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As for the people who think that Microsoft is going to get into losses because of this, you should _really_ cut down on your dope. In case you had forgotten, Microsoft has not traditionally been defeated by superior products, and they are actually working on a system of their own for providing a rich user experience through the web (XAML).

Whoa there, buddy! Let's get your information correct.

First, AJAX is Microsoft technology, except that they called it "remote scripting" back in 1999. That's when Microsoft introduced the XMLHTTP ActiveX object. Microsoft didn't really promote the technology all that well, and up until a few years ago (2003? 2002?) the other browsers didn't have a competing mechanism, but you really can't take this one away from Microsoft -- they did it first, even if they didn't capitalize on it like Google has done.

Second, XAML has nothing to do with the web, unless you think that XML is somehow tied to the web. XAML is an XML-based markup language for describing visual pieces of an application (like windows, for example). It's backed by .NET code, and a XAML-created app runs locally as a desktop app. There's nothing web-related about it.

Here's some food for thought: imagine a simple instant messaging program, written in your favorite programming languages. One the connection to your chat party is established, all you need to do is send the text the user types, and wait for incoming text and display it. Now, imagine implementing the same sort of application in an environment where the only possible communication is you making an HTTP request and receiving an XML response.

You mean something like Web Messenger (probably not the first online chat tool, but one of the best I've used)? Not only does it do the simple chatting you mentioned, it even goes so far as to implement the same "user is typing a message" notifications you'd get from the rich client. That way you know if the person on the other end is idling, or if they're just writing a long reply and that's why they're not saying anything. Also, just because "AJAX" contains the word XML doesn't mean you have to use XML. You can request HTML pages, text, data, whatever -- XMLHTTP/XmlhttpRequest is misnamed because it's just a way to make an http request. That XML is usually returned means nothing (and in fact may mean "the developer is an idiot", because there's no reason to use XML for many simple pieces of data).

With that said, I agree with your premise that AJAX apps will never replace desktop apps. You just don't quite understand the technology, and thus you've given a bad example.

The main reason the internet caught on is because it had a consistant UI that everyone, even non-computers users, could use.

• All links worked the same way and had the same right click menu.
• The back button could get you back if you get lost
• You could bookmark what you're interested in.

AJAX combines all the inconsistancies and learning curves of desktop applications with all the limitations (bandwidth, limited access to local storage) of the web.

Please make it stop.

More information of hidden black holes and their discovery.

A still image of the Prandtl-Glauert cloud accompanies the "Discovery's clouds of glory over" story at the MSNBC.com "Cosmic Log." And on July 16, 1969, the Apollo 11 Saturn V rocket was photographed wearing a splendid white condensation cloud, possibly of the Prandtl-Glauert type. Seeing stuff like this sort of makes you want to take a course in fluid mechanics.

"Spooky" is what happens in the transonic regime (speeds hovering just above and below Mach 1). "Cool" is the visible stuff that sometimes pops out and, if lucky, is recorded for the rest of us to see and marvel at.

A still image of the Prandtl-Glauert cloud accompanies the "Discovery's clouds of glory over" story at the MSNBC.com "Cosmic Log." And on July 16, 1969, the Apollo 11 Saturn V rocket was photographed wearing a splendid white condensation cloud, possibly of the Prandtl-Glauert type. Seeing stuff like this sort of makes you want to take a course in fluid mechanics.

"Spooky" is what happens in the transonic regime (speeds hovering just above and below Mach 1). "Cool" is the visible stuff that sometimes pops out and, if lucky, is recorded for the rest of us to see and marvel at.

Invading Iraq was Bush's genius stroke in the G-WOT? Now we're fighting them "over there", so we won't have to fight them over here, because terrorists can't hijack planes and slam them into buildings. Everyone agrees that these Patriotic efforts are making us safer. Don't you feel safer, knowing that the FBI will outsource to China the grunt work of monitoring these backdoors? Then they'll swing into action, and save us all.

Its really puzzling; people here seem quite desperate to spin any story about ms in a negative light going to the point of even lying -blatently in order to cast defamation.

