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Gamespy on Linux Gaming
Grond writes "Gamespy has an editorial about the future of Linux gaming. A few interesting solutions to the sales problem are discussed." This is a topic that seems to come up about every month or two. I think there are a lot of people that would leave Windows behind entirely if a few more games were released in non-Windows versions. But as long as you have Windows, the game manufacturers know that they need not put the extra effort into releasing a non-Windows version. See "Chicken and Egg".
I know a lot of people whose big reason for not at least giving some distro of Linux a try is that they can't play their games on it.
But it's not just actually finding a copy of the game under Linux and running it, I think it's also keeping the drivers updated and patches and the other assorted things that reduce the fun of PC gaming. Not that these things would necessarily be harder under Linux - but just that they're bad enough with windows, and people assume that they're going to have the same problems, except worse, under a non-Windows OS.
Reality is indistinguishable from any sufficiently advanced fantasy.
Makes me wonder where the strange breed of creatures sometimes known as game coders fit in... "PLAY games? nah, I just code 'em"
Umm.. yeah they are. You know what they say about all code and no play.. or something like that, anyway.
Reality is indistinguishable from any sufficiently advanced fantasy.
If the Linux community could get over themselves and write a version of Direct3D for Linux this problem could be solved quite easily. The docs can be found on this website.
I believe that Mac doesn't have enough games but they're certainly not left barehanded- They have Diablo2, Starcraft, ST: Elite Force, Bulder's Gate, and FLY! just to name a few I'd be glad to have hose on Linux if someone would just port the damn things and a question-does Linux utilize all of the resources of the machine? (would you need a better machine or could you actually run it on a slower one than what you would normally need?) e-mail answer to cyberbob@dosgames.com if you would
We seldom regret saying too little but often regret saying too much.
> and is easier to code
Programming for Direct3D is not easy. To go short, it is poorly documented, requires much more code to accomplish something than in OpenGL, and is tough to learn. As an added bonus, it's not open, it's not as scalable as OpenGL, and it's not any faster than OpenGL (if you have proper OpenGL drivers, that is).
Or to quote John Carmack, "It (D3DIM) inflicts great pain and suffering on the programmers using it, without returning any significant advantages."
Here's a link to an article discussing some of these points.
To stay more ontopic, if Microsoft hadn't "embraced&extended" OpenGL into Direct3D, games would probably be written for OpenGL, and therefore be much easier to port, since OpenGL is used on many, many platforms, because it's the oldest, most mature 3D API, that's also very portable, powerful and scalable.
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"If any of you are still white, we have the cure." -Arthur C. Clarke
If I could play all of my games on Linux I would never use Windows. Problem is, using my games on Linux is a hassle. Distributions are just getting to the point of having working 3D and any decent sound support out of the box. This means that chances are more likely than not that using a game will require extensive driver upgrades. That can often mean updating libraries. Which can mean a compiler upgrade. Or even kernel updates (Granted many users do that one anyway.).
This kind of effort is too much trouble for Linux gamers. Because games keep up with technology that advances at an insane rate, new drivers are often needed, so doing the previously mentioned driver mess gets old really fast. In Windows I can toss video and sound drivers around like crazy, to the point of using different drivers for different games. Changing the drivers is thirty seconds of effort and a minute of reboot. Beats the hell out of the Linux options.
All of this also makes support a nightmare for games companies. Epic only released Unreal Tournament for Linux online, because supporting Linux for that would have been too costly.
What we really need to fix this is a standard distro games are geared to, with a good apt-get method for up/downgrading drivers with up to date drivers to work with. Make support simple. Make setting it up simple. Give the game companies something else to support, and they will come in great numbers.
Well, I wouldn't call it "willingness to dual-boot w/Windows for games" But more of a necessity... If I want to play Diablo II, then I boot into Windows, if I want to play Quake1/2/3, then I stick to Linux... I honestly think that Diablo II and the Sims are the only two reasons that I boot into windows at home... Too bad I have to deal with it at work!
The fact is that Microsoft has had lots of failures and limited successes. So far, Xbox looks to me like it's going to flop. I see little about it that is appealing, and Microsoft's tendency of copying too much from their desktops when moving to other platforms really hurts them and makes their products unattractive. But maybe it will succeed. We'll have to wait and see. But assuming that they have won this market because they announced yet another grand strategy seems pretty silly given their record.
Same thing I am doing... I still like FPS games but I mosly do it for the companies that are supporting Linux. I understand how you feel and I still got my Windows boot for little things... I feel once I get Vmware working it will be over with... I buy Linux games and Linux only, I had someone call me up today and said "Hey I heard you got Sim City 3000". I smile and said yeah I got it "But it only runs under Linux." I talk to the kid for a long time. I told him that all my games that I got run under Linux and how I don't plan on getting any Win32 games. He's interested in see my Linux box because I got one of his friends to install it not to long ago(that's a different story). Even if he had Linux I would tell him to buy the game and not copy it from me to support the Linux movement. I do it for the love of the OS, most of my friends don't understand that.
As for the games I have:
SimCity 3000
Myth2
Soldier of Fortune
Quake 3(with Team Arena)
Heretic 2
Eric's Ultimate Solitaire
My friend got me Mechwarrior 4(by Microsoft) for X-mas, so I fix that by getting him Lin4Win(by Mandrakesoft). =)He didn't install Lin4Win and I didn't install MW4, I figure I could keep it for the D3D they are adding in the WINE project.
I figure if we the people don't show our support for games on Linux then we will never get them. Most of the people including my friend hop on net and download the game that they want if they don't feel like paying for it. The internet is full with cracks and games if you know where to look.
Linux will make a great gaming platform. I could list the things...
