ones, we won't see any more come out, much less the good ones. Blizzard has said that they won't release anything for Linux until they can reasonably expect to see $1 million in sales. So the only way to fix this problem is to go out and actually buy the games. Go to Loki's homepage and order some games. Even the bad ones. Unless they start seeing some dollars here, they're going to abandon the platform entirely.

as if any major game manufacturers besides id want to port to Linux

You forgot Loki. <ot>(Too bad Tribes 2's online registration is an invasion of privacy similar to that of MS Office 2000; the program accesses the manufacturer's server when the app is first started, possibly sending personal information.)</ot>

Anyway, the goal of any for-profit corporation is to make a profit; that's where the term "bottom line"[?] comes from. If a game house can release games for Dreamcast without paying Sega royalties, the company saves several dollars on every unit shipped. This. Adds. Up. Big. Time.