Microsoft should start taking queue from apple, and start send in the lawyers to request corrections...

a posting that's pro-Windows is news, kinda like a Bigfoot sighting

What about a microsoft news bigfoot sighting? : )

If you even have to ask youself this, you shouldn't be here you should be here or possibly here

What do you expect from a guy who thinks SpongeBob is gay?

Out of all places to link a news story like this we choose an overclocking webpage? Irregardless, they have decided not to repair the blanket per MSNBC: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8826983/

I sent a two part answer on this to Alan Boyle at MSNBC. The first part appears here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3217961/

"Dennis McClain-Furmanski, Arlington, Texas: "Bush isn't wrong: Both sides ought to be properly taught. I'm only a scientist. I'm not qualified to teach religion, only science. Science is the name for a body of knowledge, as well as the name for the process by which it is accumulated. This process is what I do. If someone can give me a replicable, independently verifiable and, most importantly, falsifiable hypothesis based on intelligent design, I can do this process called science, and add the results to the body of knowledge called science. Until it can be brought down to my level, it doesn't belong in my classroom, it belongs where its experts can teach it properly -- in church. ..."

The second part, which he chose not to print was:

"Now, if they'd like to work out a time sharng agreement, I'd be all for it. They can have one of my classes per semester if I can have one of their church services per semester, including choir and organ. I've always wanted to work with musical background. "In the beginning was the Higgs field, and then symmetry was broken." [Cue Handel's 'Hallelujah']. Somehow I think this is as likely to come about as that falsifiable hypothesis.

Is GWB the result of intelligent design?

That seems unlikely http://slate.msn.com/id/76886/.

It must have been evolution...

"When scientists talk about a theory, they mean something far different from the everyday understanding of a guess or a supposition. "'Theory' means a logical, tested, well-supported explanation for a great variety of facts," the National Center for Science Education says. The "theory" of evolution is like the "theory" of gravity -- it is as close to a fundamental truth as anything can be."http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7013405/page/3/

Couldn't have said it better myself.

this site is not an officially supported site. it is an incubation experiment and doesn't represent any particular strategy or policy. for other incubation experiments, see http://sandbox.msn.com./ enjoy!

They're even copying google's beta approach! What's next, indefinite invite-only betas?

They keep finding things, though. Here's the latest.

Amazing how NASA turned into "Paranoid Scientists Incorporated" since Columbia...

The South Korean dog meat industry reportedly involves about 1 million dogs, 6,000 restaurants, and 10 percent of the population

yes this is from 2002 but hmmmmm makes you wonder

"Any bets on when the Redmond gang will offer their Ad network?"

MSN Spaces is Microsoft's free, ad-supported blogging site. Knowing how Microsoft plays their brands, I believe that they'll continue with that tactic. They get the ad revenue, plus they drive viewers to the MSN properties.

I don't know what you're trying to say because you are wildly unclear. Nonetheless:

MSN

Google

According to an MSNBC article, the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) is now exploring the possibility of developing a manned spacecraft. The article has an artist's rendering. The picture is slick and looks like something out of "Star Trek: Enterprise".

NASA should open up the competitive bidding process to Japanese companies. If American companies cannot design a safe reusable spacecraft, then perhaps Japanese companies can.

"this site is not an officially supported site. it is an incubation experiment and doesn't represent any particular strategy or policy. for other incubation experiments, see http://sandbox.msn.com./ enjoy!"

*note* This is an INTERN project, not a strategy of microsoft's, which is why you don't see their name plastered all over the website. Get a grip guys, this is an (mostly) educational project, not to be confused with a /. punching bag.

It's OK but no matter what they did they would be hard pressed to make it this bad:

http://www.msn.com/

It features things that google successfully filtered

http://search.msn.com/images/results.aspx?FORM=IRR E&q=Abu%20Ghraib

The idea to check came from http://google-watch.org/

Using the string "Apple, Cupertino" (thinking of this story), it was interesting see what popped up (note the first result returned).

Poster is definitely trying too hard to hype up something that has apparently been sitting unnoticed for several months...

If you look at the sandbox.msn.com homepage you can see Start.com/1 was launched in March. Theres also the video!.