1. No rebooting
2. No defragment tools for hardrive
3. Very tweekable and toonable.
I like these things when it comes to gaming in Linux because not only I could upgrade my kernel but also my X11 and Nvidia 3D drivers as well tweeking my system to the max. I can't wait for that wait when I could drive to BestBuy and pick up a copy of a good game. Into then I will keep order games off of Loki's website.
From Zero to Hero... Starbuck Zero
I seem to remember a lot of people saying that Windows could never give the performance that DOS could when it comes to writing games - too much OS between the game and the hardware.
How do you know they weren't right? Nobody develops for DOS anymore, so we can't really compare those versions side by side.
--
It was because of sales yes, but not because Linux people will not pay for software. I am awaiting decent 3D acceleration, as I'm sure many are. I have a GeForce 2 MX. The Quake 3 demo runs slightly faster than Windows at 800x600, but runs significantly slower than Windows at 1024x768. Got the same results under both Debian and Slackware with many different settings tweaked. Linux game sales definately aren't going to do really great even with Windows equivalent drivers, but I know myself, I would have bought Quake 3 had better drivers been available.
I'm sure as drivers get better more people will consider Linux for their gaming needs. I always look for the most FPS I can get out of my card. If I know Windows is giving me more, that's where I'll be.
Let's not forget to mention that I seen a few stores selling Quake 3 for $20 more than the Windows version.
1)There are many, many different kernel versions to develop for. It's completely unreasonable for a developer to require a specific kernel version for someone to have in order to play their game.
2)Libraries. glibc 2.0, 2.2, etc... I mean, really. Game developers do not have the time to deal with things like this - the debugging and such would take phenominally longer.
3) X sucks. Especially XFree86 (which is all I've used myself, but it sucks, and I can't imagine a commercial implimentation sucking nearly as much). It's bloated, it's memory hungry, and it leaks like a ho. That, and it's poorly suited for 3d environmental aspects - it's intended for drawing window decorations and terminals, not 3d vectors and splines.
And besides that, it's simply not a good platform because people don't use it. They're in this for money, after all. That means less people to develop for. As far as Loki is concerned, they've barely made jack.
Please go back to your little cave, little man. You remind me of the scary, technologically stupid people in my painfully dull and pointless IT class, which I wasn't able to get out of due to credit restrictions.
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CAIMLAS
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
I don't own a closed source OS. I have no use for one.
M$ stock dropped in 1/2 since last year. If you are a MCSE, you will be broke.
woops...that last post was from me...just seems like i typed in my password wrong
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right."
I'm sorry to play devil's advocate here, but that's only wishful thinking. The problem is that people buy the Windows version whether or not there is a Linux version available. If you are going to buy it anyway, why would the developer care if you have your way and get to play on Linux? It still costs money to make Linux ports, albeit less than the cost of the original development, even if the code is all that changes. The real world, unfortunately, only cares about cost versus reward, and Linux is fighting a losing battle. Let's work on proving to the businesspeople that control our world that Linux games can be profitable by buying Linux games instead of their Windows counterparts.
~mythr
P.S. I've bought all of the games that Loki has released, and though I'm glad to support Linux gaming, I'm getting REALLY sick of first person shooters. Come on, guys, try working on something that we don't already have too many of!
Preach on, brother.
You hit the nail on the head. this really is a battle between Good and Evil, and microsoft is most definately evil.
I hope most windows users come to realize what crap microsoft puts them through, and shuffle off their menial coil.
Live another day, microsofties, join the holy war against the evil stowed in redmond.
As has been said before, more variety is needed. We've got a BUNCH of action games (Heavy Gear II, Soldier of Fortune, Q3, UT, etc.) and a BUNCH of strategy games (SC3K, Heroes III, Kohan, and so forth), which is all well and good. But where's the flight sim? Where's the sports games?
There's ONE decent flight sim for Linux, but it's very difficult to set up (I've never succeeded, and I'm a Linuxer of four years). As for sports, there's only a handful of those, and not a single one is what I want, which is golf. We need these sorts of games, and others, for Linux to really become a viable commercial gaming market.
Don't get me wrong -- I love the games we've got. Heroes III, SC3K, Quake III, etc. are all games I play quite often. And I'm going to play Tribes 2 tons when it comes out. But the world needs variety, and I sure wouldn't mind it either. I've got a flight stick that's been collecting dust since I dumped Windows, because there's no flight sims I can play. And I end up playing Mario Golf all the time, because I'm without a decent computer golf game like Jack Nicklaus.
Granted, I'd rather see great games in these categories as open source than as commercial software. But either way, we need them if Linux is to succeed in the gaming market and thus, in the desktop market.
Visicalc all the way, man.
This used to be the case - early D3D was clearly an attempt to de-throne OpenGL by locking developers into a radically different API. Since then, however, both APIs have evolved dramatically to support modern graphics hardware (e.g. everyone has transitioned to vertex buffers for communicating with the card, multitexturing and texture-combination operations have been standardized, and vertex shaders are coming next).
The beautiful thing is, today Direct3D 8 and OpenGL (with extensions, especially Nvidia's) present very similar interfaces! In fact it would be quite simple to implement both as backends to a single renderer without sacrificing clean design or performance!
BTW you have to thank Nvidia for all this... They are currently driving the development of both D3D and OpenGL, so it's no wonder the interfaces have evolved towards each other.
The problem with DOS was that there was so little OS between the game and the hardware that the developer had to ship all of their own drivers, which meant only certain stuff was supported (the "SoundBlaster Problem").
When 3D cards and fancy soundcards started shipping the developers finally realized that having an OS there wasn't all that bad, and consequentally the market for different implementations of 3D and Sound hardware exploded.
It's pretty unlikely that some 3rd party DOS driver would outperform Nvidia's OpenGL OGL interface.
Speak for yourself, games are probably the primary reason I use my computer at home.