This is a perfect example of why Slashdot has reached new lows.

First of all, this story - though not exactly "this" story - has been on Slashdot before.

Second, let's take a moment to review the Slashdot comments with the facts.

Here's the basic timeline:

A small team at Microsoft releases http://start.com/1 March 6th, 2005. This is a first-generation web-based RSS aggregator, quite slick with AJAX.

The same team releases http://start.com/2 on April 6th, 2005. It's an interesting take on a "bookmar manager." It supports automatic importaing of IE favorites. Later, OPML support is added for other users.

Google releases their personalized home page - http://www.google.com/ig - on or just before May 22nd, 2005. The Slashdot story is here: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/23/002220 7&tid=217&tid=1

The Start team releases the third version - http://start.com/3 - on June 6th, 2005. This supports a far nicer version of the first page, although it does not incorporate the bookmark manager ideas of the second site. They tweak it weekly, sometimes daily, over the coming months (and continue to do so).

Google updated their personalized page on or just before July 26th, 2005. The Slashdot story is here: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/26/124023 2&tid=217

Now, the Start.com/3 site is being Slashdotted as a competitor to Google's Homepage. It is, naturally. However, it seems the person who submitted the document neglected to do any basic research, such as looking up the BLOG of the Start.com team: http://spaces.msn.com/members/startcom/ Now, this blog is referenced in the "Staff Picks" section of the Start.com/3 page, as well as easily located via Google.

This now means a horde of Slashdot people visit the site, and then say that MSN is "copying" Google. Now, I'm afraid that this is simply incorrect. Most likely, there is simply a convergence of ideas. "Brilliant minds think alike", so to speak. However, if you want to resort to the childish claims of "He copied me!", then I am afraid that Google is clearly copying the Start pages, down to the layout and javascript. The Start team has added features, and recently added support for OPML import of feeds. And yes, you didn't guess it, EXPORT OF FEEDS into an OPML file.

What happened to MSN's evil "stickiness" policy?!?! My god! And you can't do the same with the Google page.

I've been following the development of Start.com for quite a while - since the first intiative gained some media attention in late March/early April. Of course, the fact that it spread around the blogosphere and was nifty had nothing to do with Google releasing a version of its customized homepage in late May. Realistically, it actually DID have NOTHING to do with it, and was an element of an overall strategy. However, I'm sure - as this so plainly shows - that had Microsoft released Start.com two months after Google released their Personalized Home Page (and with less features), they'd receive a huge number of "OMG YOU TOTALLY COPIED!" comments.

I suspect I shouldn't be astonised at how Slashdot has reacted to this article. But, really, if you're going to post something - at least make sure what you post is TRUE. This PARTICULARLY applies to the Editors; explain to me why they didn't at least FACT-CHECK this article first? Isn't that supposed to be what editors DO?

The truth IS important, despite what you see on television today.

I think the disclaimer says it all:

"this site is not an officially supported site. it is an incubation experiment and doesn't represent any particular strategy or policy. for other incubation experiments, see http://sandbox.msn.com./ enjoy!"

Now that I actually perused the material that was returned by the URL at msn search:

http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?FORM=START3&src h_type=0&q=what+is+this+shit%3F

I must say: I.am.shocked. But, not quite amazed or aghast.

So much for a ms being a family-values company, or did I imagine they claimed to have such values?

is there...
(What the HELL is this:
"Your comment has too few characters per line (currently 22.8).)"
What a lame lameness filter... for text?
"Your comment has too few characters per line (currently 22.0)." (must be the clarity/separation dashes...)
sheesh!!!
Let's see:
http://www.start.com/
just returns a blank, bannerless page, having the words "start" in white, each letter surrounded by a colord disk, followed by same-colored ellipsis
====

http://www.start.com/1

"©2005 Microsoft Corp - Feedback - This site is not an officially supported site. It is an incubation experiment and doesn't represent any particular strategy or policy. For other incubation experiments, see http://sandbox.msn.com./ Enjoy!"
=============
Hmmm, let's try
http://www.start.com/2
We get:
http://www.start.com/2/default.aspx
which produces:
"Add my IE favorites to this page
Import OPML
Show removed items
Favelet:Add to Start
Loading...
©2005 Microsoft Corp - Feedback - This site is not an officially supported site. It is an incubation experiment and doesn't represent any particular strategy or policy. For other incubation experiments, see http://sandbox.msn.com./ Enjoy!"
=============
http://www.start.com/4
"The page cannot be found
The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable."
===========
Hmm, while I don't give a rat for ms, the grandparent's reference doesn't immediately jump out as:
"the layout and use of javascript is strikingly similar to Google's. Second, one of the few major differences is that there is no MS equivalent banner or other flashing indication that it is an MS site.""
Well, if one goes and plays numbers on the location bar, different things tend to pop up.
As for the original URL in the byline, I typed into the search box:
"what is this shit?"
and out popped to the URL/location bar:
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?FORM=START3&src h_type=0&q=what+is+this+shit%3F
sigh....
----
Isn't ms getting stale by the day? But, I guess I wasted about 10 minutes adding my 40 cents worth of time. (Yep, added
and changed to HTML Formatted and the lame anti-lameness message went away...a 40-second check)

is there...
(What the HELL is this:
"Your comment has too few characters per line (currently 22.8).)"
What a lame lameness filter... for text?
"Your comment has too few characters per line (currently 22.0)." (must be the clarity/separation dashes...)
sheesh!!!
Let's see:
http://www.start.com/
just returns a blank, bannerless page, having the words "start" in white, each letter surrounded by a colord disk, followed by same-colored ellipsis
====

http://www.start.com/1

"©2005 Microsoft Corp - Feedback - This site is not an officially supported site. It is an incubation experiment and doesn't represent any particular strategy or policy. For other incubation experiments, see http://sandbox.msn.com./ Enjoy!"
=============
Hmmm, let's try
http://www.start.com/2
We get:
http://www.start.com/2/default.aspx
which produces:
"Add my IE favorites to this page
Import OPML
Show removed items
Favelet:Add to Start
Loading...
©2005 Microsoft Corp - Feedback - This site is not an officially supported site. It is an incubation experiment and doesn't represent any particular strategy or policy. For other incubation experiments, see http://sandbox.msn.com./ Enjoy!"
=============
http://www.start.com/4
"The page cannot be found
The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable."
===========
Hmm, while I don't give a rat for ms, the grandparent's reference doesn't immediately jump out as:
"the layout and use of javascript is strikingly similar to Google's. Second, one of the few major differences is that there is no MS equivalent banner or other flashing indication that it is an MS site.""
Well, if one goes and plays numbers on the location bar, different things tend to pop up.
As for the original URL in the byline, I typed into the search box:
"what is this shit?"
and out popped to the URL/location bar:
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?FORM=START3&src h_type=0&q=what+is+this+shit%3F
sigh....
----
Isn't ms getting stale by the day? But, I guess I wasted about 10 minutes adding my 40 cents worth of time. (Yep, added
and changed to HTML Formatted and the lame anti-lameness message went away...a 40-second check)

is there...
(What the HELL is this:
"Your comment has too few characters per line (currently 22.8).)"
What a lame lameness filter... for text?
"Your comment has too few characters per line (currently 22.0)." (must be the clarity/separation dashes...)
sheesh!!!
Let's see:
http://www.start.com/
just returns a blank, bannerless page, having the words "start" in white, each letter surrounded by a colord disk, followed by same-colored ellipsis
====