SoLo
John Susek
Most of the best games come out only in non-Windows versions. The most popular sometimes get ported to Windows. First they come out for Dreamcast, Nintendo 64, PlayStation and PlayStation 2. Eventually the poor cousin gets a port if it looks like enough people will buy it. For example, Metal Gear Solid came out on Windows PC recently, and that was launched on PlayStation only 2 years ago - hold on doesn't it only take six months for games to come out on Linux after a Windows release?
Linux ports of games are not going to make that much difference, what people tied to Windows for games need to do is buy a console. They will soon discover that they no longer need to buy a 200 dollar video card every six months (not to mention processors, RAM and bigger hard disks), and yet the graphics continue to improve with each new game release!
But now someone has created a clone of Apple's QuickDraw3D called Quesa (LGPL)
Yep, it's at http://www.quesa.org/.
It runs over OpenGL (I think also DirectX, but I could be wrong.)
We only have an OpenGL renderer at the moment, but a Direct3D one may well happen (depending on OpenGL's status on Windows). Since the higher level scene-graph stuff is completely separate from the lower level renderers, you can plug in new renderers without disturbing any of the existing code (and the renderers don't have to be interactive - there's also a raytracing plug-in renderer).
-dair
I think the "sell" concept is a foreign idea to most linux users, when most software for linux is free in the first place, and even open source to boot. If one of the most popular games in a while (Quake3 was pretty popular on Win/Mac right?) couldn't sell copies in a Linux form, I'm not so sure that any software that complies to the "expensive, boxed, heavily advertised in national magazines" form of Windows, and even Mac to an extent games, rather than the typical "free/open software, word of mouth/board/bbs" approach that most Linux software follows. It's really two different worlds of software, and gaming companies have found a large amount of success with their current model of things, and I don't see them all Open Sourcing their games (even though it might help) and I surely don't see game companies spending tons of money developing games to give them away for free. But since that's exactly what a great deal of applications programmers for linux do on a daily basis, it's pretty much expected that someone who dares to charge large amounts for software isn't going to get a lot of business right? Besides, anyone who is a true hardcore gamer already has a windows partition for the games, if not a whole separate machine since the good games don't come out for Mac or Linux except on rare occasions where they promptly tank and are found on ebay selling for 1/2 price a month later. It's almost canibalizing your own market to spend time, resources, money and programers to port a game to linux, or even develop one exclusively for Linux (or Mac for that matter, what's the last Mac-only game?).
Actually both Mandrake and Suse are making money with linux. Suse closed out most of their USA office because that one office was not very profitable and are concentrating mainly in europe.
Also look at zope by digital creations. That is open source and they do make a profit off of it. In fact it is far better now and used by more people then it was when it was closed.
So stop spreading FUD troll. In just about all environments most businesss go out of business for having bad business models. Open Source stuff is no different. Most companies tried to sell on hype rather then a real service and they are dieing. Just like any brick and mortar store that would try the same thing.
Computer modeling for biotech drug manufacturing is HARD!
BTW: There's a solution to the Chicken and Egg problem.
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Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Of course we all know how that turned out... Maybe the US government should intervene ;-)
--- If something doesn't feel right, you're probably not feeling the right thing.
"The gFroce3 comming out on the Mac FIRST."
Let me clarify this, since alot of zealots have this wrong.
Mac was the first OEM to sign up for GeForce3.
PC enthusiasts will be able to buy a GeForce3 before Macs come out with them.
PC users will have GeForce3 before Mac users.
Macs will be the first OEM to sell them with a system.
The problem is that most game manufacturers choose to program in the platform dependent DirectX instead of the platform independent OpenGL. DirectX is a classic example of Microsoft's "embrace and extend" philosophy in that it is less flexible than OpenGL but integrates well, and is easier to code, for the Windows platform.
Game developers wonder why they should deal with a more difficult API (even though there are some nifty effects that can be obtained--see Quake), when there is only a limited market for games on the Linux platform. Since most people who run Linux are already demonstrating your willingness to dual-boot w/Windows for games, porting games to Linux will not sell many more copies. There is simply no compelling economic reason to port.
Lenny
ByteMyCode.com: A Web 2.0 code sharing community.
I am trying to kick my MS habit, but games are the thing that have kept me tied to Windows.
But after getting SuSe 7.1 and upgrading to the latest drivers for my GeForce 2, I'm impressed with my first foray into linux gaming and Unreal Tournament.
Installing SuSe 7.1 was about as difficult as installing Windows ME. Upgrading the XFree 4.02 drivers was pretty simple, with a little help from SuSe's Linux Knowledge Portal http://portal.suse.de/en/
It was about as easy to update them as Windows drivers, and just as 'intuitive', which is to say, not at all.
There were a few problems with a couple of the textures, but overall, it looked good and ran fast. Then again, I was used to the hi-res textures I installed for my Windows setup. (I know you can set them up for Linux, in fact, it was available in Linux before most Windows setups, but I didn't want to search up how it was done, and felt I was doing good just to get the regular way running nicely)
But the main point is I installed it, ran the sucker, got hooked and played last night for about six hours, two or three of them trying to kill freakin' Xan in the finale. Tonight I got home from work, and in a mere two hours, finally beat the bastard. I can't remember when I was that excited to beat a game! I never did beat the cheating bastard in my many, many hours of playing under Windows.
I'm thinking it is some kind of omen for linux gaming in general
All my gaming money will now go for Linux games. How can I do this? Well, I've really been wanting to play less games and immerse myself into the linux world, so if I just play Linux games I'm kind of learning Linux, right?
(Quake III on Linux? Not for me. I don't like the game. Plus after just experiencing my first real quake with the Pacific Northwest earthquake earlier this week (While trying to climb Mount St. Helens no less) anything with the name 'Quake' is not gonna sit too well with me.)