http://www.start.com/1

"©2005 Microsoft Corp - Feedback - This site is not an officially supported site. It is an incubation experiment and doesn't represent any particular strategy or policy. For other incubation experiments, see http://sandbox.msn.com./ Enjoy!"
=============
Hmmm, let's try
http://www.start.com/2
We get:
http://www.start.com/2/default.aspx
which produces:
"Add my IE favorites to this page
Import OPML
Show removed items
Favelet:Add to Start
Loading...
©2005 Microsoft Corp - Feedback - This site is not an officially supported site. It is an incubation experiment and doesn't represent any particular strategy or policy. For other incubation experiments, see http://sandbox.msn.com./ Enjoy!"
=============
http://www.start.com/4
"The page cannot be found
The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable."
===========
Hmm, while I don't give a rat for ms, the grandparent's reference doesn't immediately jump out as:
"the layout and use of javascript is strikingly similar to Google's. Second, one of the few major differences is that there is no MS equivalent banner or other flashing indication that it is an MS site.""
Well, if one goes and plays numbers on the location bar, different things tend to pop up.
As for the original URL in the byline, I typed into the search box:
"what is this shit?"
and out popped to the URL/location bar:
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?FORM=START3&src h_type=0&q=what+is+this+shit%3F
sigh....
----
Isn't ms getting stale by the day? But, I guess I wasted about 10 minutes adding my 40 cents worth of time. (Yep, added
and changed to HTML Formatted and the lame anti-lameness message went away...a 40-second check)

...this "Rival to Google's Start page" (the first version, anyway) has been around longer. Compare the release dates, and remember that My Yahoo!, while not as easy to customize (you can't move sections by dragging), is far older than both.

Right - the start.com blog (http://spaces.msn.com/members/startcom/) says that start.com/1 launched in March.

That's because the marketing crew hasn't gotten ahold of this service yet. Wait till it gets filtered through the entire MS camp and then we will see where that current minimalistic approach goes.

Like what they did to the MSN Search page? Oh, wait, that's still very minimalist ...

I'm assuming you're referring to pages like the MSN home page, which is a portal like Yahoo (equally full of crap), and not a minimalist entry page designed around searching like Google. That's not to say that Google doesn't have their own share of pages that are full of crap. They just have a slightly different approach to their main entry page.

IMHO, the MSN.com page should be replaced with the MSN Search page and move the main page over to a "News" tab or something, but I doubt it'll ever happen.

That's because the marketing crew hasn't gotten ahold of this service yet. Wait till it gets filtered through the entire MS camp and then we will see where that current minimalistic approach goes.

Like what they did to the MSN Search page? Oh, wait, that's still very minimalist ...

I'm assuming you're referring to pages like the MSN home page, which is a portal like Yahoo (equally full of crap), and not a minimalist entry page designed around searching like Google. That's not to say that Google doesn't have their own share of pages that are full of crap. They just have a slightly different approach to their main entry page.

IMHO, the MSN.com page should be replaced with the MSN Search page and move the main page over to a "News" tab or something, but I doubt it'll ever happen.

I see no difficulty in relating it to MS. In the lower part, its pretty obvious it is related to MS. It says:

this site is not an officially supported site. it is an incubation experiment and doesn't represent any particular strategy or policy. for other incubation experiments, see http://sandbox.msn.com./ enjoy!

This is another idea. MS has it own personalized startup page within MSN. This start page is very, very interesting way of browsing multiple RSS feeds quickly. Shame that, at the moment, it doesnt log your user session, so you cannot save your settings, but for me, regardless it is MS, it is beautifully done and well thought.

Start.com was well under way before Google's personalized home page was released. Google's Personalized Page was released in May, but Start.com was up in March. See this post from March 20th by one of the developers.

http://spaces.msn.com/members/steverider/Blog/cns! 1pk-KGuQJt62IHSwXT8uY1HQ!378.entry

Also, Bloglines Citations of Start.com dating back to March 9th or so

http://www.bloglines.com/citations?url=http://www. start.com

And technorati of course:

http://www.technorati.com/search/start.com/1/?star t=140

http://moneycentral.msn.com/detail/stock_quote?Sym bol=GOOG Coincidence? I think not.

http://www.start.com/1/ and http://www.start.com/2/ have been out long before Google's homepage (evidence: http://spaces.msn.com/members/startcom/). I would argue that Google is doing the copying here. Google admits that theirs came out in May (http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2005/07/more-of-wh at-i-want.html).