Work Hard, Rock Hard, Eat Hard, Sleep Hard, Grow Big, Wear Glasses if You Need 'Em.
If there was the glut of fast, fun, games for Linux as there was for windows, I'd drop windows completely.
:)
I run '98 (A legit copy, even, Gah!), and run xwin32. Almost all my computer work is through xwin32. (its a pretty damn neat setup, actually). I only keep Windows around to play games, and to occasionally run photoshop (I need to write photoshop tutorials as well as GIMP, so don't hassle me on that one.)
Unforunately, all my forays into Linux gaming have shown that the Linux version of the game is slow, klunky, and occasionally buggier than the windows version. I've purchased two LInux games so far, and I wont again for a little time until that particular market stabailises, and decent graphics accelleration happens for Linux.
I know full well that that isn't Linux's fault, but the graphics cards manufacturers fault for either not supplying drivers at the same time as they do for Windows, or releasing the specs for their cards. But... I'm not going to put up with slow games just because of this.
So... I'll just sit here... waiting for the revolution to come
this is just an open question, I look forward to all replies. How willing are you to pay for shareware games? If a company released ep.1 of a game for free, with eps 2 and 3 purchasable as shareware for $20 or $30, would you go for it?
This was the situation years ago in the dos games market, and it worked out pretty well. We got all manner of good games, like Commander Keen and Wolfenstein 3D.. but would the same rules apply in the Linux games market?
Furthermore, would you register closed-source games? Would you expect to receive source upon registering? For most purposes (thinking from a game-developer point of view now), keeping the source locked up doesn't really matter much, cause the value of the game is in the data- the artwork and levels the creators have built. The most you could do with the source would be to build cheats into the game, and if you've paid for the levels that's pretty much cool with us. Would you pay for games that weren't GPLd?
(We're not going to release any of our games under the GPL, although we don't mind releasing the source...)
Thanks much,
Steve
They bought the original windows-only Direct3D (which sucked mightily), but it was developed from the original sucky version in-house to the modern version which is superior to OpenGL in many ways.
There was never an open standard to corrupt.
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is that it's designed with a very specific purpose in mind. To provide a framework to do 'proper' polygonal rendering.
Direct3D on the other hand, is a thin layer over 3D hardware. Microsoft, as usual, is very pragmatic. If some video-card company comes out with a crazy feature like an 8 Dimentional Voxel based chip(or more realisitically a ParticleEngine(tm) chip), it'll get incorporated into D3D, and Microsoft will write a software version for cards that don't. It doesn't matter that the technology will be dead in six months.
OpenGL, on the other hand, has been criticized because they're slow to add extentions. But the OpenGL additude is that it does basically everything it's supposed to anyway. Some crazy 8D Voxels or particle engines have nothing to do with Polygon rendering. True or not, it prevents you from using all the cool new tricks on those $400 dollar videocards.
Trolls throughout history:
Jonathan Swift
all the linux guys i know don't spend a dime on linux software, but they spend 200-300 a year on windoz games.
... 1989 or so. i will never use MS products for the rest of my life, so i guess some rabid MS supporter will mod me down, but whatever...i hate to see people i love suffer.
.. i also bought some cds from cheapbytes, so i hit my target. i bought no OS last year, cuz i was horribly disappointed in the RH7.0 iso.
as you say, it's chicken and egg. they want the platform to be more viable for gaming (3d audio, better sound/video support out of the box) before they will even download a game demo.
myself, i've spent no money whatsover on MS products since they fucked my brother's company back in
i try to spend $100 a year on linux or linux products. last year i bought q3, which is great, but i had to surf the web, do upgrades, etc. to get it to work. i also bought mythII which is okay
i just had a look at lokigames.com, and they have FOURTEEN titles available for linux...the equation is really simple, folks...if you don't buy linux products, linux will die. take that one to heart.
if linux dies, you will be playing rent-a-app from MS in just a few years...for the rest of your lives. you might want to take action to prevent that scenario.
no, i don't work for loki and am not in the gaming industry.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
I don't like to say this, but making games for Linux just doesn't make sense financially. In most cases money will be lost, not gained.
Of all the components in Microsoft Office, Access is the only one that is outclassed by its free software counterparts. Go grab a copy of PostgreSQL or MySQL and go to town. They don't have graphical SQL statement builders (that I am aware of), but they also don't have Access' tendency to distribute your data randomly about on the disk. These are "real" databases.
Linux Games Fail Becuase of Sales. Period. Look at Quake 3. NO ONE BOUGHT IT. Same goes for the mac. Don't get caught up in the DX vs GL hoopla, if the numbers where there, people would port/rework or use layers to get the software to the platform. I used to work for a major game developer. I personally worked on aspects of the Linux versions of our games. Unlike most of the /. audience, at least the vocal folk, I have no personal vendetta against any OS. (ok, maybe OS/2...).
Quake 3 was a great example. A triple-A game that shipped at the same time (or almost the same time) as the PC version and the Linux sales were startingly low. This totally enforced the standard Linux sterotype --- Linux people will not pay for software other than distributions.
All along people kept saying give us a quality game and we'll buy it. They did and you didn't. Finis.
Barring the Everquest model, how can these principles be applied to make money off of games?
Maybe 1-900-HELP-ME numbers, for people too silly to search for "walkthrough foo"?
Of course, there's yet another article about Linux that won't render correctly in Konqueror.
Actually, I might be inclined to argue the exact opposite, in that the games that you need to have a desktop system for have up until now been networked shooters and RTS's. I don't know anyone who claims that a shooter works will on a platform, and the XBox isn't shipping with a mouse (amongst other things) AFAIK. Frankly, up until now networking has been an issue, and the lack of a rich control set is the other. Also, the relative nastiness of televisions as monitors is another detractor from certain kinds of games.
But, those games that are good on platforms are usually much better than the port to a PC. The value of a dedicated machine. I think in the end the XBox is going to flop hard.
IP is just rude.
Is there any torture so subl
The one phrase you use sums up a whole other set of problems with games on linux:
... "
"Sure, if game writers started making their games available for linux i might try them (not buy them though)
I'm not saying you are like this, but a lot of open source people seem to be of the philosophy that software that costs money is evil. EVERYTHING should be free. This is, of course, absolute and total bullshit. But that doesn't matter to them.
So, why would you try and make games for an OS that is:
1) Mostly populated by programmers, not gamers.
2) Has a rep as being a server OS, not a desktop OS.
3) Used by people who don't like paying for software. And prolly wouldn't pay for the games even if they did come out for linux.
Doesn't sound like a very hard decision to me. Just don't make games for it. It's not worth it.
This of course can change if:
1) Non-programmers/hackers/syadmins start using linux.
2) We develop a rep as a desktop OS via gnome/kde
3) Actually buy the comercially available linux software.
Justin Dubs
Tux Games has sent you two emails this week alone.
One of them I sent personally.
I suggest you reconfigure your mail server.
Tux Games. Your complete source for native Linux games.
Hey, games ARE important. The good oldies work with DOS and the new ones work on Linux (Thanks to Loki and others). A few interesting games run on windoze, but there's a cure for that too: wine But you're right. Stop using M$-Soft/Hardware anyway.
i know i'm speaking for myself here, but so far i've paid for 6 games for linux, and i play em almost daily. i'm definitely gonna shell out the money for tribes 2. currently the only game i play regularly that's not from loki is quake 3, and that's only cause i bought the win32 version first. also, bow down to nvidia for making decent opengl drivers for xf86
Rock over London, Rock On Chicago
It's simple maths. Developers aren't going to convince publishers to give them money to develop a linux version, especially if they want other features in the game that that money could give them. Why ask for an extra 2 months salary for a linux version when you can ask for an extra months salary for more levels/added polish.
This is probably asking too much for Slashdot readers to take with an unbiased mind (and without flaming) but you need to have a shift in mindset. Why demand every publisher/developer make a linux version. Instead, all of that effort could be put into making D3D work under Wine, thereby making EVERY windows game run under Linux.
I know I'd be running linux as my primary OS if I could run any game I choose under linux, instead of having to get linux-specific versions. Instead, it's been relegated to my firewall and for mucking around with, which is a real shame.
1) Kernel versions.. they aren't making device drivers, they are making games. I know many an app that will compile just as well on 2.0.x as it will on 2.4.x. 2) There are no problems with libraries. Let the companies use the versions they want. You can have glibc 2.0, 2.1, and 2.2 on the same system without a single problem. Heck, even throw some libc5 libraries on there for safety's sake. This is why linux has library versioning like it does. 3) Stop using XFree86 3.x. XFree86 4.0.2 is a VERY nicely done version which has rarely caused a problem for me. And with things such as DRI and EVAS coming out, along with SDL, X has become something you can draw windows decorations AND 3D vectors on. So why don't YOU go back to YOUR little cave, and stop complaining about how linux should pretend like it's still the unix of old. Enjoy the modernization it is recieving.
Are you sure? you may want to check up on that.
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CAIMLAS
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
this is simple stop using windows. Games are not that important.
Well as for promoting Linux, we're trying.
I'm a member of the Linux Users of Victoria (here in Australia) and our Games Sig does all it can to help people run games on their Linux platform. From helping people simply install Linux, helping with driver issues and configuration, general information about games and hardware, and of course, fragging each other silly in LANs.
As it is, we're running a LAN soon called Blast Radius 3 that is catering specifically to gaming under Linux. We're allowing Windows and Mac users as well, but the idea is to showcase Linux as a Gamers Platform, and give them a taste of all the things we can do under Linux.
So do your part, Linux gamers. Organise a special interest group specifically for Games at your User Group. Start organising Tech Nights to help people get their systems up and running, informal and then formal LANs, and help other people catch the fever that is Linux Gaming.
I think that Linux is an excellent platform for game programmers and gamers alike. The reason that programmers avoid Linux, is that they think that the Linux community pressures programmers to license their code under the GPL, or a similar license. However, As Loki Games have proven; Linux is an excellent platform for game development, and money CAN be made.
Well, I'm not saying all game coders are using linux, but I consider myself a game coder, I'm playing games and I'm also using linux and loving the freedom I get to mess with the system.
So from my point of view he's just a one track mind who belives no one can play games and be into the techie side of computers too.
If you read the Loki forums about SMAC a company developer says that the game is finished, and has been for six months, but that they are having "packaging problems." They've used that phrase for six months without actually explaining what they mean exept to say that lawyers are involved.
This brings up another issue, I just gave up and bought SMAC for Windows for $10US at Office Depot while the Linux version is still priced at $50.00. Games have such a short shelf life that by the time Loki gets them ported the Windows version is already in the bargin bins.
I realize that the ./ tradition is to comment without actually reading the subject article but I'd like to read this and boy are those fonts tiny in Netscape.
Basically, those games that are written to use OpenGL have rather easy development paths to operating systems other than Windows.
By binding Direct3D so tightly to the Win32 API, they make porting the appliation to a non-Windows API much more difficult.
And the same goes with Macintosh computers - Apple doesn't have its own proprietary graphics API; they use OpenGL. And, just about any game you see in OpenGL appears on a Mac in no time at all. Loki can port the same app to Linux without much trouble either.
For cross-platform game development, we have to start seeing more use of OpenGL, rather than D3D.
-- Sometimes you have to turn the lights off in order to see.