For a video to see two of only three people who work on start.com, you can go here: http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=9022 9

Yes, Microsoft has only two developers on this project.

changing the 3 to a 2 in the url (http://www.start.com/2/default.aspx) shows another version of the page that looks strikingly similar to the google personalized homepage... including adding IE favorites to the page, as well as other "incubation experiments" i.e. Google Lab(ish), see http://sandbox.msn.com/.

This is very slick. I like the minimalist approach they took with this slick page over the cluttered layout of this page. Maybe not working on Safari is a "feature."

I saw that too -- then I realized I had Javascript blocker on. Once I temporarily allowed JS on the page, I saw more of the layout. Not that it's anything to write home about, and http://sandbox.msn.com/ says it's been accessible since June 3...

fyi...this page has existed for several years

If by "years" you mean "weeks", then sure.

The start.com guys are doing some neat stuff, not just with the pages they're building but also with their development methods (neat for a huge corporation like MSFT, anyway). They've only been doing the start.com thing for a few months now, not years.

fyi...this page has existed for several years

If by "years" you mean "weeks", then sure.

The start.com guys are doing some neat stuff, not just with the pages they're building but also with their development methods (neat for a huge corporation like MSFT, anyway). They've only been doing the start.com thing for a few months now, not years.

A couple of years ago was the last one. Rather than just compare the stock price, be sure to look at the total number of outstanding shares for each and their corresponding total Market capitalization.

Quoting from:

Google
Market Cap. 83.11 Bil
Tot. Shares Out. 277.8 Mil

Microsoft
Market Cap. 287.1 Bil
Tot. Shares Out. 10.71 Bil

So from that we end up with Microsoft being worth about ~3.4 as much as Google.

With a little more math we predict that if Google had as many outstanding shares as Microsoft, each share would be worth only ~$7.76 a piece. Of course, this is ignoring the fact that many predict a Google crash due to the apparent overvaluation of their stock.

A couple of years ago was the last one. Rather than just compare the stock price, be sure to look at the total number of outstanding shares for each and their corresponding total Market capitalization.

Quoting from:

Google
Market Cap. 83.11 Bil
Tot. Shares Out. 277.8 Mil

Microsoft
Market Cap. 287.1 Bil
Tot. Shares Out. 10.71 Bil

So from that we end up with Microsoft being worth about ~3.4 as much as Google.

With a little more math we predict that if Google had as many outstanding shares as Microsoft, each share would be worth only ~$7.76 a piece. Of course, this is ignoring the fact that many predict a Google crash due to the apparent overvaluation of their stock.

Note their order, alphabetical. And this site has been up for some time now. See this

this site is not an officially supported site. it is an incubation experiment and doesn't represent any particular strategy or policy. for other incubation experiments, see http://sandbox.msn.com./ enjoy!

Lets not jump the gun just yet..though I must say this is pretty crappy.

Since you obviously have information not available to anyone else about whether or not a crime was committed.

Considering that Plame was last overseas undercover in 1997 and the name became public in 2003 (and it may very well not have been leaked considering Joe Wilson's wife is listed in "Who's Who"...), it would be a bit hard to break a law with a five-year limit, now wouldn't it?

You need to read Plame's Lame Game and A Nutty Little Law.

Some excerpts:

Two recent reports allow us to revisit one of the great non-stories, and one of the great missed stories, of the Iraq war argument. The non-story is the alleged martyrdom of Mr. and Mrs. Joseph Wilson, supposed by many to have suffered cruel exposure for their commitment to the truth. The missed story is the increasing evidence that Niger, in West Africa, was indeed the locus of an illegal trade in uranium ore for rogue states including Iraq.

and

The Intelligence Identities Protection Act, notionally violated by this disclosure, is a ridiculous piece of legislation to begin with. It relies in practice on a high standard of proof, effectively requiring that the government demonstrate that someone knowingly intended to divulge the identity of an American secret agent operating under cover, with the intention of harming that agent.

Note that under the law in question, for a crime to have been committed - even if the five-year limitation weren't exceeded - the leaker would have to knowingly leak the information with the purpose of causing harm to the agent. Simply leaking the name to providie proof positive that her husband is a liar wouldn't make the leak a crime.

Get over your hatred of all things Bush. It makes uou sound like a paranoid twit.