Linux is my game. Figuring out more and more about how it works, hacking the kernel, delving deeper into linux's insides proves to be more fun to me than most games. If all i wanted to do on my computer was play games, then i would probably like windows better than linux.
I do, however, play games like minesweeper clones, nethack, etc...non-graphics intensive games that are fun and work in linux.
Sure, if game writers started making their games available for linux i might try them (not buy them though), but if they don't...i have no problem with that either.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right."
...might be that I don't have to spend much on a PS2 or N64 to get a decent gaming experience. But if I want a good Lose32 gaming box, I have to plunk down some hefty cash for a video card, cash for plenty of RAM, cash for cache (sorry)...
With my Linux box, however, I can simply fire up KJumpingCube and lose just as many hours of time, for much less money. Holy code that game is so addicting. Between that and FoulEggs I might never leave the keyboard again.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
This is the second or third editorial I've seen that's cited Quake3 on linux as being a "failure". I'm honestly curious about this: I was unable to find the slashdot link that discussed it, but I recall that Quake 3 turned a profit.
By definition, profit is making more money than you spend, so I don't really see how q3 failed. True, it wasn't a huge or impressive profit, but it keeps you in business, yes?
From what I've heard, TuxGames is profiting as well; if everything's making money, why all the negative press about linux games being unprofitable?
-Denor
I bought a windows version of Q3 as it was the only one in the store, I then downloaded the binaries to convert, from loki. Same with UT.
indrema.
I don't know about you, but _I'm_ buying Tribes 2 for Linux. Even though I really have had a difficult time getting hardware acceleration supported on my G400. I'll buy it as soon as it hits the shelves and figure out how to make hardware acceleration work later.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
Realize that Windows caught on in the first place because unix is difficult to use (relative to the user, of course)... linux was designed to be CLONE of *nix.
Not a clone of Windows.
The problem with Linux Gaming is that hardware support can seem esoteric, or copletely foreign to a windows user. I got a computer that I installed Linux on a year and a half ago. I couldn't get the sound or modem to work (The modem sure looked like a Hardware modem, its an 8-bit 28.8). The thing is, most windows users won't want to deal with all the levels of hardware and software issues. Windows users (Hey, I tried Linux, but my box sucked, so I am gonna build another one) are used to installing the whole shebang at once, or having it preinstalled. If you gave me a SBL Value, a GeForce 2 GTS, a P!!! 600EB, hardware modem, and a good mobo, I still probably couldn't configure it right out of the box. Window seems to stifle people into thinking that they can't mess with the settings without breaking something. I tried my hand at installing Wine on my Linux box (running rh61). It installed fine. After I figured out the CD was ISO-9906 (or was it ISO-9960?, seriously). And on previous knowledge was I only able to find and modify Fstab. And the CD was burnt on a Windows box of my friends. Once I finally did get Wine installed, I set the reg files up for it. I tried my hand at installing StarCraft. Unfortunately, it didn't work, only because of the crappy sound card. I think what I am trying to say, is that Windows users want to be able to have the crappy, bug-ridden, Microsoft-written code because of the drivers. The crappiest software based card will work find under windows, yet die under linux. They don't want to have to mess around in Fstab, deal with mounting, installing, and in general, figuring things out. Unless a game is made solely for Linux, with a perfect installer that works on every machine, no matter how cheap, old or beat up, then you won't get nearly as many people to migrate to Linux for gaming.
> I think there are a lot of people that would leave Windows behind entirely if a few more games were released in non-Windows versions.
I agree completely but let's not discount M$ Office. I switched to Linux a couple years ago and was pleasantly surprised to learn that ICQ, Quake, e-mail, and IRC had equal or superior clients using Linux. However I was man-handled into switching back to Windoze because I rely on an Access-97 database on a daily basis.
Very frustrating, Linux is 95% of the way to being the perfect end-user operating system, but the last hurdle is unsurmountable due to proprietary software...
---
its that simple. just don't use windows to play games. use linux instead.
Is your company running tools written by ma
I actually like to use Linux because it's a free alternative to Windows, which does almost everything Windows does, and in some cases does things better..
If Linux becomes successful in the gaming market, there will be thousands and thousands of people coming on board.. and I will no longer be 1337!!
I guess I'll have to install a different OS then.. :)
f u cn rd ths, u r prbbly a lsy spllr.
One of the problems with Linux gamming is Loki another is TuxGames.Com.
Why? Because Loki hasn't shipped ANY new games in months and won't say why. Tuxgames.com won't answer emails and every item I have order from them arives beat up.
I have bought every linux game published except for SoF.
Re: your comment...
Unforunately, all my forays into Linux gaming have shown that the Linux version of the game is slow, klunky, and occasionally buggier than the windows version. I've purchased two Linux games so far, and I wont again for a little time until that particular market stabailises, and decent graphics accelleration happens for Linux.
What card are you having the particular problem with, and what basic setup do you have? A lot of the video drivers had lots of issues, and X4 and new driver architechures have fixed a lot of this.
Stock-standard distributions that were released 9-12 months ago are just not going to have the stuff that works well, but then again, how many times on Windows do you need to install new video drivers, run Windows Update, or install new versions of graphics API's (DirectX)?
I've got a Nvidia GeForce DDR (32Mb) and on my K6/2-550 I used to get better (on average) frame rates than I used to get under Windows. Parsec just blows me away, with TWICE the frame rate as I get under the Windows version. Quake3Arena and Unreal Tournament run a lot more stable under Linux than they have ever done under Windows on my machine. YMMV, of course.
There are lots of people willing to help you get your setup working, so check out your local User Group and see what they can do for you. You might be pleasantly suprised.
Blast Radius 3 - http://br3.dual-enforcers.net/ - Australian LAN showcasing Linux
That would certainly stir things up in the gaming community. The ability to play all Direct3D games in Linux would certainly allow some users to switch to Linux entirely.
Personally, I dual boot Linux and win2k but if I could play games in Linux, I would switch entirely. One can only wonder what one would do with Linux using 100% of a 30 gig hard drive.
I dont see Linux becoming a threat to Windows on the desktop at all. With DirectX 8.0 coming out and Nvidia's new Geforce3 about to hit the market, it would only get all the more better with the new Vertex Shading capabilities and such. I am not downplaying the fact that OpenGL would very well pick up, and with ID touting OpenGL as the only API they would ever code against (although I would only take this with a pinch of salt), its sure to get interesting.
Linux could however be used for multiplayer games for them to run on a rock solid, stable and scalable server. I just dont see it making a niche for itself on the desktop market.
Rapid Nirvana
This already occurs. Take a look at the server-browser in Half-Life; most of the servers are running Linux. But, is there a Linux version of the client? Sorry, bud, only Windows.
I mean, how many people didn't think twice about getting a PlayStation or N64 just to play games? Did you think that getting one was betraying Linux in some way?
I'm no MS supporter, but XBox is going to change almost everything in less than a year. The game market for the Mac and Linux is going to dry up, because you can target Win32 and get XBox as well. That's going to be hard to resist, esp. if the XBox is as cheap as everyone expects.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
Just for additional background, Michael Vance (Linux HG2's lead coder) had this to say about the process:
:wq
Games for Linux would certainly give that added push, but I don't see it happenning very fast. First, the companies that write, sell and profit from computer games need an incentive to write for them.... from their perspective, Linux is about "free" and "open." The reality is, that I'd be willing to pay for software (games or applications for an operating system that was free, easy to install, very secure, and extremely user-friendly.
The above ain't Linux. Yet.
With the development of user-friendly software like Eazel and increased focus on the installation interfaces of Linux, more and more Windows users will be willing to make the switch. Especially if Microsoft makes the drastic changes it's rumoured to be planning, such as yearly subscription, elimination of DOS commands/command prompts, etc.
I've installed Linux several times over the last few years, and with each new install, it just gets easier and less painful. There was a time when I really liked wading through how-tos and doing trial and error steps to get my video card set just right, but these days I'm too busy for that crap. I want to install it and occasionally update it. I'm starting to understand something I always criticized newbies for... most folks want to have a tool they can use like a car. My wife's as good a driver as I am (don't let her know I concede that point, though), but she can't change the oil. It drives her nuts that I'd want to rather than pay $40 at Jiffy Lube.
Microsoft won't always be king of the hill, and I can't wait to see them put on a level playing field with an equal or superior operating system. But I have to acknowledge that they got there because they had some insight as to what folks wanted on their computers... I was one of the few geeks that was happy with a dos prompt... like all of the other geeks, I dropped to dos for YEARS (and still) to perform quick operations... Most people don't want to even see that black screen... it scares them!
I don't play a lot of games, but I would love to have Tie-vs-Xwing and Jedi on Linux! If so, Linux would be booted much more than Win... In fact, beyond my need to use Office 2k, I wouldn't need Win for anything!
Cheers
cfeagans
Gaming under linux will be a painful experiance at best, so long as Windows dominates in marked share. Just look at Apple. Their hardware is definitly capable of performing on par with PC's, however they always get only a few ports, and never in a timely manor (Q3A being an exception). Game developers want the most bang for their buck, and having to stretch their resources thin to provide developement for alternative OS's/hardware just doesn't add up. Why do you think loki and the like handle most of the ports?
-- mikeDOTd
I'm willing to pay for Linux games. I'm not so sure the Open Source model can effectively compensate for the kind of effort that goes into making games work.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
- Quake series - 1st person shooter
- Heretic 2 - 3rd person shooter^Wslasher
- Tribes 2 - ??? person shooter
- Soldier of Fortune - 1st person shooter
- Heavy Gear 2 - Looks like an FPS, but supposedly doesn't play like one
See a pattern here? Granted, there are a few exceptions (Civ: CTP, HOMM3), but the commecial Linux gaming market is thoroughly dominated by FPS (and derivatives). FPS is fine for the occasional stress relief, but some of us prefer other types of games for serious play.Where are the good strategic and tactical wargames for Linux? Not empire-building (Civ) and without silly restrictions on moving your units (HOMM), but solid wargames, whether real-time (Total Annihilation), turn-based (Steel Panthers), or somewhere in between (M.A.X., Shogun: Total War).
I know they're out there for Windows (I see them on the shelf every time I walk by and try to convince myself that they'd be worth the trouble of rebooting to play), but the commercial Linux gaming market seems to only be interested in cranking out Yet Another FPS.
There's more than one type of gamer. If the commercial Linux gaming companies want to expand, maybe they should think about porting more than one type of game.
Instead of making GameX (Windows) and GameX (linux)
I have a MUCH better idea, and aparently so did ID
with q1 and q2.
Make your game modular.
Where, I install GameX on win, and download linux binaries, and symlink to the win directory.
C:/quake2/baseq2
-or-
have setup for win and setup for linux. and include the linux binaries on the cd as well. THAT way, developers sell more games to more people, because they dont have to choose
'Well, do i want to play this with my hardware supported for win, or with my slightly less supported harware under linux' or maybe your hardware is BETTER supported with linux. it happens. And after youre done deciding, you can always choose to 'try out' the other version. if it works better use that, otherwise back to old.
this way, theres a merged market. and everyone is happy.
I played q2 on windows. Found out there were linux binaries and a HOWTO. 10-minutes-later i had
q2 working under linux too.
Why can't Everything be that Simple?
(assuming no D3D and wierd proprietary stuff is there to interfere, yes i read the whole 'GL-D3d people dont code GL' string)
And while your at it, ya mind porting 3D Studio Max, all acceptiable plug ins, Rhino3d, Autocad 2000, and Adobe Photoshop (Corel SUCKS, sorry to say it folks, but Adobe has them beaten silly as far as interface and feature sets go. From the first second that I opened up Adobe Photoshop I knew how the use the thing, it has a great UI!)
Yah, some games WOULD be nice, but the main problem is not games being ported, but rather that with Windows a person can download a random file from the internet and be pretty damn sure that after being unarchived, that the damn thing is going to run on Windows! (what was the latest percentage, 90% or something?) Granted, Windows itself may not run, but as long as Kernal32.dll holds itself together (not to mention explorer.exe) things will run on it.
Err, no waiting eagerly for a Linux port, or setting up WINE, or any other such delays or work arounds.
There is definintly something to be said for being able to go online and download the latest and greatest Product Demo and being able to hit Setup and have it run. That is what Linux needs, MORE ORIGINAL RELEASE MAINSTREAM PROGRAMS.
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
Unfortunately, not just a few. I would like more games spanning more genres. Not just first-person shooting (Quake) or strategy (FreeCiv).
Where are the adventure games, like Escape from Monkey Island (not just MUSHes and MOOs)? What about flight simulators? No one can hack a decent flight sim that has only some of the features of Fly!/MS Flight Simulator/Jane's?
Even a game like The Sims would be wonderful, which defies classification. Right now, all we have are games that developers wantto develop, like FreeCiv. That's fine, but if you want more gamers to come to the platform, those same developers are going to have to branch into new areas.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Until the Linux game market matures, there's not going to be much demand for standalone Linux versions of games. In the meantime they should ship the Linux versions with the Windows versions. Linux users will buy a game if it is supported under Linux, but since most people still keep a Windows partition, a lot of them will not buy a Linux version given the choice between getting the Windows-only version and the Linux-only version. It's fantastic when companies offer Linux versions of their games, but the market forces are such that there's still not much of an audience for standalone, Linux-only versions of games.
"I think there are a lot of people that would leave Windows behind entirely if a few more games were released in non-Windows versions." That is complete bullshit as evident by the Macintosh platform. Mac has been around ~ as long as windows. And you can play almost all of the big time releases on Mac NOW. You cannot say "more people would leave Windows behind entirely if a few more games where release in non-Windows versions" because they have been for years.
What in the world IS happening with the Alpha Centauri port? I was planning on buying it at some point. Loki? Hello???
/me will also buy SimCity 3K at some point. Really. Sorry it hasn't happened yet, guys. Hope it's selling well...
I'm coming into this discussion a little late, but there seem to be two divided opinions here: "the Linux gaming market sucks when the Linux versions of games ends up available on shelves later and costs more" and "the Linux gaming market sucks when Linux versions of games are available as a free download/patch, preventing a viable business from forming around shipping nice, supported versions". These seem mutually exclusive to me. A Linux retail box is going to get lower priority from distributors and less in the way of discount promotions from retailers. A free download (or even an "unsupported" install on a hybrid CD) will be available day 1 at the Windows price, but don't try calling a mainstream publisher for Linux support and don't expect anyone to purchase a Linux-only version a month later at a higher cost.
So, which would people rather see happen? I'm not just asking for rhetorical purposes, btw. (But no, I'm not announcing anything related to Linux except my own personal interest in it as I sit at home in my robot pajamas on a Saturday morning drinking orange juice and reading slashdot!)
As a Mac user, I can tell you that it takes more than just having games--or even having MS Office. Although we have lots of good games--we like to think that Windows serves as our crap filter--Macs still don't have a large marketshare.
There are disadvantages to the Mac platform that Linux doesn't have, sure, but Macs still suffer from a "chicken and egg" perspective--not enough software, or so its said, so fewer people buy Macs, so less software is made. Mostly, all FUD--I've never had a really hard time finding software that I need, or want, including games.
Another interesting thing, is that, even with OpenGL supported on the Mac, some games ported from D3D to OpenGL--are only released as a Linux version, not also as a Mac version. Do developers really think that there are more game-buying (like with real money) Linux users than there are game-buying Mac users?
--
$tar -xvf
My graphics card is a voodoo banshee. Sure, I certainly agree that my attempts were around a year ago, and things may have improved markedly since then.
Every year or so, I get sick of windows and install linux on my desktop again... with the release of KDE 2.1, I'm about ready to give things another try.
I mean, if even Quake3 doesn't sell for crap on linux, how can you blame companies for not making the plunge?
Tribes 2 is the next major title coming up, it's one of the biggest games coming down the pike, and they are going to have a near simultaneous Linux release.
Personally, I'd love to see it do extremely well, but I have a feeling, as others probably share, that Linux users don't buy games for linux, and Tribes2 is going to fail on Linux, and leave future developers with little chance of making that jump.
________
You know I find that comment regarding the stability of X v4 rather amusing. I have tried to upgrade to v4 several times now, on a Diamond Multimedia 2000 Pro (?) and a VooDoo Rush (With ATI 2d chipset) - and both times during the Mandrake-7.2 install I get a complete freeze??? WTF? Aren't we supposed to be making progress here? Both cards work fine in v3....
S.t.e.v.e.
MS has already said they weren't going to let devs go "port happy" and port all the popular PC games to the xbox without siginificant improvements. Also, this has been said a million times, but Windows-PC games are not compatible with the xbox at all. Developing a game with the WinPC's DirectX and the Xbox's directX will be similar, but there are still some significant differences.
OddManIn: A Game of guns and game theory.
How about one which doesn't contain any reference to that penguin?
Linux users will have to get used to the concept of paying for software. We aren't use to this!!! There will be no money for the companies to produce games for Linux if all we do is rip them.